From marghanita@ramin.com.au  Fri Sep 20 01:29:23 2002
From: marghanita@ramin.com.au (M. da Cruz)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:29:23 +1000
Subject: [LINK] Re: Miserly Telstra eyes Sun's  cheap desktop suite
References: <200208192346.g7JNjxJ24757@bree.inside.interweft.com.au>
Message-ID: <3D8A79F1.42BB@ramin.com.au>

There's also a pretty compelling business cased for a large enterprise
such as Telstra to standardise to RTF - internally and externally - this
would reduce storage (and bandwidth) requirements, ensure legibility of
archived documents and influence both their customers and suppliers -
this could be one of the most significant e-commerce initiatives in
Australia...

However, such a task isn't trivial. In a time past, I had the
responsibility of selecting the WP package across an enterprise's
desktops. At the time the Vax based All-in-1 (incorporating Email,
Directory, WP, Document Management) was the standard with PCs & Macs
running terminal emulation. With hindsight my decision to go with
MSOffice has been vindicated - however, the choice was on the basis that
compared to Wordperfect, AIME(?) and probably a couple of others it was
the only package, with which, I could create a document and save it
without reading the manual and it was also available on Apple Macs.
There was a lot of discussion about the additional features available in
other packages but my view was that most people would never use these...
anyway. There ofcourse was still the requirement for compatibility with
other users and integration with email - oh how things have changed. 

Marghanita

hartr@interweft.com.au wrote:
<snip>
> Telstra is a sufficiently large organisation that it could very easily
> specify an intermediate standard such as RTF in terms of its external
> communication from its business partners. Most (all?) business partners
> would jump through that hoop to win Telstra business!
<snip>
-- 
Marghanita da Cruz 
mailto:marghanita@ramin.com.au
http://www.ramin.com.au - Tel:(+61)0414-869202
Ramin Communications - ABN 27 089 713 084


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From me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au  Sun Sep  1 10:14:28 2002
From: me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au (Tony Barry)
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 20:14:28 +1000
Subject: [LINK] NOIE update  20 August 2002
Message-ID: <a05100309b9979901463a@[10.0.1.202]>

---------------------------------------------------------------------
NOIE UPDATE - 20 AUGUST 2002
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Keeping you up to date with the latest information about the
National Office for the Information Economy on http://www.noie.gov.au
and associated NOIE sites.

You have received this email because you signed up on the NOIE web site
to receive this newsletter.

To Subscribe or Unsubscribe to this service visit:

http://www.noie.gov.au/admin/subscribe/subscribe.htm

To contact the list administrator
email: info@noie.gov.au

TIP: Sometimes URLs in this newsletter will wrap across two lines and
not work when clicked on. To make these URL's work you may need to
copy and paste both sections of the URL into your web browser.

-------------------------------------------------------
NEW ON THE NOIE WEB SITE(S)
-------------------------------------------------------

1. Current NOIE consultations

To facilitate public input into the decision making processes of NOIE
a 'Currently Consulting on...' area has been created on the NOIE web
site.

Current consultations include:

- Spam Review Interim Report - Draft Recomendations

More info:
http://www.noie.gov.au/projects/consult/consult.htm

_____________________________

2. New discussion papers on Broadband in Education and Health.

NOIE has released two discussion papers "Broadband in Education:
Availability, Initiatives and Issues" and "Broadband in Health:
Drivers, Impediments and Benefits" for the second meeting of the
Broadband Advisory Group (BAG), to provide a basis for discussion
of the issues involved in the use of broadband in education and
health.

More info on BAG:
http://www.noie.gov.au/Projects/consult/BAG/index.htm

Broadband in Education discussion paper (PDF 300k):
http://www.noie.gov.au/publications/NOIE/BAG/Broadband_in_educ_Final.PDF

Broadband in Health discussion paper (PDF 300k):
http://www.noie.gov.au/publications/NOIE/BAG/Broadband_inHealth_final.PDF

_____________________________

3. July 2002 E-procurement Update newsletter released

The July 2002 NOIE eProcurement Update newsletter has been released.
eProcurement Update is an online bulletin published each month by NOIE
highlighting new approaches and developments in government eProcurement,
implementation of eProcurement solutions and case studies.

This newsletter is available as a email newsletter and also as a web
page.

Browse the newsletter at:
http://www.govonline.gov.au/projects/eprocurement/newsletter

Newsletter subscription page:
http://www.noie.gov.au/admin/subscribe/subscribe.htm

_____________________________

4. Digital Divide Cross Sector Working Group.

NOIE is participating in a Digital Divide Cross Sector Working Group.
The Group is aiming to foster greater collaboration and shared
learning around Digital Divide projects in Australia and is now
seeking digital divide projects.

More info:
http://www.noie.gov.au/Projects/access/community/digitaldivide

_____________________________

5. New service for managing .gov.au domain names.

There have recently been a number of changes in the management of
the .au domain space.  As a result of these changes the
registration and registry services previously provided by AUNIC
will no longer apply to the .gov.au domain.  NOIE has developed
a new web-based registration service to assist those applying for
or managing .gov.au domains. This service is now live.

New .gov.au domain management site:
http://www.domainname.gov.au

-------------------------------------------------------
RECENT MEDIA RELEASES
-------------------------------------------------------

1. 'Broadband for small business' guide released.

The Minister for Communications, Information Technology and the
Arts, Senator Richard Alston, welcomed the release of the
NOIE "Broadband for Small Business" guide. 7/8/02

"Broadband for Small Business" is an easy to read guide explaining
technical information and the commercial opportunities generated
by fast, always on, broadband access.

More info:
http://www.noie.gov.au/publications/media_releases/2002/Jul2002/trust.htm

Broadband for Small Business guide (HTML):
http://www.noie.gov.au/publications/NOIE/eBusiness/Broadband/index.htm

Broadband for Small Business guide (PDF - 140k):
http://www.noie.gov.au/publications/NOIE/eBusiness/Broadband/Broadband.pdf

______________________________

2. Call for public comment on Interim Spam Report.

The Minister for Communications, Information Technology and the
Arts, Senator Richard Alston, has called for public comment on
the Interim Report of the NOIE Spam Review, "The Spam Problem and
How it Can be Countered". 1/8/02

The report proposes a number of recommendations to deal with
electronic junk mail, commonly known as spam.

Public comments are specifically sought on the proposed:
- development of a widely accepted working definition of spam; and
- the new legislative options canvassed in the report.

NOIE will be accepting comments until Friday, 13 September 2002.

More info:
http://www.noie.gov.au/publications/media_releases/2002/Aug2002/spam.htm

Interim Spam Report:
http://www.noie.gov.au/spam/interimreport.

Consultation page:
http://www.noie.gov.au/projects/consult/consult.htm

-------------------------------------------------------
OTHER NEWS
-------------------------------------------------------

1. OECD releases Information Security Guidelines

The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD),
of which Australia is a member, has released a new set of
Information Security Guidelines to act as an important policy
framework for the formation of e-security policies and
practices for both private and public sectors within the OECD.
12/8/02

More info on OECD guidelines:
http://www.oecd.org/EN/document/0,,EN-document-43-1-no-24-33185-0,00.html

Summary of guidelines (PDF 57k):
http://www.noie.gov.au/Projects/information_economy/e-security/OECDPress_R
elease2.pdf

______________________________

2. Current NOIE tenders.

Find out about currently open NOIE tenders at the NOIE Tenders page.
Current tenders include:

- Expression of Interest for the Design of an eBusiness Pathways
   Guide (NCON/02/25)

More info:
http://www.noie.gov.au/admin/tenders.htm

______________________________

3. NOIE mailing lists.

NOIE has a range of mailing lists available to keep you up to date with
developments across a various NOIE areas of activity. Aside from "NOIE
Update" other NOIE newsletters include:

- ITOL News (periodic)- Keep informed of applications and progress for
   the Information Technology Online program.

- eProcurement Update (monthly) - Stay up to date with all the latest
   developments in the eProcurement arena.

- Authentication (periodic)- NOIE authentication newsletter.

Subscribe to these at:
http://www.noie.gov.au/admin/subscribe/subscribe.htm

______________________________

4. NOIE Government Online seminar program

Back by popular demand are a series of free half day seminars organised
by NOIE in Canberra which cover key aspects of the use of new technologies
in Government. The seminars often feature agency case studies, and are a
great way to hear about how other organisations may have tackled similar
problems to those facing your organisation.

In 2002 NOIE will also be organising a range of other events for
government agencies, including practitioner workshops on a range of
topics. For managers with experience in particular aspects of the use
of new technologies, these informal workshops provide the opportunity
to share information about how these issues are managed in various
organisations.

Upcoming events:

Executive Breakfast Briefing:

7.00 - 8.30 am, Wednesday 18 September 2002, Rydges Lakeside
Featuring : John Rimmer, CEO, NOIE
Title:      e-Government ñ Better Government

More info:
http://www.govonline.gov.au/projects/strategy/seminars/register.htm

______________________________

5. Interact Multimedia Festival, Victoria, 2- 15 September 2002

NOIE is a Festival Endorser for the Interact Asia-Pacific Multimedia
Festival, to be held in Victoria between 2 - 15 September.
The Interact Festival is the largest ICT development event of its kind
in the Asia Pacific region.

More info:
http://www.interact2002.com.au

----------------------------------------------------------------------

NOIE UPDATE is a service of the National Office for the Information
Economy covering NOIE related news and updates to NOIE's web sites

including:

http://www.noie.gov.au and http://www.govonline.gov.au.

Visit the main NOIE home page at http://www.noie.gov.au for the
latest news.

All rights reserved. (C) Copyright Commonwealth of Australia 2002.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
You have received this email because you signed up on the NOIE web site
to receive this newsletter.

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http://www.noie.gov.au/admin/subscribe/subscribe.htm

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From listoid@linkalarm.com  Sun Sep  1 12:42:47 2002
From: listoid@linkalarm.com (George Bray)
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 22:42:47 +1000
Subject: [LINK] Microsoft EULA Reference to Java
In-Reply-To: <020c53e86e3a$8675d8b4$7ab71be2@vjqtgh>
References: <020c53e86e3a$8675d8b4$7ab71be2@vjqtgh>
Message-ID: <p05111705b997b91f9f60@[192.168.1.6]>


And now, a word from our lawyers...

---
10. NOTE ON JAVA SUPPORT.  THE SOFTWARE MAY CONTAIN SUPPORT FOR 
PROGRAMS WRITTEN IN JAVA. JAVA TECHNOLOGY IS NOT FAULT TOLERANT AND 
IS NOT DESIGNED, MANUFACTURED, OR INTENDED FOR USE OR RESALE AS 
ONLINE CONTROL EQUIPMENT IN HAZARDOUS ENVIRONMENTS REQUIRING 
FAIL-SAFE PERFORMANCE, SUCH AS IN THE OPERATION OF NUCLEAR 
FACILITIES, AIRCRAFT NAVIGATION OR COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS, AIR TRAFFIC 
CONTROL, DIRECT LIFE SUPPORT MACHINES, OR WEAPONS SYSTEMS, IN WHICH 
THE FAILURE OF JAVA TECHNOLOGY COULD LEAD DIRECTLY TO DEATH, PERSONAL 
INJURY, OR SEVERE PHYSICAL OR ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE.  Sun 
Microsystems, Inc. has contractually obligated Microsoft to make this 
disclaimer.
---

What software would YOU run for fail-safe performance?

George Bray
Windows Patch Enthusiast
----------
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From grove@zeta.org.au  Sun Sep  1 14:21:34 2002
From: grove@zeta.org.au (Rachel Polanskis)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 00:21:34 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [LINK] Microsoft EULA Reference to Java
In-Reply-To: <p05111705b997b91f9f60@[192.168.1.6]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.40.0209020020530.13306-100000@isis.virago.org.au>

On Sun, 1 Sep 2002, George Bray wrote:

>
> And now, a word from our lawyers...
>
> ---
> 10. NOTE ON JAVA SUPPORT.  THE SOFTWARE MAY CONTAIN SUPPORT FOR
> PROGRAMS WRITTEN IN JAVA. JAVA TECHNOLOGY IS NOT FAULT TOLERANT AND
> IS NOT DESIGNED, MANUFACTURED, OR INTENDED FOR USE OR RESALE AS
> ONLINE CONTROL EQUIPMENT IN HAZARDOUS ENVIRONMENTS REQUIRING
> FAIL-SAFE PERFORMANCE, SUCH AS IN THE OPERATION OF NUCLEAR
> FACILITIES, AIRCRAFT NAVIGATION OR COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS, AIR TRAFFIC
> CONTROL, DIRECT LIFE SUPPORT MACHINES, OR WEAPONS SYSTEMS, IN WHICH
> THE FAILURE OF JAVA TECHNOLOGY COULD LEAD DIRECTLY TO DEATH, PERSONAL
> INJURY, OR SEVERE PHYSICAL OR ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE.  Sun
> Microsystems, Inc. has contractually obligated Microsoft to make this
> disclaimer.
> ---
>
> What software would YOU run for fail-safe performance?
>
> George Bray
> Windows Patch Enthusiast


I have seen this disclaimer on a lot of Sun Software, including the license
for Solaris.


rachel

-- 
Rachel Polanskis                 Kingswood, Greater Western Sydney, Australia
grove@zeta.org.au                http://www.zeta.org.au/~grove/grove.html
      "People don't say sorry in this country" - Max Connors (Seachange)

----------
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From rick@praxis.com.au  Sun Sep  1 15:22:40 2002
From: rick@praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 01:22:40 +1000
Subject: [LINK] Microsoft EULA Reference to Java
References: <020c53e86e3a$8675d8b4$7ab71be2@vjqtgh> <p05111705b997b91f9f60@[192.168.1.6]>
Message-ID: <3D7230C0.55216452@praxis.com.au>

George Bray wrote:
> 
> And now, a word from our lawyers...
> 
> ---
> 10. NOTE ON JAVA SUPPORT.  THE SOFTWARE MAY CONTAIN SUPPORT FOR
> PROGRAMS WRITTEN IN JAVA. JAVA TECHNOLOGY IS NOT FAULT TOLERANT AND
> IS NOT DESIGNED, MANUFACTURED, OR INTENDED FOR USE OR RESALE AS
> ONLINE CONTROL EQUIPMENT IN HAZARDOUS ENVIRONMENTS REQUIRING
> FAIL-SAFE PERFORMANCE, SUCH AS IN THE OPERATION OF NUCLEAR
> FACILITIES, AIRCRAFT NAVIGATION OR COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS, AIR TRAFFIC
> CONTROL, DIRECT LIFE SUPPORT MACHINES, OR WEAPONS SYSTEMS, IN WHICH
> THE FAILURE OF JAVA TECHNOLOGY COULD LEAD DIRECTLY TO DEATH, PERSONAL
> INJURY, OR SEVERE PHYSICAL OR ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE.  Sun
> Microsystems, Inc. has contractually obligated Microsoft to make this
> disclaimer.
> ---
> 
> What software would YOU run for fail-safe performance?

