From slc at publicus.net Thu Dec 1 03:38:23 2005 From: slc at publicus.net (Steven Clift) Date: Thu Dec 1 03:39:13 2005 Subject: [LINK] Everyday Citizens: Community Life in the Information Age Speech Message-ID: <002701c5f5cc$7b46faf0$6400a8c0@PUBLICUS2> I've put my one hour "Everyday Citizens: Community Life in the Information Age" speech online at: http://dowire.org/media/everydaycitizens.mp3 It highlights a number of e-participation lessons I share with different parts of government and society. If you have examples from Australia that fit the theme of the speech (after you listen :-)), send them along: clift@publicus.net More info: http://www.dowire.org/notes/?p=76 Steven Clift - http://publicus.net - Reply to: clift@publicus.net Join DoWire: http://dowire.org E-Democracy: http://e-democracy.org From slc at publicus.net Thu Dec 1 03:39:46 2005 From: slc at publicus.net (Steven Clift) Date: Thu Dec 1 03:40:32 2005 Subject: [LINK] Everyday Citizens: Community Life in the Information Age Speech Message-ID: <002e01c5f5cc$adabd420$6400a8c0@PUBLICUS2> I've put my one hour "Everyday Citizens: Community Life in the Information Age" speech online at: http://dowire.org/media/everydaycitizens.mp3 It highlights a number of e-participation lessons I share with different parts of government and society. If you have examples from Australia that fit the theme of the speech (after you listen :-)), send them along: clift@publicus.net More info: http://www.dowire.org/notes/?p=76 Steven Clift - http://publicus.net - Reply to: clift@publicus.net Join DoWire: http://dowire.org E-Democracy: http://e-democracy.org From brd at iimetro.com.au Thu Dec 1 08:11:43 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (brd@iimetro.com.au) Date: Thu Dec 1 08:11:52 2005 Subject: [LINK] It's official: Diebold election bugware can't be trusted Message-ID: <20051201051143.nnshe5f1oaasgksc@webmail.iimetro.com.au> It's official: Diebold election bugware can't be trusted The company implies as much By Thomas C Greene in Washington Published Wednesday 30th November 2005 14:50 GMT The Register http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/11/30/diebold_hides_source/ Diebold would rather lose all of its voting machine business in North Carolina than open its source code to state election officials as required by law, the Associated Press reports. Due to irregularities in the 2004 election traced to touch screen terminals, North Carolina has taken the very reasonable precaution of requiring vendors of electronic voting gizmos to place all of the source code in escrow. Diebold has objected to the possibility of criminal sanctions if they fail to comply, and argued for an exemption before Wake County Superior Court Judge Narley Cashwell. The judge declined to issue an exemption, and Diebold has concluded that it has no choice but withdraw from the state. The company's explanation is that their machines contain Microsoft software, which they have no right to make available to state election officials. This seems disingenuous, as it is hard to imagine Microsoft suing Diebold for complying with the law. It would hardly be Diebold's fault if it released MS code to a lawful authority on demand; that issue would be something for MS and North Carolina to work out. One far-fetched explanation would be that MS has licensed its software to Diebold with a provision that the company withdraw from jurisdictions where the law requires the release of its source code. It's possible, but there's no reason to believe it. A considerably more plausible explanation is that Diebold is using this non-problem as an excuse to keep its bugware from the prying eyes of government regulators. And the most likely reason for that is that they've got a lot of blunders to hide. If North Carolina were to reject the machines on the basis of their software, other states would undoubtedly become suspicious, and begin doing their own investigations. So in that case, withdrawing from the market is the smartest move the company can make. But if the software is as good as the company claims, then North Carolina's future endorsement will make for excellent free advertising. Withdrawing from the market would be a very foolish move in that case, but, again, only if Diebold has nothing to hide. -- If you've found 3 bugs in a program, best estimate is that there are 3 more. 60% of product cost comes after initial shipment. -- unknown Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using iiMetro WebMail From srh at ozemail.com.au Thu Dec 1 08:58:19 2005 From: srh at ozemail.com.au (Steve Hill) Date: Thu Dec 1 08:58:37 2005 Subject: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection Message-ID: <001c01c5f5f9$2ce69d20$0200a8c0@CPQ27999229962> Hi All I have recently left my place of employment where I worked for over ten years. As of yesterday (2 weeks on from my resignation) my email account with that organisation has been disconnected without any prior notification. Obviously, my former employer has a right to do this, or does he? Does it make any difference that I was allowed to use this email address for both personal and business use? Would this mean that I have at least a small claim to ownership of that account and should have been given a few days notice of the disconnection? Is there a point of law in having an email account that was used for business and private use being disconnected? Should I have realised what would happen and made changing my email address my first priority? Your comments and/or similar experiences would be appreciated Steve Hill Email: srh@ozemail.com.au From stil at stilgherrian.com Thu Dec 1 09:19:32 2005 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Thu Dec 1 09:19:57 2005 Subject: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection In-Reply-To: <001c01c5f5f9$2ce69d20$0200a8c0@CPQ27999229962> Message-ID: On 1/12/05 8:58 AM, "Steve Hill" wrote: > I have recently left my place of employment where I worked for over ten years. > As of yesterday (2 weeks on from my resignation) my email account with that > organisation has been disconnected without any prior notification. > Obviously, my former employer has a right to do this, or does he? He does. The email account/system belongs to the employer, and he can do with it what he wishes. He was providing the account as a "business tool" while you were an employee. Compare: An employer provides a car so you can visit clients. There's an understanding that you can also use that car after hours. When your employment ends, the car goes back to the employer. > Does it make any difference that I was allowed to use this email address for > both personal and business use? Unless you have something in writing which says that you may use the account for personal purposes, then probably not. Indeed, it could be said that the account was left in place for two whole weeks after your resignation, giving you plenty of time to make other arrangements. That said, it would have been *polite* for them to provide a warning. But the law isn't about politeness. > Would this mean that I have at least a small claim to ownership of that > account and should have been given a few days notice of the disconnection? > Is there a point of law in having an email account that was used for business > and private use being disconnected? > Should I have realised what would happen and made changing my email address my > first priority? Yes, sorry, you should have. I am not a lawyer, so I welcome people to shoot me down in flames on this one. Stil -- Stilgherrian Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia. ABN 25 231 641 421 mobile 0407 623 600 (international +61 407 623 600) fax 02 9516 5630 (international +61 2 9516 5630) From skeeve at skeeve.org Thu Dec 1 09:19:57 2005 From: skeeve at skeeve.org (Skeeve Stevens) Date: Thu Dec 1 09:20:13 2005 Subject: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection In-Reply-To: <001c01c5f5f9$2ce69d20$0200a8c0@CPQ27999229962> Message-ID: <200511302220.jAUMK0V25035@carpediem.eintellego.net> There's arguments on both sides here. Ignoring all the assumed rights of the employer and your use of their resources as a given. It could be possible for you to go to court to get it re-instated for a period... I'm not sure on what basis though. But, the easiest obvious avenue would be to make a deal with the employer... Have you talked to them? They were probably just following protocols... With that long at the company, they might be willing to restore it for a period (even if there is a cost associated). That's where I'd start before going to court to force them... And think how much email you'd lose anyhow, and how much it would cost you. ...Skeeve -----Original Message----- From: link-bounces@anumail0.anu.edu.au [mailto:link-bounces@anumail0.anu.edu.au] On Behalf Of Steve Hill Sent: Thursday, 1 December 2005 8:58 AM To: Link Subject: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection Hi All I have recently left my place of employment where I worked for over ten years. As of yesterday (2 weeks on from my resignation) my email account with that organisation has been disconnected without any prior notification. Obviously, my former employer has a right to do this, or does he? Does it make any difference that I was allowed to use this email address for both personal and business use? Would this mean that I have at least a small claim to ownership of that account and should have been given a few days notice of the disconnection? Is there a point of law in having an email account that was used for business and private use being disconnected? Should I have realised what would happen and made changing my email address my first priority? Your comments and/or similar experiences would be appreciated Steve Hill Email: srh@ozemail.com.au _______________________________________________ Link mailing list Link@mailman.anu.edu.au http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link ======================================================================== iBurst Wireless Broadband from $34.95/month www.platformnetworks.net Forward undetected SPAM to: spam@mailsecurity.net.au ======================================================================== From lannet at lannet.com.au Thu Dec 1 09:42:24 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Thu Dec 1 09:42:47 2005 Subject: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection In-Reply-To: <001c01c5f5f9$2ce69d20$0200a8c0@CPQ27999229962> References: <001c01c5f5f9$2ce69d20$0200a8c0@CPQ27999229962> Message-ID: <438E2AD0.9080901@lannet.com.au> Did you have a company supplied car that you were allowed to use for business and private use - were you allowed to continue using that after you terminated - normally only so that you can get home on that day. Similarly with a company supplied laptop. Steve Hill wrote: > Hi All > > I have recently left my place of employment where I worked for over ten years. As of yesterday (2 weeks on from my resignation) my email account with that organisation has been disconnected without any prior notification. > Obviously, my former employer has a right to do this, or does he? > Does it make any difference that I was allowed to use this email address for both personal and business use? > Would this mean that I have at least a small claim to ownership of that account and should have been given a few days notice of the disconnection? > Is there a point of law in having an email account that was used for business and private use being disconnected? > Should I have realised what would happen and made changing my email address my first priority? > Your comments and/or similar experiences would be appreciated > > Steve Hill > Email: srh@ozemail.com.au > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From andyf at concero.com.au Thu Dec 1 10:05:34 2005 From: andyf at concero.com.au (Andy Farkas) Date: Thu Dec 1 10:05:50 2005 Subject: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection In-Reply-To: <001c01c5f5f9$2ce69d20$0200a8c0@CPQ27999229962> References: <001c01c5f5f9$2ce69d20$0200a8c0@CPQ27999229962> Message-ID: <20051201084507.Y88106@nfw.concero.com.au> On Thu, 1 Dec 2005, Steve Hill wrote: > I have recently left my place of employment where I worked for over ten > years. As of yesterday (2 weeks on from my resignation) my email account > with that organisation has been disconnected without any prior > notification. Exact same thing happened to me. But I tend to blame it on the incompetent admins that took over the FreeBSD systems that I built, turned them off, and tried to use M$ products to perform the same functions; I was the admin for a small ISP in Sydney for 6 years and the new guys had no idea what they were getting into. My revenge consisted of a formal complaint to the TIO, which escalated to the second level, thereby causing them to pay a fee to the TIO. Small satisfaction I know, but it felt good at the time :) Plus I got my address back for a week or so. But by that time I was already unsubscribed from most mail lists. I guess over the last ten years I've been on the Internet, I've only ever had 2 email addresses, my current one being the third, and all employer owned. Might have to finally get one of them .id addresses. -andyf From ivan.trundle at alia.org.au Thu Dec 1 11:31:46 2005 From: ivan.trundle at alia.org.au (Ivan Trundle) Date: Thu Dec 1 11:32:08 2005 Subject: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection Message-ID: On 1/12/05 8:58 AM, "Steve Hill" wrote: > I have recently left my place of employment where I worked for over ten years. > As of yesterday (2 weeks on from my resignation) my email account with that > organisation has been disconnected without any prior notification. > Obviously, my former employer has a right to do this, or does he? Sorry Steve, but I can only concur completely with everything that Stil wrote (and I'll stand by Stil if anyone wishes to flame away). You've not got a leg to stand on. The act of using an employer e-mail to conduct private business is a no-no for most places that I know of (yes, I know it happens, all the same - but the ownership is with the organisation, not the individual). A two-week 'buffer' seems quite considerate in these circumstances. In my workpace, the address is removed from the moment that the resignation is effective. Considering the damage that can be done (or the risk involved) by someone using a workplace address whilst no longer employed in that workplace, most system administrators would not even entertain two weeks for an ex-employee to sort things out. Anyone remaining with an employer for a long period of time needs to consider this: and given that employers are becoming more and more hesitant to permit access to web-based mail or other forms of personal communication in the workplace, then alternatives need to be found that do not compromise the workplace's policies. Anyone with a workplace e-mail address (or other forms of communication) should be aware of this - even if the ubiquity of access means that an employee sees no immediate need to have alternatives (at home, on the road, etc). The same applies to phone numbers, laptops, cars, mobile phones, desks, chairs, stationery, and coffee cups. Ownership of an account in the workplace is very much in the hands of the employer, not the employee (and certainly not the ex-employee). iT From ivan.trundle at alia.org.au Thu Dec 1 11:33:28 2005 From: ivan.trundle at alia.org.au (Ivan Trundle) Date: Thu Dec 1 11:33:39 2005 Subject: [LINK] RFI: Readability of Report on Anti-Terrorism Bill In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20051130122726.038dfb88@fastmail.fm> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20051130122726.038dfb88@fastmail.fm> Message-ID: <4F380356-D721-43EE-9863-3876FCB9E8FF@alia.org.au> On 30/11/2005, at 12:48 PM, Tom Worthington wrote: > Google provides a reasonable HTML translation, but it seems to cut > out at about page 75: ...which makes it unreasonable, in my view. iT From lannet at lannet.com.au Thu Dec 1 11:49:54 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Thu Dec 1 11:50:10 2005 Subject: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <438E48B2.8080601@lannet.com.au> Ivan Trundle wrote: > In my workpace, the address is removed from the moment that the > resignation is effective. Considering the damage that can be done (or > the risk involved) by someone using a workplace address whilst no > longer employed in that workplace, most system administrators would not > even entertain two weeks for an ex-employee to sort things out. Having said that, it's still amazing that many business/organisations have an entry procedure which has all the necessary email accounts and data access set up for the new employee, but fail to address the same things in their exit procedures, many of which consist solely of the departure tea and hand over of the termination cheque. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au Thu Dec 1 12:02:15 2005 From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee) Date: Thu Dec 1 12:02:25 2005 Subject: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection In-Reply-To: <001c01c5f5f9$2ce69d20$0200a8c0@CPQ27999229962> References: <001c01c5f5f9$2ce69d20$0200a8c0@CPQ27999229962> Message-ID: <20051201010215.GA27881@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> This is like backups... people don't realise how important "owning" their email address is till they lose it. In improving order of long-term reliability, I'd rank the options as: * your employer * your ISP (you might want to, or have to change) * a small email service (could go out of business) * a email service (e.g. hotmail, gmail) * your own domain I've been trying for some years to move all my personal mail from my employer email (this one) to email addresses on my own domains, but I haven't gone at that systematically yet. (Our policy here is to provide forwards to students and staff who leave, if they want them, but there's no guarantees that policy will persist when I leave.) So everyone go grab an id.au domain now, before all the good ones go! Prices seem to be around $50 for two years. Danny. ---------------------------------------------------------- http://dannyreviews.com/ - over eight hundred book reviews http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog ---------------------------------------------------------- From kauer at biplane.com.au Thu Dec 1 12:14:27 2005 From: kauer at biplane.com.au (Karl Auer) Date: Thu Dec 1 12:14:49 2005 Subject: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection In-Reply-To: <001c01c5f5f9$2ce69d20$0200a8c0@CPQ27999229962> References: <001c01c5f5f9$2ce69d20$0200a8c0@CPQ27999229962> Message-ID: <20051201121427.77b0bca0.kauer@biplane.com.au> > I have recently left my place of employment where I worked for over ten years. As of yesterday (2 weeks on from my resignation) my email account with that organisation has been disconnected without any prior notification. > Obviously, my former employer has a right to do this, or does he? > [ and other discussion] It seems obvious to me that it is the employers right (and in many cases responsibility) to terminate all such services he might provide to you, on the day you leave. That said, some flexibility in this regard is a selling point for good employers, and it probably differs from industry to industry. The place I just left started sending me warnings about all the services I was about to lose, starting the week after my resignation was recieved. They sent about one warning a fortnight saying what was going, when it was going, what was gone etc. Policy is that VPN access stops the day you leave, some stuff goes to a month after you leave, and the email address goes last, two months after you actually leave. I think that's pretty good. It is also a written policy that Internet acess will be available for personal use, and it is up to supervisors to decide what is excessive. The important thing here is that everything is written down and up front - no surprises. Regards, K. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au) +61-2-64957160 (w/h) http://www.biplane.com.au/~kauer/ +61-428-957160 (mob) From drose at nla.gov.au Thu Dec 1 12:25:08 2005 From: drose at nla.gov.au (Daniel Rose) Date: Thu Dec 1 12:25:18 2005 Subject: FW: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection Message-ID: <3F8819281E85774CA6CE6F4FB842874F01FABEA7@gimli.shire.nla.gov.au> > >Ivan Trundle wrote: >> In my workpace, the address is removed from the moment that the >> resignation is effective. Considering the damage that can be done (or >> the risk involved) by someone using a workplace address whilst no >> longer employed in that workplace, most system >administrators would not >> even entertain two weeks for an ex-employee to sort things out. > >Having said that, it's still amazing that many business/organisations >have an entry procedure which has all the necessary email accounts and >data access set up for the new employee, but fail to address the same >things in their exit procedures, many of which consist solely of the >departure tea and hand over of the termination cheque. I get a notification of all departures on a regular basis from personnel and disable all parts of the account on all systems unless other arrangments have been made by the staff member via the helpdesk. If the staff member contacts me and requests a redirect, that's fine. However I've never had a request to allow a staff member to use the webmail account to send email after they've left the Library, and I'd say no anyway unless overruled by upper management -- and if that happened I wouldn't be happy about it! It might be different if there were not hundreds of places where you can get free webmail, and many ISPs will give you a "real" email address for around $10 to $50 per year or something silly like that. If Steve was a senior member of the company then I think they should have contacted him, even if only to avoid acrimony. In any case, Steve should have made arrangements, and I think if Steve were to contact them today and request a redirection to some other email address then I can't think of a business reason for them not to allow it -- it's not a significant hassle, cost or risk for most places to run a redirection service, so if they refuse then it's probably just bloody mindedness. In any case, I can name concrete examples of "free" addresses supplied by govt, academic (ANU) and private business (netspeed) to people who aren't entitled anyway, so some places at least don't regard it as a big deal. From dlochrin at d2.net.au Thu Dec 1 12:28:40 2005 From: dlochrin at d2.net.au (David Lochrin) Date: Thu Dec 1 12:29:47 2005 Subject: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection In-Reply-To: <20051201121427.77b0bca0.kauer@biplane.com.au> References: <001c01c5f5f9$2ce69d20$0200a8c0@CPQ27999229962> <20051201121427.77b0bca0.kauer@biplane.com.au> Message-ID: <200512011228.40128.dlochrin@d2.net.au> On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 12:14, Karl Auer wrote: >The place I just left started sending me warnings about all the services I was about to lose, starting the week after my resignation was recieved. They sent about one warning a fortnight saying what was going, when it was going, what was gone etc. Policy is that VPN access stops the day you leave, some stuff goes to a month after you leave, and the email address goes last, two months after you actually leave. I think that's pretty good. It is also a written policy that Internet acess will be available for personal use, and it is up to supervisors to decide what is excessive. The important thing here is that everything is written down and up front - no surprises. That's extraordinarily generous, I think. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "VPN access" but, if it means access from a home system to the company's server, this may be the only type of remote access which ~is~ supported. Also, some organisations may have trouble keeping Internet email happening while making an ex-employee invisible to internal systems. I'd suggest Steve's best bet would be to get a private email account with an ISP and ask his employer to simply set an alias which redirects his inbound Internet email there. David From lannet at lannet.com.au Thu Dec 1 12:46:39 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Thu Dec 1 12:46:56 2005 Subject: FW: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection In-Reply-To: <3F8819281E85774CA6CE6F4FB842874F01FABEA7@gimli.shire.nla.gov.au> References: <3F8819281E85774CA6CE6F4FB842874F01FABEA7@gimli.shire.nla.gov.au> Message-ID: <438E55FF.9020505@lannet.com.au> Daniel Rose wrote: > If the staff member contacts me and requests a redirect, that's fine. > However I've never had a request to allow a staff member to use the > webmail account to send email after they've left the Library, and I'd > say no anyway unless overruled by upper management -- and if that > happened I wouldn't be happy about it! ...and written in DNA identifiable blood on stone :) -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From ivan.trundle at alia.org.au Thu Dec 1 12:53:34 2005 From: ivan.trundle at alia.org.au (Ivan Trundle) Date: Thu Dec 1 12:54:14 2005 Subject: FW: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection Message-ID: >>> "Daniel Rose" - 1/12/05 12:25 PM >>> >If the staff member contacts me and requests a redirect, that's fine. There is still some concern at this point. Redirecting e-mail is the equivalent of maintaining the account. It then relies on the ex-employee to return all business-related messages to the organisation: and to declare to the sender of the e-mail that s/he is no longer an employee - and to make this clear in every sense. This is an unacceptable risk in my workplace, and I'm certain that it is in others. I'm not suggesting that all ex-employees are malevolent, but nonetheless, the risk is there. It's the equivalent of forwarding all snail mail (cheques and invoices included), and phone calls. iT From cas at taz.net.au Thu Dec 1 12:56:51 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Thu Dec 1 12:57:04 2005 Subject: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection In-Reply-To: <20051201010215.GA27881@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> References: <001c01c5f5f9$2ce69d20$0200a8c0@CPQ27999229962> <20051201010215.GA27881@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <20051201015651.GM12961@taz.net.au> On Thu, Dec 01, 2005 at 12:02:15PM +1100, Danny Yee wrote: > This is like backups... people don't realise how important "owning" > their email address is till they lose it. yep. > I've been trying for some years to move all my personal mail from my > employer email (this one) to email addresses on my own domains, but > I haven't gone at that systematically yet. (Our policy here is to > provide forwards to students and staff who leave, if they want them, > but there's no guarantees that policy will persist when I leave.) there's another reason for having your own email address: whenever you send email from your work address you are representing your company, whether you realise it or not. your comments can be taken as being an official statement of the company - regardless of whether being a spokesperson is part of your job description or not. so, unless you're never likely to say anything that your employer would be unhappy about being associated with them (or for which THEY could be held responsible/liable), then you really ought to have your own separate email address for personal communications. it's better for you, and it's better for your employer. craig -- craig sanders From glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au Thu Dec 1 13:41:33 2005 From: glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au (Glen Turner) Date: Thu Dec 1 13:42:19 2005 Subject: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection In-Reply-To: <20051201015651.GM12961@taz.net.au> References: <001c01c5f5f9$2ce69d20$0200a8c0@CPQ27999229962> <20051201010215.GA27881@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> <20051201015651.GM12961@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <438E62DD.2010308@aarnet.edu.au> Craig Sanders wrote: > there's another reason for having your own email address: whenever you > send email from your work address you are representing your company, > whether you realise it or not. To my view the major concern is actually that your mail spool is sitting on your employer's hardware. Much better to have it sit on an ISP's hardware which is covered by the privacy conditions of the Telco Act (us employees of telcos are in a fortunate position). At my local council the mayor's e-mail spool was read by the city manager in a "routine" scan for "unauthorised" e-mail. It's a shame she didn't think to consult her doctor or lawyer using that mail account :-) -- Glen Turner Tel: (08) 8303 3936 or +61 8 8303 3936 Australia's Academic & Research Network www.aarnet.edu.au From jbirch at multinode.com.au Thu Dec 1 14:56:38 2005 From: jbirch at multinode.com.au (Jim Birch) Date: Thu Dec 1 14:56:47 2005 Subject: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection In-Reply-To: <001c01c5f5f9$2ce69d20$0200a8c0@CPQ27999229962> References: <001c01c5f5f9$2ce69d20$0200a8c0@CPQ27999229962> Message-ID: <438E7476.1080706@multinode.com.au> Steve Hill wrote: >Should I have realised what would happen and made changing my email address my first priority? >Your comments and/or similar experiences would be appreciated > > I see three main issues for you here. 1. New mail 2. Mail history 3. Address book 1. You could ask them nicely to do a redirect, but it gets messy. If company email is getting shunted off to you (now aka Joe Public) they run a serious risk of important business communications them being ignored or even misused. Deleting your address so the sender gets a bounce would be better for them because the sender will find an alternate contact. If your address is being redirected to another employee you could ask them to either forward personal stuff to your new external address, or probably better, do a standard reply to sender with your new address so the sender updates. 2. If you really need mail history (or feel the need to preserve a glittering lode of modern literature) you could ask them for some kind of export of your mail history, maybe for selected addresses. They might want someone to vet what you're getting your hands on which could be a lot of work. 3. Address Book. If you got this or can get it in some form, you can at least email your personal correspondents a new address. All this depends on your relationship with your ex-employer. If you've left on good terms they might be helpful; if you've moved to (or become) the opposition, things could well be different! I've actualy got a similar but more convoluted situation happening here. I am a full time employee of XYZ Ltd but am moving interstate for personal reasons soon. I have an XYZ company email account that I'm happy to loose. I also have a personal domain multinode.com.au which I set up when I was consulting. I kept my private emails on multinode to avoid your situation. But the plot thickens: Multinode stayed in business when I went to work for XYZ basically as an purchasing agent for XYZ run by me and the multinode mail server was housed at XYZ, also run by me. Now I'm leaving XYZ want to take over Multinode and maybe move some of their IT functions into it. They'd let me continue to use my multinode email address for as long as required but in the long term it wouldn't be desirable on either side so ultimately I'll loose the multinode address (which I had thought was pretty rock solid.) I'm leaving on good terms and remain trusted so don't have any problems taking my personal address books and mail history. But I'm up for a new address. I've got a gmail account and an ISP account but I think I'll be getting a .net domain to use purely for personal stuff for me and the family. But then there's an ongoing hosting cost. I'll look at id.au too. -- Jim Birch jbirch "at" multinode * com * au (for now) t: 04 1243 1243 ----- All major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses. --Bruce Leverett From link at todd.inoz.com Thu Dec 1 15:52:23 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Thu Dec 1 16:04:32 2005 Subject: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection In-Reply-To: <001c01c5f5f9$2ce69d20$0200a8c0@CPQ27999229962> References: <001c01c5f5f9$2ce69d20$0200a8c0@CPQ27999229962> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051201154802.030dc510@wheresmymailserver.com> At 08:58 AM 1/12/2005, Steve Hill wrote: >I have recently left my place of employment where I worked for over ten >years. As of yesterday (2 weeks on from my resignation) my email account >with that organisation has been disconnected without any prior notification. Seems this 14 day period is a very typical period as I noticed this was mentioned in a Rape trial in Tasmania. I tend to disable the accounts on the day of departure ;) >Obviously, my former employer has a right to do this, or does he? Yes, of course. You are no longer employed and hence no longer entitled to the address. Do you still use their telephone and fax? Stationery cupboard, Tea, Coffee? >Does it make any difference that I was allowed to use this email address >for both personal and business use? No, because clearly a term of "use" would have been "employment." Hence when employment ceased, so did the licence to use the email address. I keep telling people to get an INOZ.COM or an INAU.COM address for life! >Would this mean that I have at least a small claim to ownership of that >account and should have been given a few days notice of the disconnection? I don't belive so. I'm sure again, the coffee consumption isn't a right beyond employment! >Is there a point of law in having an email account that was used for >business and private use being disconnected? I can't see why. People change phone numbers all the time, people change residential and business addresses all the time, people change mobile phone numbers more often than some change their underwear! If you move house, do you have some perpetual right to use the address? No. I don't think so. Interesting question and I might try and wriggle that one into a Supreme Court hearing on Monday. >Should I have realised what would happen and made changing my email >address my first priority? Just like when you change home address, you go to Australia Post and pay a redirection fee. And you get you're telephone provide to put on a recorded message giving your new number. I'd suggest asking your employer if they can redirect the email for a few months from your old address. You may have to compromise to allowing an employee receive the email and determine if it is personal or business and forward as appropriate. From link at todd.inoz.com Thu Dec 1 15:59:31 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Thu Dec 1 16:04:45 2005 Subject: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection In-Reply-To: <20051201010215.GA27881@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> References: <001c01c5f5f9$2ce69d20$0200a8c0@CPQ27999229962> <20051201010215.GA27881@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051201155827.046bfda0@wheresmymailserver.com> >In improving order of long-term reliability, I'd rank the options as: > >* your employer >* your ISP (you might want to, or have to change) >* a small email service (could go out of business) >* a email service (e.g. hotmail, gmail) >* your own domain I'm guessing that was from lowest to highest! >So everyone go grab an id.au domain now, before all the good ones go! >Prices seem to be around $50 for two years. Or an INAU.COM for ZERO dollars per year provided you pay the $3 a month email service fee :) Or an INOZ.COM for around $36 a year, includes hosting :) I'm also happy to negotiate a fee for "delegation" of a domain to your own servers so I can forget about it unless you need a change :) Call is a "Community Service Announcement" and a benefit to Link :) From link at todd.inoz.com Thu Dec 1 15:55:21 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Thu Dec 1 16:04:49 2005 Subject: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection In-Reply-To: <20051201084507.Y88106@nfw.concero.com.au> References: <001c01c5f5f9$2ce69d20$0200a8c0@CPQ27999229962> <20051201084507.Y88106@nfw.concero.com.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051201155441.0384fac8@wheresmymailserver.com> >My revenge consisted of a formal complaint to the TIO, which escalated to >the second level, thereby causing them to pay a fee to the TIO. Small >satisfaction I know, but it felt good at the time :) Plus I got my address >back for a week or so. But by that time I was already unsubscribed from >most mail lists. You nasty nasty boi! >I guess over the last ten years I've been on the Internet, I've only ever >had 2 email addresses, my current one being the third, and all employer owned. I've always had my own personally controlled domain name. >Might have to finally get one of them .id addresses. Why not get an INOZ.COM or an INAU.COM, I can delegate to you and forget about it forever :) A few Linkers are using these for their own personal use. And the small fee I charge goes towards keeping me off the Dole Queue :) From link at todd.inoz.com Thu Dec 1 15:57:43 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Thu Dec 1 16:05:19 2005 Subject: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection In-Reply-To: <438E48B2.8080601@lannet.com.au> References: <438E48B2.8080601@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051201155637.04473008@wheresmymailserver.com> At 11:49 AM 1/12/2005, Howard Lowndes wrote: >Ivan Trundle wrote: >>In my workpace, the address is removed from the moment that the >>resignation is effective. Considering the damage that can be done (or >>the risk involved) by someone using a workplace address whilst no >>longer employed in that workplace, most system administrators would not >>even entertain two weeks for an ex-employee to sort things out. > >Having said that, it's still amazing that many business/organisations have >an entry procedure which has all the necessary email accounts and data >access set up for the new employee, but fail to address the same things in >their exit procedures, many of which consist solely of the departure tea >and hand over of the termination cheque. I think many places keep the address operation for the purpose of catching any stray inbound email of a commercial nature. I said before that I delete the users account, but I do redirect the address to my own spool in case something important is sent. I normally find that after 2 weeks there is no email destined to the address. From stephen at melbpc.org.au Thu Dec 1 17:22:06 2005 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley) Date: Thu Dec 1 17:22:25 2005 Subject: [LINK] RFC: GNU GPL Revision Message-ID: <20051201062215.A822A13F73@vscan41.melbpc.org.au> Free Software Foundation Releases Guidelines for Revising GNU GPL New York - Nov 30, 2005 - The Free Software Foundation (FSF) and the Software Freedom Law Center (SFLC) today released a document specifying the process and guidelines for revising the Foundation's GNU General Public License (GNU GPL). The GNU GPL is the most widely used Free Software license worldwide: Almost three quarters of all Free Software programs (also known as Free and Open Source Software, or FOSS) are distributed under this license. Since the GPL's last revision more than 15 years ago, software development and the business of distributing software have changed dramatically. Research firm Gartner recently predicted that by 2010 more than 75 percent of IT organizations will have formal acquisition and management strategies dealing with Free Software. As a result, business enterprises, as well as individual users and developers, will have an interest in the content of the new license. "The guiding principle for developing the GPL is to defend the freedom of all users," said Richard Stallman, founder of the Free Software Foundation. "As we address the issues raised by the community, we will do so in terms of the four basic freedoms software users are entitled to -- to study, copy, modify and redistribute the software they use. GPLv3 will be designed to protect those freedoms under current technical and social conditions and will address new forms of use and current global requirements for commercial and non-commercial users." The document being made public today, "GPLv3 Process Definition," outlines the principles, the timeline and the process for public comment and issue resolution and can be viewed at http://gplv3.fsf.org "It is an exciting time in the history of software, particularly in the history of the Free Software movement," said Eben Moglen, general counsel to the Free Software Foundation and founding director of the Software Freedom Law Center, which is providing logistical support and legal advice to the Free Software Foundation. "Through this process, all voices will be heard. We will evaluate every opinion and will consider all arguments in light of the GPL's goals. The process is accessible, transparent and public for all those who want to participate." -- From brd at iimetro.com.au Thu Dec 1 17:53:40 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Thu Dec 1 17:53:56 2005 Subject: [LINK] AIIA open source event a closed shop Message-ID: <438E9DF4.91371E13@iimetro.com.au> AIIA open source event a closed shop By Sam Varghese Comment SMH December 1, 2005 - 2:26PM http://www.smh.com.au/news/breaking/aiia-open-source-event-a-closed-shop/2005/12/01/1133311148312.html The Australian Information Industry Association appears to have decided to educate the corporate world about the use of open source software - but it doesn't want any media present while it does so. This morning in Melbourne, the AIIA held an industry forum for 120 people. Any media people who tried to register in the run-up to the event were turned away on the grounds that "frank discussion" would not take place if journalists were present. Last evening, the Canberra-based AIIA representative James McAdam spent a considerable time on the telephone with me, trying to dissuade me from turning up for the event. His argument was that it would be "discourteous to our members" if the media turned up for events which he said were for AIIA members only. When it was pointed out that this could not be for members only, as representatives of several vendors and other organisations were also attending, he had no argument to voice. The Victorian AIIA representative, Kee Wong, who was one of the organisers, said there would be no space for the media. However, according to attendees, there were several empty seats at the morning's forum; even though it was over-subscribed, several of those who registered did not turn up. Mr Wong's paranoia was so great that at one stage he asked me not to turn up and try to register under a false name. The event was conducted jointly with the Victorian Government and representatives of Centrelink, IBM, Novell, Red Hat, Amazon, and the John Holland construction company provided insights into the use of open source, both from the perspectives of vendors and users. Novell's Paul Kangro, Red Hat Linux's Max McLaren, IBM's Ivan Kladnig and CyberSource's Con Zymaris were among those presenting arguments in favour of open source. On the other side, Microsoft's Martin Gregory put forward the arguments for his organisation's proprietary products. Tech consultant David Boyles, a former chief information officer and chief operating officer of ANZ, moderated the discussion. But the details of the discussions will remain secret. At times when open source meets closed minds, the latter tend to prevail. -- Many people think that open source projects are sort of chaotic and and anarchistic. They think that developers randomly throw code at the code base and see what sticks. -- Mitchell Baker Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From lannet at lannet.com.au Thu Dec 1 18:43:18 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Thu Dec 1 18:43:46 2005 Subject: [LINK] AIIA open source event a closed shop In-Reply-To: <438E9DF4.91371E13@iimetro.com.au> References: <438E9DF4.91371E13@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <438EA996.2040301@lannet.com.au> The media might feel highly miffed at being refused attendance, but they have to realise that they do not have a deity given right to go where they please. Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > AIIA open source event a closed shop > By Sam Varghese > Comment > SMH > December 1, 2005 - 2:26PM > http://www.smh.com.au/news/breaking/aiia-open-source-event-a-closed-shop/2005/12/01/1133311148312.html > > The Australian Information Industry Association appears to have decided to > educate the corporate world about the use of open source software - but it > doesn't want any media present while it does so. > > This morning in Melbourne, the AIIA held an industry forum for 120 people. Any > media people who tried to register in the run-up to the event were turned away > on the grounds that "frank discussion" would not take place if journalists were > present. > > Last evening, the Canberra-based AIIA representative James McAdam spent a > considerable time on the telephone with me, trying to dissuade me from turning > up for the event. > > His argument was that it would be "discourteous to our members" if the media > turned up for events which he said were for AIIA members only. > > When it was pointed out that this could not be for members only, as > representatives of several vendors and other organisations were also attending, > he had no argument to voice. > > The Victorian AIIA representative, Kee Wong, who was one of the organisers, > said there would be no space for the media. However, according to attendees, > there were several empty seats at the morning's forum; even though it was > over-subscribed, several of those who registered did not turn up. > > Mr Wong's paranoia was so great that at one stage he asked me not to turn up > and try to register under a false name. > > The event was conducted jointly with the Victorian Government and > representatives of Centrelink, IBM, Novell, Red Hat, Amazon, and the John > Holland construction company provided insights into the use of open source, > both from the perspectives of vendors and users. > > Novell's Paul Kangro, Red Hat Linux's Max McLaren, IBM's Ivan Kladnig and > CyberSource's Con Zymaris were among those presenting arguments in favour of > open source. On the other side, Microsoft's Martin Gregory put forward the > arguments for his organisation's proprietary products. > > Tech consultant David Boyles, a former chief information officer and chief > operating officer of ANZ, moderated the discussion. > > But the details of the discussions will remain secret. At times when open > source meets closed minds, the latter tend to prevail. > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Thu Dec 1 19:36:35 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Thu Dec 1 19:36:27 2005 Subject: [LINK] AIIA open source event a closed shop In-Reply-To: <438E9DF4.91371E13@iimetro.com.au> References: <438E9DF4.91371E13@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <438EB613.50305@ozemail.com.au> It's hardly a rarity for people to say "no media" if they want completely open private discussion. (media hat on) We're apt to think that any exclusion of media comes from dishonourable motives. Sometimes it's just because people want to say exactly what they think, without having to worry about it being a "good look" in front of the boss... RC Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: >AIIA open source event a closed shop >By Sam Varghese >Comment >SMH >December 1, 2005 - 2:26PM >http://www.smh.com.au/news/breaking/aiia-open-source-event-a-closed-shop/2005/12/01/1133311148312.html > >The Australian Information Industry Association appears to have decided to >educate the corporate world about the use of open source software - but it >doesn't want any media present while it does so. > >This morning in Melbourne, the AIIA held an industry forum for 120 people. Any >media people who tried to register in the run-up to the event were turned away >on the grounds that "frank discussion" would not take place if journalists were >present. > >Last evening, the Canberra-based AIIA representative James McAdam spent a >considerable time on the telephone with me, trying to dissuade me from turning >up for the event. > >His argument was that it would be "discourteous to our members" if the media >turned up for events which he said were for AIIA members only. > >When it was pointed out that this could not be for members only, as >representatives of several vendors and other organisations were also attending, >he had no argument to voice. > >The Victorian AIIA representative, Kee Wong, who was one of the organisers, >said there would be no space for the media. However, according to attendees, >there were several empty seats at the morning's forum; even though it was >over-subscribed, several of those who registered did not turn up. > >Mr Wong's paranoia was so great that at one stage he asked me not to turn up >and try to register under a false name. > >The event was conducted jointly with the Victorian Government and >representatives of Centrelink, IBM, Novell, Red Hat, Amazon, and the John >Holland construction company provided insights into the use of open source, >both from the perspectives of vendors and users. > >Novell's Paul Kangro, Red Hat Linux's Max McLaren, IBM's Ivan Kladnig and >CyberSource's Con Zymaris were among those presenting arguments in favour of >open source. On the other side, Microsoft's Martin Gregory put forward the >arguments for his organisation's proprietary products. > >Tech consultant David Boyles, a former chief information officer and chief >operating officer of ANZ, moderated the discussion. > >But the details of the discussions will remain secret. At times when open >source meets closed minds, the latter tend to prevail. > > > From kauer at biplane.com.au Thu Dec 1 20:10:54 2005 From: kauer at biplane.com.au (Karl Auer) Date: Thu Dec 1 20:11:11 2005 Subject: [LINK] AIIA open source event a closed shop In-Reply-To: <438E9DF4.91371E13@iimetro.com.au> References: <438E9DF4.91371E13@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <20051201201054.2205783b.kauer@biplane.com.au> > The Australian Information Industry Association appears to have decided to > educate the corporate world about the use of open source software - but it > doesn't want any media present while it does so. So what? Makes sense to me - people trying to overcome their prejudice, ignorance or whatever may quite reasonably want to do so without fearing that they will be ridiculed in the press. Good on them. > His argument was that it would be "discourteous to our members" if the media > turned up for events which he said were for AIIA members only. He should not have had to make any arguments at all. His clearly stated wish that the media not be present should have been enough. > Mr Wong's paranoia was so great that at one stage he asked me not to turn up > and try to register under a false name. Well - yes. Because that's exactly the sort of the thing that the media has done, does, and presumably will continue to do. For some reason the media, even as it pillories others who follow that path, uses the ends to justify the means all too often. > But the details of the discussions will remain secret. At times when open > source meets closed minds, the latter tend to prevail. That's a long stretch, Bernard. Seems to me that they were attempting that most difficult thing: Their own reeducation. Not the sign of a closed mind at all. We are not talking a court proceeding here, or a Government decision-making process or anything else that is properly conducted in clear sight of the public eye. You message sounds suspiciously like the media stamping its little foot because someone wouldn't let them play. If the media cannot show pretty clearly that exposing some proceeding is in the public interest, then privacy should take precedence. Dark mutterings don't cut it. Regards, K. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au) +61-2-64957160 (w/h) http://www.biplane.com.au/~kauer/ +61-428-957160 (mob) From paul.mcgowan at yawarra.com.au Thu Dec 1 21:17:15 2005 From: paul.mcgowan at yawarra.com.au (Paul McGowan) Date: Thu Dec 1 21:17:29 2005 Subject: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection In-Reply-To: <438E7476.1080706@multinode.com.au> References: <001c01c5f5f9$2ce69d20$0200a8c0@CPQ27999229962> Message-ID: <438F685B.21519.2D43A86@localhost> Jim Birch wrote: > > But I'm up for a new address. I've got a gmail account and an ISP > account but I think I'll be getting a .net domain to use purely for > personal stuff for me and the family. But then there's an ongoing > hosting cost. I'll look at id.au too. > Not necessarily a hosting cost Jim (unless you count domain registration and renewal as hosting). I have done the same thing since the ISP I worked for a few years back was sold and the service went downhill. For 12 Euros a year, you can get a .net (or .com if you want) from gandi.net. They're French, so the English version of their website is occasionally amusing, but their service is very good. As part of the 12 Euros (about AUD$20 - not very much anyway) you can redirect your mail to whatever ISP account you happen to be using right now. Currently I'm with Optus, but no-one ever sees my optusnet address, so when I need to change ISP next time, no-one needs to know. I looked into getting an id.au for our family, but they wouldn't let me use something that wasn't my name. Not so great for my wife, who has a different name. At that point we'd need a domain for me, and one for her, making it quite a bit more expensive that a .net the whole family can use, and which can be anything we want, not just our name. Cheers, Paul McGowan From josh at email.nu Thu Dec 1 21:44:01 2005 From: josh at email.nu (Josh Rowe) Date: Thu Dec 1 21:44:12 2005 Subject: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection In-Reply-To: <20051201010215.GA27881@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <20051201104404.YCBN16720.omta01sl.mx.bigpond.com@five> -----Original Message----- From: Danny Yee Sent: Thursday, 1 December 2005 12:02 PM To: Link Subject: Re: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection [snip-snip] > So everyone go grab an id.au domain now, before all the good ones go! > Prices seem to be around $50 for two years. id.au's are down to $25/2yr now ... Price Comparison of auDA Accredited Registrars http://whatsinaname.com.au/ Josh -- http://josh.id.au/ From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Fri Dec 2 08:43:43 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Fri Dec 2 08:49:14 2005 Subject: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection In-Reply-To: <438E48B2.8080601@lannet.com.au> References: <438E48B2.8080601@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20051202083911.020a8f50@popa.melbpc.org.au> At 11:49 AM 1/12/2005, Howard Lowndes wrote: >Ivan Trundle wrote: >>In my workpace, the address is removed from the moment that the >>resignation is effective. Considering the damage that can be done (or >>the risk involved) by someone using a workplace address whilst no >>longer employed in that workplace, most system administrators would not >>even entertain two weeks for an ex-employee to sort things out. Rather than have this be an unpleasant aspect to what may be a mutual decision for separation, why not just add it to the list of things to be discussed prior to departure, say 2 weeks before? There are lots of handover activities in most jobs. That would give the leaver time to get his/her affairs in order, including this. Of course, if it is an 'escorted' departure, ahem, then all deals are off and it would be for the protection of the company to disable or suspend any accounts immediately. I don't think it's a 'one size fits all' decision, although the main thing is to provide appropriate closure. I had an account with my previous employer long beyond the time I left. It was handy for accessing files that I had to download to get [they eventually burned me a disc which I have around somewhere] and the main thing was that they trusted me not to do anything stupid. I had worked in the central IT department and with those in the most recent assignment area, so I wasn't a threat at all. Jan JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au Fri Dec 2 10:10:33 2005 From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington) Date: Fri Dec 2 10:12:35 2005 Subject: [LINK] The CIA uncovers a secret: how to look things up on the internet In-Reply-To: References: <90B2D7E0-FD82-4351-8C5E-6C255BA09A9F@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051130121033.038456f0@fastmail.fm> At 02:49 PM 11/29/2005, Roger Clarke wrote: >... But even the term 'open source intelligence' is becoming venerable. >There have been conferences since the early 1990s. Robert David Steele's >book was about 1992. ... And the Linkers bought him a drink while he told us about it and was interviewed by the TV news at the National Press Club in 1998 . Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 http://www.tomw.net.au/ Director, ACS Communications Tech Board http://www.acs.org.au/ctb/ Visiting Fellow, ANU Blog: http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/atom.xml From mikal at stillhq.com Fri Dec 2 11:30:33 2005 From: mikal at stillhq.com (Michael Still) Date: Fri Dec 2 11:33:41 2005 Subject: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection In-Reply-To: <200511302220.jAUMK0V25035@carpediem.eintellego.net> References: <200511302220.jAUMK0V25035@carpediem.eintellego.net> Message-ID: <438F95A9.3080800@stillhq.com> Skeeve Stevens wrote: > It could be possible for you to go to court to get it re-instated for a > period... I'm not sure on what basis though. But, the easiest obvious > avenue would be to make a deal with the employer... Have you talked to them? > They were probably just following protocols... With that long at the > company, they might be willing to restore it for a period (even if there is > a cost associated). If I was the employer I would be concerned about work information "leaking" to you now that you're no longer in my employ. I would therefore always reject requests for staff email access to remain any longer than the bare minimum. Mikal From mikal at stillhq.com Fri Dec 2 11:32:30 2005 From: mikal at stillhq.com (Michael Still) Date: Fri Dec 2 11:36:37 2005 Subject: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection In-Reply-To: <438E48B2.8080601@lannet.com.au> References: <438E48B2.8080601@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <438F961E.1010104@stillhq.com> Howard Lowndes wrote: >> In my workpace, the address is removed from the moment that the >> resignation is effective. Considering the damage that can be done (or >> the risk involved) by someone using a workplace address whilst no >> longer employed in that workplace, most system administrators would not >> even entertain two weeks for an ex-employee to sort things out. > > Having said that, it's still amazing that many business/organisations > have an entry procedure which has all the necessary email accounts and > data access set up for the new employee, but fail to address the same > things in their exit procedures, many of which consist solely of the > departure tea and hand over of the termination cheque. For sure. In fact, why remove the account? There might be important incoming mail, which should at the very least be archived. I would probably just change the password to something the user doesn't know. Mikal From eleanor at pacific.net.au Fri Dec 2 13:19:19 2005 From: eleanor at pacific.net.au (Eleanor Lister) Date: Fri Dec 2 13:19:27 2005 Subject: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection In-Reply-To: <438F961E.1010104@stillhq.com> References: <438E48B2.8080601@lannet.com.au> <438F961E.1010104@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <438FAF27.5000400@pacific.net.au> Michael Still wrote: > Howard Lowndes wrote: > >>> In my workpace, the address is removed from the moment that the >>> resignation is effective. Considering the damage that can be done (or >>> the risk involved) by someone using a workplace address whilst no >>> longer employed in that workplace, most system administrators would not >>> even entertain two weeks for an ex-employee to sort things out. >> >> >> Having said that, it's still amazing that many business/organisations >> have an entry procedure which has all the necessary email accounts >> and data access set up for the new employee, but fail to address the >> same things in their exit procedures, many of which consist solely of >> the departure tea and hand over of the termination cheque. > > > For sure. > > In fact, why remove the account? There might be important incoming > mail, which should at the very least be archived. I would probably > just change the password to something the user doesn't know. > > Mikal sounds like the wrong question ... surely the entry procedure should have separate email accounts for work and personal use; then on exit you just lock the ex-employee out of the work one, and re-direct the personal one, with a request to notify personal contacts within, say, 30 days. *shrug* works for me, and no controversy. regards, EL From jbirch at multinode.com.au Fri Dec 2 13:30:21 2005 From: jbirch at multinode.com.au (Jim Birch) Date: Fri Dec 2 13:30:33 2005 Subject: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection In-Reply-To: <438F961E.1010104@stillhq.com> References: <438E48B2.8080601@lannet.com.au> <438F961E.1010104@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <438FB1BD.9090508@multinode.com.au> Michael Still wrote: > In fact, why remove the account? There might be important incoming > mail, which should at the very least be archived. I would probably > just change the password to something the user doesn't know. Depends on the organisation. Here, we have publication deadlines. We might alias the email address to someone else for a week or two in some cases. Clients will have clear contact points and if these change everyone gets told. It would generally be better for the client to get a bounce - they'd phone up - than run the risk of an email being ingested and not handled in a timely manner. Jim -- Jim Birch jbirch@multinode.com.au t: 04 1243 1243 ----- Tech support: What's on your monitor now? End user: A teddy bear my boyfriend bought for me in the supermarket. From lannet at lannet.com.au Sat Dec 3 05:50:52 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Sat Dec 3 05:51:10 2005 Subject: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection In-Reply-To: <438FAF27.5000400@pacific.net.au> References: <438E48B2.8080601@lannet.com.au> <438F961E.1010104@stillhq.com> <438FAF27.5000400@pacific.net.au> Message-ID: <4390978C.50303@lannet.com.au> Eleanor Lister wrote: > Michael Still wrote: > > >>Howard Lowndes wrote: >> >> >>>>In my workpace, the address is removed from the moment that the >>>>resignation is effective. Considering the damage that can be done (or >>>>the risk involved) by someone using a workplace address whilst no >>>>longer employed in that workplace, most system administrators would not >>>>even entertain two weeks for an ex-employee to sort things out. >>> >>> >>>Having said that, it's still amazing that many business/organisations >>>have an entry procedure which has all the necessary email accounts >>>and data access set up for the new employee, but fail to address the >>>same things in their exit procedures, many of which consist solely of >>>the departure tea and hand over of the termination cheque. >> >> >>For sure. >> >>In fact, why remove the account? There might be important incoming >>mail, which should at the very least be archived. I would probably >>just change the password to something the user doesn't know. >> >>Mikal > > > sounds like the wrong question ... surely the entry procedure should > have separate email accounts for work and personal use; My problem here is that if an employer provides an account for expressly personal use, I still don't see how it can absolve their liability for any material that is posted from that account. It's still the employer's account and it's still their responsibility. then on exit you > just lock the ex-employee out of the work one, and re-direct the > personal one, with a request to notify personal contacts within, say, 30 > days. > > *shrug* works for me, and no controversy. > > regards, > EL > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From link at todd.inoz.com Sat Dec 3 12:27:32 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Sat Dec 3 12:30:10 2005 Subject: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection In-Reply-To: <438F961E.1010104@stillhq.com> References: <438E48B2.8080601@lannet.com.au> <438F961E.1010104@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051203122540.0321b9c0@wheresmymailserver.com> >In fact, why remove the account? There might be important incoming mail, >which should at the very least be archived. I would probably just change >the password to something the user doesn't know. 1. Delete user account. 2(a) (Sendmail) /etc/mail/virtualdomains user@company.com.au boss@company.com.au OR 2(b) (Sendmail and others) /etc/mail/aliases user@company.com.au boss, exemployee@somedomain.com No need to change passwords, mail ends up in the bosses account and everyone is happy :) From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Sat Dec 3 16:38:54 2005 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Sat Dec 3 16:39:08 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: MR58-05: Growing diversity in regional telecommunications services References: <07217800011334812887565@optinmailserver.com> Message-ID: <4D2FFC1C-40C8-4831-9B4E-994067A6A807@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Begin forwarded message: > From: "Australian Communications & Media Authority" > > Date: 2 December 2005 10:54:48 AM > To: > Subject: MR58-05: Growing diversity in regional telecommunications > services > Reply-To: broadcasting@acma.gov.au > > New infrastructure, products and services are increasingly being > offered by telecommunications carriers in regional markets, > according to a new report by the Australian Communications and > Media Authority. > The report, Telecommunications Services Availability in Australia > 2004?05, covers the availability of fixed voice, mobile and data > services in metropolitan, regional and remote areas of Australia. > The full media release can be viewed at http://www.acma.gov.au/ > ACMAINTER:STANDARD::pc=PC_100351. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------- > UNSUBSCRIBE INFORMATION > This email was sent to tony@tony-barry.emu.id.au, by
