[LINK] Women opting out of Australian IT industry

[Adam Todd]

At 11:51 26/06/00 +1000, you wrote:
>To the linkers who are sick of this thread, my apologies. I am attempting
>logic and reason with one Adam Todd, who claims that women don't have
>sound reasoning,

I never claimed "women don't have sound reasoning."

I have to admit, it's fun watching how people interpret something with 
their own personifications.

>and that women have brains that shrink which causes them

Nope, I didn't say that either.  I said it's claimed that during pregnancy 
the female brain shrinks.  My wife uses it as an excuse all the time, so do 
quite a few others.  It's been scientifically proven, was even covered in 
detail in some program late last year or early this year.  I forget the 
reason behind it, but it made sense.

>all sorts of problems, including dropping out of IT courses.

I certainly didn't make that claim.


> ><shakes head>  I'm trying to work out where *I* said that females were
> >inferior.  I must have missed something.
>
>trying to work out where you said females were inferior?? you never
>_*said*_ that,

Oh, right.  So another persons (note it was male, that's three now!) 
interpretation.

>you just insulted them all they way, and implied that they were inferior.

No I didn't. I never used the word inferior against women.

Case of transference perhaps?

I indicated in most affect that the male is inferior due to his more 
mechanical and logical approach to life and all things he does.  That the 
male often tends to be a poor business manager, less able to juggle 
multiple skills at the same time.

I sit in the office working on four or five things at a time, my wife is 
amazed at how I manage to do all of this, like a phone call, writing email 
and designing something, plus watching a log file.  She says she is single 
tasking, not capable of doing two things at once.

She hasn't watched herself.  Perhaps the things I do in multiple task are 
more logical and technical (technology speaking anyway.)

But she can't claim she isn't capable of multitasking.

Breast feeding one child, watching the other in the lounge room, whilst 
eating Cheesecake and planning dinner, cleaning the room.

What about the kitchen?

Washing dishes, (even clothes in the laundry I can hear going at the same 
time!) preparing food for lunch, dinner, making bread, watching a 3 month 
old, talking to the 2 year old,.

All pretty challenging if you ask me.  I have a terrible time looking after 
the two kids at the same time.  I seem to lack the skill of juggling a baby 
and chasing a 2 year old.

Probably because BOTH demand a huge amount of direct attention. Yet she 
does it with what appears to be skilled ease.

Now she manages my time and tasks.  That's been hugely beneficial because I 
get a lot more done when I'm focused.  I can't with my current activity 
range and list actually focus on the tasks and get distracted easily.  A 
Male Business Manager would not, from my past experience, be able to 
sustain the task either.

So, no.  I did not claim women were inferior.

I claimed women have different skills and abilities that are native to 
their evolutionary development.  I even specified I was generlising and it 
didn't apply to ALL women (or men.)

Characteristics and skills can be learnt and changed.  It's a shame that 
the entire start of this thread was exactly what I have proven:  That Men 
are too eager to tell women what to do, but not give them the scope to do it.

It's no surprise so many women are, as one writer claimed, intimidated by 
males in the IT field.  When the twonks stop comparing the women to 
themselves, which will probably never happen because most women are just 
plain damn attractive (often intellectually if not only physically,) then 
we might get an even footing and scope.

Boys clubs are a thing of the past.  I don't accept them and I do NOT allow 
a person to be judged entirely on Gender.

Now go and work that out :)
















