From lannet at lannet.com.au Sun May 1 10:48:11 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Sun May 1 10:48:58 2005 Subject: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... Message-ID: <4274274B.5010403@lannet.com.au> ...I decided to follow up some investigation on one of the myriad of spam emails which I (along with everyone else) receives. I thought the domain name (tnhoklsq.com) looked manufactured but I attempted to do a whois on it, and drew a blank at whois.internic.net. Normally when I do a whois it will take me off to the relevant registrar's whois database via whois-servers.net. So it appears that this domain name is not in any registrar's database, well, none that are visible. Doing a dig came up with an IP address, as you would expect, but doing a reverse dns on that IP drew a blank, as you might also expect. Doing a whois on the IP came up with a /11 block assigned to China Railway Telecommunications Center. I also did a whois on the name server domain name (aicstrungcb.biz) and came up with that being registered to somewhere in Russia, and registered only 2 weeks ago. Is it a fact that domain name registrars do not have to make their databases publicly available? Should we be looking to enter into an FTA with a country whose railway system supports spammers? -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From dlochrin at d2.net.au Sun May 1 20:08:59 2005 From: dlochrin at d2.net.au (David Lochrin) Date: Sun May 1 20:10:58 2005 Subject: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... In-Reply-To: <4274274B.5010403@lannet.com.au> References: <4274274B.5010403@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <200505012008.59784.dlochrin@d2.net.au> On Sun, 1 May 2005 10:48, Howard Lowndes wrote: > ...I decided to follow up some investigation on one of the myriad of > spam emails which I (along with everyone else) receives. I've done similar things, mainly with a view to devising a filter which will divert spam into a separate folder. Most of the spam emails I receive now have garbage subject lines which, judging by the content, probably consist of characters from Asian Unicode planes without the introducer which (I think) should prefix each two-octet encoding on the subject line. Kmail running in this Linux system (:-) supports regular expressions in filters. So I simply test whether received emails are enveloped to 'dlochrin@dot.net.au' (which is the address attracting all the spam) and the 'subject' line matches the regular expression [^a-z0-9]{7,} ? - in other words, whether it includes at least seven consecutive characters not contained in the class 'a-z' and '0-9'. ?Works a treat! ? ?Every morning I get around 60 spams, depending how long it is since my computer has been on the 'net. ?But they're all neatly lined up in the SPAM folder so I can click on the select-all and delete buttons I've configured on the main menu to dispatch them to the bit-bucket!! My ISP is now filtering this curse. The spam IP-address list maintained by SPEWS http://www.spews.org/ seems to be in wide use, and their website allows querying of their database. It could be a bit coarse though - I discovered emails to me from a large US software & service provider were being filtered out because a whole class-B address space was blocked, presumably because a spammer was using their ISP service. ADL From lannet at lannet.com.au Mon May 2 08:41:19 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Mon May 2 08:41:36 2005 Subject: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... In-Reply-To: <200505012008.59784.dlochrin@d2.net.au> References: <4274274B.5010403@lannet.com.au> <200505012008.59784.dlochrin@d2.net.au> Message-ID: <42755B0F.5010509@lannet.com.au> David Lochrin wrote: > My ISP is now filtering this curse. The spam IP-address list maintained by SPEWS http://www.spews.org/ seems to be in wide use, and their website allows querying of their database. It could be a bit coarse though - I discovered emails to me from a large US software & service provider were being filtered out because a whole class-B address space was blocked, presumably because a spammer was using their ISP service. That in itself is a problem. I have one fairly large site that has a static IP and definitly does not spew out spam, but some how it has got into an RBL used by Optusnet and so all email from the site to Optusnet gets rejected. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From lannet at lannet.com.au Mon May 2 09:16:36 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Mon May 2 09:17:38 2005 Subject: [LINK] Re: [Oz-ISP] Just out of curiosity... In-Reply-To: <20050501102038.GA9024@milliways.doc.net.au> References: <4274274B.5010403@lannet.com.au> <20050501102038.GA9024@milliways.doc.net.au> Message-ID: <42756354.8050502@lannet.com.au> It's interesting that you were able to get whois to come up with the data yet the version I am using, packaged with FC3, does not. Scott Howard wrote: > On Sun, May 01, 2005 at 10:48:11AM +1000, Howard Lowndes wrote: > >>I thought the domain name (tnhoklsq.com) looked manufactured but I >>attempted to do a whois on it, and drew a blank at whois.internic.net. >>Normally when I do a whois it will take me off to the relevant >>registrar's whois database via whois-servers.net. So it appears that >>this domain name is not in any registrar's database, well, none that are >>visible. > > > Registrar: INTERCOSMOS MEDIA GROUP, INC. D/B/A DIRECTNIC.COM > Whois-Server:whois.directnic.com > ---------------------------------------- > Registration and WHOIS Service Provided By: directNIC.com > > Intercosmos Media Group, Inc. provides the data in the directNIC.com > Registrar WHOIS database for informational purposes only. The information > may only be used to assist in obtaining information about a domain name's > registration record. > > directNIC makes this information available "as is," and does not guarantee > its accuracy. > > Registrant: > NA > Borovskoe shosse 25, 2 > Moscow, MSK 119633 > RU > 79268710023 > > > Domain Name: TNHOKLSQ.COM > > Administrative Contact: > Mahmutov, Ibragim ibragimmahmutovv@yahoo.com > Borovskoe shosse 25, 2 > Moscow, MSK 119633 > RU > 79268710023 > > > Technical Contact: > Mahmutov, Ibragim ibragimmahmutovv@yahoo.com > Borovskoe shosse 25, 2 > Moscow, MSK 119633 > RU > 79268710023 > > > Record expires on 04-30-2006 > Record created on 04-30-2005 > > Domain servers in listed order: > ALLADIN.AICSTRUNGCB.BIZ 202.99.172.145 > GINNY.AICSTRUNGCB.BIZ 200.149.11.62 > > >>Should we be looking to enter into an FTA with a country whose railway >>system supports spammers? > > > Ohh please. So we should instantly cut off all trade with any country > who happens to have one of their citizens send out some spam? > > Scott > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From Evan.ARTHUR at Dest.gov.au Mon May 2 09:51:51 2005 From: Evan.ARTHUR at Dest.gov.au (Evan.ARTHUR@Dest.gov.au) Date: Mon May 2 09:51:56 2005 Subject: [LINK] European libraries join forces against Google Message-ID: <200505012351.j41Npp2R018904@name-ext2.dewr.gov.au> Robert Hart wrote < Linux grows up KEITH POWER CFO 1 May 2005 http://www.cfoweb.com.au/freearticle.aspx?relId=13205 Open source computing is gaining acceptance as companies trust it with mission-critical applications Many organisations, and governments in particular, are looking to open standards-based software or open source computing as a means to drive down their IT costs and avoid being tied to one vendor. In June 2004, the NSW Roads and Traffic Authority (RTA) began one of the largest rollouts of open source-based software in the NSW Government. The $1.5-million project has initially involved switching 1500 motor registry staff in 120 offices from Microsoft Exchange to the Sun Java System Messaging and Calendar Servers system for e-mail and calendar-keeping purposes. The RTA has deployed Mozilla, an open source browser, and Mozilla Mail Client to enable staff to access their e-mail and calendar information. Sun's StarOffice desktop suite has also been rolled out to motor registry managers for word processing, spreadsheets and presentation development. The new system is based on a centralised server model, and the RTA has deployed 12 Sun servers running on Linux, an open-source operating system. The RTA is also deploying the Sun Java System Portal Server, Sun Java System Directory Server Enterprise Edition and Sun Java System Identity Manager to provide portal and identity management capabilities. Following the implementation of an integrated SAP system for human resources, payroll, financials and employee self-service in March 2002, the RTA identified the need for motor registry staff to have e-mail and desktop computing facilities. According to Greg Carvouni, chief information officer, RTA, cost was a fundamental driver in exploring open source, given the scale of the deployment. "The RTA wanted to move to an open-standards based system on the desktop to cut its escalating software and maintenance costs. The RTA expects to reduce desktop and server costs by at least 20% with the migration to Sun's open source-based Sun Java System Messaging Server and StarOffice. "Savings of up to $2 million a year could be realised when the implementation of this technology is extended to connect up to half of the RTA's 7000 desktops in the next few years," Carvouni says. By moving to a centralised server model, the RTA also hopes to reduce labour and travel costs associated with supporting a distributed system, particularly given the remote location of some motor registries, as well as improve operating performance. Another driver was security, specifically not being exposed to bugs and viruses, for which Microsoft products are renowned. As Carvouni says, if a front office of a motor registry were to be infected, it would mean the front office shutting down and customers put out the door. A challenge with open source software, though, according to Carvouni, is that SAP products, for example, have been refined to work with Microsoft and market leader products, but do not interface or work so well with Mozilla and StarOffice and require doctoring. This is something that the large vendors must address, he says. "Calendaring" is also a big issue at present, given that 1500 people in the RTA are on Sun and 5500 are on Microsoft. "If I want to invite you to a meeting and you're on the other system, you can't see your calendar. It doesn't come up as an invitation," Carvouni says. "So you get an e-mail message that says Greg wants you to come to a meeting in two weeks' time. "You then have to open your calendar, see if you're free, and reply to my e-mail. Not convenient, but for people who are at the front counter and don't go to many meetings, it's an acceptable outcome because it's minimal impact. I wouldn't launch it in the middle of the Roads and Traffic Authority, though," Carvouni says. He also advises others going down the open source path to first undertake a robust pilot project, as did the RTA, and learn how ready the products really are. However, according to Jim Hassell, managing director, Sun Microsystems, the RTA's project sends a clear message to the whole industry that it is possible to move to open desktop systems. "By moving to Sun Java System software and StarOffice, the RTA is free to choose from a vast range of software alternatives [in the future]," Hassell claims. In the private sector, Coates Hire has identified open source computing as being best aligned with its business strategy of doubling in size by 2010, according to Tony Yortis, CHERP (Coates Hire enterprise resource planning) program manager. Coates Hire is Australia's largest equipment hire company. CHERP, says Yortis, is about taking a business that has seven different units, all operating autonomously, on to a common platform to drive synergy and efficiencies throughout the organisation, harmonise processes throughout and standardise the underlying technologies. "This will enable us to provide better information and frameworks for faster decision-making, and also improve business efficiencies, so transaction processing improves," he says. To help achieve this and build a firm foundation for growth, both organically and through acquisitions, Coates has recently implemented the Oracle E-Business Suite with "real application clusters" and Oracle Data Warehouse on Dell hardware running Red Hat Enterprise Linux. "Not only does Oracle's database clustering technology equip us with a robust and reliable platform for our data, but we can also add and remove Dell hardware within the cluster without experiencing disruption to the service. This has valuable implications for disaster recovery. [Also] the ability to upgrade your infrastructure to support growth doesn't become a bureaucratic issue every time you need to expand. It's just plug-and-play," Yortis says. Linux and its maturation was also an important factor in the choice of solution, according to Yortis. "Three years ago, I would have been hesitant to move mission-critical applications on to the Linux platform. Now, if you look at the strategic direction of major hardware vendors such as Dell, they are not only endorsing but also investing in the Linux platform. Going with open source now, we know that our information strategy or technology directions are totally in line with where the business needs to be," he says. However, Yortis cautions organisations that have a lot of intellectual property in their legacy systems to ensure that, as they switch to open source, the new technologies can support what has been custom-built over many years. He also thinks it important to recognise that the technology is not the be-all and end-all. The project was driven from the top, with Malcolm Jackman, Coates Hire CEO, acting as project sponsor and chairing a steering committee that reported directly to the board. Brian Mitchell, managing director of Oracle Australia and New Zealand, and David Miller, vice-president and managing director of Dell Australia and New Zealand, also attended regular meetings with Jackman to review progress. -- The trick is growing up without growing old. -- Casey Stengel Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From chris at sw.oz.au Mon May 2 12:30:52 2005 From: chris at sw.oz.au (Chris Maltby) Date: Mon May 2 12:31:47 2005 Subject: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... In-Reply-To: <42755B0F.5010509@lannet.com.au> References: <4274274B.5010403@lannet.com.au> <200505012008.59784.dlochrin@d2.net.au> <42755B0F.5010509@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <20050502023052.GC22968@aurema.com> > David Lochrin wrote: >> My ISP is now filtering this curse. The spam IP-address list >> maintained by SPEWS http://www.spews.org/ seems to be in wide use, and >> their website allows querying of their database. It could be a bit >> coarse though - I discovered emails to me from a large US software & >> service provider were being filtered out because a whole class-B >> address space was blocked, presumably because a spammer was using their >> ISP service. David, get a new ISP as soon as you can... On Mon, May 02, 2005 at 08:41:19AM +1000, Howard Lowndes wrote: > That in itself is a problem. I have one fairly large site that has a > static IP and definitly does not spew out spam, but some how it has got > into an RBL used by Optusnet and so all email from the site to Optusnet > gets rejected. I'm with Howard on this one. Our /24 range (assigned in the early 90's was added to the SPEWS list a couple of years ago on the grounds that the containing /20 range was "owned" by an ISP who was friendly to spammers. My guess is that someone reported spam from separate addresses within the supposed /20 block and they listed it without even doing a basic check in APNIC's whois database - there is no containing block defined there except APNIC's 202.0.0.0/7! Now getting yourself off the SPEWS list is not exactly a transparent process, and even suggesting that they might have made a mistake led to receiving a lot of threats and email abuse from morons. The only slightly less moronic suggested I should change to a different ISP (disregarding that it was my own assigned address block...). But so much for their supposed campaign in defence of email etiquette. The precautionary principle seems lost on these people, and the clueless ISP sysadmins who rely on dodgy RBLs are as bad if you ask me. If RBLs have a legitimate use it's in spam filter programs like spamassassin, by adding spam points to messages that have traversed suspect servers. A boolean block/pass action is just broken... Chris From cas at taz.net.au Mon May 2 16:06:01 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Mon May 2 16:04:43 2005 Subject: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... In-Reply-To: <20050502023052.GC22968@aurema.com> References: <4274274B.5010403@lannet.com.au> <200505012008.59784.dlochrin@d2.net.au> <42755B0F.5010509@lannet.com.au> <20050502023052.GC22968@aurema.com> Message-ID: <20050502060601.GA3761@taz.net.au> On Mon, May 02, 2005 at 12:30:52PM +1000, Chris Maltby wrote: > I'm with Howard on this one. Our /24 range (assigned in the early > 90's was added to the SPEWS list a couple of years ago on the grounds > that the containing /20 range was "owned" by an ISP who was friendly > to spammers. My guess is that someone reported spam from separate > addresses within the supposed /20 block and they listed it without > even doing a basic check in APNIC's whois database - there is no > containing block defined there except APNIC's 202.0.0.0/7! SPEWS make mistakes from time to time. deal with it. it's not the end of the world, and they DO correct their mistakes. of course, you could make a mistake of your own and act like a belligerent arsehole when reporting their error - that's bound to get prompt and courteous service in response, isn't it? the only people i've ever seen who have had a problem getting SPEWS mistakes corrected are: 1. spammers and spam-haven ISPs 2. obnoxious jerks who think that rudeness will work > The precautionary principle seems lost on these people, you are missing the point of SPEWS. it is their deliberate policy to prevent ISPs from avoiding responsibility for their spamming customers by progressively blacklisting more and more of the ISP's network the longer they refuse to take any action against their spammers. like it or not, this is a remarkably effective tool. it is about the only thing that will get spam-haven ISPs to finally get rid of their scumbag spammer customers. > and the clueless ISP sysadmins who rely on dodgy RBLs are as bad if > you ask me. it's not cluelessness, it's just agreeing with the aims of SPEWS and believing that the end justifies the means, that it is worth the "price". this is a matter of values, a subjective decision. you may make a different value judgement, but that doesn't make anyone who disagrees with you "clueless". > > If RBLs have a legitimate use it's in spam filter programs like > spamassassin, by adding spam points to messages that have traversed > suspect servers. A boolean block/pass action is just broken... actually, it's not broken. it is incredibly useful. for example, if you don't want to receive mail from dynamic/dialup IP addresses, use one of the DUL RBLs similarly, if you happen to agree with SPEWS policy of blacklisting entire ISPs when they prove themselves to be either spam-havens or too incompetent or slack to do anything about spammers on their network, then use one of the SPEWS RBLs. in both cases, you get to avoid wasting CPU time doing spamassassin checks etc on them...when you are blocking 10s or 100s of thousands or even millions of spams per day then you really learn to appreciate anything which reduces the spam-related workload on your mail server. after all, you want to run a mail server that's actually capable of sending and receiving mail, as well as spam-filtering. spamassassin should be the LAST stage of spam-filtering, *after* all the smtp-level blocks which reject mail outright (local blacklists, rbls, policy rules, etc) and here's the really interesting bit: if you don't agree with SPEWS' policies, then don't use their RBLs. easy, isn't it? YOUR mail server, YOUR choice. oh, and quit whining about what other people choose as policy on their machines - THEIR mail server, THEIR choice. they get to decide what mail they want to receive on their machine, not you. craig ps: what's that complaint now? you don't get to choose because you're an end-user using your ISP's mail server and they do/don't use RBLs? well, tough. either try to convince them that you're right (you better know what you're talking about, though), choose another ISP that does exactly what you want, or run your own mail server. if you're willing to trust someone else with your mail service, then you get what they are willing to provide - the good and the bad. -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From chris at sw.oz.au Mon May 2 17:01:14 2005 From: chris at sw.oz.au (Chris Maltby) Date: Mon May 2 17:01:44 2005 Subject: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... In-Reply-To: <20050502060601.GA3761@taz.net.au> References: <4274274B.5010403@lannet.com.au> <200505012008.59784.dlochrin@d2.net.au> <42755B0F.5010509@lannet.com.au> <20050502023052.GC22968@aurema.com> <20050502060601.GA3761@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <20050502070114.GE22968@aurema.com> > On Mon, May 02, 2005 at 12:30:52PM +1000, Chris Maltby wrote: > > I'm with Howard on this one. Our /24 range (assigned in the early > > 90's was added to the SPEWS list a couple of years ago on the grounds > > that the containing /20 range was "owned" by an ISP who was friendly > > to spammers. My guess is that someone reported spam from separate > > addresses within the supposed /20 block and they listed it without > > even doing a basic check in APNIC's whois database - there is no > > containing block defined there except APNIC's 202.0.0.0/7! On Mon, May 02, 2005 at 04:06:01PM +1000, Craig Sanders wrote: > SPEWS make mistakes from time to time. deal with it. it's not the end > of the world, and they DO correct their mistakes. > > of course, you could make a mistake of your own and act like a > belligerent arsehole when reporting their error - that's bound to get > prompt and courteous service in response, isn't it? > > the only people i've ever seen who have had a problem getting SPEWS > mistakes corrected are: > > 1. spammers and spam-haven ISPs > 2. obnoxious jerks who think that rudeness will work Craig, You are entitled to your opinion, but you sound just like the jerks who flamed me for suggesting that it was even possible for SPEWS to make a mistake, let alone a really stupid mistake. I maintain that it is not helpful to anyone to provide a relay blocking service which allows the addition of bogus netblocks. I further maintain that people who rely on an essentially unreliable service to screen email are also mistaken. As for rudeness; I may have been curt but I felt that in the circumstances curtness was justified. These clueless people and the clueless ISP who hosted my correspondent had just mistakenly disrupted a legitimate email conversation because they had failed to take an elementary precaution before adding a netblock and an RBL service respectively. It would have been easy for this scenario to have imposed serious costs on my employer - that it didn't was because I was able to track it down fairly quickly. Because of _their_ mistake, the lucky beneficiary gets to try to track down someone to alert, which is not easy (and you're in their stupid RBL as well). They don't advertise a point of contact, their FAQ suggests you can "discuss" their listings in an anti-spam USENET newsgroup but that it won't have any effect. When I took their advice and raised the matter in the newsgroup, I had to endure the ravings of their moronic supporters who were certain that it had to be my fault, even when the subsequent de-listing proved that it wasn't. The only thing that can be said in their favour was that after I had wasted half a day diagnosing the problem, they removed the bogus block without too much delay - but also without any notification... Chris PS Here is my original posting: > From: chris@sw.oz.au (Chris Maltby) > Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.email > Subject: Added to SPEWS - someone didn't bother to check address range > Date: 14 May 2002 18:58:18 -0700 > > SPEWS has the following listing: > > 1, 203.31.80.0 - 203.31.97.255, Aussie porn spamhaus/mailmediapro.com/listmanpro.com > > This alleged range includes 203.31.96/24 which is definitely not a porn > spamhaus, or anything to do with the two listed addresses, as a quick > check of arin/apnic will reveal: > > inetnum: 203.31.96.0 - 203.31.96.255 > netname: SOFTWAY-AU > descr: Softway Pty. Limited > > I take anti-spam seriously, but it's bloody cowboys like SPEWS who give > credibility to the people who have closed down a number of the useful > RBL services. > > And you can't even mail the bastards to get your network off their list! > > Chris It turned out in the subsequent discussion that the spammers were coming from 203.31.88/23 - the rest of us were collateral damage... Oh, and my attitude to cowboy RBLs has hardened since then. From karl.auer at id.ethz.ch Mon May 2 18:02:39 2005 From: karl.auer at id.ethz.ch (Auer, Karl James) Date: Mon May 2 18:02:54 2005 Subject: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... Message-ID: <151A0967A7AEBE49BCF271F740CEEB0FF86C96@EX6.d.ethz.ch> Hi Craig. Normally I have the greatest respect for your views, but on this one: > prevent ISPs from avoiding responsibility for their spamming customers > by progressively blacklisting more and more of the ISP's network the > longer they refuse to take any action against their spammers. > > like it or not, this is a remarkably effective tool. it is about the > only thing that will get spam-haven ISPs to finally get rid of their > scumbag spammer customers. .. you are, I think, wrong. You say everyone can do what *they* like, because it's *their* system and *their* policy etc etc, but on that basis spam is OK too. I had my C-class network blocked by ORBS (way back when) because it was within a Telstra supernet and ORBS was blocking the entire supernet because Telstra was a "bad guy". There was nowhere else I could go for addresses at the time, no way I was going to change Telstra - so what could I do? SFA, that's what. It is unfair and *wrong* to accept collateral damage of this sort with a shrug of the shoulders. If I'm running my corner of the world properly, it is NOT right to make me responsible for the actions of others. To put it another way, if you are going to be a vigilante, make DAMN sure you lynch only the guilty. Did you ever have a teacher in school who made the whole class responsible for the actions of the few? Did it *ever* work? Sure never did in my school - the guilty didn't care and the non-guilty couldn't change anything. Just made us hate the teacher. BTW, I don't have a problem with a network being blocked when it is issuing spam. I DO have a problem with that network being blocked when not all of the network is in the same hands. Regards, K. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Karl Auer (karl.auer@id.ethz.ch) Geschaeft/work +41- 1-6327531 Kommunikation, ETHZ RZ Privat/home +41-43-2660706 Eidgenoessische Technische Hochschule, Zuerich Fax +41- 1-6321225 Clausiusstrasse 59 CH-8092 ZUERICH Switzerland From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Mon May 2 19:42:24 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Mon May 2 19:42:10 2005 Subject: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... In-Reply-To: <151A0967A7AEBE49BCF271F740CEEB0FF86C96@EX6.d.ethz.ch> References: <151A0967A7AEBE49BCF271F740CEEB0FF86C96@EX6.d.ethz.ch> Message-ID: <4275F600.5020507@ozemail.com.au> Karl, thanks for arguing what I was trying to formulate ... Auer, Karl James wrote: >Hi Craig. > >Normally I have the greatest respect for your views, but on this one: > > > >>prevent ISPs from avoiding responsibility for their spamming customers >>by progressively blacklisting more and more of the ISP's network the >>longer they refuse to take any action against their spammers. >> >>like it or not, this is a remarkably effective tool. it is about the >>only thing that will get spam-haven ISPs to finally get rid of their >>scumbag spammer customers. >> >> > >.. you are, I think, wrong. You say everyone can do what *they* like, >because it's *their* system and *their* policy etc etc, but on that >basis spam is OK too. > >I had my C-class network blocked by ORBS (way back when) because it was >within a Telstra supernet and ORBS was blocking the entire supernet >because Telstra was a "bad guy". There was nowhere else I could go for >addresses at the time, no way I was going to change Telstra - so what >could I do? SFA, that's what. > > And I've been in a workplace that copped an RBL ban. Not because (a) we issued spam or (b) we were on a guilty address block, but because the RBL in question set its policies with a bot that tested for "open relay" status. "So what, you shouldn't have had an open relay". We didn't: we had a mail anti-virus server which the damn RBL mis-identified as an open relay. After the RBL decided to accept our story, the admin's suggestion was that we ought to turn off the virus filter. And another: I once wrote about a spam RBL (AHBL) which blocked all of Spain. Here's the harshest sentence from the story: "Regardless of the reasons given from blocking Telefonica, the ABHL has far overstepped the boundaries of reasonable behaviour in placing what amounts to a ban on a country. If any government acted similarly, it would rightly be vilified on the international stage as censoring the Internet and restricting the freedoms of its citizens." The result was a storm of abusive messages because my story got put on a forum with the suggestion that adherents of the RBL "tell this guy what you think". Whether or not the notion of the blacklist is useful, blacklists are non-accontable and tend towards acting as "in groups". RC >It is unfair and *wrong* to accept collateral damage of this sort with a >shrug of the shoulders. If I'm running my corner of the world properly, >it is NOT right to make me responsible for the actions of others. To put >it another way, if you are going to be a vigilante, make DAMN sure you >lynch only the guilty. > >Did you ever have a teacher in school who made the whole class >responsible for the actions of the few? Did it *ever* work? Sure never >did in my school - the guilty didn't care and the non-guilty couldn't >change anything. Just made us hate the teacher. > >BTW, I don't have a problem with a network being blocked when it is >issuing spam. I DO have a problem with that network being blocked when >not all of the network is in the same hands. > >Regards, K. > > > From cas at taz.net.au Tue May 3 09:18:50 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Tue May 3 09:17:26 2005 Subject: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... In-Reply-To: <151A0967A7AEBE49BCF271F740CEEB0FF86C96@EX6.d.ethz.ch> References: <151A0967A7AEBE49BCF271F740CEEB0FF86C96@EX6.d.ethz.ch> Message-ID: <20050502231849.GJ18150@taz.net.au> On Mon, May 02, 2005 at 10:02:39AM +0200, Auer, Karl James wrote: > > prevent ISPs from avoiding responsibility for their spamming > > customers by progressively blacklisting more and more of the ISP's > > network the longer they refuse to take any action against their > > spammers. > > > > like it or not, this is a remarkably effective tool. it is about the > > only thing that will get spam-haven ISPs to finally get rid of their > > scumbag spammer customers. > > .. you are, I think, wrong. You say everyone can do what *they* like, > because it's *their* system and *their* policy etc etc, but on that > basis spam is OK too. no, because spam abuses other people's systems. a person has every right to decide what mail they will accept on their own system, they do not have any right to demand that someone else's system will accept their mail. the arguments against using RBLs all boil down to "i should have the right to demand that someone else accept my mail whether they want to or not" - which is exactly what spammers insist on. once you accept the right of someone to decide what their mail server will accept, then you have to accept all the consequences of that, even if it means they may choose to refuse YOUR mail or reject mail on silly or arbitrary criteria - it's their mail server, their choice. end of story. > I had my C-class network blocked by ORBS (way back when) because > it was within a Telstra supernet and ORBS was blocking the entire > supernet because Telstra was a "bad guy". There was nowhere else I > could go for addresses at the time, no way I was going to change > Telstra - so what could I do? SFA, that's what. if the listing was incorrect (e.g. because telstra didn't actually own the /24), then point it out to ORBS and get it corrected. they corrected their mistakes too. otherwise, complain to telstra, leave them, sue them, get together with other parties affected by telstra's spam-supporting habits and complain or leave or sue telstra for faulure to provide the quality service you paid for. BTW, telstra was not a monopoly for internet service or IP address space at the time ORBS existed. far from it. you had other options available, even if you didn't like them or they were more expensive or not as good or whatever. you chose to stay. > It is unfair and *wrong* to accept collateral damage of this sort with > a shrug of the shoulders. what you're forgetting is that it is the choice of the mail server operator to use or not use any given RBL. if they want to use an RBL, then they can - whether you like it or approve of it or not, because it's none of your business. you do not have a right to expect that anyone else will accept your mail. that is not your decision to make, ever, under ANY circumstances. > If I'm running my corner of the world properly, it is NOT right to > make me responsible for the actions of others. To put it another way, > if you are going to be a vigilante, make DAMN sure you lynch only the > guilty. if you are knowingly supporting a spam-haven ISP with your money then you are guilty. the RBL listing is, in part, your notification that you are financially supporting spammers. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Tue May 3 11:42:41 2005 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Tue May 3 11:42:49 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: [ausweb-l] AusWeb05 Conference Update Issue 9 Message-ID: <1a07eb18a91b2d72458168971b867234@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Begin forwarded message: > From: Kyona Luff > Date: 3 May 2005 11:20:13 AM > To: ausweb-l@scu.edu.au > Cc: Subject: [ausweb-l] AusWeb05 Conference Update Issue 9 > Reply-To: ausweb-l@scu.edu.au > > Conference Update > Volume 11, Issue 9 > ---------------------------- > IN THIS ISSUE > 1. Poster Submissions -A few presentation places still available > 2. Full Papers - Sample of Accepted Referred Paper Titles > 3. Reminder - Early Bird Registration Closes May 13th > > 1. Poster Submissions - A Few Presentation Places Still Available > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > We would like to thank everyone who has made a poster submission for > presentation at the Conference. The Program Chair has accepted or is > currently reviewing submissions received to date and as present it > looks like we will have a few presentation slots still available. If > you would like to submit a late poster for consideration please > contact the Program Chair, Andrew Treloar > found at http://ausweb.scu.edu.au/aw05/papers/submit.html. > > 2. Full Papers - Sample of Accepted Paper Titles > --------------------------------------------------- > A selection of accepted paper titles has now been linked off the > conference home page at > http://ausweb.scu.edu.au/aw05/papers/samples.html We invite you to > review the paper titles to give you an idea of the range of content > that will be presented. Copies of final html formatted papers are now > coming in and in the AusWeb tradition it is our aim to have all final > papers up on our Web server in early June, a month before the > conference, so that you can do some pre-reading and come along to the > conference ready with your questions and discussion points. > > 3. Early Bird Registration - Closes May 13th > ----------------------------------------------------------- > A reminder that early bird registration closes on May 13th!! Early > Bird Package 1 is INCLUSIVE of conference registration, conference > materials, two nights accommodation (Sunday July 3rd and Monday July > 4th), all meals from Sunday lunch to Tuesday afternoon tea, inclusive > of AusWeb breakfast, Conference Dinner and Conference BBQ. Full online > registration is available at > https://www.scupayments.com/conf/AusWeb05/ and we encourage you to > register now! > > Regards, > The AusWeb Team > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > If you would like to be removed from this list: > Reply to mailto:ausweb@scu.edu.au > Subject line: UNSUBSCRIBE AUSWEB-L > _______________________________________________ > ausweb-l mailing list > ausweb-l@lists.scu.edu.au > http://lists.scu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/ausweb-l > phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From lannet at lannet.com.au Tue May 3 13:43:17 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Tue May 3 13:43:35 2005 Subject: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... In-Reply-To: <20050502231849.GJ18150@taz.net.au> References: <151A0967A7AEBE49BCF271F740CEEB0FF86C96@EX6.d.ethz.ch> <20050502231849.GJ18150@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <4276F355.1030206@lannet.com.au> The problem with RBL blocking is the lack of granularity. I have a situation where one of my clients, on a static IP, has got into SORBS simply because a whole address block is in SORBS. The result is that any ISP who uses SORBS is blocking any emails from my client. I maintain that it is not up to the ISP to make an arbitrary decision off their own bat to block an address, it is up to the ISP's clients to ask their ISP for address blocking, or not. If we accept that ISPs can arbitrarily block addresses then IMO they are contravening their legal responsibilities as carriers. Craig Sanders wrote: > On Mon, May 02, 2005 at 10:02:39AM +0200, Auer, Karl James wrote: > >>>prevent ISPs from avoiding responsibility for their spamming >>>customers by progressively blacklisting more and more of the ISP's >>>network the longer they refuse to take any action against their >>>spammers. >>> >>>like it or not, this is a remarkably effective tool. it is about the >>>only thing that will get spam-haven ISPs to finally get rid of their >>>scumbag spammer customers. >> >>.. you are, I think, wrong. You say everyone can do what *they* like, >>because it's *their* system and *their* policy etc etc, but on that >>basis spam is OK too. > > > no, because spam abuses other people's systems. a person has every right > to decide what mail they will accept on their own system, they do not > have any right to demand that someone else's system will accept their > mail. > > the arguments against using RBLs all boil down to "i should have the > right to demand that someone else accept my mail whether they want to > or not" - which is exactly what spammers insist on. once you accept the > right of someone to decide what their mail server will accept, then you > have to accept all the consequences of that, even if it means they may > choose to refuse YOUR mail or reject mail on silly or arbitrary criteria > - it's their mail server, their choice. end of story. > > > >>I had my C-class network blocked by ORBS (way back when) because >>it was within a Telstra supernet and ORBS was blocking the entire >>supernet because Telstra was a "bad guy". There was nowhere else I >>could go for addresses at the time, no way I was going to change >>Telstra - so what could I do? SFA, that's what. > > > if the listing was incorrect (e.g. because telstra didn't actually own > the /24), then point it out to ORBS and get it corrected. they corrected > their mistakes too. > > otherwise, complain to telstra, leave them, sue them, get together with > other parties affected by telstra's spam-supporting habits and complain > or leave or sue telstra for faulure to provide the quality service you > paid for. > > BTW, telstra was not a monopoly for internet service or IP address space > at the time ORBS existed. far from it. you had other options available, > even if you didn't like them or they were more expensive or not as good > or whatever. you chose to stay. > > > >>It is unfair and *wrong* to accept collateral damage of this sort with >>a shrug of the shoulders. > > > what you're forgetting is that it is the choice of the mail server > operator to use or not use any given RBL. if they want to use an RBL, > then they can - whether you like it or approve of it or not, because > it's none of your business. you do not have a right to expect that > anyone else will accept your mail. that is not your decision to make, > ever, under ANY circumstances. > > >>If I'm running my corner of the world properly, it is NOT right to >>make me responsible for the actions of others. To put it another way, >>if you are going to be a vigilante, make DAMN sure you lynch only the >>guilty. > > > if you are knowingly supporting a spam-haven ISP with your money then > you are guilty. the RBL listing is, in part, your notification that you > are financially supporting spammers. > > craig > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From pjchen at optusnet.com.au Tue May 3 16:30:05 2005 From: pjchen at optusnet.com.au (Peter Chen) Date: Tue May 3 16:30:39 2005 Subject: [LINK] Victorian Electronic Democracy Final Report Tabled Today Message-ID: <200505030630.j436U5rG016924@mail14.syd.optusnet.com.au> [For your information only, apologies for any cross-posting.. This is not an official message from the Committee, if you participated in the Inquiry formally you will receive official correspondence and a copy of the report in due course] The Victorian Electronic Democracy Final Report was tabled in the Victorian Parliament today (Tuesday, 3rd May 2005) at 2:50pm. The report can be found at: http://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/sarc/E-Democracy/Final_Report/ToC.htm http://members.optusnet.com.au/pjchen/downloads/Final%20Report%20v1_6.pdf It is also available in hard copy (paper or CDROM) upon request - (03) 9651 4008. The 320 page report makes 90 recommendations and covers a wide range of territory, from issues dealing with electronic voting casting and counting, to online consultation and participation processes, and the development of rich local content of relevant to the political system of Victoria. The report also discusses issues associated with the use of ICTs in/by the Victorian Parliament, such as webcasting of Parliament, online petitions, and the use of new media by the Parliament and MPs. For those unfamiliar with the background, the report represents the work of the Scrutiny of Acts and Regulations Committee (SARC) a standing Committee of the Victorian Parliament, with representation of both houses and both major Victorian Parties. The Inquiry, initially begun under the former Parliament, was completed in this Parliamentary term and incorporated evidence collected from two overseas missions: Europe (2002) and North America (2004). The Committee collected local evidence during public hearings (2005), from a number of briefings (2004-5), and from an email discussion list established for the Inquiry. The report represents the views of the SARC, and will be responded to in due course by the Government of Victoria. This response may be a wide scale adoption of the recommendations, or their complete rejection, or a selective response. Regards, Peter Chen _ _____________ _ Peter Chen +61 3 9440 6266 [home/office] 0431994205 [mobile] pjchen@optusnet.com.au MSN and Skype.com ("peterjohnchen") members.optusnet.com.au/pjchen There is something insane about a lack of doubt. Doubt, to me anyway, is what makes you human, and without doubt even the righteous lose their grip not only on reality but also on their humanity. - Tilda Swinton From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Tue May 3 17:50:08 2005 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Tue May 3 17:52:21 2005 Subject: [LINK] Granddaughters with email Message-ID: <7f9d54e9e21b1491e537ebc2103d5187@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Linkers Begin forwarded message: > Hi :-) This is Arielle. My school is doing a Krispy Kreme Fundraiser. > Krispy Kreme donuts are very yummy and the best you will ever eat! > You can check them out on the internet at www.krispykreme.com > > The yummy donuts are only $12 a dozen and $5 per dozen goes to our > school. My mum, Amelie, will deliver them on Wednesday the 18th of > May. > I just got this from one of my granddaughters who now has her own email address. She has been sending me ecards recently. I guess it's the sign of the times when nine year olds have email and send you spam! The school is Aranda Primary if anybody in Canberra wants some Krispy Kreme donuts! Tony phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From ivan.trundle at alia.org.au Tue May 3 18:53:45 2005 From: ivan.trundle at alia.org.au (Ivan Trundle) Date: Tue May 3 18:53:51 2005 Subject: [LINK] Granddaughters with email In-Reply-To: <7f9d54e9e21b1491e537ebc2103d5187@tony-barry.emu.id.au> References: <7f9d54e9e21b1491e537ebc2103d5187@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Message-ID: <5D9505D8-53BA-4B15-B852-BDEAF68A80F6@alia.org.au> Look out, Tony. You're about to be bombarded with 'when my daughter was two, she was writing python scripts' stories... (mine didn't start writing HTML until she was 4: I've still got the code pinned onto my study noticeboard to humble me). Let's face it: there are yet more young 'uns getting e-mail addresses and chat addresses, and even more parents who haven't a clue what their kids are doing or who they are communicating with. Spam generation (let's ignore the Krispy Creme nutritional and social behaviour modification aspects...) Mac OS 10.4 (Tiger) has some interesting parental controls, whitelisting everything from websites to e-mail contacts, and chat (and parents then have to approve *all* contacts and URLs). I wonder if Microsoft's Longhorn will develop this aspect of internet- based communications?. iT On 03/05/2005, at 5:50 PM, Antony Barry wrote: > Linkers > > Begin forwarded message: > > >> Hi :-) This is Arielle. My school is doing a Krispy Kreme >> Fundraiser. >> Krispy Kreme donuts are very yummy and the best you will ever eat! >> You can check them out on the internet at www.krispykreme.com >> >> The yummy donuts are only $12 a dozen and $5 per dozen goes to our >> school. My mum, Amelie, will deliver them on Wednesday the 18th of >> May. >> >> > > I just got this from one of my granddaughters who now has her own > email address. She has been sending me ecards recently. I guess > it's the sign of the times when nine year olds have email and send > you spam! The school is Aranda Primary if anybody in Canberra wants > some Krispy Kreme donuts! > > Tony > > phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au > mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > > > -- Ivan Trundle Manager, publishing and communications Australian Library and Information Association http://alia.org.au ivan.trundle@alia.org.au ph +61 2 6215 8232 fx +61 2 6282 2249 mobile +61 418 244 259 PO Box 6335 Kingston 2604 Australia From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Tue May 3 20:01:05 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Tue May 3 20:30:58 2005 Subject: [LINK] Italy strikes back Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20050503200048.01de4ec0@popa.melbpc.org.au> You gotta love the PDF bit. read on... >US military investigation into death of Italian agent exposed > http://67.19.9.2/?article=22945 > >Web security a joke--heavily redacted document uncovered by >an Italian > >By Paul Hales: Monday 02 May 2005, 10:44 > >THERE'S AN INTERESTING document on the Interweb. It's a declassified US >military report into the killing of Italian military intelligence agent, >Dr. Nicola Calipari, by US soldiers as he accompanied journalist Giuliana >Sgrena to Baghdad International Airport in March. > > Italian newspaper Repubblica has posted a copy of the pdf here . The > original was on a US military website but was removed after the newspaper > showed that all you have to do is copy and paste from the pdf to read all > the bits that seem to have been struck out by the censors' black pen. > >http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-usshot014241218may01,0,1700624.story?coll=ny-nationalnews-headlines > >US Army report of shooting, makes sense. US troops in tough >position, poor setup that night, Italian driver talking on a cell phone! JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From link at todd.inoz.com Wed May 4 02:11:31 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Wed May 4 02:19:37 2005 Subject: [LINK] Granddaughters with email In-Reply-To: <5D9505D8-53BA-4B15-B852-BDEAF68A80F6@alia.org.au> References: <7f9d54e9e21b1491e537ebc2103d5187@tony-barry.emu.id.au> <7f9d54e9e21b1491e537ebc2103d5187@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050504020730.038eb210@wheresmymailserver.com> At 18:53 3/05/2005 +1000, Ivan Trundle wrote: >Look out, Tony. You're about to be bombarded with 'when my daughter >was two, she was writing python scripts' stories... (mine didn't >start writing HTML until she was 4: I've still got the code pinned >onto my study noticeboard to humble me). Gawd, when my daughter was two ... hang on, I have a new daughter who is only 3 weeks old :) She's already soaking up the "How To" sitting on my lap. That means two daughters who in the future will bombard me with emails wanting me to buy Donuts! No. No, they won't get access to my computers! >Let's face it: there are yet more young 'uns getting e-mail addresses >and chat addresses, and even more parents who haven't a clue what >their kids are doing or who they are communicating with. It's quite frightening really. I still have quite a number of parents asking me to find out what their kids have been up to. I keep asking the same question: What were you doing? >Spam generation (let's ignore the Krispy Creme nutritional and social >behaviour modification aspects...) Hey! Krispy Kreams, the assorted variety, are a godsend after spending a day making technology do what you want it to do rather than what it was designed to do. >Mac OS 10.4 (Tiger) has some interesting parental controls, >whitelisting everything from websites to e-mail contacts, and chat >(and parents then have to approve *all* contacts and URLs). I'm yet to get a copy :) >I wonder if Microsoft's Longhorn will develop this aspect of internet- >based communications?. Ok please. M$ will happily provide you with a rental box and rental software that requires regular updates and is restricted to M$ sponsored sites only. .NET ;) From stephen at melbpc.org.au Wed May 4 05:42:50 2005 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley) Date: Wed May 4 05:43:11 2005 Subject: [LINK] Uni of Tas digital research library Message-ID: <4277D43A.2030907@melbpc.org.au> 'De-unifying a digital library' by Arthur Sale http://firstmonday.org/issues/issue10_5/sale/ Abstract: The University of Tasmania decided to explore using a unified digital library for all its research output: journal articles, conference papers, higher degree theses, and other types. This decision is in advance of the state of the Australian national indexing systems. The digital library also uses OAI-PMH protocols for harvesting, which one of the national repositories does not as yet. The paper describes the context, reasons for the University?s decision, consequences and outcomes, and the development of software to talk to the Australian Digital Theses Program. -- Cheers Stephen Loosley Melbourne, Australia From brendansweb at optusnet.com.au Wed May 4 08:37:51 2005 From: brendansweb at optusnet.com.au (Brendan Scott) Date: Wed May 4 08:38:04 2005 Subject: [LINK] French court rules against copy protection Message-ID: <4277FD3F.5050107@optusnet.com.au> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7645680/ The [French] appeals court ruled Friday that copy prevention software on the DVD violated privacy rights in the case of one consumer who had tried to transfer the film onto a video cassette for personal use. From kauer at biplane.com.au Wed May 4 09:09:47 2005 From: kauer at biplane.com.au (Karl Auer) Date: Wed May 4 09:09:54 2005 Subject: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... Message-ID: <20050504010947.0623e20d.kauer@biplane.com.au> > no, because spam abuses other people's systems. a person has every right > to decide what mail they will accept on their own system, they do not > have any right to demand that someone else's system will accept their > mail. How about comparing things like SPEWS to a credit reference agency. If they get you wrong, you can't get credit. No house, no car, maybe even no job. When a spam blocking agency gets it wrong, they stuff up *other people's* email. I think it's specious to say that server admins, by relying on SPEWS' information, "choose to stuff up" those people. The agency is at fault and has a duty to react correctly and quickly to errors. They also have a duty to try pretty hard to not make mistakes in the first place. The more customers they have, the better they need to be. > if the listing was incorrect (e.g. because telstra didn't actually own > the /24), then point it out to ORBS and get it corrected. they corrected > their mistakes too. It depends what you mean by "owned". The only person responsible for machines in that network was me. > otherwise, complain to telstra, leave them, sue them, get together with > other parties affected by telstra's spam-supporting habits and complain > or leave or sue telstra for faulure to provide the quality service you > paid for. Craig, have you actually ever tried something like that? With all due respect, you are talking through your hat. While all this great civic agitation is going on, while I'm pitting my meagre resources against the Telstra legal machine, my emails aren't getting through... and my chances of success using any of the above methods (including "leave", see below) are pretty poor. > BTW, telstra was not a monopoly for internet service or IP address space > at the time ORBS existed. far from it. you had other options available, > even if you didn't like them or they were more expensive or not as good > or whatever. you chose to stay. Sure - it took me a year or more to extract a C-class network from the then responsible authorities. "Choice" isn't as clear cut as you seem to think. If someone kicks me in the nuts, do I "choose" to groan and fall down? If I get sued by some huge multinational and "choose" not to bankrupt myself defending my case, did I "choose" to settle? In this case, I chose to send increasingly strident emails to the unthinking, uncaring and basically lost-the-plot types at ORBS, receiving for my troubles various ignorant and/or rude emails in return, until suddenly after a few months the listing was gone. I was very glad to see that system go belly-up. If SPEWS continues press-ganging the innocent into fighting for the cause, then the same will happen to SPEWS, and a good thing too. > if you are knowingly supporting a spam-haven ISP with your money then > you are guilty. the RBL listing is, in part, your notification that you > are financially supporting spammers. Sometimes, Craig, you are really full of it. Not often, but sometimes. And this is such a time :-) Regards, K. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au) +41-43-2660706 (h) http://www.biplane.com.au/~kauer/ +41- 1-6327531 (w) From lannet at lannet.com.au Wed May 4 09:59:15 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Wed May 4 09:59:27 2005 Subject: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... In-Reply-To: <20050504010947.0623e20d.kauer@biplane.com.au> References: <20050504010947.0623e20d.kauer@biplane.com.au> Message-ID: <42781053.9070001@lannet.com.au> In the case of SORBS, which is the RBL that I am having problems with, they require that the rDNS PTR record matched the DNS A or MX record. If they don't match then your in the list. There are quite a few kosher static IPs whose assignees don't have access to their rDNS. Karl Auer wrote: >>no, because spam abuses other people's systems. a person has every right >>to decide what mail they will accept on their own system, they do not >>have any right to demand that someone else's system will accept their >>mail. > > > How about comparing things like SPEWS to a credit reference agency. If they get you wrong, you can't get credit. No house, no car, maybe even no job. When a spam blocking agency gets it wrong, they stuff up *other people's* email. I think it's specious to say that server admins, by relying on SPEWS' information, "choose to stuff up" those people. The agency is at fault and has a duty to react correctly and quickly to errors. They also have a duty to try pretty hard to not make mistakes in the first place. The more customers they have, the better they need to be. > > >>if the listing was incorrect (e.g. because telstra didn't actually own >>the /24), then point it out to ORBS and get it corrected. they corrected >>their mistakes too. > > > It depends what you mean by "owned". The only person responsible for machines in that network was me. > > >>otherwise, complain to telstra, leave them, sue them, get together with >>other parties affected by telstra's spam-supporting habits and complain >>or leave or sue telstra for faulure to provide the quality service you >>paid for. > > > Craig, have you actually ever tried something like that? With all due respect, you are talking through your hat. While all this great civic agitation is going on, while I'm pitting my meagre resources against the Telstra legal machine, my emails aren't getting through... and my chances of success using any of the above methods (including "leave", see below) are pretty poor. > > >>BTW, telstra was not a monopoly for internet service or IP address space >>at the time ORBS existed. far from it. you had other options available, >>even if you didn't like them or they were more expensive or not as good >>or whatever. you chose to stay. > > > Sure - it took me a year or more to extract a C-class network from the then responsible authorities. > > "Choice" isn't as clear cut as you seem to think. If someone kicks me in the nuts, do I "choose" to groan and fall down? > > If I get sued by some huge multinational and "choose" not to bankrupt myself defending my case, did I "choose" to settle? > > In this case, I chose to send increasingly strident emails to the unthinking, uncaring and basically lost-the-plot types at ORBS, receiving for my troubles various ignorant and/or rude emails in return, until suddenly after a few months the listing was gone. I was very glad to see that system go belly-up. If SPEWS continues press-ganging the innocent into fighting for the cause, then the same will happen to SPEWS, and a good thing too. > > >>if you are knowingly supporting a spam-haven ISP with your money then >>you are guilty. the RBL listing is, in part, your notification that you >>are financially supporting spammers. > > > Sometimes, Craig, you are really full of it. Not often, but sometimes. And this is such a time :-) > > Regards, K. > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au) +41-43-2660706 (h) > http://www.biplane.com.au/~kauer/ +41- 1-6327531 (w) > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From cas at taz.net.au Wed May 4 10:26:52 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Wed May 4 10:25:24 2005 Subject: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... In-Reply-To: <20050504010947.0623e20d.kauer@biplane.com.au> References: <20050504010947.0623e20d.kauer@biplane.com.au> Message-ID: <20050504002652.GK18150@taz.net.au> On Wed, May 04, 2005 at 01:09:47AM +0200, Karl Auer wrote: > > no, because spam abuses other people's systems. a person has every right > > to decide what mail they will accept on their own system, they do not > > have any right to demand that someone else's system will accept their > > mail. > > How about comparing things like SPEWS to a credit reference agency. why? that's a pretty dumb comparison to make. an RBL is nothing more than a published opinion - it says "these are the IP addresses i do not want to accept mail from". that's it. > When a spam blocking agency gets it wrong, they stuff > up *other people's* email. I think it's specious to say that server > admins, by relying on SPEWS' information, "choose to stuff up" those > people. server admins, by choosing to use SPEWS data, are willing to accept the consequences of their actions. they understand that occasionally there will be errors, but they feel that an occasional mistake is a price worth paying for the benefit received. (and yes, some system admins are too stupid or ignorant to check out SPEWS' policies before using them, and are unaware of the potential for mistakes. that's their own stupid fault, not the fault of SPEWS.) > The agency is at fault and has a duty to react correctly and > quickly to errors. They also have a duty to try pretty hard to not > make mistakes in the first place. in my experience & observation SPEWS are very fast at correcting errors when they are pointed out. they may take their time assessing demanding, whiny, rude, and obnoxious complaints - but then, who wouldn't? here's a tip: obnoxiousness does not inspire prompt and courteous action. it generally inspires the opposite. please, when whinging about SPEWS, stick to things that SPEWS have done. don't bring in stuff that ORBS did years ago. SPEWS are not ORBS. > The more customers they have, the better they need to be. very few RBLs have customers. there are only a handful of commercial RBLs in the world. most of them are just a published list of IP addresses that the operators do not want to receive mail from. the fact that other people choose to make use of that list does NOT make those other people "customers". > > if the listing was incorrect (e.g. because telstra didn't actually > > own the /24), then point it out to ORBS and get it corrected. they > > corrected their mistakes too. > > It depends what you mean by "owned". The only person responsible for > machines in that network was me. was their any way for someone *outside* your network or outside telstra to tell that your /24 was not controlled by telstra? or did you expect ORBS to magically know that your /24 was somehow special? > > otherwise, complain to telstra, leave them, sue them, get together > > with other parties affected by telstra's spam-supporting habits and > > complain or leave or sue telstra for faulure to provide the quality > > service you paid for. > > Craig, have you actually ever tried something like that? With all due > respect, you are talking through your hat. While all this great civic > agitation is going on, while I'm pitting my meagre resources against > the Telstra legal machine, my emails aren't getting through... and my > chances of success using any of the above methods (including "leave", > see below) are pretty poor. frankly, tough. that's your problem. it's not my problem, it's not SPEWS' problem, and it's not the problem of anyone who chooses to use SPEWS lists. if they care about receiving mail from you then they will put in an override to the RBL (i do that quite frequently). if they don't care, then they won't. maybe you'll think twice about buying service from a spam-haven ISP next time. BTW, whitelisting/overriding is an important point - it proves that the final decision about blocking mail from your IP address(es) is up to the receiving system. even if they choose to use SPEWS (or any other RBL) then can still choose to override any RBL entry. it's easy to do. > > if you are knowingly supporting a spam-haven ISP with your money > > then you are guilty. the RBL listing is, in part, your notification > > that you are financially supporting spammers. > > Sometimes, Craig, you are really full of it. Not often, but sometimes. > And this is such a time :-) no, here i am absolutely 100% correct. if you know your ISP is a spam-haven and you continue to pay them for service then you DESERVE to be black-listed. no ifs, no buts, you deserve it because you are knowingly contributing to a spam-supporting ISP. the only thing that will stop spam is to make it unprofitable - for both spammers and spam-haven ISPs. this is exactly the same as if you keep buying products from a company you KNOW is pouring toxic carcinogenic waste into the local water supply - your knowledge means that your continued financial support makes you guilty. in cases like this you have a moral duty to boycott scum like this. your money helps them to keep on doing what they are doing. if you and enough other people stop giving them money then they will have to stop - either before they go bankrupt, or after (it doesn't matter which, as long as they stop). craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From kauer at biplane.com.au Wed May 4 10:42:45 2005 From: kauer at biplane.com.au (Karl Auer) Date: Wed May 4 10:42:55 2005 Subject: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... In-Reply-To: <20050504002652.GK18150@taz.net.au> References: <20050504010947.0623e20d.kauer@biplane.com.au> <20050504002652.GK18150@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <20050504024245.5447cdce.kauer@biplane.com.au> > > How about comparing things like SPEWS to a credit reference agency. > > why? that's a pretty dumb comparison to make. > > an RBL is nothing more than a published opinion - it says "these are the IP > addresses i do not want to accept mail from". that's it. A credit agency is just publishing opinions about whether people are good repayers. Why is it a dumb comparison? > in my experience & observation SPEWS are very fast at correcting errors > when they are pointed out. Perhaps. I don't take issue with SPEWS' right to exist, or people's right to use it. The issue of errors is perhaps a red herring for which I apologise. > > Craig, have you actually ever tried something like that? > > frankly, tough. that's your problem. Hm, thought you might not have. > maybe you'll think twice about buying service from a spam-haven ISP next time. I didn't buy anything. I was allocated PI address space, i.e., one C class network, by the then responsible authority. To the best of my then knowledge I had no alternative. To be honest, I still don't think I had any alternatives, you may be better informed on that. I certainly had no realistic alternatives. OK, Craig, have it your way. But don't expect sympathy when *you* are enjoying the rough end of somebody else's pineapple up your powerless behind. K. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au) +41-43-2660706 (h) http://www.biplane.com.au/~kauer/ +41- 1-6327531 (w) From cas at taz.net.au Wed May 4 11:40:12 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Wed May 4 11:38:40 2005 Subject: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... In-Reply-To: <42781053.9070001@lannet.com.au> References: <20050504010947.0623e20d.kauer@biplane.com.au> <42781053.9070001@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <20050504014012.GL18150@taz.net.au> [ BTW, you should make it clear that you are talking about the SORBS DUL, as opposed to any of the other SORBS lists. they all have different policies/criteria for listing. the DUL is for listing dynamic/dialup IP addresses.] On Wed, May 04, 2005 at 09:59:15AM +1000, Howard Lowndes wrote: > In the case of SORBS, which is the RBL that I am having problems with, > they require that the rDNS PTR record matched the DNS A or MX record. > If they don't match then your in the list. no, this is not the case. try reading what they publish on their website[1]: Anyone else may request delisting of addreses or netblocks providing reverse DNS (rDNS) is set to indicate static assignment. This is usually done by setting the PTR records to hosts that match the A and MX records for the domain residing there. Generic DNS records are generally considered dynamic, however generic static records are accepted when created with rDNS that contains the word "static" in the address. (eg: 0.1.static.example.com) rDNS set to the A or MX record is only an *example*, not a requirement. the actual requirement is that the rDNS somehow indicates a static IP, rather than dynamic....and even then, that's only when the de-listing request comes from someone other than the registered whois contact for the netblock concerned: The Regional Internet Registry (RIR) Point of Contact (POC) can request a listing or delisting of any address in his or her space. The only time this will be refused is when the Netblock information in the RIR or the rDNS indicates clearly the addresses are Dynamic in nature. (eg: 0.1.pool.example.com) BTW, what you claim they require just wouldn't work. there are many mail servers with hundreds or even thousands of domains with MX or A records pointing at them. there is no way that they will have rDNS PTR records for all of them. such a host will typically have one official hostname, with rDNS set to match. [1] http://www.au.sorbs.net/faq/dul.shtml craig ps: as usual, yet another instance of complaints about RBL services being made by people who don't even bother to get the facts. it's easier to whinge in ignorance than it is to try to understand what you are talking about. i'd have less of a problem with anti-RBL whinges if, just once!, someone bothered to do even the tiniest bit of research first. -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From lannet at lannet.com.au Wed May 4 11:45:58 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Wed May 4 11:46:11 2005 Subject: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... In-Reply-To: <20050504002652.GK18150@taz.net.au> References: <20050504010947.0623e20d.kauer@biplane.com.au> <20050504002652.GK18150@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <42782956.4070201@lannet.com.au> Craig Sanders wrote: > On Wed, May 04, 2005 at 01:09:47AM +0200, Karl Auer wrote: > >>>no, because spam abuses other people's systems. a person has every right >>>to decide what mail they will accept on their own system, they do not >>>have any right to demand that someone else's system will accept their >>>mail. >> >>How about comparing things like SPEWS to a credit reference agency. > > > why? that's a pretty dumb comparison to make. > > an RBL is nothing more than a published opinion - it says "these are the IP > addresses i do not want to accept mail from". that's it. That's exactly what a credit reference agency is, so it's a very sound analogy. You don't, as a business, have to use a credit reference agency, but if you do then you might be using bum data. > > >>When a spam blocking agency gets it wrong, they stuff >>up *other people's* email. I think it's specious to say that server >>admins, by relying on SPEWS' information, "choose to stuff up" those >>people. > > > server admins, by choosing to use SPEWS data, are willing to accept the > consequences of their actions. they understand that occasionally there > will be errors, but they feel that an occasional mistake is a price worth > paying for the benefit received. It's not an "occasional" mistake when you have the policy that SORBS does of how they determine dynamic IPs. > > (and yes, some system admins are too stupid or ignorant to check out > SPEWS' policies before using them, and are unaware of the potential for > mistakes. that's their own stupid fault, not the fault of SPEWS.) It's not just dumb sysadms, it's also dumb stupid big corps such as Optarse. > > > >>The agency is at fault and has a duty to react correctly and >>quickly to errors. They also have a duty to try pretty hard to not >>make mistakes in the first place. > > > in my experience & observation SPEWS are very fast at correcting errors > when they are pointed out. they may take their time assessing demanding, > whiny, rude, and obnoxious complaints - but then, who wouldn't? here's > a tip: obnoxiousness does not inspire prompt and courteous action. it > generally inspires the opposite. > > please, when whinging about SPEWS, stick to things that SPEWS have done. > don't bring in stuff that ORBS did years ago. SPEWS are not ORBS. > > >>The more customers they have, the better they need to be. > > > very few RBLs have customers. there are only a handful of commercial > RBLs in the world. most of them are just a published list of IP addresses > that the operators do not want to receive mail from. the fact that other > people choose to make use of that list does NOT make those other people > "customers". No, they are lists of addresses that the list owners think should be included - based on some vague, often unpublished, policy. > > > >>>if the listing was incorrect (e.g. because telstra didn't actually >>>own the /24), then point it out to ORBS and get it corrected. they >>>corrected their mistakes too. >> >>It depends what you mean by "owned". The only person responsible for >>machines in that network was me. > > > was their any way for someone *outside* your network or outside telstra to > tell that your /24 was not controlled by telstra? or did you expect ORBS > to magically know that your /24 was somehow special? > > > >>>otherwise, complain to telstra, leave them, sue them, get together >>>with other parties affected by telstra's spam-supporting habits and >>>complain or leave or sue telstra for faulure to provide the quality >>>service you paid for. >> >>Craig, have you actually ever tried something like that? With all due >>respect, you are talking through your hat. While all this great civic >>agitation is going on, while I'm pitting my meagre resources against >>the Telstra legal machine, my emails aren't getting through... and my >>chances of success using any of the above methods (including "leave", >>see below) are pretty poor. > > > frankly, tough. that's your problem. it's not my problem, it's not SPEWS' > problem, and it's not the problem of anyone who chooses to use SPEWS lists. > if they care about receiving mail from you then they will put in an override > to the RBL (i do that quite frequently). if they don't care, then they won't. Again you are assuming the "Big Corp" cares. > > maybe you'll think twice about buying service from a spam-haven ISP next time. > > > BTW, whitelisting/overriding is an important point - it proves that the final > decision about blocking mail from your IP address(es) is up to the receiving > system. even if they choose to use SPEWS (or any other RBL) then can still > choose to override any RBL entry. it's easy to do. Absolutely, the arguement is the same as the one about parental supervision. It's the end users responsibility to be responsible for their own destiny. If they want an upstream to help them, then thats fine, but it must be granular and not a "everyone will fit this size" policy. > > > > > >>>if you are knowingly supporting a spam-haven ISP with your money >>>then you are guilty. the RBL listing is, in part, your notification >>>that you are financially supporting spammers. >> >>Sometimes, Craig, you are really full of it. Not often, but sometimes. >>And this is such a time :-) > > > no, here i am absolutely 100% correct. if you know your ISP is a spam-haven > and you continue to pay them for service then you DESERVE to be black-listed. > no ifs, no buts, you deserve it because you are knowingly contributing to a > spam-supporting ISP. the only thing that will stop spam is to make it > unprofitable - for both spammers and spam-haven ISPs. > > this is exactly the same as if you keep buying products from a company you > KNOW is pouring toxic carcinogenic waste into the local water supply - your > knowledge means that your continued financial support makes you guilty. in > cases like this you have a moral duty to boycott scum like this. > > your money helps them to keep on doing what they are doing. if you and enough > other people stop giving them money then they will have to stop - either > before they go bankrupt, or after (it doesn't matter which, as long as they > stop). > > > craig > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From lannet at lannet.com.au Wed May 4 11:49:25 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Wed May 4 11:50:06 2005 Subject: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... In-Reply-To: <20050504014012.GL18150@taz.net.au> References: <20050504010947.0623e20d.kauer@biplane.com.au> <42781053.9070001@lannet.com.au> <20050504014012.GL18150@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <42782A25.5070308@lannet.com.au> forget it - you're not worth discussing with. Craig Sanders wrote: > [ BTW, you should make it clear that you are talking about the SORBS > DUL, as opposed to any of the other SORBS lists. they all have different > policies/criteria for listing. the DUL is for listing dynamic/dialup IP > addresses.] > > On Wed, May 04, 2005 at 09:59:15AM +1000, Howard Lowndes wrote: > >>In the case of SORBS, which is the RBL that I am having problems with, >>they require that the rDNS PTR record matched the DNS A or MX record. >>If they don't match then your in the list. > > > no, this is not the case. try reading what they publish on their website[1]: > > Anyone else may request delisting of addreses or netblocks > providing reverse DNS (rDNS) is set to indicate static assignment. > This is usually done by setting the PTR records to hosts that match > the A and MX records for the domain residing there. Generic DNS > records are generally considered dynamic, however generic static > records are accepted when created with rDNS that contains the word > "static" in the address. (eg: 0.1.static.example.com) > > rDNS set to the A or MX record is only an *example*, not a requirement. > > the actual requirement is that the rDNS somehow indicates a static IP, > rather than dynamic....and even then, that's only when the de-listing > request comes from someone other than the registered whois contact for > the netblock concerned: > > The Regional Internet Registry (RIR) Point of Contact (POC) can > request a listing or delisting of any address in his or her > space. The only time this will be refused is when the Netblock > information in the RIR or the rDNS indicates clearly the addresses > are Dynamic in nature. (eg: 0.1.pool.example.com) > > > > > > BTW, what you claim they require just wouldn't work. there are many mail > servers with hundreds or even thousands of domains with MX or A records > pointing at them. there is no way that they will have rDNS PTR records for > all of them. such a host will typically have one official hostname, with rDNS > set to match. > > > [1] http://www.au.sorbs.net/faq/dul.shtml > > craig > > ps: as usual, yet another instance of complaints about RBL services > being made by people who don't even bother to get the facts. it's easier > to whinge in ignorance than it is to try to understand what you are > talking about. i'd have less of a problem with anti-RBL whinges if, just > once!, someone bothered to do even the tiniest bit of research first. > > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From gmalcolm at cyllene.uwa.edu.au Wed May 4 12:08:31 2005 From: gmalcolm at cyllene.uwa.edu.au (Grant Malcolm) Date: Wed May 4 12:08:39 2005 Subject: [LINK] Matrix license follow up In-Reply-To: <7f9d54e9e21b1491e537ebc2103d5187@tony-barry.emu.id.au> References: <7f9d54e9e21b1491e537ebc2103d5187@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Message-ID: Government OSS not really open: lawyer http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/0,2000061733,39190311,00.htm "The federal government's recently-launched open-source content management system may not be so "open" after all, a leading IT lawyer and several software developers have claimed." Probably take five minutes for another lawyer to offer a contrary opinion but an interesting follow up on the earlier discussion regardless. Cheers Grant PS. Yes, Jeremy and I are related; cousins. -------------------------------------------------------------- Website Coordinator, The University of Western Australia 35 Stirling Highway, Crawley WA, 6009 E-mail: grant.malcolm@uwa.edu.au Phone: +61 8 6488 1797 From avi.miller at squiz.net Wed May 4 12:24:27 2005 From: avi.miller at squiz.net (Avi Miller) Date: Wed May 4 12:24:37 2005 Subject: [LINK] Matrix license follow up In-Reply-To: References: <7f9d54e9e21b1491e537ebc2103d5187@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Message-ID: <4278325B.7020108@squiz.net> Grant Malcolm wrote: > Probably take five minutes for another lawyer to offer a contrary opinion > but an interesting follow up on the earlier discussion regardless. Its an interesting headline, but as our MD says in the same article: > However, Squiz managing director John-Paul Syriatowicz said it was OSI > that was dragging the chain on giving the company proper licence > accreditation. > "Squiz is committed to the open-source path, however, it seems the > goal posts are moving," he said. "As you are no doubt aware, OSI is > currently taking steps to address a series of open-source licensing > concerns including licence proliferation, understandability and code > re-combination and re-use. > "Squiz will re-adjust its business and licensing strategy to > incorporate OSI?s changes but at this stage it is too early to say > exactly how. We still find the dual licensing model employed by MySQL > very attractive so at this point (without seeing the outcome of the > OSI policy changes) it seems likely we will move in that direction," > Syriatowicz said. Just FYI. -- Implementation Specialist ..>> Canberra ...> Sydney ...> London .........../> Walter Turnbull Bldg T: +61 (0) 2 6233 0607 44 Sydney Ave, F: +61 (0) 2 6233 0696 Forrest, W: http://www.squiz.net/ ACT 2603 .....>> Open Source - Own it - Squiz.net ...../> From cas at taz.net.au Wed May 4 12:47:52 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Wed May 4 12:46:18 2005 Subject: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... In-Reply-To: <20050504024245.5447cdce.kauer@biplane.com.au> References: <20050504010947.0623e20d.kauer@biplane.com.au> <20050504002652.GK18150@taz.net.au> <20050504024245.5447cdce.kauer@biplane.com.au> Message-ID: <20050504024752.GM18150@taz.net.au> On Wed, May 04, 2005 at 02:42:45AM +0200, Karl Auer wrote: > > > How about comparing things like SPEWS to a credit reference agency. > > > > why? that's a pretty dumb comparison to make. > > > > an RBL is nothing more than a published opinion - it says "these are > > the IP addresses i do not want to accept mail from". that's it. > > A credit agency is just publishing opinions about whether people are > good repayers. Why is it a dumb comparison? the reasons are way too many to bother listing here. if you can't see the obvious differences then nothing i can say will convince you. > > in my experience & observation SPEWS are very fast at correcting > > errors when they are pointed out. > > Perhaps. I don't take issue with SPEWS' right to exist, or people's > right to use it. The issue of errors is perhaps a red herring for > which I apologise. then what are you complaining about? you don't take issue with their right to exist or other people's right to use their list. you acknowledge that whinging about errors is just a red herring. so what, exactly, is your problem? is it just that SPEWS are a visible and thus easy target for your anger? > > maybe you'll think twice about buying service from a spam-haven ISP > > next time. > > I didn't buy anything. I was allocated PI address space, i.e., one > C class network, by the then responsible authority. To the best of > my then knowledge I had no alternative. To be honest, I still don't > think I had any alternatives, you may be better informed on that. I > certainly had no realistic alternatives. that sounds like you have a good case to argue that the listing was erroneous, if the IP address you were allocated had nothing to do with telstra. perhaps if you had tried that, *WITHOUT* going ballistic at the first opportunity, you might have had a more prompt & reasonable response from ORBS (or perhaps not - unlike SPEWS and SORBS and most of the current RBLs, ORBS *were* nutcases and were known to list IPs purely out of spite). > OK, Craig, have it your way. But don't expect sympathy when *you* are > enjoying the rough end of somebody else's pineapple up your powerless > behind. if my address space ever gets in an RBL then i'll know what to do - i won't flail around whinging at the wrong people. and guess what? some of the mail servers i have been responsible for HAVE been RBL-listed in the past (in some cases, mistakenly. in other cases, quite legitimately - e.g. downstream customer with open relay configured to relay through our mail server. fix was to block smtp access to that customer until they fixed their mail server config). and, wonder of wonders, i got them de-listed without any difficulty. it's not hard. anyone who finds it difficult does not, IMO, have enough of a clue to be running a mail server on the internet. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From cas at taz.net.au Wed May 4 13:00:19 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Wed May 4 12:58:48 2005 Subject: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... In-Reply-To: <42782956.4070201@lannet.com.au> References: <20050504010947.0623e20d.kauer@biplane.com.au> <20050504002652.GK18150@taz.net.au> <42782956.4070201@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <20050504030019.GN18150@taz.net.au> On Wed, May 04, 2005 at 11:45:58AM +1000, Howard Lowndes wrote: > >server admins, by choosing to use SPEWS data, are willing to accept the > >consequences of their actions. they understand that occasionally there > >will be errors, but they feel that an occasional mistake is a price worth > >paying for the benefit received. > > It's not an "occasional" mistake when you have the policy that SORBS > does of how they determine dynamic IPs. you've already demonstrated that you don't even know what SORBS' policy is, so i don't think you're qualified to comment here. > >(and yes, some system admins are too stupid or ignorant to check out > >SPEWS' policies before using them, and are unaware of the potential > >for mistakes. that's their own stupid fault, not the fault of SPEWS.) > > It's not just dumb sysadms, it's also dumb stupid big corps such as > Optarse. that's not necessarily a dumb decision for them to make. it is almost certainly cheaper for them to have to put up with the occasional whinge about mistaken RBL entries than it is for them to accept & process the deluge of spam. their servers, their choices, their priorities. you don't have any say in it. my bet is that optus took the decision knowing full well what the cost would be - i can't imagine any optus (or other big corporate) sysadmin daring to make a decision like that, it's a decision that management would ultimately have to make. > >very few RBLs have customers. there are only a handful of commercial > >RBLs in the world. most of them are just a published list of IP > >addresses that the operators do not want to receive mail from. the > >fact that other people choose to make use of that list does NOT make > >those other people "customers". > > No, they are lists of addresses that the list owners think should be > included - based on some vague, often unpublished, policy. none of the major RBL services these days operates without a published policy and listing/delisting criteria. the disaster that was ORBS taught people that that was entirely undesirable. > >frankly, tough. that's your problem. it's not my problem, it's not > >SPEWS' problem, and it's not the problem of anyone who chooses to use > >SPEWS lists. if they care about receiving mail from you then they > >will put in an override to the RBL (i do that quite frequently). if > >they don't care, then they won't. > > Again you are assuming the "Big Corp" cares. no, i'm not assuming anything. if they don't care, then they wont whitelist your address(es). that's their choice, not yours. deal with it. you don't have any right to demand that someone else must accept your mail....no matter what you say, no matter how much you whinge about it, you NEVER will have that right. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From cas at taz.net.au Wed May 4 13:02:12 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Wed May 4 13:00:35 2005 Subject: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... In-Reply-To: <42782A25.5070308@lannet.com.au> References: <20050504010947.0623e20d.kauer@biplane.com.au> <42781053.9070001@lannet.com.au> <20050504014012.GL18150@taz.net.au> <42782A25.5070308@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <20050504030212.GO18150@taz.net.au> On Wed, May 04, 2005 at 11:49:25AM +1000, Howard Lowndes wrote: > forget it - you're not worth discussing with. excuse me for injecting some actual facts into the discussion. i apologise. i should have realised that this thread was for unsubstantiated opinion, ignorant rants, and misguided anger. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au Wed May 4 13:21:33 2005 From: sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au (Stephen Jenkin) Date: Wed May 4 13:21:37 2005 Subject: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... In-Reply-To: <20050504030212.GO18150@taz.net.au> Message-ID: I'm more than a little disappointed at the discussions allowed to occurr on this list... Many threads descend to this level of abuse and claim/counter-claim. These exchanges devalue the list almost completely. I for one, am very unimpressed with Craig's posts. Not for the content - he has his point of view, and contribued some real facts, but for his abusive language and obnoxious behaviour. Is there any notion of 'netiquette' on this list, or is it just a free-for-all?? sj On Wed, 4 May 2005, Craig Sanders wrote: > On Wed, May 04, 2005 at 11:49:25AM +1000, Howard Lowndes wrote: > > forget it - you're not worth discussing with. > > excuse me for injecting some actual facts into the discussion. > > i apologise. i should have realised that this thread was for > unsubstantiated opinion, ignorant rants, and misguided anger. > > craig > > -- > craig sanders (part time cyborg) > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > Steve Jenkin, Unix Sys Admin 0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915) PO Box 48, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au http://www.tip.net.au/~sjenkin From chris at sw.oz.au Wed May 4 14:01:38 2005 From: chris at sw.oz.au (Chris Maltby) Date: Wed May 4 14:04:57 2005 Subject: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... In-Reply-To: <20050504024752.GM18150@taz.net.au> References: <20050504010947.0623e20d.kauer@biplane.com.au> <20050504002652.GK18150@taz.net.au> <20050504024245.5447cdce.kauer@biplane.com.au> <20050504024752.GM18150@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <20050504040138.GZ22968@aurema.com> > On Wed, May 04, 2005 at 02:42:45AM +0200, Karl Auer wrote: >> I didn't buy anything. I was allocated PI address space, i.e., one >> C class network, by the then responsible authority. To the best of >> my then knowledge I had no alternative. To be honest, I still don't >> think I had any alternatives, you may be better informed on that. I >> certainly had no realistic alternatives. On Wed, May 04, 2005 at 12:47:52PM +1000, Craig Sanders wrote: > that sounds like you have a good case to argue that the listing was > erroneous, if the IP address you were allocated had nothing to do with > telstra. > > perhaps if you had tried that, *WITHOUT* going ballistic at the first > opportunity, you might have had a more prompt & reasonable response from > ORBS (or perhaps not - unlike SPEWS and SORBS and most of the current > RBLs, ORBS *were* nutcases and were known to list IPs purely out of > spite). Craig, I think your attitude is somewhat precious on behalf of the RBL maintainers and their supporters. The person who can maintain politeness after working out that someone's (often stupid) error has resulted in a major waste of one's time deserves to be made a saint. I was certainly pissed off when it happened to me, and so was Karl. That's 100% of the sample so far... People who maintain RBLs obviously need to have thick skins. And they (and their supporters) have an even greater obligation to be polite when confronted by angry people who also happen to be right! If they're also polite to the occasional spammer, what have they got to lose? Chris From drose at nla.gov.au Wed May 4 15:17:45 2005 From: drose at nla.gov.au (Daniel Rose) Date: Wed May 4 15:17:51 2005 Subject: FW: [LINK] European libraries join forces against Google Message-ID: <3F8819281E85774CA6CE6F4FB842874F08E31A@gimli.shire.nla.gov.au> Robert Hart Said: > >Hey - that still leaves one or two gems lying around - I am >sure that if >Latin were still being taught someone would want to grab >royalties on De >Bello Gallica. > My mother teaches Latin full-time at a high school, so it is... >And before that there were one or two Greeks who wrote some interesting >and well quoted pieces. Yeah I think there was a movie based on ancient Greek stories recently... Something I've never quite understood is that someing in PD like tarzan or Frankenstein or Troy or Snow White and so forth has a movie made of it, Disney make, like, millions of dollars! But Vic says public domain stuff is all of no worth or below transaction costs, so how can Disney do this? >But that misses out the really interesting possibility that some >corporation could actually own the copyright to the Bible, Torah and >Koran. Blasphemy could carry a royalty fee! >I am sure that this would make life interesting for committed >members of >those religions. See the scientologists for an example. From kauer at biplane.com.au Wed May 4 16:30:15 2005 From: kauer at biplane.com.au (Karl Auer) Date: Wed May 4 16:30:25 2005 Subject: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... In-Reply-To: <20050504024752.GM18150@taz.net.au> References: <20050504010947.0623e20d.kauer@biplane.com.au> <20050504002652.GK18150@taz.net.au> <20050504024245.5447cdce.kauer@biplane.com.au> <20050504024752.GM18150@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <20050504083015.4d923464.kauer@biplane.com.au> > > A credit agency is just publishing opinions about whether people are > > good repayers. Why is it a dumb comparison? > > the reasons are way too many to bother listing here. if you can't see > the obvious differences then nothing i can say will convince you. I could just as well say the same thing about similarities. Name a few of the obvious differences. Saying they are there isn't very convincing. BTW, there is a difference between an analogy or a parallel and a one-to-one correspondence. > then what are you complaining about? Such agencies blocking more than they have concrete evidence for, and blocking ranges that are not in fact "guilty" except by association. > that sounds like you have a good case to argue that the listing was > erroneous, if the IP address you were allocated had nothing to do with > telstra. I did argue exactly that case. It still took months for anything to be fixed. And my claim was never actually acknowledged. > perhaps if you had tried that, *WITHOUT* going ballistic at the first As I've said several times, I asked very politely at first. In fact all my messages were polite, though they were certainly very pointed after the first few. At no stage did I "go ballistic", and in any case that's not the point. Even if someone *does* "go ballistic" an agency like spews has the same duty of care. > if my address space ever gets in an RBL then i'll know what to do - i won't > flail around whinging at the wrong people. No - just like me you you will start politely, pass through desperation into despondence, it will get you absolutely nowhere, and then you will be known as the Pineapple King. Come chat to us then. > anyone who finds it difficult does not, IMO, have enough of a clue > to be running a mail server on the internet. And there - right there! - is the reason why you are full of it :-) K. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au) +41-43-2660706 (h) http://www.biplane.com.au/~kauer/ +41- 1-6327531 (w) From gctaylor at netspace.net.au Wed May 4 17:34:31 2005 From: gctaylor at netspace.net.au (Greg Taylor) Date: Wed May 4 17:34:46 2005 Subject: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200554173431.476487@greghome> On Wed, 4 May 2005 13:21:33 +1000 (EST), Stephen Jenkin wrote: >?I'm more than a little disappointed at the discussions allowed to >?occurr on this list... ?Many threads descend to this level of abuse >?and claim/counter-claim. ?These exchanges devalue the list almost >?completely. > >?I for one, am very unimpressed with Craig's posts. >?Not for the content - he has his point of view, and contribued some >?real facts, but for his abusive language and obnoxious behaviour. > >?Is there any notion of 'netiquette' on this list, or is it just a >?free-for-all?? I agree with you. I thought this kind of flame war died out last century but there are obviously a few dinosaurs still hanging around. I too would like to see Link adhere to reasoned and polite debate. There are ways to disagree without being abusive. And enough of the Loony Left vs. Rabid Right wars please! Take it off list guys. Greg From eric.scheid at ironclad.net.au Wed May 4 17:45:53 2005 From: eric.scheid at ironclad.net.au (Eric Scheid) Date: Wed May 4 17:46:41 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fw: NSW bans snoopy In-Reply-To: <1774488.1115183919926.JavaMail.administrator@10.0.0.14> Message-ID: > NSW bans email snooping > EMPLOYERS that read workers' private emails may soon risk criminal > charges with legal safeguards being introduced today by the NSW > government. > http://email.news.com.au/ct/click?q=c2-oXgLQUEO7UfZenrgVymXTZ4M (sorry, couldn't resist changing the headline ;-) From brendansweb at optusnet.com.au Wed May 4 18:37:48 2005 From: brendansweb at optusnet.com.au (Brendan Scott) Date: Wed May 4 18:38:00 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fw: NSW bans snoopy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <427889DC.7030301@optusnet.com.au> Eric Scheid wrote: >>NSW bans email snooping > > >>EMPLOYERS that read workers' private emails may soon risk criminal >>charges with legal safeguards being introduced today by the NSW >>government. > > >>http://email.news.com.au/ct/click?q=c2-oXgLQUEO7UfZenrgVymXTZ4M As I understand it, if the employer notifies the employee of the surveillance it's open season (subject to Cth laws) and there is no protection to the employees if they object to surveillance. Brendan From cas at taz.net.au Wed May 4 19:03:10 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Wed May 4 19:01:38 2005 Subject: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... In-Reply-To: <20050504083015.4d923464.kauer@biplane.com.au> References: <20050504010947.0623e20d.kauer@biplane.com.au> <20050504002652.GK18150@taz.net.au> <20050504024245.5447cdce.kauer@biplane.com.au> <20050504024752.GM18150@taz.net.au> <20050504083015.4d923464.kauer@biplane.com.au> Message-ID: <20050504090310.GP18150@taz.net.au> On Wed, May 04, 2005 at 08:30:15AM +0200, Karl Auer wrote: > > then what are you complaining about? > > Such agencies blocking more than they have concrete evidence for, and > blocking ranges that are not in fact "guilty" except by association. whether you like it or not, they can list whatever they like on their own lists....and some people agree with them that blacklisting an entire ISP's network for repeatedly failing to remove a spammer from their network is not only acceptable, it is essential. if you think you have a better policy, create your own list. maybe people will choose to use it. maybe not. same as SPEWS' lists - some choose to use them, some do not. even if you do that, people will still block mail for reasons you disagree with. and, right or wrong, there is absolutely nothing you can do about that. their mail server, their choice. you have no say in the matter, nor should you. > > that sounds like you have a good case to argue that the listing was > > erroneous, if the IP address you were allocated had nothing to do > > with telstra. > > I did argue exactly that case. It still took months for anything to be > fixed. And my claim was never actually acknowledged. > > > perhaps if you had tried that, *WITHOUT* going ballistic at the > > first > > As I've said several times, I asked very politely at first. In fact > all my messages were polite, though they were certainly very pointed > after the first few. At no stage did I "go ballistic", and in any case > that's not the point. Even if someone *does* "go ballistic" an agency > like spews has the same duty of care. SPEWS is not ORBS. do not blame SPEWS for what ORBS did in the past. ORBS doesn't even exist any more, it hasn't existed for years. > > if my address space ever gets in an RBL then i'll know what to do - > > i won't flail around whinging at the wrong people. > > No - just like me you you will start politely, pass through > desperation into despondence, it will get you absolutely nowhere, and > then you will be known as the Pineapple King. Come chat to us then. if you had bothered to read my last message, you would have read that some of my IP addresses have been RBLed in the past, and that i managed to get them de-lsited without any difficulty, and that i didn't end up all bitter and twisted over the incidents. the incidents were much less of an annoyance than the constant barrage of spam - i've had a lot more downtime and hassle on mail servers due to excess spam load than i've ever had from RBL listings. approx. 2 or 3 times in the last 10 years doesn't even begin to compare to being bombarded with spam, viruses, spammer relay probes, dictionary attacks, back-scatter and other spammer abuses every single day. > > anyone who finds it difficult does not, IMO, have enough of a clue > > to be running a mail server on the internet. > > And there - right there! - is the reason why you are full of it :-) actually, there are a lot of people running mail servers on the net who should NOT be. they are too incompetent, too clueless, too ignorant to do the task properly and securely. THEY are equally responsible for the spam and virus problem as the spammers and virus authors. if it wasn't for their incompetence and their failure to take action then spam would never have become the problem that it is. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From karl.auer at id.ethz.ch Wed May 4 19:20:14 2005 From: karl.auer at id.ethz.ch (Auer, Karl James) Date: Wed May 4 19:20:33 2005 Subject: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... Message-ID: <151A0967A7AEBE49BCF271F740CEEB0FF86D15@EX6.d.ethz.ch> Sorry Craig, not interested any more. Discussions are good, but this is not my idea of fun. Perhaps you will one day realise that the world is not actually so clear-cut as you imagine. Funny, until this recent exchange I'd never had you in the same basket as Vic. Regards, k. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Karl Auer (karl.auer@id.ethz.ch) Geschaeft/work +41- 1-6327531 Kommunikation, ETHZ RZ Privat/home +41-43-2660706 Eidgenoessische Technische Hochschule, Zuerich Fax +41- 1-6321225 Clausiusstrasse 59 CH-8092 ZUERICH Switzerland > -----Original Message----- > From: Craig Sanders [mailto:cas@taz.net.au] > Sent: Mittwoch, 4. Mai 2005 11:03 > To: Karl Auer > Cc: link@anumail0.anu.edu.au > Subject: Re: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... > > On Wed, May 04, 2005 at 08:30:15AM +0200, Karl Auer wrote: > > > then what are you complaining about? > > > > Such agencies blocking more than they have concrete > evidence for, and > > blocking ranges that are not in fact "guilty" except by association. > > whether you like it or not, they can list whatever they like on their > own lists....and some people agree with them that > blacklisting an entire > ISP's network for repeatedly failing to remove a spammer from their > network is not only acceptable, it is essential. > > if you think you have a better policy, create your own list. maybe > people will choose to use it. maybe not. same as SPEWS' lists - some > choose to use them, some do not. > > even if you do that, people will still block mail for reasons you > disagree with. and, right or wrong, there is absolutely > nothing you can > do about that. their mail server, their choice. you have no say in the > matter, nor should you. > > > > > that sounds like you have a good case to argue that the > listing was > > > erroneous, if the IP address you were allocated had nothing to do > > > with telstra. > > > > I did argue exactly that case. It still took months for > anything to be > > fixed. And my claim was never actually acknowledged. > > > > > perhaps if you had tried that, *WITHOUT* going ballistic at the > > > first > > > > As I've said several times, I asked very politely at first. In fact > > all my messages were polite, though they were certainly very pointed > > after the first few. At no stage did I "go ballistic", and > in any case > > that's not the point. Even if someone *does* "go ballistic" > an agency > > like spews has the same duty of care. > > SPEWS is not ORBS. do not blame SPEWS for what ORBS did in > the past. ORBS > doesn't even exist any more, it hasn't existed for years. > > > > if my address space ever gets in an RBL then i'll know > what to do - > > > i won't flail around whinging at the wrong people. > > > > No - just like me you you will start politely, pass through > > desperation into despondence, it will get you absolutely > nowhere, and > > then you will be known as the Pineapple King. Come chat to us then. > > if you had bothered to read my last message, you would have read that > some of my IP addresses have been RBLed in the past, and that > i managed > to get them de-lsited without any difficulty, and that i didn't end up > all bitter and twisted over the incidents. > > the incidents were much less of an annoyance than the constant barrage > of spam - i've had a lot more downtime and hassle on mail servers due > to excess spam load than i've ever had from RBL listings. approx. 2 or > 3 times in the last 10 years doesn't even begin to compare to being > bombarded with spam, viruses, spammer relay probes, > dictionary attacks, > back-scatter and other spammer abuses every single day. > > > > > anyone who finds it difficult does not, IMO, have enough of a clue > > > to be running a mail server on the internet. > > > > And there - right there! - is the reason why you are full of it :-) > > actually, there are a lot of people running mail servers on > the net who > should NOT be. they are too incompetent, too clueless, too ignorant to > do the task properly and securely. THEY are equally > responsible for the > spam and virus problem as the spammers and virus authors. if it wasn't > for their incompetence and their failure to take action then > spam would > never have become the problem that it is. > > > craig > > -- > craig sanders (part time cyborg) > > From stil at stilgherrian.com Wed May 4 19:59:52 2005 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Wed May 4 20:00:06 2005 Subject: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... In-Reply-To: <20050504090310.GP18150@taz.net.au> Message-ID: Apart from the very poor behaviour being exhibited, this "discussion" seems to be missing the point. It's not about whether someone has the right to not receive email, but about the processes in place for dealing with spam. SPEWS and similar believe that blocking entire ISPs is the right way to escalate the problem. I disagree. And what seems more problematic is that SPEWS hides behind a cloak of anonymity and its supporters seem incapable of listening to any criticism -- instead, they just attack the critics. The SPEWS argument is that by increasing the collateral damage, then eventually either customer pressure will cause the "spam haven" ISP to clean up its act, or the exodus of customers will send it broke. I don't think this works because: * Most customers don't understand what's going on. All they know is that their email is bouncing, and they're not sure why. Most customers are ordinary consumers or small business owners, and they don't read or understand bounce messages. * Even if a customer does understand the message, they'll just complain to their ISP. The ISP will say "We're working on it, but it's really because the recipient is blocking your email." * The response cycle is too slow. Spammers can move to a new server in moments. These days spammers can hire networks of zombie computers and blast out millions of emails from random locations. But for a customer to work through an ISPs complaints process takes days. And to change ISPs can take much longer -- especially if the customer is locked into a fixed-term contract. * Conversely, for a large ISP, even if they squash down one spammer quickly, another one can arise. Even though they deal with each incident promptly, from the outside it'll look like "there's always spammers". The ISP is fighting a losing battle. Here's a real-world example which is happening RIGHT NOW... Currently email from the customers of one major Australian ISP (Pacific Internet) to another Australian ISP (Unwired) is being blocked. ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ---- (reason: 554 : Client host rejected: BlueTie SMTP R1: SPAM rejected - see http://www.bluetie.com/rejectSMTP) Unwired has outsourced their spam filtering to an American company called BlueTie. BlueTie's block list includes Pacific Internet's main outbound mail relay. The immediate difficulty is reporting the problem. That URL in BlueTie's bounce message takes you to a form to get the block removed. Except the form doesn't work. The telephone number listed on the form is wrong. You do get transferred to the right number -- but since BlueTie is an American company their office isn't staffed during Australian business hours. Unwired can't help, apart from take a message that they pass on to BlueTie. Pacific Internet's customers can't email Unwired to complain -- because Unwired's email is "protected" by BlueTie. And they can't email BlueTie directly, because they're similarly protected. T'riffic. I don't know what the solution IS, but I know that SPEWS ain't it. Stil -- Stilgherrian Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia. ABN 25 231 641 421 mobile 0407 623 600 (international +61 407 623 600) fax 02 9516 5630 (international +61 2 9516 5630) From stil at stilgherrian.com Wed May 4 20:04:14 2005 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Wed May 4 20:04:18 2005 Subject: [LINK] Tonight's Essay Topic Message-ID: There's no more need for Internet users to know about configuring a mail server or how email is routed than there is for users of the public roads and highways to be automotive or civil engineers. Discuss. -- Stilgherrian Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia. ABN 25 231 641 421 mobile 0407 623 600 (international +61 407 623 600) fax 02 9516 5630 (international +61 2 9516 5630) From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au Wed May 4 22:37:18 2005 From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee) Date: Wed May 4 22:37:22 2005 Subject: [LINK] Tonight's Essay Topic In-Reply-To: ; from stil@stilgherrian.com on Wed, May 04, 2005 at 08:04:14PM +1000 References: Message-ID: <20050504223718.A7668@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> Stilgherrian wrote: > There's no more need for Internet users to know about configuring > a mail server or how email is routed than there is for users of the > public roads and highways to be automotive or civil engineers. > > Discuss. No one should be allowed to exist without a PhD in evolutionary biology. And while we're at it, can we restrict the franchise to trained historians? Danny. ---------------------------------------------------------- http://dannyreviews.com/ - over eight hundred book reviews http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog ---------------------------------------------------------- From tal at pacific.net.au Wed May 4 23:36:12 2005 From: tal at pacific.net.au (tal) Date: Wed May 4 23:38:29 2005 Subject: [LINK] Tonight's Essay Topic In-Reply-To: <20050504223718.A7668@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> References: <20050504223718.A7668@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <1115213771.5843.34.camel@canetoad> On Wed, 2005-05-04 at 22:37, Danny Yee wrote: > Stilgherrian wrote: > > There's no more need for Internet users to know about configuring > > a mail server or how email is routed than there is for users of the > > public roads and highways to be automotive or civil engineers. > > > > Discuss. > > No one should be allowed to exist without a PhD in evolutionary biology. unfair, Danny! unicellular organisms should be able to get away with a BSc hons 2:2 > And while we're at it, can we restrict the franchise to trained historians? > > Danny. Tim Lister South Sydney Greens (02)9557 4050 timlister@webspinning.org http://ssg.nsw.greens.org.au "Think Globally, Act Locally" From julian_bajkowski at idg.com.au Thu May 5 09:40:31 2005 From: julian_bajkowski at idg.com.au (julian_bajkowski@idg.com.au) Date: Thu May 5 09:35:43 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fw: NSW bans snoopy In-Reply-To: <427889DC.7030301@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: Does anyone have a link to the actual text of the Bill that has been introduced before the NSW Lower House? (rather than passed)? From marghanita at ramin.com.au Thu May 5 09:42:25 2005 From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz) Date: Thu May 5 09:39:09 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fw: NSW bans snoopy In-Reply-To: <427889DC.7030301@optusnet.com.au> References: <427889DC.7030301@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <42795DE1.3020308@ramin.com.au> By now most organisations should have introduced personal use policies for organisational resources such as email and telephones. What kind of protection are you looking for? Marghanita Brendan Scott wrote: > Eric Scheid wrote: > >>> NSW bans email snooping >> >> >> >>> EMPLOYERS that read workers' private emails may soon risk criminal >>> charges with legal safeguards being introduced today by the NSW >>> government. >> >> >> >>> http://email.news.com.au/ct/click?q=c2-oXgLQUEO7UfZenrgVymXTZ4M > > > > As I understand it, if the employer notifies the employee of the > surveillance it's open season (subject to Cth laws) and there is no > protection to the employees if they object to surveillance. > > > Brendan > > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Marghanita da Cruz Director, Ramin Communications Pty Ltd http://www.ramin.com.au ABN 28-089-713-084 Chair ACS Governance of ICT Committee http://www.acs.org.au/governance Telephone: 0414-869202 mailto:marghanita@ramin.com.au From marghanita at ramin.com.au Thu May 5 09:50:05 2005 From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz) Date: Thu May 5 09:46:40 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fw: NSW bans snoopy In-Reply-To: <427889DC.7030301@optusnet.com.au> References: <427889DC.7030301@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <42795FAD.1060106@ramin.com.au> Just read the article, the legislation seems to be about surveillance > The new laws will make it a criminal offence to take part in any form of covert surveillance unless an employer can prove they had reasonable suspicion of wrong doing by an employee. > > "While some employers argue that this is necessary to protect their legitimate interests, employees expect that their private correspondence, like their private telephone calls or private conversations, should never be the subject of secret monitoring," NSW Attorney General Bob Debus said in a statement. > > "We don't tolerate employers unlawfully placing cameras in change rooms and toilets. M Brendan Scott wrote: > Eric Scheid wrote: > >>> NSW bans email snooping >> >> >> >>> EMPLOYERS that read workers' private emails may soon risk criminal >>> charges with legal safeguards being introduced today by the NSW >>> government. >> >> >> >>> http://email.news.com.au/ct/click?q=c2-oXgLQUEO7UfZenrgVymXTZ4M > > > > As I understand it, if the employer notifies the employee of the > surveillance it's open season (subject to Cth laws) and there is no > protection to the employees if they object to surveillance. > > > Brendan > > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Marghanita da Cruz Director, Ramin Communications Pty Ltd http://www.ramin.com.au ABN 28-089-713-084 Chair ACS Governance of ICT Committee http://www.acs.org.au/governance Telephone: 0414-869202 mailto:marghanita@ramin.com.au From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au Thu May 5 10:11:00 2005 From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington) Date: Thu May 5 10:16:14 2005 Subject: [LINK] NSW Library content not just for iMode Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050322162024.01cdd460@tomw.net.au> The State Library of NSW launched a project to put its Australian culture collection on the Web . This is a noble ambition. According to a news report, the best of this will also available via mobile phones, but only Telstra's i-mode mobile phones: "Telstra chairman Donald McGauchie said delivery of the collection over Telstra's i-mode service could allow Australian children to do their homework on the bus to school by accessing the collection via their i-mode mobile phones." ("AU$1.5 billion of Australian culture goes online", By Renai LeMay, ZDNet Australia 21 March 2005: ) Converting the Library's content to only be available to Telstra i-mode customers would bad policy, be a poor use of public resources and may be unlawful. But it turns out that because the Library has done a reasonable job in making the web site accessible to the disabled it already works reasonably well on non-iMode phones . I am not sure if anyone wants to look at the Library's content on a mobile phone, but the same techniques also make it usable on a large screen in a school classroom. The Library should put its effort into improving the accessibility of the web site for all, not just the users of one brand of mobile phone. Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 http://www.tomw.net.au PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 Visiting Fellow, Computer Science, Australian National University From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Thu May 5 10:47:05 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Thu May 5 10:47:21 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fw: NSW bans snoopy Message-ID: <20050505004705.NGLR29550.swebmail01.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> It appears not to be in the NSW Hansard list yet, however yesterday's NSW Hansard transcript has Debus' long explanation to the house. RC > > From: julian_bajkowski@idg.com.au > Date: 05/05/2005 9:40:31 > To: Link@anumail0.anu.edu.au > Subject: Re: [LINK] Fw: NSW bans snoopy > > Does anyone have a link to the actual text of the Bill that has been > introduced before the NSW Lower House? (rather than passed)? > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Thu May 5 11:02:44 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Thu May 5 11:02:48 2005 Subject: [LINK] NSW Library content not just for iMode Message-ID: <20050505010244.NGVD29550.swebmail01.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> > > From: Tom Worthington > Date: 05/05/2005 10:11:00 > To: link > Subject: [LINK] NSW Library content not just for iMode > > The State Library of NSW launched a project to put its Australian culture > collection on the Web > . This is a noble > ambition. According to a news report, the best of this will also available > via mobile phones, but only Telstra's i-mode mobile phones: > > "Telstra chairman Donald McGauchie said delivery of the collection over > Telstra's i-mode service could allow Australian children to do their > homework on the bus to school by accessing the collection via their i-mode > mobile phones." ("AU$1.5 billion of Australian culture goes online", By > Renai LeMay, ZDNet Australia 21 March 2005: > ) > > Converting the Library's content to only be available to Telstra i-mode > customers would bad policy, be a poor use of public resources and may be > unlawful. How many documents fit in a megabyte? "But Dad, I need the i-mode phone for homework!" Someone who (say) bought a GPRS 2Meg per month plan ($25) and overshot it by 2M would be up for $250. I really hate it when people turn education into a cargo cult. RC > But it turns out that because the Library has done a reasonable > job in making the web site accessible to the disabled it already works > reasonably well on non-iMode phones > . > > I am not sure if anyone wants to look at the Library's content on a mobile > phone, but the same techniques also make it usable on a large screen in a > school classroom. The Library should put its effort into improving the > accessibility of the web site for all, not just the users of one brand of > mobile phone. > > > > Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 > Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 > http://www.tomw.net.au PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 > Visiting Fellow, Computer Science, Australian National University > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au From marghanita at ramin.com.au Thu May 5 13:38:38 2005 From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz) Date: Thu May 5 13:35:21 2005 Subject: [LINK] NSW Library content not just for iMode In-Reply-To: <20050505010244.NGVD29550.swebmail01.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> References: <20050505010244.NGVD29550.swebmail01.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> Message-ID: <4279953E.3080305@ramin.com.au> Shouldn't that be buswork? rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > "But Dad, I need the i-mode phone for homework!" -- Marghanita da Cruz Director, Ramin Communications Pty Ltd http://www.ramin.com.au ABN 28-089-713-084 Chair ACS Governance of ICT Committee http://www.acs.org.au/governance Telephone: 0414-869202 mailto:marghanita@ramin.com.au From jbirch at multinode.com.au Thu May 5 13:42:18 2005 From: jbirch at multinode.com.au (Jim Birch) Date: Thu May 5 13:45:26 2005 Subject: [LINK] Tonight's Essay Topic In-Reply-To: References: <20050504223718.A7668@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <4279961A.8090100@multinode.com.au> tal wrote: >unfair, Danny! unicellular organisms should be able to get away with a >BSc hons 2:2 > > Prokaryotes wagged high school. -- Jim Birch jbirch@multinode.com.au t: 04 1243 1243 ----- What is a sheep only millions of little bits of sheepness whirling around and doing intricate convolutions inside the sheep? What else is it but that? -- Flan O'Brien From drose at nla.gov.au Thu May 5 13:47:59 2005 From: drose at nla.gov.au (Daniel Rose) Date: Thu May 5 13:48:02 2005 Subject: FW: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... Message-ID: <3F8819281E85774CA6CE6F4FB842874F08E32F@gimli.shire.nla.gov.au> I notice noone commented a while ago on the comparison of spam, a business cost/annoyance, to toxic waste which _kills people_: Karl: How about comparing things like SPEWS to a credit reference agency? Craig: Why? that's a pretty dumb comparison to make. Karl: Sometimes, Craig, you are really full of it. Not often, but sometimes. Craig: [Being a Telstra customer] is exactly the same as if you keep buying products from a company you KNOW is pouring toxic carcinogenic waste into the local water supply - your knowledge means that your continued financial support makes you guilty. Now Craig step back and be fair -- why is it dumb to compare checking with a listing agency prior to a transaction with checking with a listing agency prior to a transaction, in each case to determine something about the nature of the other party? Further, if that is dumb, why then is it OK to compare an ISP which carries (annoying) spam created by others with a factory generating poison which kills people? Your stance is somewhat inconsistent... From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Thu May 5 13:55:33 2005 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Thu May 5 13:55:39 2005 Subject: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4 May 2005, at 1:21 PM, Stephen Jenkin wrote: > Is there any notion of 'netiquette' on this list, or is it just a > free-for-all?? Rants, discussions shifting into interesting sidelights, flames etc etc are invited to shift to unlink. That what I set it up for; to try and divert such material off link rather than me becoming a list f?hrer. Details on unlink are at http://tony-barry.emu.id.au/lists/unlink/ Tony phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From chris at sw.oz.au Thu May 5 14:44:03 2005 From: chris at sw.oz.au (Chris Maltby) Date: Thu May 5 14:45:09 2005 Subject: [LINK] Tonight's Essay Topic In-Reply-To: <20050504223718.A7668@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> References: <20050504223718.A7668@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <20050505044402.GJ22968@aurema.com> > Stilgherrian wrote: >> There's no more need for Internet users to know about configuring >> a mail server or how email is routed than there is for users of the >> public roads and highways to be automotive or civil engineers. >> >> Discuss. On Wed, May 04, 2005 at 10:37:18PM +1000, Danny Yee wrote: > No one should be allowed to exist without a PhD in evolutionary biology. > > And while we're at it, can we restrict the franchise to trained historians? Hey! What about us ethno-musicologists? From link at todd.inoz.com Thu May 5 15:02:54 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Thu May 5 15:06:30 2005 Subject: [LINK] Tonight's Essay Topic In-Reply-To: <20050505044402.GJ22968@aurema.com> References: <20050504223718.A7668@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <20050504223718.A7668@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050505150200.02dc3710@wheresmymailserver.com> At 14:44 5/05/2005 +1000, Chris Maltby wrote: > > Stilgherrian wrote: > >> There's no more need for Internet users to know about configuring > >> a mail server or how email is routed than there is for users of the > >> public roads and highways to be automotive or civil engineers. > >> > >> Discuss. > >On Wed, May 04, 2005 at 10:37:18PM +1000, Danny Yee wrote: > > No one should be allowed to exist without a PhD in evolutionary biology. > > > > And while we're at it, can we restrict the franchise to trained historians? > >Hey! What about us ethno-musicologists? Oiy! Us filmoplasmic-magneticuloid types want in on this! We're famous for making history live over and over and over and over, especially when you don't want it to! From link at todd.inoz.com Thu May 5 15:01:33 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Thu May 5 15:06:35 2005 Subject: FW: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... In-Reply-To: <3F8819281E85774CA6CE6F4FB842874F08E32F@gimli.shire.nla.gov .au> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050505150054.033a9a80@wheresmymailserver.com> >Now Craig step back and be fair -- why is it dumb to compare checking >with a listing agency prior to a transaction with checking with a >listing agency prior to a transaction, in each case to determine >something about the nature of the other party? Further, if that is >dumb, why then is it OK to compare an ISP which carries (annoying) spam >created by others with a factory generating poison which kills people? > >Your stance is somewhat inconsistent... Daniel, you raise a good point. Craig runs an ISP and his servers transfer SPAM too. That, by his own stance, makes him guilty of SPAMING :) From cas at taz.net.au Thu May 5 18:23:40 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Thu May 5 18:22:09 2005 Subject: FW: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... In-Reply-To: <3F8819281E85774CA6CE6F4FB842874F08E32F@gimli.shire.nla.gov.au> References: <3F8819281E85774CA6CE6F4FB842874F08E32F@gimli.shire.nla.gov.au> Message-ID: <20050505082340.GQ18150@taz.net.au> On Thu, May 05, 2005 at 01:47:59PM +1000, Daniel Rose wrote: > I notice noone commented a while ago on the comparison of spam, a > business cost/annoyance, to toxic waste which _kills people_: spam is not just a business cost/annoyance. it is intrusive, it is an invasion of privacy, it is bulk, automated harassment, it is offensive, it is almost always a fraud or scam, and it is destructive of communications infrastructure (and while nowhere near as deadly as toxic waste in the water supply, broken comms infrastructure can and has contributed to human death). the cost to business is the LEAST of the problems caused by spam. > Craig: > [Being a Telstra customer] is exactly the same as if you keep buying ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > products from a company you KNOW is pouring toxic carcinogenic waste > into the local water supply - your knowledge means that your continued > financial support makes you guilty. that is nothing like what i said. i did not say "[Being a Telstra customer]". what i said was (paraphrased) "knowingly being a customer of a spam-haven ISP". if you knowingly support scum like that financially then YOU *ARE* at least partially responsible for their crimes. > Now Craig step back and be fair -- why is it dumb to compare checking > with a listing agency prior to a transaction with checking with a > listing agency prior to a transaction, in each case to determine > something about the nature of the other party? a credit reference agency lists private personal details about individuals often collected without the individuals' knowledge or consent(*). an RBL lists some publicly available fact or someone's opinion about an IP address or range of IP addresses, it says nothing about any individual that happens to be using those address(es). see the difference? (*) fine-print embedded in incomprehensible legalese does not constitute knowledge OR consent. > Further, if that is dumb, why then is it OK to compare an ISP which > carries (annoying) spam created by others with a factory generating > poison which kills people? the comparison wasn't between the factory and the ISP. the comparison was between the people who choose to financially support either the factory or the ISP or both in the full knowledge of the crime they are committing. in my book, that makes them accessories to the crime. you can't just wipe your hands and say "I didn't spam" or "I didn't poison the water" if you know that your money is directly contributing to some company that does those things. YOU are responsible for your actions and for the direct consequences of your actions. > Your stance is somewhat inconsistent... no, perfectly consistent. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From cas at taz.net.au Thu May 5 18:37:52 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Thu May 5 18:36:27 2005 Subject: FW: [LINK] Just out of curiosity... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20050505150054.033a9a80@wheresmymailserver.com> References: <3F8819281E85774CA6CE6F4FB842874F08E32F@gimli.shire.nla.gov.au> <5.1.0.14.0.20050505150054.033a9a80@wheresmymailserver.com> Message-ID: <20050505083752.GR18150@taz.net.au> On Thu, May 05, 2005 at 03:01:33PM +1000, Adam "Clueless" Todd wrote: > Craig runs an ISP and his servers transfer SPAM too. That, by his own > stance, makes him guilty of SPAMING :) as usual, you don't have the faintest clue on what you are talking about. i do not run an ISP. i never have. i probably never will, and i certainly have no interest in running a dialup/adsl or other end-user "last-mile" connectivity type ISP. i have at various times in the past worked as systems admin for ISPs, or provided consulting services to ISPs. i am not currently working for any ISP, nor am i in the job market looking to work for another ISP - i wouldn't turn down interesting ISP-related consulting work if it was offered to me, but i'm not actively looking for it. any mail servers that i run are about as protected against spam and virus as it's possible to be. i doubt if anyone on this list could do as good a job as me when it comes to blocking spam. in fact, i doubt if there's many people in this country who even come close to my anti-spam skills. in short, i have no cause to feel any guilt about any trivial amount of spam that makes it through my filters. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Thu May 5 19:59:29 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Thu May 5 20:27:06 2005 Subject: [LINK] white collar comedy Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20050505194806.01e18e98@popa.melbpc.org.au> for you weekend. >Subject: [Commons-Law] Parody of WIPO's Copyright Comic > >Hi all > >The WIPO as a part of their pedagogic mission have been brining out a >series of comics on Copyright, TM and patent. > >A few of us at ALF have been working a response to these comics, and we >have now finished ver 1.0 of the response to the Copyright Comic and are >working on a response to TM and Patent Comics. > >What we have done is basically use the base comics to create a counter >story, by changing the dialogues in the blurbs and adding images etc, in >other words a remixed version of the WIPO Comics. Hope you enjoy it, and >Anyone interested in making changes to it, helping with the next >versions on patent TM etc please feel free to mail namita@altlawforum.org > >You can find these at > >Right2Copy Comic: http://www.altlawforum.org/lawmedia/CC.pdf > > >The 'original' comic can be found >http://www.wipo.org/about-wipo/en/info_center/cartoons/pdf/copyright_cartoon.pdf > JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From stephen at melbpc.org.au Thu May 5 23:06:15 2005 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley) Date: Thu May 5 23:06:39 2005 Subject: [LINK] Google Web Accelerator Message-ID: <427A1A47.5080407@melbpc.org.au> Hi all .. This Google Labs initiative was released yesterday. Their program installed smoothly, with some extra privacy disclaimers to agree to, and seems to work ok, though I have yet to see much time saved on the little clock that has appeared in both IE and Mozilla toolbars ... ** Google Web Accelerator ** 1. What is Google Web Accelerator? Google Web Accelerator is an application that uses the power of Google's global computer network to make web pages load faster. Google Web Accelerator is easy to use; all you have to do is download (1.38Mb) and install it, and from then on many web pages will automatically load faster than before. (snip ..) 2. How does Google Web Accelerator work? Google Web Accelerator uses various strategies to make your web pages load faster, including: * Sending your page requests through Google machines dedicated to handling Google Web Accelerator traffic. * Storing copies of frequently looked at pages to make them quickly accessible. * Downloading only the updates if a web page has changed slightly since you last viewed it. * Prefetching certain pages onto your computer in advance. * Managing your Internet connection to reduce delays. * Compressing data before sending it to your computer. 3. Can I use Google Web Accelerator with a dial-up connection? Dial-up users may not see much improvement, as Google Web Accelerator is currently optimized to speed up web page loading for broadband connections. -- Btw: here's how Google views IP Rights .. You acknowledge that Google or third parties own all right, title and interest in and to Google Web Accelerator .. including without limitation all Intellectual Property Rights. "Intellectual Property Rights" means any and all rights existing from time to time under patent law, copyright law, trade secret law, trademark law, unfair competition law, and any and all other proprietary rights, and any and all applications, renewals, extensions and restorations thereof, now or hereafter in force and effect worldwide. You agree not to modify, adapt, translate, prepare derivative works from, decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble or otherwise attempt to derive source code from Google Web Accelerator .. And, Google have included extra Privacy Conditions for this Google Labs product .. Google Web Accelerator sends requests for web pages, except for secure web pages (HTTPS), to Google, which logs these requests. Some web pages may embed personal information in these page requests. ? Google receives and temporarily caches cookie data that your computer sends with webpage requests in order to improve performance. ? In order to speed up delivery of content, Google Web Accelerator may retrieve webpage content that you did not request, and store it in your Google Web Accelerator cache. To learn more, read our Google Web Accelerator Privacy Policy (http://webaccelerator.google.com/privacy). -- Cheers all .. Stephen Loosley Melbourne, Australia From rw at firstpr.com.au Thu May 5 23:40:58 2005 From: rw at firstpr.com.au (Robin Whittle) Date: Thu May 5 23:40:24 2005 Subject: [LINK] Google Web Accelerator In-Reply-To: <427A1A47.5080407@melbpc.org.au> References: <427A1A47.5080407@melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <427A226A.40300@firstpr.com.au> > In order to speed up delivery of content, Google Web Accelerator may > retrieve webpage content that you did not request, and store it in your > Google Web Accelerator cache. Hmmm - say it decides to send you some file which violates local laws regarding porn/erotica, fortune-telling, political thought, copyright, gambling etc. and then the goon-squad breaks down your door and seizes your computer . . . - Robin http://www.firstpr.com.au From lannet at lannet.com.au Fri May 6 04:02:59 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Fri May 6 04:03:16 2005 Subject: [LINK] Google Web Accelerator In-Reply-To: <427A226A.40300@firstpr.com.au> References: <427A1A47.5080407@melbpc.org.au> <427A226A.40300@firstpr.com.au> Message-ID: <427A5FD3.5040400@lannet.com.au> Tou also can't say you weren't warned about this one either: "Google Web Accelerator sends requests for web pages, except for secure web pages (HTTPS), to Google, which logs these requests. Some web pages may embed personal information in these page requests." No bloody way will I be using GWA :( Robin Whittle wrote: >>In order to speed up delivery of content, Google Web Accelerator may >>retrieve webpage content that you did not request, and store it in your >>Google Web Accelerator cache. > > > Hmmm - say it decides to send you some file which violates local laws > regarding porn/erotica, fortune-telling, political thought, copyright, > gambling etc. and then the goon-squad breaks down your door and seizes > your computer . . . ...more likely all the pop-ad crap -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Fri May 6 08:08:27 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Fri May 6 08:08:26 2005 Subject: [LINK] Google Web Accelerator In-Reply-To: <427A5FD3.5040400@lannet.com.au> References: <427A1A47.5080407@melbpc.org.au> <427A226A.40300@firstpr.com.au> <427A5FD3.5040400@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <427A995B.4030908@ozemail.com.au> Not with a barge pole ... I also note in GWA that Google will cache some of the cookies that other sites send to the user. Hence: - I have the Google cookie; - I have (say) e-Bay cookies; - I have Amazon cookies; and - Google has all of these and is able to associate them with me. Now, I can't dispute Google's absolute and unchallengable right to do whatever it pleases with its own systems, but I certainly would never give someone that kind of depth of access to my information. RC Howard Lowndes wrote: > Tou also can't say you weren't warned about this one either: > > "Google Web Accelerator sends requests for web pages, except for secure > web pages (HTTPS), to Google, which logs these requests. Some web pages > may embed personal information in these page requests." > > No bloody way will I be using GWA :( > > Robin Whittle wrote: > >>> In order to speed up delivery of content, Google Web Accelerator may >>> retrieve webpage content that you did not request, and store it in your >>> Google Web Accelerator cache. >> >> >> >> Hmmm - say it decides to send you some file which violates local laws >> regarding porn/erotica, fortune-telling, political thought, copyright, >> gambling etc. and then the goon-squad breaks down your door and seizes >> your computer . . . > > > > ...more likely all the pop-ad crap > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Link mailing list >Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > > From lannet at lannet.com.au Fri May 6 09:00:39 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Fri May 6 09:00:57 2005 Subject: [LINK] Google Web Accelerator In-Reply-To: <427A995B.4030908@ozemail.com.au> References: <427A1A47.5080407@melbpc.org.au> <427A226A.40300@firstpr.com.au> <427A5FD3.5040400@lannet.com.au> <427A995B.4030908@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <427AA597.2060402@lannet.com.au> The trouble is that it's the old "puppy dog" technique. It all looks cute and cuddly up front, but grows into a monster and leave a heap of sh!t behind it. :) rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > Not with a barge pole ... I also note in GWA that Google will cache some > of the cookies that other sites send to the user. Hence: > > - I have the Google cookie; > - I have (say) e-Bay cookies; > - I have Amazon cookies; and > - Google has all of these and is able to associate them with me. > > Now, I can't dispute Google's absolute and unchallengable right to do > whatever it pleases with its own systems, but I certainly would never > give someone that kind of depth of access to my information. > > RC > > Howard Lowndes wrote: > >> Tou also can't say you weren't warned about this one either: >> >> "Google Web Accelerator sends requests for web pages, except for secure >> web pages (HTTPS), to Google, which logs these requests. Some web pages >> may embed personal information in these page requests." >> >> No bloody way will I be using GWA :( >> >> Robin Whittle wrote: >> >>>> In order to speed up delivery of content, Google Web Accelerator may >>>> retrieve webpage content that you did not request, and store it in your >>>> Google Web Accelerator cache. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hmmm - say it decides to send you some file which violates local laws >>> regarding porn/erotica, fortune-telling, political thought, copyright, >>> gambling etc. and then the goon-squad breaks down your door and seizes >>> your computer . . . >> >> >> >> >> ...more likely all the pop-ad crap >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Link mailing list >> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From hartr at interweft.com.au Fri May 6 10:46:11 2005 From: hartr at interweft.com.au (Robert Hart) Date: Fri May 6 10:45:43 2005 Subject: [LINK] Google Web Accelerator In-Reply-To: <427A995B.4030908@ozemail.com.au> References: <427A1A47.5080407@melbpc.org.au> <427A226A.40300@firstpr.com.au> <427A5FD3.5040400@lannet.com.au> <427A995B.4030908@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <1115340371.5978.140.camel@bree> On Fri, 2005-05-06 at 08:08 +1000, rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > Not with a barge pole ... I also note in GWA that Google will cache some > of the cookies that other sites send to the user. Hence: > > - I have the Google cookie; > - I have (say) e-Bay cookies; > - I have Amazon cookies; and > - Google has all of these and is able to associate them with me. > > Now, I can't dispute Google's absolute and unchallengable right to do > whatever it pleases with its own systems, but I certainly would never > give someone that kind of depth of access to my information. But you and I (and probably all of Link) are careful (some would say paranoid) about our privacy and know enough about technology to understand the implications of what GWA is doing. It is, IMHO, unlikely that Joe and Jane Sixpack (or their kids) will have either sufficient paranoia or understanding to stay well clear of this service. If it makes their web experience 'better' (ie faster), that will be enough. Only when the wheels fall off will they become concerned and yell loudly that they should have been told. -- Robert Hart hartr@interweft.com.au +61 (0)438 385 533 Brisbane, Australia http://www.hart.wattle.id.au From lannet at lannet.com.au Fri May 6 11:10:06 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Fri May 6 11:10:22 2005 Subject: [LINK] Google Web Accelerator In-Reply-To: <1115340371.5978.140.camel@bree> References: <427A1A47.5080407@melbpc.org.au> <427A226A.40300@firstpr.com.au> <427A5FD3.5040400@lannet.com.au> <427A995B.4030908@ozemail.com.au> <1115340371.5978.140.camel@bree> Message-ID: <427AC3EE.9090109@lannet.com.au> Robert Hart wrote: > On Fri, 2005-05-06 at 08:08 +1000, rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > >>Not with a barge pole ... I also note in GWA that Google will cache some >>of the cookies that other sites send to the user. Hence: >> >>- I have the Google cookie; >>- I have (say) e-Bay cookies; >>- I have Amazon cookies; and >>- Google has all of these and is able to associate them with me. >> >>Now, I can't dispute Google's absolute and unchallengable right to do >>whatever it pleases with its own systems, but I certainly would never >>give someone that kind of depth of access to my information. > > > But you and I (and probably all of Link) are careful (some would say > paranoid) about our privacy and know enough about technology to > understand the implications of what GWA is doing. > > It is, IMHO, unlikely that Joe and Jane Sixpack (or their kids) will > have either sufficient paranoia or understanding to stay well clear of > this service. If it makes their web experience 'better' (ie faster), > that will be enough. > > Only when the wheels fall off will they become concerned and yell loudly > that they should have been told. ...as they do when anything else comes back to bite them. > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au Thu May 5 13:09:42 2005 From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington) Date: Fri May 6 14:58:26 2005 Subject: [LINK] Tacit metadata, ANU Seminar, Canberra, 27 May 2005 Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050505130504.01dab840@tomw.net.au> All welcome to this free seminar. No need to book, just turn up: Seminar Announcement Department of Computer Science, FEIT The Australian National University Date: Friday, 27 May 2005 Time: 3:30 pm to 4:30 pm (followed by drinks) Venue: Room N101, CSIT Building [108] Speaker: Dr Matthew Allen (Internet Studies, Curtin University) Title: Scholarly metadata: can we go from tacit to automatic? Abstract: In this short, informal presentation Matthew Allen, will sketch a view of metadata that goes well beyond the allocation of tags or codes that describe scholarly publications in terms of content, of denotations of production or location within an orderly schema of knowledge. He suggests that we might, in electronic publishing of scholarly material, find ways to attach to that material a much richer set of metadata that makes explicit some of the often-tacit knowledge which academics depend upon in 'assessing' what scholarly information may or may not be useful for. Matthew lays out three possibilities for metadata - one that involves authors and producers of information providing distinctively different kinds of metadata (about both themselves and the publication) drawing on the example of online social networks such as rkut.com; one that involves users and readers providing that metadata and more (in the fashion of flickr.com); and one that involves, google-style, automated processes of understanding the uses and flows of scholarly information. Biography: Matthew Allen is Associate Professor, Internet Studies, Faculty of Media, Society and Culture at Curtin University. He leads teaching and research in the Internet Studies Program and is conducting research (when I can) into policy-making and regulation of the Internet, especially broadband development and its meaning. He leads Curtin's Master of E-Learning Development (MELD) Project and is the Vice-President of the Association of Internet Researchers and a member of the Western Australia State Library Board. URL: http://cs.anu.edu.au/lib/seminars/seminars05/ Further contact: M.Allen [at] exchange.curtin.edu.au Seminars homepage: http://cs.anu.edu.au/seminars/ If you like to give a seminar please contact: seminars-admin [at] cs.anu.edu.au Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 http://www.tomw.net.au PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 Visiting Fellow, Computer Science, Australian National University From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au Thu May 5 17:12:15 2005 From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington) Date: Fri May 6 14:58:52 2005 Subject: [LINK] NSW Library content not just for iMode In-Reply-To: <20050505010244.NGVD29550.swebmail01.mail.ozemail.net@local host> References: <20050505010244.NGVD29550.swebmail01.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050505171037.01d57e18@fastmail.fm> At 11:02 AM 5/5/2005, rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: >How many documents fit in a megabyte? ... I used my GSM/GPRS phone to download the slides for 20 minute talk and ended up with a $30 bill. The slides I was using were specially designed to download efficiently . The average Powerpoint presentation would cost hundreds of dollars. Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 http://www.tomw.net.au PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 Visiting Fellow, Computer Science, Australian National University From brd at iimetro.com.au Fri May 6 15:09:48 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Fri May 6 15:10:08 2005 Subject: [LINK] Victorian government elects open source for e-democracy platform Message-ID: <427AFC1B.2B8FF141@iimetro.com.au> Victorian government elects open source for e-democracy platform Michael Crawford Computerworld 06/05/2005 14:33:38 http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php?id=1174965887&eid=-6787 An inquiry into the potential of e-democracy in Victoria has recommended Internet broadcasting for parliament, the use of videoconferencing for parliamentary committees and the use of open source code for electronic voting kiosks. The use of electronic voting machines or kiosks is expected to make it easier for people with limited vision or poor English skills to vote. The Electronic Democracy Subcommittee, chaired by Victorian MP Michael Leighton said the use of open source is specifically recommended so voters can "be satisfied with the integrity of the system". "We have recommended the pilot of electronic voting machines at large polling places which will be stand-alone units with limited networking capabilities without Internet connections," Leighton said. "Diebold, the company that provides electronic voting machines, has a contract that is required to certify any new version of proprietary software; these are the sorts of reasons why we should be open source. "The other principle we recommended for electronic voting is that there is a paper trail -unlike what happened in the US presidential election. The machine would drop a sheet of paper into a sealed box after the vote so if there was any argument afterwards we have the capacity to verify the votes; this is an important principle for public confidence in the integrity of the system." Leighton said the line for "electronic democracy" would be drawn at Internet voting, and recommendations have been made that this not be considered. The inquiry also recommended developing training resources and places for public servants to use technology to engage the general public, the possibility of using RSS-styled news feeds from the Victorian government and state parliament, and electronic voting in parliament. Last week the Victorian Electoral Commission called for tenders for electronic voting machines -- (Edmund looks at Baldrick carrying a door, is not surprised, speaks calmly) "Baldrick, I would advise you to make the explanation you are about to give phenomenally good." "You said, 'Get the door.'" "Not good enough. You're fired." "But, My Lord, I've been in your family since 1532!" "So has syphilis. Now get out." -- Edmund and Baldrick (It's Friday afternoon ...) Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From whassaname at gmail.com Fri May 6 15:18:12 2005 From: whassaname at gmail.com (Johann Kruse) Date: Fri May 6 15:18:20 2005 Subject: [LINK] Google Web Accelerator In-Reply-To: <427A1A47.5080407@melbpc.org.au> References: <427A1A47.5080407@melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <7cb8694d0505052218750b499@mail.gmail.com> On 5/5/05, Stephen Loosley wrote: > > though I have yet to see much time saved on the > little clock that has appeared in both IE and Mozilla > toolbars ... >From http://webaccelerator.google.com/support.html " Also note that during the first part of our beta testing period, users outside of North America and Europe may not see much improvement in their web page loading speed. " No doubt that's to do with the physical location of their proxies/servers, but hopefully they'll put some in Australia some day? :) Johann From stil at stilgherrian.com Fri May 6 16:57:17 2005 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Fri May 6 16:57:41 2005 Subject: [LINK] Mobile phones reveal your location to within 100m Message-ID: >From Slattery's Watch newsletter earlier this week, news that your mobile phone can now be located to within 100m by commercial operators. Seeker Wireless trials in Sydney LBS solution provider Seeker Wireless claims they have achieved sub 100m location accuracy in the Sydney CBD using standard GSM handsets. General Manager of Seeker Wireless, Andrew Grill, sees the solution being complementary to planned or existing location based service offerings. One of the perceived barriers for the adoption of location based services in Australia has been the privacy concerns, but Seeker Wireless is a strong supporter of an industry-wide code of conduct regarding LBS. Seeker wireless is looking to start operations in Sydney in the coming months. For those not deeply into the jargon, LBS = Location-Based Services. Seeker Wireless' media release is at: http://www.seekerwireless.com/news/release210405.html Stil -- Stilgherrian Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia. ABN 25 231 641 421 mobile 0407 623 600 (international +61 407 623 600) fax 02 9516 5630 (international +61 2 9516 5630) From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Sat May 7 09:02:38 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Sat May 7 13:32:47 2005 Subject: [LINK] Victorian government elects open source for e-democracy platform In-Reply-To: <427AFC1B.2B8FF141@iimetro.com.au> References: <427AFC1B.2B8FF141@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20050507090004.01e84758@popa.melbpc.org.au> At 03:09 PM 6/05/2005, Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: >"The other principle we recommended for electronic voting is that there >is a paper trail -unlike what happened in the US presidential election. >The machine would drop a sheet of paper into a sealed box after the vote >so if there was any argument afterwards we have the capacity to verify >the votes; this is an important principle for public confidence in the >integrity of the system." They are to be congratulated in keeping a paper copy. However, unless the person who cast the vote is allowed to see that paper, there is no way to be certain that the vote was recorded properly. I know this is not an issue for blind people who wouldn't be able to see the paper anyway, but for sighted people, they could see that the vote was recorded as they wished. I'm not clear how this system of keeping the printed paper without a scrutiny by the vote caster helps much. There were instances in the US elections where votes that were given for one party were overridden inside the machine and switched to the other candidate, right before the eyes of the voter on the screen. Jan JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Sat May 7 08:52:45 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Sat May 7 13:32:52 2005 Subject: [LINK] NSW Library content not just for iMode In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050505171037.01d57e18@fastmail.fm> References: <20050505010244.NGVD29550.swebmail01.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <6.2.1.2.0.20050505171037.01d57e18@fastmail.fm> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20050507084946.01d732c8@popa.melbpc.org.au> At 05:12 PM 5/05/2005, Tom Worthington wrote: >>How many documents fit in a megabyte? ... > >I used my GSM/GPRS phone to download the slides for 20 minute talk and >ended up with a $30 bill. The slides I was using were specially designed >to download efficiently . The >average Powerpoint presentation would cost hundreds of dollars. Reminds me of the excess charges on some of the 'low cost' bb plans of $.15/MB = $150/GB. You gotta wonder how these new 'services' think they will escape criticism with that sort of cost associated with 'poor planning' and 'laziness' packaged as 'convenience' [re the bit about doing 'homework' on your phone]. Some outraged parent may end up taking a shot gun with them the next time they front up to a mobile phone retailer. Phone rage takes on a whole new meaning..... Jan JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Sat May 7 19:01:30 2005 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Sat May 7 19:01:48 2005 Subject: [LINK] eCommerce Works: Virtual Acorns, Real Money Message-ID: Koreans cybertrip to a tailor-made world The Sydney Morning Herald Date: May 7 2005 By Deborah Cameron in Tokyo http://www.smh.com.au/text/articles/2005/05/06/1115092690884.html Cyworld is like a new planet. On it everyone has a private room and a circle of friends who bring gifts. There is an inexhaustible range of home decoration possibilities and cool music. In South Korea, Cyworld is both a giant in the galaxy of cyberspace and a community website. It has 13 million residents and visitors, more than a quarter of the country's population. With it has come its own currency, slang and social pressure. In Cyworld an address is a "minihompy", which is short for mini-homepage or, between friends, simply a "hompy". A person with a homepage is called a "mini-me". New Cyworld citizens get a featureless empty room as part of their homepage package. The challenge is to decorate it and then construct a personality for mini-me. For Cyworld's owners, one of Seoul's most successful internet companies, the site makes 200 million won ($258,000) a day, according to the Samsung Economic Research Institute. Money pours in when the Cyworld population goes on a decorating, gift-buying or music downloading spree. The more attractive and interesting the room, the more visitors it gets, and in Cyworld popularity equates to fame and success. The site even measures "sexiness" and "friendliness", which it gauges by the number of gifts a person gives or receives. "Most of my friends had entered Cyworld before me and their mini-rooms showed just that," recounted Jennifer Park, a reporter for Seoul's OhMyNews. "They had tonnes of digital items such as fancy wallpapers, furniture, pets and more. Their number of visitors exceeded mine by far, triggering my ambition and jealousy." Ms Park says she spent so much time in Cyworld trying to build her popularity that she diagnosed herself a "cyholic" and quit. Almost every South Korean in their 20s has been a subscriber to the site, according to the president of SK Communications, Mr Yoo Hyun-oh, who owns it. The way people live in South Korea has probably contributed to the phenomenal success of Cyworld. Identical and economical but unlovely blocks of flats that rise by the hectare in commuter suburbs have created the perfect environment: a craving for escapism, and a dense and easily wired landscape for broadband companies. Today South Korea is the world's most internet-connected country. At the end of 2003, more than 11 million households - three-quarters of all homes - had broadband access which, according to cable companies, was saturation point. Cyworld started in 2001 but remained small until 2003, when its popularity exploded. The Cyworld currency is "dotori", Korean for acorn. An acorn costs 100 won (about 12 cents), which might sound like peanuts but it mounts up. Something small from the online shop might cost three acorns, but the average purchase costs 10 acorns and something elaborate might set the buyer back 20 acorns. The "rent" for some items has to be paid each month or they disappear. The acorns are sold at bookstores, milk bars and newsagents, or they can be bought by bank transfer, credit card or through a direct debit on a phone bill. Acorn gift vouchers were an instant hit when they came on the market in March - a staff recruitment agency found that after hard cash, acorns were the second preference as this year's New Year bonus. The Samsung Economic Research Institute, which has been tracking developments in Cyworld, was told by a 28-year-old graphic designer, who spent 10,000 won a month on acorns, that the gift vouchers were a great idea because when it comes to acorns "you can never have enough". -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd, 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in the Baker Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre, UNSW Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program, University of Hong Kong Visiting Fellow in Computer Science, Australian National University From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Sat May 7 19:16:13 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Sat May 7 19:16:06 2005 Subject: [LINK] NSW Library content not just for iMode In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20050507084946.01d732c8@popa.melbpc.org.au> References: <20050505010244.NGVD29550.swebmail01.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <6.2.1.2.0.20050505171037.01d57e18@fastmail.fm> <6.0.3.0.0.20050507084946.01d732c8@popa.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <427C875D.5020206@ozemail.com.au> > At 05:12 PM 5/05/2005, Tom Worthington wrote: > >>> How many documents fit in a megabyte? ... >> >> >> I used my GSM/GPRS phone to download the slides for 20 minute talk >> and ended up with a $30 bill. The slides I was using were specially >> designed to download efficiently >> . The average Powerpoint >> presentation would cost hundreds of dollars. > > > Reminds me of the excess charges on some of the 'low cost' bb plans of > $.15/MB = $150/GB. You gotta wonder how these new > 'services' think they will escape criticism with that sort of cost > associated with 'poor planning' and 'laziness' packaged as > 'convenience' [re the bit about doing 'homework' on your phone]. They escape criticism because of rampant apathy. I agree with you that criticism is warranted, but the Culture of the Unrocked Boat is really hard to overcome. RC > > Some outraged parent may end up taking a shot gun with them the next > time they front up to a mobile phone retailer. Phone rage takes on a > whole new meaning..... > > Jan > > > > JLWhitaker Associates > Melbourne, Victoria, Australia > jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm > > 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, > there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 > _ __________________ _ > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > From link at todd.inoz.com Sat May 7 13:34:50 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Sat May 7 21:01:42 2005 Subject: [LINK] Google Web Accelerator In-Reply-To: <427A1A47.5080407@melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050507133425.034059b8@wheresmymailserver.com> Squid does that too! At 23:06 5/05/2005 +1000, Stephen Loosley wrote: >Hi all .. > >This Google Labs initiative was released yesterday. > >Their program installed smoothly, with some extra >privacy disclaimers to agree to, and seems to work >ok, though I have yet to see much time saved on the >little clock that has appeared in both IE and Mozilla >toolbars ... > > ** Google Web Accelerator ** > > > > >2. How does Google Web Accelerator work? Google Web Accelerator uses >various strategies to make your web pages load faster, including: > > * Sending your page requests through Google machines dedicated to >handling Google Web Accelerator traffic. > * Storing copies of frequently looked at pages to make them quickly >accessible. > * Downloading only the updates if a web page has changed slightly >since you last viewed it. > * Prefetching certain pages onto your computer in advance. > * Managing your Internet connection to reduce delays. > * Compressing data before sending it to your computer. From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Sun May 8 08:25:28 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Sun May 8 08:31:13 2005 Subject: [LINK] Adobe buys Macromedia Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20050508082451.01d2eb90@popa.melbpc.org.au> From: Hoffman, Allen Allen.Hoffman@dhs.gov To: gui-talk@nfbnet.org Adobe Systems Incorporated (Nasdaq: ADBE) has announced a definitive agreement to acquire Macromedia (Nasdaq: MACR) in an all-stock transaction valued at approximately $3.4 billion. Under the terms of the agreement, which has been approved by both boards of directors, Macromedia stockholders will receive, at a fixed exchange ratio, 0.69 shares of Adobe common stock for every share of Macromedia common stock in a tax-free exchange. Based on Adobe's and Macromedia's closing prices on Friday April 15, 2005, this represents a price of $41.86 per share of Macromedia common stock. The combination of Adobe and Macromedia strengthens our mission of helping people and organizations communicate better. Through the combination of our powerful development, authoring and collaboration tools - and the complementary functionality of PDF and Flash - we have the opportunity to drive an industry-defining technology platform that delivers compelling, rich content and applications across a wide range of devices and operating systems. By combining the passion and creativity of two leading-edge companies, we will continue driving innovations that are changing the ways people everywhere are experiencing and interacting with information. Adobe is required to include the following legend on any communications that may be deemed to be offering or soliciting material under the applicable SEC rules and regulations: ADDITIONAL INFORMATION AND WHERE TO FIND IT Adobe Systems Incorporated intends to file a registration statement on Form S-4, and Adobe and Macromedia, Inc. intend to file a related joint proxy statement/prospectus, in connection with the merger transaction involving Adobe and Macromedia. Investors and security holders are urged to read the registration statement on Form S-4 and the related joint proxy/prospectus when they become available because they will contain important information about the merger transaction. Investors and security holders may obtain free copies of these documents (when they are available) and other documents filed with the SEC at the SEC's web site at www.sec.gov. In addition, investors and security holders may obtain free copies of the documents filed with the SEC by Adobe by contacting Macromedia Investor Relations at 408-536-4416. Investors and security holders may obtain free copies of the documents filed with the SEC by Macromedia by contacting Macromedia Investor Relations at 415-252-2106. Adobe, Macromedia and their directors and executive officers may be deemed to be participants in the solicitation of proxies from the stockholders of Adobe and Macromedia in connection with the merger transaction. Information regarding the special interests of these directors and executive officers in the merger transaction will be included in the joint proxy statement/prospectus of Adobe and Macromedia described above. Additional information regarding the directors and executive officers of Adobe is also included in Adobe's proxy statement for its 2005 Annual Meeting of Stockholders, which was filed with the SEC on March 14, 2005. Additional information regarding the directors and executive officers of Macromedia is also included in Macromedia's proxy statement for its 2004 Annual Meeting of Stockholders, which was filed with the SEC on June 21, 2004 and Macromedia's proxy statement for a Special Meeting of Stockholders, which was filed with the SEC on October 6, 2004. These documents are available free of charge at the SEC's web site at www.sec.gov and from Investor Relations at Adobe and Macromedia as described above. JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From lannet at lannet.com.au Sun May 8 08:40:51 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Sun May 8 08:41:05 2005 Subject: [LINK] eCommerce Works: Virtual Acorns, Real Money In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <427D43F3.6010706@lannet.com.au> How ridiculous; sad really. It makes you realise just how important it is to "get a life". Roger Clarke wrote: > > Koreans cybertrip to a tailor-made world > The Sydney Morning Herald > Date: May 7 2005 > By Deborah Cameron in Tokyo > http://www.smh.com.au/text/articles/2005/05/06/1115092690884.html > > Cyworld is like a new planet. On it everyone has a private room and a > circle of friends who bring gifts. There is an inexhaustible range of > home decoration possibilities and cool music. > > In South Korea, Cyworld is both a giant in the galaxy of cyberspace and > a community website. > > It has 13 million residents and visitors, more than a quarter of the > country's population. With it has come its own currency, slang and > social pressure. > > In Cyworld an address is a "minihompy", which is short for mini-homepage > or, between friends, simply a "hompy". A person with a homepage is > called a "mini-me". > > New Cyworld citizens get a featureless empty room as part of their > homepage package. The challenge is to decorate it and then construct a > personality for mini-me. > > For Cyworld's owners, one of Seoul's most successful internet companies, > the site makes 200 million won ($258,000) a day, according to the > Samsung Economic Research Institute. > > Money pours in when the Cyworld population goes on a decorating, > gift-buying or music downloading spree. The more attractive and > interesting the room, the more visitors it gets, and in Cyworld > popularity equates to fame and success. The site even measures > "sexiness" and "friendliness", which it gauges by the number of gifts a > person gives or receives. > > "Most of my friends had entered Cyworld before me and their mini-rooms > showed just that," recounted Jennifer Park, a reporter for Seoul's > OhMyNews. > > "They had tonnes of digital items such as fancy wallpapers, furniture, > pets and more. Their number of visitors exceeded mine by far, triggering > my ambition and jealousy." > > Ms Park says she spent so much time in Cyworld trying to build her > popularity that she diagnosed herself a "cyholic" and quit. Almost every > South Korean in their 20s has been a subscriber to the site, according > to the president of SK Communications, Mr Yoo Hyun-oh, who owns it. > > The way people live in South Korea has probably contributed to the > phenomenal success of Cyworld. Identical and economical but unlovely > blocks of flats that rise by the hectare in commuter suburbs have > created the perfect environment: a craving for escapism, and a dense and > easily wired landscape for broadband companies. > > Today South Korea is the world's most internet-connected country. At the > end of 2003, more than 11 million households - three-quarters of all > homes - had broadband access which, according to cable companies, was > saturation point. Cyworld started in 2001 but remained small until 2003, > when its popularity exploded. > > The Cyworld currency is "dotori", Korean for acorn. An acorn costs 100 > won (about 12 cents), which might sound like peanuts but it mounts up. > > Something small from the online shop might cost three acorns, but the > average purchase costs 10 acorns and something elaborate might set the > buyer back 20 acorns. The "rent" for some items has to be paid each > month or they disappear. > > The acorns are sold at bookstores, milk bars and newsagents, or they can > be bought by bank transfer, credit card or through a direct debit on a > phone bill. > > Acorn gift vouchers were an instant hit when they came on the market in > March - a staff recruitment agency found that after hard cash, acorns > were the second preference as this year's New Year bonus. > > The Samsung Economic Research Institute, which has been tracking > developments in Cyworld, was told by a 28-year-old graphic designer, who > spent 10,000 won a month on acorns, that the gift vouchers were a great > idea because when it comes to acorns "you can never have enough". > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From nospam at crm911.com Sun May 8 10:45:11 2005 From: nospam at crm911.com (Ash Nallawalla) Date: Sun May 8 10:45:16 2005 Subject: [LINK] Indian ICT, Neville Roach, Sydney, 29 November In-Reply-To: <42706BE4.3020108@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20050508004511.587B310CCF7@mail.netspace.net.au> > From: Brendan Scott [mailto:brendansweb@optusnet.com.au] > Tom Worthington wrote: > > This is a reminder about the free breakfast talk tomorrow > (Friday) in > > Sydney by Neville Roach, Chairman of National ICT Australia (NICTA): > > 8:00am 29 November 2004, Australian Technology Park, Bay 8 > It's been moved to Bay 4 apparently. Not to mention it has been moved to last year as well. :-) Ash From stephen at melbpc.org.au Sun May 8 14:28:38 2005 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley) Date: Sun May 8 14:30:04 2005 Subject: [LINK] Google Web Accelerator In-Reply-To: <7cb8694d0505052218750b499@mail.gmail.com> References: <427A1A47.5080407@melbpc.org.au> <7cb8694d0505052218750b499@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <427D9576.2080504@melbpc.org.au> Johann Kruse wrote: >> From http://webaccelerator.google.com/support.html > > " Also note that during the first part of our beta testing period, > users outside of North America and Europe may not see much > improvement in their web page loading speed. " > > No doubt that's to do with the physical location of their proxies/ > servers, but hopefully they'll put some in Australia some day? :) > > Johann Yes Johann, although two days after installing this little gem from Google, it is now saying it's saved 51 minutes for Mozilla and one hour for IE. Over about 10 hours browsing, I have noticed this to be fairly accurate. Haha .. funny some linkers who have admitted previously they know little very about security, other than general paranoia, have claimed doom and gloom as usual. Haha, so what? I well remember some linkers bemoaning the change from DOS :) Cheers Johann Stephen Loosley Victoria Australia From lannet at lannet.com.au Sun May 8 17:04:04 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Sun May 8 17:04:24 2005 Subject: [LINK] Google Web Accelerator In-Reply-To: <427D9576.2080504@melbpc.org.au> References: <427A1A47.5080407@melbpc.org.au> <7cb8694d0505052218750b499@mail.gmail.com> <427D9576.2080504@melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <427DB9E4.2090101@lannet.com.au> Stephen Loosley wrote: > Johann Kruse wrote: > >>> From http://webaccelerator.google.com/support.html >> >> >> " Also note that during the first part of our beta testing period, >> users outside of North America and Europe may not see much >> improvement in their web page loading speed. " >> >> No doubt that's to do with the physical location of their proxies/ >> servers, but hopefully they'll put some in Australia some day? :) >> >> Johann > > > Yes Johann, although two days after installing this little gem from > Google, it is now saying it's saved 51 minutes for Mozilla and one > hour for IE. Over about 10 hours browsing, I have noticed this to > be fairly accurate. Haha .. funny some linkers who have admitted > previously they know little very about security, other than general > paranoia, have claimed doom and gloom as usual. Haha, so what? It's not a question of security, rather of privacy. You, seemingly, have a different perspective on privacy from mine. > I well remember some linkers bemoaning the change from DOS :) > > Cheers Johann > Stephen Loosley > Victoria Australia > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Sun May 8 17:12:42 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Sun May 8 17:12:33 2005 Subject: [LINK] Google Web Accelerator In-Reply-To: <427D9576.2080504@melbpc.org.au> References: <427A1A47.5080407@melbpc.org.au> <7cb8694d0505052218750b499@mail.gmail.com> <427D9576.2080504@melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <427DBBEA.3090404@ozemail.com.au> Stephen Loosley wrote: > Johann Kruse wrote: > >>> From http://webaccelerator.google.com/support.html >> >> >> " Also note that during the first part of our beta testing period, >> users outside of North America and Europe may not see much >> improvement in their web page loading speed. " >> >> No doubt that's to do with the physical location of their proxies/ >> servers, but hopefully they'll put some in Australia some day? :) >> >> Johann > > > Yes Johann, although two days after installing this little gem from > Google, it is now saying it's saved 51 minutes for Mozilla and one > hour for IE. Over about 10 hours browsing, I have noticed this to > be fairly accurate. Haha .. funny some linkers who have admitted > previously they know little very about security, other than general > paranoia, have claimed doom and gloom as usual. Haha, so what? > I well remember some linkers bemoaning the change from DOS :) Geez, everyone's trolling these days... RC > > Cheers Johann > Stephen Loosley > Victoria Australia > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > From stephen at melbpc.org.au Sun May 8 18:52:24 2005 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley) Date: Sun May 8 18:52:40 2005 Subject: [LINK] Google Web Accelerator In-Reply-To: <427DBBEA.3090404@ozemail.com.au> References: <427A1A47.5080407@melbpc.org.au> <7cb8694d0505052218750b499@mail.gmail.com> <427D9576.2080504@melbpc.org.au> <427DBBEA.3090404@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <427DD348.5020708@melbpc.org.au> rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > Stephen Loosley wrote: > >> Johann Kruse wrote: >> >>>> From http://webaccelerator.google.com/support.html >>> > > Geez, everyone's trolling these days... RC > Yes, Richard .. some issues have indeed become a little heated for some reason for some contributers to Link recently. Oddly enough the same thing has happened on the main Aus Teacher mailing list quite recently. Maybe the Howard - Costello power thingy is another example and even our country is still engaged in a war. Personaly, I'd blame all this communication between people that never used to happen :) Cheers Richard Stephen Loosley us@netheaven.us From stephen at melbpc.org.au Mon May 9 00:52:27 2005 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley) Date: Mon May 9 00:52:45 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: The Update: 8th May 2005 Message-ID: <427E27AB.2050003@melbpc.org.au> People might like to subscribe to The Update .. ------------------------------------------------------------- T H E 2005 U P D A T E AuNz Net and Information Industry Briefs ------------------------------------------------------------- ---- 8th May 2005 ---- THE INTERNET SOCIETY OF AUSTRALIA The Internet is for Everyone! Join at http://www.isoc-au.org.au/ ****** Contents ****** ---HEADLINES ** Confusing Price Advertising Under Scrutiny ** The Week In Brief ** Asia Pacific In Brief ---ONLINE IN AUSTRALIA/NEW ZEALAND ** Broadband Roll-Out To Victorian Schools ** New Sites ---NETWORK & SERVICES ** Net Banking Fees On The Increase? ---CULTURE & COMMUNITIES ** Culture & Community Picks ** The Shortest Arts Calendar ---EDUCATION & HEALTH ONLINE ** IT Skills Tests For Australian School Students ** EdNA's Picks ---BUSINESS & E-COMMERCE ** Trade Agreement Information Online ** This Week In Time ** Diary ---CONTACT/SUBSCRIPTIONS ============================================ * A glossary of computer and Internet related abbreviations and acronyms can be found at * Currency is in Australian dollars unless otherwise specified. * Web page links that overrun lines should be copied and pasted into your Web browser. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ HEADLINES ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ://Confusing Price Advertising Under Scrutiny The misleading practice of component pricing that is especially visible on Internet flight booking sites is to be addressed by legislation after state and Commonwealth Government discussions. Some flight booking websites advertise flights by breaking the total price down into a fare and then state other fees and charges. In some cases a total price is not shown until well into the booking process. In others it is in a smaller font than the fare component. The upshot is that it makes it harder for consumers to compare on price - since different airlines have different fees and charges - which may result in a less efficient marketplace. It seems likely now - after an announcement by the Treasurer - that Commonwealth Government will make an amendment to the Trade Practices Act 1974. Some states have already been prepared to amend their Fair Trading Acts and it is likely there will be consistent legislation. It is expected that the Acts will require advertising for a product or service to include a prominently displayed single-figure price at which the product or service can be obtained. The single-figure price should include all costs that consumers, including business consumers, are required to pay to the trader to obtain the product or service. ://The Week In Brief * Optus launched third-generation (3G) mobile phone services on 27 April. But, for now, they are only available to business and government customers in Canberra with a full network roll-out to come later. Telstra is due to launch 3G services in the coming months. * Adobe Systems has grown its product range with an agreement to buy software maker Macromedia for about US$3.4 billion in shares. ://Asia-Pacific In Brief * An annual survey by Singapore's Department of Statistics found that the nation's IT services industry, including IT consultancy, IT development and hardware maintenance, grew slightly in 2003. Receipts were up 1.1% to S$5.05 billion, although receipts per establishment fell slightly. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ONLINE IN Au/Nz ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ://Broadband Roll-Out To Victorian Schools The Victorian state budget included money for a broadband roll-out to the state's schools. Premier Steve Bracks said every school - that's 1,500 schools - in the state will have access to high-speed fibre-optic broadband. The Bracks Government provided $89 million over four years, with Telstra to add $100 million for the core infrastructure. ** New Sites A joint report from Internet safety agency NetAlert and the Australian Broadcasting Authority (ABA) found that 37% of children aged eight to thirteen years accessed the Internet on a daily basis and a further third accessed it two to three times per week. Almost all parents perceived the Internet to be of benefit to their children. A very large proportion of both parents and children mentioned at least one issue of concern in relation to children's use of the Internet, but while parents were most concerned with content and communication issues, children were most concerned with security. Web: http://www.netalert.net.au/02014-Research.asp ------------------------------------------------------------------------ NETWORK & SERVICES ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ://Net Banking Fees On The Increase? The latest announcement that appears to signify the creep of fees into Internet banking services received a lot of attention last week. The Commonwealth Bank said it would introduce new fees starting 1 July. The Commonwealth Bank said NetBank customers would only get three free payments each month before a 50-cent charge applies. The Australian Consumers' Association accused the banks of luring customers to Internet banking by highlighting the convenience and not charging online fees. The Commonwealth Bank said it had to recoup the costs of building the Internet services and adding more security. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- CULTURE & COMMUNITIES ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** Culture & Community Picks The Archibald Prize is now in its 84th year. John Olsen has won the 2005 Archibald Prize for his painting Self portrait Janus Faced. Web: http://www.thearchibaldprize.com.au/ Find more great culture news & items at Australia's Culture and Recreation Portal, http://www.acn.net.au ** The Shortest Arts Calendar 5-15 May Umbria Jazz Melbourne 05 Melbourne, VIC http://www.ujm05.org/index.php 21-22 May Hampton High Country Food and Arts Festival Hampton, QLD http://www.hamptonfestival.com/index.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------- EDUCATION & HEALTH ONLINE ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ://IT Skills Tests For Australian School Students Australian school students across the nation will be tested on their skills with information technology as part of an assessment process aimed at determining how well students are being prepared to be confident creative and productive users of new technologies. The assessments will be conducted for high school students during Years 6 and 10 beginning this year. ACER, the Australian Council for Educational Research, is managing the survey on behalf of the Ministerial Council for Education, Employment, Training and Youth Affairs (MCEETYA). MCEETYA, a council of state and Commonwealth agencies, approved the national assessment ACER said a detailed report is expected to be produced by May 2006. Web: http://www.acer.edu.au/publications/newsletters/eNews/2005/Mar/Mar05_index.html ** EdNA's Picks ** Recognising achievement in heritage Web site design, a committee of museum professionals selects the Best of the Web each year. Museum Web sites from around the world were nominated in a variety of categories and are judged by an independent panel of judges. The categories are: On-line Exhibition, E-Services, Innovative or Experimental Application, Museum Professional's Site, Research Site, and Educational Use. Web: http://www.archimuse.com/mw2005/best/ Visit EdNA, the comprehensive Australian educational resource network, and What's New for more great sites at http://www.edna.edu.au ------------------------------------------------------------------------ BUSINESS & E-COMMERCE ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ://Trade Agreement Information Online Access to government information on Australia's Free Trade Agreements, including of course the high-impact agreement with the US has been centralised at a new website. Trade Minister Mark Vaile launched fta.gov.au recently. The site acts as a whole-of-government gateway to each of the agreements and information and related services provided by different Commonwealth Government agencies. The website is targeted at businesses only, according to the media release. Web: http://www.fta.gov.au/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- THIS WEEK IN TIME --------------------------------------------------------------------- 3 years ago this week: * Telstra directories subsidiary Pacific Access completed its $20 million purchase of CitySearch Australia from f2, the Internet unit of John Fairfax Holdings Ltd. * National ICT Australia (NICTA), a consortium that includes universities and the private sector as well as support from the NSW and ACT governments, won the right to establish the federal government-supported Information and Communications Technology (ICT) Centre of Excellence. 4 years ago this week: * The New Zealand government was very upset about an Economic Intelligence Unit report that ranked the US first, Australia second ... and New Zealand twentieth out of sixty countries in terms of "e-readiness." 6 years ago this week: * Internet industry and user groups announced plans to hold nationwide marches to protest the government's planned regulations to block online content.... and Melbourne-based ISP Eisa launched the nation's first free Internet service. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DIARY ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Conferences and Seminars: 10-11 May; VoIP and IP Comms Summit 2005; Sydney Convention & Exhibition Centre, Sydney, NSW; Association & Communications Events, http://www.acevents.com.au 11-12 May; ATUG'S Third Annual Regional Conference; Canberra, ACT; ATUG, Beth Mackenzie, 02 9927 9978, beth.mackenzie@atug.org.au. 17 May; The Future of Broadband What's Next?" (ATUG/Alcatel breakfast); Hyatt Regency Perth, 99 Adelaide Terrace, Perth, WA; http://www.atug.com.au/alcatel05breakfast.cfm 17-18 May 2005, Indigenous Telecommunications Forum 2005; Alice Springs, NT; http://www.telinfo.gov.au/Indigenous_Forum.htm 19 May; The Future of Broadband What's Next?" (ATUG/Alcatel breakfast); Hyatt Regency Adelaide, North Terrace, Adelaide, SA; http://www.atug.com.au/alcatel05breakfast.cfm 23 June; Teaching & Technology: mLearning 2005; Wollongong, NSW; http://www.mtraining.com.au/conference.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --CONTACT--- Contact The Editor Produced by KildaNet Productions (03) 9593 9929 (eves) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE to/from this newsletter send reply to this e-mail without quoting the entire newsletter with the words "Unsubscribe Update" or "Subscribe Update" in the subject line to "Adam Creed" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This newsletter is copyright 1995-2005. Permission is given to reproduce electronically, but please acknowledge the source and do not post on the Web, e.g. "from The Update." The information contained herein has been obtained from sources believed to be reliable. Privacy statement: your e-mail address will not be used for any purpose apart from sending you this publication. The opinions expressed within this newsletter are the personal opinions of the editor or contributors. -- Cheers all .. Stephen Loosley stephen@melbpc.org.au From anthony.hornby at cdu.edu.au Mon May 9 01:36:51 2005 From: anthony.hornby at cdu.edu.au (anthony hornby) Date: Mon May 9 01:36:56 2005 Subject: [LINK] (US) Court yanks down FCC's broadcast flag Message-ID: <1115566611.19497.9.camel@dionysis.hornby.homedns.org> "Court yanks down FCC's broadcast flag Published: May 6, 2005, 9:52 AM PDT By Declan McCullagh Staff Writer, CNET News.com In a stunning victory for hardware makers and television buffs, a federal appeals court has tossed out government rules that would have outlawed many digital TV receivers and tuner cards starting July 1. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit ruled Friday that the Federal Communications Commission did not have the authority to prohibit the manufacture of computer and video hardware that doesn't have copy protection technology known as the "broadcast flag." The regulations, which the FCC created in November 2003, had been intended to limit unauthorized Internet redistribution of over-the-air TV broadcasts." Read more:http://news.com.com/Court+yanks+down+FCCs+broadcast +flag/2100-1030_3-5697719.html?tag=nefd.top Yay the good guys !! Pretty funny when you look at it ... squash a ton of civil rights via devices such as the patriot act and get barely a whimper of protest from the US public, but NOBODY is tampering with the way they copy TV :-) Anyway good to see the (US) law come down on the side of common sense. Anthony. -- anthony hornby Charles Darwin University From lannet at lannet.com.au Mon May 9 03:24:42 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Mon May 9 03:25:30 2005 Subject: [LINK] Google Web Accelerator In-Reply-To: <427DBBEA.3090404@ozemail.com.au> References: <427A1A47.5080407@melbpc.org.au> <7cb8694d0505052218750b499@mail.gmail.com> <427D9576.2080504@melbpc.org.au> <427DBBEA.3090404@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <427E4B5A.0@lannet.com.au> Whilst we're trolling, and bemoaning the change from DOS, Stephen's right - I do bemoan the switch from DOS to Windows. DOS worked for what it was supposed to do - Windows didn't. DOS had a CLI - in Windows they gave you a restrictive GUI. Why do you think I like Linux...? rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > Stephen Loosley wrote: > >> Johann Kruse wrote: >> >>>> From http://webaccelerator.google.com/support.html >>> >>> >>> >>> " Also note that during the first part of our beta testing period, >>> users outside of North America and Europe may not see much >>> improvement in their web page loading speed. " >>> >>> No doubt that's to do with the physical location of their proxies/ >>> servers, but hopefully they'll put some in Australia some day? :) >>> >>> Johann >> >> >> >> Yes Johann, although two days after installing this little gem from >> Google, it is now saying it's saved 51 minutes for Mozilla and one >> hour for IE. Over about 10 hours browsing, I have noticed this to >> be fairly accurate. Haha .. funny some linkers who have admitted >> previously they know little very about security, other than general >> paranoia, have claimed doom and gloom as usual. Haha, so what? >> I well remember some linkers bemoaning the change from DOS :) > > > Geez, everyone's trolling these days... > > RC > >> >> Cheers Johann >> Stephen Loosley >> Victoria Australia >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Link mailing list >> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link >> > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au Fri May 6 16:35:29 2005 From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington) Date: Mon May 9 08:06:27 2005 Subject: [LINK] Google Web Accelerator In-Reply-To: <427A226A.40300@firstpr.com.au> References: <427A1A47.5080407@melbpc.org.au> <427A226A.40300@firstpr.com.au> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050506163040.01d560d0@fastmail.fm> At 11:40 PM 5/5/2005, Robin Whittle wrote: > > In order to speed up delivery of content, Google Web Accelerator may > > retrieve webpage content that you did not request ... > >Hmmm - say it decides to send you some file which violates local laws ... There is an option for turning off the prefetch, so it will not load things you haven't yet asked for: . As with many of its other products, Google isn't doing much new with the accelerator, just doing it free and with a bit of hype. Given that web browsers and ISPs already have caches built in and many links have compression, I wonder how much difference Google will make. Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 http://www.tomw.net.au PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 Visiting Fellow, Computer Science, Australian National University From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Mon May 9 15:33:32 2005 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Mon May 9 15:43:48 2005 Subject: [LINK] Copyright Issues Paper on Fair Use Message-ID: Copyright Society of Australia ====================================================================== The Government (on 5 May 2005) released an issues paper on fair use. The issues paper seeks submissions about whether the Australian Copyright Act should be amended to include an exception to infringement similar to the fair use exception in US law. Click here for a link to the issues paper: http://www.copyright.org.au/U25871 The Copyright Society of Australia will be hosting a function on fair use in Sydney in early June 2005. -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd, 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in the Baker Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre, UNSW Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program, University of Hong Kong Visiting Fellow in Computer Science, Australian National University From lannet at lannet.com.au Mon May 9 16:01:24 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Mon May 9 16:01:32 2005 Subject: [LINK] Copyright Issues Paper on Fair Use In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <427EFCB4.7000200@lannet.com.au> We've got to have something good come out of the AUSFTA :) Roger Clarke wrote: > > Copyright Society of Australia > ====================================================================== > > The Government (on 5 May 2005) released an issues paper on fair use. The > issues paper seeks submissions about whether the Australian Copyright Act > should be amended to include an exception to infringement similar to the > fair use exception in US law. > > Click here for a link to the issues paper: > > http://www.copyright.org.au/U25871 > > The Copyright Society of Australia will be hosting a function on fair > use in Sydney in early June 2005. > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From cyoo at squiz.net Tue May 10 10:53:31 2005 From: cyoo at squiz.net (Chris Yoo) Date: Tue May 10 10:53:39 2005 Subject: [LINK] eCommerce Works: Virtual Acorns, Real Money In-Reply-To: <427D43F3.6010706@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <20050510005332.118111AB15@intranet.squiz.net> Ridiculous perhaps... Yet for a monocultural country where individualism is, if not frowned upon, a rarity, I think it provides a great outlet to be yourself. I recently spent a year working in Korea and have my own 'cyworld' page. Can become rather addictive actually. > -----Original Message----- > From: link-bounces@anumail0.anu.edu.au > [mailto:link-bounces@anumail0.anu.edu.au] On Behalf Of Howard Lowndes > Sent: Sunday, 8 May 2005 8:41 AM > To: Roger Clarke > Cc: link@anu.edu.au > Subject: Re: [LINK] eCommerce Works: Virtual Acorns, Real Money > > How ridiculous; sad really. It makes you realise just how > important it is to "get a life". > > Roger Clarke wrote: > > > > Koreans cybertrip to a tailor-made world The Sydney Morning Herald > > Date: May 7 2005 > > By Deborah Cameron in Tokyo > > http://www.smh.com.au/text/articles/2005/05/06/1115092690884.html > > > > Cyworld is like a new planet. On it everyone has a private > room and a > > circle of friends who bring gifts. There is an > inexhaustible range of > > home decoration possibilities and cool music. > > > > In South Korea, Cyworld is both a giant in the galaxy of cyberspace > > and a community website. > > > > It has 13 million residents and visitors, more than a > quarter of the > > country's population. With it has come its own currency, slang and > > social pressure. > > > > In Cyworld an address is a "minihompy", which is short for > > mini-homepage or, between friends, simply a "hompy". A > person with a > > homepage is called a "mini-me". > > > > New Cyworld citizens get a featureless empty room as part of their > > homepage package. The challenge is to decorate it and then > construct a > > personality for mini-me. > > > > For Cyworld's owners, one of Seoul's most successful internet > > companies, the site makes 200 million won ($258,000) a day, > according > > to the Samsung Economic Research Institute. > > > > Money pours in when the Cyworld population goes on a decorating, > > gift-buying or music downloading spree. The more attractive and > > interesting the room, the more visitors it gets, and in Cyworld > > popularity equates to fame and success. The site even measures > > "sexiness" and "friendliness", which it gauges by the > number of gifts > > a person gives or receives. > > > > "Most of my friends had entered Cyworld before me and their > mini-rooms > > showed just that," recounted Jennifer Park, a reporter for Seoul's > > OhMyNews. > > > > "They had tonnes of digital items such as fancy wallpapers, > furniture, > > pets and more. Their number of visitors exceeded mine by far, > > triggering my ambition and jealousy." > > > > Ms Park says she spent so much time in Cyworld trying to build her > > popularity that she diagnosed herself a "cyholic" and quit. Almost > > every South Korean in their 20s has been a subscriber to the site, > > according to the president of SK Communications, Mr Yoo > Hyun-oh, who owns it. > > > > The way people live in South Korea has probably contributed to the > > phenomenal success of Cyworld. Identical and economical but > unlovely > > blocks of flats that rise by the hectare in commuter suburbs have > > created the perfect environment: a craving for escapism, > and a dense > > and easily wired landscape for broadband companies. > > > > Today South Korea is the world's most internet-connected > country. At > > the end of 2003, more than 11 million households - > three-quarters of > > all homes - had broadband access which, according to cable > companies, > > was saturation point. Cyworld started in 2001 but remained > small until > > 2003, when its popularity exploded. > > > > The Cyworld currency is "dotori", Korean for acorn. An > acorn costs 100 > > won (about 12 cents), which might sound like peanuts but it > mounts up. > > > > Something small from the online shop might cost three > acorns, but the > > average purchase costs 10 acorns and something elaborate > might set the > > buyer back 20 acorns. The "rent" for some items has to be paid each > > month or they disappear. > > > > The acorns are sold at bookstores, milk bars and > newsagents, or they > > can be bought by bank transfer, credit card or through a > direct debit > > on a phone bill. > > > > Acorn gift vouchers were an instant hit when they came on > the market > > in March - a staff recruitment agency found that after hard cash, > > acorns were the second preference as this year's New Year bonus. > > > > The Samsung Economic Research Institute, which has been tracking > > developments in Cyworld, was told by a 28-year-old graphic > designer, > > who spent 10,000 won a month on acorns, that the gift > vouchers were a > > great idea because when it comes to acorns "you can never > have enough". > > > > -- > Howard. > LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people > -- > When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; > When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. > -- > Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the > Australian states. > From glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au Tue May 10 13:05:39 2005 From: glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au (Glen Turner) Date: Tue May 10 13:05:59 2005 Subject: [LINK] Copyright Issues Paper on Fair Use In-Reply-To: <427EFCB4.7000200@lannet.com.au> References: <427EFCB4.7000200@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <42802503.7070406@aarnet.edu.au> Howard Lowndes wrote: > We've got to have something good come out of the AUSFTA :) This isn't related to the FTA, but to the review of the Copyright Act which was taking place before the FTA was finalised. The FTA trumped a lot of the work of the review (mainly with a worse result than the review was suggesting). This is one of the few areas where the work of the review can continue. -- Glen Turner Tel: (08) 8303 3936 or +61 8 8303 3936 Australia's Academic & Research Network www.aarnet.edu.au From stephen at melbpc.org.au Tue May 10 21:00:55 2005 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley) Date: Tue May 10 21:01:09 2005 Subject: [LINK] Mozilla Browser: Critical Security Issues Message-ID: <42809467.6040305@melbpc.org.au> ** Mozilla Firefox Browser Security ** : Exploits aim for Firefox holes Staff writers MAY 10, 2005 TWO critical and unpatched vulnerabilities in the open-source Firefox web browser have quickly attracted code designed to exploit the flaws. Combined, the flaws could allow an attacker to run malicious code on a machine using the browser, Firefox parent the Mozilla Foundation said in a security notice posted on its website. Internet security firm Secunia rated the problems as "extremely critical", saying that code to exploit the flaws had been made publicly available. Mozilla has yet to issue any patches for the problem, but said it had made changes to its update service to diminish the risk of a successful exploit. In the absence of a permanent fix, Mozilla has recommended a number of work-around measures, including disabling Java script functionality and the "Allow web sites to install software" option. Both features are found in the "Web Features" area of Firefox's options menu. "Users who have added other extensions or theme sites to the software installation whitelist should remove them until a fixed version of Firefox is available," the Mozilla advisory says. The flaws affect versions of the browser designed for different operating systems, including Windows, Mac OS and Linux. -- Regards .. Stephen Loosley stephen@melbpc.org.au From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au Tue May 10 21:19:24 2005 From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington) Date: Tue May 10 22:33:17 2005 Subject: [LINK] IT matters of interest in the 2005/2006 Federal Budget Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050510202029.01d3c3e0@tomw.net.au> Each year since the Australian Federal Budget was first put on the web I have done a quick search though the documents to find matters of interest in information technology. QUALITY OF THE WEB PAGE Each past year the budget web site has got better. The 2005-6 site is good with less ministerial photos and puff than last year but flawed by an accessibility problem. I couldn't look at the PDF documents as they were each going to take more than half an hour to download. This is a serious problem as not all the information in the web pages is accessible to the disabled, with important tables in the overview in blurry little image files . This looks like something added at the last minute, as elsewhere considerable care has been taken with the tables, such as in "Welfare to Work" . To add insult to injury, the help file suggests those who can't read the tables contact the treasury . Whoever who wrote that should know it is unlawful to discriminate against the disabled in this way and the "you can contact us" defence has been tried in the past and failed. I ran the budget page though Watchfire's WebXACT web checking service and it came out reasonably well. The page is small (only 12.78 kB) and so will download quickly. As with last year page passed automated priority 1 accessibility tests and failed level 2 and level 3. This would be a reasonable result if the overview tables were fixed. IT IN THE BUDGET Introduced in 2003, the budget web site has a useful search service, but it seems a little less useful this year than last. Entering "Information Technology" returned 38 results (up from 38 last year). But almost all these references appear to be in the name of the Department of . In attempting to eliminate those references I got a "Form validator error '8003ffff' Search string is invalid" message from the search engine . Some items of interest from the search: Welfare to Work >Department of Employment and Workplace Relations ? improved information >technology to support participation ... 59.2 Prime Minister and Cabinet >Office of the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security ? upgrading >of information technology and communications infrastructure ... > >The Government provided additional capital of $0.2 million in 2004-05 to >the Office of the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security for the >upgrade of its information and communications infrastructure. Doesn't sound like enough. Veterans? Affairs >The Government will provide $7.1 million in capital funding over four >years to implement an integrated and client-focussed information >technology application framework, known as C?ram ... also provide related >funding of $3.2 million for development, support and maintenance of C?ram >and associated applications. C?ram? ps: IT In Previous Budgets: * 2004-05 * 2003-04 * 2002-03 * 2000-01 * 1999-00: * 1997-98 * 1996-97: Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 http://www.tomw.net.au PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 Visiting Fellow, Computer Science, Australian National University From bpa at iss.net.au Wed May 11 00:40:20 2005 From: bpa at iss.net.au (Brenda - lists) Date: Wed May 11 00:40:25 2005 Subject: [LINK] IT matters of interest in the 2005/2006 Federal Budget In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050510202029.01d3c3e0@tomw.net.au> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050510202029.01d3c3e0@tomw.net.au> Message-ID: <4280C7D4.7050603@iss.net.au> Tom Worthington wrote: > > Veterans? Affairs > > >> The Government will provide $7.1 million in capital funding over four >> years to implement an integrated and client-focussed information >> technology application framework, known as C?ram ... also provide >> related funding of $3.2 million for development, support and >> maintenance of C?ram and associated applications. > > > C?ram? > > perhaps http://www.curamsoftware.com/ tom cheers brenda From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Wed May 11 08:37:46 2005 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Wed May 11 08:38:04 2005 Subject: [LINK] Google Web Accelerator Message-ID: >Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:53:39 -0400 >From: Declan McCullagh >To: politech@politechbot.com > >Previous Politech message: >http://www.politechbot.com/2005/04/25/be-wary-of/ > > >-------- Original Message -------- >Subject: RE: [Politech] Privacy tip: be wary of Google's "personal >history" feature [priv] >Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:33:57 -0400 >From: Peter Swire >To: 'Declan McCullagh' > >Declan: > > The Google "personal history" is basically one more example of >stored records that never used to exist. > > In family law and civil suits, relevant stored records are highly >likely to be included in discovery unless the judge is convinced that the >burden (on privacy or the cost of producing the evidence) outweighs the >benefit of accurate evidence. So far in the U.S., discovery tends to win. > > As for DOJ, they love stored records. The standards under the >Stored Communication Act are much lower than the standards for a wiretap. >What about when stored telephone calls start to happen much more often, as >is likely with VOIP? > > That was the subject of a House Judiciary hearing last Thursday, >where the so-called "stored voice mail" provision in the Patriot Act, >Section 209, turns out to apply to all stored telephone calls. The >Committee was surprised to learn how easily the stored phone calls can be >seized. > > NPR All Things Considered story on stored telephone calls: >http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4612408 > > Testimony explaining Section 209: >http://www.peterswire.net/swire.house.judiciary.testimony.042105.doc > > Audio recording of the entire April 21 hearing is available from the >front page of the Center for Democracy & Technology website, www.cdt.org. > > Peter > > >Prof. Peter P. Swire >Moritz College of Law of > The Ohio State University >John Glenn Scholar in Public Policy Research >Consultant, Morrison & Foerster, LLP >(240) 994-4142, www.peterswire.net > >_______________________________________________ >Politech mailing list >Archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ >Moderated by Declan McCullagh (http://www.mccullagh.org/) > -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd, 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in the Baker Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre, UNSW Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program, University of Hong Kong Visiting Fellow in Computer Science, Australian National University From brd at iimetro.com.au Wed May 11 08:57:26 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Wed May 11 08:57:48 2005 Subject: [LINK] History will vanish into the ether Message-ID: <42813C56.2AE523B7@iimetro.com.au> History will vanish into the ether Toss Gascoigne MAY 11, 2005 The Australian http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,15241232%5E15309%5E%5Enbv%5E,00.html TRACKING down government reports is a growing problem for researchers in Australia. Originally published on the web, many reports have become unavailable or difficult to find. Government departments are increasingly using the web as their primary means of publication. It's quicker and easier and gives much better access in our wired world. And they save money by printing fewer hard copies. But problems arise when reports are removed from the web or relocated to a new website. This may be as time moves on and webmasters, under pressure to run a tidy site, decide to cut some of the older material. Or it may be when departments merge or split, and the material is moved to a new address but without leaving a trace behind so it can be tracked. There are no national protocols for how web-based material should be selected and preserved and made available in a systematic way in Australia today. This is a cause of concern to researchers. Just how significant is the issue? To find out, I asked this of subscribers to the newsletter of the Council for Humanities, Arts and Social Sciences: "The Australian Library and Information Services seminar, Digital Amnesia, will address issues relating to the access and management of government publications online. The context is a concern that a number of significant publications have disappeared from a range of government websites. "Have you had experience of this? If so, could you provide details?" It was quickly apparent I had touched a nerve. Within two days I had received more than 100 responses. Respondents gave examples of reports that had disappeared; described their battles to track down material as departments were amalgamated or split; talked about the issues caused as new technologies replaced the old, and proposed possible solutions. Just over half said they had not encountered problems. Material that had been available on the web but has now disappeared included: -> The AGPS Style Manual, available in full on the web a few years ago -> Ministerial releases issued before 2004 have been recently removed from the Northern Territory Government website -> The National Plan for Women in Agriculture and Resource Management which came out in the mid 1990s. It was endorsed by state governments and about 130 rural industry organisations, and formed the basis for policy and action for a number of years. Typical of the stories was: "I teach a course on Youth and Society. One of the essay topics is Youth Allowance. There was a major evaluation of the program online at the beginning of the semester and I included the website reference for students. Come week 6 when they are doing the essay the link has disappeared. There is simply a generic message saying the page cannot be found." One librarian had asked her colleagues to nominate reports they could not find. She then set out on a determined hunt to see if they were really missing. She found them, but concluded that: "All of the publications were still available somewhere, but that was often due to good luck, and not the good management of the government agencies that created them. "Five of the seven titles had disappeared from the website of the creating agency, with no redirects or other assistance given to the would-be reader about how to find the new location." The crucial point for her was that, while they remained available somehow, somewhere, their discoverability was almost impossible. All of the titles in this small study were reported missing by librarians, all sophisticated users of the internet. "My impression from this small study is that to this point, we have not yet suffered a serious loss of government information. I have not yet been able to identify any significant government publication that has disappeared altogether. However, there are certainly significant government publications that have disappeared from the creating agency's websites. Government information is definitely dispersed, some of it is very hard to find, and the fact that some of it remains at all is thanks to the whim of the internet archive harvesting robot, rather than to any policy, strategy or plan of commonwealth agencies." Why was this material moved from the websites? Sometimes it was because IT managers wanted to keep the websites manageable and streamlined, and moved old material off as pressures mounted. Old bookmarks become useless when websites are redesigned. And significant documents are sometimes not seen as significant at the time. It's only in hindsight that we realise they have important historical value. The loss of old material seems to occur most often where a website has gone through an upgrade, change of staff or change of management, or when a significant project and its attendant publications have come to an end. Usually older publications are relocated as the structure or focus of the website changes, to make way for new versions or new publications - they are finally removed when they no longer attract much traffic or seem out of place. One person said that he never expects to find reports more than a couple of years old on a government website: "I presume that a range of issues are involved, including changes of government, changes of bureaucrats at the top and a desire to take a different policy direction from the one mentioned in thereport." All these issues were compounded by the march of technology: new software means old reports can become hard to read even if they are available. Respondents were united in their call for the development of a protocol, funded and implemented across government. Some thought the answer lay in an expansion of the PANDORA archival system run by the National Library ofAustralia. One correspondent from New Zealand pointed to new legislation passed there earlier this month. Perhaps the answer to the issue in Australia lies in the adoption of legislation with a similar intent to New Zealand's Public Records Bill: "The bill establishes a framework under which public records can be managed; ensures that the record keeping requirements of the Bill extend to as broad a range of government activities as practicable; and provides for the preservation and accessibility of public archives. In order to achieve these objectives, it provides a legal framework under which public records are created, stored, preserved, disposed of and made accessible. "The growth in email and the internet has created a new set of challenges, which the bill addresses by requiring agencies to create and maintain records and to make them available over time. Agencies will also need to seek the approval of the chief archivist before they destroy records." Toss Gascoigne is executive director of the Council for the Humanities, Arts and Social Sciences. This is an edited version of his address to the seminar Digital Amnesia: The Challenges of Government Online organised by the Australian Library and Information Association at the National Library of Australia on April 21. -- The law of unintended consequences pushes us ceaselessly through the years, permitting no pause for perspective -- Richard Schickel Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From brd at iimetro.com.au Wed May 11 09:16:20 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Wed May 11 09:16:32 2005 Subject: [LINK] [UK] Election '05: Would e-voting have changed the outcome? Message-ID: <428140C4.BB343420@iimetro.com.au> Election '05: Would e-voting have changed the outcome? May 09 2005 by Will Sturgeon Silicon.com http://management.silicon.com/government/0,39024677,39130235,00.htm Or would it have led to more questions about fraud? As the post-mortem begins on the General Election, one of the biggest questions being asked is whether a change in voting methods could have changed the outcome. On the one hand are questions about the benefit of e-voting in combating apathy and persistent low turnout, which this year averaged 62 per cent nationally. On the other hand are continuing questions over the ease with which election fraud could be committed. Some say e-voting will increase that risk while others say fraud is so endemic currently there is nothing to lose. On the question of apathy it is clear that even minor changes in the turnout could have made for a very different outcome. Take for example four closely fought constituencies. In Sittingbourne and Sheppey where the turnout was a paltry 53.7 per cent, Labour candidate Derek Wyatt won by just 79 votes - or 0.2 per cent of the votes cast. In Croydon Central where turnout was 60.6 per cent, Conservative candidate Andrew Pelling won by just 75 votes - or 0.2 per cent of votes cast. In Harlow where the turnout was 62.6 per cent, Labour candidate Bill Rammell won by just 97 votes - or 0.2 per cent of the votes cast. In Battersea where turnout was 59 per cent, Labour candidate Martin Linton won by just 163 votes - or 0.4 per cent of votes cast. And these aren't the only instances where minor changes in turnout could have, potentially, changed the result. Such fine margins between winning and losing really are the difference between a few floating voters or a few who just couldn't be bothered to walk to the polling station. It's believed the use of e-voting technologies, whether via secure internet sites or even SMS text messages, will provide a significant hike in turnout. In many constituencies this time around it could well have been the difference between winning and losing. In Cardiff West, the most connected constituency in the UK in terms of voters with home broadband internet access, turnout was just 57 per cent. This may have been due in part to it being a very safe Labour seat but with so many apathetic voters already online there is real scope to increase the turnout nationwide. Tory and Liberal Democrat supporters may not have thought it worth walking to the polling station or even to the post box but they may have been prepared to log on from home. Recent research from Detica suggests the use of new technologies would certainly increase turnout at elections. A quarter of voters (25 per cent) said they would be more likely to vote if they could do so by SMS. And almost a third said they would be more likely to vote if they could do so by email (30 per cent) or via a secure voting website (32 per cent). And even where the influence of e-voting is not enough to sway the result - remember there will be areas where supporters of all parties would vote online in roughly equal numbers - as an electorate we owe it to ourselves to ensure the government is genuinely representative of the nation's beliefs and opinions. For this to be the case we need turnout to be as close to 100 per cent as possible. But looking at the worst case scenario, what if turnout is ever more than 100 per cent? Or to put it another way: how big is the threat of fraud and how much confidence can we have in electronic systems? The current system is certainly flawed and open to clear abuses. That's beyond doubt. Members of the silicon.com team who showed up at polling stations without polling cards were not asked to show ID - they were simply presented with a list of names at their given address, and allowed to pick one. Armed with nothing more than the ability to read house numbers, it is possible to vote as anybody, and importantly to vote more than once. A little bin-raiding, in order to get the names of occupants, may also help. However, such incidents of fraud are still conducted one-by-one, the concern as ever with technology is that it provides the opportunity to commit such frauds on a grander scale. David Porter, head of security and risk at Detica, told silicon.com: "There are certainly problems with the current ballot box system but I don't think it could ever be enough to swing the result of an election. Similarly with postal voting, where fraudsters can either apply for your vote or intercept and manipulate it, while fraud poses more of a threat it would still have to be a very large co-ordinated effort to actually sway the result. "What worries me more is the next step up - to electronic voting. Like in other realms of life, such as shopping or banking, when things go electronic the fraudsters jump on board and can do things quicker and in greater numbers." While Porter said a secure system of e-voting with controls in place and monitoring and detection techniques applied to unusual voting patterns could one day be worth considering as a trade-off in favour of higher turnouts, he warned against the trivialising of a General Election. "One benefit with the current system is that people have to actually get off their arses and vote," he said, adding that such a process of walking to the polling station buys thinking time. We should be wary of technological advances that might enable people to make rash decisions or vote on a whim, he said. Richard Allan, former Liberal Democrat MP for Sheffield Hallam and a former member of the All Party Internet Group, told silicon.com any unsupervised voting throws up concerns and said he'd be against moves in that direction, even though the Lib Dems perhaps stand to gain more than any other party, in his opinion, due to the demographic and typical profile of floating Lib Dem voters. Allan told silicon.com: "There is no doubt that many people would find it more convenient to vote from home using their computers but the price we would pay for that convenience in terms of loss of confidence in the results is too great - unless and until the fraud issue can be comprehensively resolved." "With the recent prosecutions for fraud in the postal voting system, concerns about this issue are growing not diminishing, making any widespread introduction of remote e-voting very unlikely," he said. -- Every election is a sort of advance auction sale of stolen goods --H. L. Mencken Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From brd at iimetro.com.au Wed May 11 09:19:28 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Wed May 11 09:19:43 2005 Subject: [LINK] Leader: E-government worsening digital divide? [UK viewpoint] Message-ID: <42814180.8958E53A@iimetro.com.au> Leader: E-government worsening digital divide? May 09 2005 by silicon.com http://management.silicon.com/government/0,39024677,39130236,00.htm It can't be about only saving money... Will putting more government services online actually worsen the digital divide? This is the implication of research into the impact of online school admissions systems, which warns there's a risk that only the parents who are already comfortable with the internet are likely to use them. Add to this separate research which suggests that parents lacking internet skills can damage their children's education and job prospects - and you can see a grim future developing for a large chunk of the population. The last thing we need is a two-tier society where those with digital know-how can grab all the best services while the less well-informed - and their kids - miss out. There's a broader lesson here for the government as it pushes ahead with getting services online. While the number of online households continues to grow, there will always be a sizeable minority that will not embrace the internet. And many of them are precisely the people that need to interact with the government - the poor and the elderly. This is why electronic services are only one piece of the jigsaw - and should complement, not replace, existing channels. Electronic services have the potential to create new channels of communication with the public - and cut out lots of unnecessary costs by consolidating back-end systems and lowering transaction costs. But not all costs are unnecessary. And online cannot be the only access method. E-government should free up funds which should be reinvested in better attempts to reach those people the internet cannot. More effort could be put into providing training or low-cost PCs for people who are missing out on the internet experience, for instance, and thus narrow the digital divide. And e-government should not be used as an excuse to cut back on other forms of service delivery. After all, just because state pensions are now delivered to bank accounts doesn't mean we can do without the little village sub-post office which might give some elderly people one of their few contacts with the outside world. Used well technology can help with social inclusion - but used thoughtlessly it has the power to make things worse. -- Progress's biggest failure has been its inability to nurture and protect right relationships....progress builds by using the tools of economics, education, and technology. But what are the tools of the relational life? Are they not the social my relationship to others), the emotional (my relationship to myself), and the spiritual (my relationship to God)? None of the tools of progress has helped build the relational foundation our society requires. -- Richard Swenson Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From brd at iimetro.com.au Wed May 11 09:48:41 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Wed May 11 09:49:00 2005 Subject: [LINK] Budget 2005 - winners and losers Message-ID: <42814859.DF829FE0@iimetro.com.au> Budget 2005 - winners and losers Julian Bajkowski Computerworld 11/05/2005 08:28:17 http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php?id=918866272&eid=-255 In what is likely to be his last Budget between the Prime Minister's office or the back bench, Treasurer Peter Costello has bet the farm on a series of across-the-board tax cuts, backed by an ambitious series of welfare reforms where big picture IT simply does not figure - at least not for this year. IT Minister Helen Coonan's portfolio is marginally poorer, while security agencies including the Department of Immigration and Attorney have walked away with significant funding boosts for biometrics, identity management and data-drilling. Meanwhile, the much-vaunted prospect of the new Department of Human Services becoming a super-department to rule Australia's two largest transactional shops, Centrelink (welfare benefits) and the Health Insurance Commission (Medicare and the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme) has been put on hold for another year - along with the prospect of a unified Human Services smartcard to interoperate between the agencies. While Human Services collected some $1.4 billion in appropriations, these are almost entirely derived from moving funding from its agencies into the department's coffers: a sure sign the government expects any integration costs to be met from savings from within the agencies. In a move that smacks of a last-minute budgetary sacrifice, Human Services did not even issue its own ministerial media pack on its intended future. Rather, the task of integrating Australia's two largest government IT shops will take at least another year to scope and be paid for solely by savings rather than any new funding. Similarly, Costello's ambitious welfare reform program is also likely to have prompted caution for any IT consolidation at a time when the government can least afford to experiment with the performance of its bedded down cheque-cutting hardware. But as with any budget, there are always winners and losers. Loser: Super of the Future Fund eats Telstra whole Treasurer Peter Costello's tenth Federal Budget has locked in the government's vision of the future as one where IT costs continue to fall for the duration of the current term, with the entire proceeds of Telstra's sale now being unequivocally sunk into paying out unfunded commonwealth superannuation liability. After returning a massive $21 billion worth of personal income tax cuts, Costello has also pledged to sink the entire projected $36 billion dollars to be raised from the sale of Telstra into a new untouchable "future fund". The fund is designed to partially deflate the ballooning spectre of the government's own unfunded superannuation liability, accumulated by successive regimes after they repeatedly pushed its superannuation bills under the rug. Treasury does not have an exact figure for the bill, but it is rapidly approaching hundreds of billions of dollars as Australia's workforce ages and retires. Telstra proceeds will now be invested in a "locked away" investment fund intended to appreciate to pay off government liabilities. "The object [of the Telstra sale] will be to have the full proceeds go into the future fund. If you sell off Telstra, and you spend the money, you have no asset and you have sold the family silver," Costello explained. He added the future fund will prevented from being used "to be directly engaged in projects" such as funding infrastructure. Loser: Coonan and IT research left empty-handed Having been charged with selling-off Telstra and placating National Party senators with itchy feet, Senator Helen Coonan's portfolio, Department of Communications IT and the Arts (DCITA) could have been forgiven for expecting a few crumbs from this year's budget. However, Coonan has walked away almost completely empty-handed, if not slightly cut on the ICT front. While no major cuts stand out or have been highlighted in DCITA budget statements, there is no new money, with a $50 million for Metropolitan Broadband Blackspots Program being funded out of last year's Budget. Meanwhile, DCITA policy outputs in the form of research and development projects, administered by the Department of Employment Science and Training, have taken visible hits: BITS (Building information Technology Strengths) Incubator program takes $2 million dollar haircut from $12.6 million to $10.6 million this year while BITS Advanced Networks funding reduces from $8 million to $7 million for the same period. Other funding decreases included the Information Technology Online (ITOL) scheme down $1.1 million from $3 million last year. The good news is orchestras get a marginal funding increase. Winner: Biometrics bandwagon reaps $182 million If last year's budget went all out to bolster the IT budgets of Australia's security and intelligence agencies, this year's funding has gone hell for leather on biometrics, backed by a massive commitment to data-drilling that will leave no government mainframe or database unturned. Major biometrics projects such as the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade's (DFAT) biometric ePassport rollout and Customs' troubled facial recognition border clearance system SmartGate will progress full steam ahead. The full-scale rollout of biometric passports has received $67.53 million over four years, while the less scalable SmartGate facial recognition kiosks get $74 .6 million to enable Customs to "automate border processing using ePassports" through the gradual phasing-in of "self-processing" and "automated processing" at major airports. Meanwhile, the Department of Immigration Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs (DIMIA) will get $42.87 million to implement "biometric technology for border security and identity verification". However, the funding increases do not specify what systems DIMIA will spend the money on, suggesting the department is in for a substantial IT and processing systems overhaul. The Office of the Privacy Commissioner will also receive a modest $740,000 over four years to "conduct privacy audits and to assist the three agencies in addressing privacy issues" that arise from their biometrics. This puts this Budget's total spend on biometrics at $182 million - an almost identical figure for the cost of Customs' massive Integrated Cargo System after it went into cash-burn. Winner: Identity management crisis gets $5.9 million development framework Clearly spooked by the fact DIMIA can incarcerate and deport Australian citizens through a lack of identity verification, the Attorney General's Department has stepped in with $5.9 million over two years to develop "a national identity security framework that is strong, consistent and interoperable". Insiders say the scheme aims to kill DIMIA incompetence and ID fraud with the same stone. Two pilot projects launched with DIMIA and DFAT to create a dedicated and secure "online document verification service to check key documents" to be presented for identification purposes to DIMIA and DFAT. Attorney general Phillip Ruddock has given assurances the new service will not create a master database, and will issue only a "simple yes or no answer" to document authenticity enquiries and "will not issue an identifying number nor store personal details on a database". Rather, the money will be spent on middleware. Even so, the scope of the pilot project is breathtaking with the Tax Office, DIMIA, DFAT, Privacy Commissioner, Centrelink, Austroads (a new federal body to coordinate state roads and traffic authorities), the Health Insurance Commission, Australian Electoral Commission and all state Registries of Births, Deaths and Marriages all roped into the new project. Meanwhile, a second project will test the integrity 25,000 Tax Office-held identities against data held by all of the above agencies "to identify false identities" and "identify key data matching elements that can be used to improve the accuracy of information held on a government database[s]". Similarly, 50,000 passport holders' details will also be crosschecked by DFAT The pilots will also be backed by a $12 million fund for DIMIA for document examiners and document detection equipment. Winner: $43.9 million for Immigration MAL wares Not content with jumping on the biometrics bandwagon, DIMIA has also managed to extract almost $44 million "for enhancements to the Movement Alert List", better known as MAL. MAL, which is an alert-driven database feeding off passenger manifests processed by Customs, will get an overhaul of its IT processing grunt, a dedicated 24x7 monitoring centre and new, dedicated, secure communications links between DIMIA offices and intelligence and security in Australia and overseas. Winner: $68.9 million tsunami warning system IT will undoubtedly figure prominently as Geoscience Australia and the Bureau of Meteorology combine their efforts to roll out a range of sensors and data collection and fusion capabilities for a tsunami warning system. To be coordinated by a National Tsunami Warning Centre, the project will undoubtedly see some of the allocated $68.9 million funding invested in substantial high-end processing power and rapid communications channels to keep Australia's shores safe. Winner: $69.7 million for ASIO and friends With identity management at the forefront of security-related IT spending, Australia's domestic spooks have also weighed-in with a generous $9.6 million allocation over four years to monitor Australia's borders by drilling Customs' and Immigration's IT systems. While there is predictably little detail, the ASIO money will be used for "better IT systems and communications links with DIMIA". Similarly, a significant portion of a $48.1 million funding increase will go towards enabling "further enhancement of ASIO's analytical and technical capability", which translates to more bodies to man more technology to bug and crack the likes of encrypted VoIP, e-mail and 3G phone systems. ASIO's call centre will also get further funding to the tune of $12 million, while previous funding of $36 million for the Australian Transaction Reports and Analysis Centre's (AUSTRAC) eLearning application to help the financial sector dob in money launderers will remain in place. Loser: OneTel If the backers of failed telco OneTel thought they could tactically "price out" the legal costs of the Australian Securities and Investment Commission (ASIC), they have another think coming. After burning $3.2 million last year, ASIC is getting another $4 million this year to bring the perpetrators to justice under the Corporations Act. Winner: Australian Bureau of Statistics scores $76.2 million for data Perhaps feeling a little guilty over a chronic funding of data collection, the government has managed to see its way clear of $76.2 million over four years to help the ABS expand the range of and quality of data it collects and publishes. That means more storage, more processing power and lashings of integration work. It also includes a $9.1 million as well as a commitment to the controversial eCensus project to allow Australians to submit their 2006 Census information online, something the ABS hopes will reduce costs over time. Winner: IT managers who pay tax Across-the-board tax cuts, especially at the higher end of the pay scale will see IT managers earning up to $125,000 spared the injustice of a 65 percent marginal tax rate. -- I have always felt that a politician is to be judged by the animosities he excites among his opponents. -- Winston Churchill Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From brd at iimetro.com.au Wed May 11 15:42:50 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Wed May 11 15:43:07 2005 Subject: [LINK] Just Desserts Message-ID: <42819B5A.C6006484@iimetro.com.au> Just Desserts* Sue Bushell CIO 05/05/2005 12:51:11 http://cio.idg.com.au/index.php/id;423776825;fp;16;fpid;0 When it comes to IT, sometimes organizations are their own worst enemy. "I'm so glad you've come," he told Ann Moffatt, a director with the Australian Computer Society Foundation, as they sat down to lunch. "I've been looking forward to this lunch all week because I know that you will know why I signed a cheque for $800,000-plus this week for a new computer." "Actually," Moffatt said, "I don't know. Why don't you ask your IT people?" "They won't tell me!" he railed. "When else do you sign a cheque for that amount without knowing what it is for?" Moffatt chided. "Never," he said, "but IT says I won't understand." So do organizations get the IT they deserve? Well. One year Moffatt sat on an advisory board with an IT director from one of the big four banks, an elderly chap who knew nothing about IT but had been given the position and title to "keep an eye on" those IT people. Lunching with Moffatt he enquired whether she knew anything about system "X", the bank's new system that had regularly been the subject of media and industry speculation. Moffatt replied that she did not know much more than she had read in the newspaper or heard around the industry but would love to hear more about it from him. "Oh dear," he said. "That's where I get my information from. I know you get 'round the industry so I'd hoped you could tell me all about it." "Why don't you ask your IT staff?" Moffatt asked. He replied he had asked, but they would not tell him. Soon after that lunch, the system was abandoned, costing the bank millions of dollars. So do organizations get the IT they deserve? Years earlier, Moffatt was put in charge of all development and a maintenance staff of 60-plus for the Australian Stock Exchange while a group of consultants from one of Australia's then largest management consulting firms was developing the new automated trading system, SEATS. When Moffatt insisted on integration testing, concerned about issues surrounding the docket numbers that recorded each trade, the executive resisted fiercely, insisting the consultants knew what they were doing. "I dug my heels in and system testing was done with much harrumphing from the execs because more discrepancies were found," she says. "I was told that I had delayed the system for six months. "With system testing complete, I insisted on user testing. 'Was I mad?' I was asked. This was late 1987 and huge volumes of stocks were being traded. I'd already stopped the system from going live for six months. Did I think that brokers would test a computer system? Hadn't my staff tested properly? Again I dug my heels in . . . More errors found! "Seven months later the system went live the day before the October crash. Trading on that day was the highest ever on stock exchanges around the world. I was very proud that our system in Australia was one of the only systems in the world to stay 'up' on that day," Moffatt says. "Of course after that I was a hero but a weaker IT exec might have given in to 'the management', and guess who would have got the blame?" So do organizations indeed get the IT they deserve? You betcha. Phil Windley, a US-based expert in using IT to add value to business and author of the blog Phil Windley's Technometria (www.windley.com), has been using just these words as a slogan since he was CIO for Utah from 2001 to 2002. Time and time again, he says, he has seen organizations large and small that were their own worst enemies when it came to IT. Some were short-sighted, some were led by business leaders who did not understand what IT could and could not do, some refused to use best practices and other proven methods. The list went on. "There were a lot of reasons, but the end result was an IT infrastructure that didn't meet the business needs of the organization. Usually they blamed the wrong things or just lived with the results believing they were inevitable," Windley says. It is easy, even natural, to point the finger at the CIO when IT goes wrong, but if the top end of the company does not understand IT or give the IT folks full support, and if the users at the other end have unrealistic expectations, just how fair is it for the CIO to cop all the blame? Painfully Aware It is not as if CEOs are oblivious to their own IT policy and strategy weaknesses. According to the IT Governance Institute's 2004 IT Governance Global Status Report, although more than 91 percent of executives recognize that IT is vital to the success of their businesses, 76 percent also know that they have IT problems that could be resolved by implementing an IT governance framework. In addition, CEOs and CIOs alike named an inadequate view on how well IT is performing as their number one problem in their top 10 IT-related problems and priorities, and gave addressing operational failures as their highest priority. The trouble is, recognizing the existence of a problem and identifying its root causes are two very different things. So, who is to blame when IT is not serving the company's needs and how does one decide accountability? Terry Shipham, Bearing Point's managing director for Enterprise Solutions, who has spent approximately half his 25-year-long IT career in corporate IT and the other half in consulting, certainly thinks organizations, time and again, do get the IT they deserve. And they get those just deserts largely because of a stubborn refusal to learn from experience. "I think we see continued failures of implementation of systems, and you see the same reasons for those failures occur again and again," Shipham says. "You sometimes wonder why nothing changes to address that. It is very rare to see a proper engagement between the IT organization and the business in organizations." One set of problems, Shipham says, comes about because the IT organization is either unable or unwilling to do sufficient planning or homework. Too often the IT group either fails to do requirements planning or fails to design systems properly, leaving people to operate by guesswork. Take the example of utilities billing systems, where many organizations have failed to implement new billing or customer information systems despite their competitors' high levels of success in doing so. Typically, the problems arise because there has been a lack of requirements specifications, because people have taken on tasks they do not have the skills base for or because they have failed to fully examine the options. Sometimes a failure of the CIO to communicate the complexity of the work and a failure to engage the business in what will be a significant change program is also at fault. But then again, if IT is guilty of not performing adequate due diligence, too often that is because the business will not let them. "Everyone thinks that IT can't be too hard," Shipham says. "So I think there is a lack of patience, or even tolerance, from the business for the IT guys to do sufficient homework or sufficient planning. But on the other hand I don't think the IT people do a good enough job of communicating and taking these challenges to the business." Blame, in other words, lies as often with the business as IT. Although it may not always be the individuals filling key positions, but rather the organizational structure that is most at fault. Kathryn Cason, president and co-founder of Requisite Organization International Institute, points out CIO work is as diverse as the number of people holding the title; the situation for the CIO who works in banking can be quite distinct from that of the CIO who works in retail or manufacturing. "Let's put [the question of blame] in a more positive light: Who is accountable for the result of the work that the CIO does? That is clearly the CEO. So if the CIO is failing, then the CEO and board haven't done something that they should have done. And the success of the CIO is most often hampered by the lack of an intact functional managerial system," she says. Cason was in Australia last December to attend the first conference in this country to examine the work of the seminal organizational scientist, the late Canadian Professor Elliott Jaques, who developed a comprehensive, unified theory of people and organization he named "Requisite Organization". Jaques's work has found wide application in organizations as diverse as the military, police, churches, schools, banking, mining and manufacturing. His research helped illuminate the nature of work, human capability and trust-inducing social systems as the groundwork for building strong, resilient, competitive, socially responsible employment systems. Implications extend from corporate governance to specific managerial leadership practices, equitable remuneration, role clarity and increased mutual trust. Integrated management is the key. "There are problems in every organization that we go into around the world," Cason says. "And that is that there are large pockets of people in all of the functions who really don't have a manager that integrates their work with all the other people's in the company. Because of that, information systems technology simply can't get pushed through the organization. "If you [have] a CEO who says: 'I have a CIO who is going to give us, the company, this system that we need to compete in the marketplace', but the CEO and the CIO do not have a complete unbroken line, managerial line, from that top to the bottom of the organization, there is no way that either one of them can integrate. And that is what the CIO is asked to do in architecture: to integrate information and also drive many processes. And unless there is an unbroken line flow in the organization for that to happen, they cannot integrate." The fact that IT has primarily been pushed into a project management corner has proved disastrous, and the tendency to transfer that format to the rest of the corporation has created even more disasters, Carson says. Why is it disastrous? Because project management does not integrate the whole system, she says. The only way to integrate all the systems of the corporation is through the managerial model. "And if there is a break in any of that vertical or horizontal basic structure you create a friction that can seriously eat away at the effectiveness of everybody in the organization," she says. Cason claims there are barely a handful of CEOs anywhere in the world today who can announce a change to their organization and know that within 24 hours every employee - even if there are 60,000 of them - will get the update. CIOs, often acutely aware this is so, risk being made scapegoats for circumstances entirely beyond their control. She advises the CIO to first get his or her own house in order, because their own organization will certainly reflect the disorganization in the rest of the company. "If [the CIO] has a managerial system within his own organization that allows him then to go to other parts of the organization in a way that makes it possible for them to respond . . . it helps him actually get response from the rest of the organization," she says. Who's to Blame Closely related to managerial structure is the issue of managerial control. David Preston, assistant professor of Information Systems with Texas Christian University, is developing a paper - a spin-off from the dissertation work he completed last year - that is seeking to address the issue of accountability for IT failures. Preston argues that while CIOs are intrinsically responsible - at least in part - for the success or failure of IS within the organization, their actual culpability is typically dependent upon how much control they are given within the organization. True, what happens with IT is the CIO's responsibility, he argues, but whether IS succeeds or fails depends on what role the CIO is allowed to play in the organization as dictated by the CEO and the top management team. "The CIO defined as a top executive purportedly can influence success or failure," he says. "However, if the CIO is not a legitimate member of the top management team, or if they do not have a direct reporting relationship with the CEO, are they really a master of IS's destiny within the organization? This is critical to how much the CIO can control the success or failure of IT within the organization. That said, Preston points out that CIOs, having been given a degree of power, are also held to account for that power and the impact they make on the organization. "Are there other elements as well? Certainly," says Preston. "What I looked at in the case of IS success or failure is a shared understanding of the role of IS in the organization. Sometimes, if the CIO is not on the same page as the CEO and the top management team, IS has got to be ineffective." Black Widow Projects Many organizations have suffered "black widow projects" - projects that should never have been given the green light but that went ahead anyway because there was a feeling there were business reasons they should be pushed forward, says Jo Stewart Rattray director of information security for Vectra Corporation. However, CIOs in too many organizations have equally been somewhat misplaced because they do not really hold a seat on the executive board even though they are in a C-level role, she says. Rattray believes having that seat is paramount to an organization getting the IT it needs. "There needs to be that strategic buy-in at the governing level as well, which means IT and the governance of IT are part of the organization's core objectives and corporate governance profiles," she says. "There was a classic example with a large international retailer where they had been moving down the path in which it appeared they were in good shape governance-wise, but it actually was not until a couple of the C-level people left that they realized they were actually in a very bad position. They had good IT input into the organization but the governors and their security position were indeed compromised. Had there been some more openness and that seat at the executive level for the CIO, it would have been averted. Strategy should be meeting operations in those situations," Rattray says. "The other interesting thing I have often seen is the incredible project that goes on and on and on because of a political need to go on regardless of the money that it has cost. I have seen this in some of the very large not-for-profit organizations, because there is politics in every sense of the word going on, and because there is going to be a change in legislation. So they are trying to play both ends against the middle to make sure that they are in the right position at the end of the day." Australian Craig Watters, the CEO of Management Simulations, who teaches at DePaul University Chicago and has been in Chicago for the past 22 years, says not all the CIOs of his client companies - very large organizations, typically in the top 100 - have or need a seat at the executive table. For instance the CIO of Caterpillar, the world's leading manufacturer of construction and mining equipment, does not. He says he is not convinced a failure to grant enough responsibility to the CIO is necessarily a factor where the IT organization is seen as failing to address business needs. In fact, he says he can cite "glorious examples of organizations where the problems with the organizations have emanated from the CIO's area of direct responsibility, but that that doesn't necessarily mean the CIO should cop the blame". Watters says two clients of his demonstrate the extremes. At one, one of the largest companies in the world, there is a training centre backed by an IT system "par excellence" with Web access via high-speed broadband, while at the other, also in the Dow Jones top 30 and one of the largest car manufacturers in the world, they cannot even guarantee telephone line access. "The problem is twofold," Watters says. "Firstly, the IT department is not necessarily seen in the full light of strategic deployment: That is, I do not believe there are enough conversations about practical steps that we all need to take in the information technology domain, to be consistent with a particular deployment strategically. If you have got a strategy over the next five years that says: 'We are going to achieve this level of success by concentrating ourselves on these axes', then one of the questions needs to be: 'What are the support tools that we put in place for that?' And too often you go looking for a big IT strategy piece in the strategic plan and you do not find it because there is not one." Yes, there are times that can be "unquestionably" the CIO's fault, he says. But more often than not it is because much of the leadership in these organizations does not understand the need for that kind of high-level IT intervention as it was not required when they were doing those kinds of jobs 10 or 15 years ago. "For one thing, in too many cases the dominant coalition in the organization does not have the skill set to really recognize the desirability of a true IT strategy. And I do not think we have got enough CIOs who have got the clout and the balls to actually push it through as hard as they should. I also think that what CIOs do not do well is to beat their own drum. If you are looking for good PR CIOs, well, good luck to you." When Watters gave the 30 senior executives of one Dow Jones top 10 company their manuals for a new system on a memory stick, more than 20 had to ask how they could get those manuals onto their computer. "Now these are the people that are making the senior strategic decisions for the deployment of company resources and they cannot even run a laptop," Watters says. "And several of them were quite open about it. One guy in particular said to me: 'Oh no, I never touch the computer - my secretary does that'. Well how is that bloke going to understand that information technology tactics make a huge difference to the quality of the strategy deployed?" Watters believes as more senior executives become "IT-conversant" such problems will partially ease. But he argues the best way to turn such situations around sooner is for the IT department to be able to claim some "raging success stories". It is very rare still for companies to be able to attribute any element of their success to an IT strategy that really differentiates them from the competition. "We need tonnes more of those success stories," he says. "Just the growing [numbers] of IT-conversant people is going to make a huge difference; but on the other hand I think some of those IT-conversant people are going to start kicking the asses of IT departments that are very reactionary." It Takes Two to Tango How reasonable is it to demand CIOs be well versed in the business, as most businesses now do, while excusing business from knowing anything about IT? Bruce Campbell, a lecturer at the Faculty of Information Technology at University of Technology Sydney, is currently conducting PhD studies into the enablers and inhibitors to IS/business alignment, having interviewed both business and IT managers across a range of companies and industries. He says the perceived attitude to the IT role by senior business managers will, to a large extent, dictate the type of IT service provided. And changing that attitude is almost impossible. IT is often regarded as a service but few business managers wish to become involved in either understanding or managing that service, Campbell points out. "It appears that, worldwide, IT management subjects are becoming less popular in business degrees at both undergraduate and postgraduate levels," he says. "A complaint of CIOs is that, in contrast, they are expected to have a reasonably in-depth knowledge of all other business functions. There is a double standard in operation." Further, Campbell notes, the performance measures applied to business units and managers have a significant impact on the IT service that is provided. Most incentive and measurement schemes have a short horizon. This often results in IT-related decisions taken by business managers to maximize their own performance in the short term that are often detrimental to the organization in the long term. And the situation is not helped by the habit of many organizations of purposely putting various business units into competition with each other, making a corporate-wide IT response difficult to plan and implement. "Each of these situations leads to different IS 'strategies' being implemented at different levels of an organization and in various business units," he says. "The structure of most organizations makes it almost impossible to develop trust between IT and other personnel," Campbell says. "This, then, retards the development of shared domain knowledge, which has been shown to be vital in the provision of a superior IT service." Peter Bars, partner, CIO Services with Deloitte, agrees the key to IT optimization lies not in the types, uses and cost of technology, but in the governance models used to manage and integrate IT within the business. It is not what you spend but how you govern IT that unlocks value. Bars defines IT governance as the organized capacity to guide the formulation of IT strategy and plans, direct development and implementation of initiatives and the oversight of IT operations works well in order to achieve competitive advantage for the corporation. He says it comprises six key tasks: leadership; planning; capital allocation; policy setting; coordination and compliance; and monitoring and qualitative benchmarking. Governance goes to the heart of the IT infrastructure, Bars says: It is not static but continually evolves in line with shifts in the market and business environment. "CIOs face two challenges: keeping the lights on, or the utility level, and pushing the strategic agenda. If the CIO can win credibility and respect at a utility level, there's more likely to be support, from the bottom up, for more innovative IT projects. Good governance means distinguishing the utility or must have elements of IT from the innovative components, which are essential for competitive advantage, in order to achieve value. Both elements need to be sufficiently dynamic to cope with increasingly unpredictable commercial environments. "The CIO has the opportunity to give organizations the IT they deserve by using appropriate governance to unlock the value of IT and secure a seat at the top table." Turning It Around So what is the remedy and how do you make your organization deserving of excellent IT? Bearing Point's Shipham believes the one change that can have the most impact is to get the people within the business and technology groups to be engaged in an appropriate way. This is not a question of engaging any particular organizational model or structure - Shipham says he has seen all manner of structures deployed - but of looking at the way the two groups engage and communicate and work together. "I think that is number one: The IT department needs to do measurement and long-term planning, it needs to have a good sense of where the business is heading, and therefore what type of systems and platforms may be needed," he says. "Forward planning is probably number two. Number three is the need to do a realistic assessment of what they [the IT department] are doing. The fact that they can do one implementation of technology very well doesn't mean that they can do another. "You continually see organizations take on things which in essence have as much an element of research and R&D as they have a project implementation. They are learning as they go. It's very hard to gain measures around time, cost and quality if you're still learning what the project is all about." CIOs must also recognize that a person who is able to build a 10-storey commercial building is not the right person to build a 100-storey building or a tunnel or a bridge. The CIO needs to do realistic assessments and have the best possible management processes in play. "And the tools to some extent are not the issue here," Shipham says. "It's about having a realistic assessment of what your capabilities are and what the risks are around the project, so that you can work out where you might need to do things differently. "What is it that the CEO and top management team expects? What are their expectations? If they don't think IS can do too much at all well, the CIO is not going to be able to get strategic initiatives off the ground. He or she needs to educate them and manage their expectations. "On the other hand, if the senior executives in top management think IS can revolutionize everything that the organization is doing, then it is the CIO's role to inform and educate the top management team about the true capabilities of IS within the organization. You both manage them upwards and bring them back down to a realistic viewpoint on what IS can legitimately do for that organization," he says. Then the CEO and top management team will be much more deserving of excellent, purpose-built IT, and it will simultaneously become much easier to provide. And that's a situation you'd think any savvy CEO would appreciate, especially if you believe that an organization indeed gets the IT they deserve. * For nit-pickers: Yes, I know that the expression is actually "just deserts", but you try finding a picture of a desert. However, in the interest of fair play I did leave the correct version in the story itself. - Ed -- Cash-payment never was, or could except for a few years be, the union-bond of man to man. Cash never yet paid one man fully his deserts to another; nor could it, nor can it, now or henceforth to the end of the world. -- Thomas Carlyle Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From stephen at melbpc.org.au Thu May 12 00:38:12 2005 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley) Date: Thu May 12 00:38:32 2005 Subject: [LINK] Wikipedia popularity Message-ID: <428218D4.5090901@melbpc.org.au> Hi all .. Wikipedia, the web reference site, is apparently doing quite well. ("Wiki" n.) "A collaborative Web site comprised of the perpetual collective work of many authors. Similar to a blog in structure and logic, a wiki allows anyone to edit, delete or modify content that has been placed on the Web site using a browser interface .." Wikipedia's Popularity and Traffic Soar ? ? ? Traffic Patterns By Enid Burns | May 10, 2005 Open source Wikipedia has become the second-most visited reference site on the Web. That's according to data compiled by Hitwise. Research conducted in mid-April 2005 finds Wikipedia hitting traffic rates of 3.84 percent, closely behind the top traffic earner, Dictionary.com, with 4.46 percent market share. Wordsmith Merriam-Webster Online maintains a steady 1.35 percent and Free Translation hovers at just below one percent. Wikipedia edged out About.com to claim the highest market share among encyclopedia sites. Answers.com came in at 1.9 percent; Encarta wavered to 1.81 percent. Hitwise watched Wikipedia's market share climb an astonishing 618 percent over the past year. Hitwise now also identifies the site as a news resource. Wikipedia can be freely updated by readers by means of a wiki (define). "We have been keeping an eye on Wikipedia because it looks like a way for consumers to get news and reference on the Web," Bill Tancer, vice president of research for Hitwise, told ClickZ Stats. "Wikipedia [traffic]\ was up there with big news organizations during the tsunami." Wikipedia contains 536,246 ongoing articles spanning 1,540,695 pages, all maintained by the site's users. Hitwise found Wikipedia's audience evenly split between male and females. Young adults age 18 to 24 are 50 percent more likely to visit the site. -- Regards all .. Stephen Loosley Melbourne, Australia From slc at publicus.net Thu May 12 05:46:23 2005 From: slc at publicus.net (Steven Clift) Date: Thu May 12 05:46:29 2005 Subject: [LINK] GroupServer, Issues Forums in local Australia? Message-ID: <036e01c55662$1cc47cf0$6500a8c0@PUBLICUS2> A number of years ago I spoke with folks at Vicnet about their MC2 project and its possible open source release. It don't believe that that ever happened and I am not sure about its wide spread use in Victoria. Glancing at their web site it still looks like a neat tool - but it isn't available for other to download and use. Anyway, E-Democracy.Org has been looking for an open source platform we could invest our energy into and we've found it in New Zealand. We also happened to get some change from the UK government's Local E-democracy National Project and now have a 60 page guidebook, some multimedia, and other information on how you can start a forum in your town: http://e-democracy.org/uk You've got to figure if something from Minnesota is working in the UK (see Brighton & Hove), it ought to work somewhere in the Australia. For the more technical minded, take a peak at GroupServer: http://e-democracy.org/groupserver - include web video tour http://groupserver.org - official site Cheers, Steven Clift E-Democracy.Org Steven Clift - http://publicus.net - Reply to: clift@publicus.net Join DoWire: http://dowire.org E-Democracy: http://e-democracy.org From sam at stainsby.id.au Thu May 12 08:19:42 2005 From: sam at stainsby.id.au (Sam Stainsby) Date: Thu May 12 08:19:51 2005 Subject: [LINK] GroupServer, Issues Forums in local Australia? In-Reply-To: <036e01c55662$1cc47cf0$6500a8c0@PUBLICUS2> References: <036e01c55662$1cc47cf0$6500a8c0@PUBLICUS2> Message-ID: <428284FE.4090303@stainsby.id.au> Steven Clift wrote: >A number of years ago I spoke with folks at Vicnet about their MC2 >project and its possible open source >release. It don't believe that that ever happened and I am not sure >about its wide spread use in Victoria. Glancing at their web site it >still looks like a neat tool - but it isn't available for other to >download and use. > >Anyway, E-Democracy.Org has been looking for an open source platform we >could invest our energy into and we've found it in New Zealand. We also >happened to get some change from the UK government's Local E-democracy >National Project and now have a 60 page guidebook, some multimedia, and >other information on how you can start a forum in your town: >http://e-democracy.org/uk > >You've got to figure if something from Minnesota is working in the UK >(see Brighton & Hove), it ought to work somewhere in the Australia. > >For the more technical minded, take a peak at GroupServer: >http://e-democracy.org/groupserver - include web video tour >http://groupserver.org - official site > >Cheers, >Steven Clift >E-Democracy.Org > > I have built and moderated the secure online forums for the Queensland Greens since 2003 (we used PostNuke with some extra add-ons). Previously we were using Yahoo! Groups. We rejected forums that allowed email participation because invariably someone would leak an email, either accidentally or intentionally without realising the consequences. If forums are publicly viewable anyway, then this is not a problem. We are expecting to move to Plone soon, so I would be keen to hear what GroupServer is providing beyond standard Plone groups and forums. Also, how well is it integrated - for example, Plone groups and users can be easily sourced from various backends such as LDAP (I'm doing some work with this in The Wilderness Society). Forums have been good for the QLD Greens, but they have their limitations. They are great for keeping informed, and to some extent for having debates and to an even lesser extent coordinating activities. Maybe this is not a problem for classical 'e-democracy' sites. E-democracy.org's exact aim are a little fuzzy: "Building online public space in the heart of real democracy and community since 1994." Keeping local MPs informed about public community is probably one laudable aim. However, my fear is that people can get absorbed in the 'idle chit-chat' and never actually get anything decided or done. What interests me now is somehow moving beyond forums to a system that can: 1. still allow discussions; 2. facilitate decision making - this is more than just voting - the ideal is that active participants will reach a consensus after informed debate - if not, then you need to decide when the debate has proceeded long enough for everyone to be 'informed' - and really only informed people (those who have been active in the debate) should vote; 3. capture decisions for easy future reference - this can include capturing 'group knowledge' such as policy e.g. "smoking should be banned in all public places" 4. facilitate the planning and coordination group activities (somewhere between todo lists and project management); 5. facilitate forming groups of appropriate size and membership; 6. facilitate weaving of group knowledge into documents such as submissions and complete policy documents - a bit like a wiki 7. (perhaps) facilitates peer rating of participant's contributions so that the noise can be filtered out if people want to, and also as a measure of useful participation (something like Slashdot) Essentially, the system then becomes focussed on activities (including decision making) rather than just discussion topics. Instead of just letting the world float by whilst we discuss how good/bad it is, the aim is to actively engage people in doing something about it. What better way to send a focussed message to your local MPs. Such a tool could also be used in businesses and all manner of government and non-government organisations. If anyone knows of a system that does some or all of these things, then please let me know. Otherwise, I guess I'll have to build it. From KerryA.Webb at act.gov.au Thu May 12 09:20:41 2005 From: KerryA.Webb at act.gov.au (Webb, KerryA) Date: Thu May 12 09:20:50 2005 Subject: [LINK] Wikipedia popularity Message-ID: <6728FC12ECED9547862D3B4261FBCE00F21799@cal067.act.gov.au> Stephen wrote: > Hi all .. > > Wikipedia, the web reference site, is apparently doing quite well. > > ("Wiki" n.) "A collaborative Web site comprised of the perpetual > collective work of many authors. Similar to a blog in structure and > logic, a wiki allows anyone to edit, delete or modify content that has > been placed on the Web site using a browser interface .." > Which summarises why some people don't like the concept. How does the ordinary user know whether the content is reliable? I think the jury is still out. Kerry (elitist, as far as information provision is concerned) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If you are not the intended recipient: Please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Thu May 12 09:58:51 2005 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Thu May 12 09:58:59 2005 Subject: [LINK] GroupServer, Issues Forums in local Australia? In-Reply-To: <428284FE.4090303@stainsby.id.au> References: <036e01c55662$1cc47cf0$6500a8c0@PUBLICUS2> <428284FE.4090303@stainsby.id.au> Message-ID: <6b413fa46f15a2ed212c527aa7a9f0c1@tony-barry.emu.id.au> On 12 May 2005, at 8:19 AM, Sam Stainsby wrote: > 2. facilitate decision making - this is more than just voting - the > ideal is that active participants will reach a consensus after > informed debate - if not, then you need to decide when the debate has > proceeded long enough for everyone to be 'informed' - and really only > informed people (those who have been active in the debate) should > vote; Something like "To vote you need to have made three contributions to the thread"? > 7. (perhaps) facilitates peer rating of participant's contributions so > that the noise can be filtered out if people want to, and also as a > measure of useful participation (something like Slashdot) > If the group rates the contributions something like google eg "Was this posting useful to you?" then you could give voting rights based on the cumulative score of the poster? You get to vote if you contributed to the discussion AND enough people found your posting useful? This might freeze out mavericks or those who post a lot of peripheral stuff which irritates people and which causes their good postings to be discounted? Tony phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Thu May 12 09:59:44 2005 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Thu May 12 09:59:49 2005 Subject: [LINK] FW: Antispam blacklist targets 900,000 Message-ID: <6983e252bbecf7f20639daee6b5f632f@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Begin forwarded message: > > > The attached message has been automatically discarded. > From: Eric Scheid > Date: 11 May 2005 5:43:36 PM > To: LINK > Subject: FW: ANTISPAM BLACKLIST TARGETS 900,000 > > > > ------ Forwarded Message > From: Educause Educause > Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 16:22:24 -0600 > Subject: Edupage, May 09, 2005 > > ANTISPAM BLACKLIST TARGETS 900,000 > > Officials at the Spam Prevention Early Warning System (SPEWS) have > placed e-mail addresses of 900,000 Telewest customers on its blacklist, > saying that computers using those addresses may have been hijacked and > used for sending spam. Many organizations use the SPEWS blacklists as > e-mail filters--anything coming from an address on the list is blocked. > Telewest acknowledged that some subscribers of its Blueyonder broadband > service have had their computers compromised by computer viruses and > turned into e-mail zombies. Company officials said they are working to > contact those users with suspiciously high volumes of e-mail traffic to > help them clean their machines. "As you can imagine," said a statement > from the company, "[it] is a time-consuming task." Matt Peachey of > antispam software firm Ironport said he doubts all of the blocked > computers have in fact been turned into spam zombies by hackers. > Peachey accused SPEWS of casting too wide a net in its blacklisting. > > BBC, 9 May 2005 > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4528927.stm > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > > > phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From cas at taz.net.au Thu May 12 10:43:19 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Thu May 12 10:41:32 2005 Subject: [LINK] Wikipedia popularity In-Reply-To: <6728FC12ECED9547862D3B4261FBCE00F21799@cal067.act.gov.au> References: <6728FC12ECED9547862D3B4261FBCE00F21799@cal067.act.gov.au> Message-ID: <20050512004319.GS18150@taz.net.au> On Thu, May 12, 2005 at 09:20:41AM +1000, Webb, KerryA wrote: > How does the ordinary user know whether the content is reliable? the same way they can tell if the content on TV news or newspaper/magazine article (whether mainstream or not) is reliable - by using their brains and exercising discretion and judgment, coupled with a healthy dose of cynicism and a willingness to read behind the lines and wonder "what's the angle? who benefits from this line of argument?". i'm more inclined to trust the internet, including wikipedia, and bloggers - not as individuals, but as a collective. the *diversity* of opinions and commentary and facts presented, makes it possible to see the multiple sides (that's *multiple*, not just *two* sides) to any story, rather than just the "official" story pushed by government and the giant media corporations. the "mainstream" or "authoritatively published" encyclopedia have no guarantee of reliability either. take a look, for example, at the many examples of biased propaganda in Microsoft Encarta encyclopedia - from misrepresentation of Hinduism and Hindu festivals, to blatantly false propaganda about El Salvador and Nicaragua. > I think the jury is still out. the jury is almost always either out or ignorant or bought and paid for. don't rely on one to tell you your opinions. > (elitist, as far as information provision is concerned) i'm ultra-elitist - i only trust my own judgement(*), all else is suspect. (*) and even that gets reviewed & critically examined from time to time. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From tal at pacific.net.au Thu May 12 11:20:28 2005 From: tal at pacific.net.au (tal) Date: Thu May 12 11:22:37 2005 Subject: [LINK] Wikipedia popularity In-Reply-To: <6728FC12ECED9547862D3B4261FBCE00F21799@cal067.act.gov.au> References: <6728FC12ECED9547862D3B4261FBCE00F21799@cal067.act.gov.au> Message-ID: <1115860828.5839.38.camel@canetoad> On Thu, 2005-05-12 at 09:20, Webb, KerryA wrote: > How does the ordinary user know whether the content is reliable? > > I think the jury is still out. it's very reliable, but in a different way than you're used to, it's not an absolute snapshot verified by academics and intellectuals, if you want that buy an encyclopedia. this is more like a moving average, it is the common perception, the consensual reality, but spiced up with the extremes of expertise and delusion. however, when you actually check it out against conventional sources, it is surprisingly accurate, and has up to the minute data. also, and nobody has mentioned this, it's not totally freeform, there are editors than can uninsert and undelete items, and so it can be rolled back to a known state and reedited, and it tends to have the silly bits edited out. also, convoluted language tends to get the chop, and it wins big on accessibility. Tim Lister South Sydney Greens (02)9557 4050 timlister@webspinning.org http://ssg.nsw.greens.org.au "Think Globally, Act Locally" From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au Thu May 12 12:05:16 2005 From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee) Date: Thu May 12 12:05:20 2005 Subject: [LINK] Wikipedia popularity In-Reply-To: <20050512004319.GS18150@taz.net.au>; from cas@taz.net.au on Thu, May 12, 2005 at 10:43:19AM +1000 References: <6728FC12ECED9547862D3B4261FBCE00F21799@cal067.act.gov.au> <20050512004319.GS18150@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <20050512120516.E24734@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> Craig Sanders wrote: > the "mainstream" or "authoritatively published" encyclopedia have no > guarantee of reliability either. take a look, for example, at the many > examples of biased propaganda in Microsoft Encarta encyclopedia Or consider the (probably excessive) fuss over errors in the recently published Oxford Dictionary of National Biography... http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/referenceandlanguages/0,6121,1312011,00.html Danny. ---------------------------------------------------------- http://dannyreviews.com/ - over eight hundred book reviews http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog ---------------------------------------------------------- From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Thu May 12 12:25:12 2005 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Thu May 12 12:25:17 2005 Subject: [LINK] GroupServer, Issues Forums in local Australia? In-Reply-To: <6b413fa46f15a2ed212c527aa7a9f0c1@tony-barry.emu.id.au> References: <036e01c55662$1cc47cf0$6500a8c0@PUBLICUS2> <428284FE.4090303@stainsby.id.au> <6b413fa46f15a2ed212c527aa7a9f0c1@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Message-ID: On 12 May 2005, at 9:58 AM, Antony Barry wrote: > something like google eg "Was this posting useful to you?" Oops! For Google read Amazon. Tony phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Thu May 12 12:29:47 2005 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Thu May 12 12:29:54 2005 Subject: [LINK] Wikipedia popularity In-Reply-To: <20050512004319.GS18150@taz.net.au> References: <6728FC12ECED9547862D3B4261FBCE00F21799@cal067.act.gov.au> <20050512004319.GS18150@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <4f955c5462a542974b8e3534558b24b6@tony-barry.emu.id.au> On 12 May 2005, at 10:43 AM, Craig Sanders wrote: > i'm more inclined to trust the internet, including wikipedia, and > bloggers - > not as individuals, but as a collective. the *diversity* of opinions > and > commentary and facts presented, makes it possible to see the multiple > sides > (that's *multiple*, not just *two* sides) to any story, rather than > just the > "official" story pushed by government and the giant media corporations. Since I've been using google news I'm even more aware that often/mostly a story that is repeated in many newspapers is often all source back to one place such as reuters. Just because lots of mainstream media outlets agree does not attest to the truth of the matter. Interestingly in science stories the source is often New Scientist which gets it's story from Science or Nature! Tony phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From sam at stainsby.id.au Thu May 12 12:32:40 2005 From: sam at stainsby.id.au (Sam Stainsby) Date: Thu May 12 12:33:05 2005 Subject: [LINK] Wikipedia popularity In-Reply-To: <6728FC12ECED9547862D3B4261FBCE00F21799@cal067.act.gov.au> References: <6728FC12ECED9547862D3B4261FBCE00F21799@cal067.act.gov.au> Message-ID: <4282C048.6080101@stainsby.id.au> Webb, KerryA wrote: >Stephen wrote: > > > >>Hi all .. >> >>Wikipedia, the web reference site, is apparently doing quite well. >> >> ("Wiki" n.) "A collaborative Web site comprised of the perpetual >>collective work of many authors. Similar to a blog in structure and >>logic, a wiki allows anyone to edit, delete or modify content that has >>been placed on the Web site using a browser interface .." >> >> >> > >Which summarises why some people don't like the concept. > >How does the ordinary user know whether the content is reliable? > >I think the jury is still out. > Ah, that is the question there is no doubt. How do we ever know? Example: do what trust the scientists that say food from genetically modified organisms is safe, or those scientists that say it isn't? If we're not specialists in that field, who do we know who to trust. Do people in other areas (environment, social science, Aunty Matilda from next door, the farmer down the road) have other angles that are missed by hard science? The more I think about it, the harder that question is to answer. -- Sam Stainsby From sam at stainsby.id.au Thu May 12 12:39:14 2005 From: sam at stainsby.id.au (Sam Stainsby) Date: Thu May 12 12:39:27 2005 Subject: [LINK] GroupServer, Issues Forums in local Australia? In-Reply-To: <6b413fa46f15a2ed212c527aa7a9f0c1@tony-barry.emu.id.au> References: <036e01c55662$1cc47cf0$6500a8c0@PUBLICUS2> <428284FE.4090303@stainsby.id.au> <6b413fa46f15a2ed212c527aa7a9f0c1@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Message-ID: <4282C1D2.5080104@stainsby.id.au> Antony Barry wrote: > > On 12 May 2005, at 8:19 AM, Sam Stainsby wrote: > >> 2. facilitate decision making - this is more than just voting - the >> ideal is that active participants will reach a consensus after >> informed debate - if not, then you need to decide when the debate has >> proceeded long enough for everyone to be 'informed' - and really only >> informed people (those who have been active in the debate) should vote; > > > Something like "To vote you need to have made three contributions to > the thread"? > >> 7. (perhaps) facilitates peer rating of participant's contributions >> so that the noise can be filtered out if people want to, and also as >> a measure of useful participation (something like Slashdot) >> > > If the group rates the contributions something like google eg "Was > this posting useful to you?" then you could give voting rights based > on the cumulative score of the poster? You get to vote if you > contributed to the discussion AND enough people found your posting > useful? > > This might freeze out mavericks or those who post a lot of peripheral > stuff which irritates people and which causes their good postings to > be discounted? > > Tony > phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au > mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au > Yes, exactly those sorts of strategies and others have been keeping me awake at night. Making a system that is fair and abuse-safe is the tricky part. I think facilitators/moderator might be required for each group. From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Thu May 12 13:28:23 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Thu May 12 13:29:39 2005 Subject: [LINK] Wikipedia popularity Message-ID: <20050512032823.WJGT8920.swebmail00.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> > i'm more inclined to trust the internet, including wikipedia, and bloggers - > not as individuals, but as a collective. Would this be the same collective which still firmly believes that Multnomah County in Oregon once advertised for Vulcan interpreters? RC the *diversity* of opinions and > commentary and facts presented, makes it possible to see the multiple sides > (that's *multiple*, not just *two* sides) to any story, rather than just the > "official" story pushed by government and the giant media corporations. > > > the "mainstream" or "authoritatively published" encyclopedia have no guarantee > of reliability either. take a look, for example, at the many examples of > biased propaganda in Microsoft Encarta encyclopedia - from misrepresentation > of Hinduism and Hindu festivals, to blatantly false propaganda about El > Salvador and Nicaragua. > > > I think the jury is still out. > > the jury is almost always either out or ignorant or bought and paid for. > don't rely on one to tell you your opinions. > > > > (elitist, as far as information provision is concerned) > > i'm ultra-elitist - i only trust my own judgement(*), all else is suspect. > > > (*) and even that gets reviewed & critically examined from time to time. > > craig > > -- > craig sanders (part time cyborg) > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Thu May 12 13:46:10 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Thu May 12 13:46:15 2005 Subject: [LINK] Correction Message-ID: <20050512034610.WJOX8920.swebmail00.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> Klingon speakers, not Vulcan, was the source of the now-ineradicable urban legend ... RC This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au From cas at taz.net.au Thu May 12 14:20:06 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Thu May 12 14:18:22 2005 Subject: [LINK] Wikipedia popularity In-Reply-To: <20050512032823.WJGT8920.swebmail00.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> References: <20050512032823.WJGT8920.swebmail00.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> Message-ID: <20050512042006.GT18150@taz.net.au> On Thu, May 12, 2005 at 01:28:23PM +1000, rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > > i'm more inclined to trust the internet, including wikipedia, and > > bloggers - not as individuals, but as a collective. > > Would this be the same collective which still firmly believes that > Multnomah County in Oregon once advertised for Vulcan interpreters? no, it would be the "collective" that consists of me reading a bunch of stuff from a variety of sources and making up my own mind based on what i find to be the most or the least credible. IMO, this is a far better method than just believing the first (or most prominent or most common or most allegedly-"reputable" source) thing that you read. i don't believe in "reputable sources". nobody with any sense does. everything and everyone is biased in some way - the trick is to identify the particular kind of bias and take it into account when you're reading any article/story/opinion/whatever. i know this attitude is probably horrifying or at least disturbing to journalists - but, really, you've only got yourselves to blame. enough journos (and papers and radio and tv shows) have proven themselves to be worthless PR-republishing shills that it should come as no surprise that nobody trusts what they say any more. some are, no doubt, still honest. but they're in the minority and vanishing fast. craig PS: the example you gave was that of just another individual opinion, not a collective of opinions. -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From KerryA.Webb at act.gov.au Thu May 12 14:28:09 2005 From: KerryA.Webb at act.gov.au (Webb, KerryA) Date: Thu May 12 14:28:20 2005 Subject: [LINK] Wikipedia popularity Message-ID: <6728FC12ECED9547862D3B4261FBCE00F2179C@cal067.act.gov.au> Craig wrote: > > On Thu, May 12, 2005 at 01:28:23PM +1000, > rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > > > i'm more inclined to trust the internet, including wikipedia, and > > > bloggers - not as individuals, but as a collective. > > > > Would this be the same collective which still firmly believes that > > Multnomah County in Oregon once advertised for Vulcan interpreters? > > no, it would be the "collective" that consists of me reading > a bunch of stuff from a variety of sources and making up my own mind > based on what i find to be the most or the least credible. > Unfortunately, this is not the way that people in the real world (tm) operate. A student looking for information at the last minute isn't likely to read a bunch of stuff, nor is the newcomer to the Web likely to click on a link to follow a discussion about the rights and wrongs of what's been printed on a particular issue. > IMO, this is a far better method than just believing the > first (or most prominent or most common or most allegedly-"reputable" > source) thing that you read. > Agreed, but who's going to tell the masses about this better method? Wikipedia should come with large warning stickers - but who reads them, anyway? Kerry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If you are not the intended recipient: Please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From rick at praxis.com.au Thu May 12 14:56:19 2005 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Thu May 12 14:56:33 2005 Subject: [LINK] Correction In-Reply-To: <20050512034610.WJOX8920.swebmail00.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> References: <20050512034610.WJOX8920.swebmail00.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> Message-ID: <4282E1F3.3050501@praxis.com.au> rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > Klingon speakers, not Vulcan, was the source of the now-ineradicable urban legend ... But how can I trust this urban legend? What is your source? To go further ... are you really RC or perhaps an imposter? Am I really rickw? I could be anyone playing with an ASCII text editor :) cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services People who enjoy eating sausage and obey the law should not watch either being made. -- Otto von Bismarck From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Thu May 12 15:07:36 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Thu May 12 15:07:41 2005 Subject: [LINK] Wikipedia popularity Message-ID: <20050512050736.WKUC8920.swebmail00.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> > From: Craig Sanders > Date: 12/05/2005 14:20:06 > To: rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au > CC: link@anu.edu.au > Subject: Re: Re: [LINK] Wikipedia popularity > > On Thu, May 12, 2005 at 01:28:23PM +1000, rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > > > i'm more inclined to trust the internet, including wikipedia, and > > > bloggers - not as individuals, but as a collective. > > > > Would this be the same collective which still firmly believes that > > Multnomah County in Oregon once advertised for Vulcan interpreters? > > no, it would be the "collective" that consists of me reading a bunch of > stuff from a variety of sources and making up my own mind based on what > i find to be the most or the least credible. Yes, but that is exactly what all humans do, Craig. The only things which separate one from the next are: - the range of sources - the depth of the reader's ability to assess those sources - the degree to which the individual is aware of the bias. > > IMO, this is a far better method than just believing the first (or most > prominent or most common or most allegedly-"reputable" source) thing > that you read. Better, but still problematic. The question of "credibility" of any primary source is infinite regress. Your or I can only assess primary sources if we're equipped with a sufficient relevant background. > > i don't believe in "reputable sources". nobody with any sense does. Indeed. I entirely agree. > everything and everyone is biased in some way - the trick is to identify > the particular kind of bias and take it into account when you're reading > any article/story/opinion/whatever. > > i know this attitude is probably horrifying or at least disturbing to > journalists - but, really, you've only got yourselves to blame. Why would it be? enough > journos (and papers and radio and tv shows) have proven themselves to be > worthless PR-republishing shills that it should come as no surprise that > nobody trusts what they say any more. some are, no doubt, still honest. > but they're in the minority and vanishing fast. :-) If the final output of the individual's assessment of the collective information is nothing more than this vague generalisation, surely you'd suspect that all the legwork was wasted? RC > > > craig > > PS: the example you gave was that of just another individual opinion, > not a collective of opinions. > > -- > craig sanders (part time cyborg) > This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au From cas at taz.net.au Thu May 12 18:38:53 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Thu May 12 18:37:12 2005 Subject: [LINK] Wikipedia popularity In-Reply-To: <6728FC12ECED9547862D3B4261FBCE00F2179C@cal067.act.gov.au> References: <6728FC12ECED9547862D3B4261FBCE00F2179C@cal067.act.gov.au> Message-ID: <20050512083852.GU18150@taz.net.au> On Thu, May 12, 2005 at 02:28:09PM +1000, Webb, KerryA wrote: > > no, it would be the "collective" that consists of me reading > > a bunch of stuff from a variety of sources and making up my own mind > > based on what i find to be the most or the least credible. > > Unfortunately, this is not the way that people in the real world (tm) > operate. i exist in the real world, i'm in the set labeled "people", and that's the way i operate. it is the way that *some* people operate. the world would be a better place if more people had these skills and bothered to use them. > A student looking for information at the last minute isn't likely to > read a bunch of stuff, nor is the newcomer to the Web likely to click on > a link to follow a discussion about the rights and wrongs of what's been > printed on a particular issue. then they have only themselves to blame for their own ignorance. > > IMO, this is a far better method than just believing the > > first (or most prominent or most common or most allegedly-"reputable" > > source) thing that you read. > > Agreed, but who's going to tell the masses about this better method? schools, for one. IMO, teaching a minimum level of cynicism AND the skills to identify and analyse bias and make up your own mind is a responsibility of schools, which most are shirking. and sure, some people will never learn it because they're just not capable, and some don't need to be taught it (although they'll benefit from a honing of their untutored skill), but the vast majority would really benefit from being taught that these skills and modes of perception and analysis exist and are useful. > Wikipedia should come with large warning stickers - but who reads > them, anyway? all information sources should come with huge warning stickers, but they don't - and yes, nobody would read them anyway. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From jbirch at multinode.com.au Thu May 12 20:10:05 2005 From: jbirch at multinode.com.au (Jim Birch) Date: Thu May 12 20:10:20 2005 Subject: [LINK] Wikipedia popularity In-Reply-To: <20050512083852.GU18150@taz.net.au> References: <6728FC12ECED9547862D3B4261FBCE00F2179C@cal067.act.gov.au> <20050512083852.GU18150@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <42832B7D.6030305@multinode.com.au> Hmmm. While very few things are completely known, the vast majority of entries in Wikipedia are about fairly uncontroversial subjects. Seriously, who has an major axe to grind on the diatonic scale, astronomical distance units or even the office of Archbishop of Canterbury. This broad field of accepted knowledge is where Wikipedia works brilliantly, for me anyway. And if I'm looking up a subject that gets people emotionally activated, turn up the BS detector, as per usual. Wikipedia is not going to be a good source where the divergent mobile opinions exist, but what is? It's not going to be the last word on the Palestinian conflict*, for example, but it can still be useful reading. The Wikipedia ethos and editing mechanisms are interesting reading, and help you to understand what you are getting, visit the site. * in the foreseable future. -- Jim Birch jbirch@multinode.com.au t: 04 1243 1243 ----- Why, you might wonder, would the United states Government be involved in secret negotiations with extraterrestrials? For the technology! We know that the Nazis had a deal worked out with the Grey aliens, probably the same deal that our government has with them today; you enslave and kill off most of the Earth's population for us and in exchange we'll give you futuristic technology today and you get to go on living as the turnkeys of "Concentration Camp Earth" once colonization has begun. --Jack Grimes, the head of the United Fascist Union. From brd at iimetro.com.au Thu May 12 21:35:25 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Thu May 12 21:35:36 2005 Subject: [LINK] Key Advantage of Open Source is Not Cost Savings Message-ID: <42833F7D.DBA48BD2@iimetro.com.au> Key Advantage of Open Source is Not Cost Savings Reduced dependence on software vendors appears more important than low cost Frank Scavo Computer Economics http://www.computereconomics.com/article.cfm?id=1043 Computer Economics recently conducted a survey of visitors to its website regarding the perceived advantages in the use of open source software. Although not a scientific sample, the results are nevertheless startling. As nearly everyone knows, open source software is a low cost alternative to proprietary software. For example, the open source Linux operating system is commonly seen as a low cost alternative to Microsoft?s Server 2003 operating system, or Sun?s version of Unix. The popularity of open source is seen in the fact that today the largest market share for web servers is held by the open source Apache system. One might think, therefore, that the key advantage of open source software is its low cost of ownership. But visitors to our website didn?t think so. Open Source Does Have Advantages Our survey offered respondents a choice of five advantages for open source. Lower total cost of ownership Reduced dependence on software vendors Easier to customize Higher level of security Do not see a significant advantage ... etc etc -- "The prince wants your daughter for his wife." "Well, tell him his wife can't have her." -- Blackadder III Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From rick at praxis.com.au Thu May 12 23:27:55 2005 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Thu May 12 23:28:27 2005 Subject: [LINK] Mozilla Browser: Critical Security Issues - Security Upgrade Available In-Reply-To: <42809467.6040305@melbpc.org.au> References: <42809467.6040305@melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <428359DB.8010004@praxis.com.au> Stephen Loosley contributed: > ** Mozilla Firefox Browser Security ** > : > Exploits aim for Firefox holes > Staff writers > MAY 10, 2005 > > > > > TWO critical and unpatched vulnerabilities in the open-source Firefox > web browser have quickly attracted code designed to exploit the flaws. Security Update to Firefox Now Available see cheers rickws -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services People who enjoy eating sausage and obey the law should not watch either being made. -- Otto von Bismarck From lannet at lannet.com.au Fri May 13 07:54:29 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Fri May 13 07:54:42 2005 Subject: [LINK] Correction In-Reply-To: <4282E1F3.3050501@praxis.com.au> References: <20050512034610.WJOX8920.swebmail00.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <4282E1F3.3050501@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <4283D095.1070904@lannet.com.au> Rick Welykochy wrote: > rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > >> Klingon speakers, not Vulcan, was the source of the now-ineradicable >> urban legend ... > > > But how can I trust this urban legend? What is your source? > To go further ... are you really RC or perhaps an imposter? > Am I really rickw? I could be anyone playing with an ASCII > text editor :) I've always had a nagging question about you, Rick :) -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From rick at praxis.com.au Fri May 13 11:07:57 2005 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Fri May 13 11:08:09 2005 Subject: [LINK] Mozilla Browser: Critical Security Issues - Security Upgrade Available In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20050513080310.01e06e28@popa.melbpc.org.au> References: <42809467.6040305@melbpc.org.au> <428359DB.8010004@praxis.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050513080310.01e06e28@popa.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <4283FDED.5080204@praxis.com.au> Jan Whitaker wrote: > > Hi, Rick. I don't see anything about security update on that page. Can > you be more specific? First, look on the home page in the Announcements. The first item mentions the security fix. If you look here you'll see that FF 1.0.4 is indeed the security release. All you have to do is download FF 1.0.4 -- that is the patched release. It is confusing, isn't it? The download page should clearly state that 1.0.4 is the security fix. (Copying to LINK) cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services People who enjoy eating sausage and obey the law should not watch either being made. -- Otto von Bismarck From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Fri May 13 11:47:05 2005 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Fri May 13 11:47:16 2005 Subject: [LINK] Paper gets thumbs up vote Message-ID: <8e9f51ebdb63d74b27e7beddeaf33bcb@tony-barry.emu.id.au> > Paper gets thumbs up vote > The immediate future of a secure electronic voting system thatpeople > trust > lies not with gee-whiz technologies but old-fashionedpaper-backed > systems. > http://newsletters.fairfax.com.au/cgi-bin16/DM/y/empi0Owiki0JhK0B7sU0E5 > phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From link at todd.inoz.com Fri May 13 11:59:51 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Fri May 13 12:04:33 2005 Subject: [LINK] Mozilla Browser: Critical Security Issues In-Reply-To: <42809467.6040305@melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050513115655.01fcd8d8@pop> >Internet security firm Secunia rated the problems as "extremely >critical", saying that code to exploit the flaws had been made publicly >available. Um ... >In the absence of a permanent fix, Mozilla has recommended a number of >work-around measures, including disabling Java script functionality Well don't we all do that anyway, unless we have to turn it on for a trusted site? I mean I can do anything in Javascript! Must send a suggestion to Firefox developers to include a list of trusted sites and options to allow Javascript and Java to run only for those sites to save turning it on and off all the time. >and the "Allow web sites to install software" option. MY GOD! WHO turns that on! I mean unless you are in a private network with no access to the outside world at all and using the browser as a User interface to your server network and hence update software using this method, one is INSANE to turn it on! >Both features are >found in the "Web Features" area of Firefox's options menu. And BOTH are OFF the moment I install any browser. Except I can't seem to turn Javascript off in IE?? >"Users who have added other extensions or theme sites to the software >installation whitelist should remove them until a fixed version of >Firefox is available," the Mozilla advisory says. Doesn't sound like it's specifically a Firefox "flaw" as such, more a trying to allow the greatest flexibility, but people are stupid. From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Fri May 13 12:30:14 2005 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Fri May 13 12:30:31 2005 Subject: [LINK] The telecommunications and media revolution Message-ID: The telecommunications and media revolution Speech by Australian Competition and Consumer Commission chair, Graeme Samuel http://www.apo.org.au/webboard/results.chtml?filename_num=01132 phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From marghanita at ramin.com.au Fri May 13 12:55:00 2005 From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz) Date: Fri May 13 12:52:28 2005 Subject: [LINK] Paper gets thumbs up vote In-Reply-To: <8e9f51ebdb63d74b27e7beddeaf33bcb@tony-barry.emu.id.au> References: <8e9f51ebdb63d74b27e7beddeaf33bcb@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Message-ID: <42841704.9090705@ramin.com.au> I was trying to find whether voting was up or down at the last election but found this instead: Youth Electoral Study - Report 1: Enrolment and Voting http://www.aec.gov.au/_content/what/publications/research_papers/youth_study_1/page03.htm > Key Points: > > * Parents are regarded by the students as the most important source of information about voting, followed by TV and newspapers. > * Yet television and newspapers are regarded with skepticism > * Church and other religious groups are the least important source of information about voting. > * School teachers are a moderate source of information about voting for the students > * the internet has little impact as an information source on voting for students > Key Points: > > * Young people do not trust politicians > * Politicians are seen as liars and promise-breakers > * Only about one half of the students agreed that parliamentarians could be trusted to do what is right for the country, with males more "trusting" than females. > * Only one-fourth agreed that parliamentarians are honest, with males more likely to agree than females. > * About one-third of the student agreed that parliamentarians were smart and knew what they were doing when running the government. Antony Barry wrote: > > >> Paper gets thumbs up vote >> The immediate future of a secure electronic voting system thatpeople >> trust >> lies not with gee-whiz technologies but old-fashionedpaper-backed >> systems. >> http://newsletters.fairfax.com.au/cgi-bin16/DM/y/empi0Owiki0JhK0B7sU0E5 >> > phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au > mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Marghanita da Cruz Director, Ramin Communications Pty Ltd http://www.ramin.com.au ABN 28-089-713-084 Chair ACS Governance of ICT Committee http://www.acs.org.au/governance Telephone: 0414-869202 mailto:marghanita@ramin.com.au From pjchen at optusnet.com.au Fri May 13 13:04:06 2005 From: pjchen at optusnet.com.au (Peter Chen) Date: Fri May 13 13:04:09 2005 Subject: [LINK] Philosophy on the internet program archived Message-ID: <200505130304.j4D343ou003307@mail25.syd.optusnet.com.au> Latrobe University Philosophy Colloquium "Philosophy on the Internet" program is now archived: http://www.subfm.org/philosophyontheinternet.htm From brendansweb at optusnet.com.au Fri May 13 13:20:54 2005 From: brendansweb at optusnet.com.au (Brendan Scott) Date: Fri May 13 13:20:54 2005 Subject: [LINK] Paper gets thumbs up vote In-Reply-To: <8e9f51ebdb63d74b27e7beddeaf33bcb@tony-barry.emu.id.au> References: <8e9f51ebdb63d74b27e7beddeaf33bcb@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Message-ID: <42841D16.8010201@optusnet.com.au> Antony Barry wrote: > > >> Paper gets thumbs up vote >> The immediate future of a secure electronic voting system thatpeople >> trust >> lies not with gee-whiz technologies but old-fashionedpaper-backed >> systems. >> http://newsletters.fairfax.com.au/cgi-bin16/DM/y/empi0Owiki0JhK0B7sU0E5 ha. I read "lies" as a noun From rick at praxis.com.au Sat May 14 11:36:09 2005 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Sat May 14 11:36:26 2005 Subject: [LINK] The Daemon, the GNU and the Penguin - by Peter Salus Message-ID: <42855609.4000005@praxis.com.au> For those Linkers who might be interested in the history of the open source business model, Peter Salus is publishing his book entitled "The Daemon, the GNU and the Penguin" by installment on the Interweb at the groklaw website. So far, eight chapters are available: cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services People who enjoy eating sausage and obey the law should not watch either being made. -- Otto von Bismarck From rick at praxis.com.au Sat May 14 11:40:52 2005 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Sat May 14 11:41:05 2005 Subject: [LINK] Subscription-based Windows fix-it service lanuched by MS Message-ID: <42855724.8030409@praxis.com.au> It's not news to Microsoft that many, if not most, average Windows users have gripes about their PC experiences. In response, the software company is unveiling on Friday a new subscription-based computer fix-it service, aimed at automatically patching security holes, blocking viruses and spyware, and generally automating the chores of maintaining a computer's health. Dubbed Windows OneCare, the service will draw in part on existing tools like the company's anti-spyware software, as well as on basic PC management functions inside Windows. But it will add a more powerful firewall, ongoing antivirus protection, and the right to get a live support person on the phone without paying extra, the company said. Hmmm ... buy the OS, then buy a subscription service for perpetuity to keep it running. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services People who enjoy eating sausage and obey the law should not watch either being made. -- Otto von Bismarck From brd at iimetro.com.au Sat May 14 15:25:52 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Sat May 14 15:27:17 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education Message-ID: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> The real roadblocks to Linux in education By Con Zymaris Special to ZDNet 13 May 2005 http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/0,2000061733,39191668,00.htm In this issue of Industry Insider, Con Zymaris, our guest columnist from Open Source Industry Australia, describes the major barriers for Linux in the education system. commentary: Linux and open source software have a problem in Australia's education sector. And that problem has nothing to do with the value-for-money or fitness--for-purpose of the software. It has everything to do with fighting an uphill battle against entrenched ideology and frightened government bureaucrats. A recent report published by the UK government shows how adopting Linux and other open-source solutions could save education possibly tens of millions of pounds every year. The UK government's ICT agency, British Educational Communications and Technology Association, suggested that schools could slash their total computer costs by up to 50 percent if they "stopped buying, operating and supporting products from the world's largest software company". Incredible and sobering information. But what does this mean in the Australian context? Will we see Australia's state departments of education suddenly jump at the chance to save hundreds of millions in computer system costs? Not likely. But why? The answers lie in intimidation and trepidation. In simple terns, fear and lack of vision. Here's how it works. Most government primary and secondary schools don't care about saving costs by using cheaper alternatives. You see, they effectively pay nothing for their proprietary software -- the schools' owners, the respective Departments of Education do. And the mandarins therein don't like anything that rocks the boat, and are thus greatly threatened by Free and Open Source Software (FOSS). Nothing rocks an ICT boat like FOSS does. Which is why you find that in almost all circumstances, the Departments of Education in each state are also the most pro-Microsoft. I've been trying for over two years to make headway with some of them. They tell me that they are scared of doing anything which will upset Microsoft. Yes ... you read that right. The representatives of our elected government are scared of displeasing a vendor! If these departments suddenly stopped paying for proprietary software and switched to FOSS, the schools know they won't reap any of the purported savings. So, why would schools bother with trialling FOSS? Where's the incentive? Additionally, teachers also know that they will need to learn a whole swag of new software, with minimal time and support. Teachers' time and stress levels are at a premium already. Without support from the powers that be, this makes migration away from "the world's largest software company" a hard and thankless task. The upshot of all this is that every report commending the advantages of FOSS for the education sector falls on deaf, disinterested and frightened ears. This means that unless there is action from the absolute top, there will never be any action. Period. This is why organisations like Open Source Industry Australia and Linux Australia are talking to [or trying to, at least] each state's Minister of Education, as well as their opposite numbers. We want the incredible waste of money to be stopped right at the top. And if those discussions don't succeed, then it's time for the talk shows and mainstream newspapers. I'm sure average Australians would love to learn how Linux and open source can save them -- as taxpayers -- hundreds of millions in software costs ... money which can be spent on something useful for a change. Our schools, teachers and students deserve as much. biography Con Zymaris is a Director of Open Source Industry Australia. -- Quite frankly, teachers are the only profession that teach our children. -- Dan Quayle Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From stil at stilgherrian.com Sat May 14 15:32:47 2005 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Sat May 14 15:33:03 2005 Subject: [LINK] Subscription-based Windows fix-it service lanuched by MS In-Reply-To: <42855724.8030409@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: On 14/5/05 11:40 AM, "Rick Welykochy" wrote: > Hmmm ... buy the OS, then buy a subscription service for perpetuity > to keep it running. Gee, just like buying a car, and then having to keep paying for oil changes, tyres and other maintenance. *shrugs* Or just like Red Hat selling you Red Hat Enterprise Linux and then wanting you subscribe to the Red Hat Network to get software updates. As I see it, the following facts are NOT all that interesting: * A business is attempting to establish an on-going billing relationship with customers. Many if not most businesses do that, because it's easier to sell more things to the same customer than to create a new customer -- especially when you've already sold your product to half the world. Gawd, even your dentist does it. * That it's Microsoft. They're just a business. Sure, a big mother of a business that a lot of people don't like. But they're just a business. What IS interesting is this: * That Microsoft is combining into this service a lot of different things that are normally provided by third parties -- anti-virus, anti-spyware, telephone support. While Microsoft the Behemoth may sell everyone the OS, there's an enormous number of businesses large and small who feed off this -- big players like Symantec on anti-virus to a million little IT firms doing support. While people can still choose to get these things from whoever they want, Microsoft has an enormous advantage because they can promote their service directly from within the operating system. Remember the Browser Wars? That said, initially this will only be targeted at big business. So the little IT consulting firms probably shouldn't be worried just yet. And I don't think this will make a big impact on computer security. If so many people don't have anti-virus software now, when it's easy to find, they're probably not going to buy it just because it has a Microsoft label. Stil Entropy requires no maintenance. -- Stilgherrian Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia. ABN 25 231 641 421 mobile 0407 623 600 (international +61 407 623 600) fax 02 9516 5630 (international +61 2 9516 5630) From rick at praxis.com.au Sun May 15 00:58:45 2005 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Sun May 15 00:59:05 2005 Subject: [LINK] Subscription-based Windows fix-it service lanuched by MS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42861225.2090104@praxis.com.au> Stilgherrian wrote: > On 14/5/05 11:40 AM, "Rick Welykochy" wrote: > >>Hmmm ... buy the OS, then buy a subscription service for perpetuity >>to keep it running. > Entropy requires no maintenance. Incorrectly written and deployed software does. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services People who enjoy eating sausage and obey the law should not watch either being made. -- Otto von Bismarck From stephen at melbpc.org.au Sun May 15 04:35:46 2005 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley) Date: Sun May 15 04:36:10 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> Hello Con, Bernard and Link An invitation and an introduction for you Con, seeing as you're rightfully spoken of as an expert in the media and as Bernard has kindly forwarded your ZDNet article to the well respected Link email list run by Tony Barry. I've included both your recent posts here, from different lists, wondering Con if you would like to expand / clarify and also consider joining Link? Con Zymaris wrote: > On Fri, May 13, 2005 at 05:49:22PM +1000, Robert Timmer-Arends wrote: > >>> And before GW-BASIC there was MS-BASIC. >>> >>> And before MS-BASIC there was, well, let's see here... >> >> >>There was Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code, or BASIC.. > > > Eventually, yes. > > But well before MS-BASIC, there were a plethora of other BASICs. Thus > providing Bill Gates with the source code listings he needed to start a > company. > > >> in 1964 to teach uni/college students programming, derived from FORTRAN. >> It was originally an interpretted language and I don't think much >> application outside of teaching institutions until micros came along and >> someone decided it was the ideal language for them > > > It was simple enough to fit into 4K EPROMS, which is what early Micros > had. > > Only FORTH could compete in terms of compact interpreter size. And FORTH, > unlike C, really is high-level assembler, thus not appropriate for mortal > coding minds. > > Cheers, > > Con Zymaris, Convenor > Open Source Victoria > http://www.osv.org.au/ Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > The real roadblocks to Linux in education > By Con Zymaris > Special to ZDNet > 13 May 2005 > http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/0,2000061733,39191668,00.htm > > In this issue of Industry Insider, Con Zymaris, our guest columnist from > Open Source Industry Australia, describes the major barriers for Linux > in the education system. > > commentary: Linux and open source software have a problem in Australia's > education sector. > > > And that problem has nothing to do with the value-for-money or > fitness--for-purpose of the software. It has everything to do with > fighting an uphill battle against entrenched ideology and frightened > government bureaucrats. > > A recent report > > published by the UK government shows how adopting Linux and other > open-source solutions could save education possibly tens of millions of > pounds every year. > > The UK government's ICT agency, British Educational Communications and > Technology Association, suggested that schools could slash their total > computer costs by up to 50 percent if they "stopped buying, operating > and supporting products from the world's largest software company". > Incredible and sobering information. > > But what does this mean in the Australian context? Will we see > Australia's state departments of education suddenly jump at the chance > to save hundreds of millions in computer system costs? > > Not likely. But why? The answers lie in intimidation and trepidation. In > simple terns, fear and lack of vision. > > Here's how it works. Most government primary and secondary schools don't > care about saving costs by using cheaper alternatives. You see, they > effectively pay nothing for their proprietary software -- the schools' > owners, the respective Departments of Education do. And the mandarins > therein don't like anything that rocks the boat, and are thus greatly > threatened by Free and Open Source Software (FOSS). Nothing rocks an ICT > boat like FOSS does. > > Which is why you find that in almost all circumstances, the Departments > of Education in each state are also the most pro-Microsoft. I've been > trying for over two years to make headway with some of them. They tell > me that they are scared of doing anything which will upset Microsoft. > > Yes ... you read that right. The representatives of our elected > government are scared of displeasing a vendor! > > If these departments suddenly stopped paying for proprietary software > and switched to FOSS, the schools know they won't reap any of the > purported savings. So, why would schools bother with trialling FOSS? > Where's the incentive? > > Additionally, teachers also know that they will need to learn a whole > swag of new software, with minimal time and support. Teachers' time and > stress levels are at a premium already. Without support from the powers > that be, this makes migration away from "the world's largest software > company" a hard and thankless task. > > The upshot of all this is that every report commending the advantages of > FOSS for the education sector falls on deaf, disinterested and > frightened ears. This means that unless there is action from the > absolute top, there will never be any action. Period. > > This is why organisations like Open Source Industry Australia and Linux > Australia are talking to [or trying to, at least] each state's Minister > of Education, as well as their opposite numbers. > > We want the incredible waste of money to be stopped right at the top. > And if those discussions don't succeed, then it's time for the talk > shows and mainstream newspapers. > > I'm sure average Australians would love to learn how Linux and open > source can save them -- as taxpayers -- hundreds of millions in software > costs ... money which can be spent on something useful for a change. Our > schools, teachers and students deserve as much. > > biography > Con Zymaris is a Director of Open Source Industry Australia. > > -- > Quite frankly, teachers are the only profession that teach our children. > -- Dan Quayle > > Regards > brd > > Bernard Robertson-Dunn > Sydney Australia > brd@iimetro.com.au > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > Cheers Con, Bernard and all .. Stephen Loosley Melbourne, Australia From lannet at lannet.com.au Sun May 15 08:21:36 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Sun May 15 08:21:49 2005 Subject: [LINK] Subscription-based Windows fix-it service lanuched by MS In-Reply-To: <42855724.8030409@praxis.com.au> References: <42855724.8030409@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <428679F0.3090309@lannet.com.au> Rick Welykochy wrote: > > > > It's not news to Microsoft that many, if not most, average > Windows users have gripes about their PC experiences. > > In response, the software company is unveiling on Friday a > new subscription-based computer fix-it service, aimed at > automatically patching security holes, blocking viruses > and spyware, and generally automating the chores of maintaining > a computer's health. > > Dubbed Windows OneCare, the service will draw in part on > existing tools like the company's anti-spyware software, as > well as on basic PC management functions inside Windows. But > it will add a more powerful firewall, ongoing antivirus protection, > and the right to get a live support person on the phone without > paying extra, the company said. > > > Hmmm ... buy the OS, then buy a subscription service for perpetuity > to keep it running. 1. Sell a buggy OS 2. Sell a fixit 3. Profit...twice Ya just gotta luv their business model. > > > cheers > rickw > > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From lannet at lannet.com.au Sun May 15 08:28:02 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Sun May 15 08:28:17 2005 Subject: [LINK] Subscription-based Windows fix-it service lanuched by MS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42867B72.3020700@lannet.com.au> Stilgherrian wrote: > On 14/5/05 11:40 AM, "Rick Welykochy" wrote: > >>Hmmm ... buy the OS, then buy a subscription service for perpetuity >>to keep it running. > > > Gee, just like buying a car, and then having to keep paying for oil changes, > tyres and other maintenance. *shrugs* No, more like buying a car and then paying for warranty fixes. > > Or just like Red Hat selling you Red Hat Enterprise Linux and then wanting > you subscribe to the Red Hat Network to get software updates. ...and for support in other things. > > As I see it, the following facts are NOT all that interesting: > > * A business is attempting to establish an on-going billing > relationship with customers. Many if not most businesses do > that, because it's easier to sell more things to the same > customer than to create a new customer -- especially when > you've already sold your product to half the world. Not when you're selling things that shouldn't be necessary in the first place. > What IS interesting is this: > > * That Microsoft is combining into this service a lot of > different things that are normally provided by third > parties -- anti-virus, anti-spyware, telephone support. Yep, and put the third party players out of business; something for which M$ are a convicted monopolist. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From rw at firstpr.com.au Sun May 15 22:06:49 2005 From: rw at firstpr.com.au (Robin Whittle) Date: Sun May 15 22:07:54 2005 Subject: [LINK] Stopping "backscatter" emails - to addresses used by malware Message-ID: <42873B59.90102@firstpr.com.au> My main mailserver doesn't send any reject messages if a message contains a virus (actually anything potentially executable as determined by Anomy Sanitizer). It rejects messages sent to non-existent user accounts - the SMTP transaction never gets very far at all. (The server trying to deliver the message to my main server will probably generate a "Message undeliverable" message) My backup mailserver, however, does generate "Message undeliverable" messages when it is handed a message, and tries to send it to a non-existent account on the main mailserver. There's a lot of such messages - especially since some or many spammers or malware try to send the message to a second or lower priority server in the domain's DNS. The backup server dutifully tries to send the "Message undeliverable" message to the address in the "From:" line of the original email. With both spam and viruses, this is often a real account somewhere - of a person who has nothing to do with the spam or malware. So my server is generating large quantities of backscatter emails. Some of them get rejected (since the new backup server in San Francisco, at http://www.servepath.com, is at an IP address which used to be used by a spammer, and the address has only just been removed from the MAPS RBL) and my backup server sometimes tries repeatedly to resend them . . . but that's another story. Here is the question: In order to stop my servers from contributing to this backscatter rot, I would have to somehow stop my backup mailserver (Postfix on FreeBSD) from generating "Message undeliverable messages". (Also, I could make the main server accept all messages to invalid email accounts, but this would add to traffic, and it is on a 20 cents a megabyte hyper-reliable Telstra Internet modem service). Is this a reasonable or allowable thing to do, considering that the new arrangement would silently accept, and fail to deliver to a human, messages from real people who had accidentally typed in the wrong email address? - Robin http://www.firstpr.com.au http://astroneu.com From stephen at melbpc.org.au Mon May 16 02:25:09 2005 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley) Date: Mon May 16 02:25:27 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> Con Zymaris wrote: > On Sun, May 15, 2005 at 04:35:46AM +1000, Stephen Loosley wrote: > >> Con if you would like to expand / clarify and also consider joining Link? > > I've just checked the message volumes on LINK and it looks digestible, > so if you think I can contribute, I'm more than happy to join in. A quick > scan of the posters shows up some names that I've known going back > more than 20 years; a luminary who's who of Australian ICT movers. ;-) > > As for expanding on the ZDNet op-ed piece, I'll do one better - I'll provide > the source document/whitepaper which provides some background: > > > > Contrast this with say PCs, laptops, and printers. The Departments > of Education go to open and fiercely competitive tender for all such > purchases. Why not software? Why hand the business to Microsoft > on a plate, with no competition? This is plain wrong. Cheers, Con Zymaris Great you've joined Link, Con. And, although one might agree completely in terms of free-trade & democracy arguments, imho, one must also include the human factor. For example, here's another post from a teacher who shall remain anonymous and from another list. You tell me .. what incentive is there for normal school Network Managers to find the time required for open source systems in the somewhat IT hostile school environment? All education Sys Admins I know teach at least half time. >> It continues to amaze me how computer phobic many of the teachers are >> or the lack of ability to learn how to use or understand the very basics of >> how to use a computer. >> >> In my school (state funded) we have the best of everything through good >> leadership and smart use of our budget. None of the computers are over 3 >> years old, we run the latest of every program, we have access to the best >> on line e-learning programs and content and all our installations and >> upgrades are all automated. >> >> Yet the largest need for our technicians is due to user errors on computers >> by staff. >> >> The first is they cannot remember their passwords or log on identification. >> Many can not even remember there email address. There are two prompts >> in log in which have separate user codes but the same password. One for >> the network and one for edumail. The majority seem to shudder when the >> menu comes up & cannot distinguish between edumail & network prompts -- Cheers all .. Stephen Loosley Melbourne, Australia From lannet at lannet.com.au Mon May 16 05:38:58 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Mon May 16 05:39:20 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <4287A552.6040208@lannet.com.au> I have been convinced for many years that in a school environment, esp a comp lab, you need a thin client approach. I have a private school client who has a mix of Windows and Linux who has a part time sysadmin who knows a little about Windows and nothing about Linux and not much about IT concepts. It still doesn't stop him sticking his fingers where he shouldn't :( Stephen Loosley wrote: > Con Zymaris wrote: > >> On Sun, May 15, 2005 at 04:35:46AM +1000, Stephen Loosley wrote: >> >>> Con if you would like to expand / clarify and also consider joining >>> Link? >> >> >> I've just checked the message volumes on LINK and it looks digestible, >> so if you think I can contribute, I'm more than happy to join in. A quick >> scan of the posters shows up some names that I've known going back >> more than 20 years; a luminary who's who of Australian ICT movers. ;-) >> >> As for expanding on the ZDNet op-ed piece, I'll do one better - I'll >> provide >> the source document/whitepaper which provides some background: >> >> >> >> >> Contrast this with say PCs, laptops, and printers. The Departments >> of Education go to open and fiercely competitive tender for all such >> purchases. Why not software? Why hand the business to Microsoft >> on a plate, with no competition? This is plain wrong. Cheers, Con Zymaris > > > > Great you've joined Link, Con. And, although one might agree completely > in terms of free-trade & democracy arguments, imho, one must also include > the human factor. For example, here's another post from a teacher who shall > remain anonymous and from another list. > > You tell me .. what incentive is there for normal school Network Managers > to find the time required for open source systems in the somewhat IT > hostile > school environment? All education Sys Admins I know teach at least half > time. > > >>> It continues to amaze me how computer phobic many of the teachers are >>> or the lack of ability to learn how to use or understand the very >>> basics of >>> how to use a computer. >>> >>> In my school (state funded) we have the best of everything through good >>> leadership and smart use of our budget. None of the computers are over 3 >>> years old, we run the latest of every program, we have access to the >>> best >>> on line e-learning programs and content and all our installations and >>> upgrades are all automated. >>> >>> Yet the largest need for our technicians is due to user errors on >>> computers >>> by staff. >>> >>> The first is they cannot remember their passwords or log on >>> identification. >>> Many can not even remember there email address. There are two prompts >>> in log in which have separate user codes but the same password. One for >>> the network and one for edumail. The majority seem to shudder when the >>> menu comes up & cannot distinguish between edumail & network prompts > > -- > > Cheers all .. > Stephen Loosley > Melbourne, Australia > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From brd at iimetro.com.au Mon May 16 06:47:34 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Mon May 16 06:48:10 2005 Subject: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft Message-ID: <4287B566.ED4D6184@iimetro.com.au> Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft John Naughton Sunday May 15, 2005 The Observer http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,6903,1483969,00.html Drive past any secondary school in the UK and you'll see an institution that is struggling. No: this is not a column about academic standards, dumbing down, bureaucracy, Ofsted or any of the other obsessions of the Daily Mail . In fact, many of these struggling schools are academically excellent. What they are having difficulty with is something much more mundane than teaching or learning. They are trying - and failing - to manage their IT systems. How come? Most British schools are hooked on networks that consist of hundreds of PCs running various flavours of the Windows operating system and Microsoft Office software. Now it is perfectly possible to run an effective Windows-based network, just as it is possible to dig your garden using a teaspoon - provided you employ a hundred gardeners to do the work. The problem is that keeping such a network up and running requires a great deal of technical support - the equivalent of three full-time trained technicians for an average secondary school. And upgrading the system to keep track of changes in Microsoft's operating systems is expensive. Basically it boils down to throwing out a third of your computers every three years and buying new machines that can run the latest version of Windows. Nathan Myrhvold, Bill Gates's former technology guru, used to joke that 'software is like a gas - it expands to fill the space available'. The programmer Martin Reiser put it better: 'software gets slower more quickly than hardware gets faster'. (In other words: 'Intel giveth, and Microsoft taketh away.') Although the corporate world complains about this virtual arms race, it generally pays up because it can afford to. But schools cannot - which is why when you talk to ICT co-ordinators in education you regularly hear phrases like 'running to keep still' and 'struggling to stay on top of it'. You hear stories about how difficult it is to recruit and retain IT support staff on the salaries schools can afford, about staff spending much of their time rebuilding crashed or vandalised PCs, about teachers who are contemptuous of the level of IT support, about up to a quarter of PCs being unavailable at any given moment, and about dissatisfaction with the Microsoft-supplier compa nies, which enjoy a semi-monopolistic hold on the education market. And you hear head teachers wondering what will happen when Longhorn - the much-delayed new version of Windows - arrives and renders most of their existing computers obsolete. The state of ICT in UK schools is a public scandal. In part, this is due to the fact that head teachers are expected to be chief information officers without being given any training or support. As a result they are easy meat for commercial companies touting Microsoft 'solutions' to their ICT problems. They fall for upfront discounts and wind up with systems they can't afford to support or upgrade. Only later do they realise that between 50 and 60 per cent of their annual IT budgets will have to go to keeping their discounted networks running. This last statistic comes from Becta (British Educational Communications and Technology Agency), which describes itself as 'the government's key partner in the strategic development and delivery of its information and communications technology and e-learning strategy' for schools. Until comparatively recently, Becta seemed to function mainly as a cheerleader for the proprietary status quo, effectively functioning as an agency for negotiating discounts from suppliers. But now, after a major shake-up and the installation of David Hargreaves as its chairman, Becta is finally waking up. On Friday, for example, it released the findings of its first comparative study into the savings and benefits enjoyed by the few schools in the UK that have switched to open source software. The report shows, for example, that these schools spend less than half of what their Microsoft-enthralled contemporaries have to fork out on IT support. Other benefits include lower expenditure on software licensing, and computers that have to be upgraded less frequently because they no longer dance to the beat of Microsoft's drum. The headline in the Times Educational Supplement said it all: 'Ditching Microsoft could save millions.' So it could. But if you want to see what's really possible, take a look at Orwell High School in Suffolk, which has abandoned the PC route altogether and instead runs a network based on open source software and IBM Blade servers. Orwell has 800-plus pupils and more than 200 networked screens and provides the kind of service to its students that only affluent companies can achieve. Head teachers of the world unite: you have nothing to lose but the Start button. -- Home computers are being called upon to perform many new functions, including the consumption of homework formerly eaten by the dog. -- Doug Larson Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From ivan.trundle at alia.org.au Mon May 16 07:21:07 2005 From: ivan.trundle at alia.org.au (Ivan Trundle) Date: Mon May 16 07:21:14 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <223BAAA4-13A6-451C-B8D4-4B5154ED978D@alia.org.au> On 16/05/2005, at 2:25 AM, Stephen Loosley wrote: >>> The first is they cannot remember their passwords or log on >>> identification. >>> Many can not even remember there email address... I can see why the teacher wished to remain anonymous. From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Mon May 16 07:54:12 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Mon May 16 07:54:19 2005 Subject: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft References: 13289022 Message-ID: <4287C504.6070500@ozemail.com.au> The school computers debate is impossible to resolve, because the starting point is nowhere in sight. Nobody's ever going to get a sensible decision about "what computers, what architecture, whose software" and so on, until someone's decided what the school computers are >for<. The old principle of IT is that if you want success in the project, you have to start with an understanding of the requirements. But I would wager tha among the huge numbers of policy documents, motherhood statements, and political promises, there is nothing so basic as a requirements document. As far as public schools are concerned, the only "requirements" are what? To enable the students to pass standardised computer skills tests. So there's a budget, the purpose of which is "buy stuff", and there's a list of suppliers, and there's lots of vague statements about using the Internet and grabbing Encarta as a substitute for research, and a requirement (imposed by business lobbies) that kids get tested for their ability to use Word, Excel and PowerPoint. A clear statement of policy and requirements would tell the world: - why computers are a requirement for education; - what specific purpose the computers in schools are meant to achieve; - how to measure performance against purpose; and finally - what systems, architecture, and software are required to fulfil the educational requirements. The triumph of Microsoft - and Apple in NSW schools, for that matter - is the result of ad-hocery driven by vendors, lobbies, and interest groups. The supply side has created a belief that spending $100 million (or whatever) on computers signals a government's "committment to education". Therefore the money gets allocated and spent. Glancing at the other thread, it seems pretty clear that the reason teachers are left out of the debate (both in terms of their training and their ability to contribute back to the discussion) is that today, *delivery* is the sole requirement of the classroom computer. Once it's been bought, shipped, and the money spent, it's served its purpose and proved that (a) politicians care and (b) (jurisdiction name) has the most advanced computer-based classrooms in the country. Since nobody actually knows what the students should do with the machines, nobody really cares if those machines are affordable, efficient, or supportable. So what about advocating a "requirements audit" and figure out what the hell we're doing with all this money in the first place? Richard Chirgwin Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: >Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft >John Naughton >Sunday May 15, 2005 >The Observer >http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,6903,1483969,00.html > >Drive past any secondary school in the UK and you'll see an institution >that is struggling. No: this is not a column about academic standards, >dumbing down, bureaucracy, Ofsted or any of the other obsessions of the >Daily Mail . >In fact, many of these struggling schools are academically excellent. >What they are having difficulty with is something much more mundane than >teaching or learning. They are trying - and failing - to manage their IT >systems. > >How come? Most British schools are hooked on networks that consist of >hundreds of PCs running various flavours of the Windows operating system >and Microsoft Office software. Now it is perfectly possible to run an >effective Windows-based network, just as it is possible to dig your >garden using a teaspoon - provided you employ a hundred gardeners to do >the work. > >The problem is that keeping such a network up and running requires a >great deal of technical support - the equivalent of three full-time >trained technicians for an average secondary school. And upgrading the >system to keep track of changes in Microsoft's operating systems is >expensive. Basically it boils down to throwing out a third of your >computers every three years and buying new machines that can run the >latest version of Windows. > >Nathan Myrhvold, Bill Gates's former technology guru, used to joke that >'software is like a gas - it expands to fill the space available'. The >programmer Martin Reiser put it better: 'software gets slower more >quickly than hardware gets faster'. (In other words: 'Intel giveth, and >Microsoft taketh away.') > >Although the corporate world complains about this virtual arms race, it >generally pays up because it can afford to. But schools cannot - which >is why when you talk to ICT co-ordinators in education you regularly >hear phrases like 'running to keep still' and 'struggling to stay on top >of it'. > >You hear stories about how difficult it is to recruit and retain IT >support staff on the salaries schools can afford, about staff spending >much of their time rebuilding crashed or vandalised PCs, about teachers >who are contemptuous of the level of IT support, about up to a quarter >of PCs being unavailable at any given moment, and about dissatisfaction >with the Microsoft-supplier compa nies, which enjoy a semi-monopolistic >hold on the education market. > >And you hear head teachers wondering what will happen when Longhorn - >the much-delayed new version of Windows - arrives and renders most of >their existing computers obsolete. The state of ICT in UK schools is a >public scandal. > >In part, this is due to the fact that head teachers are expected to be >chief information officers without being given any training or support. >As a result they are easy meat for commercial companies touting >Microsoft 'solutions' to their ICT problems. They fall for upfront >discounts and wind up with systems they can't afford to support or >upgrade. Only later do they realise that between 50 and 60 per cent of >their annual IT budgets will have to go to keeping their discounted >networks running. > >This last statistic comes from Becta (British Educational Communications >and Technology Agency), which describes itself as 'the government's key >partner in the strategic development and delivery of its information and >communications technology and e-learning strategy' for schools. Until >comparatively recently, Becta seemed to function mainly as a cheerleader >for the proprietary status quo, effectively functioning as an agency for >negotiating discounts from suppliers. But now, after a major shake-up >and the installation of David Hargreaves as its chairman, Becta is >finally waking up. > >On Friday, for example, it released the findings of its first >comparative study into the savings and benefits enjoyed by the few >schools in the UK that have switched to open source software. > >The report shows, for example, that these schools spend less than half >of what their Microsoft-enthralled contemporaries have to fork out on IT >support. Other benefits include lower expenditure on software licensing, >and computers that have to be upgraded less frequently because they no >longer dance to the beat of Microsoft's drum. The headline in the Times >Educational Supplement said it all: 'Ditching Microsoft could save >millions.' > >So it could. But if you want to see what's really possible, take a look >at Orwell High School in Suffolk, which has abandoned the PC route >altogether and instead runs a network based on open source software and >IBM Blade servers. Orwell has 800-plus pupils and more than 200 >networked screens and provides the kind of service to its students that >only affluent companies can achieve. Head teachers of the world unite: >you have nothing to lose but the Start button. > > > From cas at taz.net.au Mon May 16 08:12:21 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Mon May 16 08:10:54 2005 Subject: [LINK] Stopping "backscatter" emails - to addresses used by malware In-Reply-To: <42873B59.90102@firstpr.com.au> References: <42873B59.90102@firstpr.com.au> Message-ID: <20050515221221.GV18150@taz.net.au> On Sun, May 15, 2005 at 10:06:49PM +1000, Robin Whittle wrote: > My main mailserver doesn't send any reject messages if a message > contains a virus (actually anything potentially executable as > determined by Anomy Sanitizer). It rejects messages sent to > non-existent user accounts - the SMTP transaction never gets very far > at all. good. that's what it's supposed to do. > (The server trying to deliver the message to my main server > will probably generate a "Message undeliverable" message) if it's a real server, it will. if it's virus or spamware, it won't...which is one of the benefits of rejecting a message with a 5xx code rather than accept-and-bounce. > My backup mailserver, however, does generate "Message undeliverable" > messages when it is handed a message, and tries to send it to a > non-existent account on the main mailserver. 1. the easiest fix is to just get rid of the secondary MX records from your DNS. most people who THINK they need a backup MX don't. secondary MX are essentially obsolete now, and often cause more problems (e.g. backscatter) than they're supposed to solve - especially since they are targetted by spamware & viruses. backup/secondary MX are useful only in very specific and rare circumstances these days. you don't need one just to ensure delivery of normal SMTP mail. all smtp servers will retry delivery for several days (at least - it's a configurable option, and the default is usually 5 days). 2. if you have complete control over the backup MX then you MUST give it a list of valid recipient addresses, so that it knows to reject mail for unknown recipients. you also need to configure it with the same anti-spam, anti-virus, anti-relaying etc rules as the primary. 3. if you don't have control over your backup MX, then get rid of it. it is a hassle for you and a menace to other internet users. > In order to stop my servers from contributing to this backscatter rot, I > would have to somehow stop my backup mailserver (Postfix on FreeBSD) > from generating "Message undeliverable messages". (Also, I could make > the main server accept all messages to invalid email accounts, but this > would add to traffic, and it is on a 20 cents a megabyte hyper-reliable > Telstra Internet modem service). neither of these are good solutions. > Is this a reasonable or allowable thing to do, considering that the > new arrangement would silently accept, and fail to deliver to a human, > messages from real people who had accidentally typed in the wrong > email address? no. legit mail should be either delivered or bounced. it should not just vanish into a black hole. you have two main choices: 1. get rid of the backup MX. this is your best option. you will not notice ANY difference in mail delivery/reliability, and you will eliminate the backscatter source AND a lot of unneccessary maintainence work. 2. it's postfix, so it's easy enough to give it a relay_recipient_maps table. e.g. set up a cron job to scp or rsync your primary server's virtual table, aliases map, transport table, and local users list (extracted from /etc/passwd) to the secondary server. use these files as input to generate the relay_recipients_map. or, if you store your accounts & email addresses in LDAP, configure the backup MX as an LDAP slave. the method doesn't really matter, what matters is that the backup has a list of valid recipient addresses to accept mail for. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Mon May 16 08:32:34 2005 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Mon May 16 08:32:49 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education Message-ID: <449c1f5650dc64e9dd35f43f6b24220b@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Begin forwarded message: > From: link-bounces@anumail0.anu.edu.au > Date: 15 May 2005 10:28:31 AM > To: link-owner@anumail0.anu.edu.au > Subject: Auto-discard notification > > The attached message has been automatically discarded. > From: Con Zymaris > Date: 15 May 2005 10:28:22 AM > To: Stephen Loosley > Cc: Bernard Robertson-Dunn , Link > Subject: Re: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education > > > On Sun, May 15, 2005 at 04:35:46AM +1000, Stephen Loosley wrote: >> Hello Con, Bernard and Link >> > > Hiya Stephen. > >> An invitation and an introduction for you Con, seeing as you're >> rightfully >> spoken of as an expert in the media and as Bernard has kindly >> forwarded >> your ZDNet article to the well respected Link email list run by Tony >> Barry. >> I've included both your recent posts here, from different lists, >> wondering >> Con if you would like to expand / clarify and also consider joining >> Link? >> > > Ahh, I can just hear the groans in the chamber: "oh, not _that_ guy!" > ;-) > > I've just checked the message volumes on LINK and it looks digestible, > so > if you think I can contribute, I'm more than happy to join in. > > A quick scan of the posters shows up some names that I've known going > back > more than 20 years; a luminary who's who of Australian ICT movers. ;-) > > As for expanding on the ZDNet op-ed piece, I'll do one better - I'll > provide the source document/whitepaper which provides some background: > > > http://www.cybersource.com.au/users/conz/ > reducing_computer_technology_costs_in_australian_state_education.pdf > > This document has already been sent to every Education and/or Training > Minister (state, federal, territory). You can trust that I will be > pursuing responses vigorously. > > Some of you would know that in most states, FOSS solutions for > public-sector Education are not allowed to compete with Microsoft > solutions in open and fair contest. > > By this, I mean that the state Departments of Education will only > solicit > business solutions for most system and application software from one > vendor only: Microsoft. > > Contrast this with say PCs, laptops, and printers. The Departments of > Education go to open and fiercely competitive tender for all such > purchases. Why not software? Why hand the business to Microsoft on a > plate, with no competition? This is plain wrong. > > I believe that vendors and solution providers who work with FOSS > need to do something something about this. > > There may be a case for invoking the TRADE PRACTICES ACT 1974 - SECT > 45DA, > or 'Secondary boycotts for the purpose of causing substantial > lessening of > competition'. > > More information available here: > > > http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/tpa1974149/ > s45da.html > (thanks to djk@cyber for spotting this) > > This may be something we need to raise with the ACCC. > > Cheers, > > Con Zymaris > > - CEO, Cybersource Pty. Ltd. > - Director, Open Source Industry Australia, Limited. > - Convenor, Open Source Victoria (A Government-funded industry > cluster.) > _______________________________________________________________________ > ____ > Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, > Australia > Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions > Company > Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 > > > > > phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From conz at cyber.com.au Mon May 16 08:33:16 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Mon May 16 08:33:25 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <20050515223316.GN19396@cyber.com.au> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 02:25:09AM +1000, Stephen Loosley wrote: > > > >Contrast this with say PCs, laptops, and printers. The Departments > >of Education go to open and fiercely competitive tender for all such > >purchases. Why not software? Why hand the business to Microsoft > >on a plate, with no competition? This is plain wrong. Cheers, Con Zymaris > > Great you've joined Link, Con. And, although one might agree completely > in terms of free-trade & democracy arguments, imho, one must also include > the human factor. For example, here's another post from a teacher who shall > remain anonymous and from another list. > > You tell me .. what incentive is there for normal school Network Managers > to find the time required for open source systems in the somewhat IT hostile > school environment? All education Sys Admins I know teach at least half > time. I agree completely. Which is why I wrote: If these departments suddenly stopped paying for proprietary software and switched to FOSS, the schools know they won't reap any of the purported savings. So, why would schools bother with trialling FOSS? Where's the incentive? Additionally, teachers also know that they will need to learn a whole swag of new software, with minimal time and support. Teachers' time and stress levels are at a premium already. Without support from the powers that be, this makes migration away from "the world's largest software company" a hard and thankless task. The upshot of all this is that every report commending the advantages of FOSS for the education sector falls on deaf, disinterested and frightened ears. This means that unless there is action from the absolute top, there will never be any action. Period. Also consider the following. By my analysis and experience (I've used Windows since version 2.0 and Linux since 1993), and by reports published[1], Linux requires 75% _less_ manpower for daily operational use and support. This will help reduce the amount of time teachers spend fighting Windows scrub fires and allow them more time for everything else. [1] http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2907876,00.html "In the survey, Linux admin salaries were slightly higher than Windows admins, with Linux at $71,400 per admin, and Windows at $68,500 per admin. But Linux admins took care of an average of 44 servers and Windows admins an average of 10. So the salary per processing unit was Linux, $12,010, and Windows, $52,060." > > >>It continues to amaze me how computer phobic many of the teachers are > >>or the lack of ability to learn how to use or understand the very basics > >>of > >>how to use a computer. > >> > >>In my school (state funded) we have the best of everything through good > >>leadership and smart use of our budget. None of the computers are over 3 > >>years old, we run the latest of every program, we have access to the best > >>on line e-learning programs and content and all our installations and > >>upgrades are all automated. > >> > >>Yet the largest need for our technicians is due to user errors on > >>computers > >>by staff. > >> > >>The first is they cannot remember their passwords or log on > >>identification. > >>Many can not even remember there email address. There are two prompts > >>in log in which have separate user codes but the same password. One for > >>the network and one for edumail. The majority seem to shudder when the > >>menu comes up & cannot distinguish between edumail & network prompts Here's the point. You _can_ produce 'dumbed down' Linux terminals which accomplish everything that such (and most) schools need for 90% of their desktop needs. You can't do this with Windows. This will greatly reduce the cost _and_ complexity of their computing infrastructure. Money saved can be used for teacher professional development in IT. The savings are immense - download and read that PDF I linked to in my previous email. There is a short version to this story; every possible hurdle with switching mostly to Linux/FOSS and saving hundreds of millions in costs, _can_ be overcome. Just ask me how. -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From cas at taz.net.au Mon May 16 08:41:18 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Mon May 16 08:39:24 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <20050515224118.GW18150@taz.net.au> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 02:25:09AM +1000, Stephen Loosley wrote: > You tell me .. what incentive is there for normal school Network > Managers to find the time required for open source systems in the > somewhat IT hostile school environment? the fact that open source systems will be basically immune to viruses, AND immune to the kids' malicious fiddling with them will result in a net surplus of time, no matter how much they need to learn. they will no longer have to spend long hours rebuilding trashed or infected machines, or recovering important data from them. further time savings will come from the fact that once the network is set up correctly and working, it will stay working. it won't stop or mysteriously degrade for no reason. if there is a problem, it will have a specific cause for which there is a specific fix (which doesn't involve "reboot and pray that it gets better"). the best thing about *nix is that IT is a *science*, not black-magic. it follows logical rules and results are reproducible. > All education Sys Admins I know teach at least half time. almost all that i know teach 95+% of the time, and are expected to be system admin / computer expert in their "spare" time, with no training, and no resources. if they're lucky, they're given a few hours a week to do it in. they are typically the maths or science teacher or, far too often, whichever teacher was slowest in running away when being asked to "volunteer". in my experience (which, admittedly, is getting dated - it's been nearly 10 years since i had much to do with internet in schools), that was typical at public schools. the few exceptions were at the massively over-resourced "schools of the future" which had everything that the other schools never had any chance of getting. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From marghanita at ramin.com.au Mon May 16 08:44:45 2005 From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz) Date: Mon May 16 08:41:49 2005 Subject: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft In-Reply-To: <4287C504.6070500@ozemail.com.au> References: 13289022 <4287C504.6070500@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <4287D0DD.2050006@ramin.com.au> rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > A clear statement of policy and requirements would tell the world: > - why computers are a requirement for education; > - what specific purpose the computers in schools are meant to achieve; > - how to measure performance against purpose; and finally > - what systems, architecture, and software are required to fulfil the > educational requirements. Next you will be asking Peter Costello to annunciate the investment principles for his future fund... it seems the only performance indicators we have is the $bottom line. Then again, what would you like these investment principles to be? M -- Marghanita da Cruz Director, Ramin Communications Pty Ltd http://www.ramin.com.au ABN 28-089-713-084 Chair ACS Governance of ICT Committee http://www.acs.org.au/governance Telephone: 0414-869202 mailto:marghanita@ramin.com.au From lannet at lannet.com.au Mon May 16 09:25:32 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Mon May 16 09:25:46 2005 Subject: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft In-Reply-To: <4287B566.ED4D6184@iimetro.com.au> References: <4287B566.ED4D6184@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <4287DA6C.5070608@lannet.com.au> Thanks for that reference. I have forwarded it, and Con's article on to the principal of one of my clients - a private primary school. Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft > John Naughton > Sunday May 15, 2005 > The Observer > http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,6903,1483969,00.html -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From vicc at cia.com.au Mon May 16 09:27:26 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Deus Ex Machina) Date: Mon May 16 09:29:25 2005 Subject: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft In-Reply-To: <4287C504.6070500@ozemail.com.au> References: <4287C504.6070500@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <20050515232726.GA29148@cia.com.au> rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au [rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au] wrote: > teachers are left out of the debate (both in terms of their training and > their ability to contribute back to the discussion) is that today, > *delivery* is the sole requirement of the classroom computer. Once it's > been bought, shipped, and the money spent, it's served its purpose and > proved that (a) politicians care and (b) (jurisdiction name) has the > most advanced computer-based classrooms in the country. this problem is not restricted to schools, its endemic in government, the only things most gov dep measure is how much money they spend. they should measure the result of that expenditure and how well they meet the budget outcomes so we can see how well our money is in fact being spent. most budget outcomes would have to be reworded into measurable and time bounded terms. targeted improvements would have to be quantifiable. currently most gov dept run on waffly feel good outcomes that could require anything from $0 to the entire budget to fullfil. Vic From brd at iimetro.com.au Mon May 16 09:51:54 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Mon May 16 09:52:34 2005 Subject: [LINK] Firms risk lawsuits for poor websites Message-ID: <4287E09A.8D856AA6@iimetro.com.au> Firms risk lawsuits for poor websites 16 May 2005 There's more to the art of website design than pretty pages. They must also be accessible to people with disabilities. By Reuben Schwarz. Stuff http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3280899a28,00.html When a company designs its website, it may ask for a sleek look, or ease of navigation, or jaw-dropping animation. Making the site fully accessible for disabled web surfers comes lower down the list, if it appears at all. But New Zealand companies may be leaving themselves open to legal action and human rights complaints if their websites offer services and prices not easily available offline. New Zealand firms have so far been spared lawsuits but overseas firms haven't been so lucky. The Sydney Olympic Committee had to pay $A20,000 in damages in 2000, and last year US travel sites Ramada.com and Priceline.com were successfully sued for $US40,000 and $US37,500 respectively - both for having websites judged to discriminate against the visually impaired. And it's not small, fly-by-night developers who are behind the lax accessibility - the Sydney Olympics website was created by IBM. As technology improves, disabled New Zealanders can access more and more of the internet. However, simple things that are often overlooked can bar their way. For example, all 15 travel sites surveyed in an informal study by Wellington website auditor W 3 A showed some accessibility problems. This included the websites of Air New Zealand, fellow airline Origin Pacific and many online travel companies. AdvertisementAdvertisementW 3 A chief executive Bruce Aylward says a company's website is a public service and must comply with the Human Rights Act. If a non-accessible site offers a discount which isn't available offline, technically they would be discriminating against the disabled people who couldn't access it. "My feeling is that a lot of people with disabilities today don't realise their rights in this regard. Most companies are not aware of the need for this, and that problem stems from web designers not being aware of the need for this," he says. About one in five New Zealanders has some form of disability, with close to 100,000 adults and children visually impaired. Human Rights Commission spokeswoman Carolyne Jurriaans says websites based in New Zealand could be discriminatory if they offer goods or services that aren't fully accessible. The commission hasn't received any official complaints about website accessibility. One unofficial complaint that a bank's website discriminated against the visually impaired was settled privately, she says. The commission's website is itself being revamped to make it more accessible. Following e-government guidelines, all government agencies plan to have their websites fully accessible by 2006. The World Wide Web Consortium publishes a list of guidelines that Mr Aylward uses to audit sites. Common errors include a lack of "Alt" tags used in HTML to describe an image. These descriptions are read out by the screen reading software used by the visually impaired. Improper tags either contain nothing or the image's filename, which is read out by the software as gibberish. The absence of proper Alt tags was a key part of the successful suit against the Sydney Olympics. This problem occurred often in W 3 A's audit of New Zealand sites. Some audited sites also had online forms without clear labels that screen readers can pick out, limiting how well the visually impaired can fill out the forms. Screen readers are equivalent to a sighted person reading only a few words of a web page at a time. The most popular in New Zealand are Jaws, made by US firm Freedom Scientific, and Windows-Eyes. The basic Windows XP version of Jaws costs $1950, with two free upgrades included. Each upgrade is valued at about $450. If someone can't afford to keep the software up to date, they risk not being able to hear some sites. Many sites looked at by Mr Aylward also required viewers to use Javascript. Photosensitive epileptics may disable Javascript because it can bring up flickering graphics, which can trigger seizures. Air New Zealand's site failed to meet these three guidelines and so may be vulnerable to charges of discrimination because the firm waives service fees for online bookings. Spokeswoman Rosie Paul says the website was not audited for accessibility, though the company has received no complaints so far. However, Air New Zealand will waive service fees - $15 for domestic flights and $25 for international per sector for booking via a call centre - for those who can't use its site, if they're a member of the Association of Blind Citizens. Origin Pacific also failed all three tests. It could not be reached for comment. Despite failing the audit, visually impaired staff at the Royal New Zealand Foundation for the Blind were able to order tickets from the Air New Zealand site. Jonathon Mosen, an employee of Christchurch tech firm HumanWare and blind since birth, has ordered tickets from the site many times even though "it's not the most intuitive site". He says having a lot of experience with screen readers gives him the skill to navigate a site even when it's not perfect. A site can fail a W 3 A audit and still be accessible for the disabled, he says, because the guidelines set out by the World Wide Web Consortium haven't kept up with technology. "I know blind people who are playing Macromedia-based games using screen readers." He hasn't heard of anyone having trouble with the Air New Zealand site, and it's possible that the missing Alt tags aren't important for visually impaired fliers with the requisite skill. New Zealand websites in general aren't that bad, he says, though many still lack proper Alt tags for images. Some websites, though, are simply not designed with the visually impaired in mind. Mr Mosen says Pizza Hut's site is a good example because it launches a Macromedia Flash pop-up window that can't be read by his software. A Pizza Hut spokeswoman says the company was unaware of any accessibility problems with its website. Pizza Hut doesn't offer any deals online which aren't available through its phone service. Kiwibank fielded complaints last year from the Association of Blind Citizens for its "captcha" - letters and numbers presented as slightly warped text to prevent computers from repeatedly trying to guess its customers' passwords. Kiwibank spokesman Bruce Thompson says an audio version of the captcha was put on the site one week after the association said they couldn't be read by screen readers. "Unfortunately, we weren't aware of the issue before it was raised." He says Kiwibank used the complaint as a catalyst to audit its site further, fixing its image tags in the process. W 3 A audits sites according to guidelines from the World Wide Web Consortium that lay out rules for three different grades of accessibility. ALT tags and a ban on screen flickering fall into the lowest grade. At the highest grade, "AAA", mandates clear breaks between adjacent links, a logical tab order through links, and keyboard shortcuts to important links. Another New Zealand auditor, Accease, uses these guidelines as well as a panel of disabled employees, including tetraplegics, the visually impaired and the intellectually handicapped. It also audits sites over slow connections and over the small screen on mobile phones. W 3 A is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Alpha Squared Solutions, a British website auditing firm. W 3 A is one of many firms that audit websites for accessibility, but one of the few "independent" ones that don't also sell web design services. Prices vary with the size of the site, but W 3 A's audits run up to 25 per cent of the cost of building the website. 