Not Win/NT or systems derived from it, such as W2K and Win/XP AFAIK.

I recall a *very* similar waiver/disclaimer/caveat(!) on a Win NT/3.51
package. I presume all Windows O/S products have a similar warning 
somewhere in the (fine) print.

 
> George Bray
> Windows Patch Enthusiast

You've got to be joking 8-)



cheers
rickw


-- 
_________________________________
Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services

linux: because a PC is a terrible thing to waste
  (ksh@cis.ufl.edu put this on Tshirts in '93)
----------
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From davs@mail.com  Sun Sep  1 21:24:12 2002
From: davs@mail.com (MARK AKU)
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 21:24:12 -0000
Subject: [LINK] 
Message-ID: <200209012124.g81LOA9v023513@anu.edu.au>

 

Dear sir/madam

With good recommendation,I  decided to contact you.
I am PRINCE DAVID  SAVIMBI, the son of JONAS SAVIMBI ,the leader of the
UNITA rebel in ANGOLA, who  was killed in february by the troop loyal to
the government .After his funeral  and burial,we had a family meeting and
resolved to invest the money he left  behind in your country, hence this
letter to you.He left the sum of $80 million  us dollars in cash, which was
a proceed from the sale of diamonds,which was  under his control.

However,the entire  development made us to flee ANGOLA to JOHANESBURG,SOUTH
AFRICA, for fear of  being killed.
The amount of $80 million  united states dollars in cash is presently in our
possession, and I would want it  to be invested in your country,due to the
stability of your economy.The money is  presently with an emergency
diplomatic security courier company,which my mother and I hurriedly used
to move the
cargo out from our country to SOUTH AFRICA.We  registered it under a
security
code with no name, and was registered as  containing photographic paper
material.

My mother and I have resolved to give you  15% of the total sum for your
assistance in
getting this funds transferred to  your reliable company's account in your
country,for investment.We have equally  resolved to spend the rest of our
lives in your country.You have to  make traveling arrangement
of coming to JOHANESBURG,SOUTH AFRICA,immediately to  meet with me face to
face and see the funds physically,then have it transferred  to your
account.Afterwhich both of us would travel together to your country for
sharing and immediate investment,then my family will join me later.

As we await your urgent  reply, strictly through my e-mail
 davsavimbi2002@yahoo.com , davsavimbi2002@hotmail.com  ,  or my private
phone number +882 1 646685229.  your
absolute trust and confidentiality is highly solicited to serve us better.

Best regard
PRINCE DAVID SAVIMBI
----------
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From Richard.Chirgwin@informa.com.au  Sun Sep  1 22:05:28 2002
From: Richard.Chirgwin@informa.com.au (Chirgwin, Richard)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 08:05:28 +1000 
Subject: [LINK] Plagarism and the MIT
Message-ID: <9BD4AE8C2EB1D311982700508BA2498902A4DB58@EXCHANGE_AU>

Fame has been a curse for the MIT. Ever since Nick Neg, the institute has
become addicted to its role as "futurologist for the wired world." 

So when the ideas run a little dry, it steals them:
>http://horizoncomics.com/radix/
>(MONTREAL, QUEBEC) - The Massachusetts Institute of Technology appropriated

>copyrighted images from the new comic book "Radix" and used the images
without 
>permission as part of the school's successful application for a $50 million

>Defense Department grant.
>MIT's unwarranted use of Radix's lead character, "Valerie Fiores,"
permanently 
>damaged the comic book, said creator Ray Lai.
>"People who buy Radix buy a fantasy," said Lai. "Now MIT says all future
U.S. 
>soldiers will look like Radix. They're saying Radix is not fantasy, it's
reality. 
>By doing that, MIT stole our ability to market Radix as escapist
entertainment."
>On May 3, 2002, an attorney for MIT admitted the school "reproduced"
figures and 
>scenes from Radix "to illustrate to the U.S. Army certain research concepts
of the 
>future U.S. soldier" as part of its winning bid to create the Institute for
Soldier 
>Nanotechnologies (ISN.) 

Life imitating art: there was a sci-fi novel in the sixties, Philip K Dick's
"The Zap Gun", in which psionic weapons designers copied their creations
from comic books...

But what a crock the MIT is becoming. We complain how our own universities
debase academic goals for commercial ones ... how about debasing BOTH
academic and commercial goals, just to become a more effective member of the
military, and garner headlines?

RC
----------
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From Richard.Chirgwin@informa.com.au  Sun Sep  1 21:52:50 2002
From: Richard.Chirgwin@informa.com.au (Chirgwin, Richard)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 07:52:50 +1000 
Subject: Buyers' Market for IT staff? (was RE: [LINK] More Telstra  In
	competence)
Message-ID: <9BD4AE8C2EB1D311982700508BA2498902A4DB57@EXCHANGE_AU>

Michael,

It's worse than that. Looking over one prominent university's course list
(unnamed because it's not alone), the specialisations are, well, pretty
trashy. Here's the bachelor's list (with my comments):
Business and Information Technology 
Business Systems 
...The difference between these two being?

Computer Science 
Computing
...with all the other specialisations, what's "computing"? Generic stuff?
Worth a degree on its own?

Digital Systems
Information Management and Systems
Multimedia
Multimedia Business and Computing
Multimedia Computing 
...Three variations on multimedia? 

Network Computing 
Software Engineering

I don't think it's harsh to suggest that at least in name, the subdivisions
have little to do with academic content, much to do with marketability of
the degree course. 

Returning to the original thread: the lack of background information relates
to what's 'marketable' in university courses. I'll bet you the three
'business' streams are VERY popular. All three, in the longer description,
envisage a career path more-or-less as follows:
1) finish degree
2) take an entry level position
3) become a consultant as soon as possible
4) enter "general management"

Quoting from the University's promotional guff:
>employment as a business analyst, IT consultant or analyst programmer, 
>with most looking to move into general management positions at a later
stage. 

and
>The degree is also intended to provide a strong basis for a transition to 
>more strategic management roles. 

Two, no three degrees in computing for people who don't want to work with
computers.

OK. Over in the real world, there's the ongoing debate about "IT Does Not
Deliver". Umm, a good slab of the reason why: it's managed by people that
don't understand what they're managing. Without sufficient knowledge of
their own, they're forced to rely on the vendors for their decision-making.
It's no surprise that the decisions start to look like vendor powerpoints.

Taking your medical analogy, Jan: what if I went to the college of surgeons
asking for accreditation, and said to them "No, I didn't study surgery, I
studied how to manage surgeons"? And then added ... "Which means, of course,
that I should earn more than the surgeons!" 

Richard Chirgwin


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Still [mailto:mikal@stillhq.com]
> Sent: Saturday, 31 August 2002 12:39
> To: Jan Whitaker
> Cc: link@www.anu.edu.au
> Subject: Re: Buyers' Market for IT staff? (was RE: [LINK] More Telstra
> Incompetence)
> 
> 
> On Sat, 31 Aug 2002, Jan Whitaker wrote:
> 
> > I'm just putting out probably inane examples, but the point is has
> > computing enlarged so much as a field that it is being more and more
> > segmented, sort of like medical specialities?
> 
> This is an interesting concept which hadn't occurred to me until you
> suggested it. I think that you're right.
> 
> The problem is that the Universities don't advertise their 
> degrees in this
> way. For example, if you want to study law in Canberra, your 
> choices are
> going to Uni of Canberra (which advertises a commercial law focus), or
> going to ANU (which advertises a constitutional law focus). 
> The IT degrees
> don't do this yet.
> 
> Mikal
> 
> -- 
> 
> Michael Still (mikal@stillhq.com)     UMT+10hrs
> 
> ----------
> For Link list information see http://sunsite.anu.edu.au/link/
> 
----------
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From jwhit@PrimeNet.Com  Sun Sep  1 22:34:31 2002
From: jwhit@PrimeNet.Com (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 08:34:31 +1000
Subject: [LINK] Telstra and ACCC - share that copper!
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20020902083252.020fc190@pop.primenet.com>

In the Saturday Age:

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/08/30/1030508118173.html

ACCC declares spectrum sharing on Telstra's copper network
Sydney
August 30 2002

Australia's competition watchdog today declared line sharing or spectrum 
sharing services on Telstra Corp Ltd's national copper telephone network.

Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) chairman Allan Fels 
said the decision meant Telstra must allow other service providers access 
to the high-speed data capacity of its copper network

[snip]

Focus is on broadband competition and ACCC arbitration if agreements can't 
be reached.

Jan

JLWhitaker Associates
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
jwhit@primenet.com  --  http://www.primenet.com/~jwhit/whitentr.htm


----------
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From Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au  Sun Sep  1 22:52:08 2002
From: Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 08:52:08 +1000
Subject: [LINK] Plagarism and the MIT
In-Reply-To: <9BD4AE8C2EB1D311982700508BA2498902A4DB58@EXCHANGE_AU>
References: <9BD4AE8C2EB1D311982700508BA2498902A4DB58@EXCHANGE_AU>
Message-ID: <a05100303b99849a4e840@[192.168.123.119]>


"Chirgwin, Richard" <Richard.Chirgwin@informa.com.au>
>But what a crock the MIT is becoming. We complain how our own universities
>debase academic goals for commercial ones ... how about debasing BOTH
>academic and commercial goals, just to become a more effective member of the
>military, and garner headlines?

MIT has had close ties with the military for a very long time. 
People sell their souls to the military in return for some space in 
which to do their *real* research.  It's one of the facts of life of 
engineering.  I don't know about Greece and Rome, but think Leonardo 
da Vinci.

-- 
Roger Clarke              http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/

Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd, 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA
                 Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916
mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au            http://www.xamax.com.au/

Visiting Fellow                       Department of Computer Science
The Australian National University     Canberra  ACT  0200 AUSTRALIA
Information Sciences Building Room 211       Tel:  +61  2  6125 3666
----------
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From danny@anatomy.usyd.edu.au  Mon Sep  2 00:27:59 2002
From: danny@anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 10:27:59 +1000
Subject: [LINK] Plagarism and the MIT
In-Reply-To: <a05100303b99849a4e840@[192.168.123.119]>; from Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au on Mon, Sep 02, 2002 at 08:52:08AM +1000
References: <9BD4AE8C2EB1D311982700508BA2498902A4DB58@EXCHANGE_AU> <a05100303b99849a4e840@[192.168.123.119]>
Message-ID: <20020902102759.E18735@anatomy.usyd.edu.au>

Roger Clarke wrote:
> MIT has had close ties with the military for a very long time. 
> People sell their souls to the military in return for some space in 
> which to do their *real* research.  It's one of the facts of life of 
> engineering.  I don't know about Greece and Rome, but think Leonardo 
> da Vinci.
 
Archimedes designed war weapons for Hiero, the ruler of Syracuse.
	http://www.shu.edu/html/teaching/math/reals/history/archimed.html

Danny.
  --------------------------------------------------------
  http://dannyreviews.com/ - over six hundred book reviews
  http://www.caa.org.au/ -   working for an end to poverty
  http://danny.oz.au/ - free speech, free software, travel
  --------------------------------------------------------
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From jeff.evans@iird.vic.gov.au  Mon Sep  2 00:56:09 2002
From: jeff.evans@iird.vic.gov.au (jeff.evans@iird.vic.gov.au)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 10:56:09 +1000
Subject: [LINK] Hard-to find information (part 1)
Message-ID: <OF261DA7CD.12293284-ONCA256C28.0002E796@dsd.vic.gov.au>


Ash

For your information, there IS a quicker way to get to "search for a
(Victorian) business name"; < http://online.justice.vic.gov.au > While it's
not an intuitive URL, the site does provide important context for this and
other online transactions offered via Department of Justice.

For thoroughness' sake I've attach the (long)  response that is sent to
email enquirers. You'll see that there are several pathways to searching
Business Names and accessing the registration forms; in person, by phone
and Web.

Future VIC.GOV Web developments (particularly the Victorian Online Gateway
project, see < http://egov.vic.gov.au > for more) will provide a lot better
online discoverability of information for the public, so the structure of
government departments and agencies becomes far less relevant to people
like you, just wanting to get to the stuff you're after.

Regards

Jeff Evans
Online Services Manager, Small Business Online
Department of Innovation, Industry and Regional Development
Victoria, Australia

http://www.businessaccess.vic.gov.au
http://www.business.channel.vic.gov.au
http://www.export.vic.gov.au

--

Business Names
==============
>>Note: This information is correct for the state of Victoria, Australia.
Other regulations, etc. may apply in other locations.<<

The simplest form of business setup where you don't operate the
business under your own name is to register a Business Name.
Registering a Business Name costs $70 for 3 years and can be
done at Consumer & Business Affairs
  452 Flinders Street, Melbourne  VIC 3000
  Phone 03 9627 6200   Fax 03 9627 6530

It is possible to download the Application to Register a
Business Name, forms for Associations, Cooperatives
and other forms at the Consumer & Business Affairs
Victoria site. These forms are in Portable Document Format (PDF).
 visit: < http://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/ >

Online applications for Business Names will become available
in due course.

Business Name registration forms can also be obtained by
contacting Business Access directly by phone (local call)
13 22 15, in person or by mail:
  Business Access, level 5/55 Collins Street,
  Melbourne VIC 3000
or by fax: (03) 9651 9725.

We can email or post you the forms, or you can visit Business
Channel (see below) and access the relevant forms online.

More about Business Names
========================
A more detailed outline of Business Names can be found on the
Consumer & Business Affairs Victoria web site
< http://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/ >

The Consumer & Business Affairs registry is charged with the
responsibility to register and maintain records on the following:
- Business Names, Co-operatives, Incorporated Associations, Limited
     Partnerships.

Please contact Consumer & Business Affairs  if you have a
Business Name registration query about an existing or recently
registered Business Name (including change of address).

Renewing and Searching a Business Name - now online
===================================================
You can now renew your Victorian Business Name registration
or search to see if a name is registered online. Each business
name has its own business registration number. To use this free
service go to
< http://online.justice.vic.gov.au >

Full online searching of existing Victorian business names
and the national company register can be done via the National
Names Index or via an information broker (for a fee). From
the ASIC site < http://www.asic.gov.au/ > it is possible to do
Business Name searches for all states by selecting "National
Names Index". This gives basic details that would enable a
person to see if a name exists. This free search. This
search and other details can also be accessed through
some Brokers linked from the ASIC site (for a fee).