Mailing > list manager. > To opt-out of any future messages, please use the url below:- > http://elmn.com/?0055689801595tony@tony-barry.emu.id.au > We will respect your decision to receive no further emails from us. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------- > > phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From stephen at melbpc.org.au Sun Dec 4 23:59:47 2005 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley) Date: Mon Dec 5 00:00:09 2005 Subject: [LINK] Vic Gov responses to some e-democracy recommendations Message-ID: <20051204125956.9AA0A13FEF@vscan41.melbpc.org.au> Given the impressive history of attention to e-democracy by the Vic Gov some of the Government's responses to recommendations, which were tabled on 17 Nov 2005, may seem disappointing. http://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/sarc/E-Democracy/Response_to_eDemocracy_Report.rtf .. Recommendation 80 The Parliament of Victoria should introduce an online petitions facility on a trial basis, subject to ongoing evaluation as to the benefits offered to Victorians. The Victorian online petition system should include a moderated discussion facility, similar to that provided by the Scottish Parliament. This system should be developed in open source, if possible, with access to the code available (at minimum) to the Local Government sector in Victoria. * The Government notes the Committee’s recommendation. The recommendation is a matter that is properly for Parliament’s consideration. Parliament, in considering the recommendation, should ensure that its implementation would constitute the best use of available resources. Recommendation 81 The Parliamentary template for paper petitions should be amended to allow for optional collection of email addresses or other electronic means of communication, in order to allow the petitioner to receive information about the status and tabling of their petition from the Parliament. The Parliament should pilot a postal feedback system. * The Government notes the Committee’s recommendation. The recommendation is a matter that is properly for Parliament’s consideration. Parliament, in considering the recommendation, should ensure that its implementation would constitute the best use of available resources. Recommendation 82 The Parliamentary commitment to the introduction of ICT-enabled consultation and participation processes must be matched with a tangible investment in staff, training, tools and promotional resources. * The Government notes the Committee’s recommendation. The recommendation is a matter that is properly for Parliament’s consideration. Parliament, in considering the recommendation, should ensure that its implementation would constitute the best use of available resources. -- Regards all .. Stephen Loosley From pbrooks-link at bwp.net.au Mon Dec 5 00:23:48 2005 From: pbrooks-link at bwp.net.au (Paul Brooks) Date: Mon Dec 5 00:24:07 2005 Subject: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection In-Reply-To: <438F685B.21519.2D43A86@localhost> References: <438E7476.1080706@multinode.com.au> Message-ID: <43938894.10138.2DE0A80@localhost> Paul McGowan wrote: > Jim Birch wrote: > > > > > But I'm up for a new address. I've got a gmail account and an ISP > > account but I think I'll be getting a .net domain to use purely for > > personal stuff for me and the family. But then there's an ongoing > > hosting cost. I'll look at id.au too. > > [...] > Currently I'm with Optus, but no-one ever sees my optusnet address, > so when I need to change ISP next time, no-one needs to know. > > I looked into getting an id.au for our family, but they wouldn't let > me use something that wasn't my name. Not so great for my wife, who > has a different name. At that point we'd need a domain for me, and > one for her, making it quite a bit more expensive that a .net the > whole family can use, and which can be anything we want, not just our > name. FWIW, I did the same thing for personal mail, after moving house for a year and then moving back, and changing ISP email addresses 3 times in quick succession. I registered an id.au domain for the family, with email redirection for several 'users' to any real address, to protect me against having to change addresses when changing ISPs ever again. Nobody sees my ISP address, so I can change it at will. Now my wife and each kid has their 'own' permanent email address, and a 'default catchall' forwarded so that even something like 'dickbrain@....id.au' will get to me - which can be an amusing conversation piece at parties..... --- Dr Paul Brooks | pbrooks@bwp.net.au Technology Partner | Mob 0414 366 605 Brooks Worrad & Partners | Ph +61 2 9402 7355 From lannet at lannet.com.au Mon Dec 5 04:52:03 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Mon Dec 5 04:52:20 2005 Subject: [LINK] Email Account Disconnection In-Reply-To: <43938894.10138.2DE0A80@localhost> References: <438E7476.1080706@multinode.com.au> <43938894.10138.2DE0A80@localhost> Message-ID: <43932CC3.8000203@lannet.com.au> Another one you might want to consider, if you have an uncommon name, is the .name TLD I have 'howard AT lowndes DOT name' registered with Godaddy (pse excuse the anti-spam corruption, but I don't know whether the LINK archives are public or private) for under US$10 per year (for up to 10 years if I wish) and I can redirect that to my current ISP account. Paul Brooks wrote: > Paul McGowan wrote: > >>Jim Birch wrote: >> >> >>>But I'm up for a new address. I've got a gmail account and an ISP >>>account but I think I'll be getting a .net domain to use purely for >>>personal stuff for me and the family. But then there's an ongoing >>>hosting cost. I'll look at id.au too. >>> > > [...] > >>Currently I'm with Optus, but no-one ever sees my optusnet address, >>so when I need to change ISP next time, no-one needs to know. >> >>I looked into getting an id.au for our family, but they wouldn't let >>me use something that wasn't my name. Not so great for my wife, who >>has a different name. At that point we'd need a domain for me, and >>one for her, making it quite a bit more expensive that a .net the >>whole family can use, and which can be anything we want, not just our >>name. > > > FWIW, I did the same thing for personal mail, after moving house for a > year and then moving back, and changing ISP email addresses 3 times in > quick succession. I registered an id.au domain for the family, with email > redirection for several 'users' to any real address, to protect me > against having to change addresses when changing ISPs ever again. Nobody > sees my ISP address, so I can change it at will. Now my wife and each kid > has their 'own' permanent email address, and a 'default catchall' > forwarded so that even something like 'dickbrain@....id.au' will get to > me - which can be an amusing conversation piece at parties..... > > > --- > Dr Paul Brooks | pbrooks@bwp.net.au > Technology Partner | Mob 0414 366 605 > Brooks Worrad & Partners | Ph +61 2 9402 7355 > > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au Mon Dec 5 11:11:46 2005 From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee) Date: Mon Dec 5 11:11:56 2005 Subject: [LINK] Falun Gong spam Message-ID: <20051205001146.GA17197@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> Is there any faster way for an organisation to lose respect and support than by spamming all and sundry? | Subject: An Open letter to all Members of Parliament | | Dear Mailman, | | For your urgent attention. Please be aware that: | * Over 6 million People Renounce the Chinese Communist Party membership | (http://www.TheEpochTimes.com) Of course this could be a Chinese black-op, but I hardly think they'd want to publicise the URLs being spammed, so I think this can be safely blamed on Falun Gong or its supporters. Danny. ---------------------------------------------------------- http://dannyreviews.com/ - over eight hundred book reviews http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog ---------------------------------------------------------- From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Mon Dec 5 14:57:19 2005 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Mon Dec 5 14:58:19 2005 Subject: [LINK] Paymate and Paypal Message-ID: It was about time I went looking for an outline of how Paypal, Paymate (et al.?) work, and how well they stack up from a consumer perspective. Paymate makes a decent fist of describing its processes: http://www.paymate.com.au/help/help.do?helpSet=paymate&item=howtopay https://www.paymate.com.au/help/paymate/payments/complaints.html As a comparison of Paymate and PayPal, this is interesting: http://forums.ebay.com.au/thread.jspa?threadID=600000165&tstart=0&mod=1132631164901 Re Paypal, these give cause to pause: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paypal http://www.paypalwarning.com/ http://www.paypalsucks.com/ PayPal's consumer-oriented pages are utterly inadequate: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/bizui/WhatIsPayPal-outside http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_help-ext&eloc=26&loc=5&unique_id=1345&source_page=p/gen/about-outside&flow= This business-oriented page doesn't help much: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_wp-standard-feature-list-outside These are a little more useful: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_profile-comparison https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_feature-and-pricing-comparison Here's an ancient (2001) 'How PayPal Works' page: http://www.lowendmac.com/musings/paypal.html And here's a more recent one, but not very deep: http://www.dummies.com/WileyCDA/DummiesArticle/id-2977.html Basically PayPal looks like it's seriously consumer-unfriendly. -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Mon Dec 5 15:11:27 2005 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Mon Dec 5 15:11:40 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: Media briefing - TELECOMMUNICATIONS PERFORMANCE REPORT 2004-05 References: <07938310011337547236184@optinmailserver.com> Message-ID: <3D9EA011-7A9F-4802-9AAC-9ABD5EA6C467@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Begin forwarded message: > From: "Australian Communications & Media Authority" > > Date: 5 December 2005 2:52:03 PM > To: > Subject: Media briefing - TELECOMMUNICATIONS PERFORMANCE REPORT > 2004-05 > Reply-To: broadcasting@acma.gov.au > > The Australian Communications and Media Authority?s > Telecommunications Performance Report 2004-05 is scheduled to be > tabled in Parliament tomorrow, Tuesday 6 December. > The Telecommunications Act 1997 requires ACMA to monitor and report > to the Minister for Communications, Information Technology and the > Arts on all significant matters relating to the performance of > carriers and carrier service providers, with particular reference > to consumer satisfaction, consumer benefits and quality of service. > This comprehensive document is an annual report card on the > performance of the Australian telecommunications industry. > ACMA will hold media briefings on the report at 3.30 pm tomorrow, > Tuesday 6 December, in Melbourne and by video link to Sydney. > Copies of the report and a detailed chapter by chapter summary will > be available at the briefings. > The Melbourne briefing will be held at > ACMA Melbourne Central Office > Level 44 > Melbourne Central Tower > 360 Elizabeth Street > Melbourne > The Sydney briefing will take place at > ACMA Sydney Central Office > Level 15 Tower 1 Darling Park > 201 Sussex Street > Sydney > Camera crews can set up from 3.00 pm > Media contacts: > Donald Robertson, ACMA Media Manager on (02 9334 7980 or 0418 86 1766. > Paul Slocum, ACMA Manager Communications/Media on (03) 9963 6966 or > 0408 152 471. > (end) > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------- > UNSUBSCRIBE INFORMATION > This email was sent to tony@tony-barry.emu.id.au, by
Mailing > list manager. > To opt-out of any future messages, please use the url below:- > http://elmn.com/?0055817101595tony@tony-barry.emu.id.au > We will respect your decision to receive no further emails from us. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------- > > phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Mon Dec 5 15:55:11 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Mon Dec 5 15:55:22 2005 Subject: [LINK] Paymate and Paypal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051205125511.czr6jh8j7sv4k0ww@mymail.com.au> Quoting Roger Clarke : Let me add that a quick perusal of the ASIC website is also suggestive ... in particular, the chronology of events surrounding the use of the Paypal name here! RC > > It was about time I went looking for an outline of how Paypal, > Paymate (et al.?) work, and how well they stack up from a consumer > perspective. > > Paymate makes a decent fist of describing its processes: > http://www.paymate.com.au/help/help.do?helpSet=paymate&item=howtopay > https://www.paymate.com.au/help/paymate/payments/complaints.html > > As a comparison of Paymate and PayPal, this is interesting: > http://forums.ebay.com.au/thread.jspa?threadID=600000165&tstart=0&mod=1132631164901 > > Re Paypal, these give cause to pause: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paypal > http://www.paypalwarning.com/ > http://www.paypalsucks.com/ > > PayPal's consumer-oriented pages are utterly inadequate: > https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/bizui/WhatIsPayPal-outside > http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_help-ext&eloc=26&loc=5&unique_id=1345&source_page=p/gen/about-outside&flow= > > This business-oriented page doesn't help much: > https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_wp-standard-feature-list-outside > > These are a little more useful: > https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_profile-comparison > https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_feature-and-pricing-comparison > > Here's an ancient (2001) 'How PayPal Works' page: > http://www.lowendmac.com/musings/paypal.html > > And here's a more recent one, but not very deep: > http://www.dummies.com/WileyCDA/DummiesArticle/id-2977.html > > Basically PayPal looks like it's seriously consumer-unfriendly. > > -- > Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ > > Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA > Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 > mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ > > Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University > Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong > Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using MyMail From brendansweb at optusnet.com.au Mon Dec 5 18:04:51 2005 From: brendansweb at optusnet.com.au (Brendan Scott) Date: Mon Dec 5 18:01:32 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit Message-ID: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> Can anyone tell me whether the Sony rootkit debacle got much coverage in AU press? Thanks Brendan From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Mon Dec 5 19:04:59 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Mon Dec 5 19:05:10 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> References: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <4393F4AB.4060801@ozemail.com.au> Not much, Brendan. I can't be bothered to source the now-73 stories listed by Google News for Sony rootkit location:australia - but the first 10 are entirely syndicated pieces, not written here. If you then exclude the AAP/AFP/Reuters stories, you'd be left with not much which constitutes local research. I find it amazing. Since Sony's most recent page-three news in Australia was losing a court case over copy-protection; but the rootkit was a non-event for about 10 days after the story broke, in most outlets. RC Brendan Scott wrote: > Can anyone tell me whether the Sony rootkit debacle got much coverage > in AU press? > > Thanks > > > Brendan > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Mon Dec 5 20:58:13 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Mon Dec 5 20:58:22 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <4393F4AB.4060801@ozemail.com.au> References: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> <4393F4AB.4060801@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <43940F35.3020001@ozemail.com.au> Further to this ... Following the Google News links; out of the most recent 25 stories on the search below, three can be considered "Australian" in terms of the byline: two from Sam V at the SMH, one from Adam Gosling at Smart House. Adam also had, IIRC, the first local byline associated with this story. RC rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > Not much, Brendan. I can't be bothered to source the now-73 stories > listed by Google News for > Sony rootkit location:australia > > - but the first 10 are entirely syndicated pieces, not written here. > If you then exclude the AAP/AFP/Reuters stories, you'd be left with > not much which constitutes local research. > > I find it amazing. Since Sony's most recent page-three news in > Australia was losing a court case over copy-protection; but the > rootkit was a non-event for about 10 days after the story broke, in > most outlets. > > RC > > Brendan Scott wrote: > >> Can anyone tell me whether the Sony rootkit debacle got much coverage >> in AU press? >> >> Thanks >> >> >> Brendan >> _______________________________________________ >> Link mailing list >> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link >> > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > From stephen at melbpc.org.au Tue Dec 6 00:22:39 2005 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley) Date: Tue Dec 6 00:23:01 2005 Subject: [LINK] DCITA: "The Current State of Play: Australia and the Information Economy" In-Reply-To: <7542BA003187DC43B21A8021F6B17BF30BADDBDF@edu002ms003.educa tion.vic.gov.au> Message-ID: <20051205132249.74620A0A@vscan41.melbpc.org.au> A recent Department of Communications, Information Technology and the Arts publication "The Current State of Play: Australia and the Information Economy" (November 2005) may be of interest: http://www.dcita.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/33120/Current_State_of_Play_-_November_2005.pdf -- Thanks, Paula Stephen Loosley Victoria, Australia From brd at iimetro.com.au Tue Dec 6 08:38:56 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Tue Dec 6 08:39:15 2005 Subject: [LINK] A false Wikipedia 'biography' Message-ID: <4394B370.B2FE48A9@iimetro.com.au> A false Wikipedia 'biography' By John Seigenthaler Posted 11/29/2005 7:12 PM USA Today http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2005-11-29-wikipedia-edit_x.htm "John Seigenthaler Sr. was the assistant to Attorney General Robert Kennedy in the early 1960's. For a brief time, he was thought to have been directly involved in the Kennedy assassinations of both John, and his brother, Bobby. Nothing was ever proven." ? Wikipedia This is a highly personal story about Internet character assassination. It could be your story. I have no idea whose sick mind conceived the false, malicious "biography" that appeared under my name for 132 days on Wikipedia, the popular, online, free encyclopedia whose authors are unknown and virtually untraceable. There was more: "John Seigenthaler moved to the Soviet Union in 1971, and returned to the United States in 1984," Wikipedia said. "He started one of the country's largest public relations firms shortly thereafter." At age 78, I thought I was beyond surprise or hurt at anything negative said about me. I was wrong. One sentence in the biography was true. I was Robert Kennedy's administrative assistant in the early 1960s. I also was his pallbearer. It was mind-boggling when my son, John Seigenthaler, journalist with NBC News, phoned later to say he found the same scurrilous text on Reference.com and Answers.com. I had heard for weeks from teachers, journalists and historians about "the wonderful world of Wikipedia," where millions of people worldwide visit daily for quick reference "facts," composed and posted by people with no special expertise or knowledge ? and sometimes by people with malice. At my request, executives of the three websites now have removed the false content about me. But they don't know, and can't find out, who wrote the toxic sentences. Anonymous author I phoned Jimmy Wales, Wikipedia's founder and asked, "Do you ... have any way to know who wrote that?" "No, we don't," he said. Representatives of the other two websites said their computers are programmed to copy data verbatim from Wikipedia, never checking whether it is false or factual. Naturally, I want to unmask my "biographer." And, I am interested in letting many people know that Wikipedia is a flawed and irresponsible research tool. But searching cyberspace for the identity of people who post spurious information can be frustrating. I found on Wikipedia the registered IP (Internet Protocol) number of my "biographer"- 65-81-97-208. I traced it to a customer of BellSouth Internet. That company advertises a phone number to report "Abuse Issues." An electronic voice said all complaints must be e-mailed. My two e-mails were answered by identical form letters, advising me that the company would conduct an investigation but might not tell me the results. It was signed "Abuse Team." Wales, Wikipedia's founder, told me that BellSouth would not be helpful. "We have trouble with people posting abusive things over and over and over," he said. "We block their IP numbers, and they sneak in another way. So we contact the service providers, and they are not very responsive." After three weeks, hearing nothing further about the Abuse Team investigation, I phoned BellSouth's Atlanta corporate headquarters, which led to conversations between my lawyer and BellSouth's counsel. My only remote chance of getting the name, I learned, was to file a "John or Jane Doe" lawsuit against my "biographer." Major communications Internet companies are bound by federal privacy laws that protect the identity of their customers, even those who defame online. Only if a lawsuit resulted in a court subpoena would BellSouth give up the name. Little legal recourse Federal law also protects online corporations ? BellSouth, AOL, MCI Wikipedia, etc. ? from libel lawsuits. Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, passed in 1996, specifically states that "no provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker." That legalese means that, unlike print and broadcast companies, online service providers cannot be sued for disseminating defamatory attacks on citizens posted by others. Recent low-profile court decisions document that Congress effectively has barred defamation in cyberspace. Wikipedia's website acknowledges that it is not responsible for inaccurate information, but Wales, in a recent C-Span interview with Brian Lamb, insisted that his website is accountable and that his community of thousands of volunteer editors (he said he has only one paid employee) corrects mistakes within minutes. My experience refutes that. My "biography" was posted May 26. On May 29, one of Wales' volunteers "edited" it only by correcting the misspelling of the word "early." For four months, Wikipedia depicted me as a suspected assassin before Wales erased it from his website's history Oct. 5. The falsehoods remained on Answers.com and Reference.com for three more weeks. In the C-Span interview, Wales said Wikipedia has "millions" of daily global visitors and is one of the world's busiest websites. His volunteer community runs the Wikipedia operation, he said. He funds his website through a non-profit foundation and estimated a 2006 budget of "about a million dollars." And so we live in a universe of new media with phenomenal opportunities for worldwide communications and research ? but populated by volunteer vandals with poison-pen intellects. Congress has enabled them and protects them. When I was a child, my mother lectured me on the evils of "gossip." She held a feather pillow and said, "If I tear this open, the feathers will fly to the four winds, and I could never get them back in the pillow. That's how it is when you spread mean things about people." For me, that pillow is a metaphor for Wikipedia. John Seigenthaler, a retired journalist, founded The Freedom Forum First Amendment Center at Vanderbilt University. He also is a former editorial page editor at USA TODAY. -- Newspapermen learn to call a murderer "an alleged murderer" and the King of England "the alleged King of England" to avoid libel suits. -- Stephen B. Leacock Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au Mon Dec 5 10:27:47 2005 From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington) Date: Tue Dec 6 09:18:35 2005 Subject: [LINK] Vic Gov responses to some e-democracy recommendations In-Reply-To: <20051204125956.9AA0A13FEF@vscan41.melbpc.org.au> References: <20051204125956.9AA0A13FEF@vscan41.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051205100302.01d41028@fastmail.fm> At 11:59 PM 12/4/2005, Stephen Loosley wrote: >... Government's responses to recommendations ... may seem disappointing. >http://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/sarc/E-Democracy/Response_to_eDemocracy_Report.rtf When I tried to view it as HTML (to save downloading all the RTF) all I got was a blank screen: . In my evidence to the enquiry I suggested they avoid PDF for government reports . I really meant for them to use HTML not RTF. It is a shame that the Victorian Government has put people to so much trouble to so little effect. The message seems to be: if you want an IT savvy environment, don't go to Victoria. This is a shame as there are people doing good work at Vision Australia and Multimedia Victoria . Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 http://www.tomw.net.au/ Director, ACS Communications Tech Board http://www.acs.org.au/ctb/ Visiting Fellow, ANU Blog: http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/atom.xml From cas at taz.net.au Tue Dec 6 10:18:13 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Tue Dec 6 10:18:25 2005 Subject: [LINK] A false Wikipedia 'biography' In-Reply-To: <4394B370.B2FE48A9@iimetro.com.au> References: <4394B370.B2FE48A9@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <20051205231813.GO12961@taz.net.au> On Tue, Dec 06, 2005 at 08:38:56AM +1100, Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > A false Wikipedia 'biography' > By John Seigenthaler > Posted 11/29/2005 7:12 PM > USA Today > http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2005-11-29-wikipedia-edit_x.htm > > "John Seigenthaler Sr. was the assistant to Attorney General Robert > Kennedy in the early 1960's. For a brief time, he was thought to > have been directly involved in the Kennedy assassinations of both > John, and his brother, Bobby. Nothing was ever proven." > ? Wikipedia > > This is a highly personal story about Internet character assassination. It > could be your story. in further shocking news, it has been discovered that people in pubs and other public venues can gossip about other people without having a clue what they are talking about. it is clear that the only way to prevent this heinous crime is to ban all public gatherings and require all means of communications (larynx, fingers, etc) to be surgically removed. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From lannet at lannet.com.au Tue Dec 6 11:36:42 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Tue Dec 6 11:37:03 2005 Subject: [LINK] A false Wikipedia 'biography' In-Reply-To: <20051205231813.GO12961@taz.net.au> References: <4394B370.B2FE48A9@iimetro.com.au> <20051205231813.GO12961@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <4394DD1A.5020009@lannet.com.au> Craig Sanders wrote: > On Tue, Dec 06, 2005 at 08:38:56AM +1100, Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > >>A false Wikipedia 'biography' >>By John Seigenthaler >>Posted 11/29/2005 7:12 PM >>USA Today >>http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2005-11-29-wikipedia-edit_x.htm >> >> "John Seigenthaler Sr. was the assistant to Attorney General Robert >> Kennedy in the early 1960's. For a brief time, he was thought to >> have been directly involved in the Kennedy assassinations of both >> John, and his brother, Bobby. Nothing was ever proven." >> ? Wikipedia >> >>This is a highly personal story about Internet character assassination. It >>could be your story. > > > in further shocking news, it has been discovered that people in pubs and > other public venues can gossip about other people without having a clue > what they are talking about. Ah, but there there is a better chance of them being identified and the scope for broad dissemination is reduced. In the case of Wikipedia the law is preventing identification, but allows broad dissemination. > > it is clear that the only way to prevent this heinous crime is to ban > all public gatherings and require all means of communications (larynx, > fingers, etc) to be surgically removed. > > craig > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From brd at iimetro.com.au Tue Dec 6 11:50:07 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Tue Dec 6 11:50:20 2005 Subject: [LINK] [USA] Patent sanity is pending Message-ID: <4394E03F.8BAC25AB@iimetro.com.au> Patent sanity is pending December 4, 2005 latimes.com http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/editorials/la-ed-ebay4dec04,0,6943666.story?coll=la-news-comment-editorials PATENT LAWS MAY BE AN inventor's best friend, giving someone with a groundbreaking idea the means to capitalize on it. But on many levels, the U.S. patent system is profoundly flawed. Too many patents are issued for "innovations" that are obvious, vague or already in wide use. Too many patent holders try to extend their claims to devices and services that weren't even contemplated when the patents were granted. And it's a difficult, costly exercise to overturn a questionable patent after it has been awarded. Compounding the problem, federal courts have been quick to hand patent holders a sledgehammer when their patents have been infringed. The appeals court in Washington takes the position that, except in exceptional circumstances, courts must issue permanent injunctions to stop infringers from using the inventions in dispute. As a consequence, someone who holds a patent over even a small piece of a product, service or business model could shut an entire operation down ? a nice bit of leverage when it comes to negotiating a licensing fee. As the Federal Trade Commission noted in a 2003 report, firms in some high-tech fields must obtain licenses to "dozens, hundreds or even thousands of patents" to produce just one product. Last week, the Supreme Court agreed to review the appeals court's stance. The case in question pits MercExchange, a small Virginia company that holds patents related to online commerce, against online auction giant EBay. But the issue is vital to a broad array of other technology, pharmaceutical and chemical companies. The courts may be right in this case to stop EBay from using technology patented by MercExchange, whose attempt to launch an online auction service fizzled several years ago. But judges need flexibility to provide different remedies in different situations. Patents must be enforced, but that doesn't necessarily require courts to award crippling injunctions ? particularly when the patent in dispute is just one of many involved in the product, service or business that would be shut down by an injunction. Nor is it good policy to encourage the creation of companies whose purpose is not to develop new products and services but to shake down businesses that do. Besides, the near-automatic granting of injunctions can lead to the absurd result of a company being forced to pay royalties to license patents later found to be invalid. That's the potential result in the battle between Research in Motion, the company behind the popular BlackBerry wireless e-mail devices, and patent holder NTP Inc. A federal judge may reinstate the injunction he granted against RIM for violating NTP's patents even though the Patent Office, which is reexamining the patents, has issued preliminary findings that all five are invalid. -- Lincoln said that the Patent Office adds the flame of interest to the light of creativity. And that is why we need to improve the effectiveness of our Patent Office. -- Jay Inslee Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From cas at taz.net.au Tue Dec 6 12:26:31 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Tue Dec 6 12:26:51 2005 Subject: [LINK] A false Wikipedia 'biography' In-Reply-To: <4394DD1A.5020009@lannet.com.au> References: <4394B370.B2FE48A9@iimetro.com.au> <20051205231813.GO12961@taz.net.au> <4394DD1A.5020009@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <20051206012631.GQ12961@taz.net.au> On Tue, Dec 06, 2005 at 11:36:42AM +1100, Howard Lowndes wrote: > Craig Sanders wrote: > >in further shocking news, it has been discovered that people in pubs and > >other public venues can gossip about other people without having a clue > >what they are talking about. > > Ah, but there there is a better chance of them being identified and the > scope for broad dissemination is reduced. In the case of Wikipedia the > law is preventing identification, but allows broad dissemination. so? "broad dissemination" is a subjective and relative term - i.e. meaningless. also, it doesn't change anything - if someone has been criticised (truthfully or falsely - doesn't matter), then that has been done whether 1 person read it or a million. in both cases, the reader(s) have to apply their judgement to decide whether they treat it as credible or not. preventing identification is essential - there should ALWAYS be opportunity for anonymous comment. anonymity is one of the most useful tools for safeguarding freedoms that it *should* override anyone's desire to find out who is slagging them off....because sometimes the slagging off is true and in the public interest to know, and wouldn't happen if whistle-blowers were to put themselves at risk of bankruptcy due to SLAPP lawsuits against them. what i found particularly amusing was that (according to the brief bio at the bottom of the article), the author "founded The Freedom Forum First Amendment Center at Vanderbilt University." yet spent so much time whinging about other people exercising their freedom of speech. FoS isn't just reserved for things that you agree with, or even things that are truthful or informed or insightful or knowledgeable. if you support FoS then you have to support the right of people to utter the kind of crap that you don't approve of or agree with or even that which is an outright lie. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Tue Dec 6 12:49:41 2005 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Tue Dec 6 12:49:51 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: [ausweb-l] AusWeb06 Conference Update - Issue 3 References: <6.2.3.4.0.20051206085857.02874a28@popstaff.scu.edu.au> Message-ID: Begin forwarded message: > From: Kyona Luff > Date: 6 December 2005 9:13:08 AM > To: ausweb-l@scu.edu.au > Subject: [ausweb-l] AusWeb06 Conference Update - Issue 3 > Reply-To: ausweb-l@lists.scu.edu.au > > AusWeb06 Conference Update > Volume 12, Issue 3 > ------------------------------- > IN THIS ISSUE > ------------------------------- > 1. W3C Australian Office to Participate in AusWeb06 > 2. Early Bird Registration Opening 16th December > 3. Call for Papers and Posters Reminder > > > 1. W3C Australian Office to Participate in AusWeb06 > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > We are delighted to announce that Ross Ackland has advised that the > Australian office of W3C http://www.w3c.org.au/ will be involved in > this years conference. They will be conducting a Special Interest > Group (SIG) day on the Wednesday as well as providing a keynote for > the main conference. We also hope some further members will be > submitting papers and posters. More details to be included in the > next update. > > 2. Early Bird Registration Opening 16th December > ------------------------------------------------------ > The pre and post conference workshop and tutorial program is > currently being finalised and we and we hope to announce details of > this shortly. Early Bird Registration will be available online on > 16th December so we encourage any eager delegates to use any end of > calendar year funding to register. > > 3. Call for Papers and Posters Reminder > ------------------------------------------- > Have you considered presenting a paper or poster? > Read the "Call for Papers and Posters" > Details are available at http://ausweb.scu.edu.au/aw06/papers/ > index.html > Closing dates for submissions are: 7th March (Papers) and 14th > April (Posters) > > Regards, > The AusWeb Team > > ------------------------------------------------------- > If you would like to be removed from this list: > Reply to mailto:ausweb@scu.edu.au > Subject line: UNSUBSCRIBE AUSWEB-L > > ausweb-l mailing list > ausweb-l@lists.scu.edu.au > http://lists.scu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/ausweb-l > _______________________________________________ > ausweb-l mailing list > ausweb-l@lists.scu.edu.au > http://lists.scu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/ausweb-l phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From lannet at lannet.com.au Tue Dec 6 14:31:49 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Tue Dec 6 14:32:17 2005 Subject: [LINK] 2008 Olympics could go open source Message-ID: <43950625.5070007@lannet.com.au> Here's one for TomW http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/soa/2008_Olympics_could_go_open_source/0,2000061733,39226012,00.htm The 2008 Beijing Olympic Games could switch to an open-source technology platform under proposals to be considered by the International Olympic Committee. The open-source move will be recommended by the IOC's technology partner, Atos Origin, under the guidance of subcontractors including Hewlett-Packard and IBM, according to Claude Philipps, program director at Atos Origin for the 2006 Turin Winter Olympics. "We have a plan to propose this for Beijing. It will save money on the licences," he said. After Atos presents the plans to the IOC in a formal proposal, the committee will make the final decision. But support costs could hinder the open-source switch, Philipps said. "The issue might be support because, especially in China, you don't have all the companies we have in Europe and the US." The information technology behind the Olympics is a massive operation involving some 1,200 IT team members, including 800 volunteers, who run 450 Intel-based servers and Unix boxes, 4,700 PCs and 700 printers. The inflexible deadlines and the need for security for the Olympic Games mean the technology choices are usually quite conservative. This led to wireless networks being banned for previous games but that, too, could change for Beijing in 2008. "There is no wireless in Turin (for next year's Winter Olympics) but there will be in Beijing," said Massimo Dossetto, IT security architect for the 2006 Turin games. "The technology has become mature, and we will use Cisco's network admin control." Radio frequency identification technology is also being looked at to help keep track of PCs and other IT equipment during the games, but biometrics and smart cards are not on the agenda, Dossetto said. "We would need to deploy a huge number of devices to read them, and just for one event it is not cost-effective," he said. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From jbirch at multinode.com.au Tue Dec 6 15:01:52 2005 From: jbirch at multinode.com.au (Jim Birch) Date: Tue Dec 6 15:02:03 2005 Subject: [LINK] eBay scam fools eBay Message-ID: <43950D30.8040805@multinode.com.au> ... Jennings reported the site to eBay on Nov. 25, and four days later he got a note back from the company's investigations team claiming that the e-mail message was, in fact, "an official e-mail message sent to you on behalf of e-Bay." Jennings was dumfounded. He immediately wrote back to eBay pointing out that the Web site being used was clearly fraudulent, but his e-mail went unanswered. On Monday, an eBay spokeswoman confirmed that the e-mail message was indeed part of a fraud, but she could not explain why it had initially been identified as legitimate. "I don't know the answer to that," said spokeswoman Amanda Pires. "I'm assuming right now it was just an error." From their initial response, it appeared that eBay's investigators did not take his concerns seriously, Jennings said. "They never actually used the word idiot, but I felt like they were calling me an idiot," he said. He believes that the e-mail message in question bore such a close resemblance to a legitimate eBay message that the company's investigators were simply tricked by the scam. .... http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php?id=438487658&eid=-6787 I love (not) that a slimey piece of PR-speak there, admitting an error, or perhaps not... -- Jim Birch jbirch-at-multinode*com*au t: 04 1243 1243 ----- You can fool too many of the people too much of the time - James Thurber From eric.scheid at ironclad.net.au Tue Dec 6 15:56:04 2005 From: eric.scheid at ironclad.net.au (Eric Scheid) Date: Tue Dec 6 15:56:18 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: Big remake beats clock Message-ID: > Big remake beats clock > > THE Commonwealth Bank has finished rolling out its CommSee customer > relationship management system to retail branches five months ahead of > schedule and on budget. > > http://email.news.com.au/ct/click?q=30-u8qEIRrLECxUIz78IPDdGKmQ what went wrong? e. From jbirch at multinode.com.au Tue Dec 6 15:56:51 2005 From: jbirch at multinode.com.au (Jim Birch) Date: Tue Dec 6 15:57:00 2005 Subject: [LINK] A false Wikipedia 'biography' In-Reply-To: <20051205231813.GO12961@taz.net.au> References: <4394B370.B2FE48A9@iimetro.com.au> <20051205231813.GO12961@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <43951A13.9000906@multinode.com.au> Craig Sanders wrote: >in further shocking news, it has been discovered that people in pubs and >other public venues can gossip about other people without having a clue >what they are talking about. > > And I've just received an email job offer from a Mr John Nash of the Ukrainian National Animal Welfare Foundation (UANAWF) . All I have to do is receive donor moneys direct to my bank account, take a cut and pass the rest along to to these animal lovers in the Ukraine. Look, I could be way out here, but my bet is these guys would buy a bone for a staving dog. You have to feel a bit sorry for this guy who has been defamed, but, between you and me, I reckon the Internet is awash with crap. Elsewhere, I see that "As a result of the incident, Wikipedia no longer accepts new submissions from anonymous contributors" http://www.itnews.com.au/newsstory.aspx?CIaNID=21324&eid=1&edate=20051206 OTOH, wouldn't the real story of who did what and why in this case be interesting reading? Where's Hunter S Thompson when you need him! I wonder if there's some extreme right hate outfit somewhere with a check list of Democrat elders they are working through. Or, maybe it's a just personal thing from someone who was inadvertently snubbed at a Washington cocktail party in 1976 and, despite therapy, hasn't been able to forget it. -- Jim Birch jbirch-at-multinode*com*au t: 04 1243 1243 ----- Truth is more of a stranger than fiction. --Mark Twain From mail at ozzmosis.com Tue Dec 6 16:10:57 2005 From: mail at ozzmosis.com (andrew clarke) Date: Tue Dec 6 16:11:16 2005 Subject: [LINK] A false Wikipedia 'biography' In-Reply-To: <4394B370.B2FE48A9@iimetro.com.au> References: <4394B370.B2FE48A9@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <20051206051057.GA313@ozzmosis.com> On Tue, Dec 06, 2005 at 08:38:56AM +1100, Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > A false Wikipedia 'biography' > By John Seigenthaler > Posted 11/29/2005 7:12 PM ... > At age 78, I thought I was beyond surprise or hurt at anything negative said > about me. I was wrong. One sentence in the biography was true. I was Robert What puzzles me a bit is he himself could've corrected his own biography - anonymously if he wished. Instead he made a big fuss about it and now due to all the publicity the article is currently locked: "This page has recently been featured in a major source outside of Wikipedia. As a result, it is experiencing higher than normal traffic, and has become the target of vandalism. It has consequently been protected from editing." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Seigenthaler_Sr. Regards Andrew From mail at ozzmosis.com Tue Dec 6 16:15:36 2005 From: mail at ozzmosis.com (andrew clarke) Date: Tue Dec 6 16:15:48 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> References: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20051206051536.GB313@ozzmosis.com> On Mon, Dec 05, 2005 at 06:04:51PM +1100, Brendan Scott wrote: > Can anyone tell me whether the Sony rootkit debacle got much coverage in AU > press? The story was mentioned (and a attempt made to explain what the rootkit did) by Shaun Micallef on his breakfast show on VEGA FM in Melbourne a few weeks ago. Unfortunately the station is only a few months old and so probably doesn't have much of a large audience, but I thought it was interesting, particularly since they regularly play Sony/BMG's music. Regards Andrew From KerryA.Webb at act.gov.au Tue Dec 6 16:29:47 2005 From: KerryA.Webb at act.gov.au (Webb, KerryA) Date: Tue Dec 6 16:30:00 2005 Subject: [LINK] A false Wikipedia 'biography' Message-ID: <6728FC12ECED9547862D3B4261FBCE0002CA969D@cal067.act.gov.au> -Andrew Clarke wrote: > > What puzzles me a bit is he himself could've corrected his > own biography > - anonymously if he wished. Instead he made a big fuss about > it and now > due to all the publicity the article is currently locked: > I can't see why it's a bad thing that it's locked. Given that there's someone out there just itching to return it to its previous state. Kerry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If you are not the intended recipient: Please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au Tue Dec 6 16:43:01 2005 From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee) Date: Tue Dec 6 16:43:08 2005 Subject: [LINK] A false Wikipedia 'biography' In-Reply-To: <43951A13.9000906@multinode.com.au> References: <4394B370.B2FE48A9@iimetro.com.au> <20051205231813.GO12961@taz.net.au> <43951A13.9000906@multinode.com.au> Message-ID: <20051206054301.GB20856@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> > Elsewhere, I see that "As a result of the incident, Wikipedia no longer > accepts new submissions from anonymous contributors" > > http://www.itnews.com.au/newsstory.aspx?CIaNID=21324&eid=1&edate=20051206 That's just wrong. I'm still reverting anonymous vandalism to the few Wikipedia pages I monitor. Danny. From lannet at lannet.com.au Tue Dec 6 17:25:08 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Tue Dec 6 17:25:27 2005 Subject: [LINK] A false Wikipedia 'biography' In-Reply-To: <43951A13.9000906@multinode.com.au> References: <4394B370.B2FE48A9@iimetro.com.au> <20051205231813.GO12961@taz.net.au> <43951A13.9000906@multinode.com.au> Message-ID: <43952EC4.7060605@lannet.com.au> Jim Birch wrote: > Craig Sanders wrote: > >> in further shocking news, it has been discovered that people in pubs and >> other public venues can gossip about other people without having a clue >> what they are talking about. >> >> > And I've just received an email job offer from a Mr John Nash of the > Ukrainian National Animal Welfare Foundation (UANAWF) . All I have to > do is receive donor moneys direct to my bank account, take a cut and > pass the rest along to to these animal lovers in the Ukraine. Look, I > could be way out here, but my bet is these guys would buy a bone for a > staving dog. Damn it, that makes two of us :) > > You have to feel a bit sorry for this guy who has been defamed, but, > between you and me, I reckon the Internet is awash with crap. > > Elsewhere, I see that "As a result of the incident, Wikipedia no longer > accepts new submissions from anonymous contributors" > > http://www.itnews.com.au/newsstory.aspx?CIaNID=21324&eid=1&edate=20051206 > > OTOH, wouldn't the real story of who did what and why in this case be > interesting reading? Where's Hunter S Thompson when you need him! I > wonder if there's some extreme right hate outfit somewhere with a check > list of Democrat elders they are working through. Or, maybe it's a just > personal thing from someone who was inadvertently snubbed at a > Washington cocktail party in 1976 and, despite therapy, hasn't been able > to forget it. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From lannet at lannet.com.au Tue Dec 6 17:27:46 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Tue Dec 6 17:28:02 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <20051206051536.GB313@ozzmosis.com> References: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> <20051206051536.GB313@ozzmosis.com> Message-ID: <43952F62.2000805@lannet.com.au> andrew clarke wrote: > On Mon, Dec 05, 2005 at 06:04:51PM +1100, Brendan Scott wrote: > > >>Can anyone tell me whether the Sony rootkit debacle got much coverage in AU >>press? > > > The story was mentioned (and a attempt made to explain what the rootkit > did) by Shaun Micallef on his breakfast show on VEGA FM in Melbourne a > few weeks ago. Unfortunately the station is only a few months old and > so probably doesn't have much of a large audience, but I thought it was > interesting, particularly since they regularly play Sony/BMG's music. Unfortunately when ever you mention something to most people about something that will violate their computer, their eyes glaze over and they go deafly into denial mode. > > Regards > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Tue Dec 6 17:33:15 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Tue Dec 6 17:33:22 2005 Subject: [LINK] A false Wikipedia 'biography' In-Reply-To: <20051205231813.GO12961@taz.net.au> References: <4394B370.B2FE48A9@iimetro.com.au> <20051205231813.GO12961@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <439530AB.7050006@ozemail.com.au> Craig Sanders wrote: >On Tue, Dec 06, 2005 at 08:38:56AM +1100, Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > > >>A false Wikipedia 'biography' >>By John Seigenthaler >>Posted 11/29/2005 7:12 PM >>USA Today >>http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2005-11-29-wikipedia-edit_x.htm >> >> "John Seigenthaler Sr. was the assistant to Attorney General Robert >> Kennedy in the early 1960's. For a brief time, he was thought to >> have been directly involved in the Kennedy assassinations of both >> John, and his brother, Bobby. Nothing was ever proven." >> ? Wikipedia >> >>This is a highly personal story about Internet character assassination. It >>could be your story. >> >> > >in further shocking news, it has been discovered that people in pubs and >other public venues can gossip about other people without having a clue >what they are talking about. > >it is clear that the only way to prevent this heinous crime is to ban >all public gatherings and require all means of communications (larynx, >fingers, etc) to be surgically removed. > > Differences. 1) The guy in the pub doesn's say "I am an encyclopedia". Wikipedia does, on the entry page. All the caveats are somewhere else on the site. 2) Wikipedia rides a spurious goodwill - "This is good because it's a radical new model" - that nobody would give the pub gossip. 3) The (say) Hero of Waterloo doesn't lend its brand as an endorsement of the gossip at the bar. Nor is its name the "entry point" for the information. Its self-description as an encyclopedia* (* with hidden disclaimers) means that Wikipedia positions itself both as an endorsement* (* subject to caveats if you follow this link) and the fact that it centralises search to the URL means Wikipedia is perceived both as offering endorsement and as the aggregator for the stuff inside. It may be that people want to give Wikipedia a wide latitude for mistakes and malice. Fine; but there is no moral imperative that I, having decided that it's not trustworthy, should accept the judgement of others. And the same goes for John Seigenthaler Jr: having been defamed, he has a legitimate complaint and a right to express it. Richard Chirgwin >craig > > > From cas at taz.net.au Tue Dec 6 23:26:16 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Tue Dec 6 23:26:44 2005 Subject: [LINK] A false Wikipedia 'biography' In-Reply-To: <439530AB.7050006@ozemail.com.au> References: <4394B370.B2FE48A9@iimetro.com.au> <20051205231813.GO12961@taz.net.au> <439530AB.7050006@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <20051206122616.GR12961@taz.net.au> On Tue, Dec 06, 2005 at 05:33:15PM +1100, rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > >in further shocking news, it has been discovered that people in pubs and > >other public venues can gossip about other people without having a clue > >what they are talking about. > > > Differences. > 1) The guy in the pub doesn's say "I am an encyclopedia". Wikipedia > does, on the entry page. wikipedia is not the one making the claim, wikipedia is the pub. > All the caveats are somewhere else on the site. all the caveats and disclaimers in a print encylopedia are in an appendix (or possibly an introduction). just like wikipedia, they aren't embedded in every article - they're "hidden" somewhere else to recycle your prejudicial language. > 2) Wikipedia rides a spurious goodwill - "This is good because it's a > radical new model" - that nobody would give the pub gossip. like anything on the net (or off it), wikipedia articles are to be taken with a grain of salt. anyone who doesn't know that is an idiot, and probably also believes the shit they see on TV news without filtering it with any critical thinking. > 3) The (say) Hero of Waterloo doesn't lend its brand as an endorsement > of the gossip at the bar. Nor is its name the "entry point" for the > information. Its self-description as an encyclopedia* (* with hidden it's an encylopedia, just like any other. what's that? you say it's biased? well, so are print encylopedia. huh? it has articles that are false or misleading or just plain bullshit? well, so do print enyclopedia. anyone can create and account and correct those false or misleading articles? of course, that's part of the point of wikipedia...and no, that ISN'T feature of proprietary print encyclopedia. > disclaimers) means that Wikipedia positions itself both as an > endorsement* (* subject to caveats if you follow this link) and > the fact that it centralises search to the URL means Wikipedia is > perceived both as offering endorsement and as the aggregator for the > stuff inside. so now the street directory is at fault too, for providing directions to the pub where malicious gossip can be heard? read wikipedia's own comments about itself. it explicitly disclaims being any kind of authoritative source of information on any subject. it informs all users about it's nature, that it is a collaborative effort, and that anyone may create or edit an article - regardless of whether they are an expert or informed or not. > It may be that people want to give Wikipedia a wide latitude for > mistakes and malice. Fine; i don't want to give wikipedia any more latitude than i'd give anyone/anything else. the guy was an anti-free-speech whinger...and a hypocrite about it, too. free-speech is only acceptable if it's not something he disapproves of. well, tough. it doesn't work that way. speech is either free or it's not free. it can not be "free if i like it". > but there is no moral imperative that I, having decided that it's not > trustworthy, should accept the judgement of others. fine, no-one's saying you have to trust wikipedia. that's your choice, and completely irrelevant to the argument here. > And the same goes for John Seigenthaler Jr: having been defamed, > he has a legitimate complaint and a right to express it. sure he has a right to express his complaint, but he goes way too far...he wants to use his free speech to suppress someone else's? that's not legitimate. he wants to invade someone's right to privacy and anonymity so he can sue them for saying stuff he doesn't like. loser. he should quit his whinging and just accept the fact that people will think and say things he doesn't like. if he cares that much what people who read wikipedia think about him, he can exercise the ability of anyone with net access to create or amend any article on wikipedia. fight words with words, not gutless scumbag lawsuits to oppress free speech. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From mail at ozzmosis.com Wed Dec 7 00:51:47 2005 From: mail at ozzmosis.com (andrew clarke) Date: Wed Dec 7 00:52:01 2005 Subject: [LINK] A false Wikipedia 'biography' In-Reply-To: <6728FC12ECED9547862D3B4261FBCE0002CA969D@cal067.act.gov.au> References: <6728FC12ECED9547862D3B4261FBCE0002CA969D@cal067.act.gov.au> Message-ID: <20051206135147.GA13177@ozzmosis.com> On Tue, Dec 06, 2005 at 04:29:47PM +1100, Webb, KerryA wrote: > > What puzzles me a bit is he himself could've corrected his own > > biography - anonymously if he wished. Instead he made a big fuss about > > it and now due to all the publicity the article is currently locked: > > I can't see why it's a bad thing that it's locked. Given that there's > someone out there just itching to return it to its previous state. Well, it would be a bad thing if it were locked in a state where some/all of the presented information was entirely fictional. (Not knowing anything about him I can't say whether this has actually occurred.) Regards Andrew From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Wed Dec 7 08:18:17 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Wed Dec 7 08:18:24 2005 Subject: [LINK] A false Wikipedia 'biography' In-Reply-To: <20051206122616.GR12961@taz.net.au> References: <4394B370.B2FE48A9@iimetro.com.au> <20051205231813.GO12961@taz.net.au> <439530AB.7050006@ozemail.com.au> <20051206122616.GR12961@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <43960019.1080106@ozemail.com.au> Craig, this becomes too deeply commented if I try and point-by-point the dicussion, so excuse the top-posting. Wikipedia most certainly does describe itself as an encyclopedia - in ten languages on the front page. While "returning to the original source" is a good basic principle, many or most disciplines are too "distant": primary sources frequently need interpretation. That requirement is not evidence of stupidity; for example, if I want to know something about the Crusades, it's hardly likely that I know the 12th century languages in which the events are recorded. So the desire for an accessible authoritative source is not due to someone being slack or stupid. The only way any person could reasonably confine themselves to "prime sources only" is if they restrict their interests to that very small range of topics which they themselves can research, analyse, and interpret with some accuracy. As to Wikipedia? It's problem is that nobody wants responsibility. It is, as The Register described it today, a huge role-playing game. Some people take the game seriously, but they seem almost foolish for doing so, because there are so many "sock puppets" and graffitists whose intention is to destroy. This one belief about Wikipedia does warrant analysis: >if he cares that much what people who read wikipedia think about him, he >can exercise the ability of anyone with net access to create or amend >any article on wikipedia. fight words with words, not gutless scumbag >lawsuits to oppress free speech. > A right which cannot effectively be exercised doesn't really exist. RC >craig > > > From brd at iimetro.com.au Wed Dec 7 08:33:21 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (brd@iimetro.com.au) Date: Wed Dec 7 08:33:30 2005 Subject: [LINK] Veterans Affairs keeps options open on systems Message-ID: <20051207053321.q5902nni1i8g0kgo@webmail.iimetro.com.au> Veterans Affairs keeps options open on systems Ben Woodhead 7 December 2005 Australian Financial Review Subscription only, no URL The Department of Veterans Affairs will consider dumping the Linux open source operating system from its mainframe computers as part of the retendering of its $32 million a year outsourcing contract with IBM. A decision to move away from Linux would be a blow for the upstart operating system as DVA was one of the first Australian organisations to adopt the technology for mainframes. However, it could give the agency freedom to choose from more suppliers when it evaluates bids for outsourced services next year. DVA must make a decision on its new outsourcing contract by February 2007 and the agency's director of IT contract management, Michael Welfare, said it would consider all options including abandoning Linux. "We're not necessarily mandating that Linux be the solution," Mr Welfare said. "We would ask for a business-as-usual type response to our tender, but we're not mandating that Linux on the mainframe be part of the solution. "It's not because we're dissatisfied with the current arrangements. It's a technology platform that could be changed without disruption of services." DVA made the switch to Linux two years ago with heavy support from IBM, which is a major backer of the operating system. The move was a breakthrough for the technology, as it had been relegated to internet servers in Australia. However, an executive who has since left DVA said last year that the shift to Linux could limit the agency's choices when its current outsourcing contract with IBM expired, because many suppliers were still building skills to support the software on mainframes. The Australian Financial Review reported yesterday that the DVA would issue a tender for its mainframe, mid-range and desktop computer services early next year. Multinational outsourcers IBM, Electronic Data Systems and Computer Sciences Corporations are all expected to bid for the contract, as well as a number of Australian players. But in a move that will disappoint some firms, Veterans Affairs will pursue a single supplier that has the potential to put many smaller companies out of the running. DVA is one of several federal agencies that will retender longstanding outsourcing arrangements in the coming months, but it is the only one that would pursue a single, big bang agreement. The Australian Taxation Office, Australian Customs Service and Department of Immigration, Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs have all said they will carve up their technology services requirements into multiple contracts. -- Over the weekend I exchanged email with a Unix guy who chastised me for being "insular" and proposed to tell me how to speak to Unix people with proper humility. Well, I only pray to one God in relation to computers, and His name is Murphy. -- Dave Winer Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using iiMetro WebMail From brd at iimetro.com.au Wed Dec 7 08:54:40 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (brd@iimetro.com.au) Date: Wed Dec 7 08:54:51 2005 Subject: [LINK] Cargo overload Message-ID: <20051207055440.jgcy35x47fso840c@webmail.iimetro.com.au> Cargo overload Simon Hayes December 06, 2005 The Australian http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,17445643%5E16681%5E%5Enbv%5E,00.html Confidence was in surplus at the Australian Customs Service when the Integrated Cargo System was launched back in early October. So buoyant were the project's backers that when asked if the broking and forwarding industry's predictions of the system falling over were correct, a spokesman declared "there's nothing to indicate the system won't be able to cope with anything thrown at it". Amazingly, the agency has failed to eat more than a couple of crumbs of humble pie since that disastrous day. In the few weeks, as cargo piled up at airports and docks around Australia, Customs maintained its system was not causing the problems. Aside from a brief admission from a senior Customs officer that all was not well: "things we tested, which worked well, in reality didn't work well", the agency has stuck with its initial strategy of blaming users for inputting incorrect information. Customs admits a secret internal report warned that its mainframe capacity was insufficient to run the new software, but maintains it scheduled a post-launch increase to handle the demand. While internal emails and sources have said the system was losing messages, the agency has denied this. Customs Minister Chris Ellison told Parliament last week the majority of users were now on the new system. "We now have in excess of 99 per cent of users on the new system, and there are only a handful that are relying on the old system," he says. "The new industry action group we have set up is working very well. "I might remind the Senate that this is a very big project indeed - one of the largest programs in the southern hemisphere. The US is doing the same thing and it is taking them 10 years and costing $3.2 billion." The mega-project nature of the ICS is unusual in a climate where big technology rollouts are generally split into smaller pieces of work, spread out over time. Just as outsourcing contracts have been broken up, so project work has become more programmatic, experts say. "The old days where you'd take three to four years to deliver something are gone," says Accenture managing director Douglas Snedden. "Now you have to deliver something every quarter. People have moved to doing more programmatic stuff." Lost messages and inadequate capacity aside, analysts say the biggest problem was the size and complexity of the project. In demanding far more data than the legacy Compile system had, the ICS asked too much of importers and freight forwarders. All in all, the gurus say, the ICS has joined Westpac's CS90 project, Sydney Water's Customer Information and Billing System and RMIT's PeopleSoft deployment as object lessons in how not to run a large project. Problem number one, according to sources, was that Customs was not heeding industry advice on system design. "I reckon it starts back when EDS started as outsourcer and Customs staff were pushed over," says a person familiar with the ICS project. "Those people left with an enormous amount of knowledge. From then on it was hard for industry to convince Customs of what was needed. Customs had a strong view, and they wanted to convince industry it was wrong." Problem number two was that Customs was under political pressure to move to the new system, and was approaching a deadline to shift from its old Unisys mainframe. With the project already two years overdue and massively over the original budget estimate, delaying further was not an option. "Customs had to take it live, but it was not finished, it was not debugged and it was not correct," the source says. That is a point disputed by the minister's office. A spokesman says the upcoming Christmas break left no other period in which to introduce the system. The biggest problem was the amount of detail the new system required. Dots, dashes and spaces all had to be in the same place, causing big problems for the industry. "It wasn't a problem with software, although there were lots of problems with that and with project management," the source says. "The fundamental design flaw was that they asked for very explicit details. "The industry doesn't do well with that because many of these documents are created in countries where people don't speak English." Customs disputes the criticisms, saying it did consult widely with the industry in the lead-up to the rollout. A Customs spokeswoman argues that the complex system was necessary. "Given the current security environment it was vital that Australia move to an integrated system providing enhanced security for border protection and the supply chain," she says. "The required level of data accuracy is a key aspect of the system that will ensure Australia's borders and community are better protected, while also enhancing revenue protection." For importers and exporters, the ICS has been an unmitigated disaster. A spokesman for the Customs Brokers and Fowarders Council of Australia says the project simply got out of hand. "Far from being a controlled rollout, the broker-forwarder community and Customs were completely unprepared following the introduction of the ICS, and no-one could believe the level of delays and system failures," he says. "For three days the Customs system was unusable. It was a full-scale disaster. The ports filled to capacity and relief arrived only due to ICS systems bypasses, wet-stamping and the forced introduction of manual over-rides and human intervention from both Customs and the industry. "Persistent public denial by Customs that the ICS had significant problems and shortcoming undermines the enormous effort contributed by the many professional industry representatives who are providing their time to assist Customs in working thorough many of these system failures and shortcomings." Mark Toomey, project management consultant for Infonomics, tracked the project and identified warnings signs. Despite the importance of deadlines, urgency can be the enemy of a large, complex project, he says. "It's like the school bus that has to leave at 9:15 and leaves whether you're ready or not. You can't do a multi-stakeholder project like that," he says. Technology organisations can fall into the trap of dictating to stakeholders how and when they should use the new system, Toomey says. Also, they can become blinded by the technology and not take enough time to understand the business of the customers and third parties using the new system. "They say they made a commitment to reach a technological outcome, and they have delivered that technological outcome," he says, "Now they deny responsibility for what happened." He agrees the data demands of the Customs system are too rigorous for the industry in which it was operating. "They may have delivered a competent technological system, but they didn't do the work in developing a competent business system," he says. "They were trying to make the process more rigorous, requiring data from people that they have not required before." Speaking of large technology organisations generally, Toomey says staff turnover can rob tech departments of the skills they need, particularly when dealing with legacy replacement projects. The "Jim's scenario", in which pensioned-off middle-managers spend their redundancy money on franchises such as Jim's Mowing rounds, can also affect companies' understanding of legacy systems and how the business works. "There's a gap in knowledge that hasn't been covered with documentation," he says. "It's a common problem when organisations outsource. They lose people with initimate knowledge of how they operate." Toomey says Customs needs to go back to the drawing board and re-evaluate every aspect of the ICS in conjunction with the system's industry users. "This failure does not necessarily mean that the ICS should be abandoned," he says. "Nor at this stage should the money spent be considered wasted." -- None so deaf as those that will not hear. None so blind as those that will not see. -- Mathew Henry Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using iiMetro WebMail From kauer at biplane.com.au Wed Dec 7 09:02:05 2005 From: kauer at biplane.com.au (Karl Auer) Date: Wed Dec 7 09:02:55 2005 Subject: [LINK] Veterans Affairs keeps options open on systems In-Reply-To: <20051207053321.q5902nni1i8g0kgo@webmail.iimetro.com.au> References: <20051207053321.q5902nni1i8g0kgo@webmail.iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <20051207090205.20621102.kauer@biplane.com.au> > Veterans Affairs keeps options open on systems The headline is good. > The Department of Veterans Affairs will consider dumping the Linux open source > operating system from its mainframe computers as part of the retendering of its > $32 million a year outsourcing contract with IBM. This first paragraph, on the other hand, is completely unwarranted. DVA is not mandating Linux - that's a far cry from "dumping" it. If a Linux-based solution is the best one, they'll still take it, assuming one can take the quotes in the article at face value. DVA is keeping its options open, as the headline says and as they should. Regards, K. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au) +61-2-64957160 (w/h) http://www.biplane.com.au/~kauer/ +61-428-957160 (mob) From lannet at lannet.com.au Wed Dec 7 09:02:32 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Wed Dec 7 09:02:59 2005 Subject: [LINK] Veterans Affairs keeps options open on systems In-Reply-To: <20051207053321.q5902nni1i8g0kgo@webmail.iimetro.com.au> References: <20051207053321.q5902nni1i8g0kgo@webmail.iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <43960A78.9060102@lannet.com.au> brd@iimetro.com.au wrote: > Veterans Affairs keeps options open on systems > Ben Woodhead > 7 December 2005 > Australian Financial Review > Subscription only, no URL > > The Department of Veterans Affairs will consider dumping the Linux open source > operating system from its mainframe computers as part of the retendering of its > $32 million a year outsourcing contract with IBM. [...snip...] > DVA is one of several federal agencies that will retender longstanding > outsourcing arrangements in the coming months, but it is the only one that > would pursue a single, big bang agreement. > > The Australian Taxation Office, Australian Customs Service and Department of > Immigration, Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs have all said they will carve > up their technology services requirements into multiple contracts. Given recent experiences with ATO, ACS and DIMIA, if I was a Vet dependent upon my fornightly pension cheque, I might start worrying. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Wed Dec 7 09:18:57 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Wed Dec 7 09:19:11 2005 Subject: [LINK] talk about large files.... Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20051207091651.0215c358@popa.melbpc.org.au> Linkers, I just heard this morning about the fare increases for public transport in Melbourne starting 1 January. But of course there is no info about that on the Metlink website. But I did find their ticketing manual: http://www.metlinkmelbourne.com.au/fares_zones/victorian_fares_ticketing_manual.php all 7.4mb. But if you want to download each chapter individually: 50+mb! Go figure! Jan JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From lannet at lannet.com.au Wed Dec 7 10:03:48 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Wed Dec 7 10:04:08 2005 Subject: [LINK] talk about large files.... In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20051207091651.0215c358@popa.melbpc.org.au> References: <6.0.3.0.0.20051207091651.0215c358@popa.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <439618D4.7070809@lannet.com.au> Yes, they appear to have gone balls out with the graphics; their cover page is 3.1Mb just on its own - ridiculous. Jan Whitaker wrote: > Linkers, > I just heard this morning about the fare increases for public transport > in Melbourne starting 1 January. But of course there is no info about > that on the Metlink website. But I did find their ticketing manual: > http://www.metlinkmelbourne.com.au/fares_zones/victorian_fares_ticketing_manual.php > > all 7.4mb. But if you want to download each chapter individually: > 50+mb! Go figure! > > Jan > > > JLWhitaker Associates > Melbourne, Victoria, Australia > jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm > > 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there > is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 > _ __________________ _ > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Wed Dec 7 09:15:06 2005 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Wed Dec 7 10:17:59 2005 Subject: [LINK] A false Wikipedia 'biography' In-Reply-To: <4394B370.B2FE48A9@iimetro.com.au> References: <4394B370.B2FE48A9@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: Two things surprise me: - Wikipedia isn't looking to sustain versions of contentious pages. If it did that, then 'clarifications', 'denials', 'corrections', additional references, etc. would be available - Seigenthaler chose USA Today to publish his (apparently quite \ justifiable) lament, rather than, say, the NYT or LATimes >A false Wikipedia 'biography' >By John Seigenthaler >Posted 11/29/2005 7:12 PM >USA Today >http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2005-11-29-wikipedia-edit_x.htm -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From cas at taz.net.au Wed Dec 7 11:16:18 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Wed Dec 7 11:16:40 2005 Subject: [LINK] A false Wikipedia 'biography' In-Reply-To: <43960019.1080106@ozemail.com.au> References: <4394B370.B2FE48A9@iimetro.com.au> <20051205231813.GO12961@taz.net.au> <439530AB.7050006@ozemail.com.au> <20051206122616.GR12961@taz.net.au> <43960019.1080106@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <20051207001618.GS12961@taz.net.au> On Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 08:18:17AM +1100, rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > Wikipedia most certainly does describe itself as an encyclopedia - in > ten languages on the front page. i never said it didn't. try addressing what i said, not some imaginary straw-man. > While "returning to the original source" is a good basic principle, many > or most disciplines are too "distant": primary sources frequently need > interpretation. That requirement is not evidence of stupidity; for > example, if I want to know something about the Crusades, it's hardly > likely that I know the 12th century languages in which the events are > recorded. > > So the desire for an accessible authoritative source is not due to > someone being slack or stupid. The only way any person could reasonably > confine themselves to "prime sources only" is if they restrict their > interests to that very small range of topics which they themselves can > research, analyse, and interpret with some accuracy. the desire may not be, but the expectation that you'll ever get it is. there is no such thing as an unbiased source of information on any subject. the best you can ever get is to read multiple (perhaps conflicting) sources and try to identify the motivations and biases of the writers. fortunately, that is one of the strengths of the net - it makes it possible for multiple viewpoints and data sets to be published with roughly equal accessibility, instead of just the (mostly) right-wing viewpoint and data approved of by the owners of mainstream media and their carefully selected editors. and yes, a lot of what you can read on the net is bullshit. big deal - the same is true of newspapers. the net is just highlighting the fact that all writing is inherently biased, that every author has their own (or their employer's) point-of-view that they are pushing. it's just that most people didn't realise that before because they NEVER encountered any alternative view-points, so it was easy to be fooled into believing that the minor variations on the single permitted viewpoint expressed in mainstream press was "The Truth". it's a Good Thing that people are learning to distrust whatever's printed, and realise that they have to apply their judgement to whatever they read. > As to Wikipedia? It's problem is that nobody wants responsibility. It > is, as The Register described it today, a huge role-playing game. Some > people take the game seriously, but they seem almost foolish for doing > so, because there are so many "sock puppets" and graffitists whose > intention is to destroy. in my experience the percentage of completely crap articles is very low - the only ones i've ever noticed are those that someone makes a huge fuss about so that it makes it some news site like slashdot. and in all cases, they're about particular individuals - either being slagged off by someone who doesn't like them, or where wikipedia is being exploited by a nutcase to promote themselves and their kook ideas. a handful of not-very-important articles compared to the tens of thousands with useful information in them. the science articles are of particularly good quality. i can guess why you don't like wikipedia and anything else blog-like, but you've just got to resign yourself to the fact that the days of print newspapers holding a near monopoly on information flow are numbered. paid journalists are losing their high-priest status. deal with it. > This one belief about Wikipedia does warrant analysis: > > > if he cares that much what people who read wikipedia think about > > him, he can exercise the ability of anyone with net access to create > > or amend any article on wikipedia. fight words with words, not > > gutless scumbag lawsuits to oppress free speech. > > A right which cannot effectively be exercised doesn't really exist. how about backing up your bald assertion with some evidence or at least reasoning - why can't it be effectively exercised? anyone can create an account at wikipedia, anyone can create or amend an article. all you need is internet access. that's more than you can say for any print encyclopedia (or newspaper or magazine for that matter). (and i didn't call it a right, i called it an ability - deliberately so. an account can be disabled for abusing the priviledge). craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From cas at taz.net.au Wed Dec 7 11:24:53 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Wed Dec 7 11:25:12 2005 Subject: [LINK] A false Wikipedia 'biography' In-Reply-To: References: <4394B370.B2FE48A9@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <20051207002453.GT12961@taz.net.au> On Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 09:15:06AM +1100, Roger Clarke wrote: > > Two things surprise me: > - Wikipedia isn't looking to sustain versions of contentious pages. huh? all changes to wikipedia articles are logged into a Revision Control System - it's possible to see not only any previous version of a page, but also the differences between any two versions, with any changes highlighted. check out the "History" tab at the top of every article. Every article also has a "Discussion" tab where you can read any "behind-the-scenes" discussions by any contributors to the article. sometimes these get quite heated as people argue about what should and shouldn't be in the article. > If it did that, then 'clarifications', 'denials', 'corrections', > additional references, etc. would be available they are. it's one of the most useful features of wikipedia, at least when you're reading a contentious article. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Wed Dec 7 11:27:02 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Wed Dec 7 11:27:11 2005 Subject: [LINK] A false Wikipedia 'biography' In-Reply-To: References: <4394B370.B2FE48A9@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <20051207082702.gwwu9xv01we8w888@mymail.com.au> > > Two things surprise me: > - Wikipedia isn't looking to sustain versions of contentious pages. > If it did that, then 'clarifications', 'denials', 'corrections', > additional references, etc. would be available No idea. Would it help, however, to have something spiral down into a kind of "death of a million revisions"? > - Seigenthaler chose USA Today to publish his (apparently quite \ > justifiable) lament, rather than, say, the NYT or LATimes That's easy: he stayed with his familiar association; he was a former op-ed editor of USA Today, so that's where he sent his own op-ed. RC > > >> A false Wikipedia 'biography' >> By John Seigenthaler >> Posted 11/29/2005 7:12 PM >> USA Today >> http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2005-11-29-wikipedia-edit_x.htm > > -- > Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ > > Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA > Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 > mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ > > Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University > Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong > Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using MyMail From cas at taz.net.au Wed Dec 7 11:50:42 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Wed Dec 7 11:50:54 2005 Subject: [LINK] A false Wikipedia 'biography' In-Reply-To: <20051207001618.GS12961@taz.net.au> References: <4394B370.B2FE48A9@iimetro.com.au> <20051205231813.GO12961@taz.net.au> <439530AB.7050006@ozemail.com.au> <20051206122616.GR12961@taz.net.au> <43960019.1080106@ozemail.com.au> <20051207001618.GS12961@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <20051207005042.GU12961@taz.net.au> On Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 11:16:18AM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote: > in my experience the percentage of completely crap articles is very low > - the only ones i've ever noticed are those that someone makes a huge > fuss about so that it makes it some news site like slashdot. and in all > cases, they're about particular individuals - [...] sorry, i meant to say "almost all cases" there. most of the other cases are those which are inherently subjective or where a later movement tries to co-opt an existing term for itself - e.g. whether anarchism is ultimately a collectivist/co-operative philosophy as in anarchosyndicalism or whether it is dog-eat-dog ultra-capitalism as in American Libertarianism. in some cases, the arguments and edit wars on wikipedia between competing "factions" can be just as interesting reading as the article itself. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au Wed Dec 7 12:58:27 2005 From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee) Date: Wed Dec 7 12:58:37 2005 Subject: [LINK] A false Wikipedia 'biography' In-Reply-To: <20051207001618.GS12961@taz.net.au> References: <4394B370.B2FE48A9@iimetro.com.au> <20051205231813.GO12961@taz.net.au> <439530AB.7050006@ozemail.com.au> <20051206122616.GR12961@taz.net.au> <43960019.1080106@ozemail.com.au> <20051207001618.GS12961@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <20051207015827.GA32001@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> Craig Sanders wrote: > in my experience the percentage of completely crap articles is very low There are few *completely* crap articles, but speaking as an editor who's up to 500 edits and monitors nearly 100 pages, there are a lot of articles which are poorly written, idiosyncratic in content or style, or scattered, or which omit important information or over-emphasize tangential information. Overall, Wikipedia is a very mixed success. But some individual articles are excellent and many are useful. Deciding whether to trust a Wikipedia article is exactly like deciding whether to trust some other web page -- with the added difficulty that it can't be cited as changes are too frequent. A more common problem than defamation seems to be people editing articles about themselves to remove criticisms. Danny. ---------------------------------------------------------- http://dannyreviews.com/ - over eight hundred book reviews http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog ---------------------------------------------------------- From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Wed Dec 7 15:47:43 2005 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Wed Dec 7 15:48:11 2005 Subject: [LINK] A false Wikipedia 'biography' In-Reply-To: <20051207002453.GT12961@taz.net.au> References: <4394B370.B2FE48A9@iimetro.com.au> <20051207002453.GT12961@taz.net.au> Message-ID: Craig Sanders : > [sorted out Roger's misapprehensions about Wikipedia versioning] Thanks Craig! Apologies for burning up your time and others'. (I've never made time to do my homework on the business processes behind Wikipedia, and can't get to it right now). I'd inferred from Seigenthaler's complaint that the history of the disputation wasn't traceable. It appears that: (a) it would have been, if he or someone else had chosen to edit the page (b) the train is rich, but syntactic, rather than semantic (semiotic for 'you have to dig deep and follow through the versions to interpolate what went on'). I think Seigenthaler needed to deal with that, although not necessarily in any depth. I suspect he was ignorant of the process, and failed to inform himself. (Just like me). One thought: does the History segment need an additional meta-data item to contain not only the 'reverted' indicator, but also such descriptors as: - Dispute - Retraction - Correction - References Added The version that's current as I write this, handles the whole affair very deftly. It invokes at the end the maxim that we all had on our lips, but voiced by ... Seigenthaler. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Seigenthaler_Sr.#Wikipedia_controversy Wikipedia controversy Main article: John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy In May 2005, an anonymous user created a Wikipedia article for Seigenthaler which contained a number of inaccurate statements and the allegation that Seigenthaler might have been involved in the assassinations of Robert and John Kennedy. This version of the article remained largely undisturbed until September, when Victor Johnson, an old friend of Seigenthaler, brought it to his attention. Seigenthaler contacted Wikipedia, and the content was immediately deleted. This incident prompted Seigenthaler to write an Op-Ed in USA Today on November 29,[7] in which he stated that "...Wikipedia is a flawed and irresponsible research tool...[f]or four months, Wikipedia depicted me as a suspected assassin." Seigenthaler wrote that he had tried to determine the identity of the anonymous editor but had been unable to do so. Seigenthaler's article prompted a number of commentators to write about the issue and Wikipedia and the Internet in general, and on December 5, Seigenthaler appeared on CNN with Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales[8]. In the CNN interview, Seigenthaler said, "I've always thought the best answer to bad speech was better speech."[9] Looks like something close to an 'and they [almost] all lived happily ever after' kind of ending to me. -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Wed Dec 7 17:43:03 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Wed Dec 7 17:43:17 2005 Subject: [LINK] A false Wikipedia 'biography' In-Reply-To: <20051207001618.GS12961@taz.net.au> References: <4394B370.B2FE48A9@iimetro.com.au> <20051205231813.GO12961@taz.net.au> <439530AB.7050006@ozemail.com.au> <20051206122616.GR12961@taz.net.au> <43960019.1080106@ozemail.com.au> <20051207001618.GS12961@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <43968477.9000005@ozemail.com.au> Craig Sanders wrote: >On Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 08:18:17AM +1100, rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > > >>Wikipedia most certainly does describe itself as an encyclopedia - in >>ten languages on the front page. >> >> > >i never said it didn't. try addressing what i said, not some imaginary >straw-man. > > Here's what you said, Craig. When I said: >1) The guy in the pub doesn's say "I am an encyclopedia". Wikipedia does, on the entry page. ...you responded: >wikipedia is not the one making the claim, wikipedia is the pub. >>While "returning to the original source" is a good basic principle, many >>or most disciplines are too "distant": primary sources frequently need >>interpretation. That requirement is not evidence of stupidity; for >>example, if I want to know something about the Crusades, it's hardly >>likely that I know the 12th century languages in which the events are >>recorded. >> >>So the desire for an accessible authoritative source is not due to >>someone being slack or stupid. The only way any person could reasonably >>confine themselves to "prime sources only" is if they restrict their >>interests to that very small range of topics which they themselves can >>research, analyse, and interpret with some accuracy. >> >> > >the desire may not be, but the expectation that you'll ever get it >is. > Expecting that a fact is a fact is unrealistic? > there is no such thing as an unbiased source of information on >any subject. > Well, I'd be apt to believe that triangulation works free of bias, but I'm not prepared to get into the philosophy of information because it's a wasteland... >the best you can ever get is to read multiple (perhaps >conflicting) sources and try to identify the motivations and biases >of the writers. fortunately, that is one of the strengths of the net >- it makes it possible for multiple viewpoints and data sets to be >published with roughly equal accessibility, instead of just the (mostly) >right-wing viewpoint and data approved of by the owners of mainstream >media and their carefully selected editors. > > Only true for that subset for which: - the information exists on the Internet; and - the "original source" is accessible on the Internet. This approach to information also presupposes that "the assessment of multiple viewpoints" is a valid approach to the topic. This is not universally true; believing it is is to "buy" the pseudo-science argument that "Intelligent design must be taught because students must be exposed to the other point of view". >and yes, a lot of what you can read on the net is bullshit. big deal >- the same is true of newspapers. the net is just highlighting the >fact that all writing is inherently biased, that every author has >their own (or their employer's) point-of-view that they are pushing. >it's just that most people didn't realise that before because they >NEVER encountered any alternative view-points, so it was easy to be >fooled into believing that the minor variations on the single permitted >viewpoint expressed in mainstream press was "The Truth". it's a Good >Thing that people are learning to distrust whatever's printed, and >realise that they have to apply their judgement to whatever they read. > > It's a good thing when scepticism leads to a desire to find facts. The flipside is "they didn't go to the moon it was just a film set". One of the reasons it's not a bad thing to end up with a more-or-less solid version of reality is that you don't have to spend forever fighting the same stupid morons running around saying "It's true but the government and big press are keeping the secret! Area 51 has the body of an alien, I know somebody who once worked on the gate!" > > > >>As to Wikipedia? It's problem is that nobody wants responsibility. It >>is, as The Register described it today, a huge role-playing game. Some >>people take the game seriously, but they seem almost foolish for doing >>so, because there are so many "sock puppets" and graffitists whose >>intention is to destroy. >> >> > >in my experience the percentage of completely crap articles is very low >- the only ones i've ever noticed are those that someone makes a huge >fuss about so that it makes it some news site like slashdot. and in all >cases, they're about particular individuals - either being slagged off >by someone who doesn't like them, or where wikipedia is being exploited >by a nutcase to promote themselves and their kook ideas. > >a handful of not-very-important articles compared to the tens of >thousands with useful information in them. the science articles are of >particularly good quality. > > >i can guess why you don't like wikipedia and anything else blog-like, > > You'd be wrong. Media stopped being my main source of income 18 months ago. But it's not blogging that's the threat - that's just one of those mobius truths that only lives because the bloggers keep saying it. The advertising behaviour started moving years ago. >but you've just got to resign yourself to the fact that the days of >print newspapers holding a near monopoly on information flow are >numbered. > Buggered if I know: I never worked for a newspaper. > > > >>This one belief about Wikipedia does warrant analysis: >> >> >> >>>if he cares that much what people who read wikipedia think about >>>him, he can exercise the ability of anyone with net access to create >>>or amend any article on wikipedia. fight words with words, not >>>gutless scumbag lawsuits to oppress free speech. >>> >>> >>A right which cannot effectively be exercised doesn't really exist. >> >> > >how about backing up your bald assertion with some evidence or at least >reasoning - why can't it be effectively exercised? anyone can create an >account at wikipedia, anyone can create or amend an article. all you >need is internet access. that's more than you can say for any print >encyclopedia (or newspaper or magazine for that matter). > > 1) The ability to correct is theoretical in that the attacker can revert the text, and around it goes. I don't see that someone slimed by the anonymous poster should have to go through that. 2) Why on Earth would I consider "anonymous revision of the news" an improvement? Freedom of comment? No problem. Kooks rewriting stories to suit themselves? No way. >(and i didn't call it a right, i called it an ability - deliberately >so. an account can be disabled for abusing the priviledge). > > Only if Wikipedia agrees; and that means access to redress is in the hands of whom exactly? The people who happily do this to an individual they don't like: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/12/06/wikipedia_bio/page2.html I don't say "big media is virtuous". I say that anybody - including me - who wants to publish should have the balls to use his name. Richard Chirgwin > >craig > > > From lannet at lannet.com.au Wed Dec 7 18:05:00 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Wed Dec 7 18:05:28 2005 Subject: [LINK] Gene variant may depress IQ of males Message-ID: <4396899C.2020806@lannet.com.au> Flame bait for the girls... It appears that male IQ is a factor of genetic makeup, not an inverse function of the strength of the link 'twixt crutch and cranium, as is the belief of most females of the species. :) http://www.azstarnet.com/news/105238 THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS Tucson, Arizona | Published: 12.03.2005 DALLAS ? Scientists in North Carolina say they have identified a gene that affects IQ, a finding that, if confirmed, would be a significant step toward understanding the genetic basis for intelligence. The new research could also have ethical implications because the effect of the gene appears to be quite dramatic: The scientists say that males who inherit a particular version of the gene have, on average, an IQ that is 20 points lower than males who don't. "I have to admit, the ramifications of it are great," said Randy Jirtle, the Duke University biologist who led the new research, noting that current genetic-testing techniques can easily determine which males have that version. However, he stressed that the IQ results in his research were based on a group average; individual males carrying the gene version had a wide range of IQ scores. While females also can carry the variation, it does not appear to affect their IQ, he said. Jirtle reported the new findings last month at a scientific conference in Durham, N.C. As early as the 1920s, research suggested that genetics play a key role in determining a person's mental capabilities. But so far, connections between IQ and specific genes have been just correlations, with little supporting evidence. The new research, Jirtle and other experts said, will need to be replicated before it is considered definitive. Jirtle's research centers on a gene identified as IGF2R, for type 2 insulin like growth factor receptor. The gene governs the production of a protein that, among other jobs, affects cell growth. All people carry the gene, but some have a version with a slightly different code, Jirtle said. This variation, he and his colleagues found, correlates with a lower IQ. The researchers studied about 300 children with an average age of 10. The children, all Caucasian, came from six counties in the Cleveland area. As a group, males ? but not females ? who had the variant gene had IQ scores about 20 points lower than males who didn't. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au Wed Dec 7 16:45:56 2005 From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington) Date: Wed Dec 7 18:09:02 2005 Subject: [LINK] Hi-tech tourist in India in December Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051207164050.01e02e30@tomw.net.au> I wrote Sat, 19 Mar 1994 09:22:37 GMT (was: "Hi-tech tourist in Europe in April"): >Can you suggest any hi-tech related tourist activities for an Australian >computer person in Europe in April? ... I get a bit bored on holiday >looking at historic buildings and waterfalls... Off to Southern India for a few weeks shortly. Any suggestions for hitech things to see there? I thought I would see if anyone is actually using a Simputer . As with previous net travels I would be interested in suggestions as to what high technology aspects of the region to look at (as well as tourist attractions) and who to visit. Previous travels at . Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 http://www.tomw.net.au/ Director, ACS Communications Tech Board http://www.acs.org.au/ctb/ Visiting Fellow, ANU Blog: http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/atom.xml From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au Wed Dec 7 18:27:44 2005 From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee) Date: Wed Dec 7 18:27:52 2005 Subject: [LINK] Gene variant may depress IQ of males In-Reply-To: <4396899C.2020806@lannet.com.au> References: <4396899C.2020806@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <20051207072744.GA29080@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> Howard Lowndes wrote: > It appears that male IQ is a factor of genetic makeup, not an inverse > function of the strength of the link 'twixt crutch and cranium, as is > the belief of most females of the species. :) > > http://www.azstarnet.com/news/105238 I'm skeptical. Why hasn't this gene disappeared under the effects of natural selection? Either it's under balancing selection -- and has other effects which positively influence fitness (or did at some point) -- or it only has the claimed effect under environmental conditions that weren't present for most of human history. Or IQ/intelligence has no adaptive advantage... Danny. ---------------------------------------------------------- http://dannyreviews.com/ - over eight hundred book reviews http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog ---------------------------------------------------------- From link at todd.inoz.com Wed Dec 7 20:07:46 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Wed Dec 7 20:19:41 2005 Subject: [LINK] Gene variant may depress IQ of males In-Reply-To: <20051207072744.GA29080@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> References: <4396899C.2020806@lannet.com.au> <20051207072744.GA29080@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051207200643.0321a580@wheresmymailserver.com> I always understood humans gained intelligence from the proteins in a variety of meat products - hence the reason we actually eat meat as it doesn't provide sugars or energy so much as protein and other elements. I tend to lean on Danny's comments, especially given my own limited research :) At 06:27 PM 7/12/2005, Danny Yee wrote: >Howard Lowndes wrote: > > It appears that male IQ is a factor of genetic makeup, not an inverse > > function of the strength of the link 'twixt crutch and cranium, as is > > the belief of most females of the species. :) > > > > http://www.azstarnet.com/news/105238 > >I'm skeptical. Why hasn't this gene disappeared under the effects >of natural selection? Either it's under balancing selection -- and >has other effects which positively influence fitness (or did at some >point) -- or it only has the claimed effect under environmental >conditions that weren't present for most of human history. >Or IQ/intelligence has no adaptive advantage... > >Danny. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > http://dannyreviews.com/ - over eight hundred book reviews > http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog > ---------------------------------------------------------- >_______________________________________________ >Link mailing list >Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au Thu Dec 8 07:26:52 2005 From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington) Date: Thu Dec 8 07:43:12 2005 Subject: [LINK] 2008 Olympics could go open source In-Reply-To: <43950625.5070007@lannet.com.au> References: <43950625.5070007@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051207091002.03687fc8@fastmail.fm> At 02:31 PM 12/6/2005, Howard Lowndes wrote: >Here's one for TomW > >http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/soa/2008_Olympics_could_go_open_source/0,2000061733,39226012,00.htm > >The 2008 Beijing Olympic Games could switch to an open-source technology >platform under proposals to be considered by the International Olympic >Committee. ... Thanks. Open source for the Olympics is a good idea. I don't think we discussed it at the 2008 Olympics Web symposium I attended in Beijing . But I suggested it to a delegation from their Ministry of Information Industry, later that month when they visited Canberra . >But support costs could hinder the open-source switch, Philipps said. "The >issue might be support because, especially in China, you don't have all >the companies we have in Europe and the US." The people I met from Beijing University were very smart. If there aren't suitable companies already in China (which I suspect there are), the locals will set them up. Also the Olympic committee could use IT students as volunteers. This could include Chinese students trained in Australia. The ones at ANU learn Linux, open source development and how to design an Olympic web sites . >The inflexible deadlines and the need for security for the Olympic Games >mean the technology choices are usually quite conservative. This led to >wireless networks being banned for previous games but that, too, could >change for Beijing in 2008. ... The Sydney 2000 Olympics had a trunked radio network for voice communications (hybrid analog/digital). I was issued with a radio as a volunteer, before I had to resign due to the discrimination case . In Beijing I noticed people on rickety looking bicycles talking on very fancy looking mobile phones. So with or without official endorsement, I expect there will be a lot of wireless used. Beijing is flat and so wireless should work well. Not entirely seriously, I suggested the Beijing government rent out the roof of each public toilet for wireless access points . ;-) Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 http://www.tomw.net.au/ Director, ACS Communications Tech Board http://www.acs.org.au/ctb/ Visiting Fellow, ANU Blog: http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/atom.xml From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Thu Dec 8 07:35:21 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Thu Dec 8 07:48:04 2005 Subject: [LINK] telling now banned Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20051208073446.02116408@popa.melbpc.org.au> >the Onion* > >RIAA Bans Telling Friends About Songs > >November 30, 2005 | Issue 41*48 > >LOS ANGELES-The Recording Industry Association of America announced >Tuesday that it will be taking legal action against anyone discovered >telling friends, acquaintances, or associates about new songs, artists, or >albums. "We are merely exercising our right to defend our intellectual >properties from unauthorized peer-to-peer notification of the existence of >copyrighted material," a press release signed by RIAA anti-piracy director >Brad Buckles read. "We will aggressively prosecute those individuals who >attempt to pirate our property by generating 'buzz' about any proprietary >music, movies, or software, or enjoy same in the company of anyone other >than themselves." RIAA attorneys said they were also looking into the >legality of word-of-mouth "favorites-sharing" sites, such as coffee shops, >universities, and living rooms. *in case you don't know, the Onion is a satire site JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From brd at iimetro.com.au Thu Dec 8 09:23:52 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Thu Dec 8 09:24:09 2005 Subject: [LINK] telling now banned References: <6.0.3.0.0.20051208073446.02116408@popa.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <439760F8.793F71B3@iimetro.com.au> There is a resonance with these real life comments in the SMH this week. The problem with rushing legislation through is the unintended consequences. Fined if you do and bombed if you don't December 6, 2005 Stay in Touch SMH http://search.smh.com.au/click.ac?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.smh.com.au%2Fnews%2Fstay-in-touch%2Ffined-if-you-do-and-bombed-if-you-dont%2F2005%2F12%2F05%2F1133631201076.html&t=4&n=121&s=%22department+of+transport%22+AND+bomb+AND+yesterday Imagine this scenario (don't worry, it's fictional). You're on a plane, a maniac beside you says he's put a bomb on board, and he's planning to blow it up. You believe him. Now answer this: if you were a good, obedient Australian, does the law instruct you to (a) tell the cabin crew of the danger, or (b) say nothing and let it explode? If you answered (a), you'd be half way to a $5500 fine. If you answered (b), you would've obeyed the law, but you'd be dead. An eagle-eyed reader has spotted what seems to be an odd law indeed, prompted by yesterday's Frankenstein column on silly laws. In the Aviation Transport Security Regulations of 2005, clause 9.01 prohibits both a threat to interfere with an aircraft, like planting a bomb, and saying someone has done such a thing. It's meant to ban hoaxes, but it seems to have gone further. On our reading, it means you're not allowed to tell anyone - the police, for example - that you've put a bomb on board, even if you have. It also means you're not allowed to tell anyone if you discover that someone else has put a bomb on board, even if they have. Eh? We asked the Department of Transport and Regional Services if we were right, but it could not answer yesterday. It has promised to get back to us today. But Dr Ben Saul, of the University of NSW's faculty of law, says we may be right, or in his words: "It may cover innocent persons who overhear another and tell someone else." Tomorrow, we'll let you know whether the department says it's safe to sound the alarm, or whether you should sit back in your seats ... and let the plane explode. BOMBS December 6, 2005 Stay in Touch SMH http://www.smh.com.au/news/stay-in-touch/in-pyrmont-a-star-is-torn/2005/12/06/1133829596408.html?page=2 Our claim yesterday that it was illegal to tell anyone if you overheard someone planting a bomb on a plane was no joke. The Department of Transport and Regional Services took 24 hours to think about it, and has now told us: "It may be possible to argue that someone simply reporting an overheard threat falls within scope of paragraph (b) and commits an offence, but this is not the intention behind Regulation 9.01 of the Aviation Transport Security Regulations 2005." The intention is to catch hoaxes, but we say intention schmention; it's what it does that counts. Fix it, because that law now says: hear something, don't say anything. Jan Whitaker wrote: > > >the Onion* > > > >RIAA Bans Telling Friends About Songs > > > >November 30, 2005 | Issue 41*48 > > > >LOS ANGELES-The Recording Industry Association of America announced > >Tuesday that it will be taking legal action against anyone discovered > >telling friends, acquaintances, or associates about new songs, artists, or > >albums. "We are merely exercising our right to defend our intellectual > >properties from unauthorized peer-to-peer notification of the existence of > >copyrighted material," a press release signed by RIAA anti-piracy director > >Brad Buckles read. "We will aggressively prosecute those individuals who > >attempt to pirate our property by generating 'buzz' about any proprietary > >music, movies, or software, or enjoy same in the company of anyone other > >than themselves." RIAA attorneys said they were also looking into the > >legality of word-of-mouth "favorites-sharing" sites, such as coffee shops, > >universities, and living rooms. > > *in case you don't know, the Onion is a satire site > > JLWhitaker Associates > Melbourne, Victoria, Australia > jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm > > 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is > no plant.' - JW, April 2005 > _ __________________ _ > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link -- The consequences of things are not always proportionate to the apparent magnitude of those events that have produced them. Thus the American Revolution, from which little was expected, produced much; but the French Revolution, from which much was expected, produced little. -- Charles Caleb Colton Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From link at todd.inoz.com Thu Dec 8 10:42:51 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Thu Dec 8 10:45:16 2005 Subject: [LINK] telling now banned In-Reply-To: <439760F8.793F71B3@iimetro.com.au> References: <6.0.3.0.0.20051208073446.02116408@popa.melbpc.org.au> <439760F8.793F71B3@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051208103116.04fc99a8@wheresmymailserver.com> At 09:23 AM 8/12/2005, Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: >There is a resonance with these real life comments in the SMH this week. > >The problem with rushing legislation through is the unintended consequences. The consequence is far more reaching than this. The new Anti-Terror laws, which are in fact only amendments to the Criminal Code in case anyone was having trouble finding the "new laws" create a range of "if then, but otherwise you are anyway" situations. I'm actually testing the consequence of this "wording" in the Supreme Court presently in a proceeding not so much about terrorism, but then again, my family does feel terrorised by the situation. If I win, then the style of wordsmanship is of great concern, to everyone. Because for all intents and purposes the way the legislation is worded, you are guilty of an offence even if you didn't know an offence was being planned, committed or contemplated, but you should have known because you just should. In relation to the "telling" part so well described below, the bottom line is, unless there is an indefinity from prosecution within the legislation (as there is in the Children and Young Person Care and Protection Act, and the Family Law Act, to protect people who make false and misleading vindictive complaints about others from prosecution either criminal or civil) you don't tell anyone anything. I'd suggest faking a heart attack or some psychotic episode if you are on a plane and fear a bomb is really on board. A few hours being assessed by a psychiatrist to find out you had a momentary psychotic episode causing an aversion to flying and saving the other 100-400 passengers on broad would will be unloaded by the return of the plane, is far better than being blown up in the air. You could tell the psychiatrist that you fear there is a bomb, because of all the "alert not alarmed messages" on TV and the "tell someone" things and it got into your head at that moment and you really fear there is a bomb and want them to prove to you there isn't. OK, I'm not in story writing mood today, but you get the drift :) And Mental Hospitals aren't all that bad, you get a hell of a lot of work done on a mobile phone and laptop without all the distractions of the outside world! And remember, you don't have to have mens rea in this situation. You just need someone with a gungho attitude to want to clock up marker for a promotion and you're paying his salary bonus for Christmas! >Fined if you do and bombed if you don't >December 6, 2005 >Stay in Touch >SMH >http://search.smh.com.au/click.ac?