'IMPROVE' GUIDELINES After auditing 130 government websites, Wellington firm Optimal Usability has a few suggestions for the Government's accessibility guidelines. "Although they're definitely useful, there's certainly a lot that could be done to improve them," says director Trent Mankelow. Mr Mankelow says there are too many checkpoints scattered throughout the guideline document. This makes it difficult to create a checklist and some checkpoints even repeat. Checkpoints, he says, should be uniquely numbered and provided in a clear list. He also criticises the guidelines for being too ambiguous. An auditor has to evaluate both "must" and "should" clauses, with no way of knowing how many pages must fail before the site does. "Do they have to do all the musts, or just a certain percentage? As the guidelines sit at the moment there's no way of knowing if you're black or white compliant." In an article in the recent Optimal Usability newsletter, Mr Mankelow's biggest criticism of the process was that "it is still possible to create a very unusable site and comply 100 per cent with the guidelines". The State Services Commission will review the guidelines this year and a spokesman says it "welcomes continuing feedback". -- A child is not a salmon mousse. A child is a temporarily disabled and stunted version of a larger person, whom you will someday know. Your job is to help them overcome the disabilities associated with their size and inexperience so that they get on with being that larger person. -- Barbara Ehrenreich Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From cas at taz.net.au Mon May 16 10:02:15 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Mon May 16 10:00:35 2005 Subject: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft In-Reply-To: <4287D0DD.2050006@ramin.com.au> References: <4287C504.6070500@ozemail.com.au> <4287D0DD.2050006@ramin.com.au> Message-ID: <20050516000215.GY18150@taz.net.au> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 08:44:45AM +1000, Marghanita da Cruz wrote: > Next you will be asking Peter Costello to annunciate the investment > principles for his future fund... it seems the only performance > indicators we have is the $bottom line. Then again, what would you like > these investment principles to be? the purpose of the "future fund" is to get rid of the embarassing budget surpluses so that nobody asks difficult questions like "if we have such huge surpluses, why don't we spend it on schools, hospitals, or other services for the public? in fact, why are we cutting services when we have such huge surpluses?". ditto with the ridiculous obsession with tax cuts. most australians would be far better of with an extra $21+ billion spent on medicare, education, hospitals, pharmaceutical benefits etc than they would be with an extra $6 in their pockets every week. $6? who gives a damn? it's trivial - it's not enough to make any difference at all to *anyone's* life. spending more on medicare would, however, make a *huge* difference to people's lives. too bad labour doesn't have the guts to dispute the "need" for tax cuts rather than just follow howard and play the 'my tax cut is bigger than yours' game. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Mon May 16 10:36:48 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Mon May 16 10:42:07 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <20050515223316.GN19396@cyber.com.au> References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> <20050515223316.GN19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20050516103451.01d7e928@popa.melbpc.org.au> At 08:33 AM 16/05/2005, Con Zymaris wrote: >By my analysis and experience (I've used Windows since version 2.0 and >Linux since 1993), and by reports published[1], Linux requires 75% _less_ >manpower for daily operational use and support. This will help reduce the >amount of time teachers spend fighting Windows scrub fires and allow them >more time for everything else. Welcome to Link, Con. My question is could it be that people hear *nix and think command line interface? Could it be that the fear is a misconception of what the *nix environments are like today? I know my image is still of obscure commands like ls and grep and grok, so I've not stepped into the *nix world ever since. Jan JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From Evan.ARTHUR at Dest.gov.au Mon May 16 10:52:35 2005 From: Evan.ARTHUR at Dest.gov.au (Evan.ARTHUR@Dest.gov.au) Date: Mon May 16 10:52:51 2005 Subject: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft Message-ID: <200505160052.j4G0qZuM013807@name-ext2.dewr.gov.au> Richard Chirgwin expressed a desire, which he felt was likely to be long unrequited, for a policy statement on what computers in education were for. While not claiming the complete answers to Richard's yearnings, he and others might like to look at http://www.dest.gov.au/ministers/images/js.pdf. Constructively destructive criticism welcomed. The acronym enhanced organisation mentioned at the start of the document (MCEETYA) is the Ministerial Council for Education, Employment, Training and Youth Affairs. Evan Arthur Group Manager Innovation and Research Systems Group Department of Education, Science and Training Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message and any attached files may be confidential information, and may also be the subject of legal professional privilege. If you are not the intended recipient any use, disclosure or copying of this e-mail is unauthorised. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments. From conz at cyber.com.au Mon May 16 11:05:42 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Mon May 16 11:09:53 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20050516103451.01d7e928@popa.melbpc.org.au> References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> <20050515223316.GN19396@cyber.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050516103451.01d7e928@popa.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <20050516010542.GP19396@cyber.com.au> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 10:36:48AM +1000, Jan Whitaker wrote: > At 08:33 AM 16/05/2005, Con Zymaris wrote: > >By my analysis and experience (I've used Windows since version 2.0 and > >Linux since 1993), and by reports published[1], Linux requires 75% _less_ > >manpower for daily operational use and support. This will help reduce the > >amount of time teachers spend fighting Windows scrub fires and allow them > >more time for everything else. > > Welcome to Link, Con. Thanks Jan. > My question is could it be that people hear *nix and Just point them to the Mac. It's *nix and looks end-user oriented. The Mac breaks the myth. Modern Linux distros can ride on the Mac's myth-breaking coat-tails. > think command line interface? Could it be that the fear is a misconception > of what the *nix environments are like today? I know my image is still of It could be. However, think of it this way. If you operated a factory, and I and a few other businesses came toyou and offered a new method for processing your widgets which reduced your costs by 75%, wouldn't you at the very least start to seriously investigate our collective claims? Wouldn't you do your own numbers? Isn't it in your interests to reduce costs? Obviously, yes. But in public Education, nothing of the sort occurs. The people I've spoken to in that space specifically were _not_ keen in learning more about OpenOffice.org etc. They were scared of mentioning it to their constituent schools in case Microsoft found out. > obscure commands like ls and grep and grok, so I've not stepped into the > *nix world ever since. As a user in a modern Linux desktop, you need never use the command line. However, if you _want_ it, the full power of Unix is till there at your disposal. There are many myths that we can break down. However, the other side needs to at least pay attention. Presently they have stuffed cotton wool in their ears and are jamming their fingers in too. Let me share a little tidbit. This is from an industry insider. In 2003, the Ministerial Council on Education, Employment, Training and Youth Affairs (http://www.mceetya.edu.au/) put in place a directive that the Education Departments in the states should come back the following year with strategies in going forward with both Microsoft and Linux/FOSS solutions. Guess what; the following year the Departments came back with only a Microsoft strategy. They wont even follow their own Ministerial Council directive. Does this make the inherent bias clearer? -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From stil at stilgherrian.com Mon May 16 11:10:45 2005 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Mon May 16 11:11:10 2005 Subject: [LINK] Stopping "backscatter" emails - to addresses used by malware In-Reply-To: <20050515221221.GV18150@taz.net.au> Message-ID: On 16/5/05 8:12 AM, "Craig Sanders" wrote: > most people who THINK they need a backup MX don't. secondary MX > are essentially obsolete now, and often cause more problems (e.g. > backscatter) than they're supposed to solve - especially since they are > targetted by spamware & viruses. backup/secondary MX are useful only in > very specific and rare circumstances these days. Out of curiosity, what are these circumstances? Stil -- Stilgherrian Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia. ABN 25 231 641 421 mobile 0407 623 600 (international +61 407 623 600) fax 02 9516 5630 (international +61 2 9516 5630) From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au Mon May 16 11:17:52 2005 From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee) Date: Mon May 16 11:18:04 2005 Subject: [LINK] Uni's aren't so different to schools Message-ID: <20050516011752.GA29679@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> The same problem exists with universities. CAUDIT has negotiated a deal with Microsoft, so end users -- even entire faculties -- see Microsoft as "free" and there's little incentive to look at OpenOffice.org. There's also a fair bit of (often mindless in my opinion) resistance from inside university IT units. But the licence deal doesn't cover student-owned machines, so I've been actively providing OpenOffice for students who come to me asking for Microsoft Office. Danny. From conz at cyber.com.au Mon May 16 11:19:55 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Mon May 16 11:22:26 2005 Subject: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft In-Reply-To: <4287C504.6070500@ozemail.com.au> References: <4287C504.6070500@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <20050516011955.GQ19396@cyber.com.au> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 07:54:12AM +1000, rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > The school computers debate is impossible to resolve, because the > starting point is nowhere in sight. Nobody's ever going to get a > sensible decision about "what computers, what architecture, whose > software" and so on, until someone's decided what the school computers > are >for<. I demur. It's an extremely tractable problem. school computers are for whatever they are presently used for. 90% of the time, that's office productivity, web-page creation, simple prgramming, email and web. All of which can be very competently done on Linux/FOSS. And until someone magically decides what the students _should_ be doing with the machines, let's switch them over to save money and effort. > > The old principle of IT is that if you want success in the project, you > have to start with an understanding of the requirements. But I would > wager tha among the huge numbers of policy documents, motherhood > statements, and political promises, there is nothing so basic as a > requirements document. As far as public schools are concerned, the only > "requirements" are what? To enable the students to pass standardised > computer skills tests. > > So there's a budget, the purpose of which is "buy stuff", and there's a > list of suppliers, and there's lots of vague statements about using the > Internet and grabbing Encarta as a substitute for research, and a > requirement (imposed by business lobbies) that kids get tested for their > ability to use Word, Excel and PowerPoint. > > A clear statement of policy and requirements would tell the world: > - why computers are a requirement for education; > - what specific purpose the computers in schools are meant to achieve; > - how to measure performance against purpose; and finally > - what systems, architecture, and software are required to fulfil the > educational requirements. > > The triumph of Microsoft - and Apple in NSW schools, for that matter - > is the result of ad-hocery driven by vendors, lobbies, and interest > groups. The supply side has created a belief that spending $100 million > (or whatever) on computers signals a government's "committment to > education". Therefore the money gets allocated and spent. The selected solution (Microsoft, Apple) may very well be the best and may deliver the best value. However, unless Education opens its markets, how will it ever know? -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Mon May 16 11:22:59 2005 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Mon May 16 11:23:27 2005 Subject: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft In-Reply-To: <20050516000215.GY18150@taz.net.au> References: <4287C504.6070500@ozemail.com.au> <4287D0DD.2050006@ramin.com.au> <20050516000215.GY18150@taz.net.au> Message-ID: On 16 May 2005, at 10:02 AM, Craig Sanders wrote: > the purpose of the "future fund" is to get rid of the embarassing > budget > surpluses so that nobody asks difficult questions like "if we have such > huge surpluses, why don't we spend it on schools, hospitals, or other > services for the public? in fact, why are we cutting services when we > have such huge surpluses?". Actually its not. The Commonwealth set up a generous superannuation scheme 50 odd years ago for its own employees without putting enough money aside to pay the pensions when they came due. They had to be funded out of the current budget i.e. normal taxation revenue. This was pretty stupid and the insurance industry has been saying for years they had to do something. So now they have. I am currently paid by that fund, now ComSuper. They could have called it "Fix the stupid superannuation error fund" or "Public servants pension fund" but "Future fund" sound SO much better and they will have a HUGE amount of money to move around for investment purposes. This is good. It's also good that my pension will continue to be paid :-) Tony phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From conz at cyber.com.au Mon May 16 11:24:30 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Mon May 16 11:25:02 2005 Subject: [LINK] Re: Uni's aren't so different to schools In-Reply-To: <20050516011752.GA29679@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> References: <20050516011752.GA29679@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <20050516012430.GR19396@cyber.com.au> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 11:17:52AM +1000, Danny Yee wrote: > The same problem exists with universities. CAUDIT has negotiated a deal > with Microsoft, so end users -- even entire faculties -- see Microsoft I know. Which is why I want to start persuading minds at CAUDIT and possibly AVCC. I'm already working on this, and any additional contacts therein I would be grateful for. > as "free" and there's little incentive to look at OpenOffice.org. > There's also a fair bit of (often mindless in my opinion) resistance > from inside university IT units. > > But the licence deal doesn't cover student-owned machines, so I've been > actively providing OpenOffice for students who come to me asking for > Microsoft Office. Which will be 0.01% of the potential userbase I want. I'm hungry and I pursue with some degree of energy. There will be no respite ;-) -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From brd at iimetro.com.au Mon May 16 11:43:04 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Mon May 16 11:43:59 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> <20050515223316.GN19396@cyber.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050516103451.01d7e928@popa.melbpc.org.au> <20050516010542.GP19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <4287FAA8.6148367@iimetro.com.au> Con Zymaris wrote: > It could be. However, think of it this way. > > If you operated a factory, and I and a few other businesses came > to you and offered a new method for processing your widgets which > reduced your costs by 75%, wouldn't you at the very least start > to seriously investigate our collective claims? Wouldn't you do > your own numbers? Isn't it in your interests to reduce costs? > > Obviously, yes. Unfortunately there are two costs involved. The cost of change and the cost after the change. The cost of change is often much higher than an potential savings and it is this, and the fear of the unknown aspects of the change, that results in the retention of many non-optimum solutions. If the whole world drove their cars on the same side of the road, there would be many benefits. Is anyone considering such a proposal? Not that I've heard of. > In 2003, the Ministerial Council on Education, Employment, Training > and Youth Affairs (http://www.mceetya.edu.au/) put in place a > directive that the Education Departments in the states should come > back the following year with strategies in going forward with both > Microsoft and Linux/FOSS solutions. Guess what; the following year > the Departments came back with only a Microsoft strategy. They > wont even follow their own Ministerial Council directive. > > Does this make the inherent bias clearer? I do not disagree that there is a bias, I'm just suggesting that it has its foundations in human behaviour (both rational and irrational), not some hidden conspiricy to be nice to Microsoft. -- In a completely rational society, the best of us would be teachers and the rest of us would have to settle for something else. -- Lee Iacocca Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From lannet at lannet.com.au Mon May 16 11:48:56 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Mon May 16 11:49:12 2005 Subject: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft In-Reply-To: <20050516000215.GY18150@taz.net.au> References: <4287C504.6070500@ozemail.com.au> <4287D0DD.2050006@ramin.com.au> <20050516000215.GY18150@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <4287FC08.70305@lannet.com.au> Got to agree with you this time Craig. It's the "sandwich and a milk shake" tax cut - and it's weekly and not daily :( Craig Sanders wrote: > ditto with the ridiculous obsession with tax cuts. most australians > would be far better of with an extra $21+ billion spent on medicare, > education, hospitals, pharmaceutical benefits etc than they would be > with an extra $6 in their pockets every week. $6? who gives a damn? it's > trivial - it's not enough to make any difference at all to *anyone's* > life. spending more on medicare would, however, make a *huge* difference > to people's lives. > > too bad labour doesn't have the guts to dispute the "need" for tax cuts > rather than just follow howard and play the 'my tax cut is bigger than > yours' game. > > craig > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From lannet at lannet.com.au Mon May 16 11:52:39 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Mon May 16 11:52:59 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20050516103451.01d7e928@popa.melbpc.org.au> References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> <20050515223316.GN19396@cyber.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050516103451.01d7e928@popa.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <4287FCE7.2000404@lannet.com.au> I think you mean awk, Jan, not grok. :) BTW, hands up those who know what "grep" stands for. OK, now try "awk". That's today's trivia question, now get back to work :) Jan Whitaker wrote: > At 08:33 AM 16/05/2005, Con Zymaris wrote: > >> By my analysis and experience (I've used Windows since version 2.0 and >> Linux since 1993), and by reports published[1], Linux requires 75% _less_ >> manpower for daily operational use and support. This will help reduce the >> amount of time teachers spend fighting Windows scrub fires and allow them >> more time for everything else. > > > Welcome to Link, Con. My question is could it be that people hear *nix > and think command line interface? Could it be that the fear is a > misconception of what the *nix environments are like today? I know my > image is still of obscure commands like ls and grep and grok, so I've > not stepped into the *nix world ever since. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Mon May 16 11:55:51 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Mon May 16 11:56:08 2005 Subject: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft In-Reply-To: References: <4287C504.6070500@ozemail.com.au> <4287D0DD.2050006@ramin.com.au> <20050516000215.GY18150@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20050516115353.01ef1da8@popa.melbpc.org.au> At 11:22 AM 16/05/2005, Antony Barry wrote: >They could have called it "Fix the stupid superannuation error fund" or >"Public servants pension fund" but "Future fund" sound SO much better and >they will have a HUGE amount of money to move around for investment >purposes. This is good. It's also good that my pension will continue to be >paid :-) Actually, it also gave them breadth to lie about it being because of the general aging of the population, which it has NOTHING to do with. I'm glad you will continue to be paid, AB. Let's also hope it bumps up the market here, although it will be artificial because of share trading instead of internal growth in businesses listed on the exchange. We'll be facing a bubble burst from that at some stage in the future. I wonder who'll be in government then and will blame it on this one? Jan JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From rick at praxis.com.au Mon May 16 12:01:53 2005 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Mon May 16 12:02:13 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20050516103451.01d7e928@popa.melbpc.org.au> References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> <20050515223316.GN19396@cyber.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050516103451.01d7e928@popa.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <4287FF11.2050802@praxis.com.au> Jan Whitaker wrote: > At 08:33 AM 16/05/2005, Con Zymaris wrote: > >> By my analysis and experience (I've used Windows since version 2.0 and >> Linux since 1993), and by reports published[1], Linux requires 75% _less_ >> manpower for daily operational use and support. This will help reduce the >> amount of time teachers spend fighting Windows scrub fires and allow them >> more time for everything else. > > > Welcome to Link, Con. My question is could it be that people hear *nix > and think command line interface? Could it be that the fear is a > misconception of what the *nix environments are like today? I know my > image is still of obscure commands like ls and grep and grok, so I've > not stepped into the *nix world ever since. I *wish* there was a grok command. Since it means "understand", it could be very useful :) Anecdote: I have had visitors want to check their web-based hotmail/whetevermail. I plunk them down in front of a linux screen using a Mozilla browser. They are none the wiser that they are not using Windows ... it all basically looks the same. No a CLI in sight. To directly answer your question, I don't think most people think "ew! CLI!" when they think Linux. They don't think anything ... they don't know. You already betray far too much experience by even knowing about the CLI, or "shell". cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services People who enjoy eating sausage and obey the law should not watch either being made. -- Otto von Bismarck From r.polanskis at uws.edu.au Mon May 16 12:00:51 2005 From: r.polanskis at uws.edu.au (r.polanskis@uws.edu.au) Date: Mon May 16 12:02:44 2005 Subject: [LINK] Uni's aren't so different to schools In-Reply-To: <20050516011752.GA29679@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> References: <20050516011752.GA29679@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2005, Danny Yee wrote: > The same problem exists with universities. CAUDIT has negotiated a deal > with Microsoft, so end users -- even entire faculties -- see Microsoft > as "free" and there's little incentive to look at OpenOffice.org. > There's also a fair bit of (often mindless in my opinion) resistance > from inside university IT units. > > But the licence deal doesn't cover student-owned machines, so I've been > actively providing OpenOffice for students who come to me asking for > Microsoft Office. We at can now buy certain MS products for home use for less than $25 a piece.... Hopefully this will stop certain staff members from trying to email themselves copies of MSOffice to home but does very little to encourage the use of other products such as OpenOffice or OSX's "iWork". We UNIX admins are viewed as dinosaurs from another era who have to be cajoled into using Exchange mail, which we access from UNIX via IMAP. rachel -- Rachel Polanskis Systems Admin, University of Western Sydney ADD Werrington North Campus (+61 2) 9678 7291 "I have found the solution, Doctor. Knife them in the neck" - Leela, Dr Who "Who do you trust?" - John W Howard From lannet at lannet.com.au Mon May 16 12:09:32 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Mon May 16 12:09:47 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <20050516010542.GP19396@cyber.com.au> References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> <20050515223316.GN19396@cyber.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050516103451.01d7e928@popa.melbpc.org.au> <20050516010542.GP19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <428800DC.9020503@lannet.com.au> Con Zymaris wrote: > On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 10:36:48AM +1000, Jan Whitaker wrote: >>My question is could it be that people hear *nix and > > > Just point them to the Mac. It's *nix and looks end-user oriented. The Mac > breaks the myth. Modern Linux distros can ride on the Mac's myth-breaking > coat-tails. I believe that most desktop distros do a good job at that anyway, but some of the installs leave something to be desired - I was seriously put off Debian for that reason. I use FC as a distro these days and it is way easier than doing a Windows install, but I guess it could frighten the novitiate when it starts asking about partitions, RAID, and logical volume management. > > >>think command line interface? Could it be that the fear is a misconception >>of what the *nix environments are like today? I know my image is still of > > > It could be. However, think of it this way. > > If you operated a factory, and I and a few other businesses came toyou and > offered a new method for processing your widgets which reduced your costs > by 75%, wouldn't you at the very least start to seriously investigate our > collective claims? Wouldn't you do your own numbers? Isn't it in your > interests to reduce costs? > > Obviously, yes. > > But in public Education, nothing of the sort occurs. > > The people I've spoken to in that space specifically were _not_ keen in > learning more about OpenOffice.org etc. They were scared of mentioning it > to their constituent schools in case Microsoft found out. Mind you, if M$ were to be challenged then they would probably come in with massive licence cost undercutting, and, because it is a licence fee and not a product cost, they might even get away with it under TPA - but perhaps not under competition policy. > > >>obscure commands like ls and grep and grok, so I've not stepped into the >>*nix world ever since. > > > As a user in a modern Linux desktop, you need never use the command line. > > However, if you _want_ it, the full power of Unix is till there at your > disposal. ...and it is _very_ powerful. One of the frustrations of Windows is not being able to easily "get under the hood". > > There are many myths that we can break down. However, the other side needs > to at least pay attention. Presently they have stuffed cotton wool in > their ears and are jamming their fingers in too. > > Let me share a little tidbit. This is from an industry insider. > > In 2003, the Ministerial Council on Education, Employment, Training and > Youth Affairs (http://www.mceetya.edu.au/) put in place a directive that > the Education Departments in the states should come back the following > year with strategies in going forward with both Microsoft and Linux/FOSS > solutions. Guess what; the following year the Departments came back with > only a Microsoft strategy. They wont even follow their own Ministerial > Council directive. > > Does this make the inherent bias clearer? > It was an federal election year, the federal minister was otherwise diverted, and they knew it. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From conz at cyber.com.au Mon May 16 12:10:13 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Mon May 16 12:10:23 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <4287FAA8.6148367@iimetro.com.au> References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> <20050515223316.GN19396@cyber.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050516103451.01d7e928@popa.melbpc.org.au> <20050516010542.GP19396@cyber.com.au> <4287FAA8.6148367@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <20050516021013.GA19396@cyber.com.au> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 11:43:04AM +1000, Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > Con Zymaris wrote: > > It could be. However, think of it this way. > > > > If you operated a factory, and I and a few other businesses came > > to you and offered a new method for processing your widgets which > > reduced your costs by 75%, wouldn't you at the very least start > > to seriously investigate our collective claims? Wouldn't you do > > your own numbers? Isn't it in your interests to reduce costs? > > > > Obviously, yes. > > Unfortunately there are two costs involved. The cost of change and the > cost after the change. > > The cost of change is often much higher than an potential savings and it > is this, and the fear of the unknown aspects of the change, that results > in the retention of many non-optimum solutions. Agreed. The chief point I will make is that it is the perceived cost of change being too high. Think of it this way. Even if, first up, migrating to Linux/FOSS is more expensive than the status quo, by the second and third refresh cycle, you are saving money hand over fist. Remember, I can show you a 75% reduction in TCO by moving to locked-down Linux/FOSS. > > In 2003, the Ministerial Council on Education, Employment, Training > > and Youth Affairs (http://www.mceetya.edu.au/) put in place a > > directive that the Education Departments in the states should come > > back the following year with strategies in going forward with both > > Microsoft and Linux/FOSS solutions. Guess what; the following year > > the Departments came back with only a Microsoft strategy. They > > wont even follow their own Ministerial Council directive. > > > > Does this make the inherent bias clearer? > > I do not disagree that there is a bias, I'm just suggesting that it has > its foundations in human behaviour (both rational and irrational), not > some hidden conspiricy to be nice to Microsoft. Not correct. If I was tasked with running a cost centre, and schools are a cost centre, I would do what is necessary to investigate claims that any new piece of technology can save my cost centre money. It doesn't mean that I would adopt that new technology, but I must seriously investigate it. Otherwise there will be valid claims towards my professional negligence. Most Education departments are not seriously investigating this new technology. I therefore claim (and state so publicly,) that they are either professionally negligent or substantially biased. Take your pick. -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From doug.moncur at gmail.com Mon May 16 12:09:52 2005 From: doug.moncur at gmail.com (Doug Moncur) Date: Mon May 16 12:13:04 2005 Subject: [LINK] computers in schools and uni's and open source Message-ID: <428800F0.4020301@gmail.com> I spent a lot of time working in the UK in the computer centre of a major university, including looking after software licensing. originally our standard desktop was as Microsoft free as I could make it (WordPerfect, Quattro Pro, Paradox, Netscape) This meant that we had very low site licensing costs and could spend the money on better facilities, more staff and so on. Problem was that employers increasingly wanted graduates with Office skills, no matter that if you can handle wordperfect you've learned the same skills and you can convert in a couple of days. The faculty also though that having office would help the collaborate with colleagues elsewhere, who had already had the Microsoft disease. So reluctnatly we moved and went from GBP5k to GBP68k per annum for site licensing for Office software. I though this was silly, so when star office came along I signed up the Uni to the Star office education programme where for GBP50 we got Star Office and a pile of documentation cd's. We made this available as a free user install option. I think we distributed a grand total of 9 copies in the firest 3 months. Another uni in the UK started giving students open office cd's when they turned up at the start of the year, the rationale being that they could save the cost of word, yet save their files in a format compatible with departmental essay standards. The use of open office by students was underwhelming. It's not difficult to see why - students end up with a massive post graduation debt these days. That's why they go for more vocational/goal oriented subjects where they can make money. Likewise if these employers want Office skills it sure as hell is M$ and OO they mean. yes there will be people who adopt OO and its brethern. But they'll be in a minority. Students don't want it as it doesn't give them a benefit and faculty don't want it as they don't have a reason to change product -Doug -- "it will take time to restore chaos" - George W. Bush From lannet at lannet.com.au Mon May 16 12:15:33 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Mon May 16 12:15:51 2005 Subject: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft In-Reply-To: References: <4287C504.6070500@ozemail.com.au> <4287D0DD.2050006@ramin.com.au> <20050516000215.GY18150@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <42880245.7050509@lannet.com.au> Antony Barry wrote: > > They could have called it "Fix the stupid superannuation error fund" or > "Public servants pension fund" but "Future fund" sound SO much better > and they will have a HUGE amount of money to move around for investment > purposes. This is good. It's also good that my pension will continue to > be paid :-) > Yours may be, but consider those who were too late into super planning and will be reliant on the age pension - they are likely to be royally screwed in the future. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From lannet at lannet.com.au Mon May 16 12:19:14 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Mon May 16 12:19:26 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <4287FAA8.6148367@iimetro.com.au> References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> <20050515223316.GN19396@cyber.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050516103451.01d7e928@popa.melbpc.org.au> <20050516010542.GP19396@cyber.com.au> <4287FAA8.6148367@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <42880322.8040105@lannet.com.au> Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > Con Zymaris wrote: > >>It could be. However, think of it this way. >> >>If you operated a factory, and I and a few other businesses came >>to you and offered a new method for processing your widgets which >>reduced your costs by 75%, wouldn't you at the very least start >>to seriously investigate our collective claims? Wouldn't you do >>your own numbers? Isn't it in your interests to reduce costs? >> >>Obviously, yes. > > > Unfortunately there are two costs involved. The cost of change and the > cost after the change. > > The cost of change is often much higher than an potential savings and it > is this, and the fear of the unknown aspects of the change, that results > in the retention of many non-optimum solutions. > > If the whole world drove their cars on the same side of the road, there > would be many benefits. Is anyone considering such a proposal? Not that > I've heard of. Why did the Swedes change from left to right many years ago - and they did it overnight, together with all the necessary sign changes. Most car manufacturers nowadays design their cars to be as easy to make for LHD as for RHD. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From brd at iimetro.com.au Mon May 16 12:19:23 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Mon May 16 12:19:33 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> <20050515223316.GN19396@cyber.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050516103451.01d7e928@popa.melbpc.org.au> <4287FCE7.2000404@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <4288032B.C9F53731@iimetro.com.au> Howard Lowndes wrote: > > I think you mean awk, Jan, not grok. :) > > BTW, hands up those who know what "grep" stands for. grep A {Unix} command for searching files for lines matching a given {regular expression} (RE). Named after the {qed}/{ed} editor subcommand "g/re/p", where re stands for a regular expression, to Globally search for the Regular Expression and Print the lines containing matches to it. There are two other variants, fgrep which searches only for fixed strings and {egrep} which accepts extended REs but is usually the fastest of the three. Used by extension to mean "to look for something by pattern". When browsing through a large set of files, one may speak of "grepping around". "Grep the bulletin board for the system backup schedule, would you?" See also {vgrep}. > OK, now try "awk". awk 1. (Named from the authors' initials) An interpreted language included with many versions of {Unix} for massaging text data developed by Alfred Aho, Peter Weinberger, and Brian Kernighan in 1978. It is characterised by {C}-like syntax, declaration-free variables, {associative array}s, and field-oriented text processing. There is a {GNU} version called {gawk} and other varients including {bawk}, {mawk}, {nawk}, {tawk}. {Perl} was inspired in part by awk but is much more powerful. 2. An expression which is awkward to manipulate through normal {regexp} facilities, for example, one containing a {newline}. -- It's not what you know, it's what you can find and understand that matters. -- brd Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From pjchen at optusnet.com.au Mon May 16 12:24:26 2005 From: pjchen at optusnet.com.au (Peter Chen) Date: Mon May 16 12:24:34 2005 Subject: [LINK] Re: Uni's aren't so different to schools In-Reply-To: <20050516012430.GR19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <200505160224.j4G2OM5O030201@mail13.syd.optusnet.com.au> The University of Melbourne has run a trail distributing OpenOffice 1.x to students for a number of years. P _ _____________ _ Peter Chen +61 3 9440 6266 [home/office] 0431994205 [mobile] pjchen@optusnet.com.au MSN and Skype.com ("peterjohnchen") members.optusnet.com.au/pjchen There is something insane about a lack of doubt. Doubt, to me anyway, is what makes you human, and without doubt even the righteous lose their grip not only on reality but also on their humanity. - Tilda Swinton -----Original Message----- From: link-bounces@anumail0.anu.edu.au [mailto:link-bounces@anumail0.anu.edu.au] On Behalf Of Con Zymaris Sent: Monday, 16 May 2005 11:24 AM To: Danny Yee Cc: Link Subject: [LINK] Re: Uni's aren't so different to schools On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 11:17:52AM +1000, Danny Yee wrote: > The same problem exists with universities. CAUDIT has negotiated a > deal with Microsoft, so end users -- even entire faculties -- see > Microsoft I know. Which is why I want to start persuading minds at CAUDIT and possibly AVCC. I'm already working on this, and any additional contacts therein I would be grateful for. > as "free" and there's little incentive to look at OpenOffice.org. > There's also a fair bit of (often mindless in my opinion) resistance > from inside university IT units. > > But the licence deal doesn't cover student-owned machines, so I've > been actively providing OpenOffice for students who come to me asking > for Microsoft Office. Which will be 0.01% of the potential userbase I want. I'm hungry and I pursue with some degree of energy. There will be no respite ;-) -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 _______________________________________________ Link mailing list Link@mailman.anu.edu.au http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link From conz at cyber.com.au Mon May 16 12:28:32 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Mon May 16 12:28:35 2005 Subject: [LINK] Uni's aren't so different to schools In-Reply-To: References: <20050516011752.GA29679@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <20050516022832.GC19396@cyber.com.au> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 12:00:51PM +1000, r.polanskis@uws.edu.au wrote: > On Mon, 16 May 2005, Danny Yee wrote: > > > The same problem exists with universities. CAUDIT has negotiated a deal > > with Microsoft, so end users -- even entire faculties -- see Microsoft > > as "free" and there's little incentive to look at OpenOffice.org. > > There's also a fair bit of (often mindless in my opinion) resistance > > from inside university IT units. > > > > But the licence deal doesn't cover student-owned machines, so I've been > > actively providing OpenOffice for students who come to me asking for > > Microsoft Office. > > We at can now buy certain MS products for home use > for less than $25 a piece.... Hopefully this will stop certain > staff members from trying to email themselves copies of MSOffice to home > but does very little to encourage the use of other products such > as OpenOffice or OSX's "iWork". > > We UNIX admins are viewed as dinosaurs from another era who have to > be cajoled into using Exchange mail, which we access from UNIX via IMAP. Unless a concerted effort is made to reach the people who allocate money, this scenario will never change - no matter how good Linux/FOSS becomes. I'm curious. How much does this spend of proprietary software (such as Microsoft, Adobe etc) which can be comfortably replaced by commodity, zero cost software? -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From bpa at iss.net.au Mon May 16 12:28:33 2005 From: bpa at iss.net.au (Brenda Aynsley) Date: Mon May 16 12:28:47 2005 Subject: [LINK] Re: Uni's aren't so different to schools In-Reply-To: <20050516012430.GR19396@cyber.com.au> References: <20050516011752.GA29679@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <20050516012430.GR19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <42880551.2040102@iss.net.au> Con Zymaris wrote: >>as "free" and there's little incentive to look at OpenOffice.org. >>There's also a fair bit of (often mindless in my opinion) resistance >>from inside university IT units. >> >>But the licence deal doesn't cover student-owned machines, so I've been >>actively providing OpenOffice for students who come to me asking for >>Microsoft Office. > > > Which will be 0.01% of the potential userbase I want. > > I'm hungry and I pursue with some degree of energy. There will be no > respite ;-) > A significant and very real problem is support. If not the reality of support the perception that the support is either not available or very expensive or the learning curve is too steep when viewed against the demands on linux practitioner's time. After all we live in a world of D-I-Y. The Linux community is very introspective. This reflects the clubby nature of *nix. It follows a similar path to the Internet in the early 90s. It wasnt until Mosaic/Netscape/MSIE came into being that the clubby nature of the Internet world changed to become ubiquitous. Prior to that either people didnt know about the Internet or considered it too esoteric to bother with. Look at the Internet today - ubiquitous, pervasive, overused and abused (spam, phishing, trojans et al). It's poorly used, by people who can only just manage but by using tools that make it easy - easy to fall foul of the tricks being played by the bad guys. None the less its the place where we hang out much of our time even if its only to despair the loss of innocence of a bygone 'pure' (elitist) era ;-) And its the place where the real world is, at least some of it. This tells me that users will use the tools we give them, if we make it easy enough for them to do that. One of the strategies which should be adopted by OSIA (Open Source Industry Association) for example is to demystify the desktop which is now really terrific to use 'out of the box' see ubuntu/linspire/mandriva/redhat/suse/beatrix/mepis etc. Provide low cost/no cost training to put people out there who can do what cousin fred or next door neighbour janet does now for the windows users. Eg I have a linux desktop and it works fine, but I want to buy a new XYZ printer how do I know it will work with my linux desktop and who can I get to help me install it? And yes I am going to buy it from harvey normans/officeworks or whereever cos that's where the catalogues come from in my junk mail in the letterbox. Another example, I have two pcs at home which I connect wirelessly under windows, can I do that with linux, and how? Who will help me? How many of my children will I have to give up to do it? Whilst the appeal of free/low cost software, off the MS upgrade treadmill is attractive to almost everyone until there is 'first level' support resources in the community which will provide reassurance that they can use linux on the desktop, there wont be a great deal of incentive to mums and dads to make the switch. Now some would argue that its the corporate world that we need to convince to make the switch to linux, and I dont for a minute disagree with that. However I believe that people in the past started to buy computers for home because windows at work was useful and manageable. The Internet accelerated the adoption. Now its reinforcing, windows at home, windows at work. Mums and Dads are sensitive to cost, more so than corporates, it seems. If you get households to make the switch, then you have people at work saying "I use linux and love it", "Why arent we using linux at work, less security issues, hardly any support issues, stable, useful, easy." But we have to get people past the linux geekiness - perception or reality. Every linux person I know sits at a linux destop and immediately opens a terminal and starts banging away at the CLI. Wow now that's a good way to win over every user corporate or home based NOT. Why dont they use the WIMP/GUI interface to demonstrate that mums and dads can manage their environment? Sure I remember when I used to do the DOS thing in the early days of windows, but we need to move on from that and learn from the past surely? There's a lot that can be done from the GUI in the distros these days why not show the computer user this side of it? The budget provides funding for literacy programs for community computing, why doesnt the linux community organise to access some of that funding to start down this path? It can only help to mainstream linux and open some of the doors you so relentlessly knock on con? BTW i am not limiting this monologue to con :-) cheers brenda ps i confess to having a vested interest in this issue not only on an intellectual level but also because I run a work for the dole program trying to get linux support/training on the cheap for my participants to make them the 'cousin fred' and 'next door neighbour janet' for linux desktop users. -- Brenda Aynsley, FACS Chairman ACS SA http://www.acs.org.au/ Mobile:+61(0) 412 662 988 || Skype: callto://baynsley Phone: +61(0) 8 8357 8844 Fax: +61(0) 8 8272 7486 Oz Business Partners http://www.ozbusinesspartners.com/ From lannet at lannet.com.au Mon May 16 12:28:34 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Mon May 16 12:29:27 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <4287FF11.2050802@praxis.com.au> References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> <20050515223316.GN19396@cyber.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050516103451.01d7e928@popa.melbpc.org.au> <4287FF11.2050802@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <42880552.5050305@lannet.com.au> I guess ppl have real problems with Linux when you tell them that there is no anti-virus software for Linux. How can they trust a system that does nothing about anti-virus... Rick Welykochy wrote: > Jan Whitaker wrote: > >> At 08:33 AM 16/05/2005, Con Zymaris wrote: >> >>> By my analysis and experience (I've used Windows since version 2.0 and >>> Linux since 1993), and by reports published[1], Linux requires 75% >>> _less_ >>> manpower for daily operational use and support. This will help reduce >>> the >>> amount of time teachers spend fighting Windows scrub fires and allow >>> them >>> more time for everything else. >> >> >> >> Welcome to Link, Con. My question is could it be that people hear *nix >> and think command line interface? Could it be that the fear is a >> misconception of what the *nix environments are like today? I know my >> image is still of obscure commands like ls and grep and grok, so I've >> not stepped into the *nix world ever since. > > > I *wish* there was a grok command. Since it means "understand", it could > be very useful :) > > Anecdote: I have had visitors want to check their web-based > hotmail/whetevermail. > I plunk them down in front of a linux screen using a Mozilla browser. > They are > none the wiser that they are not using Windows ... it all basically looks > the same. No a CLI in sight. > > To directly answer your question, I don't think most people think "ew! > CLI!" > when they think Linux. They don't think anything ... they don't know. > You already > betray far too much experience by even knowing about the CLI, or "shell". > > > > cheers > rickw > > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From vicc at cia.com.au Mon May 16 12:28:34 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Deus Ex Machina) Date: Mon May 16 12:29:48 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <4287FCE7.2000404@lannet.com.au> References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> <20050515223316.GN19396@cyber.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050516103451.01d7e928@popa.melbpc.org.au> <4287FCE7.2000404@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <20050516022834.GA22942@cia.com.au> Howard Lowndes [lannet@lannet.com.au] wrote: > I think you mean awk, Jan, not grok. :) > > BTW, hands up those who know what "grep" stands for. > global regular expression pattern Vic From lannet at lannet.com.au Mon May 16 12:30:04 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Mon May 16 12:30:20 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <4288032B.C9F53731@iimetro.com.au> References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> <20050515223316.GN19396@cyber.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050516103451.01d7e928@popa.melbpc.org.au> <4287FCE7.2000404@lannet.com.au> <4288032B.C9F53731@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <428805AC.20202@lannet.com.au> You cheated. You were supposed to know that off the top of your head :) Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > Howard Lowndes wrote: > >>I think you mean awk, Jan, not grok. :) >> >>BTW, hands up those who know what "grep" stands for. > > > grep > > A {Unix} command for searching files for lines matching a given {regular > expression} (RE). Named after the {qed}/{ed} editor subcommand "g/re/p", > where re stands for a regular expression, to Globally search for the > Regular Expression and Print the lines containing matches to it. There > are two other variants, fgrep which searches only for fixed strings and > {egrep} which accepts extended REs but is usually the fastest of the > three. > > Used by extension to mean "to look for something by pattern". When > browsing through a large set of files, one may speak of "grepping > around". "Grep the bulletin board for the system backup schedule, would > you?" See also {vgrep}. > > >>OK, now try "awk". > > > awk > > 1. (Named from the authors' initials) An interpreted > language included with many versions of {Unix} for massaging text data > developed by Alfred Aho, Peter Weinberger, and Brian Kernighan in 1978. > It is characterised by {C}-like syntax, declaration-free variables, > {associative array}s, and field-oriented text processing. > > There is a {GNU} version called {gawk} and other varients including > {bawk}, {mawk}, {nawk}, {tawk}. {Perl} was inspired in part by awk but > is much more powerful. > > 2. An expression which is awkward to manipulate through normal > {regexp} facilities, for example, one containing a {newline}. > > > -- > It's not what you know, it's what you can find and understand that > matters. > -- brd > > Regards > brd > > Bernard Robertson-Dunn > Sydney Australia > brd@iimetro.com.au > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From r.polanskis at uws.edu.au Mon May 16 12:32:37 2005 From: r.polanskis at uws.edu.au (r.polanskis@uws.edu.au) Date: Mon May 16 12:33:40 2005 Subject: [LINK] Uni's aren't so different to schools In-Reply-To: <20050516022832.GC19396@cyber.com.au> References: <20050516011752.GA29679@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <20050516022832.GC19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2005, Con Zymaris wrote: > I'm curious. > > How much does this spend of proprietary software (such > as Microsoft, Adobe etc) which can be comfortably replaced by commodity, > zero cost software? Most of the IT software budget goes on COTS products. Officially, there is "no in house" development of products. I do not know the exact costs and am probably not allowed to say in any case! Reliance on OSS products is a last resort when nothing else works. In fact here at they will continue to use products that don't fulfil the purpose they were purchased for until kingdom come because it would be a loss of face otherwise.... See the hagged, rundown and slightly psychotic guy in the corner? He's our Exchange administrator.... ;) rachel -- Rachel Polanskis Systems Admin, University of Western Sydney ADD Werrington North Campus (+61 2) 9678 7291 "I have found the solution, Doctor. Knife them in the neck" - Leela, Dr Who "Who do you trust?" - John W Howard From bpa at iss.net.au Mon May 16 12:33:15 2005 From: bpa at iss.net.au (Brenda Aynsley) Date: Mon May 16 12:33:51 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <4287FCE7.2000404@lannet.com.au> References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> <20050515223316.GN19396@cyber.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050516103451.01d7e928@popa.melbpc.org.au> <4287FCE7.2000404@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <4288066B.1030500@iss.net.au> Howard Lowndes wrote: > I think you mean awk, Jan, not grok. :) > > BTW, hands up those who know what "grep" stands for. > > OK, now try "awk". > > That's today's trivia question, now get back to work :) too easy awk = "Aho Weinberger and Kernighan" This language was named by its authors, Al Aho, Peter Weinberger and Brian Kernighan. grep = "Global Regular Expression Print" http://www.faqs.org/faqs/unix-faq/faq/part1/section-3.html its a public holiday in sa today howard so i dont have to :-p cheers brenda -- Brenda Aynsley, FACS Chairman ACS SA http://www.acs.org.au/ Mobile:+61(0) 412 662 988 || Skype: callto://baynsley Phone: +61(0) 8 8357 8844 Fax: +61(0) 8 8272 7486 Oz Business Partners http://www.ozbusinesspartners.com/ From brd at iimetro.com.au Mon May 16 12:34:40 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Mon May 16 12:34:54 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> <20050515223316.GN19396@cyber.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050516103451.01d7e928@popa.melbpc.org.au> <20050516010542.GP19396@cyber.com.au> <4287FAA8.6148367@iimetro.com.au> <20050516021013.GA19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <428806C0.9ECE4883@iimetro.com.au> Con Zymaris wrote: > Most Education departments are not seriously investigating this new > technology. I therefore claim (and state so publicly,) that they are > either professionally negligent or substantially biased. Take your pick. I pick substantially biased. How much do you suppose it would cost an Education Department to investigate the cost of change? They probably have a fear of having to retrain their users, change the formats of existing documents, have difficulty with interchanging documents with other organisations etc etc. Their fear might be irrational and unfounded, but it is going to cost them to allay that fear. And considering how most organisations are stripped down to the basics in order to be competitive they probably have far more important activities than opening a can of worms like FOSS. I don't support the Microsoft monopoly, cracking it will be difficult and likely to come under the radar (or from left field - pick your own metaphor). The VHS tape monopoly was not overturned by a better tape system it was the DVD that did it. -- Cynic, n: a blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be. -- Ambrose Bierce Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From conz at cyber.com.au Mon May 16 12:37:53 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Mon May 16 12:38:01 2005 Subject: [LINK] computers in schools and uni's and open source In-Reply-To: <428800F0.4020301@gmail.com> References: <428800F0.4020301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050516023753.GE19396@cyber.com.au> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 12:09:52PM +1000, Doug Moncur wrote: ... > Another uni in the UK started giving students open office cd's when they > turned up at the start of the year, the rationale being that they could > save the cost of word, yet save their files in a format compatible with > departmental essay standards. The use of open office by students was > underwhelming. That may be so. But Unis are different to schools. In schools as in most corporates, you can force the issue: "Here is your desktop, with 100 applications which we will teach you throughout the years. Use it. Shut up." Linux can fit that slot for 90% of school computers better than Windows. And just as Windows is forced on students now, so can Linux in future. > > It's not difficult to see why - students end up with a massive post > graduation debt these days. That's why they go for more vocational/goal > oriented subjects where they can make money. Likewise if these employers > want Office skills it sure as hell is M$ and OO they mean. This is all correct, but schools are not vocationally oriented. TAFEs and some Unis are. Schools will teach with software which will essentially be obsolete by the time the kids reach anywhere near a workplace. -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From conz at cyber.com.au Mon May 16 12:40:26 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Mon May 16 12:40:31 2005 Subject: [LINK] Uni's aren't so different to schools In-Reply-To: References: <20050516011752.GA29679@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <20050516022832.GC19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <20050516024026.GF19396@cyber.com.au> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 12:32:37PM +1000, r.polanskis@uws.edu.au wrote: > On Mon, 16 May 2005, Con Zymaris wrote: > > > I'm curious. > > > > How much does this spend of proprietary software (such > > as Microsoft, Adobe etc) which can be comfortably replaced by commodity, > > zero cost software? > > Most of the IT software budget goes on COTS products. Officially, > there is "no in house" development of products. I do not know the > exact costs and am probably not allowed to say in any case! Can you find out? > > Reliance on OSS products is a last resort when nothing else works. > In fact here at they will continue to use > products that don't fulfil the purpose they were purchased for > until kingdom come because it would be a loss of face otherwise.... > What is the title of the person who makes the decisions on this? I like to go and talk to the right people straight from the start, but I wont get you to release their name. -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From conz at cyber.com.au Mon May 16 12:44:52 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Mon May 16 12:44:56 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <428806C0.9ECE4883@iimetro.com.au> References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> <20050515223316.GN19396@cyber.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050516103451.01d7e928@popa.melbpc.org.au> <20050516010542.GP19396@cyber.com.au> <4287FAA8.6148367@iimetro.com.au> <20050516021013.GA19396@cyber.com.au> <428806C0.9ECE4883@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <20050516024452.GG19396@cyber.com.au> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 12:34:40PM +1000, Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > Con Zymaris wrote: > > > Most Education departments are not seriously investigating this new > > technology. I therefore claim (and state so publicly,) that they are > > either professionally negligent or substantially biased. Take your pick. > > I pick substantially biased. I agree. > > How much do you suppose it would cost an Education Department to > investigate the cost of change? Stuff all. > > They probably have a fear of having to retrain their users, change the > formats of existing documents, have difficulty with interchanging > documents with other organisations etc etc. Some costs. But they do similar every Windows refresh cycle happens. > > Their fear might be irrational and unfounded, but it is going to cost > them to allay that fear. And considering how most organisations are > stripped down to the basics in order to be competitive they probably > have far more important activities than opening a can of worms like > FOSS. I can live with that. > > I don't support the Microsoft monopoly, cracking it will be difficult > and likely to come under the radar (or from left field - pick your own It's my job to not only hoist this topic onto the rader, but the paint it with high-reflection metallic paint so that it sticks out like a sledgehammered thumb. -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From brd at iimetro.com.au Mon May 16 12:46:02 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Mon May 16 12:46:12 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> <20050515223316.GN19396@cyber.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050516103451.01d7e928@popa.melbpc.org.au> <4287FCE7.2000404@lannet.com.au> <4288032B.C9F53731@iimetro.com.au> <428805AC.20202@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <4288096A.42D5BE47@iimetro.com.au> Howard Lowndes wrote: > > You cheated. You were supposed to know that off the top of your head :) How do you know I didn't know it? It was quicker to cut and paste than write it out from scratch. Actually I did know grep, but not awk. -- UNIX is basically a simple operating system, but you have to be a genius to understand the simplicity. -- Dennis Ritchie Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From conz at cyber.com.au Mon May 16 12:47:52 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Mon May 16 12:47:59 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <428800DC.9020503@lannet.com.au> References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> <20050515223316.GN19396@cyber.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050516103451.01d7e928@popa.melbpc.org.au> <20050516010542.GP19396@cyber.com.au> <428800DC.9020503@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <20050516024752.GH19396@cyber.com.au> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 12:09:32PM +1000, Howard Lowndes wrote: ... > >The people I've spoken to in that space specifically were _not_ keen in > >learning more about OpenOffice.org etc. They were scared of mentioning it > >to their constituent schools in case Microsoft found out. > > Mind you, if M$ were to be challenged then they would probably come in > with massive licence cost undercutting, and, because it is a licence fee > and not a product cost, they might even get away with it under TPA - but > perhaps not under competition policy. I _want_ Microsoft to suggest a massive licence cost undercutting. As a matter of fact, I want Microsoft to be asked to _pay_ the Departments to have them continue using its software. >From the whitepaper link I sent earlier: Proposed Solution #2: Increase Negotiative Leverage =================================================== If in the short term it is considered difficult to make a quick move to open source, then the vendors of the proprietary software should be asked to nullify the licence costs of their software to the schools and further, to assist in the extremely high maintenance and support costs of such software. The Departments of Education are in an excellent position to leverage the fact that vendors like Microsoft abhor students learning on alternatives like Linux and OpenOffice.org1 The Departments can use this in negotiations with the vendor. It should be possible to impress upon the vendor that having the Department switch to Linux would be a disaster for the vendor. The message from the Departments of Education to vendors like Microsoft should thus be very clear: "Microsoft, it costs the Department of Education a large sum of money to maintain and support your complex and insecure software. If you don't help us defray these costs soon, by reducing the licence fees to zero and covering $20 million per year for the ongoing pain of supporting your products, we will move to alternatives such as Linux and OpenOffice.org even faster than planned." Microsoft may baulk at saying 'yes' to the first few Departments that try this, but even though they will fear the Domino Effect2 that saying 'yes' will generate in the region and internationally, may eventually concede. This is because the potential loss for Microsoft of having millions of Australian schoolchildren enter the workforce fully versed in Linux and open source software, is immense. -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Mon May 16 12:49:05 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Mon May 16 12:49:43 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <20050516021013.GA19396@cyber.com.au> References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> <20050515223316.GN19396@cyber.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050516103451.01d7e928@popa.melbpc.org.au> <20050516010542.GP19396@cyber.com.au> <4287FAA8.6148367@iimetro.com.au> <20050516021013.GA19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20050516124610.01e52d80@popa.melbpc.org.au> At 12:10 PM 16/05/2005, Con Zymaris wrote: >Think of it this way. Even if, first up, migrating to Linux/FOSS is more >expensive than the status quo, by the second and third refresh cycle, you >are saving money hand over fist. Remember, I can show you a 75% reduction >in TCO by moving to locked-down Linux/FOSS. Old Chinese proverb: every journey starts with a single step. How about 'selling' the idea of having one classroom, probably the computer science area, with a *nix install as a real vocational skill? Since FOSS is developing more and more, it seems that it would be a good career move for younguns to get some experience. Let the kids have an old lab and DIY to their hearts' content? Then get the business students to do a cost efficiency study of the changed environment, let the kids teach the other kids in the school, turn it into a big project. Takes the pressure off the IT managers, puts a vocational slant on the whole thing, and, gees, teaches the students something as well! Done and dusted. The invoice is in the mail. Jan JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From conz at cyber.com.au Mon May 16 12:58:21 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Mon May 16 12:58:28 2005 Subject: [LINK] Re: Uni's aren't so different to schools In-Reply-To: <42880551.2040102@iss.net.au> References: <20050516011752.GA29679@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <20050516012430.GR19396@cyber.com.au> <42880551.2040102@iss.net.au> Message-ID: <20050516025821.GI19396@cyber.com.au> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 11:58:33AM +0930, Brenda Aynsley wrote: > > A significant and very real problem is support. > > If not the reality of support the perception that the support is either > not available or very expensive or the learning curve is too steep when > viewed against the demands on linux practitioner's time. After all we > live in a world of D-I-Y. This is a bogus concept. You either have staff who can do support or not. If your staff can't do support for your required IT platforms, sack them and hire ones who can. Also, what if I can offer you a zero-admin solution? No desktop support needed. Does that change the equation? ... > Whilst the appeal of free/low cost software, off the MS upgrade > treadmill is attractive to almost everyone until there is 'first level' > support resources in the community which will provide reassurance that > they can use linux on the desktop, there wont be a great deal of > incentive to mums and dads to make the switch. Why on earth would or should the 'community' need to provide support for Linux/FOSS for schools and for Unis? These places have hired staff to handle all this. This is what happens with Windows. This is how it should happen with Linux/FOSS. No difference, except that you need 75% fewer techs. > > Now some would argue that its the corporate world that we need to > convince to make the switch to linux, and I dont for a minute disagree We will convince them to switch to Linux too. This isn't an all-or-nothing thing. The battle will be on very single front we can tear open. ... > But we have to get people past the linux geekiness - perception or > reality. Every linux person I know sits at a linux destop and > immediately opens a terminal and starts banging away at the CLI. No we don't. As I said: "Here is your desktop, with 100 applications which we will teach you throughout the years. Use it. Shut up." No convincing of any mums, dads, students or pets necessary. This is exactly what happens now with Windows and no one cares about the complaints arising. > > Wow now that's a good way to win over every user corporate or home based > NOT. I don't want to win them over. That policy is doomed to failure. I want to win their bean counters over: "Your CIO is costing you $2.4 million per year needlessly because he will not investigate newer, cheaper solutions to Microsoft. Your CIO is either inept or on the take." -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From cas at taz.net.au Mon May 16 13:06:18 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Mon May 16 13:04:44 2005 Subject: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft In-Reply-To: References: <4287C504.6070500@ozemail.com.au> <4287D0DD.2050006@ramin.com.au> <20050516000215.GY18150@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <20050516030618.GA9771@taz.net.au> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 11:22:59AM +1000, Antony Barry wrote: > On 16 May 2005, at 10:02 AM, Craig Sanders wrote: > > >the purpose of the "future fund" is to get rid of the embarassing > >budget surpluses so that nobody asks difficult questions like "if > >we have such huge surpluses, why don't we spend it on schools, > >hospitals, or other services for the public? in fact, why are we > >cutting services when we have such huge surpluses?". > > Actually its not. actually, it is. fixing up the public service superannuation mess is just a handy excuse. a very convenient financial "black hole" which can be made to look as big as is needed to eliminate any amount of embarassing surplus. then it isn't as obvious that cutting and underfunding essential services is the result of insane attachment to bogus ideology rather than practical necessity. > The Commonwealth set up a generous superannuation scheme 50 odd years > ago for its own employees without putting enough money aside to pay > the pensions when they came due. They had to be funded out of the > current budget i.e. normal taxation revenue. This was pretty stupid > and the insurance industry has been saying for years they had to do > something. So now they have. I am currently paid by that fund, now > ComSuper. it may have been a stupid thing to do in the first place, but there's no sign that future governments will be unable to pay the super obligations, and thus no compelling need to set aside a "future fund" for just this single, fairly minor issue. > They could have called it "Fix the stupid superannuation error fund" or > "Public servants pension fund" but "Future fund" sound SO much better > and they will have a HUGE amount of money to move around for investment > purposes. This is good. it'll be good for the finance industry who will get to play with it (and rake off a management fee). it won't be any good for anyone else. > It's also good that my pension will continue to be paid :-) yes, but there wasn't any serious danger that it wouldn't be paid. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From lannet at lannet.com.au Mon May 16 13:22:09 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Mon May 16 13:23:03 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <20050516024752.GH19396@cyber.com.au> References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> <20050515223316.GN19396@cyber.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050516103451.01d7e928@popa.melbpc.org.au> <20050516010542.GP19396@cyber.com.au> <428800DC.9020503@lannet.com.au> <20050516024752.GH19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <428811E1.3060506@lannet.com.au> Con Zymaris wrote: > On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 12:09:32PM +1000, Howard Lowndes wrote: > > ... > > >>>The people I've spoken to in that space specifically were _not_ keen in >>>learning more about OpenOffice.org etc. They were scared of mentioning it >>>to their constituent schools in case Microsoft found out. >> >>Mind you, if M$ were to be challenged then they would probably come in >>with massive licence cost undercutting, and, because it is a licence fee >>and not a product cost, they might even get away with it under TPA - but >>perhaps not under competition policy. > > > I _want_ Microsoft to suggest a massive licence cost undercutting. > > As a matter of fact, I want Microsoft to be asked to _pay_ the Departments > to have them continue using its software. > >>From the whitepaper link I sent earlier: > > Proposed Solution #2: Increase Negotiative Leverage > =================================================== > If in the short term it is considered difficult to make a quick move to > open source, then the vendors of the proprietary software should be asked > to nullify the licence costs of their software to the schools and further, > to assist in the extremely high maintenance and support costs of such > software. > > The Departments of Education are in an excellent position to leverage the > fact that vendors like Microsoft abhor students learning on alternatives > like Linux and OpenOffice.org1 > > The Departments can use this in negotiations with the vendor. It should be > possible to impress upon the vendor that having the Department switch to > Linux would be a disaster for the vendor. The message from the Departments > of Education to vendors like Microsoft should thus be very clear: > > "Microsoft, it costs the Department of Education a large sum of money to > maintain and support your complex and insecure software. If you don't > help us defray these costs soon, by reducing the licence fees to zero and > covering $20 million per year for the ongoing pain of supporting your > products, we will move to alternatives such as Linux and OpenOffice.org > even faster than planned." > > Microsoft may baulk at saying 'yes' to the first few Departments that try > this, but even though they will fear the Domino Effect2 that saying 'yes' > will generate in the region and internationally, may eventually concede. > > This is because the potential loss for Microsoft of having millions of > Australian schoolchildren enter the workforce fully versed in Linux and > open source software, is immense. And this will have an even more negative impact on the take up of FOSS, unless there is some way that M$ can be shamed by being dragged thru the courts should they adopt such a policy. The publicity that they would gain by if they got away with the policy would make them look like the White Knight. > > > > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From lannet at lannet.com.au Mon May 16 13:26:11 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Mon May 16 13:27:25 2005 Subject: [LINK] Re: Uni's aren't so different to schools In-Reply-To: <20050516025821.GI19396@cyber.com.au> References: <20050516011752.GA29679@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <20050516012430.GR19396@cyber.com.au> <42880551.2040102@iss.net.au> <20050516025821.GI19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <428812D3.4030502@lannet.com.au> Con Zymaris wrote: > On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 11:58:33AM +0930, Brenda Aynsley wrote: > >>A significant and very real problem is support. >> >>If not the reality of support the perception that the support is either >>not available or very expensive or the learning curve is too steep when >>viewed against the demands on linux practitioner's time. After all we >>live in a world of D-I-Y. > > > This is a bogus concept. You either have staff who can do support or not. > > If your staff can't do support for your required IT platforms, sack them > and hire ones who can. > > Also, what if I can offer you a zero-admin solution? No desktop support > needed. Does that change the equation? ...or even a remote access support option from the local FOSS shop. That way they only need to pay for work actually undertaken. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From bpa at iss.net.au Mon May 16 13:29:29 2005 From: bpa at iss.net.au (Brenda Aynsley) Date: Mon May 16 13:29:42 2005 Subject: using FOSS in the home as a start ... was [LINK] Re: Uni's aren't so different to schools In-Reply-To: <20050516025821.GI19396@cyber.com.au> References: <20050516011752.GA29679@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <20050516012430.GR19396@cyber.com.au> <42880551.2040102@iss.net.au> <20050516025821.GI19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <42881399.1070506@iss.net.au> Con Zymaris wrote: > On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 11:58:33AM +0930, Brenda Aynsley wrote: > >>A significant and very real problem is support. >> >>If not the reality of support the perception that the support is either >>not available or very expensive or the learning curve is too steep when >>viewed against the demands on linux practitioner's time. After all we >>live in a world of D-I-Y. > > > This is a bogus concept. You either have staff who can do support or not. perhaps i should have changed the subject line. I am not talking about unis or corporates. I used the exchange in my last post to suggest that a strategy to get into unis and corporates could start at the home user. cheers brenda -- Brenda Aynsley, FACS Chairman ACS SA http://www.acs.org.au/ Mobile:+61(0) 412 662 988 || Skype: callto://baynsley Phone: +61(0) 8 8357 8844 Fax: +61(0) 8 8272 7486 Oz Business Partners http://www.ozbusinesspartners.com/ From doug.moncur at gmail.com Mon May 16 13:29:49 2005 From: doug.moncur at gmail.com (doug moncur) Date: Mon May 16 13:30:01 2005 Subject: [LINK] computers in schools and uni's and open source Message-ID: On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 12:09:52PM +1000, Doug Moncur wrote: ... >> Another uni in the UK started giving students open office cd's when they >> turned up at the start of the year, the rationale being that they could >> save the cost of word, yet save their files in a format compatible with >> departmental essay standards. The use of open office by students was >> underwhelming. >That may be so. But Unis are different to schools. In schools as in most >corporates, you can force the issue: > >"Here is your desktop, with 100 applications which we will teach you >throughout the years. Use it. Shut up." This is true. Unfortunately the Microsoft-only culture and the vocational demand for M$ skills courses creates a self fulfilling prophecy as decision makers and support staff only know M$ applications and solutions and tend to select what they're comfortable with, and so it goes [...] >> >> It's not difficult to see why - students end up with a massive post >> graduation debt these days. That's why they go for more vocational/goal >> oriented subjects where they can make money. Likewise if these employers >> want Office skills it sure as hell is M$ and OO they mean. > This is all correct, but schools are not vocationally oriented. TAFEs and > some Unis are. Not explicitly, but a lot have this not quite explicily articulated aim of teaching students 'skills for the real world' along the way - which people see as M$. You and I and quite a few other link subscribers might think otherwise but nationally, we're in a minority >Schools will teach with software which will essentially be obsolete by the >time the kids reach anywhere near a workplace. Year 12, Year 13? -Doug -- 'Programmer /n./ A red-eyed, mumbling mammal capable of conversing with inanimate objects.' - anonymous From lannet at lannet.com.au Mon May 16 13:41:55 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Mon May 16 13:43:42 2005 Subject: [LINK] Legality of blind faxes Message-ID: <42881683.1020408@lannet.com.au> Does anyone have any idea about the legality of faxes being sent without the header identification. I have just received one from a client without the header ident and then realised that it had not come from their local fax machine (which does have a header) but via their accounting software supplier - it was a remittance advice. Given that the only data in the info is a date/time stamp and it is UTC, it looks like it might have come from the UK. The fax call, which goes thru my Asterisk system, certainly didn't have any Caller Line Identification. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From conz at cyber.com.au Mon May 16 13:54:16 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Mon May 16 13:54:24 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <428811E1.3060506@lannet.com.au> References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> <20050515223316.GN19396@cyber.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050516103451.01d7e928@popa.melbpc.org.au> <20050516010542.GP19396@cyber.com.au> <428800DC.9020503@lannet.com.au> <20050516024752.GH19396@cyber.com.au> <428811E1.3060506@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <20050516035416.GL19396@cyber.com.au> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 01:22:09PM +1000, Howard Lowndes wrote: ... > >Microsoft may baulk at saying 'yes' to the first few Departments that try > >this, but even though they will fear the Domino Effect2 that saying 'yes' > >will generate in the region and internationally, may eventually concede. > > > >This is because the potential loss for Microsoft of having millions of > >Australian schoolchildren enter the workforce fully versed in Linux and > >open source software, is immense. > > And this will have an even more negative impact on the take up of FOSS, How will it be different to waht we have at present, except for Microsoft being out of pocket $150 million per year in Australia alone? As a competitor, I can live with that. Much better than the status quo. It also keeps Microsoft on its toes; and in order to retain the threat, Education will need to be ever ready with the switch strategy. -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From conz at cyber.com.au Mon May 16 13:54:56 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Mon May 16 13:55:01 2005 Subject: [LINK] Re: Uni's aren't so different to schools In-Reply-To: <428812D3.4030502@lannet.com.au> References: <20050516011752.GA29679@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <20050516012430.GR19396@cyber.com.au> <42880551.2040102@iss.net.au> <20050516025821.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428812D3.4030502@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <20050516035456.GM19396@cyber.com.au> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 01:26:11PM +1000, Howard Lowndes wrote: > > > Con Zymaris wrote: > >On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 11:58:33AM +0930, Brenda Aynsley wrote: > > > >>A significant and very real problem is support. > >> > >>If not the reality of support the perception that the support is either > >>not available or very expensive or the learning curve is too steep when > >>viewed against the demands on linux practitioner's time. After all we > >>live in a world of D-I-Y. > > > > > >This is a bogus concept. You either have staff who can do support or not. > > > >If your staff can't do support for your required IT platforms, sack them > >and hire ones who can. > > > >Also, what if I can offer you a zero-admin solution? No desktop support > >needed. Does that change the equation? > > ...or even a remote access support option from the local FOSS shop. > That way they only need to pay for work actually undertaken. Nothing beats a zero-admin solution. -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From conz at cyber.com.au Mon May 16 13:57:09 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Mon May 16 13:57:15 2005 Subject: using FOSS in the home as a start ... was [LINK] Re: Uni's aren't so different to schools In-Reply-To: <42881399.1070506@iss.net.au> References: <20050516011752.GA29679@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <20050516012430.GR19396@cyber.com.au> <42880551.2040102@iss.net.au> <20050516025821.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <42881399.1070506@iss.net.au> Message-ID: <20050516035708.GN19396@cyber.com.au> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 12:59:29PM +0930, Brenda Aynsley wrote: > Con Zymaris wrote: > >On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 11:58:33AM +0930, Brenda Aynsley wrote: > > > >>A significant and very real problem is support. > >> > >>If not the reality of support the perception that the support is either > >>not available or very expensive or the learning curve is too steep when > >>viewed against the demands on linux practitioner's time. After all we > >>live in a world of D-I-Y. > > > > > >This is a bogus concept. You either have staff who can do support or not. > > > perhaps i should have changed the subject line. I am not talking about > unis or corporates. I used the exchange in my last post to suggest that > a strategy to get into unis and corporates could start at the home user. To which my response is a quote: "... we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills;" -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From cas at taz.net.au Mon May 16 13:59:12 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Mon May 16 13:57:23 2005 Subject: [LINK] Stopping "backscatter" emails - to addresses used by malware In-Reply-To: References: <20050515221221.GV18150@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <20050516035912.GB9771@taz.net.au> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 11:10:45AM +1000, Stilgherrian wrote: > On 16/5/05 8:12 AM, "Craig Sanders" wrote: > > most people who THINK they need a backup MX don't. secondary MX > > are essentially obsolete now, and often cause more problems (e.g. > > backscatter) than they're supposed to solve - especially since they are > > targetted by spamware & viruses. backup/secondary MX are useful only in > > very specific and rare circumstances these days. > > Out of curiosity, what are these circumstances? - uucp, or other uncommon transport protocol. - firewalled primary (e.g. firewalled by ISP because it is an open relay) - other special/unusual cases. actually, the first two above don't really require backup MX. it's less hassle to just have a primary MX and a transport table entry. the most common case is actually load-balancing rather than backup. e.g large corporate or ISP mail server with multiple MX servers, each of which do spam/virus filtering before forwarding the mail onto the back-end mailserver. in short, if you think you need a backup MX then 99.999999% of the time you don't. if you don't know precisely WHY you need one then you definitely don't. even if you do know precisely why you need it, there are probably better ways of doing what you need. the unfortunately still common recommendation to have a backup MX is obsolete advice from a long-gone era. it used to be good advice. now it is very bad advice. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From tal at pacific.net.au Mon May 16 14:05:59 2005 From: tal at pacific.net.au (tal) Date: Mon May 16 14:08:22 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <428811E1.3060506@lannet.com.au> References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> <20050515223316.GN19396@cyber.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050516103451.01d7e928@popa.melbpc.org.au> <20050516010542.GP19396@cyber.com.au> <428800DC.9020503@lannet.com.au> <20050516024752.GH19396@cyber.com.au> <428811E1.3060506@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <1116216359.15642.5.camel@canetoad> for FOSS to win, it can't just match M$, it has to exceed it. - Firefox is kicking butt, and M$ are worried, because it's way better than IE, and the next IE will still have the same flaws, and just a few extra features, which may not be enough. - Gnome/KDE/Enlightenment arguably don't match Windows desktop, or at best come close, M$ loses no sleep there. people won't switch for no perceived advantage, being the same but cheaper or more reliable just wont do it, it has to be BETTER. Tim Lister South Sydney Greens (02)9557 4050 timlister@webspinning.org http://ssg.nsw.greens.org.au "Think Globally, Act Locally" From conz at cyber.com.au Mon May 16 14:22:31 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Mon May 16 14:22:45 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <1116216359.15642.5.camel@canetoad> References: <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> <20050515223316.GN19396@cyber.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050516103451.01d7e928@popa.melbpc.org.au> <20050516010542.GP19396@cyber.com.au> <428800DC.9020503@lannet.com.au> <20050516024752.GH19396@cyber.com.au> <428811E1.3060506@lannet.com.au> <1116216359.15642.5.camel@canetoad> Message-ID: <20050516042231.GP19396@cyber.com.au> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 02:05:59PM +1000, tal wrote: > for FOSS to win, it can't just match M$, it has to exceed it. Absolute fallacy and red herring. FOSS has been more than good enough for 5 years. It hasn't made a difference. FOSS can also beat Microsoft til the sun goes nova. That wont remove Windows from school desktops. ... > > people won't switch for no perceived advantage, being the same but > cheaper or more reliable just wont do it, it has to be BETTER. People will be forced to switch when the bean counters rap them over the knuckles for wasting millions. -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From conz at cyber.com.au Mon May 16 14:28:33 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Mon May 16 14:28:38 2005 Subject: [LINK] computers in schools and uni's and open source In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050516042833.GQ19396@cyber.com.au> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 01:29:49PM +1000, doug moncur wrote: > On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 12:09:52PM +1000, Doug Moncur wrote: > >That may be so. But Unis are different to schools. In schools as in most > >corporates, you can force the issue: > > > >"Here is your desktop, with 100 applications which we will teach you > >throughout the years. Use it. Shut up." > > This is true. Unfortunately the Microsoft-only culture and the > vocational demand for > M$ skills courses creates a self fulfilling prophecy as decision > makers and support staff only know M$ applications and solutions and > tend to select what they're comfortable with, and so it goes Schools are not there to teach school kids to learn Word. They are there to teach writing. It may just happen to be on a word processor. If you want to be taught Word, go to a TAFE. > Not explicitly, but a lot have this not quite explicily articulated > aim of teaching > students 'skills for the real world' along the way - which people see as M$. > > You and I and quite a few other link subscribers might think otherwise > but nationally, we're in a minority > > >Schools will teach with software which will essentially be obsolete by the > >time the kids reach anywhere near a workplace. > > Year 12, Year 13? Even then. Very few kids don't do a form of tertiary education, especially ones doing work which require some strong contact with PCs. More important, there are very strong pedagogical reasons for introducing FOSS into schools. The argument is simple and convinving. "Teach kids to word-process with Word and they will learn Word. Teach kids to word-process with Word and OpenOffice.org and they will learn word-processing." -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From bpa at iss.net.au Mon May 16 14:31:31 2005 From: bpa at iss.net.au (Brenda Aynsley) Date: Mon May 16 14:31:45 2005 Subject: using FOSS in the home as a start ... was [LINK] Re: Uni's aren't so different to schools In-Reply-To: <20050516035708.GN19396@cyber.com.au> References: <20050516011752.GA29679@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <20050516012430.GR19396@cyber.com.au> <42880551.2040102@iss.net.au> <20050516025821.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <42881399.1070506@iss.net.au> <20050516035708.GN19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <42882223.9000300@iss.net.au> Con Zymaris wrote: > > To which my response is a quote: > > "... we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing > grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight > in the hills;" > but that's the point there isnt much fighting on all fronts and there's no apparent strategy to undertake an all fronts approach. cheers brenda -- Brenda Aynsley, FACS Chairman ACS SA http://www.acs.org.au/ Mobile:+61(0) 412 662 988 || Skype: callto://baynsley Phone: +61(0) 8 8357 8844 Fax: +61(0) 8 8272 7486 Oz Business Partners http://www.ozbusinesspartners.com/ From conz at cyber.com.au Mon May 16 14:46:47 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Mon May 16 14:46:55 2005 Subject: using FOSS in the home as a start ... was [LINK] Re: Uni's aren't so different to schools In-Reply-To: <42882223.9000300@iss.net.au> References: <20050516011752.GA29679@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <20050516012430.GR19396@cyber.com.au> <42880551.2040102@iss.net.au> <20050516025821.