Searching for other business details
=====================================
The Business Entry Point (BEP) offers a range of services to
business clients via the Australian Business Register (ABR) and
its own public on-line database, ABRpublic. The ABR is the
central collection, storage and verification system for basic
business identity information from all entities with an
Australian Business Number (ABN).

ABRpublic is an online database that contains the publicly
available information provided by businesses when they register
for an ABN. It is a convenient way for you to access a partial
version of the ABR. < http://www.abr.gov.au/ >

Searching for Businesses
=====================
It is possible to search on the Internet for business names
that have been registered (see above). You can also search in
person for registered business names and find out other
information such as Association incorporation at:

   Consumer Affairs Victoria
   452 Flinders Street   Melbourne  VIC 3000
   Phone 03 9627 6200   Fax 03 9627 6530

Contact information for businesses is available from their
websites (if they have one) or a search of the phone directory
sites, eg. < http://www.whitepages.com.au/ >
     < http://www.yellowpages.com.au/ >


Online access - Business Name registration
========================================
Online access to Business Name registration and other licence
and permit information is now available via the Business Licence
Information Service (BLIS), delivered through Business Channel.
     <http://www.business.channel.vic.gov.au/BLIS>

Click on "Licences & Permits" then "Business Licence Information
Service".


Do I need to register a Business Name?
================================
If you are operating your business under a business name in
Victoria there are some instances where that name will have
to be registered with Consumer and Business Affairs Victoria
(see below). You will not have to register the name if it consists
of your own surname and given names and/or initials.

However the name will have to be registered if you add other
words to your name - for example, Vic Brown Basement Bargains,
or Vic Brown and Son. All names other than your own will have to
be registered. Officers at Consumer and Business Affairs Victoria
will be able to advise you on this matter. When registering a
business name a fee is payable - $70.00 for a 3-year registration.

Business Names in other States
==============================
A Business Name is registered on a State-by-State basis - in
other words if you register a name in Victoria and want to operate
in SA too, you'll need to reserve the name with the SA authorities as well
(see below for more about interstate agencies).

_Companies_ (see below) are registered nationally.

Business Channel & BLIS
-----------------------------------
The Business Licence Information Service (BLIS) is available
online at the Business Channel website:
< http://www.business.channel.vic.gov.au/BLIS >

Personal Business Name applications can be made at:
Business Access
Level 5, 55 Collins Street
MELBOURNE VIC 3000
Ph hotline 13 22 15 (local call)
     OR
Consumer and Business Affairs Victoria
Level 2, 452 Flinders Street
MELBOURNE VIC 3000
Ph (03) 9627 6200 Fax: (03) 9627 6210
Web site:  <http://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/>

Other Business Structures
======================
If you're interested in other business structures available in
Victoria, we suggest you take a look at our website, which
also contains links to hundreds of sites & organisations
offering assistance to small businesses. Have a look at
Business Access's Information Sheets at
     < http://www.businessaccess.vic.gov.au/>

     Click on Starting Up, then Business

Click on the Information Sheets button and then the title/s you
have an interest in. To find out more, for instance,  about this
subject, there are Information Sheets entitled "Business
Names" and "How Should I Structure My Business?" for
free downloading. Printed Information Sheets can be obtained
at any of our Victorian Business Centre locations.

See the Business Access site for location details.

There are over 80 Information Sheets in total, on a variety
of small business management topics in Portable Document
Format (PDF).  A complete set of Information Sheets is
also available as a single PDF file.

Company information
=================
Companies can be registered by solicitors on behalf of their
clients; normally a solicitor will work with a client's
accountant to prepare all the necessary documents and records.
An alternative is to use a "shelf company service".  Such a
business registers a number of companies at the same time and
prepares necessary documentation; this is kept "on the shelf" so
to speak, ready to be sold to clients with straightforward
requirements as to their company structures. Fees for such
services vary considerably. See the Yellow Pages or other
phone directories under "Shelf Company Services" for a listing
of these businesses.

Companies are registered on a national basis. Company
information can be searched at:
     Australian Securities & Investment Commission
     Business Centre, Melbourne
     Level 17, CU Tower
     485 Latrobe St Melbourne Vic 3001
     Phone 03 9280 3500 or 1800 039 038
     Fax 03 9280 3550
     website:  < http://www.asic.gov.au/ >

There are also several commercial faxback ASIC services; visit
the ASIC Web site for more information.

Registering in Other States
=====================
Readers operating in other Australian States should contact
their local relevant authority:

Australian Capital Territory
------------------------------------------
Registrar General's Office
Allara House, Cnr Constitution Avenue & Allara Street,
Canberra, ACT 2600
Postal:  GPO Box 788 Canberra, ACT 2601
Telephone  (02) 6207 0461  Fax  (02) 6207 0895

New South Wales
------------------------------------------
Department of Fair Trading
1 Fitzwilliam Street, Parramatta NSW 2150
Postal  PO Box 972 Parramatta, NSW 2124
Telephone  (02) 9895 0111
Fax  (02) 9895 0222
<http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/>

Northern Territory
------------------------------------------
Registrar of Business Names
Ground Floor, Development House
76 The Esplanade Darwin, NT
Telephone  (08) 8924 4280

Queensland
------------------------------------------
Office of Fair Trading
Floor 21, State Law Building,
Corner Ann and George Streets, Brisbane QLD 4000
Postal:  GPO Box 3111 Brisbane, QLD 4001
Telephone  (07) 3246 1581  Fax  (07) 3220 0076
<http://www.consumer.qld.gov.au/business-names/>

South Australia
------------------------------------------
Business and Occupational Services
3rd Floor, Chesser House,
91-97 Grenfell Street, Adelaide SA 5000
Postal  GPO Box 1407 Adelaide, SA 5001
Telephone  (08) 8204 9779  Fax  (08) 8204 9771
<http://www.ocba.sa.gov.au/>

Tasmania
------------------------------------------
Department of Corporate Affairs
Ground Floor, 15 Murray Street Hobart, TAS 7000
Postal:  GPO Box 249C Hobart, TAS 7001
Telephone  (03) 6233 2226  Fax  (03) 6224 0743
<http://www.justice.tas.gov.au/breg/>

Western Australia
------------------------------------------
Ministry of Fair Trading, Business Names Branch
1st Floor, 66 St. George's Terrace, Perth, WA 6000
Postal:  GPO Box W2072 Perth, WA 6001
Telephone  (08) 9426 1222  Fax  (08) 9321 3563
<http://www.fairtrading.wa.gov.au>





                                                                                                                                   
                    "Ash                                                                                                           
                    Nallawalla"           To:     <link@www.anu.edu.au>                                                            
                    <ash@melbpc.org       cc:                                                                                      
                    .au>                  Fax to:                                                                                  
                    Sent by:              Subject:     [LINK] Hard-to find information                                             
                    owner-link@www.                                                                                                
                    anu.edu.au                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   
                    31/08/2002                                                                                                     
                    12:08 PM                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                   




I'm having one of those lost-in-hyperspace days, or is it months?

Task 1.

Was looking for seemingly simple information -- how to search for a
registered business name in Victoria.

My usual search for such things begins at www.asic.gov.au whence I look
up a name.  I easily found the name as "pending" and noticed that it was
referenced to the VIC Office of Fair Trading & Business Affairs.  I
vaguely recalled being able to search the latter site.

I went to www.vic.gov.au and there the journey began.  Try searching for
"Fair Trading" or  "Business Name".  I visited numerous hits and dead
ends (there must be hundreds of independent web sites in this government
and they love changing department names).  Even tried the Google link
shown at the end of their search results, to no avail.  I finally found
the lookup page I was looking for (but not the company name in question)
-- has a long Domino URL.  If anyone loves a little challenge, I
recommend this project.

Task 2.

Those of us who belong to the RACV may recall a leaflet inside the
magazine advertising a competition to win a free kitchen worth $20,000.
You could drop off the coupon at the Home Show, mail it, or fill it out
online.  Of course, I went looking for the online form some weeks ago
via www.racv.com.au.

Hah.  I think I am good at finding things, but I failed.  Wrote an email
to the RACV and asked for the online link.  To be safe, I sent my
(winning?) entry by post. :-)

Good move.  This Saturday morning, their Tele-Centre sent me the
following a few minutes ago:
=====
Hi Ash

Thank you for your enquiry regarding the competition.  Please find below
the link to enter the competition plus a couple of others as well.

Good Luck!

Awesome accommodation deals
http://journeys.racv.com.au/members/tactical_enter_comp_form.cfm
The Witches of Eastwick special ticket offer
http://www.journeys.racv.com.au/racvrt/holidayideas/event.cfm?id=62D55AD
6-F0AA-4AFC-B9A0A2008E1FB0F1
Thrifty win a $3000 holiday competition
http://journeys.racv.com.au/members/comp_termsconditions.cfm?id=47AB6C9C
-1481-48C2-B7613CF4C83EE2C8
Win $20,000 kitchen make over
http://journeys.racv.com.au/members/homeshow_enter_comp_form.cfm

[snip]
====

The last one is the competition I was after.  Never mind that ALL those
links point to offers that have now closed (thank heavens I used the
post), but I cannot find them if I go in via www.racv.com.au.  Even if I
cheat and go to the non-intuitive Journeys and Destinations link, I
cannot find the kitchen promotion page even though the page is live.
Perhaps becoming an online "member" is a clue but I did not try that.

I think I'll go out and enjoy the sunshine. :-)

- Ash

----------
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 _____________________________________________________________
 
Department of Innovation, Industry and Regional Development
Department of Tourism, Sport and the Commonwealth Games 
Government of Victoria, Victoria, Australia. 

This e-mail and any attachments may contain privileged and
confidential information.

If you are not the intended recipient, you may not 
distribute or reproduce this e-mail or the attachments.

If you have received this message in error please notify us
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From jpadfield@hotkey.net.au  Mon Sep  2 01:13:59 2002
From: jpadfield@hotkey.net.au (Jonathon Padfield)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 11:13:59 +1000
Subject: Buyers' Market for IT staff? (was RE: [LINK] More Telstra  In competence)
In-Reply-To: <9BD4AE8C2EB1D311982700508BA2498902A4DB57@EXCHANGE_AU>
References: <9BD4AE8C2EB1D311982700508BA2498902A4DB57@EXCHANGE_AU>
Message-ID: <200209021114.04008.jpadfield@hotkey.net.au>

On Mon, 2 Sep 2002 07:52, Chirgwin, Richard wrote:
> Michael,
>
> It's worse than that. Looking over one prominent university's course list
> (unnamed because it's not alone), the specialisations are, well, pretty
> trashy. Here's the bachelor's list (with my comments):
>
> Computer Science
> Computing
> ...with all the other specialisations, what's "computing"? Generic stuff?
> Worth a degree on its own?

I think I recognise the Uni, and I'll put my hand up to doing "computing". 
It's not a very helpful name, but the course consists of three pretty 
distinct streams, Software, Computer Tech and Info Systems. Students do a 
couple of compulsary subjects in each, and then choose electives in the 
stream that interests them. So a student may come out with a fairly technical 
knowledgebase, including things like database design, network programming, 
and programming in a wide variety of languages.

On the other hand, they could specialise in "Information Systems", which has 
all the project management, report writing and diagramming subjects. All 
under the same course name.

> I don't think it's harsh to suggest that at least in name, the subdivisions
> have little to do with academic content, much to do with marketability of
> the degree course.

I think you'll find that a lot of those subdivisions are geographical. One 
campus offers one computing, the other computer science, the other software 
engineering or network computing.

-Jon

----------
For Link list information see http://sunsite.anu.edu.au/link/

From rw@firstpr.com.au  Mon Sep  2 01:26:25 2002
From: rw@firstpr.com.au (Robin Whittle)
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 11:26:25 +1000
Subject: [LINK] Victorian "explicit" services website restrictions
Message-ID: <3D72BE41.47CBBA56@firstpr.com.au>

The Victorian government takes this "Victorian" stuff seriously:

  http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/09/01/1030508160640.html   

New restrictions come into force about using the Web to "explicitly"
advertise certain personal services.

- - - - 

Brothels lose web nudity rights
By Julie Szego  September 2 2002

Prostitution websites in Victoria will no longer be able to entice
customers with full-body images of naked women or explicit menus of
available services, under regulations that take effect today.

The regulations limit pictures to head and shoulder images and ban
advertising of explicit sexual services. The changes are designed to
close a loophole that has allowed some businesses to engage in risque
Web advertising.

The restrictions already applied to "published" advertisements, such as
those that appeared in print, but whether "published" covered Web
material was unclear. The new rules abolish the ambiguity.

Consumer and Business Affairs Victoria director David Cousins said a
dispute with Melbourne's Daily Planet brothel showed the law change was
needed. The brothel's website contains full-body shots of naked women
and explicit advertisements for services.

Daily Planet Ltd's managing director, Andrew Harris, defended the
brothel's website as "tasteful". He said the company would review its
position under the new regulations.  (http://www.dailyplanet.com.au/)

Dr Cousins said the brothel would be prosecuted if it failed to comply
with the new regulations. He said the agency would examine prostitution
websites to ensure compliance with the new rules. Offenders would be
"rigorously prosecuted".

- - - - 

There's a certain irony in promising to "rigorously prosecute" stalwart
Businesswomen and businessmen for properly describing their personal,
and often highly therapeutic services, including services which
themselves involve rigorous ordeals of a disciplinary nature, such as
those offered by Mistress Tara's Fetish House:

   http://www.fetishhouse.com.au

or other Establishments and Independent Mistresses (its best to
capitalise references to these Women or anything to do with Them!) such
as:   

   http://home.mira.net/~ccentre/   The Correction Centre
   http://home.mira.net/~batgrl/    Mistress Victoria
   http://www.houseofdom.com.au/    The House of Domination
   
There are many more such Mistresses who can be found via various
dominatrix listing sites.

These fine Entrepreneurs offer personalised, emotional, intellectual and
tactile services for a wide range of clients, usually men - most
typically highly stressed persons with management and leadership
responsibilities in commerce, government and law.  

No doubt Dr Cousins gains much the same satisfaction as the Mistresses
in promising to be "rigorous"!   But Dr Cousin's rigour is one of dull,
bureaucratic suppression of commerce and truth in advertising - far
different from the Mistress' Acutely Personal and Enlivening Rigour for
which captains of government and industry pay $230 and hour!  

With the Victorian government, compulsory dullness is all part of the
service.
      

A search of legislation and regulations at:
 
   http://www.dms.dpc.vic.gov.au/sb/sbhome.html?

lead me to the likely culprit:

   http://www.dms.dpc.vic.gov.au/sb/1999_Act/A00642.html

but I haven't trawled through it to see what sorts of businesses this
applies to, or what "explicit" means in this context.  There's no
mention of "web" or "Internet" there, so I guess that some recent
additions to the regulations have extended the scope to the Net.   