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.smh.com.au%2Fnews%2Fstay-in-touch%2Ffined-if-you-do-and-bombed-if-you-dont%2F2005%2F12%2F05%2F1133631201076.html&t=4&n=121&s=%22department+of+transport%22+AND+bomb+AND+yesterday > >Imagine this scenario (don't worry, it's fictional). You're on a plane, a >maniac beside you says he's put a bomb on board, and he's planning to blow it >up. You believe him. > >Now answer this: if you were a good, obedient Australian, does the law >instruct >you to (a) tell the cabin crew of the danger, or (b) say nothing and let it >explode? > >If you answered (a), you'd be half way to a $5500 fine. If you answered (b), >you would've obeyed the law, but you'd be dead. > >An eagle-eyed reader has spotted what seems to be an odd law indeed, prompted >by yesterday's Frankenstein column on silly laws. > >In the Aviation Transport Security Regulations of 2005, clause 9.01 prohibits >both a threat to interfere with an aircraft, like planting a bomb, and saying >someone has done such a thing. It's meant to ban hoaxes, but it seems to have >gone further. On our reading, it means you're not allowed to tell anyone - the >police, for example - that you've put a bomb on board, even if you have. It >also means you're not allowed to tell anyone if you discover that someone else >has put a bomb on board, even if they have. Eh? > >We asked the Department of Transport and Regional Services if we were right, >but it could not answer yesterday. It has promised to get back to us today. > >But Dr Ben Saul, of the University of NSW's faculty of law, says we may be >right, or in his words: "It may cover innocent persons who overhear >another and >tell someone else." > >Tomorrow, we'll let you know whether the department says it's safe to >sound the >alarm, or whether you should sit back in your seats ... and let the plane >explode. > >BOMBS >December 6, 2005 >Stay in Touch >SMH >http://www.smh.com.au/news/stay-in-touch/in-pyrmont-a-star-is-torn/2005/12/06/1133829596408.html?page=2 > >Our claim yesterday that it was illegal to tell anyone if you overheard >someone >planting a bomb on a plane was no joke. The Department of Transport and >Regional Services took 24 hours to think about it, and has now told us: >"It may >be possible to argue that someone simply reporting an overheard threat falls >within scope of paragraph (b) and commits an offence, but this is not the >intention behind Regulation 9.01 of the Aviation Transport Security >Regulations >2005." The intention is to catch hoaxes, but we say intention schmention; it's >what it does that counts. Fix it, because that law now says: hear something, >don't say anything. > > >Jan Whitaker wrote: > > > > >the Onion* > > > > > >RIAA Bans Telling Friends About Songs > > > > > >November 30, 2005 | Issue 41*48 > > > > > >LOS ANGELES-The Recording Industry Association of America announced > > >Tuesday that it will be taking legal action against anyone discovered > > >telling friends, acquaintances, or associates about new songs, artists, or > > >albums. "We are merely exercising our right to defend our intellectual > > >properties from unauthorized peer-to-peer notification of the existence of > > >copyrighted material," a press release signed by RIAA anti-piracy director > > >Brad Buckles read. "We will aggressively prosecute those individuals who > > >attempt to pirate our property by generating 'buzz' about any proprietary > > >music, movies, or software, or enjoy same in the company of anyone other > > >than themselves." RIAA attorneys said they were also looking into the > > >legality of word-of-mouth "favorites-sharing" sites, such as coffee shops, > > >universities, and living rooms. > > > > *in case you don't know, the Onion is a satire site > > > > JLWhitaker Associates > > Melbourne, Victoria, Australia > > jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm > > > > 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is > > no plant.' - JW, April 2005 > > _ __________________ _ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Link mailing list > > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > >-- >The consequences of things are not always proportionate to the apparent >magnitude of those events that have produced them. Thus the American >Revolution, from which little was expected, produced much; but the French >Revolution, from which much was expected, produced little. >-- Charles Caleb Colton > >Regards >brd > >Bernard Robertson-Dunn >Sydney Australia >brd@iimetro.com.au > >_______________________________________________ >Link mailing list >Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Thu Dec 8 13:32:57 2005 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Thu Dec 8 13:33:16 2005 Subject: [LINK] RFC: Google - User Perspectives Message-ID: I'd greatly appreciate brisk feedback on the notes below. They're for presentation at Matt Rimmer's seminar on Google at the A.N.U. tommorow, Friday, 12:00-14:00 Google - User Perspectives http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/II/Google0512.html These notes provide a brief, two-stage description of what Google is, and consider the interests of users of various kinds, depicted as: - content-accessors; - content-expressors; - content consumers; and - the private person. Slides at: http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/II/Google0512.ppt -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From jbirch at multinode.com.au Thu Dec 8 13:45:06 2005 From: jbirch at multinode.com.au (Jim Birch) Date: Thu Dec 8 13:45:10 2005 Subject: [LINK] ntel is working on a research project that would immediately notify PC users if they inadvertently download a rootkit like the XCP (extended copy protection) software found on certain music CDs shipped by Sony, researchers said Tuesday. Message-ID: <43979E32.5030000@multinode.com.au> "Intel is working on a research project that would immediately notify PC users if they inadvertently download a rootkit like the XCP (extended copy protection) software found on certain music CDs shipped by Sony, researchers said Tuesday." http://www.arnnet.com.au/index.php?id=1181050607&eid=-4152 Correct me ig I'm wrong, but isn't this (yet) another wonky bolt-on patch attempting to fix a gaping design problem in underlying OS? -- Jim Birch jbirch-at-multinode*com*au t: 04 1243 1243 ----- Maybe this world is another planet's Hell. - Aldous Huxley From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Thu Dec 8 20:48:26 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Thu Dec 8 20:48:27 2005 Subject: [LINK] [USA] Patent sanity is pending In-Reply-To: <4394E03F.8BAC25AB@iimetro.com.au> References: <4394E03F.8BAC25AB@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <4398016A.2090808@ozemail.com.au> We can only hope ... RC Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: >Patent sanity is pending >December 4, 2005 >latimes.com >http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/editorials/la-ed-ebay4dec04,0,6943666.story?coll=la-news-comment-editorials > >PATENT LAWS MAY BE AN inventor's best friend, giving someone with a >groundbreaking idea the means to capitalize on it. But on many levels, the U.S. >patent system is profoundly flawed. Too many patents are issued for >"innovations" that are obvious, vague or already in wide use. Too many patent >holders try to extend their claims to devices and services that weren't even >contemplated when the patents were granted. And it's a difficult, costly >exercise to overturn a questionable patent after it has been awarded. > >Compounding the problem, federal courts have been quick to hand patent holders >a sledgehammer when their patents have been infringed. The appeals court in >Washington takes the position that, except in exceptional circumstances, courts >must issue permanent injunctions to stop infringers from using the inventions >in dispute. > >As a consequence, someone who holds a patent over even a small piece of a >product, service or business model could shut an entire operation down ? a nice >bit of leverage when it comes to negotiating a licensing fee. As the Federal >Trade Commission noted in a 2003 report, firms in some high-tech fields must >obtain licenses to "dozens, hundreds or even thousands of patents" to produce >just one product. > >Last week, the Supreme Court agreed to review the appeals court's stance. The >case in question pits MercExchange, a small Virginia company that holds patents >related to online commerce, against online auction giant EBay. But the issue is >vital to a broad array of other technology, pharmaceutical and chemical >companies. > >The courts may be right in this case to stop EBay from using technology >patented by MercExchange, whose attempt to launch an online auction service >fizzled several years ago. But judges need flexibility to provide different >remedies in different situations. Patents must be enforced, but that doesn't >necessarily require courts to award crippling injunctions ? particularly when >the patent in dispute is just one of many involved in the product, service or >business that would be shut down by an injunction. Nor is it good policy to >encourage the creation of companies whose purpose is not to develop new >products and services but to shake down businesses that do. > >Besides, the near-automatic granting of injunctions can lead to the absurd >result of a company being forced to pay royalties to license patents later >found to be invalid. That's the potential result in the battle between Research >in Motion, the company behind the popular BlackBerry wireless e-mail devices, >and patent holder NTP Inc. A federal judge may reinstate the injunction he >granted against RIM for violating NTP's patents even though the Patent Office, >which is reexamining the patents, has issued preliminary findings that all five >are invalid. > > > From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Thu Dec 8 20:51:51 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Thu Dec 8 20:51:53 2005 Subject: [LINK] Hi-tech tourist in India in December In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20051207164050.01e02e30@tomw.net.au> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20051207164050.01e02e30@tomw.net.au> Message-ID: <43980237.5030805@ozemail.com.au> Tom Worthington wrote: > I wrote Sat, 19 Mar 1994 09:22:37 GMT (was: "Hi-tech tourist in Europe in > April"): > > >Can you suggest any hi-tech related tourist activities for an Australian > >computer person in Europe in April? ... I get a bit bored on holiday > >looking at historic buildings and waterfalls... >grins< De gustibus non disputam est, or some such ... I love the history stuff! > > Off to Southern India for a few weeks shortly. Any suggestions for > hitech things to see there? I thought I would see if anyone is > actually using a Simputer > . > > As with previous net travels I would be interested in suggestions as > to what > high technology aspects of the region to look at (as well as tourist > attractions) and who to visit. >grins double< What about a training centre where they teach call centre ops to pretend to be Bruce from Penrieth? RC > > Previous travels at . > > > > Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 > Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 > PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 http://www.tomw.net.au/ > Director, ACS Communications Tech Board http://www.acs.org.au/ctb/ > Visiting Fellow, ANU Blog: http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/atom.xml > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > From link at todd.inoz.com Thu Dec 8 21:58:06 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Thu Dec 8 22:00:55 2005 Subject: [LINK] ntel is working on a research project that would immediately notify PC users if they inadvertently download a rootkit like the XCP (extended copy protection) software found on certain music CDs shipped by Sony, researchers said Tuesday. In-Reply-To: <43979E32.5030000@multinode.com.au> References: <43979E32.5030000@multinode.com.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051208215750.02fa3838@wheresmymailserver.com> Wouldn't this be a violation of the DRM or whatever it's called :) At 01:45 PM 8/12/2005, Jim Birch wrote: >"Intel is working on a research project that would immediately notify PC >users if they inadvertently download a rootkit like the XCP (extended copy >protection) software found on certain music CDs shipped by Sony, >researchers said Tuesday." > >http://www.arnnet.com.au/index.php?id=1181050607&eid=-4152 > > >Correct me ig I'm wrong, but isn't this (yet) another wonky bolt-on patch >attempting to fix a gaping design problem in underlying OS? From link at todd.inoz.com Fri Dec 9 00:59:05 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Fri Dec 9 01:01:52 2005 Subject: [LINK] telling now banned In-Reply-To: <439760F8.793F71B3@iimetro.com.au> References: <6.0.3.0.0.20051208073446.02116408@popa.melbpc.org.au> <439760F8.793F71B3@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051209005823.02f57f70@wheresmymailserver.com> >In the Aviation Transport Security Regulations of 2005, clause 9.01 prohibits >both a threat to interfere with an aircraft, like planting a bomb, and saying >someone has done such a thing. It's meant to ban hoaxes, but it seems to have >gone further. On our reading, it means you're not allowed to tell anyone - Speaking of which, today in Florida, a man jumped off a plane screaming he had a bomb. Forget the $5,500 fine, the Folirda police shot him dead. Poor guy apparently had a mental illness. From lannet at lannet.com.au Fri Dec 9 07:44:36 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Fri Dec 9 07:44:57 2005 Subject: [LINK] telling now banned In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20051209005823.02f57f70@wheresmymailserver.com> References: <6.0.3.0.0.20051208073446.02116408@popa.melbpc.org.au> <439760F8.793F71B3@iimetro.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051209005823.02f57f70@wheresmymailserver.com> Message-ID: <43989B34.9080506@lannet.com.au> "Damned if they do, damned if they don't" Read the reports and comments from the authorities, and you have to believe them in the absence of evidence to the contrary: He was bipolar - but it's likely that of all the people in the area only he and his wife knew that. He had apparently not taken his meds, according to his wife - if she knew that why hadn't she done something about it. His behavour was erratic. He had a carry-on bag and when told to stop, reached into the bag. When instructed to stop he ran up the jetway, possibly towards a bigger people target than that on the plane. OK, you now have 1 second to respond... Adam Todd wrote: > >> In the Aviation Transport Security Regulations of 2005, clause 9.01 >> prohibits >> both a threat to interfere with an aircraft, like planting a bomb, and >> saying >> someone has done such a thing. It's meant to ban hoaxes, but it seems >> to have >> gone further. On our reading, it means you're not allowed to tell >> anyone - > > > Speaking of which, today in Florida, a man jumped off a plane screaming > he had a bomb. > > Forget the $5,500 fine, the Folirda police shot him dead. > > Poor guy apparently had a mental illness. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From brd at iimetro.com.au Fri Dec 9 08:50:16 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Fri Dec 9 08:50:31 2005 Subject: [LINK] ID fears overblown - study Message-ID: <4398AA98.A570FD6E@iimetro.com.au> ID fears overblown - study Correspondents in Chicago DECEMBER 09, 2005 The Australian http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,17511431%5E15306%5E%5Enbv%5E,00.html A NEW study suggests consumers whose credit cards are lost or stolen or whose personal information is accidentally compromised face little risk of becoming victims of identity theft. The analysis also found that even in the most dangerous data breaches - where thieves access social security numbers and other sensitive information on consumers they have deliberately targeted - only about one in 1000 victims had their identities stolen. California-based fraud detection company ID Analytics said it looked at four recent data breaches involving a total of 500,000 consumers. It declined to provide the names of the companies involved in the breaches, but Mike Cook, ID Analytics co-founder, said one of them was a top five US bank. After six months of study, comparing compromised information against credit applications, ID Analytics said it discovered that the smaller the breach, the greater the likelihood the information was subsequently used by fraudsters to hijack the identity of victims. "If you're in a breach of 100, 200 or 250 names, there's a pretty high probability that you're identity is going to be used," Mr Cook said. "The reason for that is if you look at how long it takes a fraudster to use an identity, they can roughly use 100 to 250 in a year. But as the size of the breach grows, it drops off pretty drastically." A study conducted earlier this year by Javelin Strategy and Research, which mirrored the methodology of an earlier US Federal Trade Commission study, found that 9.3 million Americans said they had been victimised by identity thieves during the preceding 12 months. ID Analytics said it discovered that identity thieves have a hard time using a stolen credit cards to hijack the identity of cardholders because the cards are usually quickly canceled - and because piecing together an identity based on the information on the card is hard work. Not one of the card breaches it studied resulted in a subsequent identity takeover. While the findings will provide some comfort to consumers whose credit cards are lost or lifted or whose sensitive information is compromised when, for instance, a laptop is stolen, as recently happened at Boeing, some of ID Analytics' suggestions could be controversial. The company suggested, for example, that companies shouldn't always notify consumers of data breaches because they may be unnecessarily alarming people who stand little chance of being victimised. -- I don't need to worry about identity theft because no one wants to be me. -- Jay London Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From link at todd.inoz.com Fri Dec 9 10:37:30 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Fri Dec 9 10:47:46 2005 Subject: [LINK] ID fears overblown - study In-Reply-To: <4398AA98.A570FD6E@iimetro.com.au> References: <4398AA98.A570FD6E@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051209103356.04e10ae0@wheresmymailserver.com> >California-based fraud detection company ID Analytics said it looked at four >recent data breaches involving a total of 500,000 consumers. It declined to > >"If you're in a breach of 100, 200 or 250 names, there's a pretty high >probability that you're identity is going to be used," Mr Cook said. > >"The reason for that is if you look at how long it takes a fraudster to >use an identity, they can roughly use 100 to 250 in a year. But as the >size of the breach grows, it drops off pretty drastically." That's stupid! I can't believe they wrote or said that - the Marketing Guru must have been paid double for those lines. If a fraudster can only use 100-200 identities a year (that's one every 2 to 3 days) then it doesn't matter whether they acquired 100 names of 5 million names, the level of fraud is the same. It's still 100-200 frauds a year. Does that mean if the "breaches" were only 1 of 50 names at a time, that you have a 2 in 1 chance of being a victim of identify theft, but if you are one of 500,000 you have a 1 in 2500 chance? Maybe the fraudster will use those identities next year instead of trying to find a new source of data? Does that now mean you have a 1 in 1250 chance? And over ten years perhaps a 1 in 50 chance? Good PR lines, very bad basis of math. That's what I call creating a deceptive fraudulent view in the mind of consumer confidence. The Identity Fraud is not with the stolen details and their use, it's with the fraud of misconception being sold by the holders of the data to the consumer. From link at todd.inoz.com Fri Dec 9 10:43:48 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Fri Dec 9 10:48:21 2005 Subject: [LINK] telling now banned In-Reply-To: <43989B34.9080506@lannet.com.au> References: <6.0.3.0.0.20051208073446.02116408@popa.melbpc.org.au> <439760F8.793F71B3@iimetro.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051209005823.02f57f70@wheresmymailserver.com> <43989B34.9080506@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051209103836.03323eb8@wheresmymailserver.com> At 07:44 AM 9/12/2005, Howard Lowndes wrote: >"Damned if they do, damned if they don't" > >Read the reports and comments from the authorities, and you have to >believe them in the absence of evidence to the contrary: > >He was bipolar - but it's likely that of all the people in the area only >he and his wife knew that. Irrelevant. Pretty much everyone in our society is Bipolar. If you have a period of time when you are sad and a period of time when you are happy, you are technically bipolar! Whether that period is equal to each emotional swing, unbalanced, short or long. BTW all women are bipolar by default, they have monthly hormones swings. So lets not blame a generic term used by subjective people to create an excuse for a tragedy. >He had apparently not taken his meds, according to his wife - if she knew >that why hadn't she done something about it. As to the question, we won't know. It won't be reported. As to the meds, there is a lot more to medications than popping a pill and he'll be a good boy. >His behavour was erratic. Isn't everyones? Especially today? Gosh yesterday I was carrying a box of Final Studio Pro. I was at Town Hall station and put it down on the ground at my feet. My son was with me. I walked over to the indicator screens to see which train to catch and turned around to see several people looking suspiciously at my box, at me at my box then me. Sheesh! >He had a carry-on bag and when told to stop, reached into the bag. If he was a woman would he have been treated with suspicion? >When instructed to stop he ran up the jetway, possibly towards a bigger >people target than that on the plane. Maybe he's sick of people, in authority, accusing him of everything and just wanted to get away. Maybe people with mental illness should wear only red t-shirts? >OK, you now have 1 second to respond... Or? ;) This is a Gestapo attitude - shoot first, ask questions later. I've lived through this behavior in our own "free" country too many times now to even begin to question the behavior of authorities, I just know they'll do the wrong thing - every time. And with this in mind, there is a documentary being done about the abusiveness of authority and government in our own country presently to which I'm in front of the camera for an uncomfortable change, and boy, is it going to wake people up - a lot. From lannet at lannet.com.au Fri Dec 9 12:02:06 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Fri Dec 9 12:02:27 2005 Subject: [LINK] telling now banned In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20051209103836.03323eb8@wheresmymailserver.com> References: <6.0.3.0.0.20051208073446.02116408@popa.melbpc.org.au> <439760F8.793F71B3@iimetro.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051209005823.02f57f70@wheresmymailserver.com> <43989B34.9080506@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051209103836.03323eb8@wheresmymailserver.com> Message-ID: <4398D78E.4000203@lannet.com.au> Adam Todd wrote: > This is a Gestapo attitude - shoot first, ask questions later. I've > lived through this behavior in our own "free" country too many times now > to even begin to question the behavior of authorities, I just know > they'll do the wrong thing - every time. So, we (or rather, our gummint on our behalf) appoint air marshalls. They are trained to shoot first and ask questions afterwards. > > And with this in mind, there is a documentary being done about the > abusiveness of authority and government in our own country presently to > which I'm in front of the camera for an uncomfortable change, and boy, > is it going to wake people up - a lot. No it won't. There is no way that you will get the attention of the media, or the air time, any where near the extent that Howard and Ruddock will/do. The media just love to be fed juicy terror scare stories, it sells; feed them gummint corruption and abuse stories and they might just have to do some investigative journalism to avoid being sued, and they still might lose their cosy lobby access. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From p.hughes at latrobe.edu.au Wed Dec 7 13:44:51 2005 From: p.hughes at latrobe.edu.au (Peter Hughes) Date: Fri Dec 9 14:31:40 2005 Subject: [LINK] PhD scholarship of possible interest Message-ID: <3A7E0E78-AC2D-4154-9240-8419810B458B@latrobe.edu.au> Linkers, This may be of interest to some linkers, or to people you know. One of the areas we are researching is the application of new technologies. We are seeking Expressions of Interest from potential Ph.D. candidates with an interest in examining the now the Internet is, or could be used by citizens and emergency agencies in the context of bushfires. Please see the attached notice for more details. I would be grateful if you could pass this on to potential students or repost this e-mail on other lists. Many thanks, -------------- next part -------------- All the best, P. -------------------------------------------- Peter Hughes Program Coordinator, Media Studies Program, La Trobe University, Victoria, 3086, Australia. ph: +61 3 9479 3065 (w), fax: +61 3 9479 3638 (w) http://www.latrobe.edu.au/media Screening the past. An international, refereed electronic journal of visual media and history: http://www.latrobe.edu.au/screeningthepast From link at todd.inoz.com Fri Dec 9 17:28:44 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Fri Dec 9 17:31:08 2005 Subject: [LINK] telling now banned In-Reply-To: <4398D78E.4000203@lannet.com.au> References: <6.0.3.0.0.20051208073446.02116408@popa.melbpc.org.au> <439760F8.793F71B3@iimetro.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051209005823.02f57f70@wheresmymailserver.com> <43989B34.9080506@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051209103836.03323eb8@wheresmymailserver.com> <4398D78E.4000203@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051209172411.036c9810@wheresmymailserver.com> At 12:02 PM 9/12/2005, Howard Lowndes wrote: >Adam Todd wrote: >>This is a Gestapo attitude - shoot first, ask questions later. I've >>lived through this behavior in our own "free" country too many times now >>to even begin to question the behavior of authorities, I just know >>they'll do the wrong thing - every time. > >So, we (or rather, our gummint on our behalf) appoint air marshalls. They >are trained to shoot first and ask questions afterwards. It's always cheaper and more efficient to shoot first, kill the Person Of Interest (POI) and move onto the next case ... than to catch the person, undertake Identification procedures, write preliminary reports, write up charges, allegations brief of evidence, collect statements, turn up to court for mention, have an adjournment, collect more evidence, conduct interviews, turn up to court, hand over brief of evidence several weeks overdue, prime the witnesses, groom the judge^H^H^H^H^H^H witnesses, turn up to court, complain that it's taking so long, write a report to management, turn up to court, set a hearing date, bitterly complain more about the charges being minor compared to what they should be, spend a day in court being examined, loose the case. See cheaper, faster and easier - doesn't involve anywhere near as many geographical locations, or people, or reports, and you don't need to really know much about a word processor cause when you shoot the POI, no one is going to make you sit down and write a report, they'll get you a dozen councillors, give you a holiday leave bonus and by the time you get back to normal duties, we'll have moved from Terrorism to Thought Policing :) >>And with this in mind, there is a documentary being done about the >>abusiveness of authority and government in our own country presently to >>which I'm in front of the camera for an uncomfortable change, and boy, is >>it going to wake people up - a lot. > >No it won't. There is no way that you will get the attention of the >media, or the air time, any where near the extent that Howard and Ruddock >will/do. Oh phooey to Howard and Ruddock! They abdicated their responsibilities when they delegated the accountability to a subordinate! >The media just love to be fed juicy terror scare stories, it sells; feed >them gummint corruption and abuse stories and they might just have to do >some investigative journalism to avoid being sued, and they still might >lose their cosy lobby access. More coming - soon :) From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Sat Dec 10 07:49:42 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Sat Dec 10 07:49:50 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> References: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <4399EDE6.6010907@ozemail.com.au> And again and again and again ... This time, a patch for a different copy-control client, also used by Sony, is found to be vulnerable. Detailed technical report here: http://www.eff.org/IP/DRM/Sony-BMG/MediaMaxVulnerabilityReport.pdf Various news stories around, and for the record just *one* today on a local byline ... Google News isec sony will provide plenty of links. I begin to suspect that DRM has to be considered architecturally insecure... RC Brendan Scott wrote: > Can anyone tell me whether the Sony rootkit debacle got much coverage > in AU press? > > Thanks > > > Brendan > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > From lannet at lannet.com.au Sat Dec 10 09:11:16 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Sat Dec 10 09:11:39 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <4399EDE6.6010907@ozemail.com.au> References: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> <4399EDE6.6010907@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <439A0104.60804@lannet.com.au> rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > And again and again and again ... > > This time, a patch for a different copy-control client, also used by > Sony, is found to be vulnerable. Detailed technical report here: > http://www.eff.org/IP/DRM/Sony-BMG/MediaMaxVulnerabilityReport.pdf > > Various news stories around, and for the record just *one* today on a > local byline ... Google News isec sony will provide plenty of links. > > I begin to suspect that DRM has to be considered architecturally > insecure... > IMO its inherent insecurity will not be a deterrent to its wide implementation. The media moguls are only interested in the primary effect and are not bothered about the secondary effects. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Sat Dec 10 10:09:25 2005 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Sat Dec 10 10:09:41 2005 Subject: [LINK] OT: Germany 2006 Message-ID: Based on the positions of the teams on the table, the average for each Group should be 783/8 = 98. So how easy and hard are the Groups? The Group of Death: E Italy 12, Czech Rep. 2, USA 8, Ghana 50 72! Although USA is rated far too high, Ghana is far too low (Expectation: Italy and Czech) Easily the Second Most Competitive: F Brazil 1, Japan 15, Croatia 20, AUSTRALIA 49 85 Australia is under-rated, so it's worse than 85 suggests If Uruguay had got there, the pots may have been different; otherwise the total would have been a remarkably tiny 54 (Brazil, and a lottery, leaning to Croatia) The Easiest Group (for the highly-placed teams, that is): G France 5, Korea 29, Switzerland 36, Togo 56 126 France is rated too high, Korea a bit low (France and Korea) Other Easy Groups: H Spain 6, Tunisia 28, Saudi 32, Ukraine 40 106 (Spain, and anyone's guess, leaning to Ukraine, always assuming Shevchenko doesn't get injured) B England 9, Sweden 14, Paraguay 30, Trinidad 51 104 (no excuses for England and Sweden) Average Groups, c. 98 A Germany 16, Costa Rica 21, Poland 23, Ecuador 37 97 (Germany, plus the least-good last-16 team) C Argentina 4, Netherlands 3, Ivory Coast 41, Serbia 47 95 (Even eternal arguers Holland can't muck this one up) D Mexico 7, Portugal 10, Iran 19, Angola 62 98 (Tough for Iran) Of the top 20, 16 made it throught to the Finals in Germany. Of those, only the over-rated USA 8, and Japan 15, Iran 19 and Croatia 20, will have any excuses for not getting past the Group stages. Highly-ranked nations who missed the Finals: Turkey 11, Denmark 13, Greece 17, URUGUAY 18; Cameroon 22, Ireland 23 Draw at: http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/06/en/w/schedule.html Map at: http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/06/en/w/team/index.html Rankings at: http://www.fifa.com/en/mens/statistics/index/0,2548,All-Nov-2005,00.html -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From lannet at lannet.com.au Sat Dec 10 10:32:27 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Sat Dec 10 10:32:44 2005 Subject: [LINK] OT: Germany 2006 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <439A140B.50706@lannet.com.au> For someone whose interest in ball games is strictly inversely proportional to the size of the ball (golf - yes, cricket - yes, union - maybe; league, footy, soccer - ho hum), perhaps someone might try to explain what the numbers mean - are they the numbers worn on the shirts? Roger Clarke wrote: > > Based on the positions of the teams on the table, the average for each > Group should be 783/8 = 98. So how easy and hard are the Groups? > > The Group of Death: > E Italy 12, Czech Rep. 2, USA 8, Ghana 50 72! > Although USA is rated far too high, Ghana is far too low > (Expectation: Italy and Czech) > > Easily the Second Most Competitive: > F Brazil 1, Japan 15, Croatia 20, AUSTRALIA 49 85 > Australia is under-rated, so it's worse than 85 suggests > If Uruguay had got there, the pots may have been different; > otherwise the total would have been a remarkably tiny 54 > (Brazil, and a lottery, leaning to Croatia) > > The Easiest Group (for the highly-placed teams, that is): > G France 5, Korea 29, Switzerland 36, Togo 56 126 > France is rated too high, Korea a bit low > (France and Korea) > > Other Easy Groups: > H Spain 6, Tunisia 28, Saudi 32, Ukraine 40 106 > (Spain, and anyone's guess, leaning to Ukraine, > always assuming Shevchenko doesn't get injured) > > B England 9, Sweden 14, Paraguay 30, Trinidad 51 104 > (no excuses for England and Sweden) > > Average Groups, c. 98 > A Germany 16, Costa Rica 21, Poland 23, Ecuador 37 97 > (Germany, plus the least-good last-16 team) > > C Argentina 4, Netherlands 3, Ivory Coast 41, Serbia 47 95 > (Even eternal arguers Holland can't muck this one up) > > D Mexico 7, Portugal 10, Iran 19, Angola 62 98 > (Tough for Iran) > > Of the top 20, 16 made it throught to the Finals in Germany. Of those, > only the over-rated USA 8, and Japan 15, Iran 19 and Croatia 20, will > have any excuses for not getting past the Group stages. > > Highly-ranked nations who missed the Finals: > Turkey 11, Denmark 13, Greece 17, URUGUAY 18; Cameroon 22, Ireland 23 > > > Draw at: > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/06/en/w/schedule.html > > Map at: > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/06/en/w/team/index.html > > Rankings at: > http://www.fifa.com/en/mens/statistics/index/0,2548,All-Nov-2005,00.html > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au Sat Dec 10 10:58:31 2005 From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee) Date: Sat Dec 10 10:58:42 2005 Subject: OT: what about ping-ping? (was Re: [LINK] OT: Germany 2006) In-Reply-To: <439A140B.50706@lannet.com.au> References: <439A140B.50706@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <20051209235831.GA12053@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> Howard Lowndes wrote: > For someone whose interest in ball games is strictly inversely > proportional to the size of the ball (golf - yes, cricket - yes, union - > maybe; league, footy, soccer - ho hum), On the subject of ball sizes, I blogged this not so long ago http://www.guardian.co.uk/china/story/0,7369,1572278,00.html They're teaching cricket to Chinese PE teachers, but it's a bit foreign to them: "I was a bit worried about the safety of my students when I saw how hard the ball was," said Wu Fei, a PE teacher at Beijing University. "It was very different from the ping-pong balls I am used to." Danny. ---------------------------------------------------------- http://dannyreviews.com/ - over eight hundred book reviews http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog ---------------------------------------------------------- From lannet at lannet.com.au Sat Dec 10 11:15:34 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Sat Dec 10 11:15:51 2005 Subject: OT: what about ping-ping? (was Re: [LINK] OT: Germany 2006) In-Reply-To: <20051209235831.GA12053@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> References: <439A140B.50706@lannet.com.au> <20051209235831.GA12053@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <439A1E26.6080601@lannet.com.au> Danny Yee wrote: > Howard Lowndes wrote: > >>For someone whose interest in ball games is strictly inversely >>proportional to the size of the ball (golf - yes, cricket - yes, union - >>maybe; league, footy, soccer - ho hum), > > > On the subject of ball sizes, I blogged this not so long ago > http://www.guardian.co.uk/china/story/0,7369,1572278,00.html > They're teaching cricket to Chinese PE teachers, but it's a bit > foreign to them: > "I was a bit worried about the safety of my students when > I saw how hard the ball was," said Wu Fei, a PE teacher at > Beijing University. "It was very different from the ping-pong > balls I am used to." OK, not "strictly" perhaps :) Reminds me of a story years back about a US youth watching a UK school team play rugger (as it used to be known) - we couldn't imagine how they could play it without any padding. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From gctaylor at netspace.net.au Sat Dec 10 14:12:46 2005 From: gctaylor at netspace.net.au (Greg Taylor) Date: Sat Dec 10 14:13:02 2005 Subject: [LINK] OT: Germany 2006 In-Reply-To: <439A140B.50706@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <20051210131246.715635@G03676> On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 10:32:27 +1100, Howard Lowndes wrote: >?For someone whose interest in ball games is strictly inversely >?proportional to the size of the ball (golf - yes, cricket - yes, >?union - maybe; league, footy, soccer - ho hum), You must be fanatical about marbles then ;-) > perhaps someone might try to explain what the numbers mean - > are they the numbers worn on the shirts? Maybe the number of years since the players last resided in the country they represent? Soccer is hours of boredom punctuated by the occasional spectacle. Each to his own, but after a year in which Link subscribers have been bombarded with endless ideological tripe, let's hope we can make 2006 a "religion free" year, in the widest sense of the word ;-) Greg From link at todd.inoz.com Sat Dec 10 14:27:27 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Sat Dec 10 14:36:07 2005 Subject: OT: what about ping-ping? (was Re: [LINK] OT: Germany 2006) In-Reply-To: <439A1E26.6080601@lannet.com.au> References: <439A140B.50706@lannet.com.au> <20051209235831.GA12053@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> <439A1E26.6080601@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051210142602.030ce298@wheresmymailserver.com> At 11:15 AM 10/12/2005, Howard Lowndes wrote: >Danny Yee wrote: >>Howard Lowndes wrote: >> >>>For someone whose interest in ball games is strictly inversely >>>proportional to the size of the ball (golf - yes, cricket - yes, union - >>>maybe; league, footy, soccer - ho hum), >> On the subject of ball sizes, I blogged this not so long ago >> http://www.guardian.co.uk/china/story/0,7369,1572278,00.html >>They're teaching cricket to Chinese PE teachers, but it's a bit >>foreign to them: >> "I was a bit worried about the safety of my students when >> I saw how hard the ball was," said Wu Fei, a PE teacher at >> Beijing University. "It was very different from the ping-pong >> balls I am used to." > >OK, not "strictly" perhaps :) > >Reminds me of a story years back about a US youth watching a UK school >team play rugger (as it used to be known) - we couldn't imagine how they >could play it without any padding. You know I once had to give a ten minute improvised impromptu speech about the inside of a ping pong ball in front of 1000 person audience. I think I was about 14 years old. I can't remember what I said for ten minutes, but I do know there was more laughter and hysterics from the audience than I was able to speak over them! So I agree with the Chinese PE teacher about the comparison :) Would have been hard to talk for ten minutes about the inside of a cricket ball. From link at todd.inoz.com Sat Dec 10 15:19:59 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Sat Dec 10 15:22:51 2005 Subject: [LINK] OT: Germany 2006 In-Reply-To: <20051210131246.715635@G03676> References: <439A140B.50706@lannet.com.au> <20051210131246.715635@G03676> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051210151734.03475760@wheresmymailserver.com> At 02:12 PM 10/12/2005, Greg Taylor wrote: >On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 10:32:27 +1100, Howard Lowndes wrote: > > For someone whose interest in ball games is strictly inversely > > proportional to the size of the ball (golf - yes, cricket - yes, > > union - maybe; league, footy, soccer - ho hum), > >You must be fanatical about marbles then ;-) Lawn Bowls might be good. Did Howard mention the mass of the ball in relation to it's size, or was size the only issue? ;) > > perhaps someone might try to explain what the numbers mean - > > are they the numbers worn on the shirts? > >Maybe the number of years since the players last resided in the country >they represent? Goodness, you mean the players aren't even in their country of representation? >Soccer is hours of boredom punctuated by the occasional spectacle. Much better than cricket :) >Each to his own, but after a year in which Link subscribers have been >bombarded with endless ideological tripe, let's hope we can make 2006 a >"religion free" year, in the widest sense of the word ;-) I challenge you to show where I've mentioned Religion in any of my postings! From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Sat Dec 10 16:53:32 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Sat Dec 10 16:53:32 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <439A0104.60804@lannet.com.au> References: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> <4399EDE6.6010907@ozemail.com.au> <439A0104.60804@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <439A6D5C.1080503@ozemail.com.au> > IMO its inherent insecurity will not be a deterrent to its wide > implementation. The media moguls are only interested in the primary > effect and are not bothered about the secondary effects. The attitude is, I am certain, correct. If, however, it could be demonstrated that you can't have this kind of DRM without compromising security, then you start to bump into consumer law. It's the old story: it might cost more to keep cockroaches out of soft drinks, but you still can't sell soft drinks with cockroaches in them! In the case of DRM, admittedly I need to give the topic more thought, but software such as Sony wants to install seems to me to have many problems which are incompatible with good security. A short list of things, with I presume technical gaps because this needs a week, not an hour. Sony-style DRM has to: 1) Detect the presence of, and contents of, the CD or DVD drive. 2) Detect the copy-owner's watermark. 3) Do this for all users on a machine - which means it has to have administrator access, and it has to be able to install itself with administrator access even if the user installing the software doesn't have that access. This means, in essence, DRM is an escalation-of-rights attack. 4) Create and enforce interactions between software which cannot be managed or controlled even by the administrator. 5) Create and enforce interactions between application software and system-level services which cannot be managed or controlled, even by the administrator 6) Create network communications which cannot be managed or controlled, even by the administrator. Finally, it's exposing system-level interactions to the outside world. All of these are instrinsically insecure. You can't say "my software can do whatever it pleases with no user control" on an even moderately secure system. And I think you could argue that these problems exist regardless of whether the DRM is "well written" or buggy. In a sense, the debate over Sony DRM "bugs" is a distraction from the real problem: DRM is insecure. Now: if you're deliberately putting cockroaches in the soft drink, aren't you close to the wrong side of consumer law? In the past, software companies have dodged consumer law, generally I guess behind the cover of the EULA. But when the installation includes activities of the software are not included in the EULA? Or when the activities fall outside any reasonable expectation of what the consumer might expect a product to do? Or when the activities of the software arguably fall foul of computer crimes legislation? How can a company then claim "we're legal, the user clicked Yes"? Comments or expansion welcome! RC From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Sat Dec 10 17:15:08 2005 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Sat Dec 10 17:15:19 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: MR60-05: Strong growth in broadband and mobile services in 2004-05, while fixed services decline References: <09243560011339166959512@optinmailserver.com> Message-ID: Begin forwarded message: > From: "Australian Communications & Media Authority" > > Date: 7 December 2005 11:51:35 AM > To: > Subject: MR60-05: Strong growth in broadband and mobile services in > 2004-05, while fixed services decline > Reply-To: broadcasting@acma.gov.au > > A large increase in broadband internet subscribers, continuing > strong growth in mobile services and a small but significant > decline in fixed services were among the telecommunications > industry highlights in the last financial year, according to the > Australian Communications and Media Authority's Telecommunications > Performance Report 2004-05. This is the first telecommunications > performance report issued by ACMA, continuing a series of annual > reports produced by its predecessor, the Australian Communications > Authority (ACA). http://www.acma.gov.au/ > ACMAINTER:STANDARD::pc=PC_100376. > phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Sat Dec 10 19:40:41 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Sat Dec 10 19:40:38 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: MR60-05: Strong growth in broadband and mobile services in 2004-05, while fixed services decline In-Reply-To: References: <09243560011339166959512@optinmailserver.com> Message-ID: <439A9489.5000106@ozemail.com.au> Nitpicking I know, but nearly all broadband (by subscriber count) is a fixed service. It's not an analogue PSTN service, but ADSL doesn't move around... ADSL quite neatly accounts for the decline in basic access lines. You don't need two lines for modem and phone any more. RC Antony Barry wrote: > > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: "Australian Communications & Media Authority" >> >> Date: 7 December 2005 11:51:35 AM >> To: >> Subject: MR60-05: Strong growth in broadband and mobile services in >> 2004-05, while fixed services decline >> Reply-To: broadcasting@acma.gov.au >> >> A large increase in broadband internet subscribers, continuing >> strong growth in mobile services and a small but significant decline >> in fixed services were among the telecommunications industry >> highlights in the last financial year, according to the Australian >> Communications and Media Authority's Telecommunications Performance >> Report 2004-05. This is the first telecommunications performance >> report issued by ACMA, continuing a series of annual reports >> produced by its predecessor, the Australian Communications Authority >> (ACA). http://www.acma.gov.au/ ACMAINTER:STANDARD::pc=PC_100376. >> > > phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au > mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au > > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Sun Dec 11 10:12:32 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Sun Dec 11 10:12:28 2005 Subject: [LINK] Falun Gong spam In-Reply-To: <20051205001146.GA17197@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> References: <20051205001146.GA17197@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <439B60E0.9040108@ozemail.com.au> I was feeling left out for a bit, because usually I get all the spam, but my copy finally arrived. I can't tell anything about the nature of the spammer, but looking at the header led me to yet another case of "there's a demand so we'll meet it regardless of anything": a spam-specialist DNS provider which advertises that it helps people get around their ISPs. RC Danny Yee wrote: >Is there any faster way for an organisation to lose respect and >support than by spamming all and sundry? > >| Subject: An Open letter to all Members of Parliament >| >| Dear Mailman, >| >| For your urgent attention. Please be aware that: >| * Over 6 million People Renounce the Chinese Communist Party membership >| (http://www.TheEpochTimes.com) > >Of course this could be a Chinese black-op, but I hardly think they'd >want to publicise the URLs being spammed, so I think this can be >safely blamed on Falun Gong or its supporters. > >Danny. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > http://dannyreviews.com/ - over eight hundred book reviews > http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog > ---------------------------------------------------------- > >_______________________________________________ >Link mailing list >Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > > > From brd at iimetro.com.au Mon Dec 12 13:29:30 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Mon Dec 12 13:29:45 2005 Subject: [LINK] A little sleuthing unmasks writer of Wikipedia prank Message-ID: <439CE08A.61C9A99F@iimetro.com.au> A little sleuthing unmasks writer of Wikipedia prank By Katharine Q. Seelye The New York Times Published: December 11, 2005, 10:35 AM PST News.com http://news.com.com/A+little+sleuthing+unmasks+writer+of+Wikipedia+prank/2100-1038_3-5990678.html?tag=nefd.top It started as a joke and ended up as a shot heard round the Internet, with the joker losing his job and Wikipedia, the online encyclopedia, suffering a blow to its credibility. A man in Nashville has admitted that, in trying to shock a colleague with a joke, he put false information into a Wikipedia entry about John Seigenthaler Sr., a former editor of The Tennessean in Nashville. Brian Chase, 38, who until Friday was an operations manager at a small delivery company, told Seigenthaler on Friday that he had written the material suggesting that Seigenthaler had been involved in the assassinations of John and Robert Kennedy. Wikipedia, a nonprofit venture that is the world's biggest encyclopedia, is written and edited by thousands of volunteers. Seigenthaler discovered the false entry only recently and wrote about it in an op-ed article in USA Today, saying he was especially annoyed that he could not track down the perpetrator because of Internet privacy laws. His plight touched off a debate about the reliability of information on Wikipedia--and by extension the entire Internet--and the difficulty in holding Web sites and their users accountable, even when someone is defamed. In a confessional letter to Seigenthaler, Chase said he thought Wikipedia was a "gag" Web site and that he had written the assassination tale to shock a co-worker, who knew of the Seigenthaler family and its illustrious history in Nashville. "It had the intended effect," Chase said of his prank in an interview. But Chase said that once he became aware last week through news accounts of the damage he had done to Seigenthaler, he was remorseful and also a little scared of what might happen to him. Chase also found that he was slowly being cornered in cyberspace, thanks to the sleuthing efforts of Daniel Brandt, 57, of San Antonio, who makes his living as a book indexer. Brandt has been a frequent critic of Wikipedia and started an anti-Wikipedia Web site in September after reading what he said was a false entry about himself. Using information in Seigenthaler's article and some online tools, Brandt traced the computer used to make the Wikipedia entry to the delivery company in Nashville. Brandt called the company and told employees there about the Wikipedia problem but was not able to learn anything definitive. Brandt then sent an e-mail message to the company, asking for information about its courier services. A response bore the same Internet Protocol address that was left by the creator of the Wikipedia entry, offering further evidence of a connection. A call by a New York Times reporter to the delivery company on Thursday made employees nervous, Chase later told Seigenthaler. On Friday, Chase hand-delivered a letter to Seigenthaler's office, confessing what he had done, and later they talked at length. Chase told him that the Seigenthaler name had come up at work and that he had popped it into a search engine and was led to Wikipedia, where, he said, he was surprised that anyone could make an entry. Chase wrote: "I am truly sorry to have offended you, sir. Whatever fame comes to me from this will be ill-gotten indeed." Seigenthaler said Brandt was "a genius" for tracking down Chase. He said he "was not after a pound of flesh" and would not take Chase to court. Chase resigned from his job because, he said, he did not want to cause problems for his company. Seigenthaler urged Chase's boss to rehire him, but Chase said that, so far, this had not happened. Chase said that as Brandt and the news media were closing in and he realized how much he had hurt Seigenthaler, he decided that stepping forward was "the right thing to do." Seigenthaler, founder of the First Amendment Center, said that as a longtime advocate of free speech, he found it awkward to be tracking down someone who had exercised that right. "I still believe in free expression," he said. "What I want is accountability." Jimmy Wales, who founded Wikipedia, said that the site would make more information about users available to make it easier to lodge complaints. But he portrayed the error as something that fell through the cracks, not a sign of a systemic problem. "We have to continually evaluate whether our controls are enough," he said. Entire contents, Copyright ? 2005 The New York Times. All rights reserved. -- We talked about the Internet and Wikipedia and how facts and history are being collectively created online. -- Joichi Ito Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Mon Dec 12 14:32:56 2005 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Mon Dec 12 14:54:28 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <439A6D5C.1080503@ozemail.com.au> References: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> <4399EDE6.6010907@ozemail.com.au> <439A0104.60804@lannet.com.au> <439A6D5C.1080503@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au: ... >In the past, software companies have dodged consumer law, generally >I guess behind the cover of the EULA. But when the installation >includes activities of the software are not included in the EULA? Or >when the activities fall outside any reasonable expectation of what >the consumer might expect a product to do? Or when the activities of >the software arguably fall foul of computer crimes legislation? How >can a company then claim "we're legal, the user clicked Yes"? I wonder if liability of software providers has advanced beyond where it appeared to me to sit in ... 1988: http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/SOS/PaperLiaby.html If any of the legally trained or informed on this list detect anything in that paper that's seriously misleading about how little risk software producers have of being found to be liable for anything, please let me know! -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Mon Dec 12 17:21:15 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Mon Dec 12 17:21:27 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: References: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> <4399EDE6.6010907@ozemail.com.au> <439A0104.60804@lannet.com.au> <439A6D5C.1080503@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <439D16DB.8060704@ozemail.com.au> Question: if software's not a "product" then is it a "service"? What liability would attach to it as a service? RC Roger Clarke wrote: > rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au: > ... > >> In the past, software companies have dodged consumer law, generally I >> guess behind the cover of the EULA. But when the installation >> includes activities of the software are not included in the EULA? Or >> when the activities fall outside any reasonable expectation of what >> the consumer might expect a product to do? Or when the activities of >> the software arguably fall foul of computer crimes legislation? How >> can a company then claim "we're legal, the user clicked Yes"? > > > I wonder if liability of software providers has advanced beyond where > it appeared to me to sit in ... 1988: > http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/SOS/PaperLiaby.html > > If any of the legally trained or informed on this list detect anything > in that paper that's seriously misleading about how little risk > software producers have of being found to be liable for anything, > please let me know! > From sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au Mon Dec 12 19:27:37 2005 From: sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au (Stephen Jenkin) Date: Mon Dec 12 19:27:46 2005 Subject: [LINK] Alcatel poaches NICTA exec Message-ID: http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,17512075%5E15317%5E%5Enbv%5E,00.html Alcatel poaches NICTA exec Chris Jenkins DECEMBER 09, 2005 AUSTRALIA'S IT research flag-bearer National ICT Australia has yet another senior position to fill following news of the imminent departure of chief operating officer Ric Clark. Mr Clark will leave NICTA to take up the post of chief technology officer at Alcatel in January. NICTA declined to make any comment on Mr Clark's departure or any potential replacement. A former managing director of Ericsson's research and development operations in Australia, Mr Clark has also been a director at several IT start-up ventures, Alcatel said in a statement. He will join the company as it prepares for work on Telstra's so-called next generation network. Telstra last month announced it had signed a memorandum of understanding with Alcatel for $3.5 billion worth of work on the project. NICTA has had numerous changes in its senior management in 2005. In August, Dr David Skellern took over as chief executive of the organisation for a 12-month term. He had been in the role in an acting capacity since May, replacing American Mel Slater, who returned to the US. NICTA chairman Neville Roach departed soon after Mr Slater, and was replaced by Neville Stevens. Alcatel has also recently shuffled its management, with Hilary Mine moving from the company's US operations to take over as Australian chief executive, replacing Andrew Young. Mr Clark brought to Alcatel a sound knowledge of the Australian market, its regulatory environment and technology development, Ms Mine said. ------------------------------------------------------------ Steve Jenkin, Unix Sys Admin 0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915) PO Box 48, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au http://www.tip.net.au/~sjenkin From lannet at lannet.com.au Mon Dec 12 19:30:26 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Mon Dec 12 19:30:45 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <439D16DB.8060704@ozemail.com.au> References: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> <4399EDE6.6010907@ozemail.com.au> <439A0104.60804@lannet.com.au> <439A6D5C.1080503@ozemail.com.au> <439D16DB.8060704@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <439D3522.1030402@lannet.com.au> I think the problem is that it's a licenced use of copyright material. rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > Question: if software's not a "product" then is it a "service"? What > liability would attach to it as a service? > > RC > > Roger Clarke wrote: > >> rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au: >> ... >> >>> In the past, software companies have dodged consumer law, generally I >>> guess behind the cover of the EULA. But when the installation >>> includes activities of the software are not included in the EULA? Or >>> when the activities fall outside any reasonable expectation of what >>> the consumer might expect a product to do? Or when the activities of >>> the software arguably fall foul of computer crimes legislation? How >>> can a company then claim "we're legal, the user clicked Yes"? >> >> >> >> I wonder if liability of software providers has advanced beyond where >> it appeared to me to sit in ... 