[LINK] Statement of Principles: Copyright and the FTA

[Craig Sanders]

On Tue, Jun 29, 2004 at 03:39:20PM +1000, Deus Ex Machina wrote:
> Craig Sanders [cas at taz.net.au] wrote:
> > On Mon, Jun 28, 2004 at 09:57:45PM +1000, Deus Ex Machina wrote:
> > > what you seem to be asking is that we take on faith important policy
> > > decisions. all I am asking is that decisions that curtail property rights
> > > or directly advocate various types of redistribution should be measured
> > > to determine that the expected outcomes actually eventuate.
> >
> > how about you start the ball rolling?  first provide evidence that property
> > rights are a desirable thing.  or is that something we should just take on
> > faith (on the grounds that your religion is better than other people's
> > religions)?
> 
> here is a good starting point

you have missed the point.  starting from first principles, deduce the goodness
of property - without any assumptions or faith.  no waving of hands and
referring to the magical (and mythical) free market, just solid logical
deduction.

if you can't do that, then your faith is no better than any other.


> The Birth of Plenty : How the Prosperity of the Modern World was Created
> by William Bernstein
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0071421920/qid=1088484037/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/104-1206838-6143934?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

looks like empirical observation with a healthy dose of opinion.

> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0465051960/qid=1088484679/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-1206838-6143934?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
> Power and Prosperity: Outgrowing Communist and Capitalist Dictatorships
> by Mancur Olson

faith based opinion.

> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312210833/qid=1088484679/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/104-1206838-6143934?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
> 
> The Noblest Triumph: Property and Prosperity Through the Ages
> by Tom Bethell

faith based opinion.

> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521597137/ref=pd_sim_books_2/104-1206838-6143934?v=glance&s=books
> 
> Economic Analysis of Property Rights (Political Economy of Institutions
> and Decisions) by Yoram Barzel 
> 
> "This book provides the reader insight into how property rights define
> how society organizes itself. Building on Public Choice Theory, Barzel
> explores how property rights are delineated in many situations,
> addressing head on the Tragedy of the Commons."

faith based opinion.


> google on correlation between proposperty and property rights
> 
> http://www.google.com.au/search?num=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=correlation+prosperity+property+rights&spell=1

and even more faith based opinion.


> I am not asking for rigorous scientific proof, 

that's blindingly obvious.

> I am asking for at least some demonstrateable correlation to reality.

doesn't like like you're even that discerning.

> > it has already been proved many times (even though you choose to ignore it)
> 
> where? reference?

many times.  i'm not going to waste my time repeating it again.  look on the
archives of this list.


> http://www.freemarketfoundation.com/catalogue/cataloguetext.asp?catid=1051
> 
> "The point was made eloquently by Garrett Hardin in his celebrated paper
> The Tragedy of the Commons: .Ruin is the destination toward which all
> men rush, each pursuing his own best interest in a society that believes
> in the freedom of the commons. Freedom in a commons brings ruin to
> all..1 To put the point differently, unless rule of law exists . which
> protects property rights, gives widespread ownership of the means of
> production and facilitates free passage in economic activity . economic
> freedom is meaningless. "

blinkered misunderstanding of the problems of greed and selfishness.  blames
the victims (i.e. the people) for having common property worth stealing.


> > that resisting the expansion of copyright is NOT "curtailing IP rights", it
> > is fighting against the theft of the commons.
> 
> you have been reading too much Lessig. IP comes from people talents not from
> the world at large.

no, "intellectual property" comes from government decree.  ideas come from
people, but ideas aren't property unless a government declare them to be so.
ditto for expressions of ideas.

> and let me guess you are one of those people whose livelyhood depends
> on protecting private information yet declare that no such thing exists?

you guess wrong.  to be expected.

craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas at taz.net.au>

The next time you vote, remember that "Regime change begins at home"