 - Robin
----------
For Link list information see http://sunsite.anu.edu.au/link/

From Liddy.Nevile@motile.net  Mon Sep  2 04:02:36 2002
From: Liddy.Nevile@motile.net (Liddy Nevile)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 14:02:36 +1000
Subject: [LINK] OZeWAI 2002 - Web Content Accessibility Conference - Nov 2002
Message-ID: <a05100303b99892672c67@[131.172.135.203]>

Linkers
This event has been held each year for a while now. If you are 
interested in learning more about accessibility, please consider this 
year's offering:

http://www.OZeWAI.org/2002/

We would be grateful if you can circulate this email to others who 
may be interested (appropriately).

Liddy Nevile
----------
For Link list information see http://sunsite.anu.edu.au/link/

From me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au  Mon Sep  2 05:13:06 2002
From: me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au (Tony Barry)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 15:13:06 +1000
Subject: [LINK] Re: Sex differences in technical fields
In-Reply-To: <20020830093836.C515@cyber.com.au>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.40.0208292323550.11408-100000@isis.virago.org.au>
 <013401c24fa8$4d2eadc0$d8218790@telstra.com>
 <20020830093836.C515@cyber.com.au>
Message-ID: <a0510030bb998a2b4b36b@[10.0.1.202]>

At 9:38 AM +1000 on 30/8/02, lance@cyber.com.au wrote:


>I was able to tell him what to do in a few words and it all worked.
>The Microsoft guy naturally asked him who he'd spoken to, and my son
>said the expression on his face when he replied "that was my mum," was
>very entertaining.  I guess it was strange enough to him that a female
>knew what to do, but a *mum*!  Probably caused a severe episode of
>cognitive dissonance...

A few years ago I was lurking on a list devoted to some software (now 
RealBasic) which my son Andrew had written. There was a posting with 
some rather over the top praise. In a spirit of fun I posted a 
comment asking for the praise to be toned down as it would go to 
Andrew's head and signed it "Andrew's dad". A comment came right back 
suggesting that Andrew had brought this on himself by showing his 
oldies how to use email. I later got an apology from the poster after 
he checked my web site ;-)

Tony
-- 
--
phone : +61 2 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
mobile: +61 4 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au
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From rsedc@urgento.gse.rmit.EDU.AU  Mon Sep  2 05:39:12 2002
From: rsedc@urgento.gse.rmit.EDU.AU (David Chia)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 15:39:12 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [LINK] Re: Sex differences in technical fields
In-Reply-To: <20020830091514.GJ10029@taz.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1020902151023.31930A-100000@atlantic>


> > *NT* in the meyer-briggs personality test (she's INTJ, I'm ENTP,
> > apparently less than 4% of the population are NT, but a large number
> > of sysadmins are).

On average 12.5% of population are NT type.


> it would be interesting to know whether there was a gender-based
> difference in the percentage of NT types,

There is a known gender shift in the F-T scale, i.e. on the T (thinking)
scale female 40% vs male 60%, or for NT type female 10% vs male 15%.

Below is my data from '96 online web survey with 70 questions. At that
time the % of female online was considered to be less than 10% and yet
I was able to obtain allegedly 49% female response. A few US universities
were using my survey in their teaching might explained the %.

In contrast to popular belief, it was the NF rather than NT type that
is over-represented on the internet at that time. (percentages in brackets
are the expected general population data). As expected, the SP type
was very under represented.


<pre>

CyberSpace Population Personality Profile
(C) David Chia '96, free to quote.

TOTAL  NUMBER =  32198

FEMALE NUMBER =  15671      49 %

energizing:	Extroversion 49% (75%),	Introversion 51% (25%)
attending: 	Sensing      33% (75%),	iNtuition    67% (25%)
deciding:  	Thinking     29% (40%),	Feeling      71% (60%) *
living:    	Judgement    61% (50%),	Perception   39% (50%)

NF (reach for the sky) 51.0% (15.0%)
NT (foresight)         15.9% (10.0%)
SJ (hindsight)         28.0% (37.5%)
SP (let's drink wine)   5.2% (37.5%)

+----+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+
|  % |    NF |    NT |    SF |    ST |  sum  |
+----+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+
| EJ |    12 |     4 |     7 |     5 |    27 |
+----+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+
| IJ |    12 |     6 |     9 |     7 |    34 |
+----+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+
| EP |    16 |     3 |     2 |     1 |    22 |
+----+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+
| IP |    11 |     3 |     2 |     1 |    17 |
+----+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+
|    |    51 |    16 |    20 |    14 |       |
+----+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+



MALE   NUMBER =  16527      51 %

energizing:	Extroversion 40% (75%),	Introversion 60% (25%)
attending: 	Sensing      33% (75%),	iNtuition    67% (25%)
deciding:  	Thinking     50% (60%),	Feeling      50% (40%) *
living:    	Judgement    55% (50%),	Perception   45% (50%)

NF (reach for the sky) 38.4% (10.5%)
NT (foresight)         28.6% (15.5%)
SJ (hindsight)         25.9% (37.5%)
SP (let's drink wine)   7.2% (37.5%)

+----+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+
|  % |    NF |    NT |    SF |    ST |  sum  |
+----+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+
| EJ |     6 |     5 |     3 |     6 |    20 |
+----+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+
| IJ |     8 |    10 |     5 |    12 |    35 |
+----+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+
| EP |    12 |     5 |     2 |     1 |    20 |
+----+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+
| IP |    13 |     8 |     2 |     2 |    25 |
+----+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+
|    |    38 |    29 |    11 |    22 |       |
+----+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+

</pre>

-- 
David Chia, RMIT University

----------
For Link list information see http://sunsite.anu.edu.au/link/

From annm@exocat.com.au  Mon Sep  2 06:49:03 2002
From: annm@exocat.com.au (Ann Moffatt)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 16:49:03 +1000
Subject: [LINK] Re: Sex differences in technical fields
References: <Pine.GSO.4.40.0208292323550.11408-100000@isis.virago.org.au> <013401c24fa8$4d2eadc0$d8218790@telstra.com> <20020830093836.C515@cyber.com.au> <a0510030bb998a2b4b36b@[10.0.1.202]>
Message-ID: <002901c2524c$d7b2b300$d8218790@telstra.com>

yes tony, as i said i'm old & female. there is no hope for me.

i remember in 60s or early 70s meeting the only female ibm director in the
usa. she was very well spoken & well qualified. i asked her how she got her
directorship. she said, with a DEEP southern accent, "honey chile, i's black
& i's female and if i were jewish as well they'd never get rid of me!!"

annm
************************************
Ann Moffatt
EXoCaT Pty Ltd
49 Raintree Avenue
BURRUM HEADS QLD 4659
tel +61 (0) 7 4129 5796
fax +61 (0) 7 4129 5916
***********************************
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Barry" <me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au>
To: <lance@cyber.com.au>
Cc: "Ann Moffatt" <annm@exocat.com.au>; <link@www.anu.edu.au>
Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: [LINK] Re: Sex differences in technical fields


> At 9:38 AM +1000 on 30/8/02, lance@cyber.com.au wrote:
>
>
> >I was able to tell him what to do in a few words and it all worked.
> >The Microsoft guy naturally asked him who he'd spoken to, and my son
> >said the expression on his face when he replied "that was my mum," was
> >very entertaining.  I guess it was strange enough to him that a female
> >knew what to do, but a *mum*!  Probably caused a severe episode of
> >cognitive dissonance...
>
> A few years ago I was lurking on a list devoted to some software (now
> RealBasic) which my son Andrew had written. There was a posting with
> some rather over the top praise. In a spirit of fun I posted a
> comment asking for the praise to be toned down as it would go to
> Andrew's head and signed it "Andrew's dad". A comment came right back
> suggesting that Andrew had brought this on himself by showing his
> oldies how to use email. I later got an apology from the poster after
> he checked my web site ;-)
>
> Tony
> --
> --
> phone : +61 2 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
> mobile: +61 4 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au
> ----------
> For Link list information see http://sunsite.anu.edu.au/link/
>

----------
For Link list information see http://sunsite.anu.edu.au/link/

From mgm-ns@tardis.net  Mon Sep  2 07:55:59 2002
From: mgm-ns@tardis.net (Malcolm Miles)
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 17:55:59 +1000
Subject: [LINK] Hard-to find information (part 1)
In-Reply-To: <OF261DA7CD.12293284-ONCA256C28.0002E796@dsd.vic.gov.au>
References: <OF261DA7CD.12293284-ONCA256C28.0002E796@dsd.vic.gov.au>
Message-ID: <l166nuov9rv77guqqp33tuv1ta1qdunqmq@4ax.com>

On Mon, 2 Sep 2002 10:56:09 +1000, you wrote:

>Online applications for Business Names will become available
>in due course.

And when is "in due course"? This statement has been on the Web site
for as long as I can remember. Web pages that promise things "real
soon" are a pet hate of mine.

-- 
Best wishes,
Malcolm

----------
For Link list information see http://sunsite.anu.edu.au/link/

From carl@stagecraft.cx  Mon Sep  2 10:12:04 2002
From: carl@stagecraft.cx (Carl Makin)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 20:12:04 +1000
Subject: [LINK] www.fed.gov.au requires cookies.
Message-ID: <6E264DCE-BE5C-11D6-ACC9-0050E445BE6D@stagecraft.cx>

<sigh>  More marketing driven invasion of privacy.

I automatically disable cookies except for certain known sites when 
browsing.  I really can't see any reason for the www.fed.gov.au to 
require the use of cookies for any reason.

They appear to be using it as part of some form of link access counter.


Carl.


Begin forwarded message:

> From: FED Gov For InfoAccess <FED.GOV@noie.gov.au>
> Date: Mon Sep 02, 2002  03:05:43  PM Australia/Sydney
> To: "'carl@stagecraft.cx'" <carl@stagecraft.cx>
> Subject: Accessing links from FedGov query
>
>
> Dear Carl,
>
> Thank you for forwarding your inquiry to www.fed.gov.au - the 
> Commonwealth
> Government Entry Point.
>
> This site requires temporary or session cookies be enabled as the site 
> uses
> session cookies for maintaining contact with you while you are in a
> www.fed.gov.au session.  The site is also reliant on the cookies for
> security, however, no personal information is gathered.
>
> I hope this is of assistance.
>
> Regards
> Isobel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: agps web admin [mailto:webmstr@ausinfoweb.agps.gov.au]
> Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 9:23 PM
> Subject: www.fed.gov.au Comments/Feedback Form
>
>
> email=carl@stagecraft.cx
> comments=Hi,
> Whenever I try to follow a link on your main page I get the following 
> error;
>
> Error: 500
> Location: /CountHits
> The url trying to be counted is invalid.
>
> The URL was;
>
> http://www.fed.gov.au/CountHits?redirectTo=http://www.gold.gov.au/
>
>
> I am using Mozilla 1.1 under MacOS X with cookies disabled.
>
> Please email a response to the address listed above.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Carl.
>
> Submit=Submit
> subject=
> name=user
> action=submitFeedback
>
> Server protocol: HTTP/1.0
> HTTP From:
> Remote host: 203.51.31.214
> Remote IP address: 203.51.31.214
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
>
> The information transmitted is for the use of the intended recipient 
> only
> and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged material.  Any
> review, re-transmission, disclosure, dissemination or other use of, or
> taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
> entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may result 
> in
> severe penalties.  If you have received this e-mail in error please 
> notify
> the Security Adviser of the Department of Communications, Information
> Technology and the Arts, telephone (02) 6271-1880 and delete all copies 
> of
> this transmission together with any attachments.
>
> _________________________________________________________________________

----------
For Link list information see http://sunsite.anu.edu.au/link/

From eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au  Mon Sep  2 13:37:42 2002
From: eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au (Eric Scheid)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 23:37:42 +1000
Subject: [LINK] www.fed.gov.au requires cookies.
Message-ID: <200209021337.g82Dbl9v013171@anu.edu.au>

From: Carl Makin <carl@stagecraft.cx> (2/9/02 8:12 PM)

>I really can't see any reason for the www.fed.gov.au to 
>require the use of cookies for any reason.

It's a session cookie, as is apparent by (1) the fact it expires at the 
end of the session, and (2) it is named JSESSIONID.

I guess you think the fed.gov.au folks shouldn't care just how people 
actually use their website, what the common entry pages are, what the 
common exit pages are, whether people abandon their visit after trying 
the search function or viewing the site map (ie. not following any links 
from there), ...

Dang it all, they should just slap up some HTML pages and hope they've 
got it right. If they don't then tough bikkies. You don't honestly expect 
them to gather information which informs their future development 
decisions, surely?

e.

______________________________________________________________________
eric@ironclad.net.au                 i r o n c l a d   n e t w o r k s
information architect                      http://www.ironclad.net.au/


----------
For Link list information see http://sunsite.anu.edu.au/link/

From grove@zeta.org.au  Mon Sep  2 13:59:30 2002
From: grove@zeta.org.au (Rachel Polanskis)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 23:59:30 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [LINK] Legal Notification (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.40.0209021222170.13563-100000@isis.virago.org.au>

Here's a new scam - it looks very genuine.
They will have to sue me to get the $50.


rachel

-- 
Rachel Polanskis                 Kingswood, Greater Western Sydney, Australia
grove@zeta.org.au                http://www.zeta.org.au/~grove/grove.html
      "People don't say sorry in this country" - Max Connors (Seachange)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 13:23:25 -1000
From: "Anthony Baratta, CISSP" <info@isc2.org>
To: grove@zeta.org.au
Subject: Legal Notification

Legal Notification



You are herby informed that (under the privacy act), the International Information System Security Certification Consortium (ISC)2  has sold your information including,

Name ,

E-Mail address,

Residential address,

Credit and savings information,

Social Security information,

and Occupation details.

This information has been sold to a third Party \ Parties and this E-mail serves as notification for such action.

This information was sold under the premise for marketing and research.

Under the privacy act you may request to see in writing any information that we have about you. Please write to the following address with a self addressed envelope.



(ISC)2

860 Worcester Rd.,Ste 101

Framingham, Ma 01702

U.S.A



If you have any questions about the third Party \ Parties please inquire with them. The International Information System Security Certification Consortium (ISC)2 is no longer  responsible for the information sold. (ISC)2 Will hold no responsibility for damages and loss suffered by the reader of this E-mail. (ISC)2 is not responsible for the actions of third party companies.



Upon written request we will consider deleting records that we currently hold about you. A processing fee of $ 10.00 will apply.

Please make out this check to (ISC)2 and an application form will be mailed to you in order to complete this request.