1988: >> http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/SOS/PaperLiaby.html >> >> If any of the legally trained or informed on this list detect anything >> in that paper that's seriously misleading about how little risk >> software producers have of being found to be liable for anything, >> please let me know! >> > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From link at todd.inoz.com Mon Dec 12 20:29:27 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Mon Dec 12 21:05:51 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <439D3522.1030402@lannet.com.au> References: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> <4399EDE6.6010907@ozemail.com.au> <439A0104.60804@lannet.com.au> <439A6D5C.1080503@ozemail.com.au> <439D16DB.8060704@ozemail.com.au> <439D3522.1030402@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051212202856.0471e8c0@wheresmymailserver.com> Hey is the rootkit protected by copyright - meaning you can't reverse engineer it, hack it, or make copies and distribute it? Hmmm ;) At 07:30 PM 12/12/2005, Howard Lowndes wrote: >I think the problem is that it's a licenced use of copyright material. > >rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: >>Question: if software's not a "product" then is it a "service"? What >>liability would attach to it as a service? >>RC >>Roger Clarke wrote: >> >>>rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au: >>>... >>> >>>>In the past, software companies have dodged consumer law, generally I >>>>guess behind the cover of the EULA. But when the installation includes >>>>activities of the software are not included in the EULA? Or when the >>>>activities fall outside any reasonable expectation of what the consumer >>>>might expect a product to do? Or when the activities of the software >>>>arguably fall foul of computer crimes legislation? How can a company >>>>then claim "we're legal, the user clicked Yes"? >>> >>> >>> >>>I wonder if liability of software providers has advanced beyond where it >>>appeared to me to sit in ... 1988: >>>http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/SOS/PaperLiaby.html >>> >>>If any of the legally trained or informed on this list detect anything >>>in that paper that's seriously misleading about how little risk software >>>producers have of being found to be liable for anything, please let me know! >>_______________________________________________ >>Link mailing list >>Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >>http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > >-- >Howard. >LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people >-- >When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; >When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. >-- >Flatter government, not fatter government; >Get rid of the Australian states. > >_______________________________________________ >Link mailing list >Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > From lannet at lannet.com.au Mon Dec 12 22:01:17 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Mon Dec 12 22:01:33 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20051212202856.0471e8c0@wheresmymailserver.com> References: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> <4399EDE6.6010907@ozemail.com.au> <439A0104.60804@lannet.com.au> <439A6D5C.1080503@ozemail.com.au> <439D16DB.8060704@ozemail.com.au> <439D3522.1030402@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212202856.0471e8c0@wheresmymailserver.com> Message-ID: <439D587D.6010808@lannet.com.au> Considering that in most jurisdictions copyright is implicit - then Yes. Adam Todd wrote: > > Hey is the rootkit protected by copyright - meaning you can't reverse > engineer it, hack it, or make copies and distribute it? Hmmm ;) > > At 07:30 PM 12/12/2005, Howard Lowndes wrote: > >> I think the problem is that it's a licenced use of copyright material. >> >> rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: >> >>> Question: if software's not a "product" then is it a "service"? What >>> liability would attach to it as a service? >>> RC >>> Roger Clarke wrote: >>> >>>> rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au: >>>> ... >>>> >>>>> In the past, software companies have dodged consumer law, generally >>>>> I guess behind the cover of the EULA. But when the installation >>>>> includes activities of the software are not included in the EULA? >>>>> Or when the activities fall outside any reasonable expectation of >>>>> what the consumer might expect a product to do? Or when the >>>>> activities of the software arguably fall foul of computer crimes >>>>> legislation? How can a company then claim "we're legal, the user >>>>> clicked Yes"? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I wonder if liability of software providers has advanced beyond >>>> where it appeared to me to sit in ... 1988: >>>> http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/SOS/PaperLiaby.html >>>> >>>> If any of the legally trained or informed on this list detect >>>> anything in that paper that's seriously misleading about how little >>>> risk software producers have of being found to be liable for >>>> anything, please let me know! >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Link mailing list >>> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >>> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link >> >> >> -- >> Howard. >> LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people >> -- >> When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; >> When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. >> -- >> Flatter government, not fatter government; >> Get rid of the Australian states. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Link mailing list >> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link >> > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From link at todd.inoz.com Mon Dec 12 22:24:02 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Mon Dec 12 22:27:06 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <439D587D.6010808@lannet.com.au> References: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> <4399EDE6.6010907@ozemail.com.au> <439A0104.60804@lannet.com.au> <439A6D5C.1080503@ozemail.com.au> <439D16DB.8060704@ozemail.com.au> <439D3522.1030402@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212202856.0471e8c0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439D587D.6010808@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051212222337.02f4b2d0@wheresmymailserver.com> What if you had an automated program that reverse engineered the unauthorised software that was installed on your system? Now that's not mens rea :) At 10:01 PM 12/12/2005, Howard Lowndes wrote: >Considering that in most jurisdictions copyright is implicit - then Yes. > >Adam Todd wrote: >>Hey is the rootkit protected by copyright - meaning you can't reverse >>engineer it, hack it, or make copies and distribute it? Hmmm ;) >>At 07:30 PM 12/12/2005, Howard Lowndes wrote: >> >>>I think the problem is that it's a licenced use of copyright material. >>> >>>rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: >>> >>>>Question: if software's not a "product" then is it a "service"? What >>>>liability would attach to it as a service? >>>>RC >>>>Roger Clarke wrote: >>>> >>>>>rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au: >>>>>... >>>>> >>>>>>In the past, software companies have dodged consumer law, generally I >>>>>>guess behind the cover of the EULA. But when the installation >>>>>>includes activities of the software are not included in the EULA? Or >>>>>>when the activities fall outside any reasonable expectation of what >>>>>>the consumer might expect a product to do? Or when the activities of >>>>>>the software arguably fall foul of computer crimes legislation? How >>>>>>can a company then claim "we're legal, the user clicked Yes"? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>I wonder if liability of software providers has advanced beyond where >>>>>it appeared to me to sit in ... 1988: >>>>>http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/SOS/PaperLiaby.html >>>>> >>>>>If any of the legally trained or informed on this list detect anything >>>>>in that paper that's seriously misleading about how little risk >>>>>software producers have of being found to be liable for anything, >>>>>please let me know! >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Link mailing list >>>>Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >>>>http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link >>> >>> >>>-- >>>Howard. >>>LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people >>>-- >>>When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; >>>When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. >>>-- >>>Flatter government, not fatter government; >>>Get rid of the Australian states. >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Link mailing list >>>Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >>>http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > >-- >Howard. >LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people >-- >When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; >When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. >-- >Flatter government, not fatter government; >Get rid of the Australian states. > From cas at taz.net.au Mon Dec 12 22:45:58 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Mon Dec 12 22:46:10 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <439D587D.6010808@lannet.com.au> References: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> <4399EDE6.6010907@ozemail.com.au> <439A0104.60804@lannet.com.au> <439A6D5C.1080503@ozemail.com.au> <439D16DB.8060704@ozemail.com.au> <439D3522.1030402@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212202856.0471e8c0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439D587D.6010808@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <20051212114558.GV12961@taz.net.au> On Mon, Dec 12, 2005 at 10:01:17PM +1100, Howard Lowndes wrote: > Considering that in most jurisdictions copyright is implicit - then Yes. > > Adam Todd wrote: > >Hey is the rootkit protected by copyright - meaning you can't reverse > >engineer it, hack it, or make copies and distribute it? Hmmm ;) reverse engineering or hacking copyright software is not illegal and is not prohibited by copyrights. copyright prevents people from distributing unauthorised copies, it does not prohibit any kind of usage. the license terms (whether bogus shrink wrap or an actual signed contract) may or may not prohibit such activity, and such terms may (or most likely) may not be enforceable. in some contexts, reverse engineering is protected and may not be prohibited by license terms. this is especially true when the reverse engineering is being done for the purpose of interoperability - e.g. to reverse engineer a file format or comms protocol so that you can write a compatible program. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From lannet at lannet.com.au Tue Dec 13 06:54:27 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Tue Dec 13 06:54:53 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20051212222337.02f4b2d0@wheresmymailserver.com> References: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> <4399EDE6.6010907@ozemail.com.au> <439A0104.60804@lannet.com.au> <439A6D5C.1080503@ozemail.com.au> <439D16DB.8060704@ozemail.com.au> <439D3522.1030402@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212202856.0471e8c0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439D587D.6010808@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212222337.02f4b2d0@wheresmymailserver.com> Message-ID: <439DD573.9070807@lannet.com.au> The automated program is still under your control. You might have some mitigation if you didn't know that the reverse engineering software were installed. Adam Todd wrote: > > What if you had an automated program that reverse engineered the > unauthorised software that was installed on your system? > > Now that's not mens rea :) > > At 10:01 PM 12/12/2005, Howard Lowndes wrote: > >> Considering that in most jurisdictions copyright is implicit - then Yes. >> >> Adam Todd wrote: >> >>> Hey is the rootkit protected by copyright - meaning you can't reverse >>> engineer it, hack it, or make copies and distribute it? Hmmm ;) >>> At 07:30 PM 12/12/2005, Howard Lowndes wrote: >>> >>>> I think the problem is that it's a licenced use of copyright material. >>>> >>>> rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: >>>> >>>>> Question: if software's not a "product" then is it a "service"? >>>>> What liability would attach to it as a service? >>>>> RC >>>>> Roger Clarke wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au: >>>>>> ... >>>>>> >>>>>>> In the past, software companies have dodged consumer law, >>>>>>> generally I guess behind the cover of the EULA. But when the >>>>>>> installation includes activities of the software are not included >>>>>>> in the EULA? Or when the activities fall outside any reasonable >>>>>>> expectation of what the consumer might expect a product to do? Or >>>>>>> when the activities of the software arguably fall foul of >>>>>>> computer crimes legislation? How can a company then claim "we're >>>>>>> legal, the user clicked Yes"? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I wonder if liability of software providers has advanced beyond >>>>>> where it appeared to me to sit in ... 1988: >>>>>> http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/SOS/PaperLiaby.html >>>>>> >>>>>> If any of the legally trained or informed on this list detect >>>>>> anything in that paper that's seriously misleading about how >>>>>> little risk software producers have of being found to be liable >>>>>> for anything, please let me know! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Link mailing list >>>>> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >>>>> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Howard. >>>> LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people >>>> -- >>>> When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; >>>> When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. >>>> -- >>>> Flatter government, not fatter government; >>>> Get rid of the Australian states. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Link mailing list >>>> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >>>> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link >> >> >> -- >> Howard. >> LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people >> -- >> When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; >> When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. >> -- >> Flatter government, not fatter government; >> Get rid of the Australian states. >> > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From lannet at lannet.com.au Tue Dec 13 06:56:28 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Tue Dec 13 06:56:44 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <20051212114558.GV12961@taz.net.au> References: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> <4399EDE6.6010907@ozemail.com.au> <439A0104.60804@lannet.com.au> <439A6D5C.1080503@ozemail.com.au> <439D16DB.8060704@ozemail.com.au> <439D3522.1030402@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212202856.0471e8c0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439D587D.6010808@lannet.com.au> <20051212114558.GV12961@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <439DD5EC.9050400@lannet.com.au> Except where is is in conflict with the US DCMA, and since AUSFTA, who knows... Craig Sanders wrote: > On Mon, Dec 12, 2005 at 10:01:17PM +1100, Howard Lowndes wrote: > >>Considering that in most jurisdictions copyright is implicit - then Yes. >> >>Adam Todd wrote: >> >>>Hey is the rootkit protected by copyright - meaning you can't reverse >>>engineer it, hack it, or make copies and distribute it? Hmmm ;) > > > reverse engineering or hacking copyright software is not illegal > and is not prohibited by copyrights. copyright prevents people from > distributing unauthorised copies, it does not prohibit any kind of > usage. > > the license terms (whether bogus shrink wrap or an actual signed > contract) may or may not prohibit such activity, and such terms may (or > most likely) may not be enforceable. > > in some contexts, reverse engineering is protected and may not be > prohibited by license terms. this is especially true when the reverse > engineering is being done for the purpose of interoperability - e.g. to > reverse engineer a file format or comms protocol so that you can write a > compatible program. > > craig > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Tue Dec 13 07:15:06 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Tue Dec 13 07:15:14 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <439DD573.9070807@lannet.com.au> References: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> <4399EDE6.6010907@ozemail.com.au> <439A0104.60804@lannet.com.au> <439A6D5C.1080503@ozemail.com.au> <439D16DB.8060704@ozemail.com.au> <439D3522.1030402@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212202856.0471e8c0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439D587D.6010808@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212222337.02f4b2d0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439DD573.9070807@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <439DDA4A.7080002@ozemail.com.au> Howard Lowndes wrote: > The automated program is still under your control. You might have > some mitigation if you didn't know that the reverse engineering > software were installed. In the case of the Sony software, components were installed which weren't covered by the EULA. Even if someone tries to defend their malicious software with an EULA, software installed without a license can't then pretend to be covered under a license. Looking over the Sony story led me to investigate various licenses asssociated with copy-protection. The silliest thing I saw by far was from a UK company, Macrovision, which says it doesn't license the removal of its software. Had I ever used its stuff, or signed a license for it, then reformatting the hard drive would supposedly be in breach of the license. RC From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Tue Dec 13 08:26:25 2005 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Tue Dec 13 09:02:11 2005 Subject: [LINK] Spam Act Review Message-ID: An ad in the Oz IT Section today says that submissions re the 2-year review of the Spam Act are sought by 1 Feb 2006. Despite the ad referring to an Issues Paper, and pointing to the obvious place: http://www.dcita.gov.au/spam, there doesn't seem to be anything about the review up there yet. Given that this is a rare instance of balanced and constructive regulation in the public interest, not to mention a pre-cursor to getting a grip on tele-marketing, it's important that DCITA/OIE be provided with some support for the law. (Reviews are often a precursor to a backslide). The contact-point is mailto:spam.comments@dcita.gov.au or (02) 6271 1833 -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From lannet at lannet.com.au Tue Dec 13 09:18:37 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Tue Dec 13 09:18:59 2005 Subject: [LINK] Spam Act Review In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <439DF73D.3060103@lannet.com.au> Roger Clarke wrote: > > An ad in the Oz IT Section today says that submissions re the 2-year > review of the Spam Act are sought by 1 Feb 2006. > > Despite the ad referring to an Issues Paper, and pointing to the obvious > place: http://www.dcita.gov.au/spam, there doesn't seem to be anything > about the review up there yet. > > Given that this is a rare instance of balanced and constructive > regulation in the public interest, not to mention a pre-cursor to > getting a grip on tele-marketing, it's important that DCITA/OIE be > provided with some support for the law. (Reviews are often a precursor > to a backslide). I disagree about the "balanced and constructive regulation in the public interest". There only has to be a loud voice saying, wrongly, that the present laws aren't working (and they won't bother to differentiate between AU porn and OS porn) and there will be calls for even tighter and more unworkable laws. > > The contact-point is mailto:spam.comments@dcita.gov.au or (02) 6271 1833 > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From link at todd.inoz.com Tue Dec 13 09:49:51 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Tue Dec 13 09:53:17 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <439DDA4A.7080002@ozemail.com.au> References: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> <4399EDE6.6010907@ozemail.com.au> <439A0104.60804@lannet.com.au> <439A6D5C.1080503@ozemail.com.au> <439D16DB.8060704@ozemail.com.au> <439D3522.1030402@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212202856.0471e8c0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439D587D.6010808@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212222337.02f4b2d0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439DD573.9070807@lannet.com.au> <439DDA4A.7080002@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051213094120.04f70490@wheresmymailserver.com> At 07:15 AM 13/12/2005, rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: >Howard Lowndes wrote: > >>The automated program is still under your control. You might have some >>mitigation if you didn't know that the reverse engineering software were >>installed. > >In the case of the Sony software, components were installed which weren't >covered by the EULA. Even if someone tries to defend their malicious >software with an EULA, software installed without a license can't then >pretend to be covered under a license. Doesn't it? It's "part of the package" really. I'm arguing both ways here :) >Looking over the Sony story led me to investigate various licenses >asssociated with copy-protection. The silliest thing I saw by far was from >a UK company, Macrovision, which says it doesn't license the removal of >its software. Had I ever used its stuff, or signed a license for it, then >reformatting the hard drive would supposedly be in breach of the license. Hehehe Macrovision :) Oh here we go! I would say for the sake of argument that the licence goes into the realms of unfair and unconscionable or even restrictive in this instance and would be found to be severed under normal context of law :) One woudl be hard pressed to win an arguement that the end user was not permitted by the licence agreement to remove the software, especially if the licence agreement says that the end user is not permitted to run multiple copies but to remove the software from one machine for the use on another or even remove the software if they no longer agree with the agreement. BTW, it's also been determined that unless a party to an agreement has had the agreement explained to them specifically, the agreement is, unless it's extremely simple and clear, not able to be upheld - at least in Australia. This has become a strong hold argument against Mobile Phone and Cable network conduct where the consumer is "signed up" to an agreement that was not fully explained in detail and that they didn't read the agreement in fair time or with clarity or seek advice prior to signing. It's been found that most of these kinds of deals are now unenforceable. Even those door to door sales men, where you are pressured to sign an agreement for combined billing or such, if it is found that they told you their products were better or cheaper and the fact is not true it is severable. For example, electricity is electricity, and the various providers put power into the same grid. Therefore a sales man can not claim that their electricity is better than another providers - which has been happening in a region in Sydney of late. It was found that the salesman was pushing the point of better power, more stable power and that the consumers bill would be cheaper. However, when the consumer realised they were transferring their power bill to a new provider, and not just having their old provider selling them the power, they complained. Not only was the electricity a few cents more expensive, contrary to the promise, but the electricity was delivered on the same lines and grids as their original provider and was no less or more stable as it was "combined power" and not "uniquely provided individually." Gosh I'm a wealth of useless information! From link at todd.inoz.com Tue Dec 13 09:39:53 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Tue Dec 13 09:53:26 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <439DD573.9070807@lannet.com.au> References: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> <4399EDE6.6010907@ozemail.com.au> <439A0104.60804@lannet.com.au> <439A6D5C.1080503@ozemail.com.au> <439D16DB.8060704@ozemail.com.au> <439D3522.1030402@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212202856.0471e8c0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439D587D.6010808@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212222337.02f4b2d0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439DD573.9070807@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051213093244.031c89e8@wheresmymailserver.com> Hence that is my point. Isn't it the same for Anti-Virus software that would detect and remove the rootkit? It is breaching the copyright in being able to identify by signature and act specifically on the kit itself. I have control over that (if I installed Anti-virus software which I don't) and it's in effect doing the same thing, finding the copyright work, interpreting it, copying it to a quarantine and removing it from use - which would be a technical breach of the End User Licence agreement for the CD. So my automated "what is this, undo it and tell me" software doesn't act on my control. Anyway the Federal Court has already ruled on "software under control" and you're actions towards it when it decided that a posting I made to the Link list was not made to the PUBLIC persae as I had no control over the web based archiving system :) It decided hat the posting was made to a restricted and specific circle of interest persons who were specifically required to subscribe knowingly and individually. Therefore the publication to the wonder world was not in my control and I did not make the public publication. So in effect the ruling indicates to me that if you are not specifically doing the act, you can't be sued. I also draw to the District Court where the allegation was that I had sent a fax to someone. It was dismissed because there was no proof I pressed the buttons, or dialed the number, in fact the court said it could have been anyone, given the nature of my fax system being connected to the Internet and available for anyone in the world to use. Therefore I could not have committed a crime with mens rea as there was no evidence I had in fact carried out the act. (I didn't do it, but I have circumstantial evidence of what did happen, and possibly by whom.) So this all draws to an interesting convergence point in law :) Especially given that we have the Copyright Act that allows reverse engineering for the purpose of advancing national inventions, however the Free Trade Agreement prevents us from doing that to anything that has a copyright base from the USA. At 06:54 AM 13/12/2005, Howard Lowndes wrote: >The automated program is still under your control. You might have some >mitigation if you didn't know that the reverse engineering software were >installed. > >Adam Todd wrote: >>What if you had an automated program that reverse engineered the >>unauthorised software that was installed on your system? >>Now that's not mens rea :) >>At 10:01 PM 12/12/2005, Howard Lowndes wrote: >> >>>Considering that in most jurisdictions copyright is implicit - then Yes. >>> >>>Adam Todd wrote: >>> >>>>Hey is the rootkit protected by copyright - meaning you can't reverse >>>>engineer it, hack it, or make copies and distribute it? Hmmm ;) >>>>At 07:30 PM 12/12/2005, Howard Lowndes wrote: >>>> >>>>>I think the problem is that it's a licenced use of copyright material. >>>>> >>>>>rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Question: if software's not a "product" then is it a "service"? What >>>>>>liability would attach to it as a service? >>>>>>RC >>>>>>Roger Clarke wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au: >>>>>>>... >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>In the past, software companies have dodged consumer law, generally >>>>>>>>I guess behind the cover of the EULA. But when the installation >>>>>>>>includes activities of the software are not included in the EULA? >>>>>>>>Or when the activities fall outside any reasonable expectation of >>>>>>>>what the consumer might expect a product to do? Or when the >>>>>>>>activities of the software arguably fall foul of computer crimes >>>>>>>>legislation? How can a company then claim "we're legal, the user clicked Yes"? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I wonder if liability of software providers has advanced beyond >>>>>>>where it appeared to me to sit in ... 1988: >>>>>>>http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/SOS/PaperLiaby.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>>If any of the legally trained or informed on this list detect >>>>>>>anything in that paper that's seriously misleading about how little >>>>>>>risk software producers have of being found to be liable for >>>>>>>anything, please let me know! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>Link mailing list >>>>>>Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >>>>>>http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>-- >>>>>Howard. >>>>>LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people >>>>>-- >>>>>When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; >>>>>When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. >>>>>-- >>>>>Flatter government, not fatter government; >>>>>Get rid of the Australian states. >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Link mailing list >>>>>Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >>>>>http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link >>> >>> >>>-- >>>Howard. >>>LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people >>>-- >>>When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; >>>When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. >>>-- >>>Flatter government, not fatter government; >>>Get rid of the Australian states. > >-- >Howard. >LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people >-- >When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; >When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. >-- >Flatter government, not fatter government; >Get rid of the Australian states. > From link at todd.inoz.com Tue Dec 13 09:32:34 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Tue Dec 13 09:53:37 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <20051212114558.GV12961@taz.net.au> References: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> <4399EDE6.6010907@ozemail.com.au> <439A0104.60804@lannet.com.au> <439A6D5C.1080503@ozemail.com.au> <439D16DB.8060704@ozemail.com.au> <439D3522.1030402@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212202856.0471e8c0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439D587D.6010808@lannet.com.au> <20051212114558.GV12961@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051213093025.0310fa00@wheresmymailserver.com> At 10:45 PM 12/12/2005, Craig Sanders wrote: >On Mon, Dec 12, 2005 at 10:01:17PM +1100, Howard Lowndes wrote: > > Considering that in most jurisdictions copyright is implicit - then Yes. > > > > Adam Todd wrote: > > >Hey is the rootkit protected by copyright - meaning you can't reverse > > >engineer it, hack it, or make copies and distribute it? Hmmm ;) > >reverse engineering or hacking copyright software is not illegal >and is not prohibited by copyrights. copyright prevents people from >distributing unauthorised copies, it does not prohibit any kind of >usage. See this is where Craig, you are out of your depth again. Although the Australian Copyright Act might allow it, it is now superceded by the Free Trade Agreement which strictly and irrevocably denies such rights and is punishable by the convening of a USA biased court who will sue you and the government for their "losses." Sadly this is now in effect. The Australian Copyright Act allows only Australian copyright things to be reverse engineered as they aren't competitive with the USA products. So I shall return to my original question expecting the supposition from a more intelligent and knowledgeable person. (Ohhh I went below the belt!) I note on further reading that Howard as usually hits the nail on the head with his hammer, unlike you Craig who hits hit thumb. From cas at taz.net.au Tue Dec 13 10:32:40 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Tue Dec 13 10:32:51 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20051213093025.0310fa00@wheresmymailserver.com> References: <4399EDE6.6010907@ozemail.com.au> <439A0104.60804@lannet.com.au> <439A6D5C.1080503@ozemail.com.au> <439D16DB.8060704@ozemail.com.au> <439D3522.1030402@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212202856.0471e8c0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439D587D.6010808@lannet.com.au> <20051212114558.GV12961@taz.net.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051213093025.0310fa00@wheresmymailserver.com> Message-ID: <20051212233240.GW12961@taz.net.au> On Tue, Dec 13, 2005 at 09:32:34AM +1100, Adam Todd wrote: > Although the Australian Copyright Act might allow it, it is now superceded the copyright act does not allow it or disallow it because reverse engineering is not at all relevant to copyright. like many others you have been deluded by the 'intellectual property' disinformation campaign to think of copyrights (and patents) in the same way as actual property. copyrights are NOT the same as actual property. they are a set of limited term and very limited scope rights that grant a monopoly on copying & distribution. that's all. holding the copyright on something - whether a book or software - does not entitle you to dictate how or when a legitimate purchaser of your copyrighted work may use that work. just as you do not have the power to "license" your book to only be read on Tuesday afternoons, you do not have the power to prevent your software being used (or examined) in any particular way. that may be what the copyright industry are pushing for, but they don't have that power yet and it is a cretinously stupid mistake to concede it without a fight. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From lannet at lannet.com.au Tue Dec 13 10:35:12 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Tue Dec 13 10:35:29 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20051213093025.0310fa00@wheresmymailserver.com> References: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> <4399EDE6.6010907@ozemail.com.au> <439A0104.60804@lannet.com.au> <439A6D5C.1080503@ozemail.com.au> <439D16DB.8060704@ozemail.com.au> <439D3522.1030402@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212202856.0471e8c0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439D587D.6010808@lannet.com.au> <20051212114558.GV12961@taz.net.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051213093025.0310fa00@wheresmymailserver.com> Message-ID: <439E0930.9060909@lannet.com.au> Cool it guys. We don't want a slugfest... -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From cas at taz.net.au Tue Dec 13 11:43:30 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Tue Dec 13 11:43:44 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <439E0930.9060909@lannet.com.au> References: <439A0104.60804@lannet.com.au> <439A6D5C.1080503@ozemail.com.au> <439D16DB.8060704@ozemail.com.au> <439D3522.1030402@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212202856.0471e8c0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439D587D.6010808@lannet.com.au> <20051212114558.GV12961@taz.net.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051213093025.0310fa00@wheresmymailserver.com> <439E0930.9060909@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <20051213004330.GX12961@taz.net.au> On Tue, Dec 13, 2005 at 10:35:12AM +1100, Howard Lowndes wrote: > Cool it guys. We don't want a slugfest... i find it very offensive to be told to "cool it" when i already chose not to respond to our resident net.kook's insulting and provocative comments. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From brendansweb at optusnet.com.au Tue Dec 13 12:44:19 2005 From: brendansweb at optusnet.com.au (Brendan Scott) Date: Tue Dec 13 12:40:47 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <439DDA4A.7080002@ozemail.com.au> References: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> <4399EDE6.6010907@ozemail.com.au> <439A0104.60804@lannet.com.au> <439A6D5C.1080503@ozemail.com.au> <439D16DB.8060704@ozemail.com.au> <439D3522.1030402@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212202856.0471e8c0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439D587D.6010808@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212222337.02f4b2d0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439DD573.9070807@lannet.com.au> <439DDA4A.7080002@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <439E2773.8090203@optusnet.com.au> rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > Howard Lowndes wrote: > >> The automated program is still under your control. You might have >> some mitigation if you didn't know that the reverse engineering >> software were installed. > > > In the case of the Sony software, components were installed which > weren't covered by the EULA. Even if someone tries to defend their > malicious software with an EULA, software installed without a license > can't then pretend to be covered under a license. > > Looking over the Sony story led me to investigate various licenses > asssociated with copy-protection. The silliest thing I saw by far was > from a UK company, Macrovision, which says it doesn't license the > removal of its software. Had I ever used its stuff, or signed a license > for it, then reformatting the hard drive would supposedly be in breach > of the license. This confuses contract with licence. You can have either without the other. Software can be licensed even if "not covered by" the EULA. However, modifying restricted data (do you get a log in screen when you boot?) held in a computer without authority is a crime. I don't understand why no one is prosecuting Sony. No one seems to care. Brendan From lannet at lannet.com.au Tue Dec 13 13:06:13 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Tue Dec 13 13:06:40 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <439E2773.8090203@optusnet.com.au> References: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> <4399EDE6.6010907@ozemail.com.au> <439A0104.60804@lannet.com.au> <439A6D5C.1080503@ozemail.com.au> <439D16DB.8060704@ozemail.com.au> <439D3522.1030402@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212202856.0471e8c0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439D587D.6010808@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212222337.02f4b2d0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439DD573.9070807@lannet.com.au> <439DDA4A.7080002@ozemail.com.au> <439E2773.8090203@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <439E2C95.1060807@lannet.com.au> Brendan Scott wrote: > This confuses contract with licence. You can have either without the > other. Software can be licensed even if "not covered by" the EULA. > However, modifying restricted data (do you get a log in screen when you > boot?) held in a computer without authority is a crime. I don't > understand why no one is prosecuting Sony. No one seems to care. But is it "restricted data"? You have already "logged in" when you are confronted with the EULA. It strikes me that it is more a case of misrepresentation in as much as it does things that it didn't tell you it would do and that you were not given a chance to prevent. As for prosecutions, which is cheaper - pursuing this through the courts, or taking the PC down to the local store and getting it cleaned up. You can bet that ACCC won't make an issue out of it, it would be too costly with too much risk of losing. Most PC users have become so accustomed to the crap that rides with M$ that they consider it to be the norm. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From brendansweb at optusnet.com.au Tue Dec 13 13:50:11 2005 From: brendansweb at optusnet.com.au (Brendan Scott) Date: Tue Dec 13 13:46:41 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <439E2C95.1060807@lannet.com.au> References: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> <4399EDE6.6010907@ozemail.com.au> <439A0104.60804@lannet.com.au> <439A6D5C.1080503@ozemail.com.au> <439D16DB.8060704@ozemail.com.au> <439D3522.1030402@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212202856.0471e8c0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439D587D.6010808@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212222337.02f4b2d0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439DD573.9070807@lannet.com.au> <439DDA4A.7080002@ozemail.com.au> <439E2773.8090203@optusnet.com.au> <439E2C95.1060807@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <439E36E3.90603@optusnet.com.au> Howard Lowndes wrote: > > > Brendan Scott wrote: > >> This confuses contract with licence. You can have either without the >> other. Software can be licensed even if "not covered by" the EULA. >> However, modifying restricted data (do you get a log in screen when >> you boot?) held in a computer without authority is a crime. I don't >> understand why no one is prosecuting Sony. No one seems to care. > > > But is it "restricted data"? You have already "logged in" when you are Who knows? (not considered in cases yet) However, to me, the definition could be read to cover all data on a computer if you go through a log in to get to it. > confronted with the EULA. It strikes me that it is more a case of > misrepresentation in as much as it does things that it didn't tell you > it would do and that you were not given a chance to prevent. That is what makes the modification unauthorised. > As for prosecutions, which is cheaper - pursuing this through the > courts, or taking the PC down to the local store and getting it cleaned > up. You can bet that ACCC won't make an issue out of it, it would be > too costly with too much risk of losing. The cost of criminal prosecutions are borne by the government. > Most PC users have become so accustomed to the crap that rides with M$ > that they consider it to be the norm. From lannet at lannet.com.au Tue Dec 13 14:02:35 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Tue Dec 13 14:02:51 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <439E36E3.90603@optusnet.com.au> References: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> <4399EDE6.6010907@ozemail.com.au> <439A0104.60804@lannet.com.au> <439A6D5C.1080503@ozemail.com.au> <439D16DB.8060704@ozemail.com.au> <439D3522.1030402@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212202856.0471e8c0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439D587D.6010808@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212222337.02f4b2d0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439DD573.9070807@lannet.com.au> <439DDA4A.7080002@ozemail.com.au> <439E2773.8090203@optusnet.com.au> <439E2C95.1060807@lannet.com.au> <439E36E3.90603@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <439E39CB.80304@lannet.com.au> Brendan Scott wrote: > Howard Lowndes wrote: > >> >> >> Brendan Scott wrote: >> >>> This confuses contract with licence. You can have either without the >>> other. Software can be licensed even if "not covered by" the EULA. >>> However, modifying restricted data (do you get a log in screen when >>> you boot?) held in a computer without authority is a crime. I don't >>> understand why no one is prosecuting Sony. No one seems to care. >> >> >> >> But is it "restricted data"? You have already "logged in" when you are > > > Who knows? (not considered in cases yet) However, to me, the definition > could be read to cover all data on a computer if you go through a log in > to get to it. > >> confronted with the EULA. It strikes me that it is more a case of >> misrepresentation in as much as it does things that it didn't tell you >> it would do and that you were not given a chance to prevent. > > > That is what makes the modification unauthorised. > >> As for prosecutions, which is cheaper - pursuing this through the >> courts, or taking the PC down to the local store and getting it >> cleaned up. You can bet that ACCC won't make an issue out of it, it >> would be too costly with too much risk of losing. > > > The cost of criminal prosecutions are borne by the government. ...who will only take it on if there is a high profile, little risk of upsetting supporters, and a better than good chance of winning; the last thing governments want to do is stir the hornet's nest when they have egg on their face. > >> Most PC users have become so accustomed to the crap that rides with M$ >> that they consider it to be the norm. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From link at todd.inoz.com Tue Dec 13 15:15:58 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Tue Dec 13 15:20:44 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <20051212233240.GW12961@taz.net.au> References: <4399EDE6.6010907@ozemail.com.au> <439A0104.60804@lannet.com.au> <439A6D5C.1080503@ozemail.com.au> <439D16DB.8060704@ozemail.com.au> <439D3522.1030402@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212202856.0471e8c0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439D587D.6010808@lannet.com.au> <20051212114558.GV12961@taz.net.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051213093025.0310fa00@wheresmymailserver.com> <20051212233240.GW12961@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051213151059.04bc4d40@wheresmymailserver.com> >holding the copyright on something - whether a book or software - does >not entitle you to dictate how or when a legitimate purchaser of your >copyrighted work may use that work. Well there you go again. Just plain wrong. Music can be released and purchased by people for specific use. For example for use on a telephone system, for use in their shop, for private home use, for use at exhibitions. Rarely are "all rights" granted for the use of music, film or books in all situations. We licence our films for different situations given different terms. Some are for commercial distribution, others are for private home viewing, and specifically exclude jails, hospitals and other places. >just as you do not have the power >to "license" your book to only be read on Tuesday afternoons, you do >not have the power to prevent your software being used (or examined) in >any particular way. Of course you can licence it to be read only a Tuesday afternoon. However the issue is not whether you restrict it in that way, but whether you will enforce the right and prosecute it. I can't imagine any artist (writer, film maker, musician etc) who would put such a restriction on their work and try and enforce it. In fact many really like to have their work shared, even if some sales revenue is lost along the way. Better that the world enjoy it, than be restricted by the price tag. I refer to the Greatful Dead saga of recent days. >that may be what the copyright industry are pushing for, but they don't >have that power yet and it is a cretinously stupid mistake to concede >it without a fight. No, there is the Music and Film (big budget studio) industry and then there are the millions of independents who want their stuff out there and quite happy say "download it, make me a donation and give a copy to your friends." Big End -v- Little End. The human numbers win in the end, but one has to be persistent. From Fred.Pilcher at act.gov.au Tue Dec 13 15:39:14 2005 From: Fred.Pilcher at act.gov.au (Pilcher, Fred) Date: Tue Dec 13 15:39:24 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit Message-ID: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C7202200117@cal066.act.gov.au> Brendan wrote: > I don't understand why no one is prosecuting > Sony. No one seems to care. I understand that some prosecutions are going on in CA. Fred ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If you are not the intended recipient: Please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Tue Dec 13 16:07:24 2005 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Tue Dec 13 16:10:02 2005 Subject: [LINK] Re: Spam Act Review Message-ID: >Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 08:26:25 +1100 >An ad in the Oz IT Section today says that submissions re the 2-year >review of the Spam Act are sought by 1 Feb 2006. It's now all up there, at: http://www.dcita.gov.au/ie/spam_home/spam_act_review The Issues Paper is 59pp., 328KB -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From drose at nla.gov.au Tue Dec 13 16:13:31 2005 From: drose at nla.gov.au (Daniel Rose) Date: Tue Dec 13 16:13:41 2005 Subject: FW: [LINK] Sony's rootkit Message-ID: <3F8819281E85774CA6CE6F4FB842874F01FABF86@gimli.shire.nla.gov.au> > >However, modifying restricted data (do you get a log in screen >when you boot?) held in a computer without authority is a >crime. I don't understand why no one is prosecuting Sony. No >one seems to care. > Consider if the rootkit was placed on the CD master without the knowledge or consent of Sony by a "disgruntled employee". Would the consequences for that employee be serious? Why? Would the employee be charged with a crime against Sony or against the people who's computers he took over? So then, do we say it's ok for Sony to rootkit the computers, but not for an individual to do so? From lannet at lannet.com.au Tue Dec 13 16:47:51 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Tue Dec 13 16:48:10 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20051213151059.04bc4d40@wheresmymailserver.com> References: <4399EDE6.6010907@ozemail.com.au> <439A0104.60804@lannet.com.au> <439A6D5C.1080503@ozemail.com.au> <439D16DB.8060704@ozemail.com.au> <439D3522.1030402@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212202856.0471e8c0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439D587D.6010808@lannet.com.au> <20051212114558.GV12961@taz.net.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051213093025.0310fa00@wheresmymailserver.com> <20051212233240.GW12961@taz.net.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051213151059.04bc4d40@wheresmymailserver.com> Message-ID: <439E6087.5060308@lannet.com.au> Adam Todd wrote: > >> holding the copyright on something - whether a book or software - does >> not entitle you to dictate how or when a legitimate purchaser of your >> copyrighted work may use that work. > > > Well there you go again. Just plain wrong. > > Music can be released and purchased by people for specific use. For > example for use on a telephone system, for use in their shop, for > private home use, for use at exhibitions. Rarely are "all rights" > granted for the use of music, film or books in all situations. > > We licence our films for different situations given different terms. > Some are for commercial distribution, others are for private home > viewing, and specifically exclude jails, hospitals and other places. Exactly. Read the copyright statement on almost any DVD intended for home viewing and it expressly precludes bulk or public display. In fact many businesses are in breach of copyright when they put the local radio program onto their Music on Hold without paying a fee for doing so. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you want a system that works, just choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From lannet at lannet.com.au Tue Dec 13 16:48:37 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Tue Dec 13 16:48:55 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C7202200117@cal066.act.gov.au> References: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C7202200117@cal066.act.gov.au> Message-ID: <439E60B5.7070902@lannet.com.au> Pilcher, Fred wrote: > Brendan wrote: > >>I don't understand why no one is prosecuting >>Sony. No one seems to care. > > > I understand that some prosecutions are going on in CA. ...and TX I believe, and Italy. > > Fred > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. > If you are not the intended recipient: > Please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. > You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you want a system that works, just choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From cas at taz.net.au Tue Dec 13 17:50:39 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Tue Dec 13 18:13:22 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <439E6087.5060308@lannet.com.au> References: <439D16DB.8060704@ozemail.com.au> <439D3522.1030402@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212202856.0471e8c0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439D587D.6010808@lannet.com.au> <20051212114558.GV12961@taz.net.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051213093025.0310fa00@wheresmymailserver.com> <20051212233240.GW12961@taz.net.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051213151059.04bc4d40@wheresmymailserver.com> <439E6087.5060308@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <20051213065039.GY12961@taz.net.au> On Tue, Dec 13, 2005 at 04:47:51PM +1100, Howard Lowndes wrote: > Adam Todd wrote: > >>holding the copyright on something - whether a book or software - does > >>not entitle you to dictate how or when a legitimate purchaser of your > >>copyrighted work may use that work. > > > > > >Well there you go again. Just plain wrong. > > > >Music can be released and purchased by people for specific use. For > >example for use on a telephone system, for use in their shop, for > >private home use, for use at exhibitions. Rarely are "all rights" > >granted for the use of music, film or books in all situations. > > > >We licence our films for different situations given different terms. > >Some are for commercial distribution, others are for private home > >viewing, and specifically exclude jails, hospitals and other places. as ever, you are a moron Todd. you are confusing copyright with licensing. note also that you, as copyright holder, do NOT have carte-blance to dictate whatever terms you like - some terms are automatically void and unenforcable simply because they would be too unreasonable. since you're an unreasonable person and a net.kook to begin with, i'd expect that most of your terms would fall into that category. > Exactly. Read the copyright statement on almost any DVD intended for > home viewing and it expressly precludes bulk or public display. In > fact again, this is licensing, it is NOT copyright. also, note that it is a shrink-wrap license - and they are of extremely dubious enforcability as there is no opportunity to review the terms or even agree with them BEFORE purchase. if you're going to comment on something, at least make the effort to know what it is you're commenting on. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Tue Dec 13 18:43:21 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Tue Dec 13 18:43:26 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <439E2773.8090203@optusnet.com.au> References: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> <4399EDE6.6010907@ozemail.com.au> <439A0104.60804@lannet.com.au> <439A6D5C.1080503@ozemail.com.au> <439D16DB.8060704@ozemail.com.au> <439D3522.1030402@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212202856.0471e8c0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439D587D.6010808@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212222337.02f4b2d0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439DD573.9070807@lannet.com.au> <439DDA4A.7080002@ozemail.com.au> <439E2773.8090203@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <439E7B99.4030904@ozemail.com.au> Brendan, >> Looking over the Sony story led me to investigate various licenses >> asssociated with copy-protection. The silliest thing I saw by far was >> from a UK company, Macrovision, which says it doesn't license the >> removal of its software. Had I ever used its stuff, or signed a >> license for it, then reformatting the hard drive would supposedly be >> in breach of the license. > > > > This confuses contract with licence. You can have either without the > other. Software can be licensed even if "not covered by" the EULA. Ok - of the two of us, you have the legal brain and the training. How is it that: - software I didn't ask for, and - that was installed without my knowledge claim an enforceable license over how I use it? If, for example, I find an EXE on my system without permission, by what legal standing can the vendor say "now it's here, it's here forever"? Has this ever been tested? > However, modifying restricted data (do you get a log in screen when > you boot?) held in a computer without authority is a crime. I don't > understand why no one is prosecuting Sony. No one seems to care. There are some prosecutions. Texas, IIRC, is among the litigants. But in NSW, I can't see how this isn't a breach of the computer provisions of the crimes act (as amended, etc etc, read it on Austlii). Of course, in criminal spheres you need a complainant, and you need the police to decide that they're interested in taking action ... I don't know what standing the individual has to launch a court action making an accusation of criminal behaviour without involving the DPP. Thoughts? RC > > > Brendan > > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > From brendansweb at optusnet.com.au Tue Dec 13 22:41:26 2005 From: brendansweb at optusnet.com.au (Brendan Scott) Date: Tue Dec 13 22:37:58 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <439E7B99.4030904@ozemail.com.au> References: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> <4399EDE6.6010907@ozemail.com.au> <439A0104.60804@lannet.com.au> <439A6D5C.1080503@ozemail.com.au> <439D16DB.8060704@ozemail.com.au> <439D3522.1030402@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212202856.0471e8c0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439D587D.6010808@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212222337.02f4b2d0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439DD573.9070807@lannet.com.au> <439DDA4A.7080002@ozemail.com.au> <439E2773.8090203@optusnet.com.au> <439E7B99.4030904@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <439EB366.8070402@optusnet.com.au> rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > Brendan, > >>> Looking over the Sony story led me to investigate various >>> licenses asssociated with copy-protection. The silliest thing I >>> saw by far was from a UK company, Macrovision, which says it >>> doesn't license the removal of its software. Had I ever used its >>> stuff, or signed a license for it, then reformatting the hard >>> drive would supposedly be in breach of the license. >> >> >> >> >> This confuses contract with licence. You can have either without >> the other. Software can be licensed even if "not covered by" the >> EULA. > > > Ok - of the two of us, you have the legal brain and the training. How > is it that: - software I didn't ask for, and - that was installed > without my knowledge claim an enforceable license over how I use it? because you are confusing permission with obligation. The lack of a contract doesn't necessarily mean you don't have permission (it could be implied), but it may mean you don't have obligation. It also doesn't mean that they have permission, which is the criminality point. > If, for example, I find an EXE on my system without permission, by > what legal standing can the vendor say "now it's here, it's here > forever"? Has this ever been tested? > >> However, modifying restricted data (do you get a log in screen when >> you boot?) held in a computer without authority is a crime. I >> don't understand why no one is prosecuting Sony. No one seems to >> care. > > > There are some prosecutions. Texas, IIRC, is among the litigants. But > in NSW, I can't see how this isn't a breach of the computer > provisions of the crimes act (as amended, etc etc, read it on > Austlii). Of course, in criminal spheres you need a complainant, and > you need the police to decide that they're interested in taking > action ... I don't know what standing the individual has to launch a > court action making an accusation of criminal behaviour without > involving the DPP. Thoughts? s 308H http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fragview/inforce/act+40+1900+pt.6-sec.308h+0+N You would need to find someone against whom the crime was committed. Or you would need enough evidence of attempt. Anyone can start a criminal prosecution, but the DPP will take it over. I guess once you find a victim, you report it to the police. From lannet at lannet.com.au Tue Dec 13 23:28:34 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Tue Dec 13 23:28:53 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <439E7B99.4030904@ozemail.com.au> References: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> <4399EDE6.6010907@ozemail.com.au> <439A0104.60804@lannet.com.au> <439A6D5C.1080503@ozemail.com.au> <439D16DB.8060704@ozemail.com.au> <439D3522.1030402@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212202856.0471e8c0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439D587D.6010808@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212222337.02f4b2d0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439DD573.9070807@lannet.com.au> <439DDA4A.7080002@ozemail.com.au> <439E2773.8090203@optusnet.com.au> <439E7B99.4030904@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <439EBE72.2010601@lannet.com.au> rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > There are some prosecutions. Texas, IIRC, is among the litigants. But in > NSW, I can't see how this isn't a breach of the computer provisions of > the crimes act (as amended, etc etc, read it on Austlii). Of course, in > criminal spheres you need a complainant, and you need the police to > decide that they're interested in taking action ... I don't know what > standing the individual has to launch a court action making an > accusation of criminal behaviour without involving the DPP. Thoughts? What about a writ of mandamus. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you want a system that works, just choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From stephen at melbpc.org.au Wed Dec 14 00:39:57 2005 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley) Date: Wed Dec 14 00:40:20 2005 Subject: [LINK] Vic Gov responses to some e-democracy recommendations In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20051205100302.01d41028@fastmail.fm> References: <20051204125956.9AA0A13FEF@vscan41.melbpc.org.au> <20051204125956.9AA0A13FEF@vscan41.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <20051213134006.445016AE@vscan41.melbpc.org.au> At 10:27 AM 5/12/2005 , Tom Worthington wrote: > At 11:59 PM 12/4/2005, Stephen Loosley wrote: >> >> ... Government's responses to recommendations ... may seem disappointing. >> http://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/sarc/E-Democracy/Response_to_eDemocracy_Report.rtf > > It is a shame that the Victorian Government has put people to so much > trouble to so little effect. The message seems to be: if you want an IT > savvy environment, don't go to Victoria. Yes, and the image isn't right. It *is* true the Victorian Government is apparently content to dismiss any form of online-petition resource. (And so it's still cap in hand m'lord, here's a thousand signatures if you please :-( Queensland has a perfectly splendid parlimentary-petition site). And I agree Tom, as supported below, people are doing good work here in Victoria .. though there are also obvious e-government facilities which our current Vic Government would do better to consider. > This is a shame as there are people doing good work at Vision Australia > and Multimedia Victoria > . > > Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au > Visiting Fellow, ANU. Blog: http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/atom.xml Victoria Makes Plans Chris Jenkins DEC 13, 2005 VICTORIA has released its five year plan for the state's ICT industry, which includes a new procurement regime giving suppliers rights to the intellectual property they develop working on government contracts. Launching the Victorian ICT Industry Plan, 2005-2010, state ICT Minister Marsha Thomson said the state's IT industry was equal to or better than any in the world. "We have a lot to be proud of," she said. Changes to intellectual property provisions of whole-of-government procurement policies would encourage more innovation, the new policy says. "For the first time by an Australian government, these policies establish a default position for ICT contractors to retain ownership of intellectual property they develop under contract with the government," Multimedia Victoria said in a statement. The new plan would also minimise liability and insurance requirements for contractors dealing with government, and spend $1 million over three years growing technology clusters and links between organisations. Victoria has already become the Australian stronghold for Indian IT groups, claiming eight of the to 15 players. The state is also the centre of the Australian computer games industry, and the plan promises a government contribution to what it says will be state-of-the-art motion capture facilities for games developers and other digital media industries. Victoria's IT industry employs more than 70,000 has revenue in excess of $20 billion, and annual exports of $20 billion, the government said. -- Cheers, Tom Stephen Loosley Victoria, Australia From link at todd.inoz.com Wed Dec 14 01:27:10 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Wed Dec 14 01:30:07 2005 Subject: [LINK] Sony's rootkit In-Reply-To: <439EB366.8070402@optusnet.com.au> References: <4393E693.3030603@optusnet.com.au> <4399EDE6.6010907@ozemail.com.au> <439A0104.60804@lannet.com.au> <439A6D5C.1080503@ozemail.com.au> <439D16DB.8060704@ozemail.com.au> <439D3522.1030402@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212202856.0471e8c0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439D587D.6010808@lannet.com.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051212222337.02f4b2d0@wheresmymailserver.com> <439DD573.9070807@lannet.com.au> <439DDA4A.7080002@ozemail.com.au> <439E2773.8090203@optusnet.com.au> <439E7B99.4030904@ozemail.com.au> <439EB366.8070402@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051214012222.04b6e508@wheresmymailserver.com> >>>However, modifying restricted data (do you get a log in screen when >>> you boot?) held in a computer without authority is a crime. I >>>don't understand why no one is prosecuting Sony. No one seems to >>>care. DUH! Didn't think of that did I :) >>There are some prosecutions. Texas, IIRC, is among the litigants. But >>in NSW, I can't see how this isn't a breach of the computer >>provisions of the crimes act (as amended, etc etc, read it on >>Austlii). Of course, in criminal spheres you need a complainant, and >>you need the police to decide that they're interested in taking >>action ... The latter being the operative term. They tend to spend most of their time on non-event issues. (Excluding Sydney Riots #3) >>I don't know what standing the individual has to launch a >>court action making an accusation of criminal behaviour without >>involving the DPP. Thoughts? Yes, a citizen can commence a proceeding in the District or Supreme Court carrying charges under the Crimes Act. Pay your filing fee and court costs and away you go. I think it's $67 now. The only catch is, if you loose, you pay all the costs of the other party whereas if the prosecutor is the Government, then they pay no costs and the other party bears their costs (generally) This costs imbalance applies also to Civil Proceedings as well. This is designed as good governance to ensure that the Government doesn't pay costs. However if you sue the government and win, you can seek an assessor to determine your costs. Ok, I digress ... >s 308H >http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fragview/inforce/act+40+1900+pt.6-sec.308h+0+N > > >You would need to find someone against whom the crime was committed. Or >you would need enough evidence of attempt. Anyone can start a criminal >prosecution, but the DPP will take it over. I guess once you find a >victim, you report it to the police. No the DPP doesn't (generally) take it over. A recent case was that young female swimmer who took the coach to court on criminal charges - she lost. She paid the costs. The DPP did not take the case over. Perhaps contacting PICA or the Community Legal Centre might be of interest. Has anyone been affected by this process? You could be committing an offence to actually go out now and cause the crime to take place knowingly. From lannet at lannet.com.au Wed Dec 14 06:39:35 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Wed Dec 14 06:39:54 2005 Subject: [LINK] Emails inciting racial hatred in Sydney Message-ID: <439F2377.3070907@lannet.com.au> I received 3 this morning - you can report them on line at https://secure.nsw.gov.au/reporting_criminal_activity_online Make sure that you include full headers. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you want a system that works, just choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Wed Dec 14 07:36:18 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Wed Dec 14 07:36:30 2005 Subject: [LINK] Security Focus on The Register Message-ID: <439F30C2.1000103@ozemail.com.au> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/12/13/secfocus_popups/ This passage is, in particular, wonderful: > It's not only domestic situations worthy of Christoper Durang that > stress the importance of context and knowledge, but also language > itself. Robert Lane Greene published an excellent piece in Slate > titled "I'm Trying To Learn Arabic: Why's it taking so long?" that > contained a description that made me understand just why Arabic would > be very, very hard to learn. > > "Arabic is a VSO language, which means the verb usually comes before > the subject and object. It has a dual number, so nouns and verbs must > be learned in singular, dual, and plural. A present-tense verb has 13 > forms. There are three noun cases and two genders. Some European > languages have just as many forms to keep track of, but in Arabic the > idiosyncrasies can be mind-boggling. When Karam explains that numbers > are marked for gender - but most numbers take the opposite gender from > the word they are modifying - we students stare at each other in > slack-jawed solidarity. When we learn that adjectives modifying > nonhuman plurals always have a feminine singular form - meaning that > 'the cars are new' comes out as 'the cars, she are new' - I can hear > heads banging on the desks around me." > > When I read that, I thought "Arabic? That's Greek to me!" (actually, > that sounds more like something Denise would say), but then I realized > that most of the people I run into every day would find the kinds of > discussions we have on SecurityFocus - about computers, technology, > and security - pretty much as incomprehensible as the dialog between > Denise and I, or what Arabic is to Robert Lane Greene. Even the simple > stuff - like don't click on attachments, or don't accept strange > ActiveX controls, or update your anti-virus software - comes across > like adjectives modifying nonhuman plurals using the feminine singular > form: guaranteed to induce a "Huh?" or a glassy-eyed stare more than > understanding. > RC From sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au Wed Dec 14 10:57:27 2005 From: sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au (Stephen Jenkin) Date: Wed Dec 14 10:57:37 2005 Subject: [LINK] Emails inciting racial hatred in Sydney In-Reply-To: <439F2377.3070907@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: With all those SMS messages running around inciting riot, I was wondering if the Police can get to them. And if so. use them? - Which Police can order 'wiretaps'? AFP only or NSW? - Does sending an SMS's with 'exterminate the enemy' count as a crime? - Do mobile phone companies retain SMS messages? For how long? regards sj > I received 3 this morning - you can report them on line at > https://secure.nsw.gov.au/reporting_criminal_activity_online > > Make sure that you include full headers. > > -- > Howard. > LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people > -- > When you want a system that works, just choose Linux; > When you want a system that works, just, choose Microsoft. > -- > Flatter government, not fatter government; > Get rid of the Australian states. > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > Steve Jenkin, Unix Sys Admin 0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915) PO Box 48, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au http://www.tip.net.au/~sjenkin On Wed, 14 Dec 2005, Howard Lowndes wrote: From ivan.trundle at alia.org.au Wed Dec 14 11:06:22 2005 From: ivan.trundle at alia.org.au (Ivan Trundle) Date: Wed Dec 14 11:06:35 2005 Subject: [LINK] Emails inciting racial hatred in Sydney In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Responses from someone I know in the AFP who was discussing this matter earlier today (Stephen's questions are being asked by many, apparently): On 14/12/2005, at 10:57 AM, Stephen Jenkin wrote: > With all those SMS messages running around inciting riot, I was > wondering > if the Police can get to them. And if so. use them? Yes. And yes. > - Which Police can order 'wiretaps'? AFP only or NSW? Both. Either. > - Does sending an SMS's with 'exterminate the enemy' count as a crime? Yes. With recent legislation changes. Incitement to violence of any sort is now a crime, and the recent legislation was intended to cover this possibility (not just terrorists). > - Do mobile phone companies retain SMS messages? For how long? Her words "1-2 days for most telcos - AFP staff have been able to delve deeper from time to time. But you'd have to ask the telco concerned." > > regards > sj > >> I received 3 this morning - you can report them on line at >> https://secure.nsw.gov.au/reporting_criminal_activity_online >> >> Make sure that you include full headers. >> >> -- >> Howard. >> LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people > lannet.com.au> >> -- >> When you want a system that works, just choose Linux; >> When you want a system that works, just, choose Microsoft. >> -- >> Flatter government, not fatter government; >> Get rid of the Australian states. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Link mailing list >> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link >> > > > Steve Jenkin, Unix Sys Admin > 0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915) > PO Box 48, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA > > sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au http://www.tip.net.au/~sjenkin > > On Wed, 14 Dec 2005, Howard Lowndes wrote: > > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Ivan Trundle Manager, publishing and communications Australian Library and Information Association http://alia.org.au ivan.trundle@alia.org.au ph +61 2 6215 8232 fx +61 2 6282 2249 mobile +61 418 244 259 skype callto://ivanovitchk PO Box 6335 Kingston 2604 Australia From lannet at lannet.com.au Wed Dec 14 11:34:39 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Wed Dec 14 11:35:41 2005 Subject: [LINK] Emails inciting racial hatred in Sydney In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <439F689F.60701@lannet.com.au> I think the emails that I received would also come in under the new sedition provisions as they also incite the use of force against governments. Stephen Jenkin wrote: > With all those SMS messages running around inciting riot, I was wondering > if the Police can get to them. And if so. use them? > > - Which Police can order 'wiretaps'? AFP only or NSW? > - Does sending an SMS's with 'exterminate the enemy' count as a crime? > - Do mobile phone companies retain SMS messages? For how long? > > regards > sj > > >>I received 3 this morning - you can report them on line at >>https://secure.nsw.gov.au/reporting_criminal_activity_online >> >>Make sure that you include full headers. >> >>-- >>Howard. >>LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people >>-- >>When you want a system that works, just choose Linux; >>When you want a system that works, just, choose Microsoft. >>-- >>Flatter government, not fatter government; >>Get rid of the Australian states. >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Link mailing list >>Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >>http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link >> > > > > Steve Jenkin, Unix Sys Admin > 0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915) > PO Box 48, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA > > sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au http://www.tip.net.au/~sjenkin > > On Wed, 14 Dec 2005, Howard Lowndes wrote: > > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you want a system that works, just choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From link at todd.inoz.com Wed Dec 14 12:16:33 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Wed Dec 14 12:25:39 2005 Subject: [LINK] Emails inciting racial hatred in Sydney In-Reply-To: <439F689F.60701@lannet.com.au> References: <439F689F.60701@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051214121438.05108be0@wheresmymailserver.com> At 11:34 AM 14/12/2005, Howard Lowndes wrote: >I think the emails that I received would also come in under the new >sedition provisions as they also incite the use of force against governments. ROFL! Sounds like an Insurrection to me! I just wish people who were so hell bent on taking on the Government would do it in a constructive way rather than attacking the very people who would be their allies and who are not the government itself. At any rate, I haven't yet seen anything that promotes at attack on the Government (or the Opposition who attack the Government Seditiously in the Parliament every day of the week.) Love to see one of these email messages, however please don't forward it to me, you might be charged with incitement :) I'd suspect the messages if any have been sent to me are caught in my spam quarantine and with over 1000 messages in there, I'm not going to sift through them "for interest" sake. From link at todd.inoz.com Wed Dec 14 12:10:36 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Wed Dec 14 12:25:46 2005 Subject: [LINK] Emails inciting racial hatred in Sydney In-Reply-To: References: <439F2377.3070907@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051214120604.0510ae10@wheresmymailserver.com> At 10:57 AM 14/12/2005, Stephen Jenkin wrote: >With all those SMS messages running around inciting riot, I was wondering >if the Police can get to them. And if so. use them? Yes. >- Which Police can order 'wiretaps'? AFP only or NSW? Both. Depends on who is taking charge. I doubt the AFP will bother with this kind of situation generally speaking as the Commonwealth Laws are suitable transferred to the State and the State is rather active already. No point duplicating resources. They don't need to tap, they just need a subpoena. In fact with the new Terrorism laws they don't even need to identify a specific person, the can do a John Doe issue for the purpose of Pre-Discovery to identify whom the defendant is. >- Does sending an SMS's with 'exterminate the enemy' count as a crime? Yes, Criminal Code - use to be Section 85ZE, but its changed of recent to new numbering. >- Do mobile phone companies retain SMS messages? For how long? Now this is a debatable question. Apparently they only STORE messages until they are delivered and then delete them. There is no requirement to store SMS and MMS messages because if they can be delivered at the time of sending its like email in a mail spool - once it's gone it's gone, however if it's undeliverable it stays in the queue until delivered. Pager messages are stored, but not many people use them these days :) What they would do is load up a series of search terms and then when they were sent through the network, grab and log them. However, Echalon would be a much easier way to trace and log such events including the identification of exactly where the originator was at the time of sending the message. I noticed Echalon logs were used in a recent legal proceeding in Australia :) Transcripts of telephone calls were used by a Defendant in a proceeding to defend an allegation. From link at todd.inoz.com Wed Dec 14 12:14:28 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Wed Dec 14 12:26:06 2005 Subject: [LINK] Emails inciting racial hatred in Sydney In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051214121208.0510ab80@wheresmymailserver.com> >>- Does sending an SMS's with 'exterminate the enemy' count as a crime? > >Yes. With recent legislation changes. Incitement to violence of any >sort is now a crime, and the recent legislation was intended to >cover this possibility (not just terrorists). Um, but Johnny promised that the legislation was not to prevent citizens demonstrating their emotions and fears. It was specifically for Terrorist Acts by banned Terrorist Groups - he said to us he did. But yes, I totally agree all the laws invoked recently can apply to anyone at any time, including the media. If the media reports on incitement, that in it's own way is encouraging people who might think or support the incident to have knowledge of what to do, when and where. Therefore the media is contravening the law. But then we all know that law in Australia is discretionary as to whom it is applied upon and for what reasons. It just depends on who has the greater psychopathic tendencies in what role. From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Wed Dec 14 13:03:35 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Wed Dec 14 13:03:59 2005 Subject: [LINK] SMS tracking Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20051214130243.02224ec0@popa.melbpc.org.au> Just heard on local ABC radio that Vic Police have found one of the people here who is/was sending SMS racial attack messages and also that NSW police are investigating as well. Jan JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From link at todd.inoz.com Wed Dec 14 13:32:40 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Wed Dec 14 13:35:59 2005 Subject: [LINK] SMS tracking In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20051214130243.02224ec0@popa.melbpc.org.au> References: <6.0.3.0.0.20051214130243.02224ec0@popa.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051214133022.031ac420@wheresmymailserver.com> At 01:03 PM 14/12/2005, Jan Whitaker wrote: >Just heard on local ABC radio that Vic Police have found one of the people >here who is/was sending SMS racial attack messages and also that NSW >police are investigating as well. YEAH! One occasion I back the Authorities totally :) Not that this is in my backyard so much, but lets face it, the behavior and attitude is totally wrong. We don't need the French Riots being brought into Australia - which it appears is the case. Seems that everyone has forgotten the events only weeks ago in France which are identical to those happening here now. I also don't believe that the attack on the two young life guards was "spontaneous" or "incidental" I belive it was specially selected to create outrage and incite the problem. What target better for young people to select and react to than the Aussie Icon itself - the Life Saver at the Beach. From dlochrin at d2.net.au Wed Dec 14 14:51:19 2005 From: dlochrin at d2.net.au (David Lochrin) Date: Wed Dec 14 14:52:57 2005 Subject: [LINK] VoIP phone services Message-ID: <200512141451.19128.dlochrin@d2.net.au> Does anyone have any experience with domestic VoIP services such as Engin ? I'm about to make a tree-change to the Southern Highlands, but PSTN STD charges back to Sydney could be a problem. The Engin setup seems attractive - 10-cent flat-rate calls to anywhere in Australia with a monthly charge of $9.95, SIP technology, and two sampling rates. David From stephen at melbpc.org.au Wed Dec 14 15:10:20 2005 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley) Date: Wed Dec 14 15:10:44 2005 Subject: [LINK] SMS tracking In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20051214130243.02224ec0@popa.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <20051214041028.0C30C14011@vscan41.melbpc.org.au> At 01:03 PM 14/12/2005, Jan wrote: > Just heard on local ABC radio that Vic Police have found > one of the people here who is/was sending SMS racial attack > messages and also that NSW police are investigating as well. In future, they may have to be *really* quick investigations ... -- U.K. Company Offers Expiring Text Message Service By Jeremy Kirk, IDG News Service December 13, 2005 A U.K. company is capitalizing on the fear of disclosure of confidential text messages by offering a service that allows messages to expire and disappear in less than a minute. Staellium .. has been deluged with queries for the service, which went live on Saturday, and so far "thousands" have signed up, said Carole Barnum, chief executive officer, in a telephone interview on Tuesday. After downloading an applet using a WAP (Wireless Access Protocol) connection, SteathText can be used to send a SMS (Short Message Service) message. The recipients -- as long as they have a WAP-enabled mobile phone -- see a link to the message. A message sent in "stealth mode" disappears from a mobile about 40 seconds after it is viewed. While the message is deleted from the recipient's phone, the "paper trail" along with a log of the message stays on a secure server for a period of time. StealthText message are sold in bundles of 12 for ?5 ($8.78), according to a company press release. Although StealthText is only available now for U.K. SIM (Subscriber Identity Module) card users, within two weeks the service will be available in 10 European countries and eventually in the U.S. and Asia, Barnum said. -- Cheers, Jan .. Stephen Loosley us@netheaven.us From lannet at lannet.com.au Wed Dec 14 15:45:53 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Wed Dec 14 15:46:35 2005 Subject: [LINK] SMS tracking In-Reply-To: <20051214041028.0C30C14011@vscan41.melbpc.org.au> References: <20051214041028.0C30C14011@vscan41.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <439FA381.10608@lannet.com.au> ...disappears from the mobile != disappears from the carrier Stephen Loosley wrote: > At 01:03 PM 14/12/2005, Jan wrote: > > >>Just heard on local ABC radio that Vic Police have found >>one of the people here who is/was sending SMS racial attack >>messages and also that NSW police are investigating as well. > > > In future, they may have to be *really* quick investigations ... > > -- > U.K. Company Offers Expiring Text Message Service > By Jeremy Kirk, IDG News Service December 13, 2005 > > > > A U.K. company is capitalizing on the fear of disclosure of confidential text messages by offering a service that allows messages to expire and disappear in less than a minute. > > Staellium .. has been deluged with queries for the service, which went live on Saturday, and so far "thousands" have signed up, said Carole Barnum, chief executive officer, in a telephone interview on Tuesday. > > After downloading an applet using a WAP (Wireless Access Protocol) connection, SteathText can be used to send a SMS (Short Message Service) message. The recipients -- as long as they have a WAP-enabled mobile phone -- see a link to the message. A message sent in "stealth mode" disappears from a mobile about 40 seconds after it is viewed. > > While the message is deleted from the recipient's phone, the "paper trail" along with a log of the message stays on a secure server for a period of time. > > StealthText message are sold in bundles of 12 for ?5 ($8.78), according to a company press release. > > Although StealthText is only available now for U.K. SIM (Subscriber Identity Module) card users, within two weeks the service will be available in 10 European countries and eventually in the U.S. and Asia, Barnum said. > -- > > Cheers, Jan .. > Stephen Loosley > us@netheaven.us > > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you want a system that works, just choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Wed Dec 14 16:00:50 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Wed Dec 14 16:01:25 2005 Subject: [LINK] VoIP phone services In-Reply-To: <200512141451.19128.dlochrin@d2.net.au> References: <200512141451.19128.dlochrin@d2.net.au> Message-ID: <439FA702.4040309@ozemail.com.au> Quick thoughts: Engin recommends a 512K minimum ADSL service. It does, however, have one of the most comprehensive customer contracts in the VoIP industry, covering nearly everything suggested in ACIF's VoIP "fact sheet". It has also changed direction a little from its earlier "only network locked boxes" attitude. You can now "bring your own" broadband phone. It's taking the regulatory environment seriously, with the operation fallling under a carrier license (the license is catalogued under the old name, MiBroadband). Cheers, RC David Lochrin wrote: > Does anyone have any experience with domestic VoIP services such as Engin ? I'm about to make a tree-change to the Southern Highlands, but PSTN STD charges back to Sydney could be a problem. > > The Engin setup seems attractive - 10-cent flat-rate calls to anywhere in Australia with a monthly charge of $9.95, SIP technology, and two sampling rates. > >David >_______________________________________________ >Link mailing list >Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > > > From link at todd.inoz.com Wed Dec 14 16:02:21 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Wed Dec 14 16:05:30 2005 Subject: [LINK] SMS tracking In-Reply-To: <20051214041028.0C30C14011@vscan41.melbpc.org.au> References: <6.0.3.0.0.20051214130243.02224ec0@popa.melbpc.org.au> <20051214041028.0C30C14011@vscan41.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051214160132.031f48f8@wheresmymailserver.com> At 03:10 PM 14/12/2005, Stephen Loosley wrote: >At 01:03 PM 14/12/2005, Jan wrote: > > > Just heard on local ABC radio that Vic Police have found > > one of the people here who is/was sending SMS racial attack > > messages and also that NSW police are investigating as well. > >In future, they may have to be *really* quick investigations ... > >After downloading an applet using a WAP (Wireless Access Protocol) >connection, SteathText can be used to send a SMS (Short Message Service) >message. The recipients -- as long as they have a WAP-enabled mobile phone >-- see a link to the message. A message sent in "stealth mode" disappears >from a mobile about 40 seconds after it is viewed. Yes well, it's even easier and cheaper if you install bluepulse on your phone, sign up for unlimited internet use and have an MSN, ICQ or other address. The messages are GONE even faster! And they aren't logged! I freak so many people out when I'm on the road these days by using bluepulse, even going up to a persons desk and sending them a message from behind them! One day soon, this will again, be an ordinary behavior. From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Wed Dec 14 16:04:47 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Wed Dec 14 16:05:55 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: (-: Pacman Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20051214160440.021a7ec0@popa.melbpc.org.au> >http://www.lancs.ac.uk/sci-tech/?article_id=149 > >Mobile Gaming Technology Brings Pacman to Life >RFID tags bring Pacman into the real world > >Researchers in the Department of Communication Systems, based in >InfoLab21, have been developing a new game which can be played by up to >five players on mobile phones. > >Unlike traditional mobile phone games, this game takes place in real space >as well as on a mobile phone screen. Called Pac-Lan, in homage to the >arcade classic Pacman, the game enables players to keep track of one >another's position through images on their mobile phones as they chase one >another round campus. > >Dr Paul Coulton, head of mobile game development at Lancaster University, >said: "This game is using a traditional mobile phone game in a different >way by mixing the real and virtual world. Players move around in real >space interacting with one another, their environment and their mobile phone." >Each phone has been programmed with a maze, which is based on a map of the >University Campus. Players have to collect points from a series of Radio >Frequency Identification Tags, which have been attached to yellow disks on >lampposts around the University. > >When a player collects their points by holding their mobile phone against >the disc the virtual reality maze on each mobile phone is updated with the >player's position. Each player shows up as an animated character (Pac-Lan >or Ghost) moving round the screen. This enables a team of 'ghosts' to >track the player down and catch them. > >It is the first game in the world to use mobile phones equipped with Radio >Frequency Identification Tags. RFID tags are small devices - like >barcodes- which can transmit and receive data. JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From ivan.trundle at alia.org.au Wed Dec 14 16:11:51 2005 From: ivan.trundle at alia.org.au (Ivan Trundle) Date: Wed Dec 14 16:12:02 2005 Subject: [LINK] SMS tracking In-Reply-To: <439FA381.10608@lannet.com.au> References: <20051214041028.0C30C14011@vscan41.melbpc.org.au> <439FA381.10608@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <7DE6EA86-5293-4041-9CEC-9C70D1AE9E00@alia.org.au> I'll expand on that: ...disappears from the mobile != disappears from the device used to send, receive or store SMS != disappears from the carrier Too many people assume that a mobile phone is the only device used to send and receive SMS. I rarely use my mobile when I have access to a keyboard-enabled device to send and receive either via bluetooth, or even via websites. In all, there's plenty of scope to store the content of SMS enroute and at either end. iT On 14/12/2005, at 3:45 PM, Howard Lowndes wrote: > ...disappears from the mobile != disappears from the carrier > From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Wed Dec 14 16:42:20 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Wed Dec 14 16:42:40 2005 Subject: [LINK] SMS tracking In-Reply-To: <7DE6EA86-5293-4041-9CEC-9C70D1AE9E00@alia.org.au> References: <20051214041028.0C30C14011@vscan41.melbpc.org.au> <439FA381.10608@lannet.com.au> <7DE6EA86-5293-4041-9CEC-9C70D1AE9E00@alia.org.au> Message-ID: <439FB0BC.7010606@ozemail.com.au> Quite simple: since SMS is a store-and-forward medium, even a "TTL" for the *recipient* does not describe what happens in the network. RC Ivan Trundle wrote: > I'll expand on that: > > ...disappears from the mobile != disappears from the device used to > send, receive or store SMS != disappears from the carrier > > Too many people assume that a mobile phone is the only device used to > send and receive SMS. I rarely use my mobile when I have access to a > keyboard-enabled device to send and receive either via bluetooth, or > even via websites. > > In all, there's plenty of scope to store the content of SMS enroute > and at either end. > > iT > > On 14/12/2005, at 3:45 PM, Howard Lowndes wrote: > >> ...disappears from the mobile != disappears from the carrier >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > From link at todd.inoz.com Wed Dec 14 22:30:00 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Wed Dec 14 22:32:36 2005 Subject: [LINK] SMS tracking In-Reply-To: <7DE6EA86-5293-4041-9CEC-9C70D1AE9E00@alia.org.au> References: <20051214041028.0C30C14011@vscan41.melbpc.org.au> <439FA381.10608@lannet.com.au> <7DE6EA86-5293-4041-9CEC-9C70D1AE9E00@alia.org.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051214222933.03752dc8@wheresmymailserver.com> At 04:11 PM 14/12/2005, Ivan Trundle wrote: >I'll expand on that: > >...disappears from the mobile != disappears from the device used to >send, receive or store SMS != disappears from the carrier > >Too many people assume that a mobile phone is the only device used to >send and receive SMS. I rarely use my mobile when I have access to a >keyboard-enabled device to send and receive either via bluetooth, or >even via websites. > >In all, there's plenty of scope to store the content of SMS enroute >and at either end. Yeah? Well PLEASE! Tell me how to get my SMS and MMS messages OFF my Z1010 and into my trusty PC so I can keep them in a database or something! From link at todd.inoz.com Wed Dec 14 22:27:57 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Wed Dec 14 22:32:44 2005 Subject: [LINK] VoIP phone services In-Reply-To: <439FA702.4040309@ozemail.com.au> References: <200512141451.19128.dlochrin@d2.net.au> <439FA702.4040309@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051214222730.03752b38@wheresmymailserver.com> At 04:00 PM 14/12/2005, rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: >Quick thoughts: > >Engin recommends a 512K minimum ADSL service. It does, however, have one >of the most comprehensive customer contracts in the VoIP industry, >covering nearly everything suggested in ACIF's VoIP "fact sheet". Gawd, make sure you aren't on a Telstra DSL service then! Phone calls will cost you a fortune in traffic charges BOTH WAYS! From stephen at melbpc.org.au Thu Dec 15 00:15:37 2005 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley) Date: Thu Dec 15 00:15:56 2005 Subject: [LINK] SMS tracking In-Reply-To: <439FB0BC.7010606@ozemail.com.au> References: <7DE6EA86-5293-4041-9CEC-9C70D1AE9E00@alia.org.au> <20051214041028.0C30C14011@vscan41.melbpc.org.au> <439FA381.10608@lannet.com.au> <7DE6EA86-5293-4041-9CEC-9C70D1AE9E00@alia.org.au> Message-ID: <20051214131543.22E1A1409E@vscan41.melbpc.org.au> Yes and in this initiative, people are buying server space to store and specifically not forward their SMS messages. "StealthText is designed to prevent the forwarding or sharing of message by recipients, Barnum said .. A message sent in "stealth mode" disappears from a mobile about 40 seconds after it is viewed. While the message is deleted from the recipient's phone, the "paper trail" along with a log of the message stays on a secure server for a period of time. The recipient doesn't have access to the server, Staellium said." At 04:42 PM 14/12/2005, Richard wrote: > Quite simple: since SMS is a store-and-forward medium, even > a "TTL" for the *recipient* does not describe what happens in the > network. > > RC > > Ivan Trundle wrote: > >> I'll expand on that: >> >> ...disappears from the mobile != disappears from the device used to >> send, receive or store SMS != disappears from the carrier >> >> Too many people assume that a mobile phone is the only device used to >> send and receive SMS. I rarely use my mobile when I have access to a >> keyboard-enabled device to send and receive either via bluetooth, or >> even via websites. >> >> In all, there's plenty of scope to store the content of SMS enroute >> and at either end. >> >> iT >> >> On 14/12/2005, at 3:45 PM, Howard Lowndes wrote: >> >>> ...disappears from the mobile != disappears from the carrier >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Link mailing list >> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link >> >_______________________________________________ >Link mailing list >Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > From brd at iimetro.com.au Thu Dec 15 09:07:30 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Thu Dec 15 09:08:19 2005 Subject: [LINK] Vic govt ZAPPs largest open source project Message-ID: <43A097A2.EE9F01BE@iimetro.com.au> Vic govt ZAPPs largest open source project Rodney Gedda Computerworld 15/12/2005 07:28:11 http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php?id=1133441831&eid=-255 In what is believed to be the largest open source project ever developed in Australia, Victoria's Department of Sustainability and Environment (DSE) has spent the past two years and $1.2 million on a new content portal which will go live early next year. The Zope Amendment Production Platform, or ZAPP, is a repository for every planning scheme in the state, according to the project's manager Sharon Tyrer. ZAPP houses all documents relating to town planning schemes, and the legislative process that amendments, such as district re-zoning, go through. "We didn't have any systems for ZAPP [but] literally a manual system where we updated Word documents and burnt them to CD," Tyrer said. Presently, Lotus Notes is the DSE's preferred program for smaller applications and the management tracking system. "We did have Quickplace-based system called EDI but it didn't store planning schemes and had limitations on number of users so the system fell down. People stopped using it and went back to sending files through the post." As its name indicates, ZAPP is built on the Zope open source application server, which is developed with the Python programming language. Although at the forefront of open source software adoption by encouraging government-funded organizations like Multimedia Victoria and Open Source Victoria, the state's DSE has quietly been working on ZAPP for the past two years, despite some initial internal resentment. "The first business case was done in November 2000 which identified the need to develop a system to look after document flow," Tyrer said. "In 2001 we decided to go with Zope and it was a bit of a fight to get that through because we don't use much open source [so we] had to get it through IT." The DSE had contracted Zope Corporation to do the custom development but after performing an initial scope, the company pulled out of the local market in 2002. After going to tender, the DSE chose Melbourne-based open source service provider Obsidian as its development partner for ZAPP. "ZAPP takes everything through and stores it at each different legislative process and date-stamps everything at each point, taking snapshots of every planning scheme so people can look at how it has changed," Tyrer said. The project, going since 2003, will officially finish this week. The actual go-live date is set for February 2006 when over 800 planners and administrative staff across the state will access a repository of 82 300MB planning schemes and an amendment rate of 500 per year. "We literally went from nothing two years ago to quite a lot of open source technology here," Tyrer said. "The main programmers are using python, we also use a few other programs, like Kupu, for editing documents and generating PDFs." Overall, ZAPP comprises seven major open source applications and is hosted on Linux. Two new dual-core AMD Opteron systems will be purchased to host ZAPP when it goes live. "IT was trying to convince us to use the Notes platform but there was no way Notes could do it," Tyrer said. "Notes couldn't handle the workflow because the process is complex. It also couldn't handle the legislative documents [or] generate [those] documents accurately for us." In the absence of an off-the-shelf product for DSE's requirements, Tyrer said ZAPP had to be a custom solution. "Zope has no licence fees, is all Web based, and has so many benefits across the board," she said. "The licensing problem is a big one, but $1.2 million is quite cheap for what we have got." Despite the initial resentment from the IT department, Tyrer said both the previous and current CIOs have been "fantastically supportive" of the ZAPP project, which she hopes will be a beachhead for further deployments. "Open source is not as well received as I had hoped but it's building momentum," she said. "We're looking at extending open source usage [but] still have to deal with a few antiquated people that think if you don't have to pay for [something] it's no good." Tyrer said Zapp has "opened doors" as to what the DSE can do with software and is now getting the strategists together to develop a "cohesive IT plan". "It's a snowball effect and will replace the amendment tracking system [now] in Notes and hopefully take over online publishing of planning schemes," she said, adding the business cases for those projects are being developed. With funding approval, the DSE will develop planning schemes online for public access and integrate the Web site - which still requires manual updating - with Zapp by August next year. In keeping with the free software ethos, the DSE will also release ZAPP as an open source project "within reason" in August next year, making it available for download under the Obsidian licence. "ZAPP could be used for anything - anywhere there is content - as it publishes really well," Tyrer said. Tyrer praised Obsidian's work on ZAPP, describing it as "absolutely brilliant". "We are employing a small, growing company and sending money back into the state," she said. "It's a win-win situation and I don't think we could get it done any cheaper." So far Tyrer hasn't had any interest in ZAPP from the other states but said that should change once it is better understood. -- Never complain and never explain. -- Benjamin Disraeli Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From doug.moncur at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 16:55:53 2005 From: doug.moncur at gmail.com (doug moncur) Date: Thu Dec 15 16:56:00 2005 Subject: [LINK] scads of netscape 4.0 useragents ... Message-ID: Hello, here's a little puzzle. I've recently started managing a website for a Commonwealth body. Running AWstats I find that almost everyone contacting us uses Windows XP, although we have a few Mac users (both 9 and X) and the odd linux user and even odder OS/2 user. Fine. When I look at the browsers, based on useragent string, I see a different story. Only 68% is IE. The Safaris, Konquerors, Operas an Galeons probably come to around 5% and we have vanishingly few Firefox and Netscape 6,7,8 users, but around 21% of our users claim to be using Netscape 4.0. Well I don't believe that. Question is what are they running? Are they all running Firefox with the useragent string set to Netscape 4.0? Any ideas/anyone with similar experience? -Doug -- dgm@acm.org :: +61 4 3755 2545 ::

+61 2 6255 2545 From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au Thu Dec 15 17:08:01 2005 From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee) Date: Thu Dec 15 17:08:32 2005 Subject: [LINK] scads of netscape 4.0 useragents ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051215060801.GB12087@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> doug moncur wrote: > When I look at the browsers, based on useragent string, I see a > different story. Only 68% is IE. The Safaris, Konquerors, Operas an > Galeons probably come to around 5% and we have vanishingly few Firefox > and Netscape 6,7,8 users, but around 21% of our users claim to be > using Netscape 4.0. If you haven't done so already, try looking at the logs directly. My guess is that your stats program is somehow identifying all "Mozilla/5.0" agents as Netscape 4.0. 21% is a little on the high side for Firefox plus Netscape 6/7/8, but "vanishingly few" is most unlikely -- somewhere between 10% and 20% is what I expect, though my sites are a bit skewed. Danny. ---------------------------------------------------------- http://dannyreviews.com/ - over eight hundred book reviews http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog ---------------------------------------------------------- From darius at obsidian.com.au Thu Dec 15 19:56:48 2005 From: darius at obsidian.com.au (Kevin Littlejohn) Date: Thu Dec 15 19:56:58 2005 Subject: [LINK] Vic govt ZAPPs largest open source project In-Reply-To: <43A097A2.EE9F01BE@iimetro.com.au> References: <43A097A2.EE9F01BE@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <43A12FD0.6010506@obsidian.com.au> Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > Vic govt ZAPPs largest open source project > Rodney Gedda > Computerworld > 15/12/2005 07:28:11 > http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php?id=1133441831&eid=-255 That's our baby :) If anyone is curious about any of the story of how all this happened, feel free to contact me, I'll put you in touch with the relevant people. It's been a very rewarding and interesting project, and some of us have been itching to get the message out about it for a while now. As the article says, the whole workflow/document management/through-the-web editing system has been built using python and Zope here in Melbourne, to DSE specifications but with a view to releasing the whole thing as OSS when we're done. We used agile (XPish) project management and coding practices to manage the project scope over the past two years, very successfully - I think there's a few different stories in here, between dealing with govt, using agile methodologies on a decent sized project, ability for local talent to provide for large-scale development, OSS as a viable option... KevinL (just a _wee_ bit proud ;) From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Thu Dec 15 20:38:53 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Thu Dec 15 20:38:55 2005 Subject: [LINK] Vic govt ZAPPs largest open source project In-Reply-To: <43A12FD0.6010506@obsidian.com.au> References: <43A097A2.EE9F01BE@iimetro.com.au> <43A12FD0.6010506@obsidian.com.au> Message-ID: <43A139AD.9020703@ozemail.com.au> Kevin Littlejohn wrote: > Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > > Vic govt ZAPPs largest open source project > > Rodney Gedda > > Computerworld > > 15/12/2005 07:28:11 > > http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php?id=1133441831&eid=-255 > > That's our baby :) > > If anyone is curious about any of the story of how all this happened, > feel free to contact me, I'll put you in touch with the relevant > people. It's been a very rewarding and interesting project, and some > of us have been itching to get the message out about it for a while now. > > As the article says, the whole workflow/document > management/through-the-web editing system has been built using python > and Zope here in Melbourne, to DSE specifications but with a view to > releasing the whole thing as OSS when we're done. We used agile > (XPish) project management and coding practices to manage the project > scope over the past two years, very successfully - I think there's a > few different stories in here, between dealing with govt, using agile > methodologies on a decent sized project, ability for local talent to > provide for large-scale development, OSS as a viable option... > > KevinL > (just a _wee_ bit proud ;) Go right ahead. Humility is for people who *deserve* it! :-) RC > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > From dlochrin at d2.net.au Thu Dec 15 21:18:38 2005 From: dlochrin at d2.net.au (David Lochrin) Date: Thu Dec 15 21:21:22 2005 Subject: OFFLIST: Re: [LINK] Vic govt ZAPPs largest open source project In-Reply-To: <43A12FD0.6010506@obsidian.com.au> References: <43A097A2.EE9F01BE@iimetro.com.au> <43A12FD0.6010506@obsidian.com.au> Message-ID: <200512152118.38864.dlochrin@d2.net.au> Hi Kevin, If you have any documents describing the agile methodology used on this project I'd be most grateful if you sent one to me. An overview of the whole project would be nice, too, since it would place everything in perspective. I have a Part-Time Academic position at UTS (University of Technology, Sydney) and work in the Software Engineering Department. As you would be aware, meaningful experience with agile methodologies in large commercial projects is hard to come by! Cheers! David Lochrin -- On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 19:56, Kevin Littlejohn wrote: >Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > > Vic govt ZAPPs largest open source project > > Rodney Gedda > > Computerworld > > 15/12/2005 07:28:11 > > http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php?id=1133441831&eid=-255 > >That's our baby :) > >If anyone is curious about any of the story of how all this happened, feel free to contact me, I'll put you in touch with the relevant people. It's been a very rewarding and interesting project, and some of us have been itching to get the message out about it for a while now. > >As the article says, the whole workflow/document management/through-the-web editing system has been built using python and Zope here in Melbourne, to DSE specifications but with a view to releasing the whole thing as OSS when we're done. We used agile (XPish) project management and coding practices to manage the project scope over the past two years, very successfully - I think there's a few different stories in here, between dealing with govt, using agile methodologies on a decent sized project, ability for local talent to provide for large-scale development, OSS as a viable option... > >KevinL >(just a _wee_ bit proud ;) >_______________________________________________ >Link mailing list >Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > > -- David Lochrin +61 2 9363 1094 For PGP public key, send mail to: pgp-public-keys@keys.pgp.net subject: GET David Lochrin From dlochrin at d2.net.au Thu Dec 15 21:29:12 2005 From: dlochrin at d2.net.au (David Lochrin) Date: Thu Dec 15 21:30:47 2005 Subject: [LINK] Vic govt ZAPPs largest open source project In-Reply-To: <43A12FD0.6010506@obsidian.com.au> References: <43A097A2.EE9F01BE@iimetro.com.au> <43A12FD0.6010506@obsidian.com.au> Message-ID: <200512152129.12918.dlochrin@d2.net.au> Sorry, everyone, my preceeding email was supposed to be off-list! I should be more careful.... David From eleanor at pacific.net.au Thu Dec 15 21:32:19 2005 From: eleanor at pacific.net.au (Eleanor Lister) Date: Thu Dec 15 21:32:29 2005 Subject: [LINK] Vic govt ZAPPs largest open source project In-Reply-To: <43A139AD.9020703@ozemail.com.au> References: <43A097A2.EE9F01BE@iimetro.com.au> <43A12FD0.6010506@obsidian.com.au> <43A139AD.9020703@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <43A14633.2090105@pacific.net.au> good show, old bean! one presumes that the CMS is Plone? i know that Obsidian likes Plone, they are our host of choice for some Greens' sites ... very cool people ;) rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > Kevin Littlejohn wrote: > >> Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: >> > Vic govt ZAPPs largest open source project >> > Rodney Gedda >> > Computerworld >> > 15/12/2005 07:28:11 >> > http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php?id=1133441831&eid=-255 >> >> That's our baby :) >> >> If anyone is curious about any of the story of how all this happened, >> feel free to contact me, I'll put you in touch with the relevant >> people. It's been a very rewarding and interesting project, and some >> of us have been itching to get the message out about it for a while now. >> >> As the article says, the whole workflow/document >> management/through-the-web editing system has been built using python >> and Zope here in Melbourne, to DSE specifications but with a view to >> releasing the whole thing as OSS when we're done. We used agile >> (XPish) project management and coding practices to manage the project >> scope over the past two years, very successfully - I think there's a >> few different stories in here, between dealing with govt, using agile >> methodologies on a decent sized project, ability for local talent to >> provide for large-scale development, OSS as a viable option... >> >> KevinL >> (just a _wee_ bit proud ;) > > > Go right ahead. Humility is for people who *deserve* it! :-) > RC -- ------------ Eleanor Ashley Lister South Sydney Greens http://ssg.nsw.greens.org.au secretary@ssg.nsw.greens.org.au From brendansweb at optusnet.com.au Thu Dec 15 23:36:21 2005 From: brendansweb at optusnet.com.au (Brendan Scott) Date: Thu Dec 15 23:32:45 2005 Subject: [LINK] Volunteer encyclopedia as accurate as Britannica, journal says Message-ID: <43A16345.3090406@optusnet.com.au> http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/breaking_news/13408982.htm Wikipedia, the encyclopedia that relies on volunteers to pen nearly 4 million articles, is about as accurate in covering scientific topics as Encyclopedia Britannica, the journal Nature wrote in an online article published Wednesday. From lannet at lannet.com.au Thu Dec 15 23:45:14 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Thu Dec 15 23:45:35 2005 Subject: [LINK] Vic govt ZAPPs largest open source project In-Reply-To: <43A12FD0.6010506@obsidian.com.au> References: <43A097A2.EE9F01BE@iimetro.com.au> <43A12FD0.6010506@obsidian.com.au> Message-ID: <43A1655A.5040707@lannet.com.au> I have to say that the detail in your post and the original post are away over my head, and a more simplistic commentary will get it better accepted by the mail stream media, but well done all the same... Kevin Littlejohn wrote: > Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > > Vic govt ZAPPs largest open source project > > Rodney Gedda > > Computerworld > > 15/12/2005 07:28:11 > > http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php?id=1133441831&eid=-255 > > That's our baby :) > > If anyone is curious about any of the story of how all this happened, > feel free to contact me, I'll put you in touch with the relevant people. > It's been a very rewarding and interesting project, and some of us have > been itching to get the message out about it for a while now. > > As the article says, the whole workflow/document > management/through-the-web editing system has been built using python > and Zope here in Melbourne, to DSE specifications but with a view to > releasing the whole thing as OSS when we're done. We used agile (XPish) > project management and coding practices to manage the project scope over > the past two years, very successfully - I think there's a few different > stories in here, between dealing with govt, using agile methodologies on > a decent sized project, ability for local talent to provide for > large-scale development, OSS as a viable option... > > KevinL > (just a _wee_ bit proud ;) > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you want a system that works, just choose Linux; When you want a system that works, just, choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From stephen at melbpc.org.au Fri Dec 16 01:33:03 2005 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley) Date: Fri Dec 16 01:33:22 2005 Subject: [LINK] Machine Learning: algorithms that improve with experience. Message-ID: <20051215143308.5051613DD2@vscan41.melbpc.org.au> Three Technology Companies Join to Finance Research By JOHN MARKOFF NYTimes: Dec 15, 2005 BERKELEY, Dec. 12 .. University of California computer scientists plan to announce on Thursday that three companies - Google, Microsoft and Sun Microsystems - will underwrite a $7.5 million laboratory on the Berkeley campus. The Berkeley researchers say that under the terms of their agreement with the three companies, the fruits of the research will be nonproprietary and freely licensed. Each company has agreed to support the project for five years. "We're trying to sustain the broad vision, high-risk and high-reward research model," Mr. Patterson said of the new Berkeley effort. The research focus of the new center will be to apply advances in the use of statistical techniques in Machine Learning to web services - from maps to e-mail to online calendars - which have become an increasingly important part of the commercial Internet. Machine Learning is the study and application of computer algorithms that improve automatically through experience. "There is something quietly happening in machine learning that is going to result in a real revolution," said Greg Papadopoulos, Sun's chief technology officer. -- From Fred.Pilcher at act.gov.au Fri Dec 16 08:26:25 2005 From: Fred.Pilcher at act.gov.au (Pilcher, Fred) Date: Fri Dec 16 08:26:56 2005 Subject: [LINK] Vic govt ZAPPs largest open source project Message-ID: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C720220015A@cal066.act.gov.au> Kevin wrote: > That's our baby :) Congratulations to everyone involved, Kevin. I'll follow the story with great interest. Fred ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If you are not the intended recipient: Please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From darius at obsidian.com.au Fri Dec 16 10:35:11 2005 From: darius at obsidian.com.au (Kevin Littlejohn) Date: Fri Dec 16 10:35:41 2005 Subject: [LINK] Vic govt ZAPPs largest open source project In-Reply-To: <43A14633.2090105@pacific.net.au> References: <43A097A2.EE9F01BE@iimetro.com.au> <43A12FD0.6010506@obsidian.com.au> <43A139AD.9020703@ozemail.com.au> <43A14633.2090105@pacific.net.au> Message-ID: <43A1FDAF.9080306@obsidian.com.au> Eleanor Lister wrote: > good show, old bean! > > one presumes that the CMS is Plone? > > i know that Obsidian likes Plone, they are our host of choice for some > Greens' sites ... very cool people ;) Hehe. Funnily enough, we didn't use Plone for this (although we do for other, smaller, projects). The project itself involved replacing a current system where DSE stored all town planning schemes for Victoria in a series of word documents on disk, with something that would let them edit the text through the web, and manage workflow through the planning process through to minister's approval and final gazetting. We ended up building it pretty much from scratch, using Zope to store the documents in a _very_ broken down form (one object per paragraph, basically), creating structured documents from what was a big blob of word doc text. What we've ended up giving them is a highly structured way of managing their documents, with workflow for controlling who can make what changes built in. Just importing docs from word into a structured store was, um, interesting ;) I agree with Howard - it's a hard thing to describe without going into technical detail. Part of the challenge in this project was that DSE has a very particular way of dealing with these documents - a combination of the type of document they are, and the legal requirements around processes to update them. So, while Zope and python gave us a good head-start and made some aspects of the development much easier, we also had to build a lot from scratch to meet their requirements properly. There's not a lot out there that behaves this way for editing docs. Hopefully, when we get to releasing the code, it'll be useful to others for exactly that reason... KevinL From doug.moncur at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 10:37:18 2005 From: doug.moncur at gmail.com (doug moncur) Date: Fri Dec 16 10:38:07 2005 Subject: [LINK] scads of netscape 4.0 useragents ...] Message-ID: Good suggestion, but probably not the whole story. I only get this one of my servers, but the one that carries the most traffic. Despite the fact that this build of AWstats has been out for a few months there's no bug report for under/over reporting certain browsers, although there's a post on their forum from someone seeing a similar effect ... -Doug -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [LINK] scads of netscape 4.0 useragents ... From: Danny Yee Date: Thu, December 15, 2005 5:08 pm To: dgm@acm.org doug moncur wrote: > When I look at the browsers, based on useragent string, I see a > different story. Only 68% is IE. The Safaris, Konquerors, Operas an > Galeons probably come to around 5% and we have vanishingly few Firefox > and Netscape 6,7,8 users, but around 21% of our users claim to be > using Netscape 4.0. If you haven't done so already, try looking at the logs directly. My guess is that your stats program is somehow identifying all "Mozilla/5.0" agents as Netscape 4.0. 