[LINK] Women opting out of Australian IT industry

[Karl Schaffarczyk]

To the linkers who are sick of this thread, my apologies. I am attempting 
logic and reason with one Adam Todd, who claims that women don't have 
sound reasoning, and that women have brains that shrink which causes them 
all sorts of problems, including dropping out of IT courses.

>>I can only hope that these quotes represent a feeble effort on the part of
>>your pinhead brain to make a 'joke', because anyone who seriously
>>advocated ideas of this nature could be classified as an utter bigot. It's
>>akin to saying 'Sure I know that women are inferior, but we don't have to
>>make them feel bad about it! Go grrl!!'
>
><shakes head>  I'm trying to work out where *I* said that females were 
>inferior.  I must have missed something.

trying to work out where you said females were inferior?? you never 
_*said*_ that, you just insulted them all they way, and implied that they 
were inferior.

may i refresh your memory:


from http://www.anu.edu.au/mail-archives/link/link0006/0488.html
"Men normally have a logical mind frame. Women tend to have a more 
illogical mind frame. (Might have something to do with brain shrinkage 
from 
pregnancy??)"

your statement says that women are illogical. Lets define illogical:

from the wordsmith http://www.wordsmith.org/
1 definition found

Illogical \Il*log"ic*al\, a.
   Ignorant or negligent of the rules of logic or correct
   reasoning; as, an illogical disputant; contrary of the rules
   of logic or sound reasoning; as, an illogical inference. --
   {Il*log"ic*al*ly}, adv. -- {Il*log"ic*al*ness}, n.

So you have now said that women aren't capable of sound reasoning or they 
don't choose to reason soundly.

I'd be pretty insulted if you said that I was illogical.



further from http://www.anu.edu.au/mail-archives/link/link0006/0488.html

"... get down to the pub for a 
beer.) Where as a Women tends to be more interested in the development 
and 
nurturing of the business to see it reach it's full potential and at the 
end of the day put her feet up and relax."

women interested in the development and nuturing? like a baby? women 
should be given the cuddly jobs like bringing up children, and when she 
doesn't have children, she should be working hard to bring up a business, 
and see it grow into a fully grown business, when no doubt as soon as it 
gets to that point she'll have to hand over the reins to a man such as 
yourself, who is more concerned with downing a pint at the pub?

put her feet up and relax, at home maybe? instead of enjoying her social 
life? or maybe you really mean, come home and cook for you, aching feet 
never having a break?

>
>>There are plenty of reasons why women find it hard to integrate into IT
>>courses. It is a field that historically has been held by men.
>
>Gee and the same could be said for Men in Nursing.  But because Men don't 
>drop out does that make them superior?  I hope your not saying this?

no - women don't drop out because they are inferior in any way apart from 
maybe physical strength.
A woman amongst 200 men is far more likely to feel intimidated than a man 
amongst 200 women. As a general rule of thumb, adult men don't get raped, 
adult men aren't bothered by sexual harassment. (before you get stuck 
into this, yes, individual cases do happen. I said 'general rule of 
thumb') 
>
>>The first interlopers into fields held by the opposite sex always have it 
>>hard, but this is something we can expect to change after time.
>
>So did women in the 50's when they started in the office.  But then Women 
>have always been in the office.  Find me a PA that doesn't actually RUN the 
>business why the BOSS is out chatting, lunching and dining.

That's the job of a PA. to run the business, the head of any organisation 
needs to keep in touch with the outside world, do deals etc, the next in 
line (often a PA) hands out the orders to the Boss' underlings, and keeps 
the small details in order.
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GENDER OF THE PEOPLE INVOLVED. I HAVE 
BEEN IN A SITUATION WHERE THE BOSS WAS A WOMAN WHO WAS ALWAYS OUT 
CHATTING LUNCHING AND DINING, AND HER *MALE* PA WAS RUNNING THE SHOW. I 
REPEAT THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GENDER OF THE PEOPLE INVOLVED. 

>Even my FEMALE PA from the 80's was more in touch with the company that I 
>was!  And she was a kid!  Brilliant at that - and exactly why she was my PA.

see above.
>
>>The field has been grown and nurtured by men.
>
>Strangely true.  But it's not due to skills.  At least from my view.

[adam todd style retort] so you're saying women don't have skills now?


[snip the bleeding obvious about loud car stereos etc]
>
>Yes, typical Male Chest beating.  Women tend to be more subtle, silent, 
>slinky, sleek and sly.

hmm.. combine the above line with:
"Managing a bunch of men is easy, especially with a little sex appeal :) "

seems like you consider women as sex objects, who should be seen and not 
heard, and that women only have any control in an organisation becuase of 
their sex appeal. and you somehow think you are showing your respect for 
women.

[snip more about ATs wife]

[snip even more about ATs wife teaching alongside an unqualified teacher]
>
>So the Male species of that "ego" based mind set lost out to the female 
>teacher and the kids who would rather have a female teaching them IT, than 
>a Male saying how good he is over the kids who are trying to learn.

no these kid most likely wanted a teacher that knew what s/he was on 
about. I've seen teachers and lecturers who had a clue and those who 
don't in a wide range of subjects including IT.

none of this has anything to do with gender.

>>Note that this kind of culture probably permeates the lower
>>(Read: younger) ranks of the IT industry more than anywhere else.
>
>I don't know.  I've employed a few young ins - pre University - and they 
>are very good and accepting.  I find most graduates from almost any 
>University course are very "I'm King, your a dropout I'll walk all over you."

no they probably are saying "I'm human, you're a dropkick and I'll walk 
all over your rock which you live under."

>People use to go to Uni to learn and develop, now days they seem to go 
>because they can get Austudy, living away from home allowance, discount 
>tickets to McDonalds and the Movies, free Internet and easier access to 
>casual sex.
>
>I might be wrong ... but ...

as far as i can tell, your assertion is back to front. Universities 
generally no longer have free open slather net access, HECs is expensive, 
Austudy harder to obtain, and casual sex is probably just as easy at a 
nightclub. If you actually want a discount to McDonalds, there must be 
something wrong with you. Cheaper movies can be obtained by going to 
virtually any small locally owned cinema.
>
>>As for Adam's pitiful assertion that women have illogical brains ... just
>>take a look at the number of women enrolled in the sciences.
>
>Since when does Science and logic equate to the same.  You also missed the 
[snip more irrelevant stuff about ATs wife - AGAIN]

rubbish!! Science is generally based on logic. as is IT. as is History. 
as is ........
>
>>Advanced Molecular Cell Biology does not, somehow, strike me as 
>>'illogical' and 'emotional'.
>
>Actually, it probably is more emotional than you realise. Seems the mere 
>male would rather spend his time studying the molecular cells of beer than 
>far more intimate aspects.  Probably explains why *I* feel women make 
>better Doctors.

Adam, in your paranoia it would appear that you feel women make better 
doctors, because the male ones have a beer in their bottom drawer.

Both women and men make very good doctors, and it has *VERY* little to do 
with gender.

[snip meathead in a courtroom scene]


Why not just admit you are a chauvinist misogynist bigot, apologise to 
the people who you have insulted on this list, and get back to your life 
pumping ill-informed crap to every mailing list that exists!

damn! you are already doing that!

better still, why not go for a walk in the sunshine, rather than having 
every second post to a mailing list have your name on it? surely you have 
a lawn that needs mowing? dishes that need washing? males friends to go 
down the pub with as you keep saying males do. That's a good one - Adam, 
go down to the pub and study a beer!

Karl


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