Please visit our web site for more information about our organization



http://www.isc2.org



If you decline this offer by the 31 Sep 2002 a charge of $50 will be deducted from your account. This charge will cover services that our organization provides to secure the internet.



Thank you

Manager of Professional Programs

Anthony Baratta, CISSP

abaratta@isc2.org



Contact E-Mail  info@isc2.org




----------
For Link list information see http://sunsite.anu.edu.au/link/

From MarketingTools0901@yahoo.com  Mon Sep  2 17:24:53 2002
From: MarketingTools0901@yahoo.com (Marketing-Products)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 03:24:53 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [LINK] Lists: Publicity - Libraries - Bookstores - Film Producers - Art Galleries - Record Stores - Custom (more)
Message-ID: <200209021724.g82HOr9v006169@anu.edu.au>

UNLIMITED USE LISTS . . . 
--------------------------------------------------------------
NEW LISTS: PBS STATIONS, UK MEDIA, POLITICAL MEDIA,
NEW AGE MEDIA, UK LIBRARIES, SCIENTIFIC JOURNALS,
FILM & TV PRODUCERS, ART PUBLISHERS, LITERARY AGENTS, MENS MEDIA.
--------------------------------------------------------------
IF WE DO NOT HAVE THE LIST YOU NEED, WE WILL COMPILE A CUSTOM LIST
ACCORDING TO YOUR SPECIFICATIONS . . . Lists take 5-7 business days.
Custom orders accepted on first-come, first-served basis.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Call to place your order or for more information.

US & CANADA TOLL-FREE NUMBER: 888 330 4919  (24/7)

If you would like more information via email, please write us
at sendlistinfo@netscape.net - Thank you.
--------------------------------------------------------------
LIBRARIES

LISTS INCLUDE: Name, Address, phone, fax and email address
(when available).
AVAILABLE FORMATS: Excel Spreadsheet & Text Database

1,200 U.S. Public Libraries (Largest Headquarters) WITH EMAIL ADDRESSES - $109
1,200 U.S. Public Libraries (Largest Headquarters) - $89
1,000 U.S. University Libraries (Largest) WITH EMAIL ADDRESSES - $89
1,000 U.S. University Libraries (Largest) - $69
400+ Community College Libraries WITH EMAIL ADDRESSES - $59
400+ Community College Libraries - $49
1,093 U.S. K-12 Private School Libraries WITH EMAIL ADDRESSES - $109
1,093 U.S. K-12 Private School Libraries - $89
200  U.K. Public Libraries WITH EMAIL ADDRESSES - $49
200  U.K. Public Libraries - $39
250  U.K. University Libraries WITH EMAIL ADDRESSES - $49
250  U.K. University Libraries - $39
528  Australian Public Libraries WITH EMAIL ADDRESSES - $79
528  Australian Public Libraries - $69
279  Australian College & Univ. Libraries WITH EMAIL ADDRESSES - $49
279  Australian College & Univ. Libraries  - $39
200  Canadian Libraries WITH EMAIL ADDRESSES - $49
200  Canadian Libraries  - $39
100  New Zealand Libraries WITH EMAIL ADDRESSES - $39
100  New Zealand Libraries - $29
1,000 U.S. Medical Libraries -  $79
313  U.S. Law Libraries - $49
193  U.S. Religious Libraries - $39
----------------------------------------------
BOOKSTORES

LIST INCLUDES: Name, Address, phone, fax and email address
(when available).
AVAILABLE FORMATS: Excel Spreadsheets & Text Databases

1,900+ Independent Bookstores WITH EMAIL ADDRESSES - $149
1,900+ Independent Bookstores - $129
1,900+ College Bookstores WITH EMAIL ADDRESSES - $149
1,900+ College Bookstores - $129
3,000+ Christian Bookstores WITH EMAIL ADDRESSES - $169
3,000+ Christian Bookstores - $149
2,200+ Chain Bookstores - $129
575+ Book Distributors & Chain HQs - WITH EMAIL ADDRESSES - $59
575+ Book Distributors & Chain HQs - $ 49
675 Canadian General Bookstores WITH EMAIL ADDRESSES - $69
675 Canadian General Bookstores - $59
175 Canadian University Bookstores - WITH EMAIL ADDRESSES - $39
175 Canadian University Bookstores  - $29
300 New Age Bookstores - $49
125 African-American Bookstores - $29
You will be able to download your lists WITHIN MINUTES.
-----------------------------------------------
MEDIA LISTS

LISTS INCLUDE: Contact Name, Title/Position, Company, Address,
Phone, Fax and Email Address (when available)

AVAILABLE FORMATS: Excel Spreadsheet and Microsoft Word

PBS Stations                        (800+ Contacts)   - $99
Scientific Journals                 (500 Contacts)    - $99
UK Media List                       (500 Contacts)    - $99
Political Media List                (1,100+ Contacts) - $149
Canadian National Media             (590+ Contacts)   - $99
New Age Media                       (250+ Contacts)   - $99
Mens Interest Media                 (400 Contacts)    - $99
Womens Interest Media               (1,350+ Contacts) - $149
Teen Interest Media                 (216 Contacts)    - $99
Eclectic Newsweeklies               (575+ Contacts)   - $99
College Radio Stations              (520+ Contacts)   - $99
Local TV News (North Region)        (840+ Contacts)   - $99
Local TV News (Midwest Region)      (870+ Contacts)   - $99
Local TV News (West Region)         (890+ Contacts)   - $99
Local TV News (South Region)        (1,100+ Contacts) - $129
Local TV News (All Regions)         (3,700+ Contacts) - $249
Drive Time Radio - Top 50 Markets   (300+ Contacts)   - $69
Australian National Media List      (360+ Contacts)   - $99
Drive Time Radio - Top 100 Markets  (600 Contacts)    - $99
Newspapers - Top 100 Papers         (1,100+ Contacts) - $99
National Media List                 (1000+ Contacts)  - $99
Sex & Relationships Media List      (402 Contacts)    - $99
Music Industry Media List           (1,142 Contacts)  - $149
Fashion & Beauty List               (1,400 Contacts)  - $149
Motion Picture, Film  & Video       (695 Contacts)    - $99
National Public Radio               (265 Contacts)    - $99
Sports Media List                   (427 Contacts)    - $99
African American Media List         (1500 Contacts)   - $149
Environmental Media List            (763 Contacts)    - $99
Gay and Lesbian Media List          (260 Contacts)    - $99
Book Industry Media List            (502 Contacts)    - $99
Christian Media List                (370 Contacts)    - $99
Family & Parenting Media List       (789 Contacts)    - $99
College Newspaper Contacts          (1,400+ Contacts) - $99
-------------------------------------------------
TV & FILM PRODUCERS, DIRECTORS, DEVELOPMENT EXECS, (MORE)

3,000+ Contacts - $299 (Entire List)
800+ Producers Only - $99
650+ Development, Creative & Acquisitions Contacts Only - $89

Lists Include: Contact Name, Title, Company, Address, Phone and Fax Number
Available Formats: Excel Spreadsheet and Text Database

PUBLISHING COMPANY CONTACTS
1,700+ U.S. Publishing Contacts - $149
300 Art Publishing Contacts - $49
List Includes: Contact Name, Title, Company, Address, Phone, Number,
Fax Number and Email Address (when available)
Available Formats: Excel Spreadsheet and Text Database

LITERARY AGENTS
300+ Contacts - $59
List Includes: Contact Name, Title, Company, Address, Phone, Number,
Fax Number and Email Address (when available)
Available Formats: Excel Spreadsheet and Text Database

MUSIC AGENTS/MANAGERS
150+ Contacts - $39
List Includes: Contact Name, Title, Company, Address, Phone,
Fax Number and Email Address (when available)
Available Formats: Excel Spreadsheet and Text Database

Lists Include: Store Name, Address and Phone Number
Available Formats: Excel Spreadsheet and Text Database

MUSIC STORE LISTS
997  Independent Music Stores (Midwest) - $79
1215 Independent Music Stores (South)   - $89
1444 Independent Music Stores (East)    - $89
1355 Independent Music Stores (West)    - $89
5008 Independent Music Stores (National)- $249

Lists Include: Store Name, Address and Phone Number
Available Formats: Excel Spreadsheet and Text Database

ART GALLERY LISTS
US National List WITH EMAIL ADDRESSES: $169 (1090 Galleries)
US National List: $149 (1090 Galleries)
Southern US:   $39 (140 Galleries)
Central  US:   $39 (150 Galleries)
Western  US:   $69 (272 Galleries)
Eastern  US:   $89 (530 Galleries)
United Kingdom:   $69  (230 Galleries)
Canada:           $49  (165 Galleries)
Australia:        $29  (50 Galleries)

Lists Include: Gallery Name, Address, Phone Number and Fax Number
Available Formats: Excel Spreadsheet and Text Database

OUR GUARANTEE: We will gladly refund postage (up to 34 cents per item)
for any undeliverable addresses over 5% of the total list. We will also
correct the undeliverable contacts and issue you an updated list.

------------------------
You will be able to download your lists WITHIN MINUTES.

Call to place your order or for more information.

US & CANADA TOLL-FREE NUMBER: 888 330 4919  (24/7)

If you would like more information via email, please write us at
sendlistinfo@netscape.net - Thank you.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
To be removed from any future mailings, please send a message with
your email address in the subject line to PublicityRemoval@netscape.net.
Requests will be processed within 48 hours at that address only.
Apologies for any inconvience. Thank you.

----------
For Link list information see http://sunsite.anu.edu.au/link/

From bobb@soxkat.com  Mon Sep  2 21:24:22 2002
From: bobb@soxkat.com (Bob Bain)
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 07:24:22 +1000
Subject: [LINK] Legal Notification (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.40.0209021222170.13563-100000@isis.virago.org.au>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.40.0209021222170.13563-100000@isis.virago.org.au>
Message-ID: <pjl7nuchdlfll5h053m23c9ouhjcst8kge@4ax.com>

On Mon, 2 Sep 2002 23:59:30 +1000 (EST), rachel wrote:

>Here's a new scam - it looks very genuine.
>They will have to sue me to get the $50.

 Ah.  Thanks.  I was worrying about this as the following indicates an
organisation of this name (ISC)2, Inc. had charged my credit card for
$450.  I filed it in the "worry about it but be cautious" department.

*+*+*+*+*+*  THIS IS NOT A MAILING LIST  *+*+*+*+*+* THIS IS NOT A
MAILING LIST  *+*+*+*+*+* 

(ISC)2, Inc.

 This email is being sent to confirm that you have submitted an 
 application to sit for the CISSP examination.

 Your confirmation number is 16225
 
 You have applied for the following examination:
 
CISSP 
 
 The registration fee of USD 450 was charged to your credit card.
 
 PLEASE PRINT AND SIGN:
 
 By signing this admittance letter you acknowledge that you have 
 read and agree to abide by the CISSP Code of Ethics, that all the 
 information that you have provided is accurate and factual to the 
 best of your knowledge, and that you will maintain confidential 
 all examination related materials provided to you during the 
 examination.
 
 ____________________________________________________________
 Signature
 
 
 ____________________________________
 Date
 
 Please remember to bring a copy of this confirmation notice 
 to the examination. This will be your admittance letter.
 
 If you have additional questions or need further information, 
 please visit our web site at www.isc2.org or contact us at 
 888.333.4458 (North America only) or 727-738-8657, or 
 727-738-9548.  Our office is staffed Monday through Friday, 
 8:30 am - 5:00 pm ET.
 
 If you have received this message in error, please 
 forward it to the Registrar for investigation.

 Please keep a copy of this message for future reference. 

 Thank you.

 Registrar
 registrar@isc2.org

----------
Bob Bain
bobb@soxkat.com
www.soxkat.com/~bobb
Sydney Australia
----------
For Link list information see http://sunsite.anu.edu.au/link/

From Richard.Chirgwin@informa.com.au  Mon Sep  2 21:40:21 2002
From: Richard.Chirgwin@informa.com.au (Chirgwin, Richard)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 07:40:21 +1000 
Subject: [LINK] Hard-to find information (part 1)
Message-ID: <9BD4AE8C2EB1D311982700508BA2498902A4DB73@EXCHANGE_AU>

"In due course" in this case probably means when the problems of identity,
authenticity and security are solved. "When hell freezes over" would do just
as well. 

Were it me, I would remove the promise, but then "real soon now" has been a
feature of this industry ever since MS invented the expression (.NET Server
is now .NET Server 2003. Oh well, I should be grateful Bill didn't just ask
the UN to rename next year as 2002.2 ).

RC

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Malcolm Miles [mailto:mgm-ns@tardis.net]
> Sent: Monday, 2 September 2002 17:56
> To: link@www.anu.edu.au
> Subject: Re: [LINK] Hard-to find information (part 1)
> 
> 
> On Mon, 2 Sep 2002 10:56:09 +1000, you wrote:
> 
> >Online applications for Business Names will become available
> >in due course.
> 
> And when is "in due course"? This statement has been on the Web site
> for as long as I can remember. Web pages that promise things "real
> soon" are a pet hate of mine.
> 
> -- 
> Best wishes,
> Malcolm
> 
> ----------
> For Link list information see http://sunsite.anu.edu.au/link/
> 
----------
For Link list information see http://sunsite.anu.edu.au/link/

From Richard.Chirgwin@informa.com.au  Mon Sep  2 21:50:29 2002
From: Richard.Chirgwin@informa.com.au (Chirgwin, Richard)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 07:50:29 +1000 
Subject: [LINK] www.fed.gov.au requires cookies.
Message-ID: <9BD4AE8C2EB1D311982700508BA2498902A4DB74@EXCHANGE_AU>

I don't believe in a religious war about cookies, especially when it's so
easy to deal with them; but surely a cookie is not the only way such
information can be gathered?

My other observation is this: if people are using cookies to understand user
behaviour so they can improve the user experience - then why are the designs
still so atrocious? It's rather like the Nutri-Matics drink dispenser -
analyse the user down to the molecules, but the drink is always "almost, but
not entirely unlike tea".

Surely the horrid design, the almost nauseous colour scheme, the small
fonts, the dada-esque eclecticism of  the "news and issues" panel and so on
aren't the result of careful planning and analysis? 