21% is a little on the high side for Firefox plus Netscape 6/7/8, but "vanishingly few" is most unlikely -- somewhere between 10% and 20% is what I expect, though my sites are a bit skewed. Danny. ---------------------------------------------------------- http://dannyreviews.com/ - over eight hundred book reviews http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog ---------------------------------------------------------- -- t: +61 2 6255 2545 | m: +61 4 3755 2545 From brd at iimetro.com.au Fri Dec 16 12:09:07 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Fri Dec 16 12:09:48 2005 Subject: [LINK] Australia reluctantly contributes to open source Message-ID: <43A213B3.75C02045@iimetro.com.au> Australia reluctantly contributes to open source By Munir Kotadia ZDNet Australia 16 December 2005 10:57 AM http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/soa/Australia_reluctantly_contributes_to_open_source/0,2000061733,39227911,00.htm Australian companies are not only lagging behind the United States and Asia when deploying Linux and open source software (OSS), they are also reluctant to contribute developer time back into the OSS community, according to a report by analyst group Forrester. Open source applications differ from their proprietary cousins because the underlying source code used to create an OSS application is freely available. OSS developers are encouraged to make improvements and fix bugs as long as they then share those changes with the rest of the open source community. Sam Higgins, senior analyst at Forrester in Australia and New Zealand, who authored a report on Australia and New Zealand's OSS adoption rates, told ZDNet Australia that he was "quite shocked" by the number of Australian companies that did not even consider allowing their developers to contribute back to open source projects. "I was quite shocked that some people said, 'no, we just don't do that'. The implication is that the quality and innovation in software is coming from outside Australia, which would be disappointing," said Higgins. Higgins explains that he found administrators had been "conditioned" into buying from, and relying on, large software vendors for all updates and bug fixes. "The problem that Australian firms have IT managers that are used to buying software. If they have a development manager that says, 'hey, I want to get involved in this [OSS] project', the administrator says, 'why do I need to contribute? That is what the vendor is for'," said Higgins. According to Higgins, this misunderstanding has come about because administrators still treat OSS software in the same way they treat commercial software, which can cause serious issues when dealing with newly discovered bugs and flaws. "What happens when [the administrator] finds a critical security flaw? A couple of guys I spoke to said 'we just look for the latest fix on the Web site'. What if there isn't one? And they responded: 'Well, we don't know what to do then'," said Higgins. [Administrators] need to organise themselves and stop treating OSS like commercial software when it isn't, he added. Australasian OSS adoption lags behind According to Higgins's report, which was published on Wednesday and compiled with responses from 125 IT decision makes from a range of government and industry sectors, OSS use in Australia and New Zealand is around three times lower than in the US. The report found that 16 percent of Australasian firms currently use Linux and OSS software with only 8 percent planning on moving systems away from proprietary software over the next year. The report also found that 77 percent of Australasian firms have no plans to adopt any Linux or OSS products over the next 12 months. -- Every man ought to contribute according to what he taketh to himself, and actually enjoyeth. -- William Petty Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From link at todd.inoz.com Fri Dec 16 12:49:10 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Fri Dec 16 12:53:38 2005 Subject: [LINK] Australia reluctantly contributes to open source In-Reply-To: <43A213B3.75C02045@iimetro.com.au> References: <43A213B3.75C02045@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051216124721.0304be80@wheresmymailserver.com> >Higgins explains that he found administrators had been "conditioned" into >buying from, and relying on, large software vendors for all updates and bug >fixes. > >"The problem that Australian firms have IT managers that are used to buying >software. If they have a development manager that says, 'hey, I want to get >involved in this [OSS] project', the administrator says, 'why do I need to >contribute? That is what the vendor is for'," said Higgins. Dat is because da siwwy admins are not technical in nature. Day are board jockies and disk switchers who dun noo how to write code or understand the concept of the code beyond dat of day point and cwick innerface. Ahhh sigh. And this is why I got out of the industry when I did. I got sick of being paid $20 an hour to write code and fix the messes of people who got paid $120 an hour to push disks in a drive slot. From link at todd.inoz.com Fri Dec 16 12:35:37 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Fri Dec 16 12:53:48 2005 Subject: [LINK] Vic govt ZAPPs largest open source project In-Reply-To: <43A12FD0.6010506@obsidian.com.au> References: <43A097A2.EE9F01BE@iimetro.com.au> <43A12FD0.6010506@obsidian.com.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051216122454.064fe460@wheresmymailserver.com> At 07:56 PM 15/12/2005, Kevin Littlejohn wrote: >Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > > Vic govt ZAPPs largest open source project > > Rodney Gedda > > Computerworld > > 15/12/2005 07:28:11 > > http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php?id=1133441831&eid=-255 > >That's our baby :) I'd be ducking my head if I were you. Proclaiming audaciously a proudness to using an open source missmash of applications that were never designed to work together through anything but desperate need to link is just not an acceptable use of Tax Payer Money. A better, faster, and far cheaper solution would have been through the purchase of Macroslut Office suites and Servers. This would clearly provide a low cost per seat licence as every end user, including those over the Internet would require a licence fee to be paid at about $299 per user connection. TO avoid limiting the number of users through pre-paid licences, our new Macroslut Licence and Application Management Application monitors the number of simultaneous users, reports any excess to Macroslut where we then debit your account. Credit Card accounts attract a 6.5% additional administration fee. Direct Debit accounts will receive a $0.50 credit. Macroslut does not accept cash. Development time would have been reduced dramatically saving several million dollars from the projects development budget as everyone would be able to use Macroslut Alphabet to create documents to publish to the web. Point, Drag, Drop and click is all that is required. This would save the many designers RSI through constant keyboard clicking and allowed a greater number of people to develop the resource. It is also my understanding that Johnny Howard proclaimed Australia to be a total Macroslut site, without limitation to boundaries, States or seditious mobs. Under the Free Trade Agreement, we consider that the use of other, lesser applications if a contravention of the FTA and as rightly entitled we seek compensation from you and your Government for the loss of licence, revenue and public status. I understand Australia has over 20 million people, who could potential use this newly deployed service and at $299 per seat we will be demanding a compensation payment of US$5,980,000,000,000 within seven days. We thank you for not choosing Macroslut as it saves us dealing with your endless influx of silly support question like "Why does my software always crash." The answer is always the same, buy a Zbox to run your applications. We still get paid under the FTA, so you really are wasting your efforts and time to beat around our Bush. From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Fri Dec 16 15:40:28 2005 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Fri Dec 16 15:43:47 2005 Subject: [LINK] RFC: Paper on Google's Challenges to the Law Message-ID: Constructively negative feedback gratefully accepted! Gurgle - The Turmoil Induced by a Search-Engine http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/II/Gurgle0512.html Abstract Google began as yet another search-engine. Its owners have found a successful business model, have established additional lines of business, and have achieved quite dramatic growth and profitability. The now multi-facetted Google corporation is a 'newly big business', and is forthrightly challenging both 'old big business', and copyright, competition, consumer and privacy laws. -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Fri Dec 16 20:13:44 2005 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Fri Dec 16 20:13:54 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: MR 65/2005: ACMA proposes new number range for VoIP services References: <08167050011347107526713@optinmailserver.com> Message-ID: <423A57A1-623E-4B21-A5BC-F8FC6CBBEE5C@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Begin forwarded message: > From: "Australian Communications & Media Authority" > > Date: 16 December 2005 4:25:52 PM > To: > Subject: MR 65/2005: ACMA proposes new number range for VoIP services > Reply-To: publishing@acma.gov.au > > > The Australian Communications and Media Authority is proposing > changes to the Telecommunications Numbering Plan to accommodate > voice over internet protocol (VoIP) services. > > To view the full release, visit http://www.acma.gov.au/ > ACMAINTER:STANDARD::pc=PC_100390 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------- > UNSUBSCRIBE INFORMATION > This email was sent to tony@tony-barry.emu.id.au, by
Mailing > list manager. > To opt-out of any future messages, please use the url below:- > http://elmn.com/?0056311701595tony@tony-barry.emu.id.au > We will respect your decision to receive no further emails from us. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------- > > phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From jmorris at namei.org Sat Dec 17 03:45:26 2005 From: jmorris at namei.org (James Morris) Date: Sat Dec 17 03:45:44 2005 Subject: [LINK] Australia reluctantly contributes to open source In-Reply-To: <43A213B3.75C02045@iimetro.com.au> References: <43A213B3.75C02045@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: One of the problems with this article is the assumption that FOSS involvement is driven by and dependent on companies, rather than individuals. In fact, Australia is highly over-represented in terms of FOSS community involvement, independently of support from companies (which I agree is almost non-existent, of course). - James -- James Morris From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Sat Dec 17 08:47:24 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Sat Dec 17 08:47:23 2005 Subject: [LINK] eBay under fire Message-ID: <43A335EC.6060707@ozemail.com.au> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4533154.stm Excerpt: >In an interview with Radio 5 Live, eBay would not reveal exactly how many accounts >had been hijacked, although a company spokesman refused to deny that possibly tens of >thousands had been compromised. [snip] >The hijacking of sellers' accounts is a particularly sensitive issue for the auction site, which relies to a large >degree on the level of trust between the buyer and seller of goods for its success. There are more than three >million items for sale on the site at any one time. >eBay blames its account holders for not installing proper security on their home computers and for replying >to so-called "phishing" emails. >These are fake emails made to look like official eBay messages and which demand the secret passwords >to users accounts. >Viruses are also said to be infecting home computers by installing themselves inside hard drives, where they >monitor the keystrokes of eBay users, make a record of passwords before sending them onto the fraudsters. *>'Nothing to do with us'* >Describing the problem as an "off eBay" issue, Mr Griffiths said the problem was "nothing to do with us". RC From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Sat Dec 17 09:11:20 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Sat Dec 17 09:11:21 2005 Subject: [LINK] RFC: Paper on Google's Challenges to the Law In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43A33B88.2040607@ozemail.com.au> Roger, Regarding this: > A further service that might later migrate into this cluster is Google Desktop . This is Google's version of >a tool to provide search capabilities across the user's own storage . Such features have previously been >provided on Macintoshes, but not yet by Microsoft for the dominant Wintel workstation environments. >At least at present, Google Desktop appears to run entirely on the user's own machine, without any >linkage out to Google's site. Data about its users therefore appears to be currently unavailable to Google. Hmm. In as much as Google Desktop is a third-party application, it's fair to equate its existence with other third-party applications for local indexing. I am able to verify a heritage of local text indexing that stretches at least 17 years, because that's the age of my oldest copy of the ISYS index. Another Google Desktop point; while the recent vulnerability was "inherited" (from Internet Explorer) rather than Google's vulnerability, "a Google that knows more about you" seems to be careless of the risks users are taking to serve Google's corporate aims. > Google's Gmail repesents the extremity of untrustworthiness in email-provision. I agree. I wonder if there isn't a further back alley to explore re Gmail; can Gmail indexing (used to provide the targeted advertisements) relate in any way to the Google cookie? Late in the article you refer to the data available to Google. I think you will find that as well as the Google Cookie, there is an Orkut Cookie containing rather more information. A Google Desktop user has conveniently created an index which can include both cookies... I long ago stopped listening to the "without doing evil" rhetoric... It's a line which these days only appears when fanzine-style articles want to remind us that Google is the vanguard of Web 2.0 ... RC Roger Clarke wrote: > > Constructively negative feedback gratefully accepted! > > > Gurgle - The Turmoil Induced by a Search-Engine > http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/II/Gurgle0512.html > > Abstract > > Google began as yet another search-engine. Its owners have found a > successful business model, have established additional lines of > business, and have achieved quite dramatic growth and profitability. > The now multi-facetted Google corporation is a 'newly big business', > and is forthrightly challenging both 'old big business', and > copyright, competition, consumer and privacy laws. > From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Sat Dec 17 10:10:21 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Sat Dec 17 10:10:17 2005 Subject: [LINK] More on cookies... Message-ID: <43A3495D.5020703@ozemail.com.au> ...I did a little wander around the Cookies list in Firefox (version 1.07, I haven't run the 1.5 upgrade yet), and find this little odditiy: a cookie apparently setting itself "against the rules" and without visiting the site. First, the startup state: when I launch FF, the only cookies in the "View Cookies" list (Tools - Options - Privacy) come from my bank. It's allowed to set cookies as an exception. 2) Visiting a benign site (like Roger's), the cookie list remains unchanged. 3) Next I visit Google. I've got the Google Cookie blocked. This is verified in "View Cookies" - the list is unchanged. 4) Next, I search for Ethernet (the reason I chose Ethernet is that it's just the first thing that came to mind in the cookie test! - a nice boring term.) 5) The first entry in the search is from Howstuffworks.com. 6) There's now a new cookie in my list: from howstuffworks.com, called SaneID. But I haven't visited Howstuffworks.com - only Google. Note that: - this is against the "originating site only" rule I have set in Firefox, and - in removing this cookie, I checked the "don't allow from this site" box. But the next time I ran the test, there's the cookie again. Now. As far as I can tell, this is operating on the back of a prefetch capability introduced a while back by Google. The pitch is "faster browsing". http://www.google.com/help/features.html (Of course you need to know that you need to know about prefetch before you can try and find out what prefetch does, and you need to know it's called "prefetch" before you can search for it ...) The "disable" instructions don't work because in about:config the prefetch stuff is missing (and since Ctl-F is very easy to use, and prefetch is easy to spell, I don't think it's my eyesight...). But note: this is not just setting cookies ahead of the browsing decision; prefetch is circumventing my cookie policy. I suppose this counts as a bug in Firefox (yes, I will report it), but I still don't like "features that exploit bugs". Richard Chirgwin From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Sat Dec 17 10:05:53 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Sat Dec 17 11:06:20 2005 Subject: [LINK] Diebold e-voting machines Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20051217095442.020bdc18@popa.melbpc.org.au> >Bonus item: Proof that Diebold machines can be easily hacked to give false >voting results, without detection - something the manufacturers insisted >was impossible > > Has links to the supporting reports of what is happening in the US re e-voting machine company being charged with securities fraud as well. Jan JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Sat Dec 17 19:11:15 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Sat Dec 17 19:11:16 2005 Subject: [LINK] Volunteer encyclopedia as accurate as Britannica, journal says In-Reply-To: <43A16345.3090406@optusnet.com.au> References: <43A16345.3090406@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <43A3C823.3020401@ozemail.com.au> Thanks to The Register for going behind the >screams obscenities< wire story and debunking the "about as accurate". > Science journal /Nature/chose 50 science articles from both > Encyclopedia Britanica and gave peer reviewers a blind test to find > mistakes. That gave the free-for-all web site a fighting chance - as > it excluded the rambling garbage and self-indulgence that constitute > much of the wannabe "encyclopedia" social science and culture entries. > 43 reviewers replied, and this is what they found. > > Britannica turned up 123 "errors", and Wikipedia 162. > > In other words, the quality of information coming from Wikipedia was > *31 per cent worse*. > 31% worse = "about as accurate" only in the deranged reality of the puffbox press release. > But more broadly, only someone more obsessed by _process_ than by _the > end result_ can regard this as any kind of victory - something all the > popular press missed in their anxiety to gives us an upbeat, good news > story from Planet Wikipedia yesterday. What's really depressing going around the Internet examining reaction to this story is that people who will quite happily tell the world that "real media are all chronic liars" are also happy to say "Muckduck media says Wikipedia is great so it must be so!" RC Brendan Scott wrote: > http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/breaking_news/13408982.htm > > > Wikipedia, the encyclopedia that relies on volunteers to pen nearly 4 > million articles, is about as accurate in covering scientific topics > as Encyclopedia Britannica, the journal Nature wrote in an online > article published Wednesday. > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au Sat Dec 17 19:47:59 2005 From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee) Date: Sat Dec 17 19:48:11 2005 Subject: [LINK] Volunteer encyclopedia as accurate as Britannica, journal says In-Reply-To: <43A3C823.3020401@ozemail.com.au> References: <43A16345.3090406@optusnet.com.au> <43A3C823.3020401@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <20051217084759.GA24541@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > Thanks to The Register for going behind the >screams obscenities< wire > story and debunking the "about as accurate". The Register piece is over the top. The idea that error rates (rather than total errors) is a better comparison is perfectly valid (though the inclusion of omissions in the analyses may avoid it being essential), but all they can do is ridicule it. > 31% worse = "about as accurate" only in the deranged reality of the > puffbox press release. Given the context, I think describing a 31% difference as "about as accurate" is not so unreasonable. Unfortunately this doesn't raise my opinion of Wikipedia -- what it does is drastically lower my opinion of the Brittanica! Going by my personal experience with Wikipedia, I think it's actually a MMORPG first and foremost, and an encyclopedia only secondarily. Danny. ---------------------------------------------------------- http://dannyreviews.com/ - over eight hundred book reviews http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog ---------------------------------------------------------- From link at todd.inoz.com Sat Dec 17 20:07:16 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Sat Dec 17 20:11:01 2005 Subject: [LINK] Volunteer encyclopedia as accurate as Britannica, journal says In-Reply-To: <20051217084759.GA24541@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> References: <43A16345.3090406@optusnet.com.au> <43A3C823.3020401@ozemail.com.au> <20051217084759.GA24541@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051217200700.02eae440@wheresmymailserver.com> Good to see the Ministry of Truth is working so effectively :) At 07:47 PM 17/12/2005, Danny Yee wrote: >rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > > Thanks to The Register for going behind the >screams obscenities< wire > > story and debunking the "about as accurate". > >The Register piece is over the top. The idea that error rates >(rather than total errors) is a better comparison is perfectly valid >(though the inclusion of omissions in the analyses may avoid it being >essential), but all they can do is ridicule it. > > > 31% worse = "about as accurate" only in the deranged reality of the > > puffbox press release. > >Given the context, I think describing a 31% difference as "about as >accurate" is not so unreasonable. Unfortunately this doesn't raise my >opinion of Wikipedia -- what it does is drastically lower my opinion >of the Brittanica! > >Going by my personal experience with Wikipedia, I think it's actually >a MMORPG first and foremost, and an encyclopedia only secondarily. > >Danny. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > http://dannyreviews.com/ - over eight hundred book reviews > http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog > ---------------------------------------------------------- >_______________________________________________ >Link mailing list >Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link From cas at taz.net.au Sat Dec 17 20:14:39 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Sat Dec 17 20:14:52 2005 Subject: [LINK] Volunteer encyclopedia as accurate as Britannica, journal says In-Reply-To: <43A3C823.3020401@ozemail.com.au> References: <43A16345.3090406@optusnet.com.au> <43A3C823.3020401@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <20051217091439.GZ12961@taz.net.au> On Sat, Dec 17, 2005 at 07:11:15PM +1100, rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > Thanks to The Register for going behind the >screams obscenities< wire > story and debunking the "about as accurate". yeah, isn't it nice that The Register has been running a campaign to slag off wikipedia for over a year now - it's great that they're so willing to expend so much effort pointing out the inaccuracies and bias of wikipedia. what noble altruists they are. > > Science journal /Nature/chose 50 science articles from both > > Encyclopedia Britanica and gave peer reviewers a blind test to find > > mistakes. That gave the free-for-all web site a fighting chance - as > > it excluded the rambling garbage and self-indulgence that constitute > > much of the wannabe "encyclopedia" social science and culture > > entries. 43 reviewers replied, and this is what they found. > > > > Britannica turned up 123 "errors", and Wikipedia 162. > > > > In other words, the quality of information coming from Wikipedia was > > *31 per cent worse*. > > 31% worse = "about as accurate" only in the deranged reality of the > puffbox press release. and this sort of comment only appears in the deranged hyperbole of displaced anti-blog/anti-wikipedia/anti-new-media journalists and ex-journalists. really, the ONLY people who get so worked up about the unspeakable horror that is wikipedia and blogging in general are encyclopedia publishers (in the particular case of wikipedia) and journalists (for blogs in general). everyone else recognises them for what they are - occasionally accurate data, entertainment, and just one sometimes useful source amongst MANY. you'll just have to face reality - wikipedia and blogs and the like are here now and they're here to stay. whinging about it wont bring back the Good Old Days. > > But more broadly, only someone more obsessed by _process_ than by > > _the end result_ can regard this as any kind of victory - something > > all the popular press missed in their anxiety to gives us an upbeat, > > good news story from Planet Wikipedia yesterday. > > What's really depressing going around the Internet examining reaction > to this story is that people who will quite happily tell the world > that "real media are all chronic liars" are also happy to say > "Muckduck media says Wikipedia is great so it must be so!" no, what's happening is that people are beginning to wake up to the fact that you have to treat ALL sources of information with suspicion and apply your judgement to everything you read - nobody and nowhere is an unbiased and completely accurate source. everyone has a barrow to push, everyone has an agenda, and everyone makes mistakes. a multiplicity of sources makes this obvious BECAUSE all the different biases contradict each other, which highlights the fact that they are just a biased viewpoint and not The Truth similarly, access to news stories from multiple different newspapers (and blogs) etc on the web, makes it really obvious when they are lazy and just reprint (perhaps with some minor editing) the press release faxed in bulk from some spin doctor. this fact is extremely disturbing to those who have made their careers (and even their empires) by pushing the illusion that they are "authoritative", reliable, objective and even "fair and balanced" information sources. those days are over. that lie has been exposed. good riddance. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Sat Dec 17 22:05:08 2005 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Sat Dec 17 22:05:26 2005 Subject: [LINK] Volunteer encyclopedia as accurate as Britannica, journal says In-Reply-To: <20051217091439.GZ12961@taz.net.au> References: <43A16345.3090406@optusnet.com.au> <43A3C823.3020401@ozemail.com.au> <20051217091439.GZ12961@taz.net.au> Message-ID: This has been an interesting and informative thread, from both/all sides, and I do hope it's not going to descend into a slagging match. On the subject of quality assurance of Wikipedia pages ... I've today added to my 1993-94 paper on Asimov's Laws of Robotics, at: http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/SOS/Asimov.html the following footnote: [... I recommend the splendid Wikipedia article. (No, I didn't contribute to it, but I applaud the authors, starting with Brian Schack in July 2002, followed by many scores of people progressively since then) ] The article is at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Laws_Of_Robotics The authorship history is 500-deep in 3-1/2 years, with many divergences along the way, and is at: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Three_Laws_of_Robotics&action=history Yes, you're right: it's marvellous how much you can read into and from a rich history like that; and remarkable that, at any given time, you can be: - lucky and get high quality; - unlucky and get obvious garbage; or - seriously unlucky and get non-obvious garbage that slips under your guard. I think Wikipedia is actually an experiment, not by us, but by: - Isaac Asimov's robots, to see if mere humans can invent 'psycho-history'; - Douglas Adams' white mice; and/or - Terry Pratchett's sweeper-monk. Go on then, let's see how many linkers are familiar with all three allusions. -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Sat Dec 17 22:34:26 2005 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Sat Dec 17 22:34:48 2005 Subject: [LINK] Re: RFC: Paper on Google's Challenges to the Law Message-ID: Further to my remark on Sat, 17 Dec 2005 17:12:53 +1100: >I suspect that "We will not reduce your rights under this Policy >without your explicit consent" and the "prominent notice" provision >may be reasonably recent changes. I'll have to hope the Wayback >Machine has enough copies for me to be able to interpolate when it >turned up. The Wayback machine at http://www.archive.org carries no archive for Google's privacy policies. *But* the current version on Google's own site offers: - View current privacy policy http://www.google.com/privacy_archive.html - Version 07/01/2004 http://www.google.com/privacy_archive.html - Version 08/14/2000 http://www.google.com/privacy_archive_2004.html (Well, the filename-norms could do with some work, but let's not be picky!) I'll report on the longevity of the key terms when I'm less tired, and have had time to analyse them properly. But I'm still stunned at finding what I need on Google's own site. -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From hartr at interweft.com.au Sat Dec 17 22:53:44 2005 From: hartr at interweft.com.au (Robert Hart) Date: Sat Dec 17 22:53:58 2005 Subject: [LINK] Volunteer encyclopedia as accurate as Britannica, journal says In-Reply-To: <20051217091439.GZ12961@taz.net.au> References: <43A16345.3090406@optusnet.com.au> <43A3C823.3020401@ozemail.com.au> <20051217091439.GZ12961@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <43A3FC48.9070309@interweft.com.au> Craig Sanders wrote: >and this sort of comment only appears in the deranged hyperbole of >displaced anti-blog/anti-wikipedia/anti-new-media journalists and >ex-journalists. really, the ONLY people who get so worked up about >the unspeakable horror that is wikipedia and blogging in general are >encyclopedia publishers (in the particular case of wikipedia) and >journalists (for blogs in general). everyone else recognises them for >what they are - occasionally accurate data, entertainment, and just one >sometimes useful source amongst MANY. > >you'll just have to face reality - wikipedia and blogs and the like are >here now and they're here to stay. whinging about it wont bring back the >Good Old Days. > Hmm There is only one blog I read regularly (ie every day) - Groklaw - and that is I believe an excellent source of accurate information on the areas it covers. -- Robert Hart hartr@interweft.com.au +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au From hartr at interweft.com.au Sat Dec 17 22:58:23 2005 From: hartr at interweft.com.au (Robert Hart) Date: Sat Dec 17 22:58:28 2005 Subject: [LINK] Volunteer encyclopedia as accurate as Britannica, journal says In-Reply-To: References: <43A16345.3090406@optusnet.com.au> <43A3C823.3020401@ozemail.com.au> <20051217091439.GZ12961@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <43A3FD5F.6040901@interweft.com.au> Roger Clarke wrote: > > I think Wikipedia is actually an experiment, not by us, but by: > - Isaac Asimov's robots, to see if mere humans can invent > 'psycho-history'; > - Douglas Adams' white mice; and/or > - Terry Pratchett's sweeper-monk. > > Go on then, let's see how many linkers are familiar with all three > allusions. > I'm afraid you'll have to count me in that group (which I expect will number more than 42). -- Robert Hart hartr@interweft.com.au +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au From lannet at lannet.com.au Sun Dec 18 06:20:33 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Sun Dec 18 06:20:54 2005 Subject: [LINK] Volunteer encyclopedia as accurate as Britannica, journal says In-Reply-To: <43A3FD5F.6040901@interweft.com.au> References: <43A16345.3090406@optusnet.com.au> <43A3C823.3020401@ozemail.com.au> <20051217091439.GZ12961@taz.net.au> <43A3FD5F.6040901@interweft.com.au> Message-ID: <43A46501.4030006@lannet.com.au> 43 - for those who want more out of life... Robert Hart wrote: > Roger Clarke wrote: > >> >> I think Wikipedia is actually an experiment, not by us, but by: >> - Isaac Asimov's robots, to see if mere humans can invent >> 'psycho-history'; >> - Douglas Adams' white mice; and/or >> - Terry Pratchett's sweeper-monk. >> >> Go on then, let's see how many linkers are familiar with all three >> allusions. >> > I'm afraid you'll have to count me in that group (which I expect will > number more than 42). > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you want a computer system that works, just choose Linux; When you want a computer system that works, just, choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; abolish the Australian states. From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Sun Dec 18 07:26:06 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Sun Dec 18 07:26:00 2005 Subject: [LINK] More on cookies... In-Reply-To: <8056c7e90512171140k6e7d7c1bm98c90ee0683e59be@mail.gmail.com> References: <43A3495D.5020703@ozemail.com.au> <8056c7e90512171140k6e7d7c1bm98c90ee0683e59be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43A4745E.9020305@ozemail.com.au> Robin, I was using FF for Windows 1.07, and I scrolled like mad ... network.prefetch-next not there. So I upgraded to 1.5 and there it was. Now turned off. It's really dumb of the Mozilla writers to include a feature which has no UI to turn it off, especially when the feature itself offers such rich possibilities for security vulnerability. For example: we already know that many attacks can be planted in malicious Websites. If the prefetch was fetching a malicious site, most users would never know it had happened - "But I didn't click on the link!" RC Robin Stephens wrote: >Richard, > >On 12/16/05, rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > > >>The "disable" instructions don't work because in about:config the >>prefetch stuff is missing (and since Ctl-F is very easy to use, and >>prefetch is easy to spell, I don't think it's my eyesight...). >> >> > >Two things I discovered while reading your post, > >network.prefetch-next > >is in about:config (firefox 1.0.6 for Linux). You just need to scroll >down to it. > >Ctrl-f is broken in the about:config page. I could not search for >things that were on the about:config page right in front of my eyes. > >Are you using Firefox for Linux or Windows? > >Robin > > > From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Sun Dec 18 08:13:49 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Sun Dec 18 08:13:41 2005 Subject: [LINK] Volunteer encyclopedia as accurate as Britannica, journal says In-Reply-To: <20051217091439.GZ12961@taz.net.au> References: <43A16345.3090406@optusnet.com.au> <43A3C823.3020401@ozemail.com.au> <20051217091439.GZ12961@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <43A47F8D.7050607@ozemail.com.au> Hmmm ... >yeah, isn't it nice that The Register has been running a campaign to >slag off wikipedia for over a year now - it's great that they're so >willing to expend so much effort pointing out the inaccuracies and bias >of wikipedia. what noble altruists they are. > > For all publishing ventures, including Wikipedia, criticism is more important than advocacy - regardless of the motive for the criticism. And I suspect that The Register's core complaint is the same as mine: the thing has a right to exist, but for it to call itself an encyclopedia is a bit rich. I'm going to re-thread the other issues, because "The Nature of Knowledge" is really falling off-topic for a discussion of Wikipedia. RC From david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au Sun Dec 18 20:48:44 2005 From: david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au (David Boxall) Date: Sun Dec 18 20:48:50 2005 Subject: [LINK] New wireless tech 200 times faster Message-ID: <43A5307C.1080309@hunterlink.net.au> From New wireless tech 200 times faster By Staff writers, iTnews 16 December 2005 14:30 AEST Research The Victorian government has announced that wireless broadband 200 times faster than current rates is in the works. The technology is currently under development by the Victoria Research Laboratory?s Gigabit Wireless Laboratory. The lab is part of the Federal Government?s National ICT Australia (NICTA) body, which is aimed at capitalising Australia?s untapped ICT potential. According to Victoria?s Minister for Information and Communication Technology, Marsha Thomson, the semi-conductor wireless technology being developed would create a rethink of business models across industries like health, education and entertainment. As an example of the technology?s potential, Thomson said a two-hour DVD movie would be capable of being downloaded in less than 30 seconds. ?There is every possibility that the potentially low-cost of this world-leading technology will enable wireless multi-gigabit coverage in the office and at home,? she said in a statement. For Thomson the technology was proof that Victoria was playing a major role in national ICT R&D, accounting for more than 42 per cent of national private sector ICT R&D expenditure. ?The Bracks government takes very seriously its responsibility to support our research community, to invest in innovation and research and to drive the commercialisation of research,? she said. -- David Boxall | When a distinguished but elderly david.boxall@hunterlink.net.au | scientist states that something is | possible, he is almost certainly | right. When he states that | something is impossible, he is | very probably wrong. --Arthur C. Clarke From david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au Sun Dec 18 20:52:45 2005 From: david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au (David Boxall) Date: Sun Dec 18 20:52:50 2005 Subject: [LINK] Verso, Saab Grintek test VoIP over WiMAX Message-ID: <43A5316D.5060807@hunterlink.net.au> Verso, Saab Grintek test VoIP over WiMAX By W. David Gardner 16 December 2005 13:34 AEST Networking VoIP over Pre-WiMAX has been successfully tested in a trial in South Africa utilising solutions supplied by Verso Technologies and Saab Grintek Technologies, the companies said Thursday. The trials involved Wi-Fi-compatible PDAs obtaining access to the public switched telephone network (PSTN) via customer premise gateways. Backhauling of WiMAX technology to an existing Telkom South Africa was accomplished through customer premise gateways. Verso?s Class 4 and Class 5 softswitching and gateway technologies were used to deploy the test. ?This trial demonstrates Verso?s ability to provide carrier grade VoIP solutions and applications and specifically demonstrates that Verso can successfully deliver voice and data over a WiMAX network,? said Monty Bannerman, Verso chief executive officer, in a statement. Copyright (c) 2005 CMP Media LLC -- David Boxall | Dogs look up to us david.boxall@hunterlink.net.au | And cats look down on us | But pigs treat us as equals --Winston Churchill From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Mon Dec 19 06:59:53 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Mon Dec 19 07:00:14 2005 Subject: The Nature of Knowledge (was Re: [LINK] Volunteer encyclopedia as accurate as Britannica) In-Reply-To: <20051217091439.GZ12961@taz.net.au> References: <43A16345.3090406@optusnet.com.au> <43A3C823.3020401@ozemail.com.au> <20051217091439.GZ12961@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <43A5BFB9.7080507@ozemail.com.au> OK ... giving this some considerable thought. While the principle that "all knowledge is subjective" and/or "all sources are suspect" stands as a philosophical principle, it's not tenable as a way of life. Feasibility is the first issue. It is not feasible to seek the "original source" for all facts - unless the individual so confines their interests as to seek out a very narrow range of facts indeed. The question of authority is not so simple. Let's take the fundamentalist stance: there is no authoritative source for anything, all information is biased. As a philosophical point, it is strong in a discussion of history and similar disciplines, but weak in discussing science. "King John was inept" is a 'fact' which is subject to interpretation; "gravity causes objects to accelerate towards each other" is far closer to authority. And authority is a continuum: between the highly interpretative and the highly factual lies a wide spectrum. Ignoring this continuum gives rise to the sort of arguments used in favour of Intelligent Design: roughly, that 'it's good to teach ID in science classes because it's good to expose students to competing points of view". Now; news sources are in essence "soft" and interpretative, and therefore can and should be scrutinised. But there is a difference between that and the position that "all journalists are agenda-pushers", nor does it render impossible the discovery and publication of facts. The position that no source can be trusted to offer full facts on any matter is, in fact, a misrendering of a philosophical postulate ("all information is subject to interpretation") as an ad-hominiem stereotype ("all journalists pollute information"). The other reason I object to the over-wide deployment of the denial of objective fact is because it also becomes a cop-out: since objectivity does not exist, it cannot be achieved; since it cannot be achieved, there is no responsibility on the individual to improve their handling of facts. RC From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Mon Dec 19 12:32:25 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Mon Dec 19 12:33:08 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: Letter from the Arbitrator concerning `Winners' Hotline of DC Marketing' - 1902 229 481 Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20051219122923.06ba0ec0@popa.melbpc.org.au> Here is the result: >Dear Ms Whitaker > >Complaint about 1902 229 481 Winners' Hotline of DC Marketing (rf. 14859) > >I am responding to your complaint about the advertising of the above >service, via a prank call to your mobile handset, and then via a recorded >message on 03 9540 5101. > >While TISSC has conducted investigations of the advertising and message >content of the 1902 service itself, and found some issues in both under >the TISSC Code of Practice, the method of promoting the service is not an >issue that it covered by the Code. I have discussed this with the >Australian Communications and Media Authority (ACMA), which has advised me >on an informal basis that no breach of the Spam Act is likely to have >occurred, and I have forwarded details of this promotion to ACMA for its >information and future reference. > >This means I am unable to assist you further with your complaint about >this matter. If you wish to pursue this matter further, you could contact >the 190 service provider responsible for the 190 service. The service >provider is: > >Info FM >Mr Kelvin Evans >P O Box 104 >DINGLEY VIC 3172 >Tel: 03 9558 0022 >Fax: 03 9558 0299 > >If you experience any further difficulties with 190 services in the >future, please do not hesitate to call this office on 1300 139 955. > >Yours sincerely, JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From lannet at lannet.com.au Mon Dec 19 12:49:53 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Mon Dec 19 12:50:14 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: Letter from the Arbitrator concerning `Winners' Hotline of DC Marketing' - 1902 229 481 In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20051219122923.06ba0ec0@popa.melbpc.org.au> References: <6.0.3.0.0.20051219122923.06ba0ec0@popa.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <43A611C1.3020702@lannet.com.au> IOW, TTT (Totally Toothless Tiger) Jan Whitaker wrote: > Here is the result: > > >> Dear Ms Whitaker >> >> Complaint about 1902 229 481 Winners' Hotline of DC Marketing (rf. 14859) >> >> I am responding to your complaint about the advertising of the above >> service, via a prank call to your mobile handset, and then via a >> recorded message on 03 9540 5101. >> >> While TISSC has conducted investigations of the advertising and >> message content of the 1902 service itself, and found some issues in >> both under the TISSC Code of Practice, the method of promoting the >> service is not an issue that it covered by the Code. I have discussed >> this with the Australian Communications and Media Authority (ACMA), >> which has advised me on an informal basis that no breach of the Spam >> Act is likely to have occurred, and I have forwarded details of this >> promotion to ACMA for its information and future reference. >> >> This means I am unable to assist you further with your complaint about >> this matter. If you wish to pursue this matter further, you could >> contact the 190 service provider responsible for the 190 service. The >> service provider is: >> >> Info FM >> Mr Kelvin Evans >> P O Box 104 >> DINGLEY VIC 3172 >> Tel: 03 9558 0022 >> Fax: 03 9558 0299 >> >> If you experience any further difficulties with 190 services in the >> future, please do not hesitate to call this office on 1300 139 955. >> >> Yours sincerely, > > > > > > > JLWhitaker Associates > Melbourne, Victoria, Australia > jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm > > 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there > is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 > _ __________________ _ > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you want a computer system that works, just choose Linux; When you want a computer system that works, just, choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; abolish the Australian states. From brd at iimetro.com.au Mon Dec 19 13:04:32 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Mon Dec 19 13:04:49 2005 Subject: [LINK] Broadband Use for Elderly, Disabled a Key to Reducing U.S. Health Care Costs? Message-ID: <43A61530.A3CEFC52@iimetro.com.au> Broadband Use for Elderly, Disabled a Key to Reducing U.S. Health Care Costs? News Staff Dec 12, 2005 http://www.public-cio.com/newsStory.php?id=2005.12.12-97545 A leading U.S. economist last week announced that the U.S. has at its disposal an overlooked "secret weapon" that could significantly reduce health care costs and kickstart the nation's sluggish economy: accelerated deployment of broadband benefiting an estimated 70 million Americans who are either over 65 or under that age but disabled. In a report prepared for the New Millennium Research Council (NMRC), Robert E. Litan identifies up to $927 billion in cost savings and output benefits from "business as usual" broadband deployment and an additional $532 billion-$847 billion in economic benefits from accelerated broadband deployment. Litan is vice president for research and policy at the Kauffman Foundation and also is a senior fellow in the economic studies program at the Brookings Institution. In Great Expectations: Potential Economic Benefits To The Nation From Accelerated Broadband Deployment To Older Americans And Americans With Disabilities, Litan notes: "Three types of benefits from broadband deployment and use are addressed: lower medical costs; lower costs of institutionalized living; and additional output generated by more seniors and individuals with disabilities in the labor force. Considered together, these three benefits are estimated to accumulate to at least $927 billion in 2005 dollars ... This amount is equivalent to half of what the United States currently spends annually for medical care for all its citizens ($1.8 trillion) ... Policies designed to accelerate the use of broadband for these populations, however, could significantly add to the benefits, by cumulative amounts ranging from $532 billion to $847 billion (depending on the wages earned by the additional working seniors)." To provide a sense of scale for the potential savings and other benefits from accelerated broadband, the NMRC report notes: "The policy benefits are as substantial as what the federal government is likely to spend on homeland security over the next 25 years. Total cumulative benefits, under the right set of policies, could exceed what the United States currently spends annually for health care for all its citizens ..." Though it has been understood that broadband technologies that allow rapid and always-on connections to the Internet will provide significant benefits to the U.S. economy, the NMRC report is the first to estimate the economic benefits to the nation due to cost savings and output expansion resulting from the use of broadband technologies for an important specific sub-group of the U.S. population: the 35 million Americans over 65 and as many as 36 million non-elderly Americans with disabilities. As the report points out: "There is wide agreement that broadband will provide enormous benefits to users and to the entire economy, especially as the take-up rate increases. But so far, relatively little attention has been paid to the potential benefits to be reaped by different groups within American society and how this in turn will generate economic benefits and cost savings over time ... Clearly, with so much at stake, policymakers have strong reasons to consider measures to accelerate the deployment and use of broadband technologies for America's seniors and individuals with disabilities." The Litan report is being hailed by groups representing older Americans and those with disabilities. Flora Green, national spokesperson, The Seniors Coalition, said: "This report lays out the need for accelerated broadband access for seniors with disabilities and the substantial and measurable benefits that will result from eliminating the barriers to the deployment of this broadband technology. Most importantly, the Litan report documents the fact that most seniors with disabilities don't need to be Internet savvy, but only need access to monitors and devices that record information on chronic illnesses of seniors and then relay that information across a broadband network. It is a technology that will save Medicare money, improve the quality of life for millions of seniors, and ultimately save lives when a life-threatening condition is instantly reported across that broadband network. The time is at hand for Congress to eliminate the barriers to full deployment of a national broadband network." Andrew J. Imparato, president and CEO, American Association of People with Disabilities, said: "Mr. Litan makes a compelling economic case for accelerated broadband deployment to people with disabilities and seniors. If we can leverage this new technology to improve health, independent living and labor force participation, as Mr. Litan suggests, we will have moved closer to our goals of full participation in community life for Americans with disabilities of all ages. The fact that this transformation will result in billions in savings for the federal treasury will hopefully move this important issue up on the list of national priorities." -- The Republicans have a new healthcare proposal: Just say NO to illness! -- Mark Russell Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Mon Dec 19 13:13:23 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Mon Dec 19 13:13:34 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: Letter from the Arbitrator concerning `Winners' Hotline of DC Marketing' - 1902 229 481 In-Reply-To: <43A611C1.3020702@lannet.com.au> References: <6.0.3.0.0.20051219122923.06ba0ec0@popa.melbpc.org.au> <43A611C1.3020702@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <20051219101323.ygre16czwrkgccoc@mymail.com.au> Quoting Howard Lowndes : > IOW, TTT (Totally Toothless Tiger) No, wilfully non-biting tiger. Here is a Whirlpool discussion on the same topic ... the whole thing screams "scam". http://whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies-archive.cfm/430638.html RC > > Jan Whitaker wrote: >> Here is the result: >> >> >>> Dear Ms Whitaker >>> >>> Complaint about 1902 229 481 Winners' Hotline of DC Marketing (rf. 14859) >>> >>> I am responding to your complaint about the advertising of the >>> above service, via a prank call to your mobile handset, and then >>> via a recorded message on 03 9540 5101. >>> >>> While TISSC has conducted investigations of the advertising and >>> message content of the 1902 service itself, and found some issues >>> in both under the TISSC Code of Practice, the method of promoting >>> the service is not an issue that it covered by the Code. I have >>> discussed this with the Australian Communications and Media >>> Authority (ACMA), which has advised me on an informal basis that no >>> breach of the Spam Act is likely to have occurred, and I have >>> forwarded details of this promotion to ACMA for its information and >>> future reference. >>> >>> This means I am unable to assist you further with your complaint >>> about this matter. If you wish to pursue this matter further, you >>> could contact the 190 service provider responsible for the 190 >>> service. The service provider is: >>> >>> Info FM >>> Mr Kelvin Evans >>> P O Box 104 >>> DINGLEY VIC 3172 >>> Tel: 03 9558 0022 >>> Fax: 03 9558 0299 >>> >>> If you experience any further difficulties with 190 services in the >>> future, please do not hesitate to call this office on 1300 139 955. >>> >>> Yours sincerely, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> JLWhitaker Associates >> Melbourne, Victoria, Australia >> jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm >> >> 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, >> there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 >> _ __________________ _ >> _______________________________________________ >> Link mailing list >> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link >> > > -- > Howard. > LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people > -- > When you want a computer system that works, just choose Linux; > When you want a computer system that works, just, choose Microsoft. > -- > Flatter government, not fatter government; abolish the Australian states. > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using MyMail From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Mon Dec 19 15:05:06 2005 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Mon Dec 19 15:08:51 2005 Subject: [LINK] RFI: Web-Page Version Management Message-ID: Like many other people and organisations, I need a simple means of upgrading my management of a number of web-pages to support the following: Musts: - version-management, with at least date-time stamps, and preferably version-numbers as well - chaining of each version back to its immediate precedecessor - decently-formatted compare-file facility between any version and its immediate predecessor Coulds: - a page indexing and linking to all versions - on that index-page, an ability to nominate a pair of versions and request a decently-formatted compare-file between them I've had a look at Wikipedia's approach (at last!), and even submitted my first edit of an existing Wikipedia page (Information wants to be free). But I need to manage pages on my own site, and restrict update-capability to myself only. (Of course, I'd be pleased if the product I use supports collaborative pages as well, both closed-group, and open like Wikipedia). I'd much appreciate linkers' experiences and recommendations for solutions. -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From lannet at lannet.com.au Mon Dec 19 15:56:07 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Mon Dec 19 15:56:23 2005 Subject: [LINK] RFI: Web-Page Version Management In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43A63D67.8040103@lannet.com.au> RCS, CVS, or Subversion. Take your pick. Roger Clarke wrote: > > Like many other people and organisations, I need a simple means of > upgrading my management of a number of web-pages to support the following: > > Musts: > - version-management, with at least date-time stamps, and > preferably version-numbers as well > - chaining of each version back to its immediate precedecessor > - decently-formatted compare-file facility between any version and > its immediate predecessor > > Coulds: > - a page indexing and linking to all versions > - on that index-page, an ability to nominate a pair of versions > and request a decently-formatted compare-file between them > > I've had a look at Wikipedia's approach (at last!), and even submitted > my first edit of an existing Wikipedia page (Information wants to be free). > > But I need to manage pages on my own site, and restrict > update-capability to myself only. (Of course, I'd be pleased if the > product I use supports collaborative pages as well, both closed-group, > and open like Wikipedia). > > I'd much appreciate linkers' experiences and recommendations for solutions. > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you want a computer system that works, just choose Linux; When you want a computer system that works, just, choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; abolish the Australian states. From carl at xena.IPAustralia.gov.au Mon Dec 19 15:57:13 2005 From: carl at xena.IPAustralia.gov.au (Carl Makin) Date: Mon Dec 19 15:57:24 2005 Subject: [LINK] RFI: Web-Page Version Management In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1134968233.60180.35.camel@newton.aipo.gov.au> Hi Roger, On Mon, 2005-12-19 at 15:05 +1100, Roger Clarke wrote: > I'd much appreciate linkers' experiences and recommendations for solutions. We're using TWiki (http://twiki.org) here for operational documentation and collaboration with excellent results. Everything you ask for is available in its basic form, and with a few extra plugins such as table management, comments, and Kupu WYSISYG editing it becomes an excellent web publishing environment. TWiki is perl based and we run it on FreeBSD under mod_perl with quite good performance. Definitely recommended... Carl. From david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au Mon Dec 19 22:17:56 2005 From: david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au (David Boxall) Date: Mon Dec 19 21:18:21 2005 Subject: [LINK] Telstra's 3G City-to-Country Plan (long) Message-ID: <43A696E4.3050102@hunterlink.net.au> From Telstra's 3G City-to-Country Plan Telstra has announced it will roll out a single, super-fast 3G mobile network to replace the current CDMA mobile network. This new network will reach 98 per cent of people and giving all our customers ? city-to-country ? access to the same mobile technology. What the City-to-Country Plan means for you * It means faster speeds, bigger coverage and better and more mobile services provided on the best and largest network in the country. * By operating this new 3G technology in the 850 MHz frequency band ? the same as CDMA ? 