>may i refresh your memory:
>
>
>from http://www.anu.edu.au/mail-archives/link/link0006/0488.html
>"Men normally have a logical mind frame. Women tend to have a more
>illogical mind frame. (Might have something to do with brain shrinkage
>from
>pregnancy??)"
>
>your statement says that women are illogical. Lets define illogical:
>
>from the wordsmith http://www.wordsmith.org/
>1 definition found
>
>Illogical \Il*log"ic*al\, a.
>    Ignorant or negligent of the rules of logic or correct
>    reasoning; as, an illogical disputant; contrary of the rules
>    of logic or sound reasoning; as, an illogical inference. --
>    {Il*log"ic*al*ly}, adv. -- {Il*log"ic*al*ness}, n.
>
>So you have now said that women aren't capable of sound reasoning or they
>don't choose to reason soundly.
>
>I'd be pretty insulted if you said that I was illogical.
>
>
>
>further from http://www.anu.edu.au/mail-archives/link/link0006/0488.html
>
>"... get down to the pub for a
>beer.) Where as a Women tends to be more interested in the development
>and
>nurturing of the business to see it reach it's full potential and at the
>end of the day put her feet up and relax."
>
>women interested in the development and nuturing? like a baby? women
>should be given the cuddly jobs like bringing up children, and when she
>doesn't have children, she should be working hard to bring up a business,
>and see it grow into a fully grown business, when no doubt as soon as it
>gets to that point she'll have to hand over the reins to a man such as
>yourself, who is more concerned with downing a pint at the pub?
>
>put her feet up and relax, at home maybe? instead of enjoying her social
>life? or maybe you really mean, come home and cook for you, aching feet
>never having a break?
>
> >
> >>There are plenty of reasons why women find it hard to integrate into IT
> >>courses. It is a field that historically has been held by men.
> >
> >Gee and the same could be said for Men in Nursing.  But because Men don't
> >drop out does that make them superior?  I hope your not saying this?
>
>no - women don't drop out because they are inferior in any way apart from
>maybe physical strength.
>A woman amongst 200 men is far more likely to feel intimidated than a man
>amongst 200 women. As a general rule of thumb, adult men don't get raped,
>adult men aren't bothered by sexual harassment. (before you get stuck
>into this, yes, individual cases do happen. I said 'general rule of
>thumb')
> >
> >>The first interlopers into fields held by the opposite sex always have it
> >>hard, but this is something we can expect to change after time.
> >
> >So did women in the 50's when they started in the office.  But then Women
> >have always been in the office.  Find me a PA that doesn't actually RUN the
> >business why the BOSS is out chatting, lunching and dining.
>
>That's the job of a PA. to run the business, the head of any organisation
>needs to keep in touch with the outside world, do deals etc, the next in
>line (often a PA) hands out the orders to the Boss' underlings, and keeps
>the small details in order.
>THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GENDER OF THE PEOPLE INVOLVED. I HAVE
>BEEN IN A SITUATION WHERE THE BOSS WAS A WOMAN WHO WAS ALWAYS OUT
>CHATTING LUNCHING AND DINING, AND HER *MALE* PA WAS RUNNING THE SHOW. I
>REPEAT THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GENDER OF THE PEOPLE INVOLVED.
>
> >Even my FEMALE PA from the 80's was more in touch with the company that I
> >was!  And she was a kid!  Brilliant at that - and exactly why she was my PA.
>
>see above.
> >
> >>The field has been grown and nurtured by men.
> >
> >Strangely true.  But it's not due to skills.  At least from my view.
>
>[adam todd style retort] so you're saying women don't have skills now?
>
>
>[snip the bleeding obvious about loud car stereos etc]
> >
> >Yes, typical Male Chest beating.  Women tend to be more subtle, silent,
> >slinky, sleek and sly.
>
>hmm.. combine the above line with:
>"Managing a bunch of men is easy, especially with a little sex appeal :) "
>
>seems like you consider women as sex objects, who should be seen and not
>heard, and that women only have any control in an organisation becuase of
>their sex appeal. and you somehow think you are showing your respect for
>women.
>
>[snip more about ATs wife]
>
>[snip even more about ATs wife teaching alongside an unqualified teacher]
> >
> >So the Male species of that "ego" based mind set lost out to the female
> >teacher and the kids who would rather have a female teaching them IT, than
> >a Male saying how good he is over the kids who are trying to learn.
>
>no these kid most likely wanted a teacher that knew what s/he was on
>about. I've seen teachers and lecturers who had a clue and those who
>don't in a wide range of subjects including IT.
>
>none of this has anything to do with gender.
>
> >>Note that this kind of culture probably permeates the lower
> >>(Read: younger) ranks of the IT industry more than anywhere else.
> >
> >I don't know.  I've employed a few young ins - pre University - and they
> >are very good and accepting.  I find most graduates from almost any
> >University course are very "I'm King, your a dropout I'll walk all over 
> you."
>
>no they probably are saying "I'm human, you're a dropkick and I'll walk
>all over your rock which you live under."
>
> >People use to go to Uni to learn and develop, now days they seem to go
> >because they can get Austudy, living away from home allowance, discount
> >tickets to McDonalds and the Movies, free Internet and easier access to
> >casual sex.
> >
> >I might be wrong ... but ...
>
>as far as i can tell, your assertion is back to front. Universities
>generally no longer have free open slather net access, HECs is expensive,
>Austudy harder to obtain, and casual sex is probably just as easy at a
>nightclub. If you actually want a discount to McDonalds, there must be
>something wrong with you. Cheaper movies can be obtained by going to
>virtually any small locally owned cinema.
> >
> >>As for Adam's pitiful assertion that women have illogical brains ... just
> >>take a look at the number of women enrolled in the sciences.
> >
> >Since when does Science and logic equate to the same.  You also missed the
>[snip more irrelevant stuff about ATs wife - AGAIN]
>
>rubbish!! Science is generally based on logic. as is IT. as is History.
>as is ........
> >
> >>Advanced Molecular Cell Biology does not, somehow, strike me as
> >>'illogical' and 'emotional'.
> >
> >Actually, it probably is more emotional than you realise. Seems the mere
> >male would rather spend his time studying the molecular cells of beer than
> >far more intimate aspects.  Probably explains why *I* feel women make
> >better Doctors.
>
>Adam, in your paranoia it would appear that you feel women make better
>doctors, because the male ones have a beer in their bottom drawer.
>
>Both women and men make very good doctors, and it has *VERY* little to do
>with gender.
>
>[snip meathead in a courtroom scene]
>
>
>Why not just admit you are a chauvinist misogynist bigot, apologise to
>the people who you have insulted on this list, and get back to your life
>pumping ill-informed crap to every mailing list that exists!
>
>damn! you are already doing that!
>
>better still, why not go for a walk in the sunshine, rather than having
>every second post to a mailing list have your name on it? surely you have
>a lawn that needs mowing? dishes that need washing? males friends to go
>down the pub with as you keep saying males do. That's a good one - Adam,
>go down to the pub and study a beer!
>
>Karl
>
>
>--
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