Richard Chirgwin

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eric Scheid [mailto:eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au]
> Sent: Monday, 2 September 2002 23:38
> To: Link List
> Subject: Re: [LINK] www.fed.gov.au requires cookies.
> 
> 
> From: Carl Makin <carl@stagecraft.cx> (2/9/02 8:12 PM)
> 
> >I really can't see any reason for the www.fed.gov.au to 
> >require the use of cookies for any reason.
> 
> It's a session cookie, as is apparent by (1) the fact it 
> expires at the 
> end of the session, and (2) it is named JSESSIONID.
> 
> I guess you think the fed.gov.au folks shouldn't care just how people 
> actually use their website, what the common entry pages are, what the 
> common exit pages are, whether people abandon their visit 
> after trying 
> the search function or viewing the site map (ie. not 
> following any links 
> from there), ...
> 
> Dang it all, they should just slap up some HTML pages and 
> hope they've 
> got it right. If they don't then tough bikkies. You don't 
> honestly expect 
> them to gather information which informs their future development 
> decisions, surely?
> 
> e.
> 
> ______________________________________________________________________
> eric@ironclad.net.au                 i r o n c l a d   n e t w o r k s
> information architect                      http://www.ironclad.net.au/
> 
> 
> ----------
> For Link list information see http://sunsite.anu.edu.au/link/
> 
----------
For Link list information see http://sunsite.anu.edu.au/link/

From lannet@lannet.com.au  Mon Sep  2 22:01:29 2002
From: lannet@lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 08:01:29 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [LINK] Legal Notification (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.40.0209021222170.13563-100000@isis.virago.org.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0209030759010.1301-100000@int.lannet.com.au>

On Mon, 2 Sep 2002, Rachel Polanskis wrote:

> Here's a new scam - it looks very genuine.
> They will have to sue me to get the $50.
>

Damned chop bar has dropped the forwarded message, but it's interesting to
note that there must still be a very large number of mugs out there to
have organisations persist in this type of scam.

BTW, from their privacy policy statement:

"Personally identifiable information on individual users will not be sold
or otherwise transferred to unaffiliated third parties without the
approval of the user. "

That seems to fly in the face of the email.

-- 
Howard.
LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people
Contact detail at http://www.lannetlinux.com
"Flatter government, not fatter government." - me
 Get rid of the Australian states.

----------
For Link list information see http://sunsite.anu.edu.au/link/

From ian@topic.com.au  Mon Sep  2 22:04:59 2002
From: ian@topic.com.au (Ian Macintosh)
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 08:04:59 +1000
Subject: [LINK] www.fed.gov.au requires cookies.
References: <200209021337.g82Dbl9v013171@anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <3D73E08B.3D50B78E@topic.com.au>

Eric,

Why do they have to use cookies to do tracking? What about sessionids in
the URL, or log file analysis, or ignore tracking those users who have
cookies turned off?

<rant>
I have also complained to them that their site is BROKEN (aka must use
cookies).  There are NUMEROUS ways to track people through the site
without cookies, and to have such a high profile site effectively
innaccessable to a number of their users because of a random decision is
preposterous.  They told me that there are "no plans to develop a cookie
free site in the future", and I replied that the site was therefore
useless to me.

Having once run this site (before the current incarnation) I am highly
disappointed at the outcome </rant>

Ian Macintosh

Eric Scheid wrote:
> 
> From: Carl Makin <carl@stagecraft.cx> (2/9/02 8:12 PM)
> 
> >I really can't see any reason for the www.fed.gov.au to
> >require the use of cookies for any reason.
> 
> It's a session cookie, as is apparent by (1) the fact it expires at the
> end of the session, and (2) it is named JSESSIONID.
> 
> I guess you think the fed.gov.au folks shouldn't care just how people
> actually use their website, what the common entry pages are, what the
> common exit pages are, whether people abandon their visit after trying
> the search function or viewing the site map (ie. not following any links
> from there), ...
> 
> Dang it all, they should just slap up some HTML pages and hope they've
> got it right. If they don't then tough bikkies. You don't honestly expect
> them to gather information which informs their future development
> decisions, surely?
> 
> e.
> 
> ______________________________________________________________________
> eric@ironclad.net.au                 i r o n c l a d   n e t w o r k s
> information architect                      http://www.ironclad.net.au/
> 
> ----------
> For Link list information see http://sunsite.anu.edu.au/link/
----------
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From lannet@lannet.com.au  Mon Sep  2 22:05:25 2002
From: lannet@lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 08:05:25 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [LINK] Hard-to find information (part 1)
In-Reply-To: <9BD4AE8C2EB1D311982700508BA2498902A4DB73@EXCHANGE_AU>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0209030803230.1301-100000@int.lannet.com.au>

On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, Chirgwin, Richard wrote:

> Oh well, I should be grateful Bill didn't just ask
> the UN to rename next year as 2002.2 ).

That reminds me that a few years back the EU rewrote the calendar so that
they could make a contentious decision before an end of month (or year)
deadline - they just added extra days to the end of the effective month.

Stupid politicians.

-- 
Howard.
LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people
Contact detail at http://www.lannetlinux.com
"Flatter government, not fatter government." - me
 Get rid of the Australian states.

----------
For Link list information see http://sunsite.anu.edu.au/link/

From Richard.Chirgwin@informa.com.au  Mon Sep  2 22:15:24 2002
From: Richard.Chirgwin@informa.com.au (Chirgwin, Richard)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 08:15:24 +1000 
Subject: [LINK] Hype alert...
Message-ID: <9BD4AE8C2EB1D311982700508BA2498902A4DB78@EXCHANGE_AU>

Linkers,

We're about to have this hyped to us; it's already doing the rounds of the
less critical, more credulous media to get people saying "wow"! This is
usually the precursor to float-and-run...

www.meshnetworks.com
Let's take a quick look at the "About" page:
>MeshNetworks was founded in January 2000 to commercialize a cutting edge 
>wireless technology developed for military applications. 
DING! Military mystery always gets the kiddies' eyes wide.

>MeshNetworks is a private, technology oriented corporation that has
received over $27 
>million in funding from private investors, including Apax Partners, Redwood

>Ventures, ITT, 3Com and BancBoston.
>
>Altogether, more than $170 million and six years of development have been
invested 
>in MeshNetworks' solution. It supports the simultaneous use of Voice over
Internet 
>Protocol (VoIP), data, and multimedia at high data rates

[interjection] So what? We've just proven that this is better than RS-232.
And thrown in some buzzwords because the investor press can't tell sh*t from
sugar.

> - with or without network infrastructure. 
OK. We make a network without network infrastructure. If the claim is that
members of the network can form part of the network infrastructure, okay.
But a statement like this is just snakeoil.

>MeshNetworks technology leverages each subscriber device to enhance the
network, 
>by enabling it to act as an intelligent router and repeater for other
devices in 
>the network.

Which is why P2P has replaced conventional Internet infrastructure? 

The point of this post is that it's nearly inevitable that this will get the
usual syndication coverage in the .au IT media; and that the hypesters will
not be asked to support any of their statements...

Richard Chirgwin
----------
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From mgm-ns@tardis.net  Mon Sep  2 22:18:35 2002
From: mgm-ns@tardis.net (Malcolm Miles)
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 08:18:35 +1000
Subject: [LINK] Hard-to find information (part 1)
In-Reply-To: <9BD4AE8C2EB1D311982700508BA2498902A4DB73@EXCHANGE_AU>
References: <9BD4AE8C2EB1D311982700508BA2498902A4DB73@EXCHANGE_AU>
Message-ID: <6qo7nuoilo0o64nvvp9ec544tig0bv29s6@4ax.com>

On Tue, 3 Sep 2002 07:40:21 +1000 , you wrote:

>Were it me, I would remove the promise, but then "real soon now" has been a
>feature of this industry ever since MS invented the expression

MS didn't invent this one. According to the Jargon File:

http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/Real-Soon-Now.html

[orig. from SF's fanzine community, popularized by Jerry Pournelle's
column in "BYTE"] 1. Supposed to be available (or fixed, or cheap, or
whatever) real soon now according to somebody, but the speaker is
quite skeptical. 2. When one's gods, fates, or other time commitments
permit one to get to it (in other words, don't hold your breath).
Often abbreviated RSN. Compare copious free time.

-- 
Best wishes,
Malcolm

----------
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From jwhit@PrimeNet.Com  Mon Sep  2 22:11:29 2002
From: jwhit@PrimeNet.Com (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 08:11:29 +1000
Subject: [LINK] www.fed.gov.au requires cookies.
In-Reply-To: <6E264DCE-BE5C-11D6-ACC9-0050E445BE6D@stagecraft.cx>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20020903080705.0227c0e0@pop.primenet.com>

At 08:12 PM 2/09/02 +1000, Carl Makin wrote:
>I automatically disable cookies except for certain known sites when 
>browsing.  I really can't see any reason for the www.fed.gov.au to require 
>the use of cookies for any reason.

The ABC tries to use cookies on several bits, but doesn't seem to block 
access if you refuse.  I use a medium setting, allowing cookies back to the 
same server as the originating website, but alert me if they are to a 
different place. I generally say 'no' for the third party cookies.

I've also found some sites that won't work if you refuse js loads.  That 
one makes me angry, too.  Why should I allow things that are programs to 
interact with my machine?

Sadly, I finally broke down and loaded the macromedia flash program [waves 
at Ash] in order to get info from a site where I'm trying to get changes 
done in their organisation [long story].  The motivation was to get the 
'goods'  on them, so I had to play that flash game.  Doesn't make me any 
more disposed to be a 'nice guy' when the time comes.

Is there a competition at the moment to try and piss off the most consumers?

Jan


JLWhitaker Associates
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
jwhit@primenet.com  --  http://www.primenet.com/~jwhit/whitentr.htm


----------
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From jwhit@PrimeNet.Com  Mon Sep  2 22:42:31 2002
From: jwhit@PrimeNet.Com (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 08:42:31 +1000
Subject: [LINK] www.fed.gov.au requires cookies.
In-Reply-To: <9BD4AE8C2EB1D311982700508BA2498902A4DB74@EXCHANGE_AU>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20020903084137.02284d70@pop.primenet.com>

At 07:50 AM 3/09/02 +1000, Chirgwin, Richard wrote:
>I don't believe in a religious war about cookies, especially when it's so
>easy to deal with them; but surely a cookie is not the only way such
>information can be gathered?

We don't use any cookies on Agrigate.  We just count hits per page.  If the 
page is used, it stays.  If the page isn't used, we take a look and see if 
we really need it.  quite simple.

Jan


JLWhitaker Associates
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
jwhit@primenet.com  --  http://www.primenet.com/~jwhit/whitentr.htm


----------
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From ian@topic.com.au  Mon Sep  2 23:04:25 2002
From: ian@topic.com.au (Ian Macintosh)
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 09:04:25 +1000
Subject: [LINK] www.fed.gov.au requires cookies.
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20020903080705.0227c0e0@pop.primenet.com>
Message-ID: <3D73EE79.3088ACFF@topic.com.au>



Jan Whitaker wrote:
> 
> At 08:12 PM 2/09/02 +1000, Carl Makin wrote:
> >I automatically disable cookies except for certain known sites when
> >browsing.  I really can't see any reason for the www.fed.gov.au to require
> >the use of cookies for any reason.
> 
> The ABC tries to use cookies on several bits, but doesn't seem to block
> access if you refuse.  I use a medium setting, allowing cookies back to the
> same server as the originating website, but alert me if they are to a
> different place. I generally say 'no' for the third party cookies.
> 
> I've also found some sites that won't work if you refuse js loads.  That
> one makes me angry, too.  Why should I allow things that are programs to
> interact with my machine?
> 
Of more annoyance are fallacious statements on the fed.gov.au site like
(from their about page):
"It is the Commonwealth's aim to provide equitable access to information
and the variety of access approaches available on this site will allow
you to choose the method of finding information that best suits you. The
site has been developed with useability and accessibility principles as
the main drivers for design. The incorporation of a common look and feel
across the site with your needs and feedback providing guidance on
specific features has resulted in a user-centred design where your input
and feedback have real impact on development. "

The above statement has not been achieved (if it ever was the aim). 
They have been told numerous times to allow non-cookie based access to
the site but are patently ignoring user feedback.  I would suggest that
we (users) do not have any "real impact on development".

No more rants from me on this topic (well at least for a while) ;-)

Ian Macintosh
----------
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From jwhit@PrimeNet.Com  Mon Sep  2 23:01:02 2002
From: jwhit@PrimeNet.Com (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 09:01:02 +1000
Subject: [LINK] Hard-to find information (part 1)
In-Reply-To: <OF261DA7CD.12293284-ONCA256C28.0002E796@dsd.vic.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20020903085952.0227bec0@pop.primenet.com>

At 10:56 AM 2/09/02 +1000, jeff.evans@iird.vic.gov.au wrote:
>Renewing and Searching a Business Name - now online
>===================================================
>You can now renew your Victorian Business Name registration
>or search to see if a name is registered online. Each business
>name has its own business registration number. To use this free
>service go to
>< http://online.justice.vic.gov.au >

wow!!  This is excellent!  It's fast and it got me what I needed to know in 
about 30 seconds!!!  I also found out my registration is current to 2004, 
so no worries.  :-)

congrats, Jeff, if this is your work.  I punted and let the JS run.....

Jan


JLWhitaker Associates
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
jwhit@primenet.com  --  http://www.primenet.com/~jwhit/whitentr.htm


----------
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From tom.worthington@tomw.net.au  Sun Sep  1 23:41:27 2002
From: tom.worthington@tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington)
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 09:41:27 +1000
Subject: [LINK] Broadband technology for Western Australia
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020902092045.02c24360@tomw.net.au>

This appeared in the weekend newspapers. I couldn't find it on-line and 
thought it may be of interest:

---

           Government of Western Australia
               Expressions of Interest
          South West Development Commission

                Broadband technology
           South West of Western Australia

  An opportunity to plan and develop an integrated broadband
    network in one of Australia's fastest growing regions.

The South West of Western Australia is a region of enormous potential. With 
a population growth rate at twice the national average and a gross regional 
product of $4.6 billion it's a great place in which to live and invest.

The South West Development Commission is inviting ideas and views from 
telecommunications providers on how they might participate in network and 
service development in the region, including models for delivery and financing.

There will be an opportunity to present ideas to the region's leading 
business, community and government stakeholders on a 
commercial-in-confidence basis. The information obtained will be used to 
provide advice to the State Government on the future of telecommunications 
in the region.

This is an opportunity to be part of a region gaining international 
recognition for its lifestyle and economic vibrancy. It is fast-becoming a 
region of excellence in information technology.

For further details contact: Mr. Ashley Clements, Executive Officer, South 
west Online, South West Development Commission, Telephone: 9792 2000, 
Facsimile: 9791 3223, E-mail: aclements@swdc.wa.gov.au

Submission close: Tuesday, 24 September 2002.

---

NOTE: Transcribed from paper copy and so may contain errors.

PS: See the IT industry attraction project report I prepared for the Great 
Southern Region of Western Australia (next to the South West Region) at: 
http://www.tomw.net.au/gsr

The South West Development Commission's web site is at 
<http://swdc.wa.gov.au>, but the search facility didn't find  "Broadband".