3G will match existing CDMA coverage without the need for extra base stations. * CDMA will remain in place until the national 3G service is providing the same or better coverage and services. * Wireless broadband on the new network is expected to deliver average speeds of 550 to 1,100 kb/s, and peaking at 14 mb/s. * Current Telstra and BigPond? Wireless Broadband customers using the EVDO network, and those who take up the service between now and the delivery of the new technology, will receive free upgrades and replacement data cards and modems. * 3G will deliver today's mobile services, along with video calling, rich content, music services, and the ability to send information more quickly over your device, or from a laptop when you're out and about via a 3G wireless broadband card. * Great international roaming to more than 100 countries including all the most popular travel or business destinations. Frequently asked questions * What does Telstra?s 3G announcement mean for mobile phone users? Telstra?s 3G City-to-Country vision is a plan to deliver high-speed 3G to mobile users across its national network. It means faster speeds, bigger coverage, better and more mobile services for our retail customers * Why couldn?t Telstra continue to develop the three networks it has, as they seem to meet the needs of different market segments in terms of coverage and service offerings? This plan allows us to provide better coverage, faster data speeds, more services to more Australians. It doesn?t make sense to continue to maintain multiple network technologies all vying for the same investment dollars. Our vision allows us to take a much more focussed approach to investment, which means maximising the benefits of any new technologies by making them available to more customers. This lays the foundation for the provision of 4G services in the future * What is the timeframe? This is a three-year vision. Our plans would see work start early next year with the first new services available in the second half of next year. However, we will be carrying out additional work and further upgrades to the network through to mid 2007. We will be working with customers over the next three years in relation to the gradual take up of new services as they become available. * What does this mean for hearing impaired customers? Telstra?s national 3G network plan is an upgrade based on a form of CDMA technology. Once the 3G network rollout is complete, Telstra expects 3G handsets will have the same interference characteristics as current CDMA handsets. Telstra will also undertake specific testing of new 3G handsets to confirm their suitability for people who have hearing aids or cochlear implants. * What will happen to CDMA base stations? Both GSM and CDMA base stations will have 3G added. We will operate 3G and CDMA services simultaneously during a transition period that will allow us to sell new services and migrate existing customers to new devices and handsets. Where there are both existing GSM services and CDMA services on the one tower, we will also need to add 3G services. * Why did Telstra select GSM technology? We wanted to offer new services and better technology to more Australians: o Better coverage because we are combining the reach of our existing networks and extending coverage on highways; o Deliver wireless broadband through a single network; o Improve the depth of coverage; o Improve in-building coverage; o A wider range of services such as video calling, music downloads and video clips; o Access to a single superior technology path, setting the foundation for 4G. * Why didn?t Telstra install GSM six years ago when the analogue network was forced to close? Based on the technology available at the time, CDMA provided the best means of addressing coverage issues in rural and regional areas. However, development of 3G technology on the same frequency band as CDMA allows us to provide like-for-like coverage, but with the additional features available on 3G. The data speeds that are currently available over EVDO are better than 3G. Wouldn?t it be better in terms of wireless broadband coverage to continue to upgrade EVDO, and its further evolutions? Technologies are developing all the time, and there is a service that has been developed on the 3G platform that provides wireless broadband services (HSDPA ? High Speed Downlink Packet Access) at higher speeds than the current EVDO offering. The next evolution of HSDPA is expected to provide peak broadband speeds up to 14Mbps. We will continue to support and expand EVDO until the new service is available. * You are talking about an 850 everywhere technology solution, but you currently operate 3G services on 2100 MHz spectrum. What does this announcement mean to current 3G customers? Those who have 3G services on the 2100 band will continue to have access to that service and expansions to the service at that frequency. However, to obtain the full national benefits of the new 3G coverage they will need an 850 handset or one of the multi-band phones to be made available in the future. We don?t think this will present a major problem as most customers upgrade their handset on average every two years, at which time they will be able to obtain the latest dual band device. * When CDMA was released it was heralded as a great new technology, but there were fewer and more expensive handsets. Won?t this happen again if we move to another new technology? The handset range will increase progressively over time and will extend rapidly to cover a range of prices depending on features and functions. We will also offer a range of services on appropriate plans from basic mobile telephony and text messaging to rich content and down-loadable services such as music and video clips, video calling and content services. * I have just brought a new Telstra Mobile Broadband service. Does this mean in 12 or 18months I will no longer have a service? Telstra is committed to pursuing growth in wireless broadband services. To demonstrate this commitment we will be expanding existing wireless broadband services until the new 3G network becomes available. Once the new network is operating we will be providing Telstra Mobile Broadband and BigPond Wireless Broadband customers currently using the EVDO service with free replacement pc cards and modems. * What technology will the new Telstra Mobile Broadband service use? The Telstra Mobile Broadband service will be provided by High Speed Download Packet Data (HSDPA). We will not be closing the EVDO network until well after the rollout of the new service, at which time customers will have the added benefit of national coverage. In the interim Telstra is committed to pursuing wireless broadband growth and expanding the network. Myth-busters There have been some inaccurate claims made about Telstra's 3G City-to-Country Plan. See below for Telstra?s response to these myths. CLAIM: All of Telstra?s mobile customers will need to buy a new 3G handset. FACT: Most of Telstra?s mobile customers use GSM handsets, and we have no plans to stop operating the current GSM network, so these GSM handsets will continue to operate. Some GSM customers may, however, choose to upgrade to a new handset if they want to enjoy the benefits of the new 3G network such as video calls and mobile television. CLAIM: Telstra?s CDMA customers will need to replace their phones by the end of 2006. FACT: This is a long term plan. The existing CDMA service will remain in place until the national 3G service has the same or better coverage and services. We have outlined a three-year plan, so there will be ample time to determine the most suitable option for you to take make full use of the new 3G services. CLAIM: Country customers will have to pay for expensive new handsets. FACT: Customers on average upgrade their phones about every two years. Telstra will be offering attractive plans to welcome customers to the new service. CLAIM: The Government has invested $400M in the CDMA network, which will be wasted. FACT: Government investment in CDMA totals approximately $115 million ? including the programs Networking the Nation, Estens, Besley and Wireless West. Some 80 per cent of this investment was in site acquisition and tower construction. These sites will be retained and upgraded to provide a vastly superior range of services, at Telstra?s expense. CLAIM: Telstra is reneging on commitments to provide CDMA for ten years. FACT: Telstra will meet its existing contractual obligations and discuss its plans to provide superior services further with government. From link at todd.inoz.com Mon Dec 19 22:22:53 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Mon Dec 19 22:27:42 2005 Subject: [LINK] New wireless tech 200 times faster In-Reply-To: <43A5307C.1080309@hunterlink.net.au> References: <43A5307C.1080309@hunterlink.net.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051219222224.03089a48@wheresmymailserver.com> >As an example of the technology's potential, Thomson said a two-hour DVD >movie would be capable of being downloaded in less than 30 seconds. Id have thought this was more likely to be an illegal use of the technology? Are they promoting it - Kazza :) From stephen at melbpc.org.au Tue Dec 20 00:09:16 2005 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen@melbpc.org.au) Date: Tue Dec 20 00:09:36 2005 Subject: [LINK] Creating PHP/MySQL work environments for schools Message-ID: <20051219130916.1AE4F14073@vscan41.melbpc.org.au> Hi Peter and Link As a high school ICT Coordinator, Peter is already a very busy man. Knowing school staffing, I bet he would have one, perhaps two days a week to keep probably several hundred ICT resources networked, for normally a thousand staff & students. Well done, Peter .. and perhaps Link mailing list members may be able to assist with well considered advice and/or contacts? On Mon, 19 Dec 15:11:23, Peter wrote: > I have started my learning of PHP/MySQL and very happy with > the progress to date. > > *What I have done.* > I have downloaded and installed xampp > . Setup and > configuration was a snap except that the Apache server would not start > until I changed the port that Skype was using from port 80. Since I > modified the MySQL login credentials the samples (eg CD’s) did > not work until I modified the relevant PHP files using a text editor. > > Next was to download and install the freeware tool PHP Designer 2005 > . A couple of > configuration settings were needed to let PHP Designer know where the > PHP interpreter was located as well as the PHP ini file. I am also > saving the php experiments into \xampp\xampp\htdocs where the php files > that come with xampp are located. This means that my browser can also > use these files using the address http://localhost/xampp/filename.php > > Finally a great set of tutorials at > http://www.tizag.com/mysqlTutorial/mysqlinsert.php that covers mySQL, > PHP, HTML and CSS. > > I've created a sample database using PHPmyadmin that comes with xampp. > > I created two tables that could be linked. Then I followed the mySQL > tutorial from http://www.tizag.com/mysqlTutorial/mysqlinsert.php but > modifying it on the fly to suit the database that I created. This > modifying on the fly has been good as I know that I have understood. > > I have successfully created a html form and used the data input into > this form to update a MySQL table. Fantastic. I have enough to continue > building my knowledge and feel comfortable with this development > environment. I am not sure that it is the best environment for school > and this relates to my next question. Before I go too much further I > need to work out how do I implement this learning in a school. > > *What I need is some advice about how to create a PHP/MySQL work > environment at school*. Some of the issues are: > > * Students should not store their work on a PC. PC’s can be > re-imaged without notice. We can not assume that students will > work on the same PC each time either. They will need to be able to > continue with their work at other locations in the school and > hopefully at home. > * I would be happy with students doing their development on an > external server so that it can be accessed from school and home. > However, working on a server adds complexity as code has to be > written, uploaded to the server and then executed by checking with > a browser. They do not get the benefit of using tools like PHP > Designer 2005. > * How do you easily have a server set up so that 20 students can > each have their space for testing? > * It is easy to backup a database, destroy it and then restore it > using PHPmyadmin. PHP files can be copied to another location for > safe keeping. > > Regards > Peter > > -- > If computers get too powerful, we can organize them into a committee -- > that will do them in. > > Peter Ruwoldt > ICT Coordinator > Grant High School > Hosking Avenue > MOUNT GAMBIER SA 5290 > > P. 08 87263107 (Do not leave voice mail) > F. 08 87250173 > > ruwoldtp@granths.sa.edu.au > http://waraku.blogspot.com/ >_______________________________________________ http://www.edulists.com.au IT Systems Mailing List kindly supported by http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and http://www.vitta.org.au - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc -- Regards Peter Stephen Loosley info@netheaven.us Message sent using MelbPC WebMail Server From lannet at lannet.com.au Tue Dec 20 08:30:54 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Tue Dec 20 08:32:49 2005 Subject: [LINK] Creating PHP/MySQL work environments for schools In-Reply-To: <20051219130916.1AE4F14073@vscan41.melbpc.org.au> References: <20051219130916.1AE4F14073@vscan41.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <43A7268E.50507@lannet.com.au> This sounds as if it need the Linux Terminal Server Project http://ltsp.org/ or more specifically the Linux Terminal Server Project for Schools http://k12ltsp.org/contents.html stephen@melbpc.org.au wrote: > Hi Peter and Link > > As a high school ICT Coordinator, Peter is already a very > busy man. Knowing school staffing, I bet he would have one, > perhaps two days a week to keep probably several hundred ICT > resources networked, for normally a thousand staff & students. > > Well done, Peter .. and perhaps Link mailing list members may > be able to assist with well considered advice and/or contacts? > > On Mon, 19 Dec 15:11:23, Peter wrote: > > >>I have started my learning of PHP/MySQL and very happy with >>the progress to date. >> >>*What I have done.* >>I have downloaded and installed xampp >>. Setup and >>configuration was a snap except that the Apache server would not start >>until I changed the port that Skype was using from port 80. Since I >>modified the MySQL login credentials the samples (eg CD’s) did >>not work until I modified the relevant PHP files using a text editor. >> >>Next was to download and install the freeware tool PHP Designer 2005 >> . A couple of >>configuration settings were needed to let PHP Designer know where the >>PHP interpreter was located as well as the PHP ini file. I am also >>saving the php experiments into \xampp\xampp\htdocs where the php files >>that come with xampp are located. This means that my browser can also >>use these files using the address http://localhost/xampp/filename.php >> >>Finally a great set of tutorials at >>http://www.tizag.com/mysqlTutorial/mysqlinsert.php that covers mySQL, >>PHP, HTML and CSS. >> >>I've created a sample database using PHPmyadmin that comes with xampp. >> >>I created two tables that could be linked. Then I followed the mySQL >>tutorial from http://www.tizag.com/mysqlTutorial/mysqlinsert.php but >>modifying it on the fly to suit the database that I created. This >>modifying on the fly has been good as I know that I have understood. >> >>I have successfully created a html form and used the data input into >>this form to update a MySQL table. Fantastic. I have enough to continue >>building my knowledge and feel comfortable with this development >>environment. I am not sure that it is the best environment for school >>and this relates to my next question. Before I go too much further I >>need to work out how do I implement this learning in a school. >> >>*What I need is some advice about how to create a PHP/MySQL work >>environment at school*. Some of the issues are: >> >>* Students should not store their work on a PC. PC’s can be >>re-imaged without notice. We can not assume that students will >>work on the same PC each time either. They will need to be able to >>continue with their work at other locations in the school and >>hopefully at home. >>* I would be happy with students doing their development on an >>external server so that it can be accessed from school and home. >>However, working on a server adds complexity as code has to be >>written, uploaded to the server and then executed by checking with >>a browser. They do not get the benefit of using tools like PHP >>Designer 2005. >>* How do you easily have a server set up so that 20 students can >>each have their space for testing? >>* It is easy to backup a database, destroy it and then restore it >>using PHPmyadmin. PHP files can be copied to another location for >>safe keeping. >> >>Regards >>Peter >> >>-- >>If computers get too powerful, we can organize them into a committee -- >>that will do them in. >> >>Peter Ruwoldt >>ICT Coordinator >>Grant High School >>Hosking Avenue >>MOUNT GAMBIER SA 5290 >> >>P. 08 87263107 (Do not leave voice mail) >>F. 08 87250173 >> >>ruwoldtp@granths.sa.edu.au >>http://waraku.blogspot.com/ >>_______________________________________________ > > http://www.edulists.com.au > IT Systems Mailing List kindly supported by > http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment > Authority and > http://www.vitta.org.au - VITTA Victorian Information Technology > Teachers Association Inc > > -- > > Regards Peter > Stephen Loosley > info@netheaven.us > > Message sent using MelbPC WebMail Server > > > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you want a computer system that works, just choose Linux; When you want a computer system that works, just, choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; abolish the Australian states. From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Tue Dec 20 08:39:03 2005 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Tue Dec 20 08:40:00 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: [ausweb-l] AusWeb06 Conference Update - Issue 4 References: <6.2.3.4.0.20051219184608.02899f80@popstaff.scu.edu.au> Message-ID: <4593EE42-B001-44FC-8041-70CAB01F209D@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Begin forwarded message: > From: Kyona Luff > Date: 19 December 2005 6:47:28 PM > To: ausweb-l@scu.edu.au > Subject: [ausweb-l] AusWeb06 Conference Update - Issue 4 > Reply-To: ausweb-l@lists.scu.edu.au > > Conference Update > Volume 12, Issue 4 > ------------------------------- > IN THIS ISSUE > 1. Early Bird Registration Now Open > 2. Tutorial, Workshop and SIG Program Finalised > 3. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year > > 1. Early Bird Registration Now Open > ---------------------------------------- > We are pleased to announce that Early Bird Registration is now > available online at our secure site http://ausweb.scu.edu.au/aw06/ > register/index.html. This year we are able to offer delegates a > choice of accommodation within their early bird packages which > includes conference registration, conference materials, two nights > accommodation (Sunday July 2nd and Monday July 3rd), all meals from > Sunday lunch to Tuesday afternoon tea, inclusive of light > breakfast, Conference Dinner and Conference BBQ. > > We are happy to say that registration fees have remained the same > as last year and represent excellent value for an all inclusive > package at a high quality venue. We encourage delegates to register > early. > > 2. Tutorial, Workshop and SIG Program Finalised > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > A wide ranging program of tutorials, workshops and two Special > Interest Group (SIG) sessions are being offered in conjunction with > the core conference days. These pre and post conference sessions > allow for concentrated study of a particular aspect of the Web and > can be regarded as a form of professional or staff development. > Full details are at http://ausweb.scu.edu.au/aw06/conf/workshops.html > > 4. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year > ------------------------------------------------------ > The AusWeb Team would like to wish all ausweb-l subscribers a very > Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! This will be our last posting > for 2005. Spread the word about AusWeb06 and encourage your > colleagues to submit papers or posters and attend the conference. > > Regards, > The AusWeb Team > > --------------------------------------------------------- > If you would like to be removed from this list: > Reply to mailto:ausweb@scu.edu.au > Subject line: UNSUBSCRIBE AUSWEB-L > --------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > ausweb-l mailing list > ausweb-l@lists.scu.edu.au > http://lists.scu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/ausweb-l phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From eleanor at pacific.net.au Tue Dec 20 11:59:50 2005 From: eleanor at pacific.net.au (Eleanor Lister) Date: Tue Dec 20 12:01:20 2005 Subject: [LINK] The Search for Net Neutrality Message-ID: <43A75786.7090403@pacific.net.au> I thought linkers might be interested in this Canadian article : ------------------------------------------- Michael Geist, Canada Research Chair in Internet & E-commerce Law, University of Ottawa, Faculty of Law, writes at http://d2423936.u51.websitesource.net/index.php : ------------------------------------------- The Search for Net Neutrality My weekly Law Bytes column (Toronto Star version , freely available version ) examines the growing trend toward a two-tiered Internet, which upends the longstanding principle of network neutrality under which ISPs treat all data equally. I argue that the network neutrality principle has served ISPs, Internet companies, and Internet users well. It has enabled ISPs to plausibly argue that they function much like common carriers and that they should therefore be exempt from liability for the content that passes through their systems. Websites, e-commerce companies, and other innovators have also relied on network neutrality, secure in the knowledge that the network treats all companies, whether big or small, equally. That approach enables those with the best products and services, not the deepest pockets, to emerge as the market winners. Internet users have similarly benefited from the network neutrality principle. They enjoy access to greater choice in goods, services, and content regardless of which ISP they use. While ISPs may compete based on price, service, or speed, they have not significantly differentiated their services based on availability of Internet content or applications, which remains the same for all. Notwithstanding its benefits, in recent months ISPs have begun to chip away at the principle. Internet telephony provides a classic illustration of this trend. As each major ISP races to offer their own Internet telephony services, some have begun to use their network position to unfairly disadvantage the competition. For example, Canadian cable provider Shaw now offers a premium VoIP service that promises to prioritize Internet telephony traffic for a monthly fee. The potential implications of such a service are obvious - the use of competing services will require a supplemental fee, while Shaw will be free to waive the charge for its own service. While ISPs once avoided content intervention, earlier this summer, Telus blocked access to Voices For Change, a pro-union website. The company has since indicated that it was a one-time event, though in the process it also blocked more than 600 additional websites hosted at the same IP address and cut off entire communities from the controversial content. Most recently, customers of Rogers, Canada's largest cable ISP, have speculated that the company has begun to block access to peer-to-peer services such as BitTorrent as well as the downloading of podcasts from services such as iTunes. While Rogers initially denied the charges, it now acknowledges that it uses "traffic shaping" to prioritize certain online activity. As a result, applications that Rogers deems to be a lower priority rity may cease to function effectively. Moreover, blocking services, websites, and certain applications may not be the end game. Some ISPs see the potential for greater revenue by charging websites or services for priority access to their customers. In the U.S., BellSouth Chief Technology Officer executive William L. Smith, recently mused about the potential to charge a premium to websites for prioritization downloading, noting that Yahoo could pay to load faster than Google. In fact, reports last week indicated that BellSouth and AT&T are now lobbying the U.S. Congress for the right to create a two-tiered Internet, where their own Internet services would be transmitted faster and more efficiently than those of their competitors. These developments should send alarm bells to Internet companies, users, and regulators. While prioritizing websites or applications may hold some economic promise, the lack of broadband competition and insufficient transparency surrounding these actions will rightly lead to growing calls for regulatory reform that grants legal protection for the principle of network neutrality. -- ------------ Eleanor Ashley Lister South Sydney Greens http://ssg.nsw.greens.org.au secretary@ssg.nsw.greens.org.au From jbirch at multinode.com.au Tue Dec 20 14:51:17 2005 From: jbirch at multinode.com.au (Jim Birch) Date: Tue Dec 20 14:51:20 2005 Subject: [LINK] Re: The Nature of Knowledge (from Wiki v Brit) In-Reply-To: <43A5BFB9.7080507@ozemail.com.au> References: <43A16345.3090406@optusnet.com.au> <43A3C823.3020401@ozemail.com.au> <20051217091439.GZ12961@taz.net.au> <43A5BFB9.7080507@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <43A77FB5.2000802@multinode.com.au> rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > OK ... giving this some considerable thought. > > While the principle that "all knowledge is subjective" and/or "all > sources are suspect" stands as a philosophical principle, it's not > tenable as a way of life. On the other hand, there are practical issues to knowledge. If you're an expert in an area you'd only look in Wikipedia for meta-interest in the quality of the article, or to create/improve the content yourself. You're not likely to learn much. If you need to some well-established information, like the surface area of a sphere, what a Fourier transform is, or a list of English monarchs, the Wikipedia entries is very likely to be very accurate and even useful. If you're an interested amateur, perhaps looking to understand terms that you have read elsewhere, article imperfections are of limited practical significance. I read a very informative Wikipedia article on apoptosis recently. I'm not about to come up with a cure for cancer on the basis of the article, but then, no one is. To fully understand apoptosis, you'd need to know a lot more about the cell biology, certainly more than I know. And, in fact, more than anyone knows. It's an complex area of developing knowledge, competing theories, etc. So even if an expert could find omissions and inaccuracies, for me, the article *functioned* brilliantly - it raised my knowledge level significantly, from a very low base. And this is a key feature of encyclopaedias, historically, they might have been touted as an ultimate source of distilled knowledge by door-to-door peddlers, but they are in reality are aimed at the intelligent non-specialist, and they don't have to be perfect to work. You could say that what Wikipedia gets right is actually more important than what it gets wrong. ====== FYI: Apoptosis is a type of programmed cell death. A group a mechanisms that allow a cell to detect when it's own internal processes have gone awry (eg, disease, cancer) and then to shut itself down for the benefit of the organism and (I like this bit) break itself up into neat little packets, ready for easy ingestion by wandering garbage disposal cells called macrophages. Some viruses and other conditions can interfere with apoptosis mechanisms and limit sick or cancerous cells' ability to suicide, causing potentially lethal problems for the greater organism. An ideal treatment for cancers would be drugs that trigger apoptosis very selectively using an activator prevalent in cancer cells but found in low quantities in healthy cells. Disclaimer: IANACB (I am not a cell biologist.) -- Jim Birch jbirch-at-multinode*com*au t: 04 1243 1243 ----- I am not young enough to know everything. -- Oscar Wilde From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au Tue Dec 20 15:14:06 2005 From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee) Date: Tue Dec 20 15:14:43 2005 Subject: [LINK] Re: The Nature of Knowledge (from Wiki v Brit) In-Reply-To: <43A77FB5.2000802@multinode.com.au> References: <43A16345.3090406@optusnet.com.au> <43A3C823.3020401@ozemail.com.au> <20051217091439.GZ12961@taz.net.au> <43A5BFB9.7080507@ozemail.com.au> <43A77FB5.2000802@multinode.com.au> Message-ID: <20051220041406.GA23209@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> I think Wikipedia is an important educational tool, but first and foremost _for its editors_. Getting involved with an article can be an excellent way to learn something about handling references, balancing different points of view, and practical epistemology in general. There are some people who are involved for propaganda purposes of one kind or another and aren't going to improve their understanding of the subject material, but even they will have to learn to wield sources instead of rhetoric and to earn respect within the social framework of Wikipedia if they want to get anywhere. So I think people can learn more from Wikipedia than from World of Warcraft or Everquest or whatever other online game world they could have become involved with instead. I also think Wikipedia is interesting because of its transparency: its epistemological framework and the way that is inextricably interwoven with its culture are visible to everyone. It should be a fascinating subject for philosophers of science. Danny. ---------------------------------------------------------- http://dannyreviews.com/ - over eight hundred book reviews http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog ---------------------------------------------------------- From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Tue Dec 20 16:25:19 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Tue Dec 20 16:25:58 2005 Subject: [LINK] Re: The Nature of Knowledge (from Wiki v Brit) In-Reply-To: <20051220041406.GA23209@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> References: <43A16345.3090406@optusnet.com.au> <43A3C823.3020401@ozemail.com.au> <20051217091439.GZ12961@taz.net.au> <43A5BFB9.7080507@ozemail.com.au> <43A77FB5.2000802@multinode.com.au> <20051220041406.GA23209@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20051220162414.02164b58@popa.melbpc.org.au> At 03:14 PM 20/12/2005, Danny Yee wrote: >I also think Wikipedia is interesting because of its transparency: its >epistemological framework and the way that is inextricably interwoven >with its culture are visible to everyone. It should be a fascinating >subject for philosophers of science. > >Danny. That's a fascinating concept, Danny. I wonder if any schools are using it a an experimental way for documenting learning in classes. If an empty system were set up, it would be a fantastic way for development of student portfolios and joint project work. Jan JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Tue Dec 20 19:01:13 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Tue Dec 20 18:52:22 2005 Subject: [LINK] Re: The Nature of Knowledge (from Wiki v Brit) In-Reply-To: <20051220041406.GA23209@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> References: <43A16345.3090406@optusnet.com.au> <43A3C823.3020401@ozemail.com.au> <20051217091439.GZ12961@taz.net.au> <43A5BFB9.7080507@ozemail.com.au> <43A77FB5.2000802@multinode.com.au> <20051220041406.GA23209@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <43A7BA49.5020300@ozemail.com.au> Danny, I agree with most of your points, but: >I also think Wikipedia is interesting because of its transparency: its >epistemological framework and the way that is inextricably interwoven >with its culture are visible to everyone. It should be a fascinating >subject for philosophers of science. > > Much of the complaint has been that the transparency is chimerical. Sure, you can see stories develop - but you can't reach sources if they have decided to obscure themselves. RC >Danny. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > http://dannyreviews.com/ - over eight hundred book reviews > http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog > ---------------------------------------------------------- >_______________________________________________ >Link mailing list >Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > > > From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au Tue Dec 20 19:11:41 2005 From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee) Date: Tue Dec 20 19:11:49 2005 Subject: [LINK] Re: The Nature of Knowledge (from Wiki v Brit) In-Reply-To: <43A7BA49.5020300@ozemail.com.au> References: <43A16345.3090406@optusnet.com.au> <43A3C823.3020401@ozemail.com.au> <20051217091439.GZ12961@taz.net.au> <43A5BFB9.7080507@ozemail.com.au> <43A77FB5.2000802@multinode.com.au> <20051220041406.GA23209@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> <43A7BA49.5020300@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <20051220081141.GB11461@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > Much of the complaint has been that the transparency is chimerical. > Sure, you can see stories develop - but you can't reach sources if they > have decided to obscure themselves. Do you mean the links to external sources? They are a problem, as they come and go and you can't always see what people were looking at when they made changes to articles. (It would be nice if the whole web had a better revision history than archive.org!) But there's not much Wikipedia can do about this. Internal transparency is pretty good, given the constraints of strong protection of user privacy and support for arbitrary pseudonymity. Apparently there's going to be a less open-slather Wikipedia, with some kind of expert selection. And there are plans for checkpointing "stable" versions of Wikipedia articles. It will be interesting to see how they work out. Danny. ---------------------------------------------------------- http://dannyreviews.com/ - over eight hundred book reviews http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog ---------------------------------------------------------- From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Tue Dec 20 20:35:46 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Tue Dec 20 20:38:11 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: vip-l: interesting article on google and AOL merger, Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20051220203536.02166348@popa.melbpc.org.au> >http://list.windowsitpro.com/t?ctl=1C488:26A44 > > > by Paul Thurrott, >thurrott@windowsitpro.com > > >For Microsoft, Google's last-minute deal with America Online (AOL) >owner Time Warner was like a knife through the corporate heart, ending >the software giant's bid to dramatically improve the standing of its >embattled online search unit. But for Google, the recently revealed >deal might have even deeper consequences. Ignoring its "don't be evil" >corporate mantra, Google has forsaken its pledge never to let its >search pages be subsumed by corporate interests. In striking out >against a would-be competitor, Google has simply revealed itself to be >as flawed as any other corporation. > >Here's what happened. In recent months, Time Warner has sought suitors >for its once-troubled AOL unit, hoping at first to find a company that >would be interested in purchasing all or part of AOL. When that didn't >pan out, Time Warner turned to AOL's ad-supported search service, which >since 2002 has been powered by Google technology. Earlier this month, >"The Wall Street Journal" reported that Time Warner was set to finalize a >deal with Microsoft that would replace Google Search on AOL with the >software giant's MSN Search technology, with Microsoft and Time Warner >splitting ad revenues. > >Then Google swept in with a last-minute offer that scuttled Microsoft's >plans. Google will pay Time Warner $1 billion for a 5 percent stake in >AOL and will keep the AOL search business as a result. The deal, which >was done solely to hurt Microsoft, will not financially benefit Google >in any perceptible way. But as part of the deal, Google will do that >one thing it's always promised not to do: It will present AOL-sponsored >search results on its main search results page, complete with the AOL >logo. That's right, folks. Google has sold out. And it did so to harm a >competitor that has less than one third its market share. > >There are two key lessons here, from what I can see. First, Google is >not the trustworthy corporate giant that some people imagine, though >the company's track record, including its close work with China's >totalitarian government, should have already made that clear. Second, >Google considers Microsoft a huge competitive threat, despite the fact >that the Redmond company has yet to make any serious inroads into >Internet search. JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Wed Dec 21 08:15:23 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Wed Dec 21 08:06:58 2005 Subject: [LINK] A view of patents from a VC Message-ID: <43A8746B.5020606@ozemail.com.au> And also a former inventor and patent owner, who says the US patent system has become a worthless mess. http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/dec2005/tc20051220_827695.htm Viewpoint By Greg Blonder Cutting Through the Patent Thicket The current U.S. system is harming innovation. A simplified process with stronger patents would encourage economic growth For over 200 years, the U.S. patent system has catalyzed economic growth and protected the national interest. Unfortunately, over the past few decades, patents have become irrelevant -- even harmful -- to the innovation process. I say this as someone who grew up believing in the value of patents. As a teenager, I sat raptly in the U.S. Supreme Court gallery listening to attorneys argue /University of Illinois Foundation v. Blonder Tongue Laboratories/, a landmark patent-infringement case involving my father's company. As an inventor, I earned some 70 patents. And as a scientist, I managed research labs generating hundreds of patents a year. But now, as a venture capitalist, I have come to the conclusion that protecting intellectual property (IP) with today's patents is virtually worthless -- despite the large court awards you may read about in the morning paper. HIDDEN FROM VIEW. The first problem with patents is that the entire process takes too long: three years on average, often as long as five, and getting longer all the time. So when a venture capitalist invests in a company, its IP "dowry" remains, at best, provisional. How much would you pay for a company when its assets are hidden from view? Second, a company's most valuable IP almost always results from later insights, gleaned by developing its early products and interacting with customers, not from the IP it originally filed. Competitors are busy inventing as well, and since the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office often grants trivial and overlapping patents, IP minefields may be waiting to explode. Or perhaps the IP is all duds. Who knows? Third, the $50,000 to $100,000 lifetime cost of patent application, protection, and maintenance effectively limits the number of patents a young, financially constrained company can file. Much patentable IP is left on the cutting-room floor, at the risk of allowing trivial variations filed by competitors to block the originator's path to market. Fourth, and probably most important, few venture-capital-backed companies will ever dare to defend their IP in court. If they do, they'll risk losing customers and squandering anywhere from $1 million to $5 million of their precious venture funding. REDUNDANT CONCEPTS. So what good is owning something you can't quantify or won't defend? Very little. It's a bluff, mere saber rattling. The greatest value in patenting IP for a young company, ironically, may lie in the fact that it's often essential in attracting venture capitalists -- who, I would argue, are often pursuing a misguided model of company creation. Successful companies transform ideas into products customers want to buy. But the existence of IP usually has little to do with that ability. Outside of venture capital, the situation is no better. Common business practices, obvious to anyone in the field, are enshrined in overly broad and problematical patents that reduce competition. Patent "trolls" are buying up dubious IP, then suing companies actually engaged in productive activities, such as building products and serving customers. Wasteful court cases, like the recent BlackBerry imbroglio, occur because patents are granted for narrow, redundant concepts that courts find difficult to unravel, and so are open to interpretation. We need to invent ourselves out of this mess. DEAD ENDS. The patent system was designed to encourage the free flow of ideas, in exchange for a temporary monopoly. Not all ideas, however, are worth pursuing, worth defending, or worth backing financially. And this gets to what, at bottom, is wrong with the patent system: We issue patents too easily for trivial ideas, thus diminishing protection for true breakthrough ideas. Patents are meant to be useful. Yet most studies show that something like 95% of all patents have never been used in any product and have created zero economic value. Nor, as far as anyone can tell, have they ever been used as evidence in a patent lawsuit. They are evolutionary dead ends. Patents are government-sanctioned short-term monopolies, and not supposed to be "obvious to those skilled in the art." Yet, anecdotally, all VCs remember days when a half-dozen companies pitching the same idea, in the same market, using the identical technological approach, appeared at their doorstep seeking investment. Isn't that what is meant by "obvious"? None of these companies should be granted IP to exclude their competitors. They should compete instead on execution. SCIENCE OR INVENTION? More quantitatively, I have observed firsthand how easy it is for experts to generate good, but similar, ideas. While at AT&T (T ) in the early 1990s, I sponsored two separate ideation sessions around a potential new market, bringing in 50 experts each time to brainstorm for applications. Both groups generated ideas with real commercial value. Both groups, however, generated more than 95% of the same ideas in common. They were "obvious" in the fullest sense of the word and would have been commercialized with or without the incentive of a patent. But the Patent Office found them "novel," and issued AT&T claims by the basketful. I would argue that none of those ideas deserved a patent. And much of what the Patent Office sees as invention is merely science applied to a new field by equation or analogy. At AT&T, we took old microwave patents and filed identical claims on optical inventions, which are also radio waves, only 10,000 times smaller. We were able to do this even though it was obvious to anyone who ever picked up a physics textbook that once you have the ability to make things smaller, the physics just translates over. RADICAL SIMPLIFICATION. The solution is for the Patent Office to set the bar much higher for new patents. It should reject applications for ideas anyone well versed in the art would automatically develop, once faced with that problem. That includes minor changes in size, shape, or properties whose impact is definitely predicted by science, as well as eliminating entire classes of ideas that are "in the air." The Patent Office should invite third-party comments and expert testimony as soon as the patent filing is made public. These communities have much greater knowledge than the Patent Office about what's truly new, and will help raise the bar for everyone. Such radical simplification would have a huge positive impact on both innovation and economic growth: ? It would encourage people to work on hard problems -- without the fear that someone else could capture the lion's share of the benefit with a trivial variation on their pioneering idea. ? It would speed the patent-granting process, aligning business timescales with IP timescales. ? It would give companies and their investors IP certainty they could bank on. ? It would reduce the number of patent cases that go to court -- a huge waste of time and money for society. INTERNATIONAL DIALOGUE. A patent is a license to exclude others from practicing your invention, but businesses need freedom to operate. A broad patent would repel competitors from blocking its value with trivial variations. Instead of applying for 10 minor patents, inventors would apply for just one of true economic value. The flow of information surrounding invention would accelerate -- and so would innovation. In such a scenario, America would become the gold standard for patents. Other countries might continue the practice of patenting the hair-splitting and trivial. But as it became clear that a U.S. patent was the strongest in the world -- the one that attracts capital -- the discipline would win worldwide recognition. Moreover, countries like China and India, which are just agreeing to respect intellectual property, would be much easier to engage in dialogue if infringement were clear and the number of issues reduced. LESS IS MORE. Patent simplification, as I have outlined it, presents some problems. For example, the greater barriers to patents would probably require higher upfront costs -- perhaps too much for lone inventors to pay. But these are details that stand a good chance of resolving themselves. For instance, a group of patent lawyers might emerge who would represent such money-strapped individuals on a contingency basis. After all, the resulting patent would cut a clearing in the forest, where new economic growth could thrive. Higher standards and greater simplicity are the path to a better patent system -- for our nation and for its inventors. In my case, probably no more than a dozen of my 70 patents would reach this bar. Yet they would be more valuable in the end. Sometimes more isn't better. From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Wed Dec 21 09:52:57 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Wed Dec 21 09:58:25 2005 Subject: [LINK] Terms and Conditions on Yahoo Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20051221095001.0223bca8@popa.melbpc.org.au> I'm just reading the T&Cs of Yahoo Inc and came across this little gem: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ You agree to not use the Service to: l. provide material support or resources (or to conceal or disguise the nature, location, source, or ownership of material support or resources) to any organization(s) designated by the United States government as a foreign terrorist organization pursuant to section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act; I guess this is to protect the company from attack from the US govt should someone from one of these designated groups use the service for naughty things. Jan JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From kauer at biplane.com.au Wed Dec 21 10:26:10 2005 From: kauer at biplane.com.au (Karl Auer) Date: Wed Dec 21 10:26:52 2005 Subject: [LINK] Terms and Conditions on Yahoo In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20051221095001.0223bca8@popa.melbpc.org.au> References: <6.0.3.0.0.20051221095001.0223bca8@popa.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <20051221102610.5a4357af.kauer@biplane.com.au> On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:52:57 +1100, Jan Whitaker wrote: > You agree to not use the Service to: > l. provide material support or resources (or to conceal or disguise the > nature, location, source, or ownership of material support or resources) to > any organization(s) designated by the United States government as a foreign > terrorist organization pursuant to section 219 of the Immigration and > Nationality Act; I like the fact that if you are a *US* terrorist organisation, even one *designated by the US Government*, you are under no such restriction :-) Only foreign terrorist organisations are covered. Regards, K. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au) +61-2-64957160 (w/h) http://www.biplane.com.au/~kauer/ +61-428-957160 (mob) From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Wed Dec 21 10:51:09 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Wed Dec 21 10:57:22 2005 Subject: [LINK] Terms and Conditions on Yahoo In-Reply-To: <20051221102610.5a4357af.kauer@biplane.com.au> References: <6.0.3.0.0.20051221095001.0223bca8@popa.melbpc.org.au> <20051221102610.5a4357af.kauer@biplane.com.au> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20051221105015.06bc7b18@popa.melbpc.org.au> At 10:26 AM 21/12/2005, you wrote: >On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:52:57 +1100, Jan Whitaker wrote: > > You agree to not use the Service to: > > l. provide material support or resources (or to conceal or disguise the > > nature, location, source, or ownership of material support or > resources) to > > any organization(s) designated by the United States government as a > foreign > > terrorist organization pursuant to section 219 of the Immigration and > > Nationality Act; > >I like the fact that if you are a *US* terrorist organisation, even one >*designated by the US Government*, you are under no such restriction :-) >Only foreign terrorist organisations are covered. > >Regards, K. > Good one, Karl. Of course there are no terrorists in the US, only 'freedom fighters', white hats, oh, and Timothy McVeigh. JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From link at todd.inoz.com Wed Dec 21 20:11:41 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Wed Dec 21 20:24:11 2005 Subject: [LINK] Terms and Conditions on Yahoo In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20051221105015.06bc7b18@popa.melbpc.org.au> References: <6.0.3.0.0.20051221095001.0223bca8@popa.melbpc.org.au> <20051221102610.5a4357af.kauer@biplane.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20051221105015.06bc7b18@popa.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051221201108.032a9cd8@wheresmymailserver.com> At 10:51 AM 21/12/2005, Jan Whitaker wrote: >At 10:26 AM 21/12/2005, you wrote: > >>On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:52:57 +1100, Jan Whitaker wrote: >> > You agree to not use the Service to: >> > l. provide material support or resources (or to conceal or disguise the >> > nature, location, source, or ownership of material support or >> resources) to >> > any organization(s) designated by the United States government as a >> foreign >> > terrorist organization pursuant to section 219 of the Immigration and >> > Nationality Act; >> >>I like the fact that if you are a *US* terrorist organisation, even one >>*designated by the US Government*, you are under no such restriction :-) >>Only foreign terrorist organisations are covered. >> >>Regards, K. > >Good one, Karl. Of course there are no terrorists in the US, only 'freedom >fighters', white hats, oh, and Timothy McVeigh. DAMN! He beat me to it! I've been saying that for months! So does that mean if you are an Australian from South Eastern Sydney .... From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Wed Dec 21 21:03:20 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Wed Dec 21 20:54:32 2005 Subject: [LINK] Terms and Conditions on Yahoo In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20051221201108.032a9cd8@wheresmymailserver.com> References: <6.0.3.0.0.20051221095001.0223bca8@popa.melbpc.org.au> <20051221102610.5a4357af.kauer@biplane.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20051221105015.06bc7b18@popa.melbpc.org.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051221201108.032a9cd8@wheresmymailserver.com> Message-ID: <43A92868.5050801@ozemail.com.au> Adam Todd wrote: > At 10:51 AM 21/12/2005, Jan Whitaker wrote: > >> At 10:26 AM 21/12/2005, you wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:52:57 +1100, Jan Whitaker >>> wrote: >>> > You agree to not use the Service to: >>> > l. provide material support or resources (or to conceal or >>> disguise the >>> > nature, location, source, or ownership of material support or >>> resources) to >>> > any organization(s) designated by the United States government as >>> a foreign >>> > terrorist organization pursuant to section 219 of the Immigration and >>> > Nationality Act; >>> >>> I like the fact that if you are a *US* terrorist organisation, even >>> one *designated by the US Government*, you are under no such >>> restriction :-) Only foreign terrorist organisations are covered. >>> >>> Regards, K. >> >> >> Good one, Karl. Of course there are no terrorists in the US, only >> 'freedom fighters', white hats, oh, and Timothy McVeigh. > > > DAMN! He beat me to it! I've been saying that for months! > > > So does that mean if you are an Australian from South Eastern Sydney .... ...you're not racist. Just a surfie. Didn't you know that, AT? (Of course surfies are not racist. They also hassle people who are too pale. No sunburn = not a local.) RC > > > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > From link at todd.inoz.com Wed Dec 21 23:02:54 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Wed Dec 21 23:10:09 2005 Subject: [LINK] Terms and Conditions on Yahoo In-Reply-To: <43A92868.5050801@ozemail.com.au> References: <6.0.3.0.0.20051221095001.0223bca8@popa.melbpc.org.au> <20051221102610.5a4357af.kauer@biplane.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20051221105015.06bc7b18@popa.melbpc.org.au> <6.2.0.14.0.20051221201108.032a9cd8@wheresmymailserver.com> <43A92868.5050801@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20051221230203.0546d490@wheresmymailserver.com> At 09:03 PM 21/12/2005, rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: >Adam Todd wrote: >>At 10:51 AM 21/12/2005, Jan Whitaker wrote: >>>At 10:26 AM 21/12/2005, you wrote: >>>>On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:52:57 +1100, Jan Whitaker >>>>wrote: >>>> > You agree to not use the Service to: >>>> > l. provide material support or resources (or to conceal or disguise the >>>> > nature, location, source, or ownership of material support or >>>> resources) to >>>> > any organization(s) designated by the United States government as a >>>> foreign >>>> > terrorist organization pursuant to section 219 of the Immigration and >>>> > Nationality Act; >>>> >>>>I like the fact that if you are a *US* terrorist organisation, even one >>>>*designated by the US Government*, you are under no such restriction >>>>:-) Only foreign terrorist organisations are covered. >>>> >>>>Regards, K. >>> >>> >>>Good one, Karl. Of course there are no terrorists in the US, only >>>'freedom fighters', white hats, oh, and Timothy McVeigh. >> >> >>DAMN! He beat me to it! I've been saying that for months! >> >> >>So does that mean if you are an Australian from South Eastern Sydney .... > >...you're not racist. Just a surfie. Didn't you know that, AT? Surfie? Me? I can't even ride aboard! >(Of course surfies are not racist. They also hassle people who are too >pale. No sunburn = not a local.) Ahhh, good thing I'm naturally dark :) I guess that means my wife gets beaten up and I don't! Depending on what part of Sydney we're in :) From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Thu Dec 22 08:01:53 2005 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Thu Dec 22 08:02:32 2005 Subject: [LINK] Privacy International Message-ID: Privacy International conducts campaigns and research throughout the world on issues ranging from wiretapping and national security, to ID cards, video surveillance, data matching, medical privacy, and freedom of information and expression. See http://www.privacyinternational.org/. One of many valuable contributions is its work with EPIC on an annual survey of worldwide developments in privacy and human rights, including reports on the situation in over 60 countries. See http://www.privacyinternational.org/survey/ The organisation is seeking financial support. The donations-page is at: http://www.privacyinternational.org/support -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Fri Dec 23 15:43:26 2005 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Fri Dec 23 15:43:40 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: MR71-05: Consumer code development costs to be reimbursed References: <04827880011353024284131@subscribedmailings.com> Message-ID: <26CE7D62-E3AF-4F17-AB49-26347D00008D@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Begin forwarded message: > From: "Australian Communications & Media Authority" > > Date: 23 December 2005 12:47:08 PM > To: > Subject: MR71-05: Consumer code development costs to be reimbursed > Reply-To: broadcasting@acma.gov.au > > > Industry bodies and associations involved in the development of > consumer-related telecommunications industry codes will be entitled > to reimbursement of their costs under a new scheme beginning 23 > March 2006. The full media release can be viewed at http:// > www.acma.gov.au/ACMAINTER:STANDARD::pc=PC_100397. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------- > UNSUBSCRIBE INFORMATION > This email was sent to tony@tony-barry.emu.id.au, by
Mailing > list manager. > To opt-out of any future messages, please use the url below:- > http://elmn.com/?0056539201595tony@tony-barry.emu.id.au > We will respect your decision to receive no further emails from us. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------- > > phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From lannet at lannet.com.au Fri Dec 23 20:31:03 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Fri Dec 23 20:31:23 2005 Subject: [LINK] Felicitations... Message-ID: <43ABC3D7.2040103@lannet.com.au> ...for whatever season you wish to celebrate, I think everyone on this list must have taken off already... -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you want a computer system that works, just choose Linux; When you want a computer system that works, just, choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; abolish the Australian states. From hartr at interweft.com.au Sat Dec 24 00:12:14 2005 From: hartr at interweft.com.au (Robert Hart) Date: Sat Dec 24 00:12:20 2005 Subject: [LINK] Felicitations... In-Reply-To: <43ABC3D7.2040103@lannet.com.au> References: <43ABC3D7.2040103@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <43ABF7AE.6010502@interweft.com.au> Howard Lowndes wrote: > ..for whatever season you wish to celebrate, > > I think everyone on this list must have taken off already... > Not quite - felicitations to all from Brisbane. -- Robert Hart hartr@interweft.com.au +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au From stephen at melbpc.org.au Sat Dec 24 01:12:13 2005 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley) Date: Sat Dec 24 01:12:30 2005 Subject: [LINK] Felicitations... In-Reply-To: <43ABF7AE.6010502@interweft.com.au> References: <43ABC3D7.2040103@lannet.com.au> <43ABC3D7.2040103@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <20051223141216.6DA401408C@vscan41.melbpc.org.au> Robert Hart wrote: > Howard Lowndes wrote: > >> .. for whatever season you wish to celebrate, >> >> I think everyone on this list must have taken off already... >> > > Not quite - felicitations to all from Brisbane. > Here as well .. with a clever 3min yule video :-) Cheers all .. Stephen Loosley From link at todd.inoz.com Sat Dec 24 10:05:45 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Sat Dec 24 11:00:42 2005 Subject: [LINK] Felicitations... In-Reply-To: <43ABC3D7.2040103@lannet.com.au> References: <43ABC3D7.2040103@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.1.20051224100437.04e107b8@pop> At 08:31 PM 23/12/2005, Howard Lowndes wrote: >...for whatever season you wish to celebrate, > >I think everyone on this list must have taken off already... No, I'm still here. Not going anywhere, lots of work to do over Christmas and New Year. But Stay safe to all the Happy Linkers! From bpa at iss.net.au Sat Dec 24 11:09:05 2005 From: bpa at iss.net.au (Brenda Aynsley) Date: Sat Dec 24 11:09:24 2005 Subject: [LINK] Felicitations... In-Reply-To: <20051223141216.6DA401408C@vscan41.melbpc.org.au> References: <43ABC3D7.2040103@lannet.com.au> <43ABC3D7.2040103@lannet.com.au> <20051223141216.6DA401408C@vscan41.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <43AC91A1.2050007@iss.net.au> Stephen Loosley wrote: > > Here as well .. with a clever 3min yule video :-) > > I'll take the greeting and share it with you all, but on a dialup in Melbourne I'll pass on the 3 minute yule video - how big is it anyway? Merry Christmas cheers brenda -- Brenda Aynsley, FACS Chairman ACS SA http://www.acs.org.au/ Mobile:+61(0) 412 662 988 || Skype: callto://baynsley Phone:08 8357 8844 Fax:08 8272 7486 Nodephone:08 7127 0107 Oz Business Partners http://www.ozbusinesspartners.com/ From rick at praxis.com.au Sat Dec 24 13:41:29 2005 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Sat Dec 24 13:41:59 2005 Subject: [LINK] Felicitations... In-Reply-To: <43AC91A1.2050007@iss.net.au> References: <43ABC3D7.2040103@lannet.com.au> <43ABC3D7.2040103@lannet.com.au> <20051223141216.6DA401408C@vscan41.melbpc.org.au> <43AC91A1.2050007@iss.net.au> Message-ID: <43ACB559.6010509@praxis.com.au> Brenda Aynsley wrote: > Stephen Loosley wrote: > >> >> Here as well .. with a clever 3min