Tom Worthington FACS tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150
Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309
http://www.tomw.net.au PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617

----------
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From lannet@lannet.com.au  Mon Sep  2 23:36:08 2002
From: lannet@lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 09:36:08 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [LINK] www.fed.gov.au requires cookies.
In-Reply-To: <3D73EE79.3088ACFF@topic.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0209030934310.1301-100000@int.lannet.com.au>

Are you sure that you are correct here.

I just tried with Konqueror with cookies rejected and had no problems.  I
then tried with lynx and rejected the JSESSIONID cookie and still got in.

Either they have fixed it or it wasn't a problem in  the first place.


On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, Ian Macintosh wrote:

>
>
> Jan Whitaker wrote:
> >
> > At 08:12 PM 2/09/02 +1000, Carl Makin wrote:
> > >I automatically disable cookies except for certain known sites when
> > >browsing.  I really can't see any reason for the www.fed.gov.au to require
> > >the use of cookies for any reason.
> >
> > The ABC tries to use cookies on several bits, but doesn't seem to block
> > access if you refuse.  I use a medium setting, allowing cookies back to the
> > same server as the originating website, but alert me if they are to a
> > different place. I generally say 'no' for the third party cookies.
> >
> > I've also found some sites that won't work if you refuse js loads.  That
> > one makes me angry, too.  Why should I allow things that are programs to
> > interact with my machine?
> >
> Of more annoyance are fallacious statements on the fed.gov.au site like
> (from their about page):
> "It is the Commonwealth's aim to provide equitable access to information
> and the variety of access approaches available on this site will allow
> you to choose the method of finding information that best suits you. The
> site has been developed with useability and accessibility principles as
> the main drivers for design. The incorporation of a common look and feel
> across the site with your needs and feedback providing guidance on
> specific features has resulted in a user-centred design where your input
> and feedback have real impact on development. "
>
> The above statement has not been achieved (if it ever was the aim).
> They have been told numerous times to allow non-cookie based access to
> the site but are patently ignoring user feedback.  I would suggest that
> we (users) do not have any "real impact on development".
>
> No more rants from me on this topic (well at least for a while) ;-)
>
> Ian Macintosh
> ----------
> For Link list information see http://sunsite.anu.edu.au/link/
>

-- 
Howard.
LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people
Contact detail at http://www.lannetlinux.com
"Flatter government, not fatter government." - me
 Get rid of the Australian states.

----------
For Link list information see http://sunsite.anu.edu.au/link/

From carl@xena.ipaustralia.gov.au  Mon Sep  2 23:49:02 2002
From: carl@xena.ipaustralia.gov.au (Carl Makin)
Date: 03 Sep 2002 09:49:02 +1000
Subject: [LINK] www.fed.gov.au requires cookies.
In-Reply-To: <200209021337.g82Dbl9v013171@anu.edu.au>
References: <200209021337.g82Dbl9v013171@anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <1031010542.31422.13.camel@newton.aipo.gov.au>

On Mon, 2002-09-02 at 23:37, Eric Scheid wrote:

> From: Carl Makin <carl@stagecraft.cx> (2/9/02 8:12 PM)

> >I really can't see any reason for the www.fed.gov.au to 
> >require the use of cookies for any reason.

> It's a session cookie, as is apparent by (1) the fact it expires at the 
> end of the session, and (2) it is named JSESSIONID.

Yes it is a session cookie. But it is still a cookie and the
functionality of the site should not depend on it working.

> I guess you think the fed.gov.au folks shouldn't care just how people 
> actually use their website, what the common entry pages are, what the 

There are plenty of other ways to generate that information without
mandating cookies. 

> common exit pages are, whether people abandon their visit after trying 
> Dang it all, they should just slap up some HTML pages and hope they've 
> got it right. If they don't then tough bikkies. You don't honestly expect 
> them to gather information which informs their future development 
> decisions, surely?

No, I expect them to use appropriate and non-invasive methods to collect
their statistics, and since there are acceptable alternatives they
shouldn't be forcing visitors to have cookies enabled.

It's not about whether fed.gov.au are abusing cookies, it is that by
forcing people to use cookies they are actively helping less reputable
organisations violate my privacy.  I don't enable cookies by default,
even for .gov.au organisations as I can't be certain that I'm really
talking to that organisation, at least until after the page loads (and
perhaps even then).

Paranoid?  Yes probably, but I am concerned about the steady erosion of
my privacy in this society and while there isn't much I can do overall,
I will do what I can where I can.


Carl.

----------
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From carl@xena.ipaustralia.gov.au  Tue Sep  3 00:06:03 2002
From: carl@xena.ipaustralia.gov.au (Carl Makin)
Date: 03 Sep 2002 10:06:03 +1000
Subject: [LINK] www.fed.gov.au requires cookies.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0209030934310.1301-100000@int.lannet.com.au>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0209030934310.1301-100000@int.lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <1031011563.31422.27.camel@newton.aipo.gov.au>

On Tue, 2002-09-03 at 09:36, Howard Lowndes wrote:

> Are you sure that you are correct here.

> I just tried with Konqueror with cookies rejected and had no problems.  I
> then tried with lynx and rejected the JSESSIONID cookie and still got in.
> 
> Either they have fixed it or it wasn't a problem in  the first place.

The problem is when you click on a link to go to another site.  The
redirection script throws an exception if cookies arn't enabled.

The only reason I can think of is they want to narrow down click through
traffic to individual people, ie they want to know if the same person
clicks on multiple links.  There are other ways to do this.  


Carl.

----------
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From cas@taz.net.au  Tue Sep  3 00:15:06 2002
From: cas@taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:15:06 +1000
Subject: [LINK] www.fed.gov.au requires cookies.
In-Reply-To: <3D73E08B.3D50B78E@topic.com.au>
References: <200209021337.g82Dbl9v013171@anu.edu.au> <3D73E08B.3D50B78E@topic.com.au>
Message-ID: <20020903001506.GF29543@taz.net.au>

On Tue, Sep 03, 2002 at 08:04:59AM +1000, Ian Macintosh wrote:
> Why do they have to use cookies to do tracking? What about sessionids
> in the URL, 

because session-ids in URLs are both stupid and ugly. they also break
the ability to bookmark a site.

cookies aren't inherently evil.  it's the way that they are used which
is potentially a problem.

AFAICT, www.fed.gov.au doesn't appear to be using them in a
privacy-invading manner.  click-tracking within a site is harmless.

cookie-phobia is at least as dangerous as cookies themselves, especially
if you end up deluding yourself that your privacy is "secure" just
because you have disabled cookies.


> or log file analysis, 

contrary to popular belief, web-server log files don't and can't tell
you anything about how many people are using a site, or what pages they
visit, or in what order.  at best you can make a rough *guess* at those
details based on the logs.

the only information in the logs is (roughly, depending on the brand of
web server and how it is configured) the client IP address or hostname,
the login details if the page/site requires a login, the date and time,
the URL requested, a success/failure code, the bytes transferred, and
optionally the referer url and browser identification string.

that doesn't tell you *anything* about the number of distinct people who
are using it.  you can make a dumb assumption that one IP address
corresponds to one person, but that fails on two counts: a) a proxy may
be fetching pages for more than one user, and b) a user behind a
load-balanced proxy array may be fetching pages via multiple different
proxy servers.

all logfile analysis programs (except for those which support
click-tracking cookies) make such guesses and assumptions.

the truth is that web logs can only reliably tell you what load the
server is handling.

> or ignore tracking those users who have cookies turned off?

yep, they could do that.  in fact, they should do that.

> <rant>
> I have also complained to them that their site is BROKEN (aka must use
> cookies).  

that is broken.  if the cookies are only used for click-tracking then
it can and should work for users who choose to disable cookies or who
are using a browser which doesn't support cookies.

craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>

Fabricati Diem, PVNC.
 -- motto of the Ankh-Morpork City Watch
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From r.williams@acif.org.au  Tue Sep  3 00:16:28 2002
From: r.williams@acif.org.au (Robin Williams)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:16:28 +1000 
Subject: [LINK] ACIF PUBLIC COMMENT ADVERTISMENT
Message-ID: <4C3B0535C196D511B0E8000255C872FD1A56AF@ACIF-NT>

The Australian Communications Industry Forum (ACIF) invites public comment
from industry and consumers on a draft Industry Guideline that has been
released for a 30 day public comment period - i.e.

· DR ACIF G601 Consumer Contracts Industry Guideline

DR ACIF G601 Consumer Contracts Industry Guideline provides guidance on
industry best practice for contract provisions and guidance on unfair and
unintelligible contract terms generally and in specific contexts. 

The Australian Communications Industry Forum (ACIF) is an industry owned,
operated and resourced company established by the telecommunications
industry to implement and manage communications self-regulation within
Australia.  Its primary role is to develop and administer Standards and
Industry Codes, and provide Industry Facilitation Services that promote both
the long-term interests of end-users and the efficiency and international
competitiveness of the Australian communications industry.

ACIF welcomes your input.

Copies of the Draft Industry Guideline can be obtained from ACIF:

Telephone: (02) 9959 9111 E-mail: acif@acif.org.au
Facsimile: (02) 9954 6136 Web site: www.acif.org.au

PUBLIC COMMENT PERIOD CLOSES AT 5.00 P.M. ON FRIDAY 4 OCTOBER 2002

Robin Williams
Coordinator - Events, Publications and Compliance
Australian Communications Industry Forum 
Telephone: (02) 9959 9113
Facsimile:  (02) 9954 6136
----------
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From foconno1@bigpond.net.au  Tue Sep  3 00:25:00 2002
From: foconno1@bigpond.net.au (Frank O'Connor)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:25:00 +1000
Subject: [LINK] www.fed.gov.au requires cookies.
In-Reply-To: <1031010542.31422.13.camel@newton.aipo.gov.au>
References: <200209021337.g82Dbl9v013171@anu.edu.au>
 <1031010542.31422.13.camel@newton.aipo.gov.au>
Message-ID: <p05100300b999b0966eab@[203.51.157.49]>

Agreed,

Session management (for transaction based interaction) is easily 
managed in a less amateur way than the fed.gov site seems to be doing 
it ... most app servers handle it routinely ... and if they are using 
the cookies for logging access data, then they should admit it.

And if they're not deleting the cookies when the session ends, then 
what other purpose can it have? Expired cookies can still be put to 
use.

Personally I don' worry too much about cookies ... and will accept 
them from the page originating site ... but I do get a tad steamed 
when I'm forced to do a heap of cleaning up every few months.   :)

				Regards,

At 9:49 AM +1000 3/9/02, Carl Makin wrote:
>On Mon, 2002-09-02 at 23:37, Eric Scheid wrote:
>
>>  From: Carl Makin <carl@stagecraft.cx> (2/9/02 8:12 PM)
>
>>  >I really can't see any reason for the www.fed.gov.au to
>>  >require the use of cookies for any reason.
>
>>  It's a session cookie, as is apparent by (1) the fact it expires at the
>>  end of the session, and (2) it is named JSESSIONID.
>
>Yes it is a session cookie. But it is still a cookie and the
>functionality of the site should not depend on it working.
>
>>  I guess you think the fed.gov.au folks shouldn't care just how people
>>  actually use their website, what the common entry pages are, what the
>
>There are plenty of other ways to generate that information without
>mandating cookies.
>
>>  common exit pages are, whether people abandon their visit after trying
>>  Dang it all, they should just slap up some HTML pages and hope they've
>>  got it right. If they don't then tough bikkies. You don't honestly expect
>>  them to gather information which informs their future development
>>  decisions, surely?
>
>No, I expect them to use appropriate and non-invasive methods to collect
>their statistics, and since there are acceptable alternatives they
>shouldn't be forcing visitors to have cookies enabled.
>
>It's not about whether fed.gov.au are abusing cookies, it is that by
>forcing people to use cookies they are actively helping less reputable
>organisations violate my privacy.  I don't enable cookies by default,
>even for .gov.au organisations as I can't be certain that I'm really
>talking to that organisation, at least until after the page loads (and
>perhaps even then).
>
>Paranoid?  Yes probably, but I am concerned about the steady erosion of
>my privacy in this society and while there isn't much I can do overall,
>I will do what I can where I can.
>
>
>Carl.
>
>----------
>For Link list information see http://sunsite.anu.edu.au/link/

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From Richard.Chirgwin@informa.com.au  Tue Sep  3 00:24:13 2002
From: Richard.Chirgwin@informa.com.au (Chirgwin, Richard)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:24:13 +1000 
Subject: [LINK] www.fed.gov.au requires cookies.
Message-ID: <9BD4AE8C2EB1D311982700508BA2498902A4DB7E@EXCHANGE_AU>

Carl,

It also falls back to a natural and intelligent wariness of anybody who uses
"for your own good" to justify an action. "We use cookies so we can serve
you better" is a noble sentiment, but "you can't use my site without cookies
because I will serve you better" is just a sort of "take your medicine,
child!" attitude.

Also: surely there's a high correlation between refusing cookies and
Internet nous; IOW, we know exactly WHY we refuse cookies; we already know
that there are other ways to 'evaluate the user experience'; and we still
prefer not to have cookies imposed by fiat, just because somebody wants to
gather data they patently don't use...

RC

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carl Makin [mailto:carl@xena.ipaustralia.gov.au]
> Sent: Tuesday, 3 September 2002 09:49
> To: Eric Scheid
> Cc: Link List
> Subject: Re: [LINK] www.fed.gov.au requires cookies.
> 
> 
> On Mon, 2002-09-02 at 23:37, Eric Scheid wrote:
> 
> > From: Carl Makin <carl@stagecraft.cx> (2/9/02 8:12 PM)
> 
> > >I really can't see any reason for the www.fed.gov.au to 
> > >require the use of cookies for any reason.
> 
> > It's a session cookie, as is apparent by (1) the fact it 
> expires at the 
> > end of the session, and (2) it is named JSESSIONID.
> 
> Yes it is a session cookie. But it is still a cookie and the
> functionality of the site should not depend on it working.
> 
> > I guess you think the fed.gov.au folks shouldn't care just 
> how people 
> > actually use their website, what the common entry pages 
> are, what the 
> 
> There are plenty of other ways to generate that information without
> mandating cookies. 
> 
> > common exit pages are, whether people abandon their visit 
> after trying 
> > Dang it all, they should just slap up some HTML pages and 
> hope they've 
> > got it right. If they don't then tough bikkies. You don't 
> honestly expect 
> > them to gather information which informs their future development 
> > decisions, surely?
> 
> No, I expect them to use appropriate and non-invasive methods 
> to collect
> their statistics, and since there are acceptable alternatives they
> shouldn't be forcing visitors to have cookies enabled.
> 
> It's not about whether fed.gov.au are abusing cookies, it is that by
> forcing people to use cookies they are actively helping less reputable
> organisations violate my privacy.  I don't enable cookies by default,
> even for .gov.au organisations as I can't be certain that I'm really
> talking to that organisation, at least until after the page loads (and
> perhaps even then).
> 
> Paranoid?  Yes probably, but I am concerned about the steady 
> erosion of
> my privacy in this society and while there isn't much I can 
> do overall,
> I will do what I can where I can.
> 
> 
> Carl.
> 
> ----------
> For Link list information see http://sunsite.anu.edu.au/link/
> 
----------
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From rick@praxis.com.au  Tue Sep  3 00:33:06 2002
From: rick@praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 10:33:06 +1000
Subject: [LINK] www.fed.gov.au requires cookies.
References: <200209021337.g82Dbl9v013171@anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <3D740342.8F9F44DF@praxis.com.au>

Eric Scheid wrote:

> I guess you think the fed.gov.au folks shouldn't care just how people
> actually use their website, what the common entry pages are, what the
> common exit pages are, whether people abandon their visit after trying
> the search function or viewing the site map (ie. not following any links
> from there), ...

And I guess you think that web logs do not provide the above
information.

Cookies are not designed or intended for page tracking. As a matter of
fact, once a cookie is sent to the browser from page X on the web site,
and the browser subsequently returns the cookies with each HTTP request,
the cookie itself tells the web server *nothing* about navigation.

What does tell all is the HTTP Request and Referrer URI's. These are
logged along with lots of other goodies. It is an analysis of the web
logs that provides the information you speak of.



> Dang it all, they should just slap up some HTML pages and hope they've
> got it right. If they don't then tough bikkies. You don't honestly expect
> them to gather information which informs their future development
> decisions, surely?

THe cynic in me (and years of experience) tells me that very very very
few web developers / sys admins actually analyse traffic flow through
their websites in order to provide a better service. VERY few.

cheers
rickw


-- 
_________________________________
Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services

linux: because a PC is a terrible thing to waste
  (ksh@cis.ufl.edu put this on Tshirts in '93)
----------
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From lannet@lannet.com.au  Tue Sep  3 00:45:18 2002
From: lannet@lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:45:18 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [LINK] www.fed.gov.au requires cookies.
In-Reply-To: <1031011563.31422.27.camel@newton.aipo.gov.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0209031036420.1301-100000@int.lannet.com.au>

On 3 Sep 2002, Carl Makin wrote:

> On Tue, 2002-09-03 at 09:36, Howard Lowndes wrote:
>
> > Are you sure that you are correct here.
>
> > I just tried with Konqueror with cookies rejected and had no problems.  I
> > then tried with lynx and rejected the JSESSIONID cookie and still got in.
> >
> > Either they have fixed it or it wasn't a problem in  the first place.
>
> The problem is when you click on a link to go to another site.  The
> redirection script throws an exception if cookies arn't enabled.
>
> The only reason I can think of is they want to narrow down click through
> traffic to individual people, ie they want to know if the same person
> clicks on multiple links.  There are other ways to do this.

What I am noticing on a link is that the URL becomes, for example:
http://www.fed.gov.au/CountHits?redirectTo=http://nationalsecurity.ag.gov.au/

and then I get:
Error: 500

Location: /CountHits

The url trying to be counted is invalid.


If I enable cookies and force a query then the RBA site offers a cookie,
which if I reject then it will still load.  This is one of the problems
with TLDs in that one of the options to accept cookies is "from the same
domain", which with a .com domain would mean mydomain.com but with any
other TLD means the whole of .gov.au



-- 
Howard.
LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people
Contact detail at http://www.lannetlinux.com
"Flatter government, not fatter government." - me
 Get rid of the Australian states.

----------
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From Richard.Chirgwin@informa.com.au  Tue Sep  3 00:45:19 2002
From: Richard.Chirgwin@informa.com.au (Chirgwin, Richard)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:45:19 +1000 
Subject: [LINK] Broadband technology for Western Australia
Message-ID: <9BD4AE8C2EB1D311982700508BA2498902A4DB81@EXCHANGE_AU>

Tom - it's a good thing you sent this, because it hasn't yet made it onto
the SWDC's Website...or at least into the site's search engine, where
"broadband" returns zero results. But lots of neat graphics, naturally...

RC

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Worthington [mailto:tom.worthington@tomw.net.au]
> Sent: Monday, 2 September 2002 09:41
> To: link@www.anu.edu.au
> Subject: [LINK] Broadband technology for Western Australia
> Importance: Low
> 
> 
> This appeared in the weekend newspapers. I couldn't find it 
> on-line and 
> thought it may be of interest:
> 
> ---
> 
>            Government of Western Australia
>                Expressions of Interest
>           South West Development Commission
> 
>                 Broadband technology
>            South West of Western Australia
> 
>   An opportunity to plan and develop an integrated broadband
>     network in one of Australia's fastest growing regions.
> 
> The South West of Western Australia is a region of enormous 
> potential. With 
> a population growth rate at twice the national average and a 
> gross regional 
> product of $4.6 billion it's a great place in which to live 
> and invest.
> 
> The South West Development Commission is inviting ideas and 
> views from 
> telecommunications providers on how they might participate in 
> network and 
> service development in the region, including models for 
> delivery and financing.
> 
> There will be an opportunity to present ideas to the region's leading 
> business, community and government stakeholders on a 
> commercial-in-confidence basis. The information obtained will 
> be used to 
> provide advice to the State Government on the future of 
> telecommunications 
> in the region.
> 
> This is an opportunity to be part of a region gaining international 
> recognition for its lifestyle and economic vibrancy. It is 
> fast-becoming a 
> region of excellence in information technology.
> 
> For further details contact: Mr. Ashley Clements, Executive 
> Officer, South 
> west Online, South West Development Commission, Telephone: 9792 2000, 
> Facsimile: 9791 3223, E-mail: aclements@swdc.wa.gov.au
> 
> Submission close: Tuesday, 24 September 2002.
> 
> ---
> 
> NOTE: Transcribed from paper copy and so may contain errors.
> 
> PS: See the IT industry attraction project report I prepared 
> for the Great 
> Southern Region of Western Australia (next to the South West 
> Region) at: 
> http://www.tomw.net.au/gsr
> 
> The South West Development Commission's web site is at 
> <http://swdc.wa.gov.au>, but the search facility didn't find  
> "Broadband".
> 
> 
> 
> Tom Worthington FACS tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150
> Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309
> http://www.tomw.net.au PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617
> 
> ----------
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> 
----------
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From rick@praxis.com.au  Tue Sep  3 01:08:29 2002
From: rick@praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 11:08:29 +1000
Subject: [LINK] www.fed.gov.au requires cookies.
References: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0209031036420.1301-100000@int.lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <3D740B8D.72CB0A39@praxis.com.au>

Howard Lowndes wrote:

> What I am noticing on a link is that the URL becomes, for example:
> http://www.fed.gov.au/CountHits?redirectTo=http://
> and then I get:
> Error: 500
> 
> Location: /CountHits
> 
> The url trying to be counted is invalid.

Why on earth are they doing the above?
Most (at least 99%) of browsers send the following header:

Referrer: http://www.fed.gov.au/

(See RFC 1945).

Cockamamie techniques like the above to 'count' clicks, either from
www.fed.gov.au or to nationalsecurity.ag.gov.au are simply not necessary.
It shows a basic misunderstanding of the HTTP protocol. And it results
in bizarre error msgs like the above "The url trying to be counted is invalid."
which is very strange English. Your average punter would have no hope in 
hell figuring it out. (Passive aggressive voice with a bit of anthropomorphism
thrown in to stir up th the pot.)


cheers
rickw




-- 
_________________________________
Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services

linux: because a PC is a terrible thing to waste
  (ksh@cis.ufl.edu put this on Tshirts in '93)
----------
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From brd@austarmetro.com.au  Tue Sep  3 01:14:07 2002
From: brd@austarmetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn)
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 11:14:07 +1000
Subject: [LINK] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Intel=92s?= R&D budget bigger than 
	=?iso-8859-1?Q?Australia=92s?=
Message-ID: <3D740CDF.D82989BF@austarmetro.com.au>

Intel’s R&D budget bigger than Australia’s
By James Riley, iTnews
Monday, 02 September 2002
http://www.itnews.com.au/story.cfm?ID=10686

Australia's ability to compete in the global services economy is at risk
because of the nation's relatively low investment in research and
development, according to Intel chief executive Craig Barrett.

Although comparing well against other developed nations in indicators such
as PC penetration and Internet connections, Barrett said the most
"striking" statistic about Australia was its tiny R&D budget.

Australia spends less than one percent of its gross domestic product (GDP)
on R&D, compared to close to 5 percent in the US, and four percent in the
UK.

Based on a rough a rough annual GDP figure for Australia of US$350 billion,
Barrett said the combined total of all public and private sector R&D
spending locally was "somewhere less than US$3.5 billion" on research and
development.

"Intel by itself spends about $4 billion a year on R&D," Barrett said. "So
my company out spends your country. (And) my revenue base is not nearly as
high as your GDP base," he said.

Barrett said the low level of R&D investment should be focus of "a national
debate for the citizens of Australia". He said Australia was well
positioned to take advantage of opportunities to export broadband services
to Asia, but warned those opportunities could be lost without greater R&D
and broadband infrastructure investment.

Despite the worst recession the IT industry has endured in 30 years,
Barrett said the internet had largely delivered on its early promise,
particularly in business to business electronic commerce.

Intel, he said, was looking to save about US$1 billion annually through its
Internet-based sales and procurement programs. The company sold more than
US$25 billion worth of goods and services via Internet-based systems, and
bought more than $10 billion worth of goods and services through Internet
procurement systems.

Broadband would be the next frontier of Internet services, and Australia
was well placed as a regional centre for the development of broadband
services and business models.

Barrett said estimates in the US suggested that broadband services could
add as much as five percent - or US$500 billion - to that nation's GDP
annually, suggesting percentage increase may be similar in Australia.

Meanwhile, Barrett said Intel would continue to make venture capital
investments in Australia and the region through its Intel development fund.

Intel has so far invested in eight Australian companies and about 120
throughout the region, most made during the height of the Internet boom.

Barrett said Intel's investments had slowed in the past 18 months, largely
because its more traditional venture capital investment partners had become
more cautious in the wake of the dotcom bubble's burst.

Although Intel's investment rates were down to about one-third of levels
two years ago, Barrett said the company had no plan to reduce the amount of
funds already earmarked for its ongoing strategic investment plans.

-- 
Now who is responsible for this work of development on which so much
depends? To whom must the praise be given? To the boys in the back rooms.
They do not sit in the limelight. But they are the men who do the work.
-- Lord Beaverbrook, March 1941

Regards
brd

Bernard Robertson-Dunn
Canberra Australia
brd@austarmetro.com.au
----------
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From Richard.Chirgwin@informa.com.au  Tue Sep  3 02:02:17 2002
From: Richard.Chirgwin@informa.com.au (Chirgwin, Richard)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 12:02:17 +1000 
Subject: [LINK] Intel?s R&D budget bigger than  Australia?s
Message-ID: <9BD4AE8C2EB1D311982700508BA2498902A4DB92@EXCHANGE_AU>

I know, don't blame the journalist, "I'm just reporting what he said."

Lots of nice one-liners, but nothing new except that Intel has learned that
Australia's cringe guarantees copy.

> Based on a rough a rough annual GDP figure for Australia of 
> US$350 billion,

The ABS and a calculator make this $400 billion, but that's a quibble...

We flayed ourselves for not being a "new economy", but are now not suffering
such a hangover from crookedness and chicanery... but still, "you're not new
economy enough" is the cry.

> "So my company out spends your country. (And) my revenue base is 
> not nearly as high as your GDP base," he said.

Let's make the comparison more accurate ... how much, for example, does
Intel spend on:
...a national healthcare system?
...universities?
...welfare?
...agriculture?
...police?
...justice?
Zero? Well, in that case I guess "my country outspends your company on the
well-being of citizens".

> Despite the worst recession the IT industry has endured in 30 years,
> Barrett said the internet had largely delivered on its early promise,
> particularly in business to business electronic commerce.
> 
> Intel, he said, was looking to save about US$1 billion 
> annually through its Internet-based sales and procurement programs. The
company 
> sold more than US$25 billion worth of goods and services via
Internet-based 
> systems, and bought more than $10 billion worth of goods and services 
> through Internet procurement systems.

I've discussed this before. In any contested market, it's impossible to
impose a particular sales model on your consumer. Only where there's
inadequate competition (banking comes to mind!) can a vendor say "you WILL
deal with us the way WE require, and if you don't like it you're out of
business".

The Intel numbers also conveniently ignore the supply chain all the way to
the consumer: Intel benefits disproportionately by the Internet because it
deals through tied intermediaries. Those intermediaries, not Intel, are the
ones who have to bear the cost of physical retail presence.

I'm in favour of debate about R&D in Australia, but this isn't debate. It's
the usual "someone says something exciting, everybody falls over themselves
to report it, nobody asks for any assertion or number to be backed up
because it's CRAIG BARRETT and who are we to challenge him?"

Richard Chirgwin
PS. No, I didn't go to the media event. The invitation was enough to put me
off, Craig Barrett with a chip die forming a halo behind his head - I'm not
joking - and the following text:

You are invited to an exclusive session with Craig R Barrett, Chief
Executive Officer, Intel Corporation

Across Australia, companies are switched-on to the digital future,
discovering the new era of computing and communications. Broadband access,
wireless connectivity, ways to entertain and learn, and more efficient
business processes - and it's only the beginning. Join us as Craig looks
into the digital future and highlights the hardware and software
capabilities that can transform Australia.

Somehow, the notion of exclusivity being delivered in a room with 50 other
journalists didn't grab me...
RC
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From me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au  Tue Sep  3 02:00:01 2002
From: me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au (Tony Barry)
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 12:00:01 +1000
Subject: [LINK] Reliable web server, no operating system
Message-ID: <a05100305b999c812a153@[10.0.1.202]>

Extracted item provided for information.

Source:Edupage, August 26, 2002
- - - - -
RELIABLE WEB SERVER, NO OPERATING SYSTEM
Two former Motorola engineers, frustrated by the constant attention and
maintenance required to keep Web servers running and safe from attack,
have designed a new Web server to run--potentially for years--without
human input. The server runs on a "kernel," just 4KB in size, rather
than having an operating system. According to Eric Hauk and Eric Uner,
the two men behind the project, it is a significant departure from
every other sort of device running the Internet today. Their server
eschews the notion of "enterprise computing" in favor of "embedded
computing," which lies behind medical and other devices that have
extremely small margins for error. Hauk and U