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <42881399.1070506@iss.net.au> <20050516035708.GN19396@cyber.com.au> <42882223.9000300@iss.net.au> Message-ID: <20050516044647.GT19396@cyber.com.au> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 02:01:31PM +0930, Brenda Aynsley wrote: > Con Zymaris wrote: > > > > >To which my response is a quote: > > > > "... we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing > > grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight > > in the hills;" > > > > > but that's the point there isnt much fighting on all fronts and there's I disagree. There is plenty of action going on. You just know where to look. > no apparent strategy to undertake an all fronts approach. Says who? ;-) If you want to know more about the strategy, ask. -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From doug.moncur at gmail.com Mon May 16 15:05:04 2005 From: doug.moncur at gmail.com (doug moncur) Date: Mon May 16 15:05:20 2005 Subject: [LINK] computers in schools and uni's and open source Message-ID: [...] > "Teach kids to word-process with Word and they will learn Word. Teach > kids to word-process with Word and OpenOffice.org and they will learn > word-processing." I agree with you. I was more interested in making explicit the reasons why educational bodies (schools, TAFE, Uni) don't adopt floss despite the obvious cost advantages. As I said in my original posting I have direct experience of this. The reasons may be summarisable as FUD, but more detail than that is needed to identify the origins of the fear, uncertainty and doubt, and combat them -Doug -- 'Programmer /n./ A red-eyed, mumbling mammal capable of conversing with inanimate objects.' - anonymous From conz at cyber.com.au Mon May 16 15:07:41 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Mon May 16 15:07:49 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20050516124610.01e52d80@popa.melbpc.org.au> References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> <20050515223316.GN19396@cyber.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050516103451.01d7e928@popa.melbpc.org.au> <20050516010542.GP19396@cyber.com.au> <4287FAA8.6148367@iimetro.com.au> <20050516021013.GA19396@cyber.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050516124610.01e52d80@popa.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <20050516050741.GU19396@cyber.com.au> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 12:49:05PM +1000, Jan Whitaker wrote: > At 12:10 PM 16/05/2005, Con Zymaris wrote: > >Think of it this way. Even if, first up, migrating to Linux/FOSS is more > >expensive than the status quo, by the second and third refresh cycle, you > >are saving money hand over fist. Remember, I can show you a 75% reduction > >in TCO by moving to locked-down Linux/FOSS. > > Old Chinese proverb: every journey starts with a single step. How about We began this journey with single steps 10 years ago. I want to see some wholesale leaping going on from hereon. As my colleagues will tell you, I am a very impatient person. I want it all, now. ;-) Tomorrow is another battle. > 'selling' the idea of having one classroom, probably the computer science > area, with a *nix install as a real vocational skill? Since FOSS is here's the rub. DET will not _allow_ us to take a classroom and morph it into Linux. Further, why should it be done for free? They don't deploy Microsoft solutions for zero cost. > developing more and more, it seems that it would be a good career move for > younguns to get some experience. Let the kids have an old lab and DIY to > their hearts' content? Then get the business students to do a cost > efficiency study of the changed environment, let the kids teach the other > kids in the school, turn it into a big project. Takes the pressure off the > IT managers, puts a vocational slant on the whole thing, and, gees, teaches > the students something as well! All too much hard work. My path is simple. Use every technique necessary to spotlight the bias inherent in DET's existing policies. This approach can deliver fruit in mintes or hours. I will get bored waiting for months and years. You would be amazed at some of the private emails I've had on this topic. -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From conz at cyber.com.au Mon May 16 15:09:16 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Mon May 16 15:10:12 2005 Subject: [LINK] computers in schools and uni's and open source In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050516050916.GV19396@cyber.com.au> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 03:05:04PM +1000, doug moncur wrote: > [...] > > > "Teach kids to word-process with Word and they will learn Word. Teach > > kids to word-process with Word and OpenOffice.org and they will learn > > word-processing." > > I agree with you. I was more interested in making explicit the reasons > why educational bodies (schools, TAFE, Uni) don't adopt floss despite > the obvious cost advantages. As I said in my original posting I have > direct experience of this. > > The reasons may be summarisable as FUD, but more detail than that is > needed to identify the origins of the fear, uncertainty and doubt, and > combat them Accepted. I'm working towards a new paradigm - by not adopting, or at least _seriously_ considering and piloting FOSS, you are now limiting your career. -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au Mon May 16 15:11:46 2005 From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee) Date: Mon May 16 15:11:54 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <20050516050741.GU19396@cyber.com.au> References: <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> <20050515223316.GN19396@cyber.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050516103451.01d7e928@popa.melbpc.org.au> <20050516010542.GP19396@cyber.com.au> <4287FAA8.6148367@iimetro.com.au> <20050516021013.GA19396@cyber.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050516124610.01e52d80@popa.melbpc.org.au> <20050516050741.GU19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <20050516051146.GA21022@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> Con, have you got any journalists interested? This would be an ongoing story, worthy of one of those "the PAPER investigates" series... You might want to pitch it to them directly -- some IT journalists are on link, but not all of them by a long shot. Danny. ---------------------------------------------------------- http://dannyreviews.com/ - over eight hundred book reviews http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog ---------------------------------------------------------- From conz at cyber.com.au Mon May 16 15:13:41 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Mon May 16 15:14:09 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <20050516051146.GA21022@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> References: <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> <20050515223316.GN19396@cyber.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050516103451.01d7e928@popa.melbpc.org.au> <20050516010542.GP19396@cyber.com.au> <4287FAA8.6148367@iimetro.com.au> <20050516021013.GA19396@cyber.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050516124610.01e52d80@popa.melbpc.org.au> <20050516050741.GU19396@cyber.com.au> <20050516051146.GA21022@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <20050516051341.GW19396@cyber.com.au> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 03:11:46PM +1000, Danny Yee wrote: > Con, have you got any journalists interested? This would be an ongoing > story, worthy of one of those "the PAPER investigates" series... > > You might want to pitch it to them directly -- some IT journalists > are on link, but not all of them by a long shot. A press release to most Australian IT journos is going out in 15 mins. -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From chris at sw.oz.au Mon May 16 15:36:46 2005 From: chris at sw.oz.au (Chris Maltby) Date: Mon May 16 15:44:22 2005 Subject: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft In-Reply-To: References: <4287C504.6070500@ozemail.com.au> <4287D0DD.2050006@ramin.com.au> <20050516000215.GY18150@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <20050516053646.GJ22968@aurema.com> > On 16 May 2005, at 10:02 AM, Craig Sanders wrote: >>the purpose of the "future fund" is to get rid of the embarassing budget >>surpluses so that nobody asks difficult questions like "if we have such >>huge surpluses, why don't we spend it on schools, hospitals, or other >>services for the public? in fact, why are we cutting services when we >>have such huge surpluses?". On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 11:22:59AM +1000, Antony Barry wrote: > Actually its not. > > The Commonwealth set up a generous superannuation scheme 50 odd years > ago for its own employees without putting enough money aside to pay the > pensions when they came due. They had to be funded out of the current > budget i.e. normal taxation revenue. This was pretty stupid and the > insurance industry has been saying for years they had to do something. > So now they have. I am currently paid by that fund, now ComSuper. > > They could have called it "Fix the stupid superannuation error fund" or > "Public servants pension fund" but "Future fund" sound SO much better > and they will have a HUGE amount of money to move around for investment > purposes. This is good. It's also good that my pension will continue to > be paid :-) Craig is essentially right on this one. Tony's explanation is the government's spin. The heavy lifting on the so-called "defined benefit" super schemes was done by the previous government by closing them off to new applicants. From that point the blowout in liability was capped and could be budgeted for in the normal way. There is no danger that the remaining public service pensions will exceed revenue, and we can always raise taxes on pensioners if it does :-) The so-called "Future Fund" is another huge load of pork for the finance sector - just like the Telstra sell-off. We're talking hundreds of millions in fees. More even than a government ad campaign! Plus the danger that the government's ownership of large parcels of corporations will be used to subtly (or not so subtly) exert pressure on those corporations. Chris From r.polanskis at uws.edu.au Mon May 16 15:45:16 2005 From: r.polanskis at uws.edu.au (r.polanskis@uws.edu.au) Date: Mon May 16 15:46:20 2005 Subject: [LINK] computers in schools and uni's and open source In-Reply-To: <20050516050916.GV19396@cyber.com.au> References: <20050516050916.GV19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2005, Con Zymaris wrote: > I'm working towards a new paradigm - by not adopting, or at least > _seriously_ considering and piloting FOSS, you are now limiting your > career. Would you say the inverse was true? That by not considering or being operationally proficient in MS products and administration, you are now limiting your career. rachel -- Rachel Polanskis Systems Admin, University of Western Sydney ADD Werrington North Campus (+61 2) 9678 7291 "I have found the solution, Doctor. Knife them in the neck" - Leela, Dr Who "Who do you trust?" - John W Howard From conz at cyber.com.au Mon May 16 15:49:35 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Mon May 16 15:50:01 2005 Subject: [LINK] computers in schools and uni's and open source In-Reply-To: References: <20050516050916.GV19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <20050516054935.GZ19396@cyber.com.au> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 03:45:16PM +1000, r.polanskis@uws.edu.au wrote: > On Mon, 16 May 2005, Con Zymaris wrote: > > > I'm working towards a new paradigm - by not adopting, or at least > > _seriously_ considering and piloting FOSS, you are now limiting your > > career. > > Would you say the inverse was true? > > That by not considering or being operationally proficient in MS products > and administration, you are now limiting your career. We're not talking about 'knowing how to use Microsoft products'. We're talking about selecting them for deployment. And yes, right now in Education, by selecting to deploy Microsoft software you are part of a problem that costs Education $100 million per needlessly. This should be stomped on, and hard. -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From brd at iimetro.com.au Mon May 16 16:10:30 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Mon May 16 16:10:44 2005 Subject: [LINK] Mapping the Internet Evolution Message-ID: <42883956.EC625CF@iimetro.com.au> On Slashdot today in Science http://science.slashdot.org/ Mapping the Internet Evolution Posted by Zonk on Sunday May 15, @03:19PM from the take-a-left-at-amazon-and-then-a-right-past-fark dept. Shire writes "Science magazine is running a story on the DIMES project, which has ventured to map the structure and evolution of the Internet (PDF) using open source distributed clients in the style of SETI@Home and such. DIMES has already collected more than 40 Millions measurements which resulted in some nice pictures and several scientific presentations. Those who use traceroute may find it a useful (and colorful) alternative." referenced links: DIMES http://www.netdimes.org/ structure and evolution of the Internet http://netdimes.org/scienceMay05.pdf nice pictures http://www.netdimes.org/asmap.png http://www.netdimes.org/ipmap.png several scientific presentations http://www.netdimes.org/science.html -- My theory of evolution is that Darwin was adopted. -- Steven Wright Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From lannet at lannet.com.au Mon May 16 16:11:00 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Mon May 16 16:11:23 2005 Subject: [LINK] Stopping "backscatter" emails - to addresses used by malware In-Reply-To: <20050516035912.GB9771@taz.net.au> References: <20050515221221.GV18150@taz.net.au> <20050516035912.GB9771@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <42883974.6030801@lannet.com.au> Craig Sanders wrote: > On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 11:10:45AM +1000, Stilgherrian wrote: > >>On 16/5/05 8:12 AM, "Craig Sanders" wrote: >> >>>most people who THINK they need a backup MX don't. secondary MX >>>are essentially obsolete now, and often cause more problems (e.g. >>>backscatter) than they're supposed to solve - especially since they are >>>targetted by spamware & viruses. backup/secondary MX are useful only in >>>very specific and rare circumstances these days. >> >>Out of curiosity, what are these circumstances? > > > - uucp, or other uncommon transport protocol. > - firewalled primary (e.g. firewalled by ISP because it is an open relay) > - other special/unusual cases. I did have a situation where I needed a secondary MX for a client who moved premises and a certain large telco stuffed up their DSL connection for several days. I was hosting their secondary MX and gathered the otherwise retried emails. Before the 5 day timeout I extended the timeout on the secondary so that the emails were never lost, and I did that until a certain large telco got their act together. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From lannet at lannet.com.au Mon May 16 16:15:33 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Mon May 16 16:15:52 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <1116216359.15642.5.camel@canetoad> References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> <20050515223316.GN19396@cyber.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050516103451.01d7e928@popa.melbpc.org.au> <20050516010542.GP19396@cyber.com.au> <428800DC.9020503@lannet.com.au> <20050516024752.GH19396@cyber.com.au> <428811E1.3060506@lannet.com.au> <1116216359.15642.5.camel@canetoad> Message-ID: <42883A85.9050804@lannet.com.au> tal wrote: > for FOSS to win, it can't just match M$, it has to exceed it. > > - Firefox is kicking butt, and M$ are worried, because it's way better > than IE, and the next IE will still have the same flaws, and just a few > extra features, which may not be enough. > > - Gnome/KDE/Enlightenment arguably don't match Windows desktop, or at > best come close, M$ loses no sleep there. Frankly I believe that KDE kicks ass over G/E/W, but it is not so much pretty pretty as Windows. If the luser want pretty pretty then their needs are very shallow. > > people won't switch for no perceived advantage, being the same but > cheaper or more reliable just wont do it, it has to be BETTER. I guess the FOSS crunch time will be when/if Shorthorn makes it to market. I guess the new hardware requirements are really going to snap the poorer mass users up sharply. > > Tim Lister > South Sydney Greens > (02)9557 4050 > timlister@webspinning.org > http://ssg.nsw.greens.org.au > "Think Globally, Act Locally" > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From anthony.hornby at cdu.edu.au Mon May 16 16:16:22 2005 From: anthony.hornby at cdu.edu.au (anthony hornby) Date: Mon May 16 16:17:11 2005 Subject: [LINK] computers in schools and uni's and open source In-Reply-To: <20050516054935.GZ19396@cyber.com.au> References: <20050516050916.GV19396@cyber.com.au> <20050516054935.GZ19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <1116224182.16211.25.camel@styx.cdu.edu.au> Hi, I agree with the comments so far about the don't rock the boat mentality in education. You have to make a much harder case for anything thats not M$. A problem I have encountered is the "we'll use open source because its free ... for now ... and that means we don't have to support it properly" approach. eg we don't have resources to do task 'X' properly, so we'll put together a solution using open source - which because we can just grab the software of the net seems to mean we can implement it without any sort of implementation plan or business processes in place - we just 'chuck' it on the network. When (unsurprisingly) something goes wrong later, we put together a business case showing we need to get the 'right tools' for the job - invariably the M$ product for large pot-o-money. When it comes time to implement the M$ product there are all sorts of planning teams put together, risk assessments, audits etc etc and lots of highly paid consultants running around to help us implement it properly. The above points to bad IT management generally, but certainly in some of the places I have worked there seems to be a mentality that because its an open source product (and free) therefore it doesn't require the same sorts of quality control, support planning in your implementation etc etc etc that commercial software does. In fact the case is the opposite because every open source installation needs to be a shining example of why it does work to counteract all the FUD out there. Too many managers I have worked with seem to think of it as free as in beer, not free as in freedom. They see open source as a stop gap out of their current resourcing issue and not as a strategic long term solution. Maybe I've just had a worse run than most .... Anthony. On Mon, 2005-05-16 at 15:49 +1000, Con Zymaris wrote: > On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 03:45:16PM +1000, r.polanskis@uws.edu.au wrote: > > On Mon, 16 May 2005, Con Zymaris wrote: > > > > > I'm working towards a new paradigm - by not adopting, or at least > > > _seriously_ considering and piloting FOSS, you are now limiting your > > > career. > > > > Would you say the inverse was true? > > > > That by not considering or being operationally proficient in MS products > > and administration, you are now limiting your career. > > We're not talking about 'knowing how to use Microsoft products'. We're > talking about selecting them for deployment. > > And yes, right now in Education, by selecting to deploy Microsoft software > you are part of a problem that costs Education $100 million per > needlessly. This should be stomped on, and hard. > > -- Mr Anthony Hornby RHCE BIT ALIATEC Library Systems & Technology Coordinator Charles Darwin University | CRICOS 300K anthony.hornby@cdu.edu.au | office +61 8 89 466011 From doug.moncur at gmail.com Mon May 16 16:10:46 2005 From: doug.moncur at gmail.com (doug moncur) Date: Mon May 16 16:17:37 2005 Subject: [LINK] computers in schools and uni's and open source In-Reply-To: <200505160605.j4G65pds020228@anu.edu.au> References: <200505160605.j4G65pds020228@anu.edu.au> Message-ID: From: doug moncur To: r.polanskis@uws.edu.au Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 16:05:42 +1000 Subject: Re: Re: [LINK] computers in schools and uni's and open source >> I'm working towards a new paradigm - by not adopting, or at least >> _seriously_ considering and piloting FOSS, you are now limiting your >> career. > Would you say the inverse was true? > That by not considering or being operationally proficient in MS products > and administration, you are now limiting your career. Personal experience says yes - that's the problem with the self perpetuating nature of what is in many cases _effectively_ a single vendor world. Knowing about lots of things doesn't get you a job when all they want are M$ skills -Doug -- 'Programmer /n./ A red-eyed, mumbling mammal capable of conversing with inanimate objects.' - anonymous From lannet at lannet.com.au Mon May 16 16:24:47 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Mon May 16 16:25:32 2005 Subject: [LINK] computers in schools and uni's and open source In-Reply-To: <20050516050916.GV19396@cyber.com.au> References: <20050516050916.GV19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <42883CAF.4070001@lannet.com.au> Con Zymaris wrote: > On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 03:05:04PM +1000, doug moncur wrote: > >>The reasons may be summarisable as FUD, but more detail than that is >>needed to identify the origins of the fear, uncertainty and doubt, and >>combat them > > > Accepted. > > I'm working towards a new paradigm - by not adopting, or at least > _seriously_ considering and piloting FOSS, you are now limiting your > career. Agreement here, and I think the FOSS sysadmin is far more rounded in experience. One of the problems might just be the MCSE rent-a-mob who are fearful of their patch and currently have the ear of the decision makers. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From lannet at lannet.com.au Mon May 16 16:29:30 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Mon May 16 16:30:10 2005 Subject: [LINK] computers in schools and uni's and open source In-Reply-To: References: <20050516050916.GV19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <42883DCA.7010407@lannet.com.au> r.polanskis@uws.edu.au wrote: > On Mon, 16 May 2005, Con Zymaris wrote: > > >>I'm working towards a new paradigm - by not adopting, or at least >>_seriously_ considering and piloting FOSS, you are now limiting your >>career. > > > Would you say the inverse was true? > > That by not considering or being operationally proficient in MS products > and administration, you are now limiting your career. By not being operationally proficient - yes, but by not considering it - no. The FOSS movement is growing far faster than the M$ movement and I think when Longhorn gets to market M$ are really going to have to push hard to get even the biggest, wealthiest corps to move over to it. Watch out for _big_ discounts and market incentives on hardware. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From lannet at lannet.com.au Mon May 16 16:33:32 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Mon May 16 16:33:47 2005 Subject: [LINK] Mapping the Internet Evolution In-Reply-To: <42883956.EC625CF@iimetro.com.au> References: <42883956.EC625CF@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <42883EBC.6010702@lannet.com.au> In light of the noise today about FOSS (welcome Con, and you thought LINK was quiet :) ), this is significant from the DIMES installation page: "Currently, the DIMES agent is available for Windows platforms only." Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > On Slashdot today in Science http://science.slashdot.org/ > > Mapping the Internet Evolution > Posted by Zonk on Sunday May 15, @03:19PM > > from the take-a-left-at-amazon-and-then-a-right-past-fark dept. > > Shire writes "Science magazine is running a story on the DIMES project, > which has ventured to map the structure and evolution of the Internet > (PDF) using open source distributed clients in the style of SETI@Home > and such. DIMES has already collected more than 40 Millions measurements > which resulted in some nice pictures and several scientific > presentations. Those who use traceroute may find it a useful (and > colorful) alternative." > > referenced links: > > DIMES > http://www.netdimes.org/ > > structure and evolution of the Internet > http://netdimes.org/scienceMay05.pdf > > nice pictures > http://www.netdimes.org/asmap.png > http://www.netdimes.org/ipmap.png > > several scientific presentations > http://www.netdimes.org/science.html > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From conz at cyber.com.au Mon May 16 16:41:00 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Mon May 16 16:41:46 2005 Subject: [LINK] computers in schools and uni's and open source In-Reply-To: <1116224182.16211.25.camel@styx.cdu.edu.au> References: <20050516050916.GV19396@cyber.com.au> <20050516054935.GZ19396@cyber.com.au> <1116224182.16211.25.camel@styx.cdu.edu.au> Message-ID: <20050516064100.GA19396@cyber.com.au> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 03:46:22PM +0930, anthony hornby wrote: > Hi, > I agree with the comments so far about the don't rock the boat mentality > in education. You have to make a much harder case for anything thats not > M$. > > A problem I have encountered is the "we'll use open source because its > free ... for now ... and that means we don't have to support it > properly" approach. agreed. Which is why I said this: Additionally, teachers also know that they will need to learn a whole swag of new software, with minimal time and support. Teachers' time and stress levels are at a premium already. Without support from the powers that be, this makes migration away from "the world's largest software company" a hard and thankless task. > eg we don't have resources to do task 'X' properly, so we'll put > together a solution using open source - which because we can just grab > the software of the net seems to mean we can implement it without any > sort of implementation plan or business processes in place - we just > 'chuck' it on the network. > > When (unsurprisingly) something goes wrong later, we put together a > business case showing we need to get the 'right tools' for the job - > invariably the M$ product for large pot-o-money. When it comes time to > implement the M$ product there are all sorts of planning teams put > together, risk assessments, audits etc etc and lots of highly paid > consultants running around to help us implement it properly. > > The above points to bad IT management generally, but certainly in some > of the places I have worked there seems to be a mentality that because > its an open source product (and free) therefore it doesn't require the > same sorts of quality control, support planning in your implementation > etc etc etc that commercial software does. > > In fact the case is the opposite because every open source installation > needs to be a shining example of why it does work to counteract all the > FUD out there. That's too much pressure on FOSS. -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From r.polanskis at uws.edu.au Mon May 16 16:41:13 2005 From: r.polanskis at uws.edu.au (r.polanskis@uws.edu.au) Date: Mon May 16 16:42:20 2005 Subject: [LINK] computers in schools and uni's and open source In-Reply-To: <20050516054935.GZ19396@cyber.com.au> References: <20050516050916.GV19396@cyber.com.au> <20050516054935.GZ19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2005, Con Zymaris wrote: > On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 03:45:16PM +1000, r.polanskis@uws.edu.au wrote: > > > > Would you say the inverse was true? > > > > That by not considering or being operationally proficient in MS products > > and administration, you are now limiting your career. > > We're not talking about 'knowing how to use Microsoft products'. We're > talking about selecting them for deployment. The people selecting MS products for deployment are those who also got trained on those products. It's the same people who get junketed with visits to datacentres in the US, free software, vouchers, special positions on advisory groups and so on. There are many rewards for those prepared to select MS products in the workplace. Even the ads they use reflect this (vis "some IT guy" ads). I do not believe that many uni's these days teach any courses on UNIX or at least a combined curriculum that includes skills across both platforms. MS seems to be the platform of choice for teaching software engineering here at even if the language is platform independant. I think there is only one UNIX lab left, the rest being converted over to MSW. Certainly the Mac labs are very few in number now. All these decisions were made by people who only have MS skills in their field. They're easy decisions to make for those people. > And yes, right now in Education, by selecting to deploy Microsoft software > you are part of a problem that costs Education $100 million per > needlessly. This should be stomped on, and hard. You won't find a bigger hater of MS than me. Such that I was asked to not mention MS for a while on this very list a few years ago and such that I am "effectively" gagged from making anti-MS sentiments aloud, by email or commentary in the workplace. When I attend any meetings, I am occasionally reminded not to put my heart on my sleeve regarding my feelings about MS products. Apparently I am either too smug (because I am a UNIX user) or it is too demoralising for other staff. rachel -- Rachel Polanskis Systems Admin, University of Western Sydney ADD Werrington North Campus (+61 2) 9678 7291 "I have found the solution, Doctor. Knife them in the neck" - Leela, Dr Who "Who do you trust?" - John W Howard From conz at cyber.com.au Mon May 16 16:45:00 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Mon May 16 16:45:11 2005 Subject: [LINK] computers in schools and uni's and open source In-Reply-To: References: <20050516050916.GV19396@cyber.com.au> <20050516054935.GZ19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <20050516064500.GB19396@cyber.com.au> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 04:41:13PM +1000, r.polanskis@uws.edu.au wrote: > On Mon, 16 May 2005, Con Zymaris wrote: > > > On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 03:45:16PM +1000, r.polanskis@uws.edu.au wrote: > > > > > > Would you say the inverse was true? > > > > > > That by not considering or being operationally proficient in MS products > > > and administration, you are now limiting your career. > > > > We're not talking about 'knowing how to use Microsoft products'. We're > > talking about selecting them for deployment. > > The people selecting MS products for deployment are those who also > got trained on those products. Maybe. > > It's the same people who get junketed > with visits to datacentres in the US, free software, vouchers, special > positions on advisory groups and so on. There are many rewards for > those prepared to select MS products in the workplace. Even the ads they > use reflect this (vis "some IT guy" ads). Yes. > > I do not believe that many uni's > these days teach any courses on UNIX or at least a combined curriculum > that includes skills across both platforms. MS seems to be the platform > of choice for teaching software engineering here at even > if the language is platform independant. I think there is only one > UNIX lab left, the rest being converted over to MSW. Certainly the > Mac labs are very few in number now. All these decisions were made > by people who only have MS skills in their field. They're easy decisions > to make for those people. Many other Unis are going the other way. > > > And yes, right now in Education, by selecting to deploy Microsoft software > > you are part of a problem that costs Education $100 million per > > needlessly. This should be stomped on, and hard. > > You won't find a bigger hater of MS than me. Such that I was asked This isn't a case for being a Microsoft hater or not. This is simple business and simple numbers. > to not mention MS for a while on this very list a few years ago and > such that I am "effectively" gagged from making anti-MS sentiments > aloud, by email or commentary in the workplace. When I attend any Luckily, my employer allows me to shoot my mouth of, at will ;-) > meetings, I am occasionally reminded not to put my heart on my sleeve > regarding my feelings about MS products. Apparently I am either > too smug (because I am a UNIX user) or it is too demoralising for > other staff. Have I told you I'm talking to CAUDIT? ;-) -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From gmuldoon at scu.edu.au Mon May 16 16:45:42 2005 From: gmuldoon at scu.edu.au (Geoff Muldoon) Date: Mon May 16 16:45:53 2005 Subject: [LINK] computers in schools and uni's and open source In-Reply-To: <1116224182.16211.25.camel@styx.cdu.edu.au> References: <20050516050916.GV19396@cyber.com.au> <20050516054935.GZ19396@cyber.com.au> <1116224182.16211.25.camel@styx.cdu.edu.au> Message-ID: <42884196.9090800@scu.edu.au> anthony hornby wrote: > I agree with the comments so far about the don't rock the boat mentality > in education. You have to make a much harder case for anything thats not > M$. > > Maybe I've just had a worse run than most .... Oh, for the days when in education circles you were shunned if you offered up anything other that Claris Works on a Mac Classic. :-) -- Geoff Muldoon MIS Corporate Systems Developer Information Technology and Telecommunication Services Southern Cross University Lismore NSW Australia Email gmuldoon@scu.edu.au Telephone +61 2 6620 3097 Facsimile +61 2 6620 3033 ** The most frightening words a system developer can hear - "It's quite simple, all I want to do is ...." ** From hartr at interweft.com.au Mon May 16 17:07:30 2005 From: hartr at interweft.com.au (Robert Hart) Date: Mon May 16 17:07:38 2005 Subject: [LINK] Subscription-based Windows fix-it service lanuched by MS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1116227251.5442.30.camel@bree> On Sat, 2005-05-14 at 15:32 +1000, Stilgherrian wrote: > On 14/5/05 11:40 AM, "Rick Welykochy" wrote: > > Hmmm ... buy the OS, then buy a subscription service for perpetuity > > to keep it running. > > Gee, just like buying a car, and then having to keep paying for oil changes, > tyres and other maintenance. *shrugs* > > Or just like Red Hat selling you Red Hat Enterprise Linux and then wanting > you subscribe to the Red Hat Network to get software updates. Hmmm - if you buy Red Hat Enterprise Linux, that purchase includes updates! If you use Fedora Linux, you do not have to buy anything - the updates are freely available, as are those from Microsoft. I don't see any great ethical issue with Microsoft providing "Onecare"... -- Robert Hart hartr@interweft.com.au +61 (0)438 385 533 Brisbane, Australia http://www.hart.wattle.id.au From hartr at interweft.com.au Mon May 16 17:34:36 2005 From: hartr at interweft.com.au (Robert Hart) Date: Mon May 16 17:34:43 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <20050515224118.GW18150@taz.net.au> References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> <20050515224118.GW18150@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <1116228877.5442.48.camel@bree> Hi An interesting discussion - but there's one issue that has not been raised, that of the skill training component of IT use within education. Whether this argument holds water or not is another matter [1], but one reason why education departments (and TAFEs for that matter) want their students to use Microsoft software is because it is seen as 'industry standard'. If a student learns Word or Excel, they are perceived to have a marketable skill with potential employers. Furthermore, not having that skill if everyone else applying for a particular job has it can be fatal to the application process. There is a further dimension to this issue - schools are scrutinised for their associations with industry. I would imagine that education depts could feel exposed to industry criticism if they switched away from the 'industry standard'. As in any change process, there are many fears - some real others imagined. For FOSS to start to move into schools, all these fears need to be addressed. Calling education departments incompetent and or biased does not seem designed to help that process. [1] I would suggest that it matters not one whit which word processor or spread sheet one learns as long as one learns the principles rather than simply how to use a particular piece of software. For example - every word processor contains a similar 'basket' of tools, learn to use one word processor and you understand how to use this tool set in any word processor. All that is needed is to learn the specifics of how to invoke a tool and away you go. -- Robert Hart hartr@interweft.com.au +61 (0)438 385 533 Brisbane, Australia http://www.hart.wattle.id.au From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Mon May 16 17:43:52 2005 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Mon May 16 17:43:56 2005 Subject: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft In-Reply-To: <20050516030618.GA9771@taz.net.au> References: <4287C504.6070500@ozemail.com.au> <4287D0DD.2050006@ramin.com.au> <20050516000215.GY18150@taz.net.au> <20050516030618.GA9771@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <08892dfbc8f37a02f7e660f73547f861@tony-barry.emu.id.au> On 16 May 2005, at 1:06 PM, Craig Sanders wrote: > yes, but there wasn't any serious danger that it wouldn't be paid. > True but I could anticipate that a huge and growing item in the budget to pay former public servant's pension might become an item of some comment. Tony phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From brd at iimetro.com.au Mon May 16 18:02:10 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Mon May 16 18:02:21 2005 Subject: [LINK] Future Fund/Pension, was Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft References: <4287C504.6070500@ozemail.com.au> <4287D0DD.2050006@ramin.com.au> <20050516000215.GY18150@taz.net.au> <20050516030618.GA9771@taz.net.au> <08892dfbc8f37a02f7e660f73547f861@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Message-ID: <42885382.11C18502@iimetro.com.au> Antony Barry wrote: > > On 16 May 2005, at 1:06 PM, Craig Sanders wrote: > > > yes, but there wasn't any serious danger that it wouldn't be paid. > > > > True but I could anticipate that a huge and growing item in the > budget to pay former public servant's pension might become an item > of some comment. It was: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,15245906%255E7583,00.html ... If the fund is intended, as Mr Costello claims, only to cover the commonwealth's superannuation liabilities, the numbers just don't add up - $16 billion in seed money, the fruits of future surpluses, and possibly the proceeds from the sale of the remaining 50.1 per cent of Telstra would hugely overshoot the target. If it is really intended for much bigger work - funding the pension and health costs of the retiring baby boomers - then the money would be better spent on more measures to boost productivity and growth now. It is ironic that while a Labor government pioneered compulsory private superannuation, this Coalition Government is ploughing our taxes into a vast state pension scheme for public servants. ... -- Chase your passion, not your pension. -- Denis Waitley Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Mon May 16 20:33:55 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Mon May 16 20:33:43 2005 Subject: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft In-Reply-To: <20050516011955.GQ19396@cyber.com.au> References: <4287C504.6070500@ozemail.com.au> <20050516011955.GQ19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <42887713.60508@ozemail.com.au> Con Zymaris wrote: >On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 07:54:12AM +1000, rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > > >>The school computers debate is impossible to resolve, because the >>starting point is nowhere in sight. Nobody's ever going to get a >>sensible decision about "what computers, what architecture, whose >>software" and so on, until someone's decided what the school computers >>are >for<. >> >> > >I demur. > >It's an extremely tractable problem. > >school computers are for whatever they are presently used for. 90% of the >time, that's office productivity, web-page creation, simple prgramming, >email and web. > >All of which can be very competently done on Linux/FOSS. > > It can, but there is (as other have pointed out after this response) a considerable challenge to draw together the necessary drive to shift. And I'd submit that one of the problems is that nobody *really* cares what the computer is for (whatever it's already there for isn't an answer). >And until someone magically decides what the students _should_ be doing >with the machines, let's switch them over to save money and effort. > > The money I don't argue about. But Con, you've been using Linux for 12 years, and you live with computers every day. Tell the user it's easier as well as cheaper, and the natural user response is to retort that they've been told that for years about computers, but that "the computer people" never delivered on "easier". IOW, FOSS inherits a guilt-by-association: to the punter, it's just another faction of computer people offering another set of promises. And now I'm going to offend yet another community. Apple people say "here is the example of...". Well, this morning my boss and myself went crosseyed trying to get the dear OSX Powerbook to print properly. Sure, we won, but only after about an hour; and she has been using Apple since about Mac number one. Frankly, ease-of-use is mostly = familiarity; but the corrolary is that unfamiliar = difficult. The only people for whom this is not true are familiar with all the choices. Taking what Arthur Evan posted, I looked at the policy: >We need to work together to: >? Provide high quality, sharable Australian digital content and services to facilitate significant >improvement in the learning experiences of all Australians; Presupposition: digital content and services = better education (I presume "learning experiences of all Australians" is how you say "education" if you're paid $1 per word). >? Achieve common technical standards to allow the sharing of resources and the development of >common services; No problems there... >? Ensure supply of adequate bandwidth through cooperation across the sector and across all >Australian governments to support innovative teaching and learning, and business processes at a >sustainable cost; It's hard to put so many undefined terms in one sentence. What is "adequate" bandwidth? Depends on the requirements. What are the requirements? Depends on the applications. What are the applications? Nobody says. What's the benefit in attaching "innovative" as the adjective to "teaching"? (Apart from the idea that it was paid for by-the-word). >? Ensure legislation about the use and reuse of digital resources is consistent with principles of >equity and access; and OK... not worried about that. >? Integrate information and communications technology into all facets of education and training, >including the administrative functions and e-business models required to support learning. I suppose only a pain in the neck would criticise this sentence as being nearly devoid of sense... "Integrate ICT into all facets of education and training" - ignoring the appropriateness of that integration into the particular subject or activity. "E-business models required to support learning" - required? e-business is required to support learning? The document runs on the basis that the right application of computers to schools has already been determined. Actually, it's merely a grab-bag of pop jargons... RC >>The old principle of IT is that if you want success in the project, you >>have to start with an understanding of the requirements. But I would >>wager tha among the huge numbers of policy documents, motherhood >>statements, and political promises, there is nothing so basic as a >>requirements document. As far as public schools are concerned, the only >>"requirements" are what? To enable the students to pass standardised >>computer skills tests. >> >>So there's a budget, the purpose of which is "buy stuff", and there's a >>list of suppliers, and there's lots of vague statements about using the >>Internet and grabbing Encarta as a substitute for research, and a >>requirement (imposed by business lobbies) that kids get tested for their >>ability to use Word, Excel and PowerPoint. >> >>A clear statement of policy and requirements would tell the world: >>- why computers are a requirement for education; >>- what specific purpose the computers in schools are meant to achieve; >>- how to measure performance against purpose; and finally >>- what systems, architecture, and software are required to fulfil the >>educational requirements. >> >>The triumph of Microsoft - and Apple in NSW schools, for that matter - >>is the result of ad-hocery driven by vendors, lobbies, and interest >>groups. The supply side has created a belief that spending $100 million >>(or whatever) on computers signals a government's "committment to >>education". Therefore the money gets allocated and spent. >> >> > >The selected solution (Microsoft, Apple) may very well be the best and may >deliver the best value. > >However, unless Education opens its markets, how will it ever know? > > > From conz at cyber.com.au Mon May 16 22:46:20 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Mon May 16 23:11:39 2005 Subject: [LINK] The real roadblocks to Linux in education In-Reply-To: <1116228877.5442.48.camel@bree> References: <42858BE0.91836270@iimetro.com.au> <42864502.9010207@melbpc.org.au> <20050515002822.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <428777E5.9090307@melbpc.org.au> <20050515224118.GW18150@taz.net.au> <1116228877.5442.48.camel@bree> Message-ID: <20050516124620.GH19396@cyber.com.au> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 05:34:36PM +1000, Robert Hart wrote: > Hi > > An interesting discussion - but there's one issue that has not been > raised, that of the skill training component of IT use within education. > > Whether this argument holds water or not is another matter [1], but one > reason why education departments (and TAFEs for that matter) want their > students to use Microsoft software is because it is seen as 'industry > standard'. I thought I killed off that argument in an earlier post ;-) Let's try again. Education Departments should not care about teaching their students vocationally. That's what TAFEs and some Unis are for. A student learning Microsoft Access at 14 will likely be shown a completely different application by that name, if it even exists still, when they go to work in an office at 22. At that level, there is be no real difference between that student having learned OpenOffice.org Base at 14, or Microsoft's Access. Why not go with the better value option? Yes, TAFEs need to train students in Microsoft Office. No contest. They can keep that role. However, I want the five million students in primary and secondary schools to be raised with total exposre and competence in Linux/FOSS well before they get anywhere near a TAFE. Let's see if the Microsoft 'industry standard' stays upright for very long under this scenario. ... > There is a further dimension to this issue - schools are scrutinised for > their associations with industry. I would imagine that education depts > could feel exposed to industry criticism if they switched away from the > 'industry standard'. Schools are? Really? Don't think so ;-) University's and TAFEs maybe. > > As in any change process, there are many fears - some real others > imagined. For FOSS to start to move into schools, all these fears need > to be addressed. No they dont. All it takes is the same style of order form above to come through: "As of 1st of Jan 2007, we are moving 90% of all computers in state primary and secondary schools to Linux and FOSS. Teachers will be given all the Professional Development training they need to make this transition. You have no options. You will comply." Tell me they do it differently when they force new versions of Microsoft products on the schools. Go on. Tell me. ;-) Done. Next problem please. > > Calling education departments incompetent and or biased does not seem > designed to help that process. Robert, I've tried for over 2.5 years. They are a _bunker_ - nothing gets in and little information comes out. Therefore I am now launching appropriate bunker-busting artillery. The traditional advocacy play has failed. Time now for different tactics. Put it this way: What have we got to lose? They are doing _absolutely_ nothing in this direction anyway. It' not like they are taking measured steps and we might scare them off. I'm not asking for anyone's assistance in this matter - I will make this happen myself. We're merely passing the time in genteel conversation here, right? ;-) -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From conz at cyber.com.au Mon May 16 22:21:40 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Tue May 17 01:58:05 2005 Subject: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft In-Reply-To: <42887713.60508@ozemail.com.au> References: <4287C504.6070500@ozemail.com.au> <20050516011955.GQ19396@cyber.com.au> <42887713.60508@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <20050516122140.GE19396@cyber.com.au> On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 08:33:55PM +1000, rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: ... > > It can, but there is (as other have pointed out after this response) a > considerable challenge to draw together the necessary drive to shift. > And I'd submit that one of the problems is that nobody *really* cares > what the computer is for (whatever it's already there for isn't an answer). Saving lots of money is enough to force a shift. Not for the people down below, but for a select handful up above who make the majority of the decisions. > > >And until someone magically decides what the students _should_ be doing > >with the machines, let's switch them over to save money and effort. > > > > The money I don't argue about. But Con, you've been using Linux for 12 > years, and you live with computers every day. Tell the user it's easier > as well as cheaper, and the natural user response is to retort that > they've been told that for years about computers, but that "the computer > people" never delivered on "easier". IOW, FOSS inherits a > guilt-by-association: to the punter, it's just another faction of > computer people offering another set of promises. So, don't push the "it's easier" angle. Push the "it wont break" angle and the "it wont get viruses" angle. Also push the "you now now focus on teaching rather than mopping up computer disasters" angle. > > And now I'm going to offend yet another community. Apple people say > "here is the example of...". Well, this morning my boss and myself went > crosseyed trying to get the dear OSX Powerbook to print properly. Sure, > we won, but only after about an hour; and she has been using Apple since > about Mac number one. Frankly, ease-of-use is mostly = familiarity; but > the corrolary is that unfamiliar = difficult. The only people for whom > this is not true are familiar with all the choices. With modern computing infrastructure and technology, there is no real 'easy'. Things are just way too complext But that's life. Things are no better in the Windows camp and are generally more fragile too. Either way, they will go with Windows or Linux when they have standard commodity hardware. I'd rather they went with Linux. Yes all software sucks - but Linux is cheaper and has fewer ownership costs and allows you leverage with your vendor. -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From brd at iimetro.com.au Tue May 17 07:31:20 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Tue May 17 07:34:12 2005 Subject: [LINK] Michael Dell doubts desktop Linux demand Message-ID: <42891128.DF95A987@iimetro.com.au> Michael Dell doubts desktop Linux demand by CBR Staff Writer 16 May 2005, 09:36 GMT - Computer Business Review On Line http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=A4FAA652-C93C-461F-9292-A0034A72F006 Dell chairman Michael Dell has cast doubt on the potential of Linux on the desktop, and also distanced himself from his own investment company's $99.5m investment in Linux distributor Red Hat. "The Linux market started on the server and it's stayed on the server," he told a select group of journalists in London. "All our desktops can run Linux if you want to, we see this as more of a demand issue than a supply issue." While all of the Round Rock, Texas-based company's desktop products might be capable of running Linux, the company does not offer or support Linux on its Dimension or OptiPlex desktops, preferring to focus Linux on its Precision workstations. Even then, a potential Linux desktop purchaser is faced with multiple notices telling them: "Dell recommends Microsoft Windows XP Professional". However, Dell dismissed the idea that the company and the PC industry at large could be doing more to encourage users by presenting them with more choice on the desktop. "We have maybe 150 different product platforms. Should we test and have Linux drivers for every different model we have? To support it on every single model, every single configuration? No, we're a for-profit business," he said. Dell's relationship with Red Hat appeared to have been strengthened with the news last week that Michael Dell's investment company, MSD Capital LP, had invested $99.5m of the Dell chairman's own money in Red Hat's January 2004 private debenture placement. Dell played down the investment, however, saying that while he meets with MSD's management once every couple of months, he is not personally involved in its investment choices. "I didn't know they had made this investment," he said. "That's not the sort of thing we talk about." -- The interesting thing is when we design and architect a server, we don't design it for Windows or Linux, we design it for both. We don't really care, as long as we're selling the one the customer wants. -- Michael Dell Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From cas at taz.net.au Tue May 17 10:04:52 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Tue May 17 10:07:51 2005 Subject: [LINK] Subscription-based Windows fix-it service lanuched by MS In-Reply-To: References: <42855724.8030409@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <20050517000451.GZ18150@taz.net.au> On Sat, May 14, 2005 at 03:32:47PM +1000, Stilgherrian wrote: > On 14/5/05 11:40 AM, "Rick Welykochy" wrote: > > Hmmm ... buy the OS, then buy a subscription service for perpetuity > > to keep it running. > > Gee, just like buying a car, and then having to keep paying for oil changes, > tyres and other maintenance. *shrugs* more like buying a car with factory-slashed tires, brakes that don't work, dodgy accelerator pedal, inaccurate dials & meters on the dashboard, and a built-in remote control to allow anyone to take over the driving at any time, and then paying a subscription fee to partially fix some of the problems (while occasionally causing new problems - e.g. fix the brakes and ruin the steering). oh, and all of the "fixes" you pay for are just band-aid patches, none of them will even attempt to fix the underlying design flaws. in the car industry, that would be called a "lemon" and nobody would buy one. in the computer industry, it's called "standard environment" and nobody can see that it's garbage. the thing i dislike most about microsoft is that they have managed to get most of the computing world to accept crashes and buggy, insecure software as NORMAL....as if computers are inherently like that. they're not. with decent software, they don't crash all the time. it's only with crap software like microsoft's garbage operating systems that they crash. nobody would accept such shoddy quality for cars or tvs or video recorders or any other product - so why is it acceptable for software? > * That Microsoft is combining into this service a lot of > different things that are normally provided by third > parties -- anti-virus, anti-spyware, telephone support. > > While Microsoft the Behemoth may sell everyone the OS, there's an > enormous number of businesses large and small who feed off this -- big > players like Symantec on anti-virus to a million little IT firms doing > support. this is not at all unusual for microsoft. their behavioural pattern over the years has been to wait for third parties to establish a market and then take it over. > While people can still choose to get these things from whoever they > want, Microsoft has an enormous advantage because they can promote > their service directly from within the operating system. yes, exactly. when MS decide to take over a market, there's little that anyone else can do. their best hope is that MS will offer to buy them out rather than just squash them. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From Evan.ARTHUR at dest.gov.au Tue May 17 09:12:49 2005 From: Evan.ARTHUR at dest.gov.au (Evan.ARTHUR@dest.gov.au) Date: Tue May 17 10:44:11 2005 Subject: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft Message-ID: <200505162312.j4GNCn3h018333@name-ext2.dewr.gov.au> Richard Chirgwin wrote about the content of a document I pointed to in a post: < References: <4287C504.6070500@ozemail.com.au> <20050516011955.GQ19396@cyber.com.au> <42887713.60508@ozemail.com.au> <20050516122140.GE19396@cyber.com.au> <20050517005429.GA7107@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <20050517010754.GY19396@cyber.com.au> On Tue, May 17, 2005 at 10:54:29AM +1000, Deus Ex Machina wrote: > Con Zymaris [conz@cyber.com.au] wrote: > > On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 08:33:55PM +1000, rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > > > > Either way, they will go with Windows or Linux when they have standard > > commodity hardware. I'd rather they went with Linux. Yes all software > > sucks - but Linux is cheaper and has fewer ownership costs and allows you > > leverage with your vendor. > Sorry, I read the following and didn't think it worth responding to. $5 will buy you some cluepons. Contact me when you've made your purchase. > vendor? which vendor? what leverage can you have with someone who > externalises all the normal commercial relationships? provides zero support with zero > warranty and forces you to fend for yourself on a user support group if one exists at > all? unless you are talking about paying USD2500 for a version of red > hat enterprise. > > you are pushing a bunch of ideas which sound nice > in theory but ignore the fact that people wont switch for incremental > gain. until linux makes the computer significantly easier. not just > marginally easier the switch wont happen in any great numbers. I would > even question that linux is in the slightest bit end user friendly. > > case in point one of our sysadmin who has a windows background has been > undergoing training in linux for the last 9 months. he still couldnt work out how > to quickly change the refresh rate on his screen. > > until you can make the computer trivially easy to use its all hot air. superior > technology is of little value unless it dramatically simplifies things > for the end users. > > Vic -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Tue May 17 11:44:57 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Tue May 17 11:47:41 2005 Subject: [LINK] Re: using FOSS in the home as a start In-Reply-To: <20050516035708.GN19396@cyber.com.au> References: <20050516011752.GA29679@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <20050516012430.GR19396@cyber.com.au> <42880551.2040102@iss.net.au> <20050516025821.GI19396@cyber.com.au> <42881399.1070506@iss.net.au> <20050516035708.GN19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20050517113450.01f32ec0@popa.melbpc.org.au> At 01:57 PM 16/05/2005, Brenda wrote: > > perhaps i should have changed the subject line. I am not talking about > > unis or corporates. I used the exchange in my last post to suggest that > > a strategy to get into unis and corporates could start at the home user. Actually, this is happening in small ways. The Melbourne PC User Group has been making various *nix flavours available to members [Mandrake, demos at monthly meetings of new ones], including articles in the PC Update magazine, e.g. an article in the March issue reviewing the whole area of Open Source, an interest group that meets on the 1st Thursday of the month at Chadstone, an online Linux User Forum http://www.pcupdate.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=23 , and probably a few other things I haven't found. Unfortunately, there isn't a training session specifically for it. Maybe Ash can suggest this to the committee and also give an idea of how active these are. We have over 11,000 members. Jan JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au Tue May 17 12:15:57 2005 From: glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au (Glen Turner) Date: Tue May 17 12:17:41 2005 Subject: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft In-Reply-To: <200505162312.j4GNCn3h018333@name-ext2.dewr.gov.au> References: <200505162312.j4GNCn3h018333@name-ext2.dewr.gov.au> Message-ID: <428953DD.2090706@aarnet.edu.au> Evan.ARTHUR@dest.gov.au wrote: > > Slightly more seriously, we would very much like to know what 'adequate > bandwidth' means, ... In the school context, does it mean ADSL (it doesn't > in some overseas countries we normally compare ourselves with)? Hi Evan, I don't think it means ADSL. Here's why: 1) Vidoeconferencing. For the low-end you're looking at about 512Kbps (little box on screen), for the high end you're looking at about 4Mbps (TV). ADSL is "asymetric" -- has less capacity from the site than to it (256Kbps from the site is about the max). So it's not really a useful technology if schools want videoconferencing. ADSL2 is looking a lot better. Now I'm not a classroom teacher (I give uni lectures, but that's not the same thing), so I've no idea how useful or otherwise videoconferencing is to a school. But if you want to give them the option, then you've got to cross out ADSL1. 2) Sufficent bandwidth for a classroom of PCs. Lot's of homes have ADSL now, so application programmers are starting to assume >1Mbps of bandwidth from the server to the application at the site. If you start a classroom full of machines with applications with those sort of assumptions then a ADSL link isn't going to cut it. From memory your EDNA-NG document spelt out the applications envisaged rather well. So you could go back to that, tag the applications with bandwidth numbers and see what you get. 3) School-based services and school-created content. Schools want web servers and stuff. A lot of it is PR and that can be hosted rather than at the school. But if you see a future where the computing curriculum has "install, configure and populate a web servers with content" then you are talking about bandwidth up from the site being the limiting factor. It's also not clear to me if schools are going to pick up on the "web cam security camera" the way unis have, where there's hundreds of them popping up. The processing of this stuff is getting really clever (for example, the one in this building alerts security to items/bombs left in the foyer), so there's plenty of scope for a few people in Sydney keeping an eye on every NSW school. You probably need to have a chat with the physical security people at the state ed departments. Finally, kids find ways to fill disk and bandwidth. The creation of movies seems inevitable as a classroom project, given the falling price of cameras and current PC specs allowing digital movie editing. Of course, sometimes all you have is ADSL, and sometimes you can't even get that. I suppose the thing there is to know what you do want, so opportunities can be grasped. Hope this is of some help. Best wishes, Glen -- Glen Turner Tel: (08) 8303 3936 or +61 8 8303 3936 Australia's Academic & Research Network www.aarnet.edu.au From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Tue May 17 11:57:15 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Tue May 17 12:30:15 2005 Subject: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft In-Reply-To: <200505162312.j4GNCn3h018333@name-ext2.dewr.gov.au> References: <200505162312.j4GNCn3h018333@name-ext2.dewr.gov.au> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20050517115122.01f85ec0@popa.melbpc.org.au> At 09:12 AM 17/05/2005, Evan.ARTHUR@dest.gov.au wrote: >Slightly more seriously, we would very much like to know what 'adequate >bandwidth' means, 'we' meaning people trying to give practical effect to >the high level political commitments. We figured that in the research >context 'adequate' meant gigabit plus - hence the funding which led to >http://www.aarnet.edu.au/engineering/aarnet3/. In the school context, >does it mean ADSL (it doesn't in some overseas countries we normally >compare ourselves with)? I think Evan's point is a good one. What is an adequate metric for network provisioning in schools? I know that there have been complaints made on link that the speed of school networks at least in some schools is so slow, students prefer to do work from home dialup lines. There must be a regressive point at which just having a line into the school isn't enough. This is an area that network designers could really help in terms of network traffic provisioning for schools based on growth patterns. University network admins should have their planning data to answer that question. Evan, I doubt ADSL is the answer, more like a T1 or T2 [if I'm still in the right techno terminology; haven't looked at networks in a long while]. I think there might be a difference between levels, too: primary schools v secondary colleges, classroom v library v computer lab, etc. Then there is the need for schools to budget for demand growth. If I recall correctly, states and perhaps DEST were putting up money for capital, but not operating costs. I spoke with a local primary school principal about this a few years back and his headache was paying for the on-going network costs. Jan JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au Tue May 17 12:42:17 2005 From: glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au (Glen Turner) Date: Tue May 17 12:43:31 2005 Subject: [LINK] Uni's aren't so different to schools In-Reply-To: <20050516024026.GF19396@cyber.com.au> References: <20050516011752.GA29679@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <20050516022832.GC19396@cyber.com.au> <20050516024026.GF19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <42895A09.2080909@aarnet.edu.au> Con Zymaris wrote: >>Most of the IT software budget goes on COTS products. Officially, >>there is "no in house" development of products. I do not know the >>exact costs and am probably not allowed to say in any case! SAP, PeopleSoft and co was the big change here. Before those most of the IT applications budget went to home-grown software. Even before SAP/PS unis were desperately trying to get out of building their own admin software. There's a sorry story there of failed software projects, for all the usual reasons. The other big change was the Internet. The economies of scale in networks forces centralisation of network infrastructure, so you found IT moving from supporting admin to supporting teaching and learning. Some did this better than others. There seems to be force at work centralising the administration of web content. Central provision of web systems seems to be the only way to get the necessary consistency. Interestingly, this push is being lead by PR in some unis and by teaching support at other unis. >>Reliance on OSS products is a last resort when nothing else works. You'll find this varies considerably between universities. For example, Samba was underwritten by the ANU's IT department who didn't want to run Windows for Workgroups file servers. And UQ's big and fast e-mail system is has been entirely FOSS for as long as I can remember. Whereas some other unis are staunchly Microsoft shops. And if you want to change this, FOSS needs a real calendaring solution. That's what sells Exchange. Executives do meetings, and they need calendaring, and they're not going to buy anything that doesn't have that (to them, mandatory) feature. > What is the title of the person who makes the decisions on this? I like to > go and talk to the right people straight from the start, but I wont get > you to release their name. The person you want is called an "IT Director". You might find it interesting to chat with former IT directors first. IT Directors have an intensely political position, so they need to be very careful abouit what they say. Whereas former IT directors no longer need the same care with words to survive. -- Glen Turner Tel: (08) 8303 3936 or +61 8 8303 3936 Australia's Academic & Research Network www.aarnet.edu.au From marghanita at ramin.com.au Tue May 17 13:19:39 2005 From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz) Date: Tue May 17 15:04:16 2005 Subject: Bandwidth in Schools was Re: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft In-Reply-To: <428953DD.2090706@aarnet.edu.au> References: <200505162312.j4GNCn3h018333@name-ext2.dewr.gov.au> <428953DD.2090706@aarnet.edu.au> Message-ID: <428962CB.107@ramin.com.au> To add to the list VOIP to replace separate telephone lines into the schools. Alternative models could also include wireless externally managed data/network services. Marghanita Glen Turner wrote: > Evan.ARTHUR@dest.gov.au wrote: > >> >> Slightly more seriously, we would very much like to know what 'adequate >> bandwidth' means, ... In the school context, does it mean ADSL (it >> doesn't > > > in some overseas countries we normally compare ourselves with)? > > Hi Evan, > > I don't think it means ADSL. Here's why: > > 1) Vidoeconferencing. > > For the low-end you're looking at about 512Kbps (little > box on screen), for the high end you're looking at about > 4Mbps (TV). > > ADSL is "asymetric" -- has less capacity from the site > than to it (256Kbps from the site is about the max). So > it's not really a useful technology if schools want > videoconferencing. ADSL2 is looking a lot better. > > Now I'm not a classroom teacher (I give uni lectures, but > that's not the same thing), so I've no idea how useful > or otherwise videoconferencing is to a school. But if > you want to give them the option, then you've got to cross > out ADSL1. > > 2) Sufficent bandwidth for a classroom of PCs. > > Lot's of homes have ADSL now, so application programmers > are starting to assume >1Mbps of bandwidth from the server > to the application at the site. If you start a classroom > full of machines with applications with those sort of > assumptions then a ADSL link isn't going to cut it. > > From memory your EDNA-NG document spelt out the applications > envisaged rather well. So you could go back to that, tag > the applications with bandwidth numbers and see what you > get. > > 3) School-based services and school-created content. > > Schools want web servers and stuff. A lot of it is PR and > that can be hosted rather than at the school. But if you > see a future where the computing curriculum has "install, > configure and populate a web servers with content" then > you are talking about bandwidth up from the site being the > limiting factor. > > It's also not clear to me if schools are going to pick up > on the "web cam security camera" the way unis have, where > there's hundreds of them popping up. The processing of this > stuff is getting really clever (for example, the one in this > building alerts security to items/bombs left in the foyer), > so there's plenty of scope for a few people in Sydney keeping > an eye on every NSW school. You probably need to have a chat > with the physical security people at the state ed departments. > > Finally, kids find ways to fill disk and bandwidth. The creation > of movies seems inevitable as a classroom project, given the > falling price of cameras and current PC specs allowing digital > movie editing. > > Of course, sometimes all you have is ADSL, and sometimes you can't even > get that. I suppose the thing there is to know what you do want, so > opportunities can be grasped. > > Hope this is of some help. > > Best wishes, > Glen > -- Marghanita da Cruz Director, Ramin Communications Pty Ltd http://www.ramin.com.au ABN 28-089-713-084 Chair ACS Governance of ICT Committee http://www.acs.org.au/governance Telephone: 0414-869202 mailto:marghanita@ramin.com.au From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Tue May 17 12:34:17 2005 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Tue May 17 15:04:41 2005 Subject: [LINK] Nominations sought for membership of new ASTAP exp Message-ID: Media Release www.aca.gov.au ABN 78334953951 17 May 2005 No. 25 Nominations sought for membership of new ASTAP expert groups The Asia?Pacific Telecommunity Standardization Program (ASTAP) is calling for nominations for new expert groups to study emerging telecommunications standardisation issues important to the region. One of the new expert groups will cover radiocommunications network systems for disaster prevention. It will study and investigate conditions, communications circumstances and needs concerning the systems for transmitting emergency information to residents in case of disaster occurrences in the Asia-Pacific region. The new groups will also cover millimetre-wave personal area communication systems, radiofrequency identification and accessibility and usability of telecommunications products and services to ensure they are accessible by a broad range of the community, including older people and people with a disability. Nominations for the groups are being sought from administrations, organisations or companies. ACA Acting Chairman Dr Bob Horton, who is also the Chairman of ASTAP, said people interested in participating should send their nomination to the APT Secretariat as soon as possible. A nomination form is available at www.aptsec.org/Program/ASTAP/ASTAP_registration-form.doc. Nominations should be sent by email to astap@aptsec.org. ?This initiative was finalised at the recent ASTAP-9 forum held in Bangkok and attended by about 100 representatives of Asia?Pacific countries and international organisations,? Dr Horton said. Draft terms of reference and proposed work items for each of the expert groups are available from the APT Secretariat by email astap@aptsec.org. The next ASTAP forum will be hosted by the new Australian Communications and Media Authority (ACMA) in Melbourne from 24 to 27 October 2005. A Voice over Internet Protocol (VoIP) and NGN workshop will follow the forum on 28 October and a workshop on accessibility and usability issues will also be held as part of the meeting. ASTAP was established to promote and coordinate expert activity in telecommunications standardisation across the Asia-Pacific region. More information about ASTAP is on the APT website at www.aptsec.org/Program/ASTAP/pastap.html or contact the ACA International Telecommunications Team at itt@aca.gov.au. ends For more information: All media enquiries: Allan Major Paul Slocum Acting Executive Manager Standards and Compliance Telephone: (03) 9963 6860 Manager Communications Telephone: (03) 9963 6966 Mobile: 0408 152 471 phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au Tue May 17 12:44:06 2005 From: glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au (Glen Turner) Date: Tue May 17 15:06:28 2005 Subject: [LINK] Re: Uni's aren't so different to schools In-Reply-To: <42880551.2040102@iss.net.au> References: <20050516011752.GA29679@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <20050516012430.GR19396@cyber.com.au> <42880551.2040102@iss.net.au> Message-ID: <42895A76.7070601@aarnet.edu.au> Brenda Aynsley wrote: > > A significant and very real problem is support. [lots of good argument chopped] Linux offers the ability to centralise support. To take the problem away from schools. So to a certain extent it doesn't matter if people at schools can sysadmin Linux or not. That's the real advantage of a system-wide rollout, as opposed to a school-by-school decision. -- Glen Turner Tel: (08) 8303 3936 or +61 8 8303 3936 Australia's Academic & Research Network www.aarnet.edu.au From lannet at lannet.com.au Tue May 17 14:17:49 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Tue May 17 15:06:47 2005 Subject: [LINK] Uni's aren't so different to schools In-Reply-To: <42895A09.2080909@aarnet.edu.au> References: <20050516011752.GA29679@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <20050516022832.GC19396@cyber.com.au> <20050516024026.GF19396@cyber.com.au> <42895A09.2080909@aarnet.edu.au> Message-ID: <4289706D.9020601@lannet.com.au> Glen Turner wrote: > > And if you want to change this, FOSS needs a real calendaring solution. > That's what sells Exchange. Executives do meetings, and they need > calendaring, and they're not going to buy anything that doesn't have > that (to them, mandatory) feature. I have just installed egroupware for a client and that does collaborative calendaring. It's FOSS too. Have you looked at it? egroupware.org -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From conz at cyber.com.au Tue May 17 14:05:10 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Tue May 17 15:07:18 2005 Subject: [LINK] Uni's aren't so different to schools In-Reply-To: <42895A09.2080909@aarnet.edu.au> References: <20050516011752.GA29679@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <20050516022832.GC19396@cyber.com.au> <20050516024026.GF19396@cyber.com.au> <42895A09.2080909@aarnet.edu.au> Message-ID: <20050517040510.GZ19396@cyber.com.au> On Tue, May 17, 2005 at 12:12:17PM +0930, Glen Turner wrote: > The person you want is called an "IT Director". You might find > it interesting to chat with former IT directors first. The former list is easy to find. How do we get the latter? -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From vicc at cia.com.au Tue May 17 10:54:29 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Deus Ex Machina) Date: Tue May 17 15:39:48 2005 Subject: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft In-Reply-To: <20050516122140.GE19396@cyber.com.au> References: <4287C504.6070500@ozemail.com.au> <20050516011955.GQ19396@cyber.com.au> <42887713.60508@ozemail.com.au> <20050516122140.GE19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <20050517005429.GA7107@cia.com.au> Con Zymaris [conz@cyber.com.au] wrote: > On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 08:33:55PM +1000, rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > > Either way, they will go with Windows or Linux when they have standard > commodity hardware. I'd rather they went with Linux. Yes all software > sucks - but Linux is cheaper and has fewer ownership costs and allows you > leverage with your vendor. vendor? which vendor? what leverage can you have with someone who externalises all the normal commercial relationships? provides zero support with zero warranty and forces you to fend for yourself on a user support group if one exists at all? unless you are talking about paying USD2500 for a version of red hat enterprise. you are pushing a bunch of ideas which sound nice in theory but ignore the fact that people wont switch for incremental gain. until linux makes the computer significantly easier. not just marginally easier the switch wont happen in any great numbers. I would even question that linux is in the slightest bit end user friendly. case in point one of our sysadmin who has a windows background has been undergoing training in linux for the last 9 months. he still couldnt work out how to quickly change the refresh rate on his screen. until you can make the computer trivially easy to use its all hot air. superior technology is of little value unless it dramatically simplifies things for the end users. Vic From brd at iimetro.com.au Tue May 17 15:56:53 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Tue May 17 15:59:04 2005 Subject: [LINK] Cybersource calls for open tendering Message-ID: <428987A5.101B96A7@iimetro.com.au> Cybersource calls for open tendering By Byron Connolly CRN 17 May 2005 15:30 AEST Software http://www.itnews.com.au/newsstory.aspx?CIaNID=18848 open source supplier Cybersource has accused some state education departments of doing "private deals" with Microsoft excluding all other vendors who supply competing system and application software. Con Zymaris -- one of Australia's most vocal open source proponents and CEO of Cybersource -- said the company was finding it hard to sell into the state-based education market. "This is because the various departments of education will not open up most of their major software purchases to more than a single supplier, namely Microsoft. This runs smack in the face of the level playing field promised for open source software," he said. "open source adoption amongst Australian governments is increasing rapidly -- but we have found that various departments of education, rather than look seriously into viable open source solutions, rather than adopt open and fair tendering, will just sign yet another private deal with Microsoft as a sole supplier to the exclusion of firms like ours, Novell, Red Hat, Sun and IBM," he said. He quoted a recent UK government report which stated that government schools could save up to 50 percent of their total computer technology (not just licence costs) by switching to Linux and open source software. He claimed that for Australian schools, this could equate to hundreds of millions of dollars in savings every year. "Every open source vendor is champing at the bit to compete strongly in the education sector. We know we can offer a better alternative. We know we can save taxpayers millions," he boasted. Commenting on the claims, a spokesperson from the Department of Education in Victoria said DET tenders in Victoria are undertaken in accordance with Victorian government purchasing board policies and guidelines. "Key elements include fairness, openness and partiality. Victoria is also party to the Australia and New Zealand government procurement agreement as well as the Australian and United States fair trade agreement. "There have been mutual obligations on each party in relation to government procurement [which] enables all suppliers to compete equally for government contracts," the spokesperson said. -- If animals could speak, the dog would be a blundering outspoken fellow; but the cat would have the rare grace of never saying a word too much. -- Mark Twain Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From brendansweb at optusnet.com.au Tue May 17 17:05:57 2005 From: brendansweb at optusnet.com.au (Brendan Scott) Date: Tue May 17 17:06:46 2005 Subject: [LINK] Cybersource calls for open tendering In-Reply-To: <428987A5.101B96A7@iimetro.com.au> References: <428987A5.101B96A7@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <428997D5.2060601@optusnet.com.au> Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > Cybersource calls for open tendering > > Commenting on the claims, a spokesperson from the Department of > Education in Victoria said DET tenders in Victoria are undertaken in > accordance with Victorian government purchasing board policies and > guidelines. > > "Key elements include fairness, openness and partiality. Victoria is Partiality?? Freudian slip? Brendan From tal at pacific.net.au Tue May 17 15:59:39 2005 From: tal at pacific.net.au (tal) Date: Tue May 17 18:09:40 2005 Subject: [LINK] Uni's aren't so different to schools In-Reply-To: <4289706D.9020601@lannet.com.au> References: <20050516011752.GA29679@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <20050516022832.GC19396@cyber.com.au> <20050516024026.GF19396@cyber.com.au> <42895A09.2080909@aarnet.edu.au> <4289706D.9020601@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <1116309579.28948.26.camel@canetoad> On Tue, 2005-05-17 at 14:17, Howard Lowndes wrote: > Glen Turner wrote: > > > > And if you want to change this, FOSS needs a real calendaring solution. > > That's what sells Exchange. Executives do meetings, and they need > > calendaring, and they're not going to buy anything that doesn't have > > that (to them, mandatory) feature. > > I have just installed egroupware for a client and that does > collaborative calendaring. It's FOSS too. Have you looked at it? > egroupware.org you might also want to look at Ximian Evolution, which i am using for this very email ... it has everything, including calendars, groups, even weather ... oh and optional PGP signature and encryption too. FOSS has a very respectable list of apps these days. Tim Lister South Sydney Greens (02)9557 4050 timlister@webspinning.org http://ssg.nsw.greens.org.au "Think Globally, Act Locally" From lannet at lannet.com.au Tue May 17 18:10:33 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Tue May 17 18:14:15 2005 Subject: [LINK] Re: Uni's aren't so different to schools In-Reply-To: <42895A76.7070601@aarnet.edu.au> References: <20050516011752.GA29679@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <20050516012430.GR19396@cyber.com.au> <42880551.2040102@iss.net.au> <42895A76.7070601@aarnet.edu.au> Message-ID: <4289A6F9.7090600@lannet.com.au> Absolutely. I do remote sysadmin onm my school client's Linux boxes. Glen Turner wrote: > Brenda Aynsley wrote: > >> >> A significant and very real problem is support. > > [lots of good argument chopped] > > Linux offers the ability to centralise support. To take the > problem away from schools. So to a certain extent it doesn't > matter if people at schools can sysadmin Linux or not. > > That's the real advantage of a system-wide rollout, as > opposed to a school-by-school decision. > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From lannet at lannet.com.au Tue May 17 18:11:18 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Tue May 17 18:14:46 2005 Subject: Bandwidth in Schools was Re: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft In-Reply-To: <428962CB.107@ramin.com.au> References: <200505162312.j4GNCn3h018333@name-ext2.dewr.gov.au> <428953DD.2090706@aarnet.edu.au> <428962CB.107@ramin.com.au> Message-ID: <4289A726.3020407@lannet.com.au> Again, FOSS to the fore with Asterisk - it rocks. Marghanita da Cruz wrote: > To add to the list VOIP to replace separate telephone lines into the > schools. > > Alternative models could also include wireless externally managed > data/network services. > > Marghanita > Glen Turner wrote: > >> Evan.ARTHUR@dest.gov.au wrote: >> >>> >>> Slightly more seriously, we would very much like to know what 'adequate >>> bandwidth' means, ... In the school context, does it mean ADSL (it >>> doesn't >> >> >> > in some overseas countries we normally compare ourselves with)? >> >> Hi Evan, >> >> I don't think it means ADSL. Here's why: >> >> 1) Vidoeconferencing. >> >> For the low-end you're looking at about 512Kbps (little >> box on screen), for the high end you're looking at about >> 4Mbps (TV). >> >> ADSL is "asymetric" -- has less capacity from the site >> than to it (256Kbps from the site is about the max). So >> it's not really a useful technology if schools want >> videoconferencing. ADSL2 is looking a lot better. >> >> Now I'm not a classroom teacher (I give uni lectures, but >> that's not the same thing), so I've no idea how useful >> or otherwise videoconferencing is to a school. But if >> you want to give them the option, then you've got to cross >> out ADSL1. >> >> 2) Sufficent bandwidth for a classroom of PCs. >> >> Lot's of homes have ADSL now, so application programmers >> are starting to assume >1Mbps of bandwidth from the server >> to the application at the site. If you start a classroom >> full of machines with applications with those sort of >> assumptions then a ADSL link isn't going to cut it. >> >> From memory your EDNA-NG document spelt out the applications >> envisaged rather well. So you could go back to that, tag >> the applications with bandwidth numbers and see what you >> get. >> >> 3) School-based services and school-created content. >> >> Schools want web servers and stuff. A lot of it is PR and >> that can be hosted rather than at the school. But if you >> see a future where the computing curriculum has "install, >> configure and populate a web servers with content" then >> you are talking about bandwidth up from the site being the >> limiting factor. >> >> It's also not clear to me if schools are going to pick up >> on the "web cam security camera" the way unis have, where >> there's hundreds of them popping up. The processing of this >> stuff is getting really clever (for example, the one in this >> building alerts security to items/bombs left in the foyer), >> so there's plenty of scope for a few people in Sydney keeping >> an eye on every NSW school. You probably need to have a chat >> with the physical security people at the state ed departments. >> >> Finally, kids find ways to fill disk and bandwidth. The creation >> of movies seems inevitable as a classroom project, given the >> falling price of cameras and current PC specs allowing digital >> movie editing. >> >> Of course, sometimes all you have is ADSL, and sometimes you can't even >> get that. I suppose the thing there is to know what you do want, so >> opportunities can be grasped. >> >> Hope this is of some help. >> >> Best wishes, >> Glen >> > > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Tue May 17 16:55:23 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Wed May 18 02:53:47 2005 Subject: Bandwidth in Schools was Re: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of Message-ID: <20050517065523.VBXZ21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> Apart from a reflexive need for cool, what is the benefit to schools of VoIP? The "corporate" benefits of VoIP may not be achievable in a school - depending on how the system is used. VoIP certainly needs more care and feeding than a good dumb key system. And eliminating PSTN may raise OH&S issues in an environment where you have to be able to call emergency services numbers ... My exact concern about computers is that there is no definition of requirements, merely a belief that we need them for some reason or other. To go VoIP for the same reason would do for Cisco what education licenses do for Microsoft ... and why the ??x?3gh should the education budget be a VoIP Vendor Subsidy scheme? RC (Also, apologies to Evan for my repeat mistake re name!). > > From: Marghanita da Cruz > Date: 17/05/2005 13:19:39 > To: Glen Turner > CC: link@anu.edu.au, Evan.ARTHUR@dest.gov.au > Subject: Bandwidth in Schools was Re: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of > Microsoft > > To add to the list VOIP to replace separate telephone lines into the > schools. > > Alternative models could also include wireless externally managed > data/network services. > > Marghanita > Glen Turner wrote: > > Evan.ARTHUR@dest.gov.au wrote: > > > >> > >> Slightly more seriously, we would very much like to know what 'adequate > >> bandwidth' means, ... In the school context, does it mean ADSL (it > >> doesn't > > > > > in some overseas countries we normally compare ourselves with)? > > > > Hi Evan, > > > > I don't think it means ADSL. Here's why: > > > > 1) Vidoeconferencing. > > > > For the low-end you're looking at about 512Kbps (little > > box on screen), for the high end you're looking at about > > 4Mbps (TV). > > > > ADSL is "asymetric" -- has less capacity from the site > > than to it (256Kbps from the site is about the max). So > > it's not really a useful technology if schools want > > videoconferencing. ADSL2 is looking a lot better. > > > > Now I'm not a classroom teacher (I give uni lectures, but > > that's not the same thing), so I've no idea how useful > > or otherwise videoconferencing is to a school. But if > > you want to give them the option, then you've got to cross > > out ADSL1. > > > > 2) Sufficent bandwidth for a classroom of PCs. > > > > Lot's of homes have ADSL now, so application programmers > > are starting to assume >1Mbps of bandwidth from the server > > to the application at the site. If you start a classroom > > full of machines with applications with those sort of > > assumptions then a ADSL link isn't going to cut it. > > > > From memory your EDNA-NG document spelt out the applications > > envisaged rather well. So you could go back to that, tag > > the applications with bandwidth numbers and see what you > > get. > > > > 3) School-based services and school-created content. > > > > Schools want web servers and stuff. A lot of it is PR and > > that can be hosted rather than at the school. But if you > > see a future where the computing curriculum has "install, > > configure and populate a web servers with content" then > > you are talking about bandwidth up from the site being the > > limiting factor. > > > > It's also not clear to me if schools are going to pick up > > on the "web cam security camera" the way unis have, where > > there's hundreds of them popping up. The processing of this > > stuff is getting really clever (for example, the one in this > > building alerts security to items/bombs left in the foyer), > > so there's plenty of scope for a few people in Sydney keeping > > an eye on every NSW school. You probably need to have a chat > > with the physical security people at the state ed departments. > > > > Finally, kids find ways to fill disk and bandwidth. The creation > > of movies seems inevitable as a classroom project, given the > > falling price of cameras and current PC specs allowing digital > > movie editing. > > > > Of course, sometimes all you have is ADSL, and sometimes you can't even > > get that. I suppose the thing there is to know what you do want, so > > opportunities can be grasped. > > > > Hope this is of some help. > > > > Best wishes, > > Glen > > > > > -- > Marghanita da Cruz > Director, Ramin Communications Pty Ltd > http://www.ramin.com.au > ABN 28-089-713-084 > > Chair ACS Governance of ICT Committee > http://www.acs.org.au/governance > > Telephone: 0414-869202 > mailto:marghanita@ramin.com.au > > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au From lannet at lannet.com.au Wed May 18 07:48:46 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Wed May 18 07:49:07 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent Message-ID: <428A66BE.6080308@lannet.com.au> Does anyone know what this patent is? http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200505/s1370967.htm Five of the world's biggest computer companies are trying to crack one of the CSIRO's patents. The CSIRO developed groundbreaking technology in 1996 that allows computers to network with each other without cables. The technology is now built in to most laptop computers and manufacturers pay the CSIRO a licence fee to use it. The CSIRO took legal action against a Japanese company earlier this year for not paying the licence fees. Now Microsoft, Dell, Hewlett Packard, Intel, Apple and Netgear are taking legal action against the CSIRO to break the US patent. The Australian Government's research arm says that any royalties collected are invested in further development and it will fight the legal action to protect its intellectual property. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From marghanita at ramin.com.au Wed May 18 08:17:42 2005 From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz) Date: Wed May 18 08:14:08 2005 Subject: Bandwidth in Schools was Re: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft In-Reply-To: <4289A726.3020407@lannet.com.au> References: <200505162312.j4GNCn3h018333@name-ext2.dewr.gov.au> <428953DD.2090706@aarnet.edu.au> <428962CB.107@ramin.com.au> <4289A726.3020407@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <428A6D86.2020804@ramin.com.au> And what is more... I even know of someone doing development of Asterisk in Sydney!!! But confess, I hadn't made the link or realised the implications until Howard pointed it out. Marghanita Howard Lowndes wrote: > Again, FOSS to the fore with Asterisk - it rocks. > > Marghanita da Cruz wrote: > >> To add to the list VOIP to replace separate telephone lines into the >> schools. >> >> Alternative models could also include wireless externally managed >> data/network services. >> >> Marghanita >> Glen Turner wrote: >> >>> Evan.ARTHUR@dest.gov.au wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Slightly more seriously, we would very much like to know what 'adequate >>>> bandwidth' means, ... In the school context, does it mean ADSL (it >>>> doesn't >>> >>> >>> >>> > in some overseas countries we normally compare ourselves with)? >>> >>> Hi Evan, >>> >>> I don't think it means ADSL. Here's why: >>> >>> 1) Vidoeconferencing. >>> >>> For the low-end you're looking at about 512Kbps (little >>> box on screen), for the high end you're looking at about >>> 4Mbps (TV). >>> >>> ADSL is "asymetric" -- has less capacity from the site >>> than to it (256Kbps from the site is about the max). So >>> it's not really a useful technology if schools want >>> videoconferencing. ADSL2 is looking a lot better. >>> >>> Now I'm not a classroom teacher (I give uni lectures, but >>> that's not the same thing), so I've no idea how useful >>> or otherwise videoconferencing is to a school. But if >>> you want to give them the option, then you've got to cross >>> out ADSL1. >>> >>> 2) Sufficent bandwidth for a classroom of PCs. >>> >>> Lot's of homes have ADSL now, so application programmers >>> are starting to assume >1Mbps of bandwidth from the server >>> to the application at the site. If you start a classroom >>> full of machines with applications with those sort of >>> assumptions then a ADSL link isn't going to cut it. >>> >>> From memory your EDNA-NG document spelt out the applications >>> envisaged rather well. So you could go back to that, tag >>> the applications with bandwidth numbers and see what you >>> get. >>> >>> 3) School-based services and school-created content. >>> >>> Schools want web servers and stuff. A lot of it is PR and >>> that can be hosted rather than at the school. But if you >>> see a future where the computing curriculum has "install, >>> configure and populate a web servers with content" then >>> you are talking about bandwidth up from the site being the >>> limiting factor. >>> >>> It's also not clear to me if schools are going to pick up >>> on the "web cam security camera" the way unis have, where >>> there's hundreds of them popping up. The processing of this >>> stuff is getting really clever (for example, the one in this >>> building alerts security to items/bombs left in the foyer), >>> so there's plenty of scope for a few people in Sydney keeping >>> an eye on every NSW school. You probably need to have a chat >>> with the physical security people at the state ed departments. >>> >>> Finally, kids find ways to fill disk and bandwidth. The creation >>> of movies seems inevitable as a classroom project, given the >>> falling price of cameras and current PC specs allowing digital >>> movie editing. >>> >>> Of course, sometimes all you have is ADSL, and sometimes you can't even >>> get that. I suppose the thing there is to know what you do want, so >>> opportunities can be grasped. >>> >>> Hope this is of some help. >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> Glen >>> >> >> > -- Marghanita da Cruz Director, Ramin Communications Pty Ltd http://www.ramin.com.au ABN 28-089-713-084 Chair ACS Governance of ICT Committee http://www.acs.org.au/governance Telephone: 0414-869202 mailto:marghanita@ramin.com.au From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Wed May 18 08:15:31 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Wed May 18 08:15:38 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <428A66BE.6080308@lannet.com.au> References: <428A66BE.6080308@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <428A6D03.8010109@ozemail.com.au> Howard, not specifically, but I would guess it's associated with the developments which later became Radiata (bought by Cisco and shut down last year). Richard Chirgwin Howard Lowndes wrote: > > Does anyone know what this patent is? > > > http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200505/s1370967.htm > > Five of the world's biggest computer companies are trying to crack one > of the CSIRO's patents. > > The CSIRO developed groundbreaking technology in 1996 that allows > computers to network with each other without cables. > > The technology is now built in to most laptop computers and > manufacturers pay the CSIRO a licence fee to use it. > > The CSIRO took legal action against a Japanese company earlier this > year for not paying the licence fees. > > Now Microsoft, Dell, Hewlett Packard, Intel, Apple and Netgear are > taking legal action against the CSIRO to break the US patent. > > The Australian Government's research arm says that any royalties > collected are invested in further development and it will fight the > legal action to protect its intellectual property. > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Link mailing list >Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > > From lannet at lannet.com.au Wed May 18 09:43:16 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Wed May 18 10:05:19 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <428A6D03.8010109@ozemail.com.au> References: <428A66BE.6080308@lannet.com.au> <428A6D03.8010109@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <428A8194.7010105@lannet.com.au> rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > Howard, not specifically, but I would guess it's associated with the > developments which later became Radiata (bought by Cisco and shut down > last year). So, the patent didn't get sold to Cisco? And why are the big guys trying to get a patent on a closed project broken. It just doesn't add up. > > Richard Chirgwin > > Howard Lowndes wrote: > >> >> Does anyone know what this patent is? >> >> >> http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200505/s1370967.htm >> >> Five of the world's biggest computer companies are trying to crack one >> of the CSIRO's patents. >> >> The CSIRO developed groundbreaking technology in 1996 that allows >> computers to network with each other without cables. >> >> The technology is now built in to most laptop computers and >> manufacturers pay the CSIRO a licence fee to use it. >> >> The CSIRO took legal action against a Japanese company earlier this >> year for not paying the licence fees. >> >> Now Microsoft, Dell, Hewlett Packard, Intel, Apple and Netgear are >> taking legal action against the CSIRO to break the US patent. >> >> The Australian Government's research arm says that any royalties >> collected are invested in further development and it will fight the >> legal action to protect its intellectual property. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Link mailing list >> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Wed May 18 09:49:25 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Wed May 18 10:21:11 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent Message-ID: <20050517234925.VQJT21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> And following up ... the patent covers OFDM, it was filed by a group led by Dr David Skellern after many years of development (I interviewed him in the 1980s for Electronics News, he was already prominent in microwave technology). This technology was first commercialised in the Radiata spinoff, which was then acquired by Cisco. Cisco then shut down that operation last year - which I suppose makes life easier for the plaintiffs. Their complaint, boo-hoo, is that CSIRO is charging them too much for the royalties, oh dear. I seem to have mislaid my "sympathy for huge companies wanting to exclude the rest of the world from owning anything" gland, has anyone seen it around? The hypocricy is stunning; this is a group of the cheerleaders of junk patents trying to break a patent for real technology (the foundation of 802.11a). Richard Chirgwin > > From: "rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au" > Date: 18/05/2005 8:15:31 > To: Mail List LINK > Subject: Re: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent > > Howard, not specifically, but I would guess it's associated with the > developments which later became Radiata (bought by Cisco and shut down > last year). > > Richard Chirgwin > > Howard Lowndes wrote: > > > > > Does anyone know what this patent is? > > > > > > http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200505/s1370967.htm > > > > Five of the world's biggest computer companies are trying to crack one > > of the CSIRO's patents. > > > > The CSIRO developed groundbreaking technology in 1996 that allows > > computers to network with each other without cables. > > > > The technology is now built in to most laptop computers and > > manufacturers pay the CSIRO a licence fee to use it. > > > > The CSIRO took legal action against a Japanese company earlier this > > year for not paying the licence fees. > > > > Now Microsoft, Dell, Hewlett Packard, Intel, Apple and Netgear are > > taking legal action against the CSIRO to break the US patent. > > > > The Australian Government's research arm says that any royalties > > collected are invested in further development and it will fight the > > legal action to protect its intellectual property. > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Link mailing list > >Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > >http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au From glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au Wed May 18 10:39:48 2005 From: glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au (Glen Turner) Date: Wed May 18 10:43:49 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <428A6D03.8010109@ozemail.com.au> References: <428A66BE.6080308@lannet.com.au> <428A6D03.8010109@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <428A8ED4.50901@aarnet.edu.au> rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > Howard, not specifically, but I would guess it's associated with the > developments which later became Radiata (bought by Cisco and shut down > last year). That's my reading. CSIRO's got a patent related to orthogonal frequency-division multiplexing (OFDM) used in 802.11g, 802.11a and 802.11n. This was only licensed to Radiata, so didn't move to Cisco with the sale of that business. What we are seeing now is the IEEE finally reaching closure on technologies for 802.11n and manufacturers weeding out the patent holders who have claims on that technology to a small a group as possible. Manufacturers saw what happened with GSM and 3G (where lots of perhaps-dodgy patents got license revenue) and seem determined that 802.11n won't go down the same path. Of course, CSIRO would probably be overjoyed if 802.11n patent holders got renumerated to the same extent as GSM patent holders. If reports that CSIRO want $4 per chipset are right, then no wonder the manufacturers are doing all they can not to pay. A little litigation seems a small cost. The patent listed in the IEEE register of patent letters of assurance (that licensors will offer "reasonable and non-discriminatory" terms) is 5,487,069 (US). You can see it at: Having read the patent I'm not going to comment on the strength of the patent's claims as it turns out I know three of the inventors. Rather than reading the patent you're probably better off reading one of the references at the top. Patent claims are written in a peculiar form of English so that claims have the maximum odds of withstanding litigation. This has the disturbing effect of making even deep discoveries seem trivial. -- Glen Turner Tel: (08) 8303 3936 or +61 8 8303 3936 Australia's Academic & Research Network www.aarnet.edu.au From glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au Wed May 18 10:40:56 2005 From: glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au (Glen Turner) Date: Wed May 18 10:43:56 2005 Subject: Bandwidth in Schools was Re: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of In-Reply-To: <20050517065523.VBXZ21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> References: <20050517065523.VBXZ21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> Message-ID: <428A8F18.9000109@aarnet.edu.au> Hi Richard, rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > Apart from a reflexive need for cool, what is the benefit to schools of VoIP? Cheaper phone calls :-) > The "corporate" benefits of VoIP may not be achievable in a school - > depending on how the system is used. I don't know what corporate benefits you mean, but from a financial point of view VoIP makes sense because the the sheer number of sites and the high number of intra-community calls. > And eliminating PSTN may raise OH&S issues in an environment where > you have to be able to call emergency services numbers ... Why would you eliminate PSTN for 000? Run in one line to the VoIP gateway and use it for 000 calls and calls when the VoIP network is down. The line rental isn't what's eating the cash, it's the calls placed on the line. I didn't mention VoIP because it doesn't determine the bandwidth requirement. Each call uses about 5.5Kbps. VoIP does need significantly better engnieering than a lot of ISPs have, but an education dept is in the position of being able to demand that. The wireless suggestion seem to me to be much more odd than the VoIP comment. Cheers, Glen -- Glen Turner Tel: (08) 8303 3936 or +61 8 8303 3936 Australia's Academic & Research Network www.aarnet.edu.au From reagan at whatever.net.au Wed May 18 10:44:46 2005 From: reagan at whatever.net.au (Reagan Blundell) Date: Wed May 18 11:05:52 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <428A66BE.6080308@lannet.com.au> References: <428A66BE.6080308@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <20050518004446.GA7587@desire.whatever.net.au> On Wed, May 18, 2005 at 07:48:46AM +1000, Howard Lowndes wrote: > Does anyone know what this patent is? I found a page on netstumbler's site that mentions a WLAN patent from the CSIRO that they're actively licensing: http://www.netstumbler.com/2005/04/12/wimax_802.11n_renew_patent_debate/ Another patent claim is coming from the Australian Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization (CSIRO) regarding OFDM technology, part of 802.11a/g/ and 11n. One former executive of a top-ranked computer maker alleges the organization is asking a $4 licensing fee for each chipset using OFDM technology, amounting to up to 70 percent of a chipset's price. Info on OFDM can be found here: http://www.netstumbler.com/whatis/wiki/OFDM From lannet at lannet.com.au Wed May 18 09:44:23 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Wed May 18 11:11:54 2005 Subject: Bandwidth in Schools was Re: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft In-Reply-To: <428A6D86.2020804@ramin.com.au> References: <200505162312.j4GNCn3h018333@name-ext2.dewr.gov.au> <428953DD.2090706@aarnet.edu.au> <428962CB.107@ramin.com.au> <4289A726.3020407@lannet.com.au> <428A6D86.2020804@ramin.com.au> Message-ID: <428A81D7.90502@lannet.com.au> Marghanita da Cruz wrote: > And what is more... I even know of someone doing development of Asterisk > in Sydney!!! I ahve done a lot of development on Asterisk right here in Albury :) > > But confess, I hadn't made the link or realised the implications until > Howard pointed it out. > > Marghanita > Howard Lowndes wrote: > >> Again, FOSS to the fore with Asterisk - it rocks. >> >> Marghanita da Cruz wrote: >> >>> To add to the list VOIP to replace separate telephone lines into the >>> schools. >>> >>> Alternative models could also include wireless externally managed >>> data/network services. >>> >>> Marghanita >>> Glen Turner wrote: >>> >>>> Evan.ARTHUR@dest.gov.au wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Slightly more seriously, we would very much like to know what >>>>> 'adequate >>>>> bandwidth' means, ... In the school context, does it mean ADSL (it >>>>> doesn't >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > in some overseas countries we normally compare ourselves with)? >>>> >>>> Hi Evan, >>>> >>>> I don't think it means ADSL. Here's why: >>>> >>>> 1) Vidoeconferencing. >>>> >>>> For the low-end you're looking at about 512Kbps (little >>>> box on screen), for the high end you're looking at about >>>> 4Mbps (TV). >>>> >>>> ADSL is "asymetric" -- has less capacity from the site >>>> than to it (256Kbps from the site is about the max). So >>>> it's not really a useful technology if schools want >>>> videoconferencing. ADSL2 is looking a lot better. >>>> >>>> Now I'm not a classroom teacher (I give uni lectures, but >>>> that's not the same thing), so I've no idea how useful >>>> or otherwise videoconferencing is to a school. But if >>>> you want to give them the option, then you've got to cross >>>> out ADSL1. >>>> >>>> 2) Sufficent bandwidth for a classroom of PCs. >>>> >>>> Lot's of homes have ADSL now, so application programmers >>>> are starting to assume >1Mbps of bandwidth from the server >>>> to the application at the site. If you start a classroom >>>> full of machines with applications with those sort of >>>> assumptions then a ADSL link isn't going to cut it. >>>> >>>> From memory your EDNA-NG document spelt out the applications >>>> envisaged rather well. So you could go back to that, tag >>>> the applications with bandwidth numbers and see what you >>>> get. >>>> >>>> 3) School-based services and school-created content. >>>> >>>> Schools want web servers and stuff. A lot of it is PR and >>>> that can be hosted rather than at the school. But if you >>>> see a future where the computing curriculum has "install, >>>> configure and populate a web servers with content" then >>>> you are talking about bandwidth up from the site being the >>>> limiting factor. >>>> >>>> It's also not clear to me if schools are going to pick up >>>> on the "web cam security camera" the way unis have, where >>>> there's hundreds of them popping up. The processing of this >>>> stuff is getting really clever (for example, the one in this >>>> building alerts security to items/bombs left in the foyer), >>>> so there's plenty of scope for a few people in Sydney keeping >>>> an eye on every NSW school. You probably need to have a chat >>>> with the physical security people at the state ed departments. >>>> >>>> Finally, kids find ways to fill disk and bandwidth. The creation >>>> of movies seems inevitable as a classroom project, given the >>>> falling price of cameras and current PC specs allowing digital >>>> movie editing. >>>> >>>> Of course, sometimes all you have is ADSL, and sometimes you can't even >>>> get that. I suppose the thing there is to know what you do want, so >>>> opportunities can be grasped. >>>> >>>> Hope this is of some help. >>>> >>>> Best wishes, >>>> Glen >>>> >>> >>> >> > > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From vicc at cia.com.au Wed May 18 11:00:14 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Deus Ex Machina) Date: Wed May 18 11:16:20 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050517234925.VQJT21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> References: <20050517234925.VQJT21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> Message-ID: <20050518010014.GA27640@cia.com.au> this shouldnt bother you, you dont like patents. Vic rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au [rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au] wrote: > And following up ... the patent covers OFDM, it was filed by a group led by Dr David Skellern after many years of development (I interviewed him in the 1980s for Electronics News, he was already prominent in microwave technology). > > This technology was first commercialised in the Radiata spinoff, which was then acquired by Cisco. Cisco then shut down that operation last year - which I suppose makes life easier for the plaintiffs. > > Their complaint, boo-hoo, is that CSIRO is charging them too much for the royalties, oh dear. I seem to have mislaid my "sympathy for huge companies wanting to exclude the rest of the world from owning anything" gland, has anyone seen it around? > > The hypocricy is stunning; this is a group of the cheerleaders of junk patents trying to break a patent for real technology (the foundation of 802.11a). > > Richard Chirgwin > From cas at taz.net.au Wed May 18 11:25:17 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Wed May 18 11:25:31 2005 Subject: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of Microsoft In-Reply-To: <428953DD.2090706@aarnet.edu.au> References: <200505162312.j4GNCn3h018333@name-ext2.dewr.gov.au> <428953DD.2090706@aarnet.edu.au> Message-ID: <20050518012517.GA18150@taz.net.au> On Tue, May 17, 2005 at 11:45:57AM +0930, Glen Turner wrote: > 2) Sufficent bandwidth for a classroom of PCs. > > Lot's of homes have ADSL now, so application programmers > are starting to assume >1Mbps of bandwidth from the server > to the application at the site. no they don't. no application developer can have any idea how much bandwidth is available to the end-user. more importantly, they only have a limited amount of outbound bandwidth themselves and they're not going to allocate or assume a whole 1 Mbps to one user. i.e. their outbound BW is a scarce and precious resource. if they do anything at all to monitor or control outbound bandwidth, they're far more likely to throttle each individual user down to <64Kbps....but (unless they're a heavily overloaded site) they probably won't do anything at all to manage bandwidth. > If you start a classroom full of machines with applications with > those sort of assumptions then a ADSL link isn't going to cut it. this is what proxies are for. web browsing, email, and other "ordinary" uses of the internet are no problem. for a classroom, even a 64K ISDN link is adequate for these tasks if you have a caching proxy....ADSL should be more than enough for most schools. the real bandwidth killer in schools is, like anywhere else, audio & video streaming, and warez downloading. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au Wed May 18 11:29:54 2005 From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington) Date: Wed May 18 11:32:28 2005 Subject: [LINK] History will vanish into the ether In-Reply-To: <42813C56.2AE523B7@iimetro.com.au> References: <42813C56.2AE523B7@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050511140737.03c94108@fastmail.fm> At 08:57 AM 5/11/2005, Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: >History will vanish into the ether Toss Gascoigne MAY 11, 2005 The >Australian >http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,15241232%5E15309%5E%5Enbv%5E,00.html > >TRACKING down government reports is a growing problem for researchers in >Australia. Originally published on the web, many reports have become >unavailable or difficult to find. ... The UK Government took the easy option by making the Internet Archive official (it had been taking copies of government reports for years) . I find a lot of old Australian Government stuff in the archive . >... webmasters, under pressure to run a tidy site, decide to cut some of >the older material. ... Some departmental web masters decided to cut material last time their was a change of federal government. We had to make some policy as what to do. Even if the approach taken then no longer applies, any public servant (and company employee) must know it is a crime to destroy records without authority. >There are no national protocols for how web-based material should be >selected and preserved and made available in a systematic way in Australia >today. ... There are procedures for preserving government material which have been adapted to the web. I teach some of this stuff to ANU e-commerce students . >Material that had been available on the web but has now disappeared >included: > >-> The AGPS Style Manual, available in full on the web a few years ago As AGPS explain the Style manual is now published by John Wiley & Sons (sixth edition, February 2002). A commercial publisher is unlikely to want to give away free copies on-line. The PDF version of the previous edition (1994) is still at . >-> Ministerial releases issued before 2004 have been recently removed >from the Northern Territory Government website The NT releases back to mid 2002 are in the Internet Archive: >-> The National Plan for Women in Agriculture and Resource Management >which came out in the mid 1990s. ... The plan is in the Internet Archive but I was unable to open it (may be damaged) . This took a couple of minutes to find because the title and date given were inaccurate. The document is "A Vision for Change - National Plan for Women in Agriculture and Resource Management" and came out in the late (not mid) 1990s (November 1998). >... Perhaps the answer to the issue in Australia lies in the adoption of >legislation with a similar intent to New Zealand's Public Records Bill ... We have such legislation and our National Archives Office is building an advanced e-archiving system. Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 http://www.tomw.net.au PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 Visiting Fellow, Computer Science, Australian National University From josh at email.nu Wed May 18 11:33:05 2005 From: josh at email.nu (Josh Rowe) Date: Wed May 18 11:35:31 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <428A66BE.6080308@lannet.com.au> References: <428A66BE.6080308@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <20050518013305.GA8417@whim.sanctum.com.au> CSIRO defends it's intellectual property http://www.csiro.au/index.asp?type=mediaRelease&id=IntellectualProperty Some of the world's most significant suppliers of Wireless Local Area Network (Wireless LAN) devices have initiated legal action in the US to try to stop Australia's Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO)* obtaining reasonable royalties on its key US WLAN patent, it was confirmed today. Dr Geoff Garrett, Chief Executive of CSIRO, said the US Wireless LAN patent was granted in 1996. The patent is considered essential for implementing wireless local area networks that comply with several IEEE standards, and is now a standard feature of most notebook computers and many other devices. The companies involved include Microsoft, Dell, Hewlett-Packard, Intel, Apple and Netgear. Dr Garrett said CSIRO's patented system made it possible to increase the speed of WLAN by a factor of five. He emphasized that CSIRO has a strong background and history in advanced wireless systems. "For example, as far back as July 1969, CSIRO helped bring the television pictures of the Apollo 11 Moon landing to a worldwide TV audience of 600 million people. In 1970, we helped Apollo Astronauts Jim Lovell, Jack Swigert and Fred Haise get home on Apollo 13 by making our Parkes radio telescope available to communicate with the stricken spacecraft." CSIRO offered licenses on reasonable and non-discriminatory terms to major suppliers as soon as they started selling devices which used the CSIRO technology. In February 2005, CSIRO began legal action in the US against Buffalo Technology, a Japanese owned company, which had unilaterally terminated negotiations with CSIRO in relation to a license. Dr Garrett said: "As part of our business we create high quality intellectual property, and we are prepared to defend it. We actively encourage the utilization of the results of research in industry and communities, both nationally and globally, and any royalty income will be reinvested in further research." *Note for International media: CSIRO is the national research agency of the Australian Government. It undertakes scientific research for the purpose of assisting Australian industry, furthering the interests of the Australian community and contributing to the achievement of national objectives. Media Assistance: Marilyn Chalkley, CSIRO Media (02) 6276 6859, 0418 624 304 Josh -- http://josh.id.au/ From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Wed May 18 11:38:46 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Wed May 18 11:39:52 2005 Subject: Bandwidth in Schools was Re: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid Message-ID: <20050518013846.BAMV8920.swebmail00.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> Glen, > > rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > > Apart from a reflexive need for cool, what is the benefit to schools of VoIP? > > Cheaper phone calls :-) ...If the school in question makes a lot of calls which in a VoIP world can be considered on-network calls. If not, forget it: for example, if the schools were to have to go out to the world of VoIP service providers, the risks outweigh the benefits. AARNET is the most advanced user of VoIP, but this (IMO) makes AARNET the least accurate template for the rest of the world! If the intra-community calls (on-network) calls you've experienced at AARNET are matched by Suburban Dump Primary or nearby Struggle Street High. > > > And eliminating PSTN may raise OH&S issues in an environment where > > you have to be able to call emergency services numbers ... > > Why would you eliminate PSTN for 000? I would not; I made the remark in response to the original VoIP post which said "get rid of schools' PSTN lines and put in VoIP"... As with all telecomms, the only way to ensure saving is to start by analysing the spend... if the schools get a top-down, religious, "Do VoIP" from the state Dept. of Ed., we will end up with ambulance-chasing stories in 2006 ... RC This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au From marghanita at ramin.com.au Wed May 18 11:36:42 2005 From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz) Date: Wed May 18 11:43:52 2005 Subject: Bandwidth in Schools was Re: [LINK] Lesson number one: get rid of In-Reply-To: <428A8F18.9000109@aarnet.edu.au> References: <20050517065523.VBXZ21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <428A8F18.9000109@aarnet.edu.au> Message-ID: <428A9C2A.8000405@ramin.com.au> That's because of the assumptions you are making about the network topology/architecture/businesss model. It is also worth bearing in mind that there are two significant groups of stakeholders in Schools and Universities - the staff and the students. Marghanita Glen Turner wrote: > The wireless suggestion seem to me to be much more odd than the > VoIP comment. > > Cheers, > Glen > -- Marghanita da Cruz Director, Ramin Communications Pty Ltd http://www.ramin.com.au ABN 28-089-713-084 Chair ACS Governance of ICT Committee http://www.acs.org.au/governance Telephone: 0414-869202 mailto:marghanita@ramin.com.au From julian_bajkowski at idg.com.au Wed May 18 11:47:32 2005 From: julian_bajkowski at idg.com.au (julian_bajkowski@idg.com.au) Date: Wed May 18 11:44:15 2005 Subject: [LINK] CSIRO say they are defending it to the hilt Message-ID: CSIRO are defending it to the hilt. http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;932465284;fp;16;fpid;0 From vicc at cia.com.au Wed May 18 11:56:17 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Deus Ex Machina) Date: Wed May 18 11:57:57 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050518013423.GX19396@cyber.com.au> References: <20050517234925.VQJT21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <20050518010014.GA27640@cia.com.au> <20050518013423.GX19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> I wouldnt know I dont own any patents nor develop software for distribution. however it does seems counterintuitive to me that patents restrict innovation if nothing because there are infinite possible ideas and 300000 patents is not even a drop within a drop: http://weblog.ipcentral.info/archives/2005/05/prof_robert_mer.html "but the bottom line is that patents are associated with success (particularly later-round venture capital financing) in the software industry" from the quoted paper http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=510103 "Relying on interviews that I conducted and publicly available information, I show that the development of young firms in the software industry is not significantly constrained by the existence of large patent portfolios in the hands of incumbent firms." Vic Con Zymaris [conz@cyber.com.au] wrote: > On Wed, May 18, 2005 at 11:00:14AM +1000, Deus Ex Machina wrote: > > this shouldnt bother you, you dont like patents. > > > > Patents are OK in the physical space. Software patents however are a > disaster for most software developers. > > The fact that some developers don't grok this merely means that they > haven't noticed they are standing in the middle of a field which has been > sowed with 300,000 software idea patent land mines. > > Every move you make with your code base likely tresspasses on some US > software patent and is thus likely to blow up in your face. > > It's almost impossible to craft any non-trivial application nowdays > without tresspassing _some_ US software patents. This is bad. > > But anyway. we digress from the topic at hand. > > -- > ___________________________________________________________________________ > Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia > Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company > Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 > > From lannet at lannet.com.au Wed May 18 11:35:09 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Wed May 18 12:01:37 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050517234925.VQJT21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> References: <20050517234925.VQJT21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> Message-ID: <428A9BCD.3020206@lannet.com.au> What's the betting that the gummint tells CSIRO to prepare itself for BOHICA (Bend Over Here It Comes Again), and to drop their royalty claims. After all, we can't be upsetting our US FTA partners now, can we. rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > And following up ... the patent covers OFDM, it was filed by a group led by Dr David Skellern after many years of development (I interviewed him in the 1980s for Electronics News, he was already prominent in microwave technology). > > This technology was first commercialised in the Radiata spinoff, which was then acquired by Cisco. Cisco then shut down that operation last year - which I suppose makes life easier for the plaintiffs. > > Their complaint, boo-hoo, is that CSIRO is charging them too much for the royalties, oh dear. I seem to have mislaid my "sympathy for huge companies wanting to exclude the rest of the world from owning anything" gland, has anyone seen it around? > > The hypocricy is stunning; this is a group of the cheerleaders of junk patents trying to break a patent for real technology (the foundation of 802.11a). > > Richard Chirgwin > > > >>From: "rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au" >>Date: 18/05/2005 8:15:31 >>To: Mail List LINK >>Subject: Re: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent >> >>Howard, not specifically, but I would guess it's associated with the >>developments which later became Radiata (bought by Cisco and shut down >>last year). >> >>Richard Chirgwin >> >>Howard Lowndes wrote: >> >> >>> >>>Does anyone know what this patent is? >>> >>> >>>http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200505/s1370967.htm >>> >>>Five of the world's biggest computer companies are trying to crack one >>>of the CSIRO's patents. >>> >>>The CSIRO developed groundbreaking technology in 1996 that allows >>>computers to network with each other without cables. >>> >>>The technology is now built in to most laptop computers and >>>manufacturers pay the CSIRO a licence fee to use it. >>> >>>The CSIRO took legal action against a Japanese company earlier this >>>year for not paying the licence fees. >>> >>>Now Microsoft, Dell, Hewlett Packard, Intel, Apple and Netgear are >>>taking legal action against the CSIRO to break the US patent. >>> >>>The Australian Government's research arm says that any royalties >>>collected are invested in further development and it will fight the >>>legal action to protect its intellectual property. >>> >>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Link mailing list >>>Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >>>http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link >>> >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Link mailing list >>Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >>http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link >> > > > This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au > > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From conz at cyber.com.au Wed May 18 12:22:56 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Wed May 18 12:23:28 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> References: <20050517234925.VQJT21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <20050518010014.GA27640@cia.com.au> <20050518013423.GX19396@cyber.com.au> <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <20050518022256.GD19396@cyber.com.au> On Wed, May 18, 2005 at 11:56:17AM +1000, Deus Ex Machina wrote: > I wouldnt know I dont own any patents nor develop software for > distribution. however it does seems counterintuitive to me that > patents restrict innovation if nothing because there are infinite > possible ideas and 300000 patents is not even a drop within a drop: As a software devloper for 26 years, I can tell you that it is a problem. Not here though. Yet. > > http://weblog.ipcentral.info/archives/2005/05/prof_robert_mer.html > > "but the bottom line is that patents are associated with success > (particularly later-round venture capital financing) in the software > industry" Sure, venture capitalists see value, but so what? Every firm doing sofwtare development within the IP-risk realm of the US patent system (which could be us in a few years) is potentially at risk of being whacked. Individual firms can be sold on the concept that they may end up with some valuable patent IP until it's pointed out to them that their codebase reciprocally violates the patent rights of others. That tends to deflate their rosy view if patents in software, fast. > from the quoted paper > http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=510103 > > "Relying on interviews that I conducted and publicly available > information, I show that the development of young firms in the software > industry is not significantly constrained by the existence of large > patent portfolios in the hands of incumbent firms." As I said, most developers don't understand the implications - especially those in 'young' firms. The only people who win in the software patent process are: 1) Big firms that amass warchests of patents and do deals to avert Mutually Assured Patent Destruction amongst themselves, but who raise the barrier to entry of every other (SME) player. 2) Lawyers who play in this space.[1] 3) Patent offices who feed off the revenue from their new 'clients' and who would prefer no diminuition of software patent growth. 4) 'Patent terrorist' firms which only do patents, not code. These are the equivalents to 'nuclear terrorist' states that can even attack the patent superpowers without fear of retaliation. [1] At least the lawyers aren't dumb. Ask them why they fight tooth and nail against the introduction of business process patents within the legal realm itself ;-) -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From conz at cyber.com.au Wed May 18 11:34:23 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Wed May 18 12:58:19 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050518010014.GA27640@cia.com.au> References: <20050517234925.VQJT21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <20050518010014.GA27640@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <20050518013423.GX19396@cyber.com.au> On Wed, May 18, 2005 at 11:00:14AM +1000, Deus Ex Machina wrote: > this shouldnt bother you, you dont like patents. > Patents are OK in the physical space. Software patents however are a disaster for most software developers. The fact that some developers don't grok this merely means that they haven't noticed they are standing in the middle of a field which has been sowed with 300,000 software idea patent land mines. Every move you make with your code base likely tresspasses on some US software patent and is thus likely to blow up in your face. It's almost impossible to craft any non-trivial application nowdays without tresspassing _some_ US software patents. This is bad. But anyway. we digress from the topic at hand. -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From brd at iimetro.com.au Wed May 18 14:27:34 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Wed May 18 14:28:04 2005 Subject: [LINK] Parliamentary paperless coup aborted Message-ID: <428AC436.AEFCF25C@iimetro.com.au> What was Richard Chirgwin saying about getting requirements sorted out early? IMHO, the biggest problem IT developers have in building a system is recognising that people are an integral part of the system and that requirements are not "gathered" they are formulated/identified/agreed/prioritised/sorted and, most of all, compromises are made, as the system is architected/designed. Parliamentary paperless coup aborted Julian Bajkowski Computerworld 18/05/2005 10:12:15 http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php?id=210932652&eid=-6787 Australia's elected representatives have shown just how ugly IT cost-cutting exercises can become if users are not consulted. An opt-in option has produced an uneasy truce over attempts to force-march senators onto electronic documents and away from paper. Federal senators are now able to receive their daily fix of Hansard - the official record and transcripts of parliamentary proceedings - in both electronic and printed formats due to the an opt-in solution, but only after a startling admission by the Secretary of the Department of Parliamentary Reporting Services (DPRS), Hilary Penfold QC, that an attempted paperless parliamentary coup had quite literally been stuffed up. The unruly saga started in December 2004 when DPRS decided it could kill some $250,000 in printing costs by cutting out paper copies of Hansard to the Parliament House recipients - but neglected to tell its senatorial user community about the move until February. "We did not do well in communicating what was going to happen. All I can say is that we stuffed it up," Penfold told an irate Labor Senator John Faulkner at a recent Senate Estimates committee hearing. Unconvinced, Faulkner demanded answers as to who was consulted about the shift to an electronic-only system. Penfold replied that nobody outside her office was consulted about the shift. However, Penfold bravely insisted elected representatives and their staff could still access Hansard through the "Senators' and Members' Services Portal", noting some politicians "would not miss the regular delivery of large chunks of paper which we later in the week or month had to remove from the building". The suggestion of a more modern means of content delivery did not go down well. "What hope in Hades have you got of using that [the portal] when you are about to get to your feet in the chamber? Zero," user Faulkner responded. Then came the admission that rather than shifting to a purely paperless model, parliamentarians were actually expected to print out (preferably double-sided) what they needed from Hansard on their own office printers rather than having it delivered to their door, thus raising questions over whether there was any real saving on printing...or that printing costs were merely being transferred. Asked if there was any bottom-line saving to the taxpayer in senators printing off their own Hansard, Penfold conceded, "We did not work out what the alternative cost would be... we knew there would a certain amount of cost shifting." Then there was the availability of printers. "We had a day last week when we could not print anything in this place," protested Labor Senator Michael Forshaw. Asked by Senator Faulkner whether it was fair to say the attempt at paperless Hansard was "basically a complete foul up", Penfold was diplomatic in defeat. "I would agree with you that we have not covered ourselves in glory in terms of how we implemented it," she said. -- By the turn of this century, we will live in a paperless society. -- Roger Smith Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From link at todd.inoz.com Wed May 18 12:39:24 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Wed May 18 14:30:19 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050517234925.VQJT21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@local host> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050518123733.033b4008@wheresmymailserver.com> At 09:49 18/05/2005 +1000, rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: >This technology was first commercialised in the Radiata spinoff, which was >then acquired by Cisco. Cisco then shut down that operation last year - >which I suppose makes life easier for the plaintiffs. Not really. It just means that an Exclusive Licence that may have been assigned to Cisco no longer applies and the Patent Owner now has the right to collection from the licencees. I'm SURE CSIRO were covered in the agreement to that end. >Their complaint, boo-hoo, is that CSIRO is charging them too much for the >royalties, oh dear. I seem to have mislaid my "sympathy for huge companies >wanting to exclude the rest of the world from owning anything" gland, has >anyone seen it around? When you find it can you determine whether it's sliceable and able to be grafted for me - mine died a long time ago. I'm looking for a transplant. It works like the liver right? Or is that the kidney? >The hypocricy is stunning; this is a group of the cheerleaders of junk >patents trying to break a patent for real technology (the foundation of >802.11a). I'll back CSIRO :) From link at todd.inoz.com Wed May 18 12:36:41 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Wed May 18 14:30:30 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <428A66BE.6080308@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050518123534.035d1510@wheresmymailserver.com> I'm more interested in the POT KETTLE BLACK facet of this story! Don't Microsoft keep suing people over patents that they register AFTER other people have freely developed and released the processes world wide on the net? Good thing Amazon isn't listed here, I recall it's "Buy It" Click patent drama! At 07:48 18/05/2005 +1000, Howard Lowndes wrote: > >Does anyone know what this patent is? > > >http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200505/s1370967.htm > >Five of the world's biggest computer companies are trying to crack one of >the CSIRO's patents. > >The CSIRO developed groundbreaking technology in 1996 that allows >computers to network with each other without cables. > >The technology is now built in to most laptop computers and manufacturers >pay the CSIRO a licence fee to use it. > >The CSIRO took legal action against a Japanese company earlier this year >for not paying the licence fees. > >Now Microsoft, Dell, Hewlett Packard, Intel, Apple and Netgear are taking >legal action against the CSIRO to break the US patent. > >The Australian Government's research arm says that any royalties collected >are invested in further development and it will fight the legal action to >protect its intellectual property. > >-- >Howard. >LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people >-- >When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; >When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. >-- >Flatter government, not fatter government; >Get rid of the Australian states. > > >_______________________________________________ >Link mailing list >Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link From link at todd.inoz.com Wed May 18 12:43:45 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Wed May 18 14:30:43 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <428A8ED4.50901@aarnet.edu.au> References: <428A6D03.8010109@ozemail.com.au> <428A66BE.6080308@lannet.com.au> <428A6D03.8010109@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050518124019.0348dea8@wheresmymailserver.com> >If reports that CSIRO want $4 per chipset are right, then >no wonder the manufacturers are doing all they can not >to pay. A little litigation seems a small cost. Maybe so. But perhaps the Giants haven't bothered to present CSIRO with a realistic forecast. I don't see CSIRO being greedy! The more they get in from external patents and licences the less Government support they get - ok sure, CSIRO can twiddle the books too. But that's not the point. I'd love to see more licence revenue come into CSIRO, even if it's still heavily Government, it's about the only R&D left in Australia today that has any hope of developing anything snazzy in the future. Perhaps $4 is too much per licence, but I'll bet given the right figures, CSIRO might be negotiable :) From marghanita at ramin.com.au Wed May 18 15:35:47 2005 From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz) Date: Wed May 18 15:35:09 2005 Subject: [LINK] Parliamentary paperless coup aborted In-Reply-To: <428AC436.AEFCF25C@iimetro.com.au> References: <428AC436.AEFCF25C@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <428AD433.2060504@ramin.com.au> The solution isn't as simple as consulting prospective users or even putting them in charge. Check out the Victorian Parliamentary fiasco a couple of year's back. http://www.audit.vic.gov.au/reports_other/agparlynetcv.html Are IT developers something similar to property developers? Marghanita Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > > What was Richard Chirgwin saying about getting requirements sorted out > early? > > IMHO, the biggest problem IT developers have in building a system is > recognising that people are an integral part of the system and that > requirements are not "gathered" they are > formulated/identified/agreed/prioritised/sorted and, most of all, > compromises are made, as the system is architected/designed. > -- Marghanita da Cruz Director, Ramin Communications Pty Ltd http://www.ramin.com.au ABN 28-089-713-084 Chair ACS Governance of ICT Committee http://www.acs.org.au/governance Telephone: 0414-869202 mailto:marghanita@ramin.com.au From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Wed May 18 13:02:46 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Wed May 18 15:40:00 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent Message-ID: <20050518030246.BCKU8920.swebmail00.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> Wrong number. I never said I didn't like patents. I've railed at junk patents and argued against software patents. Not the same thing. RC > > From: Deus Ex Machina > Date: 18/05/2005 11:00:14 > To: rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au > CC: Mail List LINK > Subject: Re: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent > > this shouldnt bother you, you dont like patents. > > Vic > > rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au [rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au] wrote: > > And following up ... the patent covers OFDM, it was filed by a group led by Dr David Skellern after many years of development (I interviewed him in the 1980s for Electronics News, he was already prominent in microwave technology). > > > > This technology was first commercialised in the Radiata spinoff, which was then acquired by Cisco. Cisco then shut down that operation last year - which I suppose makes life easier for the plaintiffs. > > > > Their complaint, boo-hoo, is that CSIRO is charging them too much for the royalties, oh dear. I seem to have mislaid my "sympathy for huge companies wanting to exclude the rest of the world from owning anything" gland, has anyone seen it around? > > > > The hypocricy is stunning; this is a group of the cheerleaders of junk patents trying to break a patent for real technology (the foundation of 802.11a). > > > > Richard Chirgwin > > > This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au From vicc at cia.com.au Wed May 18 15:54:49 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Deus Ex Machina) Date: Wed May 18 15:56:06 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050518030246.BCKU8920.swebmail00.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> References: <20050518030246.BCKU8920.swebmail00.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> Message-ID: <20050518055449.GA21896@cia.com.au> I honestly dont see a difference between a software patent and non software patents. both create property that potentially has value. but thats obviously just my view. Vic rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au [rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au] wrote: > Wrong number. I never said I didn't like patents. I've railed at junk patents and argued against software patents. Not the same thing. > > RC > > > > From: Deus Ex Machina > > Date: 18/05/2005 11:00:14 > > To: rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au > > CC: Mail List LINK > > Subject: Re: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent > > > > this shouldnt bother you, you dont like patents. > > > > Vic > > > > rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au [rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au] wrote: > > > And following up ... the patent covers OFDM, it was filed by a group led by Dr David Skellern after many years of development (I interviewed him in the 1980s for Electronics News, he was already prominent in microwave technology). > > > > > > This technology was first commercialised in the Radiata spinoff, which was then acquired by Cisco. Cisco then shut down that operation last year - which I suppose makes life easier for the plaintiffs. > > > > > > Their complaint, boo-hoo, is that CSIRO is charging them too much for the royalties, oh dear. I seem to have mislaid my "sympathy for huge companies wanting to exclude the rest of the world from owning anything" gland, has anyone seen it around? > > > > > > The hypocricy is stunning; this is a group of the cheerleaders of junk patents trying to break a patent for real technology (the foundation of 802.11a). > > > > > > Richard Chirgwin > > > > > > > This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au > > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link From conz at cyber.com.au Wed May 18 16:20:19 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Wed May 18 16:20:25 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050518055449.GA21896@cia.com.au> References: <20050518030246.BCKU8920.swebmail00.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <20050518055449.GA21896@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <20050518062019.GM19396@cyber.com.au> On Wed, May 18, 2005 at 03:54:49PM +1000, Deus Ex Machina wrote: > I honestly dont see a difference between a software patent and non > software patents. both create property that potentially has value. > but thats obviously just my view. Here's a tip. If you build a better mousetrap and patent it, what are the odds that somewhere, somehow, someone else will embed that moustrap in a building they design and build? Almost zero. With software, there is every chance that a process or algorithm can find its way into many codebases. Here's why. Software is _easy_ to write (note, I didn't say easy to get right.) Which is why it's possible to build Windows XP with 45+ million LOC. There's nothing as complex which exists in the mand-made physical realm, because the physical realm is _hard_ to get right. -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From rick at praxis.com.au Wed May 18 16:40:01 2005 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Wed May 18 16:42:35 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050518055449.GA21896@cia.com.au> References: <20050518030246.BCKU8920.swebmail00.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <20050518055449.GA21896@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <428AE341.2000607@praxis.com.au> Deus Ex Machina wrote: > I honestly dont see a difference between a software patent and non > software patents. both create property that potentially has value. > but thats obviously just my view. Please direct all trolls to unlink. We've all been subjected to this rant so many times already I think I'm gonna hurl. -rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services People who enjoy eating sausage and obey the law should not watch either being made. -- Otto von Bismarck From vicc at cia.com.au Wed May 18 17:05:30 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Deus Ex Machina) Date: Wed May 18 17:07:05 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050518062019.GM19396@cyber.com.au> References: <20050518030246.BCKU8920.swebmail00.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <20050518055449.GA21896@cia.com.au> <20050518062019.GM19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <20050518070530.GA24348@cia.com.au> Con Zymaris [conz@cyber.com.au] wrote: > On Wed, May 18, 2005 at 03:54:49PM +1000, Deus Ex Machina wrote: > > I honestly dont see a difference between a software patent and non > > software patents. both create property that potentially has value. > > but thats obviously just my view. > > Here's a tip. > > If you build a better mousetrap and patent it, what are the odds that > somewhere, somehow, someone else will embed that moustrap in a building > they design and build? Almost zero. > > With software, there is every chance that a process or algorithm can find > its way into many codebases. > > Here's why. > > Software is _easy_ to write (note, I didn't say easy to get right.) Which > is why it's possible to build Windows XP with 45+ million LOC. There's > nothing as complex which exists in the mand-made physical realm, because > the physical realm is _hard_ to get right. I dont see that as an issue. software has explosive diversity (for lack of a better word), if you are innovating the likelihood of running into a patent is extremely low. ill grant that its more likely if you are not being innovative. but so what. again thats just my view. http://www.patent.gov.uk/about/ippd/faq/softpat.htm "In the UK, patents have been granted for computer-implemented inventions for decades. This has not hindered the expansion of the Internet, the development of open source software, nor the continuing growth of the software industry. Moreover, almost all software may be protected by copyright" Vic From r.polanskis at uws.edu.au Wed May 18 17:51:39 2005 From: r.polanskis at uws.edu.au (r.polanskis@uws.edu.au) Date: Wed May 18 17:52:42 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050518070530.GA24348@cia.com.au> References: <20050518030246.BCKU8920.swebmail00.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <20050518055449.GA21896@cia.com.au> <20050518062019.GM19396@cyber.com.au> <20050518070530.GA24348@cia.com.au> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 May 2005, Deus Ex Machina wrote: > I dont see that as an issue. software has explosive diversity (for lack > of a better word), if you are innovating the likelihood of running into > a patent is extremely low. ill grant that its more likely if you are not > being innovative. but so what. again thats just my view. Except when someone patents the code libraries you used to create the innovation or even more so, the symbolic expressions of a particular arrangement of machine code - algorithms and so on. Or how about how symbolic code converted into machine language via the artifice of a dynamic linker? All these have apparently been patented and it is only a matter of time before the holder of the patent exercises their will and charges a royalty every time a program is executed or a text file is converted into an object file, linked and made executable. rachel -- Rachel Polanskis Systems Admin, University of Western Sydney ADD Werrington North Campus (+61 2) 9678 7291 "I have found the solution, Doctor. Knife them in the neck" - Leela, Dr Who "Who do you trust?" - John W Howard From vicc at cia.com.au Wed May 18 17:57:37 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Deus Ex Machina) Date: Wed May 18 17:58:49 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: References: <20050518030246.BCKU8920.swebmail00.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <20050518055449.GA21896@cia.com.au> <20050518062019.GM19396@cyber.com.au> <20050518070530.GA24348@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <20050518075737.GA22014@cia.com.au> r.polanskis@uws.edu.au [r.polanskis@uws.edu.au] wrote: > On Wed, 18 May 2005, Deus Ex Machina wrote: > > > I dont see that as an issue. software has explosive diversity (for lack > > of a better word), if you are innovating the likelihood of running into > > a patent is extremely low. ill grant that its more likely if you are not > > being innovative. but so what. again thats just my view. > > Except when someone patents the code libraries you used to create the > innovation or even more so, the symbolic expressions of a particular > arrangement of machine code - algorithms and so on. Or how about > how symbolic code converted into machine language via the artifice > of a dynamic linker? > > All these have apparently been patented so has the wheel. patent number? Vic From chris at sw.oz.au Wed May 18 18:04:53 2005 From: chris at sw.oz.au (Chris Maltby) Date: Wed May 18 18:24:20 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> References: <20050517234925.VQJT21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <20050518010014.GA27640@cia.com.au> <20050518013423.GX19396@cyber.com.au> <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <20050518080453.GM22968@aurema.com> On Wed, May 18, 2005 at 11:56:17AM +1000, Deus Ex Machina wrote: > I wouldnt know I dont own any patents nor develop software for > distribution. however it does seems counterintuitive to me that > patents restrict innovation if nothing because there are infinite > possible ideas and 300000 patents is not even a drop within a drop: Vic, You're trolling again. The problem with software patents is not the sparsity of the coverage of the idea space, but the issue of the all-to-frequent clashes. If I sit at home and write a cool new program I have no way of knowing if it infringes other people's patents. If I want to convert my intellectual effort into money, I have to spend huge amounts on lawyers fees to check the patent space, or just take the risk that if I do infringe (and that is very likely given the things that have been patented) is to hope that the patent holder never finds out. >From the other perspective, if I patent a real software invention, I have almost no way to tell if other people are infringing my patent, and, if I find someone who is, I will almost certainly be unable to afford to defend it. Either way, the lawyers are the only winners from my attempts to make innovative software. In fact, it is lawyers arguments which have been able to circumvent the apparently explicit prohibitions on software patents in many jurisdictions. The copyright law is a much better protection for software innovators, though that is not perfect either. The patent law is a way for large corporations to increase barriers to entry to smaller competitors - that is, it discourages innovation. The CSIRO patent is not a software patent. They will nevertheless be hard pressed to defend it against the financial muscle arrayed against them. Chris From brendansweb at optusnet.com.au Wed May 18 19:56:11 2005 From: brendansweb at optusnet.com.au (Brendan Scott) Date: Wed May 18 19:56:50 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> References: <20050517234925.VQJT21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <20050518010014.GA27640@cia.com.au> <20050518013423.GX19396@cyber.com.au> <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <428B113B.2020407@optusnet.com.au> Deus Ex Machina wrote: > I wouldnt know I dont own any patents nor develop software for > distribution. however it does seems counterintuitive to me that > patents restrict innovation if nothing because there are infinite > possible ideas and 300000 patents is not even a drop within a drop: > > http://weblog.ipcentral.info/archives/2005/05/prof_robert_mer.html > > "but the bottom line is that patents are associated with success > (particularly later-round venture capital financing) in the software > industry" Oh, so you don't agree with the findings of the Federal Trade Commission's 2003 report which arrived at two conclusions (and I quote): I. Although Most of the Patent System Works Well, Some Modifications Are Needed to Maintain A Proper Balance of Competition and Patent Law and Policy. II. Questionable Patents Are a Significant Competitive Concern and Can Harm Innovation. I can't say that surprises me. > from the quoted paper > http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=510103 Do they facilitate financing (the title of the paper) is a completely different question to whether or not they are good to the industry. The quote is, at best, irrelevant. Brendan From vicc at cia.com.au Wed May 18 20:00:32 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Deus Ex Machina) Date: Wed May 18 20:01:45 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050518080453.GM22968@aurema.com> References: <20050517234925.VQJT21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <20050518010014.GA27640@cia.com.au> <20050518013423.GX19396@cyber.com.au> <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> <20050518080453.GM22968@aurema.com> Message-ID: <20050518100032.GA1004@cia.com.au> Chris Maltby [chris@sw.oz.au] wrote: > On Wed, May 18, 2005 at 11:56:17AM +1000, Deus Ex Machina wrote: > > I wouldnt know I dont own any patents nor develop software for > > distribution. however it does seems counterintuitive to me that > > patents restrict innovation if nothing because there are infinite > > possible ideas and 300000 patents is not even a drop within a drop: > > Vic, > > You're trolling again. putting forth a differing position is not trolling. > The problem with software patents is not the sparsity of the coverage > of the idea space, but the issue of the all-to-frequent clashes. its counterintuitive to say the idea space is sparce yet there are many clashes regardless its irrelavent. clashes occur constantly with normal patents. thats no more an argument against normal patents then it is with software patents. > If I sit at home and write a cool new program I have no way of > knowing if it infringes other people's patents. If I want to convert > my intellectual effort into money, I have to spend huge amounts on > lawyers fees to check the patent space, or just take the risk that > if I do infringe (and that is very likely given the things that have > been patented) is to hope that the patent holder never finds out. not being adequately capitalised is not an argument against patents. its an argument against not being adequately capitalised. > From the other perspective, if I patent a real software invention, > I have almost no way to tell if other people are infringing my patent, > and, if I find someone who is, I will almost certainly be unable to > afford to defend it. > > Either way, the lawyers are the only winners from my attempts to make > innovative software. In fact, it is lawyers arguments which have been > able to circumvent the apparently explicit prohibitions on software > patents in many jurisdictions. > > The copyright law is a much better protection for software innovators, > though that is not perfect either. The patent law is a way for large > corporations to increase barriers to entry to smaller competitors - > that is, it discourages innovation. > > The CSIRO patent is not a software patent. They will nevertheless > be hard pressed to defend it against the financial muscle arrayed > against them. again thats business the CSIRO doesnt have to be in business. they have to weigh up the legal cost vs the resuming negotiations. look no one on this list has any facts that show that patents harm innovation. opinions are not going to change my mind. patents bring to life property, property is wealth. the greater types of property the greater the wealth in society. the greater the wealth in society the better off everyone is. the process of aquiring a patent is not exactly expensive. if you can get one reasonable size credit card you can afford a patent. open source proponents seem to believe wealth comes through not having property. thats fine. I have no interest in trying to change anyones mind anymore. we can agree to disagree. Vic From brendansweb at optusnet.com.au Wed May 18 21:03:46 2005 From: brendansweb at optusnet.com.au (Brendan Scott) Date: Wed May 18 21:03:55 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050518100032.GA1004@cia.com.au> References: <20050517234925.VQJT21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <20050518010014.GA27640@cia.com.au> <20050518013423.GX19396@cyber.com.au> <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> <20050518080453.GM22968@aurema.com> <20050518100032.GA1004@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <428B2112.9000804@optusnet.com.au> Deus Ex Machina wrote: > Chris Maltby [chris@sw.oz.au] wrote: > >>On Wed, May 18, 2005 at 11:56:17AM +1000, Deus Ex Machina wrote: [] > look no one on this list has any facts that show that patents harm > innovation. opinions are not going to change my mind. How delicious. My other post went out before this came in. Yes Vic, no one other than the US Federal Trade Commission thinks patents harm innovation. You haven't bought those cluepons yet I see. > patents bring to life property, property is wealth. the greater types > of property the greater the wealth in society. the greater the wealth > in society the better off everyone is. the process of aquiring a patent > is not exactly expensive. if you can get one reasonable size credit card > you can afford a patent. Where do you get your credit cards from? AIPO quotes about $1000 for filing fees + $6-8K for Patent Attorneys just to file the thing. It costs more to prosecute to grant, more again if it's subject to opposition. And that's just for Australia. Multiply by number of jurisdictions, many of which will be even more expensive. This indicates to me that your credit card provider has rather lax financial management standards. I suspect they will go bankrupt under bad debts. > open source proponents seem to believe wealth comes through not having > property. thats fine. I have no interest in trying to change anyones > mind anymore. we can agree to disagree. No, open source proponents believe wealth comes from removing subsidies and promoting competition, not by creating subsidies and removing competition. Brendan From vicc at cia.com.au Thu May 19 00:12:41 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Deus Ex Machina) Date: Thu May 19 00:14:56 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <428B2112.9000804@optusnet.com.au> References: <20050517234925.VQJT21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <20050518010014.GA27640@cia.com.au> <20050518013423.GX19396@cyber.com.au> <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> <20050518080453.GM22968@aurema.com> <20050518100032.GA1004@cia.com.au> <428B2112.9000804@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20050518141241.GA9024@cia.com.au> Brendan Scott [brendansweb@optusnet.com.au] wrote: > >patents bring to life property, property is wealth. the greater types > >of property the greater the wealth in society. the greater the wealth > >in society the better off everyone is. the process of aquiring a patent > >is not exactly expensive. if you can get one reasonable size credit card > >you can afford a patent. > > Where do you get your credit cards from? citibank. the platinum card will give you up to $100k limit. even a boring amex gold will give you $25k. anyone with a job virtually can get a $15k amex blue. you have to beat the amex blue salesdroids away with a stick in shopping centers. even if you cant get $10k you can still get multiple cards its been done before. I was reading about some famous business started with multiple credit cards, the name escapes me. >AIPO quotes about $1000 for > filing fees + $6-8K for Patent Attorneys just to file the thing. It costs > more to prosecute to grant, more again if it's subject to opposition. er ... thats peanuts. > >property. thats fine. I have no interest in trying to change anyones > >mind anymore. we can agree to disagree. > > No, open source proponents believe wealth comes from removing subsidies and > promoting competition, not by creating subsidies and removing competition. whatever. call me when you want help choosing what color porsches you are going to be buying with your barier removed competition induced wealth. Vic From vicc at cia.com.au Thu May 19 00:16:33 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Deus Ex Machina) Date: Thu May 19 00:17:54 2005 Subject: [LINK] big fat pizzas and the surveillance society In-Reply-To: <428AD433.2060504@ramin.com.au> References: <428AC436.AEFCF25C@iimetro.com.au> <428AD433.2060504@ramin.com.au> Message-ID: <20050518141633.GA26357@cia.com.au> http://www.aclu.org/pizza/ From stephen at melbpc.org.au Thu May 19 03:30:03 2005 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley) Date: Thu May 19 03:30:20 2005 Subject: [LINK] FCC requires 911 for VoIP In-Reply-To: <20050518013846.BAMV8920.swebmail00.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> References: <20050518013846.BAMV8920.swebmail00.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> Message-ID: <428B7B9B.1060809@melbpc.org.au> rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: >>> And eliminating PSTN may raise OH&S issues in an environment where >>> you have to be able to call emergency services numbers ... >> >> Why would you eliminate PSTN for 000? > > I would not; I made the remark in response to the original VoIP post which said "get rid of schools' PSTN lines and put in VoIP"... FCC set to require 911 service for Net phones Published: May 18, 2005, 5:06 AM By Reuters Net phone providers will soon have to offer full emergency 911 calling services under an order U.S. regulators are expected to adopt Thursday in response to incidents of customers having trouble getting help. Internet calls, which are based on technology known as voice over Internet Protocol, or VoIP, are sent over a high-speed Internet connection but they do not always provide 911 response centers with the caller's address and often they are routed to administrative lines. With pressure from state law enforcement agencies and Congress, the U.S. Federal Communications Commission plans to require VoIP companies to provide 911 services to customers within 120 days of its order being published, two officials familiar with the FCC plan said. In February, a husband and wife in Houston were shot and wounded by burglars while their daughter tried to call 911 on a Vonage line but reached a general recording. The daughter had to use a neighbor's phone to reach police. Privately held Vonage, the biggest U.S. VoIP provider with 640,000 subscribers, has been sued by two states that said the company failed to adequately notify customers about limitations of its 911 service. Vonage has denied the charges but recently moved to an opt-out system instead of opt-in for 911. -- Cheers all .. Stephen Loosley Melbourne, Australia From lannet at lannet.com.au Thu May 19 08:20:45 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Thu May 19 08:20:59 2005 Subject: [LINK] FCC requires 911 for VoIP In-Reply-To: <428B7B9B.1060809@melbpc.org.au> References: <20050518013846.BAMV8920.swebmail00.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <428B7B9B.1060809@melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <428BBFBD.3070909@lannet.com.au> One of the problems with phone systems, often experienced by hotels and similar where they have a lot of foreign visitors, is that in an emergency people often call their familiar emergency number, 000 in AU, 999 in UK, 911 in US, 112 from mobiles, and probably others I am not aware of. One advantage of Asterisk is that you can define the dial plan to respond to all of these, grab a PSTN or ISDN line even if they are all in use (someone gets cut off, but not if they are already making an emergency call), and make a local emergency call. With VoIP the problem is in identifying where the call originates so that the emergency call can be appropriately directed. Stephen Loosley wrote: > rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > >>>> And eliminating PSTN may raise OH&S issues in an environment where >>>> you have to be able to call emergency services numbers ... >>> >>> >>> Why would you eliminate PSTN for 000? >> >> >> I would not; I made the remark in response to the original VoIP post >> which said "get rid of schools' PSTN lines and put in VoIP"... > > > > FCC set to require 911 service for Net phones > Published: May 18, 2005, 5:06 AM By Reuters > > > > > Net phone providers will soon have to offer full emergency 911 calling > services under an order U.S. regulators are expected to adopt Thursday > in response to incidents of customers having trouble getting help. > > Internet calls, which are based on technology known as voice over > Internet Protocol, or VoIP, are sent over a high-speed Internet > connection but they do not always provide 911 response centers with > the caller's address and often they are routed to administrative lines. > > With pressure from state law enforcement agencies and Congress, the U.S. > Federal Communications Commission plans to require VoIP companies to > provide 911 services to customers within 120 days of its order being > published, two officials familiar with the FCC plan said. > > In February, a husband and wife in Houston were shot and wounded by > burglars while their daughter tried to call 911 on a Vonage line but > reached a general recording. The daughter had to use a neighbor's phone > to reach police. > > Privately held Vonage, the biggest U.S. VoIP provider with 640,000 > subscribers, has been sued by two states that said the company failed to > adequately notify customers about limitations of its 911 service. Vonage > has denied the charges but recently moved to an opt-out system instead > of opt-in for 911. > -- > > Cheers all .. > Stephen Loosley > Melbourne, Australia > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From cas at taz.net.au Thu May 19 10:08:16 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Thu May 19 10:06:26 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050518100032.GA1004@cia.com.au> References: <20050517234925.VQJT21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <20050518010014.GA27640@cia.com.au> <20050518013423.GX19396@cyber.com.au> <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> <20050518080453.GM22968@aurema.com> <20050518100032.GA1004@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <20050519000816.GB18150@taz.net.au> On Wed, May 18, 2005 at 08:00:32PM +1000, Deus Ex Machina wrote: > Chris Maltby [chris@sw.oz.au] wrote: > > The problem with software patents is not the sparsity of the coverage > > of the idea space, but the issue of the all-to-frequent clashes. > > its counterintuitive to say the idea space is sparce yet there are > many clashes no it's not. you just have to know what kind of patents are being issued - i.e. trivial, obvious, and in no way deserving of patent protection. > regardless its irrelavent. clashes occur constantly with normal > patents. thats no more an argument against normal patents then it is > with software patents. yes, it is when issued patents are both trivial and obvious. most software patents issued are the equivalent of patenting "a round device to facilitate movement" or even more basic "applying force by any means to move an object of any kind". > > If I sit at home and write a cool new program I have no way of > > knowing if it infringes other people's patents. If I want to convert > > my intellectual effort into money, I have to spend huge amounts on > > lawyers fees to check the patent space, or just take the risk that > > if I do infringe (and that is very likely given the things that have > > been patented) is to hope that the patent holder never finds out. > > not being adequately capitalised is not an argument against patents. > its an argument against not being adequately capitalised. this has nothing to do with being adequately capitalised. it's about being locked out of ANY possible development or research because ALL of the trivial, basic, and obvious ideas which underlie pretty much everything else ideas have been claimed (or are in the process of being claimed) as the exclusive private property of existing entrenched monopolies. it's as if someone claimed ownership of the word "The" and you weren't allowed to write any english sentence that used it without paying a royalty. worse, you can be hit with a retrospective royalty bill for a stealth patent either applied for or issued years ago, but not enforced until there's a large group of unwitting "infringers". this is another example of the REAL tragedy of the commons - lowlife vermin stealing public property and claiming it for themselves...and getting away with it because there's enough money in it for lobbying and kickbacks. > look no one on this list has any facts that show that patents harm > innovation. bullshit. the facts have been presented to you on numerous occasions. you just don't want to see them....or your ideological blinkers (i.e. the blind worship of property at all costs) wont let you see them. > opinions are not going to change my mind. *nothing* can change your mind, because it is closed. you wont see anything that contradicts your ideology. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From rick at praxis.com.au Thu May 19 10:27:00 2005 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Thu May 19 10:27:08 2005 Subject: [LINK] big fat pizzas and the surveillance society In-Reply-To: <20050518141633.GA26357@cia.com.au> References: <428AC436.AEFCF25C@iimetro.com.au> <428AD433.2060504@ramin.com.au> <20050518141633.GA26357@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <428BDD54.3030609@praxis.com.au> Deus Ex Machina wrote: > http://www.aclu.org/pizza/ Closer than we might think. Now, how does such legislation get passed? The Real ID system has just been passed in the USA, after a failed attempt (or attempts?). How? Those pushing for what one would think would be heinous legislation "piggyback" it along with a large block of legislation that is bound to be pushed through, often late at night. "The politics of REAL ID was almost surreal. It was voted down last fall, but was reintroduced and attached to legislation that funds military actions in Iraq. This was a "must-pass" piece of legislation, which means that there was no debate on REAL ID. No hearings, no debates in committees, no debates on the floor. Nothing. And it's now law." One might wonder how the Patriot and Home Security Acts were passed so quickly and without question. As a senator interviewed on F911 reported, they don't actually read these 1300-page tomes. They are simply lobbied into voting for the legislation with crow-bar politics. Thanks for posting the Pizza example, vicc. I am curious. Since you have in past expressed little or no concern that our privacy is being eroded, did you find the Pizza example of concern? An amusement and nothing more? cheeres rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services People who enjoy eating sausage and obey the law should not watch either being made. -- Otto von Bismarck From kauer at biplane.com.au Thu May 19 10:40:04 2005 From: kauer at biplane.com.au (Karl Auer) Date: Thu May 19 10:40:05 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050519000816.GB18150@taz.net.au> References: <20050517234925.VQJT21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <20050518010014.GA27640@cia.com.au> <20050518013423.GX19396@cyber.com.au> <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> <20050518080453.GM22968@aurema.com> <20050518100032.GA1004@cia.com.au> <20050519000816.GB18150@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <20050519024004.5afb9e53.kauer@biplane.com.au> On Thu, 19 May 2005 10:08:16 +1000, Craig Sanders wrote: > *nothing* can change your mind, because it is closed. you wont see > anything that contradicts your ideology. Careful, Craig. This is the pot calling the kettle black! We all have blinkers... though of various sizes... Regards, K. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au) +41-43-2660706 (h) http://www.biplane.com.au/~kauer/ +41- 1-6327531 (w) From vicc at cia.com.au Thu May 19 11:59:58 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Deus Ex Machina) Date: Thu May 19 12:08:00 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050519000816.GB18150@taz.net.au> References: <20050517234925.VQJT21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <20050518010014.GA27640@cia.com.au> <20050518013423.GX19396@cyber.com.au> <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> <20050518080453.GM22968@aurema.com> <20050518100032.GA1004@cia.com.au> <20050519000816.GB18150@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <20050519015958.GA1769@cia.com.au> Craig Sanders [cas@taz.net.au] wrote: > it's as if someone claimed ownership of the word "The" and you weren't > allowed to write any english sentence that used it without paying a > royalty. prior art. non-obviousness. etc etc. show me examples of enforcebale patents that are the equivalent of the word "The". Look ill even fund you a patent that is so world stopping if you can think of one. > > look no one on this list has any facts that show that patents harm > > innovation. > > bullshit. the facts have been presented to you on numerous occasions. > you just don't want to see them....or your ideological blinkers (i.e. > the blind worship of property at all costs) wont let you see them. as if. for example. distribution of links to blogs follows a power law distribution. you may argue over the precision of the shape of the distribution but you cant argue that its a good enough way of talking about it. and for all intents and purposes it has sufficient factualness to use as a basis for sound beliefs. self consistent logic and opinion is not an observable. > > opinions are not going to change my mind. > > *nothing* can change your mind, because it is closed. you wont see > anything that contradicts your ideology. not true. what you are asking me is to re-adopt stuff I have droped as naive, unsound and unworkable. you may not agree with my ideas but I can sum them up in a few simple sentences. - handing out fish is inferior to teaching people to fish and trade - freedom leads to inequality, this is a good thing. - suppressing inequality suppresses freedom. - pareto concentrations arise where there is plural bilateral freedom. - property rights is the best known way of delineating freedoms. - democratising property rights is the best known way of spreading prosperity. - digital domains are not immune to the above. - digital commons dont escape exhaustion. some of these ideas are clearly disturbing to some people. some are too cuting edge for others. you may not understand some of them or the implications. you may not agree with some of them. thats fine. Vic From cas at taz.net.au Thu May 19 13:29:51 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Thu May 19 13:27:57 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050519015958.GA1769@cia.com.au> References: <20050517234925.VQJT21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <20050518010014.GA27640@cia.com.au> <20050518013423.GX19396@cyber.com.au> <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> <20050518080453.GM22968@aurema.com> <20050518100032.GA1004@cia.com.au> <20050519000816.GB18150@taz.net.au> <20050519015958.GA1769@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <20050519032951.GD18150@taz.net.au> On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 11:59:58AM +1000, Deus Ex Machina wrote: > Craig Sanders [cas@taz.net.au] wrote: > > > it's as if someone claimed ownership of the word "The" and you weren't > > allowed to write any english sentence that used it without paying a > > royalty. > > prior art. non-obviousness. etc etc. prior art is ignored when issuing software patents. as is obviousness. current US patent office policy is to issue every patent applied for and let the courts sort out any problems. which means all you have to do is *claim* ownership of something and you get to monopolise it until someone rich enough to dispute your claim comes along....it takes millions of dollars to successfully challenge any patent, even an obviously bogus one. > show me examples of enforcebale patents that are the equivalent of > the word "The". > > Look ill even fund you a patent that is so world stopping if you can think > of one. here are several: 1. amazon's one-click patent. 2. Cadtrak's XOR Patent (4,197,590) Draw the cursor on a screen using XOR, allowing for simple removal again. 3. Pangea Intellectual Properties (PANIP LLC) owns US Patent No 5,576,951 - if you use graphical and textual information on a video screen for purposes of making a sale, then you are infringing on their patent (i.e. all websites that sell anything. and all TV advertisements with both graphics & text). 4. PANIP also own US Patent No. 6,289,319. if you accept information to conduct automatic financial transactions via a telephone line & video screen, you're infringing on their patent. 5. Apple's patent on the trashcan icon. 6. Kodak's patent on an icon of a pair of scissors trimming a picture. 7. AOL's patent on instant messaging services (US Patent No 6449344) most of these examples taken from: 1. http://www.ccp14.ac.uk/maths/software-patents/software_patent_links.html 2. http://www.base.com/software-patents/examples.html 3. http://pcbuyersguide.com/editorials/Editorial-Patent_insanity.html also worth reading: http://lpf.ai.mit.edu/ http://lpf.ai.mit.edu/Patents/anatomy-trivial-patent.txt http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com/ > [ remaining gibberish deleted ] the rest of your reply isn't worth responding to. it made no sense, and didn't seem in any way relevant (WTF has the distribution of links to blogs got to do with this software patents?) craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From cas at taz.net.au Thu May 19 13:31:54 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Thu May 19 13:29:58 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050519024004.5afb9e53.kauer@biplane.com.au> References: <20050517234925.VQJT21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <20050518010014.GA27640@cia.com.au> <20050518013423.GX19396@cyber.com.au> <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> <20050518080453.GM22968@aurema.com> <20050518100032.GA1004@cia.com.au> <20050519000816.GB18150@taz.net.au> <20050519024004.5afb9e53.kauer@biplane.com.au> Message-ID: <20050519033154.GE18150@taz.net.au> On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 02:40:04AM +0200, Karl Auer wrote: > On Thu, 19 May 2005 10:08:16 +1000, Craig Sanders wrote: > > *nothing* can change your mind, because it is closed. you wont see > > anything that contradicts your ideology. > > Careful, Craig. This is the pot calling the kettle black! you have proof of this assertion? if not, then keep your slander to yourself. > We all have blinkers... though of various sizes... but not everyone has a closed mind. i have obvious biases but that does not mean that i am completely blind to contradictory evidence. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From marghanita at ramin.com.au Thu May 19 14:08:38 2005 From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz) Date: Thu May 19 14:06:45 2005 Subject: [LINK] Is there a point to these arguments? In-Reply-To: <20050519033154.GE18150@taz.net.au> References: <20050517234925.VQJT21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <20050518010014.GA27640@cia.com.au> <20050518013423.GX19396@cyber.com.au> <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> <20050518080453.GM22968@aurema.com> <20050518100032.GA1004@cia.com.au> <20050519000816.GB18150@taz.net.au> <20050519024004.5afb9e53.kauer@biplane.com.au> <20050519033154.GE18150@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <428C1146.2020508@ramin.com.au> A retired economist recently shared her observation that arguments do not change people's views. >>>*nothing* can change your mind, because it is closed. you wont see >>>anything that contradicts your ideology. So, I guess we should jut work on the threats and insults. Mrghanita -- Marghanita da Cruz Director, Ramin Communications Pty Ltd http://www.ramin.com.au ABN 28-089-713-084 Chair ACS Governance of ICT Committee http://www.acs.org.au/governance Telephone: 0414-869202 mailto:marghanita@ramin.com.au From vicc at cia.com.au Thu May 19 14:16:03 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Deus Ex Machina) Date: Thu May 19 14:17:16 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050519032951.GD18150@taz.net.au> References: <20050517234925.VQJT21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <20050518010014.GA27640@cia.com.au> <20050518013423.GX19396@cyber.com.au> <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> <20050518080453.GM22968@aurema.com> <20050518100032.GA1004@cia.com.au> <20050519000816.GB18150@taz.net.au> <20050519015958.GA1769@cia.com.au> <20050519032951.GD18150@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> Craig Sanders [cas@taz.net.au] wrote: > > the rest of your reply isn't worth responding to. it made no sense, and > didn't seem in any way relevant (WTF has the distribution of links to > blogs got to do with this software patents?) nothing until you are prepared to open your mind. Vic From conz at cyber.com.au Thu May 19 14:28:35 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Thu May 19 14:28:41 2005 Subject: [LINK] Is there a point to these arguments? In-Reply-To: <428C1146.2020508@ramin.com.au> References: <20050517234925.VQJT21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <20050518010014.GA27640@cia.com.au> <20050518013423.GX19396@cyber.com.au> <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> <20050518080453.GM22968@aurema.com> <20050518100032.GA1004@cia.com.au> <20050519000816.GB18150@taz.net.au> <20050519024004.5afb9e53.kauer@biplane.com.au> <20050519033154.GE18150@taz.net.au> <428C1146.2020508@ramin.com.au> Message-ID: <20050519042835.GW19396@cyber.com.au> On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 02:08:38PM +1000, Marghanita da Cruz wrote: > A retired economist recently shared her observation that arguments do > not change people's views. I think you're right. However, they do enumerate and elucidate opposing viewpoints, which can be of edificational benefit to onlookers. As long as arguments occur in good faith and at a non-screaming level. -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From cas at taz.net.au Thu May 19 15:55:10 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Thu May 19 15:53:05 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> References: <20050517234925.VQJT21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <20050518010014.GA27640@cia.com.au> <20050518013423.GX19396@cyber.com.au> <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> <20050518080453.GM22968@aurema.com> <20050518100032.GA1004@cia.com.au> <20050519000816.GB18150@taz.net.au> <20050519015958.GA1769@cia.com.au> <20050519032951.GD18150@taz.net.au> <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 02:16:03PM +1000, Deus Ex Machina wrote: > Craig Sanders [cas@taz.net.au] wrote: > > > > the rest of your reply isn't worth responding to. it made no sense, and > > didn't seem in any way relevant (WTF has the distribution of links to > > blogs got to do with this software patents?) > > nothing until you are prepared to open your mind. i think about 400ug of LSD should do to open my mind far enough to make sense of that last bit of gibberish. that ought to be enough to see connections between any two completely unrelated things. actually, a deleriant like ketamine or datura would probably be more appropriate. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From chris at sw.oz.au Thu May 19 15:54:28 2005 From: chris at sw.oz.au (Chris Maltby) Date: Thu May 19 16:04:46 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050518100032.GA1004@cia.com.au> References: <20050517234925.VQJT21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <20050518010014.GA27640@cia.com.au> <20050518013423.GX19396@cyber.com.au> <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> <20050518080453.GM22968@aurema.com> <20050518100032.GA1004@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <20050519055428.GY22968@aurema.com> On Wed, May 18, 2005 at 08:00:32PM +1000, Deus Ex Machina wrote: > look no one on this list has any facts that show that patents harm > innovation. opinions are not going to change my mind. Vicc, What sort of "facts" would you like? If you reject the opinions of people who actually have experience in this field you may as well go back to banging the rocks together... but wait, you already have. > patents bring to life property, property is wealth. the greater types > of property the greater the wealth in society. the greater the wealth > in society the better off everyone is. the process of aquiring a patent > is not exactly expensive. if you can get one reasonable size credit card > you can afford a patent. "Property"? Patents bring monopolies to life, and monopolies create rent for their owners. Monopolies distort the real wealth creating effects of unfettered commerce and are only justified if it can be demonstrated that the innovation would not occur without them. It's clear that software innovation can and will occur without software patents - it did so during the 20-30 years during which the US patent office refused to patent software "inventions". Now computer software is already protected by copyright monopolies, which prevent others from stealing the results of the authors work. Adding patent monopolies which take away the freedom of others to create new works is clearly unjustified. It's a restraint of trade. But of course, monopolies are always strongly defended by the people who profit from them at the expense of others. Look at Telstra. > open source proponents seem to believe wealth comes through not having > property. thats fine. Nonsense. Wealth is created by endeavour and trade, not by the extortion of monopoly rents. Monopolies decrease wealth overall, and concentrate what remains in fewer hands. > I have no interest in trying to change anyones mind anymore. Hooray. > We can agree to disagree. You can agree to whatever you fancy. Chris From link at todd.inoz.com Thu May 19 16:08:50 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Thu May 19 16:16:07 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> References: <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050517234925.VQJT21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <20050518010014.GA27640@cia.com.au> <20050518013423.GX19396@cyber.com.au> <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> <20050518080453.GM22968@aurema.com> <20050518100032.GA1004@cia.com.au> <20050519000816.GB18150@taz.net.au> <20050519015958.GA1769@cia.com.au> <20050519032951.GD18150@taz.net.au> <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050519160811.02c99ca0@wheresmymailserver.com> At 15:55 19/05/2005 +1000, Craig Sanders wrote: >On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 02:16:03PM +1000, Deus Ex Machina wrote: > > Craig Sanders [cas@taz.net.au] wrote: > > > > > > the rest of your reply isn't worth responding to. it made no sense, and > > > didn't seem in any way relevant (WTF has the distribution of links to > > > blogs got to do with this software patents?) > > > > nothing until you are prepared to open your mind. > >i think about 400ug of LSD should do to open my mind far enough to make >sense of that last bit of gibberish. that ought to be enough to see >connections between any two completely unrelated things. > >actually, a deleriant like ketamine or datura would probably be more >appropriate. > >craig Shame one has to take drugs and to recommend the taking of drugs to understand one's point of view. Obviously it's not a realistic point of view. But then, I won't get personal. From jbirch at multinode.com.au Thu May 19 16:21:00 2005 From: jbirch at multinode.com.au (Jim Birch) Date: Thu May 19 16:20:30 2005 Subject: [LINK] Is there a point to these arguments? In-Reply-To: <20050519042835.GW19396@cyber.com.au> References: <20050517234925.VQJT21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <20050518010014.GA27640@cia.com.au> <20050518013423.GX19396@cyber.com.au> <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> <20050518080453.GM22968@aurema.com> <20050518100032.GA1004@cia.com.au> <20050519000816.GB18150@taz.net.au> <20050519024004.5afb9e53.kauer@biplane.com.au> <20050519033154.GE18150@taz.net.au> <428C1146.2020508@ramin.com.au> <20050519042835.GW19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <428C304C.6030805@multinode.com.au> Con Zymaris wrote: >On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 02:08:38PM +1000, Marghanita da Cruz wrote: > > >>A retired economist recently shared her observation that arguments do >>not change people's views. >> >> > >I think you're right. > >However, they do enumerate and elucidate opposing viewpoints, which can be >of edificational benefit to onlookers. As long as arguments occur in good >faith and at a non-screaming level. > > People do change their opinions after leaving the argument situation sometimes but it depends. I've noticed "rational" people adopting an opposite position after day or two to calm down, but not budging a nm during the argument. (Sad really. Sadder: I guess I've done it too.) Very important for progress is to avoid creating a loss of face situation as this will really entrench things. As always, it always works well if you help them to think they thought it up themselves. -- Jim Birch jbirch@multinode.com.au t: 04 1243 1243 ----- It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit. -- Harry Truman From vicc at cia.com.au Thu May 19 16:51:36 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Deus Ex Machina) Date: Thu May 19 16:52:55 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050519055428.GY22968@aurema.com> References: <20050517234925.VQJT21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <20050518010014.GA27640@cia.com.au> <20050518013423.GX19396@cyber.com.au> <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> <20050518080453.GM22968@aurema.com> <20050518100032.GA1004@cia.com.au> <20050519055428.GY22968@aurema.com> Message-ID: <20050519065136.GB5203@cia.com.au> Chris Maltby [chris@sw.oz.au] wrote: > Vicc, > > What sort of "facts" would you like? If you reject the opinions of > people who actually have experience in this field you may as well > go back to banging the rocks together... but wait, you already have. I dont know but it may not be obvious to you but you are a minority. the experts that I read dont agree with you. I have read both sides I can make up my own mind based on my own observations. lessig, stallman, mogden and others are socialist and anarchist dinosaurs. > > patents bring to life property, property is wealth. the greater types > > of property the greater the wealth in society. the greater the wealth > > in society the better off everyone is. the process of aquiring a patent > > is not exactly expensive. if you can get one reasonable size credit card > > you can afford a patent. > > "Property"? Patents bring monopolies to life, and monopolies create > rent for their owners. Monopolies distort the real wealth creating > effects of unfettered commerce and are only justified if it can be > demonstrated that the innovation would not occur without them. dont agree. property rights and price are the most efficient way to allocate consumption of scarce resources. digital domains are not decoupled from the physical domain and thus are not exempt from this rule. > > open source proponents seem to believe wealth comes through not having > > property. thats fine. > > Nonsense. Wealth is created by endeavour and trade, not by the extortion > of monopoly rents. Monopolies decrease wealth overall, and concentrate > what remains in fewer hands. concentration happens with or without monopolies, with or without money. with or without greed. with or without good intentions. with or without conspiracies. etc etc. if you understood the mechanism behind pareto concentration you wouldnt blame patents or any property rights, for anything other then creating wealth. capitalism works best when it is backed by rule of law. that includes strong property rights that clarify ownership, physical and virtual. Vic From vicc at cia.com.au Thu May 19 16:23:25 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Deus Ex Machina) Date: Thu May 19 16:53:01 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> References: <20050518010014.GA27640@cia.com.au> <20050518013423.GX19396@cyber.com.au> <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> <20050518080453.GM22968@aurema.com> <20050518100032.GA1004@cia.com.au> <20050519000816.GB18150@taz.net.au> <20050519015958.GA1769@cia.com.au> <20050519032951.GD18150@taz.net.au> <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> Craig Sanders [cas@taz.net.au] wrote: > On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 02:16:03PM +1000, Deus Ex Machina wrote: > > Craig Sanders [cas@taz.net.au] wrote: > > > > > > the rest of your reply isn't worth responding to. it made no sense, and > > > didn't seem in any way relevant (WTF has the distribution of links to > > > blogs got to do with this software patents?) > > > > nothing until you are prepared to open your mind. > > i think about 400ug of LSD should do to open my mind far enough to make > sense of that last bit of gibberish. that ought to be enough to see > connections between any two completely unrelated things. > > actually, a deleriant like ketamine or datura would probably be more > appropriate. I am big picture person obviously the big picture is not your cup of tea. nor do I need drugs to see connections that escape mere mortals. :) its really not that hard. its really only a couple of steps between blog distributions and the value of patents. if you actually bothered to make the slightest bit of effort to undestand what I write rather then use it as an opportunity to launch into your own assault on anything that isnt anarchism, you might find it fits into a bigger picture. you want to get back to patents? craig: patents are evil me: no. they are not craig: here are some dodgy patents me: yes they are dodgy. the patent office needs work craig: we should scrap patents me: no. we should get the patent office to enforce prior-art and non-obviousness restrictions better. craig: patents prevent wealth creation me: no. patents like all property are a store of wealth let us know when you finish day tripping. Vic From chris at sw.oz.au Thu May 19 17:27:27 2005 From: chris at sw.oz.au (Chris Maltby) Date: Thu May 19 17:36:53 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> References: <20050518013423.GX19396@cyber.com.au> <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> <20050518080453.GM22968@aurema.com> <20050518100032.GA1004@cia.com.au> <20050519000816.GB18150@taz.net.au> <20050519015958.GA1769@cia.com.au> <20050519032951.GD18150@taz.net.au> <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <20050519072727.GD22968@aurema.com> On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 04:23:25PM +1000, Deus Ex Machina wrote: > you want to get back to patents? > > craig: patents are evil > me: no. they are not > craig: here are some dodgy patents > me: yes they are dodgy. the patent office needs work > craig: we should scrap patents > me: no. we should get the patent office to enforce prior-art and > non-obviousness restrictions better. Who shall pay for this regulation of patents then, now that we have agreed that the existing poor regulation is a serious problem. Also, where shall the Patent office find the expertise to determine if the claims made by applicants are genuine? Craig's solution has the advantage that it is feasible to fund and implement. Genuine innovation remains protected by copyright which requires little technical expertise nor expense to validate. > craig: patents prevent wealth creation > me: no. patents like all property are a store of wealth for lawyers. From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Thu May 19 18:17:12 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Thu May 19 18:16:50 2005 Subject: [LINK] FCC requires 911 for VoIP In-Reply-To: <428BBFBD.3070909@lannet.com.au> References: <20050518013846.BAMV8920.swebmail00.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <428B7B9B.1060809@melbpc.org.au> <428BBFBD.3070909@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <428C4B88.8010602@ozemail.com.au> Howard Lowndes wrote: > One of the problems with phone systems, often experienced by hotels > and similar where they have a lot of foreign visitors, is that in an > emergency people often call their familiar emergency number, 000 in > AU, 999 in UK, 911 in US, 112 from mobiles, and probably others I am > not aware of. It's been in the news recently, as it happens, with a debate about the excess of 911s in American TV...it's been mostly ABC radio in the mornings, which is why I don't bother posting a link. > One advantage of Asterisk is that you can define the dial plan to > respond to all of these, grab a PSTN or ISDN line even if they are all > in use (someone gets cut off, but not if they are already making an > emergency call), and make a local emergency call. That's not specific to Asterisk. The ability to grab-and-override exists in PABXs. It's just that the hotels (for eg) don't switch it on... > With VoIP the problem is in identifying where the call originates so > that the emergency call can be appropriately directed. Yes ... well, that and a simple refusal to make the attempt. The operators consider it easier to put "no 000" in the customer contracts (which many of them advertise don't exist anyway) than to implement a 000 service. One of the reasons that some VoIP is more expensive is that the operators with a carrier license have to do the work to implement 000. You can flag the incoming call as "location unknown" - it's done with mobiles. To a degree, the VoIP operators are indulging in creative distraction... RC > Stephen Loosley wrote: > >> rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: >> >>>>> And eliminating PSTN may raise OH&S issues in an environment where >>>>> you have to be able to call emergency services numbers ... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Why would you eliminate PSTN for 000? >>> >>> >>> >>> I would not; I made the remark in response to the original VoIP post >>> which said "get rid of schools' PSTN lines and put in VoIP"... >> >> >> >> >> FCC set to require 911 service for Net phones >> Published: May 18, 2005, 5:06 AM By Reuters >> >> >> >> >> Net phone providers will soon have to offer full emergency 911 calling >> services under an order U.S. regulators are expected to adopt Thursday >> in response to incidents of customers having trouble getting help. >> >> Internet calls, which are based on technology known as voice over >> Internet Protocol, or VoIP, are sent over a high-speed Internet >> connection but they do not always provide 911 response centers with >> the caller's address and often they are routed to administrative lines. >> >> With pressure from state law enforcement agencies and Congress, the U.S. >> Federal Communications Commission plans to require VoIP companies to >> provide 911 services to customers within 120 days of its order being >> published, two officials familiar with the FCC plan said. >> >> In February, a husband and wife in Houston were shot and wounded by >> burglars while their daughter tried to call 911 on a Vonage line but >> reached a general recording. The daughter had to use a neighbor's phone >> to reach police. >> >> Privately held Vonage, the biggest U.S. VoIP provider with 640,000 >> subscribers, has been sued by two states that said the company failed to >> adequately notify customers about limitations of its 911 service. Vonage >> has denied the charges but recently moved to an opt-out system instead >> of opt-in for 911. >> -- >> >> Cheers all .. >> Stephen Loosley >> Melbourne, Australia >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Link mailing list >> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link >> > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Link mailing list >Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > > From tal at pacific.net.au Thu May 19 18:32:55 2005 From: tal at pacific.net.au (tal) Date: Thu May 19 18:35:18 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050519032951.GD18150@taz.net.au> References: <20050517234925.VQJT21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <20050518010014.GA27640@cia.com.au> <20050518013423.GX19396@cyber.com.au> <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> <20050518080453.GM22968@aurema.com> <20050518100032.GA1004@cia.com.au> <20050519000816.GB18150@taz.net.au> <20050519015958.GA1769@cia.com.au> <20050519032951.GD18150@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <1116491575.5798.11.camel@canetoad> On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 13:29, Craig Sanders wrote: > most of these examples taken from: > > 1. http://www.ccp14.ac.uk/maths/software-patents/software_patent_links.html > > 2. http://www.base.com/software-patents/examples.html > > 3. http://pcbuyersguide.com/editorials/Editorial-Patent_insanity.html > > > also worth reading: > > http://lpf.ai.mit.edu/ > http://lpf.ai.mit.edu/Patents/anatomy-trivial-patent.txt > http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com/ for those interested, i recommend the news letter from http://ns1.patenting-art.com/ written by a patent attorney that specialises in busting bad patents. Tim Lister South Sydney Greens (02)9557 4050 timlister@webspinning.org http://ssg.nsw.greens.org.au "Think Globally, Act Locally" From cas at taz.net.au Thu May 19 19:09:35 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Thu May 19 19:07:45 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> References: <20050518013423.GX19396@cyber.com.au> <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> <20050518080453.GM22968@aurema.com> <20050518100032.GA1004@cia.com.au> <20050519000816.GB18150@taz.net.au> <20050519015958.GA1769@cia.com.au> <20050519032951.GD18150@taz.net.au> <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <20050519090935.GG18150@taz.net.au> On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 04:23:25PM +1000, Deus Ex Machina wrote: > craig: patents are evil > me: no. they are not actually, what you said was more like: no. they are not. all patents are perfect. i dare you to show me even one that isn't. > craig: here are some dodgy patents > [ 7 examples provided plus links to web pages detailing several more ] > me: yes they are dodgy. the patent office needs work actually, you then *completely* ignored the 7 examples i gave you and changed the subject (by concentrating on my dismissal of and rhetorical question about your bizarre rant on blog link distributions). you did not acknowledge or comment on the examples at all. it's easier to just ignore embarassing facts that contradict your ideology, isn't it? > craig: patents prevent wealth creation > me: no. patents like all property are a store of wealth actually, i've never said that patents prevent wealth creation (although it is obvious that they do). that's because i don't care whether patents create wealth or not. as far as i am concerned, wealth creation is the LEAST of the issues when it comes to patents. it is not a significant issue. patents are only justified *IF* they encourage innovation, *IF* the net benefit to the public is worth the price of a short-term monopoly. software patents do not encourage innovation, they stifle it. they are not any kind of a benefit to society, they are a complete loss. BTW, my position on patents isn't at all radical or even unusual. it's extremely conservative. it is precisely the rationale for patents given in all enabling legislation around the world. the main trouble with patents (and similar anti-free-market devices like copyrights(*)) is that some people, including you, are easily fooled into thinking that they are a natural right rather than a granted priviledge. if it wasn't for that misguided belief, they wouldn't be anywhere near as dangerous or as destructive to society. craig (*) but not trademarks - trademarks are different. they are primarily an anti-deception device rather than anti-free-market/monopoly device. at least, for the most part. they are also abused, but nowhere near as much or as frequently as patents and copyrights. -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From link at todd.inoz.com Thu May 19 19:58:12 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Thu May 19 21:01:06 2005 Subject: [LINK] Is there a point to these arguments? In-Reply-To: <428C304C.6030805@multinode.com.au> References: <20050519042835.GW19396@cyber.com.au> <20050517234925.VQJT21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <20050518010014.GA27640@cia.com.au> <20050518013423.GX19396@cyber.com.au> <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> <20050518080453.GM22968@aurema.com> <20050518100032.GA1004@cia.com.au> <20050519000816.GB18150@taz.net.au> <20050519024004.5afb9e53.kauer@biplane.com.au> <20050519033154.GE18150@taz.net.au> <428C1146.2020508@ramin.com.au> <20050519042835.GW19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050519195406.0382b210@pop> >>I think you're right. >> >>However, they do enumerate and elucidate opposing viewpoints, which can be >>of edificational benefit to onlookers. As long as arguments occur in good >>faith and at a non-screaming level. >> >People do change their opinions after leaving the argument situation >sometimes but it depends. I've noticed "rational" people adopting an >opposite position after day or two to calm down, but not budging a nm >during the argument. (Sad really. Sadder: I guess I've done it too.) What's sadder is people who plaint a proceeding in a Tribunal, give evidence of their belief of the circumstances and Loose, do not appeal. Then commence a similar proceeding in the District Court, present the same arguments at first, wait for a grounds of defence, change their arguments without leave, then find themselves up against a Notice of Motion to Dismiss, so ... Find themselves in the Tribunal this time as a respondent, and affirm the original decision, then File in the Supreme Court, with nearly the opposite grounds to that of those they presented in the two Tribunal matters and in conflict with the evidence they have presented in the District Court. Now how is that fair on the poor Defendants? Sorry, I digress :) But it's all about opinions and in ICT, opinion on what is hot and what is not, on Mac V IBM or Intel V Motorola, or Windows V OSX or Who owns what patent - is all the same :) >Very important for progress is to avoid creating a loss of face situation >as this will really entrench things. There are times when this is just not possible! >As always, it always works well if you help them to think they thought it >up themselves. Again, not always plausible. From vicc at cia.com.au Thu May 19 22:29:21 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Deus Ex Machina) Date: Thu May 19 22:30:37 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050519090935.GG18150@taz.net.au> References: <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> <20050518080453.GM22968@aurema.com> <20050518100032.GA1004@cia.com.au> <20050519000816.GB18150@taz.net.au> <20050519015958.GA1769@cia.com.au> <20050519032951.GD18150@taz.net.au> <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> <20050519090935.GG18150@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <20050519122921.GA4525@cia.com.au> Craig Sanders [cas@taz.net.au] wrote: > On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 04:23:25PM +1000, Deus Ex Machina wrote: > > craig: patents are evil > > me: no. they are not > > actually, what you said was more like: > > no. they are not. all patents are perfect. i dare you to show me even one > that isn't. no. I said none where world stoppers. > > craig: here are some dodgy patents > > [ 7 examples provided plus links to web pages detailing several more ] > > me: yes they are dodgy. the patent office needs work > > actually, you then *completely* ignored the 7 examples i gave you and > changed the subject (by concentrating on my dismissal of and rhetorical > question about your bizarre rant on blog link distributions). > > you did not acknowledge or comment on the examples at all. it's easier > to just ignore embarassing facts that contradict your ideology, isn't it? no. I am not going to waste everyones time over a red herring argument. it doesnt advance the position. I am pretty sure I said there where whole web sites dedicated to ridiculous patents at which point you went and found some. ok great you made my point. gif wasnt a show stopper patent. png arose. xor patent didnt stop cursors. one click doesnt stop 2 clicks. none of the examples are show stoppers. most of the examples have expired. do some people that abuse patents? of course. do some people abuse email? of course. > > craig: patents prevent wealth creation > > me: no. patents like all property are a store of wealth > > actually, i've never said that patents prevent wealth creation (although > it is obvious that they do). that's because i don't care whether patents > create wealth or not. as far as i am concerned, wealth creation is the > LEAST of the issues when it comes to patents. er.. >it is not a significant > issue. patents are only justified *IF* they encourage innovation, > *IF* the net benefit to the public is worth the price of a short-term > monopoly patents are not monopolies and the head of the USPTO has argued the same thing before the FTC. just because you hold a patent does not mean you have no competition. you can have fierce competition even with a patent. a patent is not a licence to avoid competition. its a licence to avoid free riding by immitators who cant innovate. read that again: its a licence to avoid free riding by immitators who cant innovate. is there some colateral damage? yes sometimes. thats life. patents are not licences to prevent innovation. nothing stops someone working around a patent via an unconsidered approach. happens all the time. its called innovation. patents force innovation by preventing wasted duplicate effort and free riding. they reward the owner with a right to attempt to capitalise on the value of the invention. and wait for it they convert the idea to something that would have been kept as secret as possible, to something that is effectively: open source! how good is that!?!?!? >software patents do not encourage innovation, they stifle it. > they are not any kind of a benefit to society, they are a complete loss. out and out false. > BTW, my position on patents isn't at all radical or even unusual. it's > extremely conservative. it is precisely the rationale for patents given > in all enabling legislation around the world. > > the main trouble with patents (and similar anti-free-market devices > like copyrights(*)) is that some people, including you, are easily > fooled into thinking that they are a natural right rather than a granted > priviledge. if it wasn't for that misguided belief, they wouldn't be > anywhere near as dangerous or as destructive to society. oh the irony. I spent a ridiculous amount of effort arguing that rights are not "natural" but are government granted on a libertarian mailing list. you disagree that patents create wealth. well you are wrong. wealth is measure of stored value. can patents generate cashflow? absolutely. therefore they can be valueable and as far as I care you can say they create wealth. does the value generated by patents outweigh the odd abuse? absolutely. I dont beleive for a second that you are putting up anything other then red herring arguments that cover up real underlying views. I support as many forms of property as possible because: property is wealth. the more types and quantity and democratisation of property there is the less poverty there is. removing one type of property removes a source of wealth which unwinds society back a step and increases poverty. just imagine how much wealth in society you would trash if you unwound land title. I would certainly be rioting. Vic From glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au Fri May 20 01:39:31 2005 From: glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au (Glen Turner) Date: Fri May 20 01:39:40 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <428AE341.2000607@praxis.com.au> References: <20050518030246.BCKU8920.swebmail00.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <20050518055449.GA21896@cia.com.au> <428AE341.2000607@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <428CB333.3050009@aarnet.edu.au> A modulation is essentially a mathematically mapping of a function in one domain (the signal we are trying to encode, time) to a function in another domain (frequency, power, time). So it's an interesting thought that in a slightly different set of rules for the Australian patent system (a system lacking the precedent about "physical effect") this patent would have been disallowed as mathematical functions can't be patented. From hartr at interweft.com.au Fri May 20 08:34:35 2005 From: hartr at interweft.com.au (Robert Hart) Date: Fri May 20 08:34:35 2005 Subject: [LINK] Software Piracy Message-ID: <428D147B.9090707@interweft.com.au> Hi This story is at http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20050518/tc_nf/35144 Software Piracy Will Get Worse, Study Says Elizabeth Millard, newsfactor.com As Internet use broadens, it is likely that software piracy also will expand, according to a study done by the Business Software Alliance (BSA) and research firm IDC. Currently, about one-third of software used is illegally made copies. But within five years, that number could boom to two-thirds, with the value of pirated software nearing US$200 billion. Worldwide revenue loss due to software piracy was estimated at $33 billion for 2004. I am truly amazed at this article:- 1) There is an implicit assumption here that every pirated copy results in the loss of a sale. As in the case of music downloads, that is simply not true. I have no idea what the actual relationship between pirated software and lost sales is, but I surmise it is very much less than 1:1 (as is the case in music downloads). Given that, according to this article, pirated software usage is climbing in developing nations but decreasing in developed ones, it would seem that pirating is driven significantly by the cost of the software and thus many pirated copies would never be actual sales. Whilst the BSA would like people to believe that the relationship between piracy and lost sales is 1:1 and that is always how they present their data, I expect better from industry analysts and journalists, but expect I will continue to be disappointed. 2) At no point that I am aware of has there ever been an investigation into the costs of compliance and anti-piracy measures. In many hidden ways, we pay for all the costs of compliance: from increased costs in the software itself (the BSA is funded by proprietary software houses) through the costs of prosecution of piracy cases to the costs that businesses and even we as individuals wear to try and ensure that all the software we use is 'legal'. My feeling is that these costs are far from insignificant. Furthermore, many of these costs are never included in the the TCO comparison between open source and proprietary software. -- Robert Hart hartr@interweft.com.au +61 (0)438 385 533 Brisbane, Australia http://www.hart.wattle.id.au From brendansweb at optusnet.com.au Fri May 20 11:20:10 2005 From: brendansweb at optusnet.com.au (Brendan Scott) Date: Fri May 20 11:20:00 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050519122921.GA4525@cia.com.au> References: <20050518015617.GA2902@cia.com.au> <20050518080453.GM22968@aurema.com> <20050518100032.GA1004@cia.com.au> <20050519000816.GB18150@taz.net.au> <20050519015958.GA1769@cia.com.au> <20050519032951.GD18150@taz.net.au> <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> <20050519090935.GG18150@taz.net.au> <20050519122921.GA4525@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <428D3B4A.9060109@optusnet.com.au> Deus Ex Machina wrote: > Craig Sanders [cas@taz.net.au] wrote: > >>On Thu, May 19, 2005 at 04:23:25PM +1000, Deus Ex Machina wrote: >> > > is there some colateral damage [ed: from patents]? yes sometimes. thats life. Quite. The problem is that you work from the position that the government can freely intervene in markets unless opponents of intervention can prove "world stopping" harm - an argument any socialist would be proud of. Governments should keep their noses out of markets and let markets get on with it. [Various assertions, magic tricks identifying monopolies with property deleted] From vicc at cia.com.au Fri May 20 11:55:55 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Deus Ex Machina) Date: Fri May 20 11:57:08 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <428D3B4A.9060109@optusnet.com.au> References: <20050518100032.GA1004@cia.com.au> <20050519000816.GB18150@taz.net.au> <20050519015958.GA1769@cia.com.au> <20050519032951.GD18150@taz.net.au> <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> <20050519090935.GG18150@taz.net.au> <20050519122921.GA4525@cia.com.au> <428D3B4A.9060109@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20050520015555.GA20451@cia.com.au> Brendan Scott [brendansweb@optusnet.com.au] wrote: > [Various assertions, magic tricks identifying monopolies with property > deleted] maybe we can redefine wealth as an absence of property rights? how silly of me. of course property is not wealth. thats why the rich have no property and the poor have lots of property. what could I have been thinking? I dont know how I could have gotten that wrong for so many years. NOT!! all property is some sort of monopoly. all companies aim to create some sort of monopoly, its called a niche. all companies create barriers to entry. I dont know why these things surprise or disturb you. if you are going to put forth some sort of argument you and craig and friends should stop reversing the meanings of words. classic australian tall poppyism: support everything that prevents anyone from getting ahead. its time australians learned to celebrate successes and stop trying to tear them down! especially the media. there is nothing more putrid then reading the indignation of journos writing about thorpe or cate buying some mansion in sydney. its a disgrace. its time australians grew up! are you journos out there reading this? Vic From conz at cyber.com.au Fri May 20 12:16:04 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Fri May 20 12:16:40 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050520015555.GA20451@cia.com.au> References: <20050519000816.GB18150@taz.net.au> <20050519015958.GA1769@cia.com.au> <20050519032951.GD18150@taz.net.au> <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> <20050519090935.GG18150@taz.net.au> <20050519122921.GA4525@cia.com.au> <428D3B4A.9060109@optusnet.com.au> <20050520015555.GA20451@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <20050520021604.GT19396@cyber.com.au> On Fri, May 20, 2005 at 11:55:55AM +1000, Deus Ex Machina wrote: > Brendan Scott [brendansweb@optusnet.com.au] wrote: > > [Various assertions, magic tricks identifying monopolies with property > > deleted] > > maybe we can redefine wealth as an absence of property rights? I have no issue with property rights. What I have issue is where _your_ property rights trump _my_ property rights, even when I've independently created the property in question. Therefore, copyright is fine, as long as it doesn't reach into the stratosphere in terms of duration. Non-physical idea patents are problematic however. I'm not sure why you're trying to obfuscate the topic of discussion with spurious economic-ese. -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From vicc at cia.com.au Fri May 20 12:26:00 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Deus Ex Machina) Date: Fri May 20 12:27:13 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050520021604.GT19396@cyber.com.au> References: <20050519015958.GA1769@cia.com.au> <20050519032951.GD18150@taz.net.au> <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> <20050519090935.GG18150@taz.net.au> <20050519122921.GA4525@cia.com.au> <428D3B4A.9060109@optusnet.com.au> <20050520015555.GA20451@cia.com.au> <20050520021604.GT19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <20050520022600.GA22053@cia.com.au> Con Zymaris [conz@cyber.com.au] wrote: > On Fri, May 20, 2005 at 11:55:55AM +1000, Deus Ex Machina wrote: > > Brendan Scott [brendansweb@optusnet.com.au] wrote: > > > [Various assertions, magic tricks identifying monopolies with property > > > deleted] > > > > maybe we can redefine wealth as an absence of property rights? > > I have no issue with property rights. you may not, some here clearly do. > What I have issue is where _your_ property rights trump _my_ property > rights, even when I've independently created the property in question. I dont see that as a big deal. you should have got there first. you now have no choice but to innovate. and you get to study the patent in detail, its open source! Vic From conz at cyber.com.au Fri May 20 13:04:08 2005 From: conz at cyber.com.au (Con Zymaris) Date: Fri May 20 13:04:12 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050520022600.GA22053@cia.com.au> References: <20050519032951.GD18150@taz.net.au> <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> <20050519090935.GG18150@taz.net.au> <20050519122921.GA4525@cia.com.au> <428D3B4A.9060109@optusnet.com.au> <20050520015555.GA20451@cia.com.au> <20050520021604.GT19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520022600.GA22053@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <20050520030408.GW19396@cyber.com.au> On Fri, May 20, 2005 at 12:26:00PM +1000, Deus Ex Machina wrote: > > What I have issue is where _your_ property rights trump _my_ property > > rights, even when I've independently created the property in question. > > I dont see that as a big deal. It _is_ a very big deal. That's the crux of the problem. The fact that you don't see that is a problem for you, not the rest of us. > > you should have got there first. you now have no choice but to innovate. > and you get to study the patent in detail, its open source! Open source means free and unencumbered access rights to use. So, _patently_, it's not 'open source'. -- ___________________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Level 4, 10 Queen St, Melbourne, Australia Cybersource: Australia's Leading Linux and Open Source Solutions Company Web: http://www.cyber.com.au/ Phone: 03 9621 2377 Fax: 03 9621 2477 From vicc at cia.com.au Fri May 20 14:11:16 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Deus Ex Machina) Date: Fri May 20 14:12:29 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050520030408.GW19396@cyber.com.au> References: <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> <20050519090935.GG18150@taz.net.au> <20050519122921.GA4525@cia.com.au> <428D3B4A.9060109@optusnet.com.au> <20050520015555.GA20451@cia.com.au> <20050520021604.GT19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520022600.GA22053@cia.com.au> <20050520030408.GW19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <20050520041116.GA13479@cia.com.au> Con Zymaris [conz@cyber.com.au] wrote: > On Fri, May 20, 2005 at 12:26:00PM +1000, Deus Ex Machina wrote: > > > What I have issue is where _your_ property rights trump _my_ property > > > rights, even when I've independently created the property in question. > > > > I dont see that as a big deal. > > It _is_ a very big deal. nah its not. its no more a big deal then your parents buying property at a fraction of the price you can because they got there first. so what. >That's the crux of the problem. The fact that you > don't see that is a problem for you, not the rest of us. its a just a side effect like privacy has the side effect that debt collection becomes difficult. c'est la vie. > > you should have got there first. you now have no choice but to innovate. > > and you get to study the patent in detail, its open source! > > Open source means free and unencumbered access rights to use. free as in speech not free as in beer. Vic From chris at sw.oz.au Fri May 20 14:28:46 2005 From: chris at sw.oz.au (Chris Maltby) Date: Fri May 20 14:38:54 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050520030408.GW19396@cyber.com.au> References: <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> <20050519090935.GG18150@taz.net.au> <20050519122921.GA4525@cia.com.au> <428D3B4A.9060109@optusnet.com.au> <20050520015555.GA20451@cia.com.au> <20050520021604.GT19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520022600.GA22053@cia.com.au> <20050520030408.GW19396@cyber.com.au> Message-ID: <20050520042846.GM22968@aurema.com> On Fri, May 20, 2005 at 01:04:08PM +1000, Con Zymaris wrote: > Open source means free and unencumbered access rights to use. > > So, _patently_, it's not 'open source'. Time to stop feeding the troll. From tal at pacific.net.au Fri May 20 16:31:23 2005 From: tal at pacific.net.au (tal) Date: Fri May 20 16:33:47 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <20050520042846.GM22968@aurema.com> References: <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> <20050519090935.GG18150@taz.net.au> <20050519122921.GA4525@cia.com.au> <428D3B4A.9060109@optusnet.com.au> <20050520015555.GA20451@cia.com.au> <20050520021604.GT19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520022600.GA22053@cia.com.au> <20050520030408.GW19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520042846.GM22968@aurema.com> Message-ID: <1116570683.5747.28.camel@canetoad> On Fri, 2005-05-20 at 14:28, Chris Maltby wrote: > On Fri, May 20, 2005 at 01:04:08PM +1000, Con Zymaris wrote: > > Open source means free and unencumbered access rights to use. > > > > So, _patently_, it's not 'open source'. > > Time to stop feeding the troll. i filtered him out a couple of weeks ago, it's very restful, i still see his inane remarks, but only with the cogent refutations attached. Tim Lister South Sydney Greens (02)9557 4050 timlister@webspinning.org http://ssg.nsw.greens.org.au "Think Globally, Act Locally" From stephen at melbpc.org.au Sat May 21 05:26:14 2005 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley) Date: Sat May 21 05:26:35 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <1116570683.5747.28.camel@canetoad> References: <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> <20050519090935.GG18150@taz.net.au> <20050519122921.GA4525@cia.com.au> <428D3B4A.9060109@optusnet.com.au> <20050520015555.GA20451@cia.com.au> <20050520021604.GT19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520022600.GA22053@cia.com.au> <20050520030408.GW19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520042846.GM22968@aurema.com> <1116570683.5747.28.camel@canetoad> Message-ID: <428E39D6.2060002@melbpc.org.au> Here's another item .. Garrett sounds quite optimistic .. Microsoft, Dell, HP, Intel, Apple, and Netgear, wish to nullify a patent held by the Australian government research body, the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization (CSIRO), that apparently covers all IEEE 802.11 wireless LAN equipment. "The patent is considered essential for implementing wireless local area networks that comply with several IEEE standards, and is now a standard feature of most notebook computers and many other devices," said a CSIRO release, in which the organization promises to defend itself. The CSIRO release does not specify which patent, but US patent 5,487,069, titled "Wireless LAN" and issued to CSIRO in 1996, is for a "peer-to-peer wireless LAN" that can operate in the kind of multipath environment created by radio echoes in typical office buildings. The CSIRO release says its patent allowed speed increases up to a factor of five over previous WLANs, and that CSIRO "offered licences on reasonable and nondiscriminatory terms to major suppliers as soon as they started selling devices which used the CSIRO technology". Buffalo Technology terminated negotiations, and CSIRO began legal action in the US against it in February 2005. The patent describes three ways to get high speed transmission despite the hostile conditions in an office: transmitting over a relatively large number of parallel sub-channels within the available bandwidth so that each channel has a low bit rate; transmitting data in small packets with forward error correction (FEC); and using interleaving. These concepts all feature in descriptions of the 802.11 physical layer. "As part of our business we create high-quality intellectual property, and we are prepared to defend it," said Garrett. We actively encourage the utilization of the results of research in industry and communities, both nationally and globally, and any royalty income will be reinvested in further research." -- From link at todd.inoz.com Sat May 21 10:20:23 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Sat May 21 10:24:54 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <428E39D6.2060002@melbpc.org.au> References: <1116570683.5747.28.camel@canetoad> <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> <20050519090935.GG18150@taz.net.au> <20050519122921.GA4525@cia.com.au> <428D3B4A.9060109@optusnet.com.au> <20050520015555.GA20451@cia.com.au> <20050520021604.GT19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520022600.GA22053@cia.com.au> <20050520030408.GW19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520042846.GM22968@aurema.com> <1116570683.5747.28.camel@canetoad> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050521101907.02e263f0@wheresmymailserver.com> At 05:26 21/05/2005 +1000, Stephen Loosley wrote: >Here's another item .. Garrett sounds quite optimistic .. > > > >Microsoft, Dell, HP, Intel, Apple, and Netgear, wish to nullify a patent >held by the Australian government research body, the Commonwealth >Scientific and Industrial Research Organization (CSIRO), that apparently >covers all IEEE 802.11 wireless LAN equipment. > >"The patent is considered essential for implementing wireless local area >networks that comply with several IEEE standards, and is now a standard >feature of most notebook computers and many other devices," said a CSIRO >release, in which the organization promises to defend itself. If their argument is that it's essential to squash the patent to be able to deploy a technology, then isn't it fair to say that it's essential to squash the patents in Microsoft products to ensure to deploy technology to users? In such case, why do we pay licence fees for Windows etal? Buy one copy and share it with your friends! A Patent is only as valuable as the objectors wish to make it! From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Sat May 21 09:50:50 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Sat May 21 10:40:39 2005 Subject: [LINK] spam and crime Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20050521094702.01ff7e68@popa.melbpc.org.au> Linkers might find this paper interesting. I just stumbled across it: http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi2/tandi294.html No. 294: Spam : nuisance or menace, prevention or cure? Rob McCusker ISBN 0 642 53875 1 ; ISSN 0817-8542 March 2005 * view paper (HTML) * PDF print version (PDF 186kB) Abstract Unfettered global communication through the internet has facilitated a massive intrusion of unsolicited commercial email messages, commonly known as spam. Currently accounting for as much as 65 per cent of all email, spam leads to productivity costs for businesses each year and is increasingly being used for the commission of crime. This paper discusses the increasing sophistication of the techniques used to obtain email addresses, and outlines and critiques a selection of legislation which aims to reduce or remove spam. It also examines a range of measures aimed at preventing spam from reaching its intended targets. It is argued that the mitigation of spam can only be achieved through a holistic approach taken by governments, law enforcement agencies, internet service providers, corporations and consumers. JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From anthony.hornby at cdu.edu.au Sat May 21 12:03:55 2005 From: anthony.hornby at cdu.edu.au (anthony hornby) Date: Sat May 21 12:04:01 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent In-Reply-To: <1116570683.5747.28.camel@canetoad> References: <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> <20050519090935.GG18150@taz.net.au> <20050519122921.GA4525@cia.com.au> <428D3B4A.9060109@optusnet.com.au> <20050520015555.GA20451@cia.com.au> <20050520021604.GT19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520022600.GA22053@cia.com.au> <20050520030408.GW19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520042846.GM22968@aurema.com> <1116570683.5747.28.camel@canetoad> Message-ID: <1116641035.9306.20.camel@bacchus.hornby.homedns.org> Yep, his original posts are straight off to /dev/null and I agree - link is now a much saner place - ahhhhhh ....... that's better ..... I can now enjoy the insightful discussion on this list again minus the random background static. Anthony. On Fri, 2005-05-20 at 16:31 +1000, tal wrote: > On Fri, 2005-05-20 at 14:28, Chris Maltby wrote: > > On Fri, May 20, 2005 at 01:04:08PM +1000, Con Zymaris wrote: > > > Open source means free and unencumbered access rights to use. > > > > > > So, _patently_, it's not 'open source'. > > > > Time to stop feeding the troll. > > i filtered him out a couple of weeks ago, it's very restful, i still see > his inane remarks, but only with the cogent refutations attached. > > Tim Lister > South Sydney Greens > (02)9557 4050 > timlister@webspinning.org > http://ssg.nsw.greens.org.au > "Think Globally, Act Locally" > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link -- Mr Anthony Hornby RHCE BIT ALIATEC Library Systems & Technology Coordinator Charles Darwin University | CRICOS 300K anthony.hornby@cdu.edu.au | office +61 8 89 466011 From anthony.hornby at cdu.edu.au Sat May 21 12:05:35 2005 From: anthony.hornby at cdu.edu.au (anthony hornby) Date: Sat May 21 12:05:40 2005 Subject: [LINK] Computer giants take aim at CSIRO patent Message-ID: <1116641135.9306.22.camel@bacchus.hornby.homedns.org> Yep, his original posts are straight off to /dev/null and I agree - link is now a much saner place - ahhhhhh ....... that's better ..... I can now enjoy the insightful discussion on this list again minus the random background static. Anthony. On Fri, 2005-05-20 at 16:31 +1000, tal wrote: > On Fri, 2005-05-20 at 14:28, Chris Maltby wrote: > > On Fri, May 20, 2005 at 01:04:08PM +1000, Con Zymaris wrote: > > > Open source means free and unencumbered access rights to use. > > > > > > So, _patently_, it's not 'open source'. > > > > Time to stop feeding the troll. > > i filtered him out a couple of weeks ago, it's very restful, i still see > his inane remarks, but only with the cogent refutations attached. > > Tim Lister > South Sydney Greens > (02)9557 4050 > timlister@webspinning.org > http://ssg.nsw.greens.org.au > "Think Globally, Act Locally" > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link -- Mr Anthony Hornby RHCE BIT ALIATEC Library Systems & Technology Coordinator Charles Darwin University | CRICOS 300K anthony.hornby@cdu.edu.au | office +61 8 89 466011 From sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au Sat May 21 13:41:12 2005 From: sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au (Steve Jenkin) Date: Sat May 21 13:41:44 2005 Subject: [LINK] Good 'House Rules' Message-ID: <1116646873.4986.67.camel@p4> http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/HouseRules Just came across these... They are the best article I've seen of this kind. [The BBC is good] Beats all other 'Netiquette' I've read - plus they've got a clear 'Transgressions' process written up as well. Link, in my eyes, is greatly devalued by the rubbish that is allowed 'over its airwaves'. The only two persons I've *ever* put in a 'kill file' are LINK posters. UNLINK is probably "A Good Idea", though I've never looked at what happens there [or aus.flames!] If there was a consensus process on LINK, I'd be requesting that we adopt some version of the H2G2 'House Rules'. regards steve -- Steve Jenkin, Unix Sys Admin 0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915) PO Box 48, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA mailto:sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au http://www.tip.net.au/~sjenkin From hartr at interweft.com.au Sun May 22 08:19:41 2005 From: hartr at interweft.com.au (Robert Hart) Date: Sun May 22 08:19:41 2005 Subject: [LINK] Time to stop feeding the troll In-Reply-To: <1116641035.9306.20.camel@bacchus.hornby.homedns.org> References: <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> <20050519090935.GG18150@taz.net.au> <20050519122921.GA4525@cia.com.au> <428D3B4A.9060109@optusnet.com.au> <20050520015555.GA20451@cia.com.au> <20050520021604.GT19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520022600.GA22053@cia.com.au> <20050520030408.GW19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520042846.GM22968@aurema.com> <1116570683.5747.28.camel@canetoad> <1116641035.9306.20.camel@bacchus.hornby.homedns.org> Message-ID: <428FB3FD.1010005@interweft.com.au> anthony hornby wrote: >Yep, >his original posts are straight off to /dev/null and I agree - link is >now a much saner place - ahhhhhh ....... that's better ..... > >I can now enjoy the insightful discussion on this list again minus the >random background static. > >Anthony. > >On Fri, 2005-05-20 at 16:31 +1000, tal wrote: > > >>On Fri, 2005-05-20 at 14:28, Chris Maltby wrote: >> >> >>>Time to stop feeding the troll. >>> >>> >>i filtered him out a couple of weeks ago, it's very restful, i still see >>his inane remarks, but only with the cogent refutations attached. >> >> I recently listed a particularly obnoxious member of another mailing list in my spamassassin black list. This is the first time that I've ever done this and I feel vaguely uneasy about it.I somehow feel that, by subscribing to a mailing list, I am under some sort of obligation to take the entire feed - and not be selective. Writing this down, I feel that this sounds rather silly, but none the less, I am still worried by the philosophical issue of curtailing a list member's 'rights' to be heard. What do others feel about this? -- Robert Hart hartr@interweft.com.au +61 (0)438 385 533 Brisbane, Australia http://www.hart.wattle.id.au From kauer at biplane.com.au Sun May 22 09:10:40 2005 From: kauer at biplane.com.au (Karl Auer) Date: Sun May 22 09:10:43 2005 Subject: [LINK] Time to stop feeding the troll In-Reply-To: <428FB3FD.1010005@interweft.com.au> References: <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> <20050519090935.GG18150@taz.net.au> <20050519122921.GA4525@cia.com.au> <428D3B4A.9060109@optusnet.com.au> <20050520015555.GA20451@cia.com.au> <20050520021604.GT19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520022600.GA22053@cia.com.au> <20050520030408.GW19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520042846.GM22968@aurema.com> <1116570683.5747.28.camel@canetoad> <1116641035.9306.20.camel@bacchus.hornby.homedns.org> <428FB3FD.1010005@interweft.com.au> Message-ID: <20050522011040.7c65e7d1.kauer@biplane.com.au> > worried by the philosophical issue of curtailing a list member's > 'rights' to be heard. > > What do others feel about this? One of the problems with choosing not to hear stuff you disagree with is that you end up hearing only stuff that reinforces your world view. This isn't conducive to retaining an open mind, and prevents you ever finding out that you are wrong[1]. Imagine the world view of someone who only ever reads one newspaper. On the other hand, it's your choice - noone is imposing this limitation on you. I'd be much more concerned if Tony banned someone[2]. In a list such as link, you'll get enough "bleed through" in referenced and quoted material to keep you in touch :-) Regards, K. [1] "I've never been wrong in my life. I thought I was once, but it turned out I was mistaken." [2] It would be interesting to run a list-side filter, so that any participant could ask the list to filter someone for them (just for that one participant, not for anyone else). Add in access to filter statistics, and you'd have a very interesting exercise in behavioural modification! Someone who realised that ever fewer people wanted to hear them could either leave the list of change his/her style. There would have to be some kind of automatic filter removal though - there would be no point in having permanent filters. Even a simple time limit would do - any filter imposed will be removed after (say) one month. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au) +41-43-2660706 (h) http://www.biplane.com.au/~kauer/ +41- 1-6327531 (w) From link at todd.inoz.com Sun May 22 09:27:09 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Sun May 22 09:31:36 2005 Subject: [LINK] Time to stop feeding the troll In-Reply-To: <428FB3FD.1010005@interweft.com.au> References: <1116641035.9306.20.camel@bacchus.hornby.homedns.org> <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> <20050519090935.GG18150@taz.net.au> <20050519122921.GA4525@cia.com.au> <428D3B4A.9060109@optusnet.com.au> <20050520015555.GA20451@cia.com.au> <20050520021604.GT19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520022600.GA22053@cia.com.au> <20050520030408.GW19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520042846.GM22968@aurema.com> <1116570683.5747.28.camel@canetoad> <1116641035.9306.20.camel@bacchus.hornby.homedns.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050522085207.03a5b5a8@wheresmymailserver.com> >>>>Time to stop feeding the troll. >>>i filtered him out a couple of weeks ago, it's very restful, i still see >>>his inane remarks, but only with the cogent refutations attached. >I recently listed a particularly obnoxious member of another mailing list >in my spamassassin black list. This is the first time that I've ever done >this and I feel vaguely uneasy about it.I somehow feel that, by >subscribing to a mailing list, I am under some sort of obligation to take >the entire feed - and not be selective. Robert, we haven't always seen eye to eye, and other times have been totally in sync. (Good opener huh!) I'd like to make some comments with the theme of censorship, library/archive management, and culture, and of course the very fact that we are telecommunicating, all at the same time. I can't say I've even blacklisted or blocked or filtered a person from a mail list thread. I may have once or twice stated this on the list - merely to discourage the person from continuing the thread on the basis that their comments won't be noticed, but I have strong archives of all mail lists (Bulletin boards, fidonet, Internet, etal) I've been on since 1986. Normally, in such situations, I have to admit, I am one of the co-conspirators of the debate, and normally I'm not the one making personal attacks. The very fact that I no longer appear in receipt of commentary, generally subsides the issues and the more intelligent and focused debaters tend to quickly follow suit and return to the focus issues. I am sure I've been filtered by a few people on Link over the years - that is there prerogative. It does mean that in threads I post, where content from me is quoted, the party rarely has any idea on the pretext of the thread, and that's their loss. We can't always agree and sometimes need to learn, as adult human beings, to disagree on some issues, and continue to live our lives. I find Link is exceptionally refreshing in that context. I do not support list subscribers filtering people from threads and postings. IT's best to merely indicate that you have, and those who have any understanding of the process (as both in this case do) will quickly ponder whether their views are being reviewed by list members or wasted in entirety. Most people of that level also know it's best to drop the thread or take it private. Personally, both the recent debaters have left me not really paying much attention to Link, with the exception of people (I agree with and don't) being the only names I seek to read and move along. Occasionally when a Linker emails me in private to draw my attention to a comment made by one of the debaters, I'll go and hunt the message down and have a giggle or groan. In general, however, I rarely read a thread once it deteriorates. Hence, I haven't really been following the content of the debate, but have noted it's out of character (to Link) continuance. Link is Archived by many subscribers and the volume of factual information, personal opinion, and even professional opinion has been incredible. Sometimes it differs, sometimes it's evolves and develops and other times it's a thing of the past and we all move on. No matter what world we're in (is that the right phrasing?) we are all telecommunicating. Many of us have never met each other and many of us have lived in the same cities or visited other subscriber cities without meeting. Pretty incredible when you think about it. To block or filter someone is the highest sign of censorship. To ban someone is equally high and to excommunicate a person is just as serious. I have excommunicated only a few people from my life, well deserved and evidently they agree. (None from Link though!) I strongly oppose people being banned from lists, even abusive people who are clearly not in line with the rules or attitudes of the list. One day, they might just add something of consequence that is valuable to the list members. It is their right to disagree with the context of a list or a thread, provided they do it without abusing individuals. In such situations, I have either undertaken, or requested moderation of the members postings. Strangely, I've ended up being the "personal moderator" in most situations. The process I take is usually to continue , off list, the thread with the person , explaining the reasons their comments can't be posted to the list and helping them write their views into a more appropriate form. Sometimes that is VERY difficult for me, as I may strongly oppose the persons's views. However, I often learn the intricacies of a persons thinking and the complexities of their views. I will NOT however debate the issues off list. I make that quite clear. I state that if they wish to debate the issues with me, I only have time to do so on the list with other pro and con responses and not in private. If they can re-write their view so it does not personally attack another's view, then it will be posted. After all, making a personal attack comes under two frames: 1. An attack in jest: Howard L, you're just way too Anti-Microsoft, there is good out there your Old Fart! or 2. An Attack without substance: Howard L, you are a total @$@$@ you know nothing man, nothing about anything or nothing for that matter. * Neither of the two above are my personal beliefs about Poor Old Howard. ** I don't belive Howard is Poor or Old either ;) I've had a few offlist debates with people from Link before - very refreshing and they don't usually last long - there is little point. I learn, they learn and we either agree to each others views or disagree and thank each other. I recently wonder whether some of the people posting "I have filtered a person" messages have filtered me too. But I won't waste me time pondering such thoughts. I feel it is there loss to not read my postings (or rants as a small few may call them! Ditto.) I do agree that in particular one of the thread writers has been described as obnoxious and is known to be such. I won't go into personal assessment, there is little point, we have all seen and felt the affects of the person and their inability to act, respond and behave appropriately and with common sense. I don't agree with much this person says at all. In fact I agree with very little. For that matter I tend not to agree with the other, but I have known of and read the other for more than ten years, and noticed the views changing as age moves on. I like to read opposing ideas or strongly put views, they help me develop. After all, isn't that what a library is about? Having a record or material of views and ideas, some good, some not? If we were to say all must be good in the world, then we have to re-write history even further. War in my opinion is NOT good. Yet we document it, make films about it, bring it into almost every household world wide with a TV set every day of the week. Is this good? No. For more reasons than is the scope of this posting! Sometimes Link goes a little offtopic. We do have a Moderator you know! Tony's pretty good. And in his observations, and by his own actions (or inactions) he's generally patient enough to allow a thread to die, or in a few occasions suggest it be moved to unlink. Strangely this didn't happen early in this thread and given the context was similar in views expressed by both previously a dozen times in other threads, I was rather puzzled. Perhaps some links have written to Tony asking that the thread continue? For what reason I can't tell - I haven't been Reading it! Just seeing the volume! Maybe one day I'll learn from it! The strongly POLITICAL and SOCIAL opposing views may well come to rest one day and change the way our entire society operates and functions. However I gravely feel that the views, which appear extreme to me and way off topic, would garner any change to society other than to build more antagonism between strongly adversarial factions. I have to admit, in part, and in part of the context, that my agreement and disagreement is in opposition to my personal opinions of the persons involved in the thread. Weird huh! Anyway, >Writing this down, > >I feel that this sounds rather silly, but none the less, I am still >worried by the philosophical issue of curtailing a list member's 'rights' >to be heard. > >What do others feel about this? I totally agree. Even though it appears a few others have done the same to me, but it is also their loss. Robert, you're a smart man, make a decision that suits you. Filter the people out into a temp file and then merge the temp file for archive purposes once a month, or year or whatever. Sometimes that filtered file is a good read :) From tal at pacific.net.au Sun May 22 09:31:39 2005 From: tal at pacific.net.au (tal) Date: Sun May 22 09:34:03 2005 Subject: [LINK] Time to stop feeding the troll In-Reply-To: <428FB3FD.1010005@interweft.com.au> References: <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> <20050519090935.GG18150@taz.net.au> <20050519122921.GA4525@cia.com.au> <428D3B4A.9060109@optusnet.com.au> <20050520015555.GA20451@cia.com.au> <20050520021604.GT19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520022600.GA22053@cia.com.au> <20050520030408.GW19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520042846.GM22968@aurema.com> <1116570683.5747.28.camel@canetoad> <1116641035.9306.20.camel@bacchus.hornby.homedns.org> <428FB3FD.1010005@interweft.com.au> Message-ID: <1116718299.5266.3.camel@canetoad> On Sun, 2005-05-22 at 08:19, Robert Hart wrote: > >> > I recently listed a particularly obnoxious member of another mailing > list in my spamassassin black list. This is the first time that I've > ever done this and I feel vaguely uneasy about it.I somehow feel that, > by subscribing to a mailing list, I am under some sort of obligation to > take the entire feed - and not be selective. Writing this down, > > I feel that this sounds rather silly, but none the less, I am still > worried by the philosophical issue of curtailing a list member's > 'rights' to be heard. > > What do others feel about this? 1) you do not have the right to curtail a list member's right to be heard by OTHER PEOPLE. 2) you are NOT OBLIGED to listen to the silly bastard yourself. Tim Lister South Sydney Greens (02)9557 4050 timlister@webspinning.org http://ssg.nsw.greens.org.au "Think Globally, Act Locally" From sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au Sun May 22 09:37:20 2005 From: sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au (Stephen Jenkin) Date: Sun May 22 09:37:28 2005 Subject: [LINK] Time to stop feeding the troll In-Reply-To: <428FB3FD.1010005@interweft.com.au> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 May 2005, Robert Hart wrote: > I am still worried by the philosophical issue of curtailing a list > member's 'rights' to be heard. > > What do others feel about this? I have limited time. I cannot afford to edit *and* carefully read verbose, off-topic waffle or rantings. Yes - there may be nuggets I miss, but for me the effort of discovery outweighs the time cost & cognitive burden. As the signal/noise ratio goes from Good to Poor, I: a) read all posts on a list; b) read some thread in a list; and c) unsubscribe from the list. I prefer moderated lists - at least there are some agreed minimium behavioural standards [and they will be enforced]. I also like summary lists where the owner selects & posts material in the conversations. My remarks on one of these lists have even gotten me published. > > > -- > Robert Hart hartr@interweft.com.au > +61 (0)438 385 533 > Brisbane, Australia http://www.hart.wattle.id.au > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > Steve Jenkin, Unix Sys Admin 0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915) PO Box 48, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au http://www.tip.net.au/~sjenkin From stil at stilgherrian.com Sun May 22 09:47:28 2005 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Sun May 22 09:47:35 2005 Subject: [LINK] Time to stop feeding the troll In-Reply-To: <428FB3FD.1010005@interweft.com.au> Message-ID: On 22/5/05 8:19 AM, "Robert Hart" wrote: > I recently listed a particularly obnoxious member of another mailing > list in my spamassassin black list. This is the first time that I've > ever done this and I feel vaguely uneasy about it. I somehow feel that, > by subscribing to a mailing list, I am under some sort of obligation to > take the entire feed - and not be selective. Writing this down, > I feel that this sounds rather silly, but none the less, I am still > worried by the philosophical issue of curtailing a list member's > 'rights' to be heard. > > What do others feel about this? Robert, you're exhibiting signs of simple decency by showing more concern for the "rights" of others than for your own mental well-being. Please stop immediately. Our minds are shaped by what we feed them. Every hour, every second of the day, we absorb sensory stimuli, sort them and rearrange them into a model of the world -- which we then use to shape and guide our own actions. There are many, many more sources of mental stimuli than we can possibly comprehend. Hundreds of radio and televisions channels when we can clearly only absorb one or two at a time. More magazines and books than we can possibly read. Every flat surface becomes advertising. And so we must select. Or choose not to select, and simply let our minds be filled with the thoughts of whoever's shouting the loudest and most often. But that choice is *yours* -- and I contend that it's one of the most important choices you make. If you care about someone's "right to be heard", then I'm guessing you also believe you have a moral responsibility to help make the world a better place -- whatever that might mean for you. And if that's the case, you have a moral responsibility to equip yourself for that task as best you can. So, consider the blocked poster's words in this light... Will his or her words provide you with a better understanding of the world? Or have you already determined that their arguments are flawed and unhelpful? Will his or her words amuse and entertain you, increasing your happiness and reducing your stress levels -- thereby allowing you to make calmer, more reflective and better choices? Or do they simply cause anger, frustration and stress? Will his or her words, compared with all the other words you could choose to read, be a positive contribution to your overall state of mind? Or is there another, better choice? If you know the answers these questions, then there's no moral problem with delegating the *implementation* of your choice to a machine. In fact, it's your moral *duty* to do so, so you can spend more of your valuable time making the tougher choices that only your superior human mind can make. ... Put in less high-sounding language, yes, people have a right to express their point of view. But if they're just being an argumentative, selfish prick who deliberately turns things into personal arguments, then just walk away. Stil -- Stilgherrian Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia. ABN 25 231 641 421 mobile 0407 623 600 (international +61 407 623 600) fax 02 9516 5630 (international +61 2 9516 5630) From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Sun May 22 10:06:59 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Sun May 22 10:07:11 2005 Subject: [LINK] Time to stop feeding the troll In-Reply-To: <20050522011040.7c65e7d1.kauer@biplane.com.au> References: <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> <20050519090935.GG18150@taz.net.au> <20050519122921.GA4525@cia.com.au> <428D3B4A.9060109@optusnet.com.au> <20050520015555.GA20451@cia.com.au> <20050520021604.GT19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520022600.GA22053@cia.com.au> <20050520030408.GW19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520042846.GM22968@aurema.com> <1116570683.5747.28.camel@canetoad> <1116641035.9306.20.camel@bacchus.hornby.homedns.org> <428FB3FD.1010005@interweft.com.au> <20050522011040.7c65e7d1.kauer@biplane.com.au> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20050522100505.01f983f0@popa.melbpc.org.au> At 09:10 AM 22/05/2005, Karl Auer wrote: >some kind of automatic filter removal though - there would be no point in >having permanent filters. Even a simple time limit would do - any filter >imposed will be removed after (say) one month. I agree generally about the free speech to say what you want, as long as the 'speaker' is respectful of the other people's ideas. Re the filter concept, I used to run an online conference system for college students. We set the norm as being kind and helpful, but of course you get the boundary pushers. We had a facility to do a 'time out' of sorts where the person who was playing outside the boundaries was set to read only for a while. gotta go Jan JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From bpa at iss.net.au Sun May 22 10:43:40 2005 From: bpa at iss.net.au (Brenda Aynsley) Date: Sun May 22 10:43:51 2005 Subject: [LINK] Time to stop feeding the troll In-Reply-To: <428FB3FD.1010005@interweft.com.au> References: <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> <20050519090935.GG18150@taz.net.au> <20050519122921.GA4525@cia.com.au> <428D3B4A.9060109@optusnet.com.au> <20050520015555.GA20451@cia.com.au> <20050520021604.GT19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520022600.GA22053@cia.com.au> <20050520030408.GW19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520042846.GM22968@aurema.com> <1116570683.5747.28.camel@canetoad> <1116641035.9306.20.camel@bacchus.hornby.homedns.org> <428FB3FD.1010005@interweft.com.au> Message-ID: <428FD5BC.2050607@iss.net.au> Robert Hart wrote: > > I feel that this sounds rather silly, but none the less, I am still > worried by the philosophical issue of curtailing a list member's > 'rights' to be heard. > > What do others feel about this? > > i think you'e right to be concerned robert. I choose to receive all emails to a list, good, bad or indifferent, but i also choose not to read according to a criterion list set in my mind. It may be by sender, or subject, or longevity of topic, etc. It takes very little time for me to mark 'all' messages read if they match one or more of the criteria. I can feel satisified (righteous? :-) that I have not prevented anyone from expressing themselves and I have had the choice each time to read or not to read the emails. I even keep them all so that should circumstances change, I can easily recant and read those that I have previously omitted from my must-read list. cheers brenda -- Brenda Aynsley, FACS Chairman ACS SA http://www.acs.org.au/ Mobile:+61(0) 412 662 988 || Skype: callto://baynsley Phone: +61(0) 8 8357 8844 Fax: +61(0) 8 8272 7486 Oz Business Partners http://www.ozbusinesspartners.com/ From lannet at lannet.com.au Sun May 22 12:21:49 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Sun May 22 12:23:19 2005 Subject: [LINK] Time to stop feeding the troll In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20050522085207.03a5b5a8@wheresmymailserver.com> References: <1116641035.9306.20.camel@bacchus.hornby.homedns.org> <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> <20050519090935.GG18150@taz.net.au> <20050519122921.GA4525@cia.com.au> <428D3B4A.9060109@optusnet.com.au> <20050520015555.GA20451@cia.com.au> <20050520021604.GT19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520022600.GA22053@cia.com.au> <20050520030408.GW19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520042846.GM22968@aurema.com> <1116570683.5747.28.camel@canetoad> <1116641035.9306.20.camel@bacchus.hornby.homedns.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20050522085207.03a5b5a8@wheresmymailserver.com> Message-ID: <428FECBD.5050402@lannet.com.au> Adam Todd wrote: > After all, making a personal attack comes under two frames: > > 1. An attack in jest: > Howard L, you're just way too Anti-Microsoft, there > is good out there your Old Fart! > > or > > 2. An Attack without substance: > Howard L, you are a total @$@$@ you know nothing man, nothing > about anything or nothing for that matter. How did I get involved in this :) > > * Neither of the two above are my personal beliefs about Poor Old Howard. > > ** I don't belive Howard is Poor or Old either ;) Sorry, Adam, wrong on both counts :) There are some subscribers who are trolls and enjoy being trolls. They have little consistency about their views and personally, I just ignore them. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From lannet at lannet.com.au Sun May 22 12:25:18 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Sun May 22 12:26:06 2005 Subject: [LINK] Time to stop feeding the troll In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20050522100505.01f983f0@popa.melbpc.org.au> References: <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> <20050519090935.GG18150@taz.net.au> <20050519122921.GA4525@cia.com.au> <428D3B4A.9060109@optusnet.com.au> <20050520015555.GA20451@cia.com.au> <20050520021604.GT19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520022600.GA22053@cia.com.au> <20050520030408.GW19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520042846.GM22968@aurema.com> <1116570683.5747.28.camel@canetoad> <1116641035.9306.20.camel@bacchus.hornby.homedns.org> <428FB3FD.1010005@interweft.com.au> <20050522011040.7c65e7d1.kauer@biplane.com.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050522100505.01f983f0@popa.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <428FED8E.9010006@lannet.com.au> Jan Whitaker wrote: > At 09:10 AM 22/05/2005, Karl Auer wrote: > >> some kind of automatic filter removal though - there would be no point >> in having permanent filters. Even a simple time limit would do - any >> filter imposed will be removed after (say) one month. > > > I agree generally about the free speech to say what you want, as long as > the 'speaker' is respectful of the other people's ideas. > > Re the filter concept, I used to run an online conference system for > college students. We set the norm as being kind and helpful, but of > course you get the boundary pushers. We had a facility to do a 'time > out' of sorts where the person who was playing outside the boundaries > was set to read only for a while. I manage (not moderate) an active aviation list and you get the flames on that. I told one character, off list, that he might just have the dubious privilege of being the first subscriber that I have ever kicked off any list. He quietened down. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Sun May 22 12:38:55 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Sun May 22 12:38:25 2005 Subject: [LINK] The right to speak In-Reply-To: <428FB3FD.1010005@interweft.com.au> References: <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> <20050519090935.GG18150@taz.net.au> <20050519122921.GA4525@cia.com.au> <428D3B4A.9060109@optusnet.com.au> <20050520015555.GA20451@cia.com.au> <20050520021604.GT19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520022600.GA22053@cia.com.au> <20050520030408.GW19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520042846.GM22968@aurema.com> <1116570683.5747.28.camel@canetoad> <1116641035.9306.20.camel@bacchus.hornby.homedns.org> <428FB3FD.1010005@interweft.com.au> Message-ID: <428FF0BF.3010405@ozemail.com.au> Robert, > I recently listed a particularly obnoxious member of another mailing > list in my spamassassin black list. This is the first time that I've > ever done this and I feel vaguely uneasy about it.I somehow feel that, > by subscribing to a mailing list, I am under some sort of obligation > to take the entire feed - and not be selective. Writing this down, > > I feel that this sounds rather silly, but none the less, I am still > worried by the philosophical issue of curtailing a list member's > 'rights' to be heard. > > What do others feel about this? Thanks, Robert. For about a decade, I've used various examples to try and convince young journalists that the active voice (Richard bit a dog) is preferable to the active voice (a dog was bitten by Richard). One of my points has been that the passive voice can, if misused, change meanings and lead to misunderstanding. The right to speak (active) is the right to do something. It expands freedom. The right to be heard (passive) is invented by the speaker, so that the audience imagines themselves somehow obliged to listen. This reduces freedom. It sounds similar to "the right to speak", but in fact is not. This will be henceforth my "active voice" example to new writers! RC > > From hartr at interweft.com.au Sun May 22 22:42:31 2005 From: hartr at interweft.com.au (Robert Hart) Date: Sun May 22 22:42:32 2005 Subject: [LINK] The right to speak In-Reply-To: <428FF0BF.3010405@ozemail.com.au> References: <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> <20050519090935.GG18150@taz.net.au> <20050519122921.GA4525@cia.com.au> <428D3B4A.9060109@optusnet.com.au> <20050520015555.GA20451@cia.com.au> <20050520021604.GT19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520022600.GA22053@cia.com.au> <20050520030408.GW19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520042846.GM22968@aurema.com> <1116570683.5747.28.camel@canetoad> <1116641035.9306.20.camel@bacchus.hornby.homedns.org> <428FB3FD.1010005@interweft.com.au> <428FF0BF.3010405@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <42907E37.6090309@interweft.com.au> rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > Thanks, Robert. For about a decade, I've used various examples to try > and convince young journalists that the active voice (Richard bit a > dog) is preferable to the active voice (a dog was bitten by Richard). > One of my points has been that the passive voice can, if misused, > change meanings and lead to misunderstanding. > > The right to speak (active) is the right to do something. It expands > freedom. > > The right to be heard (passive) is invented by the speaker, so that > the audience imagines themselves somehow obliged to listen. This > reduces freedom. It sounds similar to "the right to speak", but in > fact is not. > > This will be henceforth my "active voice" example to new writers! Happy to be of service! Now - how do we arrange royalty payments for your use of my IP? :-) -- Robert Hart hartr@interweft.com.au +61 (0)438 385 533 Brisbane, Australia http://www.hart.wattle.id.au From anthony.hornby at cdu.edu.au Sun May 22 23:40:11 2005 From: anthony.hornby at cdu.edu.au (anthony hornby) Date: Sun May 22 23:40:18 2005 Subject: [LINK] Library getting fingerprint scanners and fingerprinting patrons Message-ID: <1116769211.4086.11.camel@bacchus.hornby.homedns.org> To me this seems like a dangerous precedent. Original: http://news.yahoo.com/news? tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050521/ap_on_hi_te/library_fingerprints Nice short link to same: http://tinyurl.com/dxnjh Anthony -- Mr Anthony Hornby RHCE BIT ALIATEC Library Systems & Technology Coordinator Charles Darwin University | CRICOS 300K anthony.hornby@cdu.edu.au | office +61 8 89 466011 From anthony.hornby at cdu.edu.au Mon May 23 00:10:51 2005 From: anthony.hornby at cdu.edu.au (anthony hornby) Date: Mon May 23 00:10:58 2005 Subject: [LINK] Time to stop feeding the troll In-Reply-To: <428FB3FD.1010005@interweft.com.au> References: <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> <20050519090935.GG18150@taz.net.au> <20050519122921.GA4525@cia.com.au> <428D3B4A.9060109@optusnet.com.au> <20050520015555.GA20451@cia.com.au> <20050520021604.GT19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520022600.GA22053@cia.com.au> <20050520030408.GW19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520042846.GM22968@aurema.com> <1116570683.5747.28.camel@canetoad> <1116641035.9306.20.camel@bacchus.hornby.homedns.org> <428FB3FD.1010005@interweft.com.au> Message-ID: <1116771051.4086.39.camel@bacchus.hornby.homedns.org> Hi All, I'm basically filtering the list on very pragmatic grounds - I simply don't have the time to wade through all the vic versus everyone else threads which I am rarely interested in to get to the stuff I am. This saves me time and doesn't affect anyone else. Filtering information is what everyone does every day of their life on many levels. People filter information both consciously and unconsciously based on things such as cultural background, religion, politics, life experiences, who they know, what they do, what they like ... Some people are happy to get all the looongggg threads - thats fine too ... the debates are certainly lively and everyone has a right to have their say. An analogy that works for me might be that if I subscribe to a TV sports channel I might watch all the programs initially. I might get to know that many sports exist and something about how they are played and what the rules are. After a while I will have formed my opinions of which sports I like and which I don't, and when I decide one is not really for me I won't keep watching it so I can have more access to the others I do like. I get plenty of exposure to differing opinions, other cultures, other styles of thinking, living, being in my life outside of LINK ;-) There is life after mailing lists you know Regards Anthony. On Sun, 2005-05-22 at 08:19 +1000, Robert Hart wrote: > anthony hornby wrote: > > >Yep, > >his original posts are straight off to /dev/null and I agree - link is > >now a much saner place - ahhhhhh ....... that's better ..... > > > >I can now enjoy the insightful discussion on this list again minus the > >random background static. > > > >Anthony. > > > >On Fri, 2005-05-20 at 16:31 +1000, tal wrote: > > > > > >>On Fri, 2005-05-20 at 14:28, Chris Maltby wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Time to stop feeding the troll. > >>> > >>> > >>i filtered him out a couple of weeks ago, it's very restful, i still see > >>his inane remarks, but only with the cogent refutations attached. > >> > >> > I recently listed a particularly obnoxious member of another mailing > list in my spamassassin black list. This is the first time that I've > ever done this and I feel vaguely uneasy about it.I somehow feel that, > by subscribing to a mailing list, I am under some sort of obligation to > take the entire feed - and not be selective. Writing this down, > > I feel that this sounds rather silly, but none the less, I am still > worried by the philosophical issue of curtailing a list member's > 'rights' to be heard. > > What do others feel about this? > > -- Mr Anthony Hornby RHCE BIT ALIATEC Library Systems & Technology Coordinator Charles Darwin University | CRICOS 300K anthony.hornby@cdu.edu.au | office +61 8 89 466011 From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au Fri May 20 14:49:56 2005 From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington) Date: Mon May 23 10:28:54 2005 Subject: [LINK] Indian tablet computer may cure market ills Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050520144035.03842680@tomw.net.au> Tom Krazit wrote in "Motion pushes ahead with new Tablet PC design" (IDG News Service 19/05/2005 11:45:51) : >Motion Computing has unveiled its latest Tablet PC design, hoping to light >a fire under a PC category that has not lived up to early expectations. ... Another keyboardless Windows XP laptop will not cure the ills of the tablet computer market. Far more interesting is the Indian Mobilis Linux computer . This has the electronics and software from the Simputer PDA, but with a screen four times the size. As well as a tablet version, there is to be one with a small rubber keyboard (bit like a giant Blackberry phone) and a web terminal you plug into a standard VGA screen and USB keyboard . The original Simputer Linux PDA was intended as a low cost device for villages . But it never caught on; perhaps because it was too expensive for the intended market. I suspect it is because in styling terms the Simputer is to PDAs what the Ambassador is to cars . The Ambassador may be reasonably priced and very serviceable car, but who wants to be seen driving around in something that looks like a 1948 Morris Oxford? Putting a bigger screen on the Simputer could give it a new lease of life. The larger screen should not increase the price (around $500). It then goes from being an oversize PDA to a small cheap PC replacement. Of course there have been attempts at information appliances before and assorted Linux gadgets . There have also been many rubber keyed subnotebooks come and go (I used to own a Cambridge Computer Z88 ). The newer devices are a little more sophisticated, with color screens and the Dillo or Firefox web browsers. ps: Ruggedized versions of the Simputer appears to be sold to the Indian military . This may literally be the needed "killer application" and may also be useful field workers in disasters such as Tsunami . Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 http://www.tomw.net.au PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 Visiting Fellow, Computer Science, Australian National University From stephen at melbpc.org.au Mon May 23 10:45:21 2005 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley) Date: Mon May 23 10:45:44 2005 Subject: [LINK] Government Initiative Regarding Spyware Message-ID: <429127A0.40103@melbpc.org.au> Hi there, The Australian Government is initiating a public discussion on spyware. Bob notes, here are URLs to government websites and brief quotes from those sites in respect of this problem. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Spyware has emerged as a concern for the privacy and security of consumers and businesses in the online environment. Spyware is computer software that is secretly installed on a computer to take information, bandwidth and processing capacity for someone else?s benefit, without the knowledge or consent of the user. It can also be software that changes settings and interferes with the performance of a user?s computer. The Minister for Communications, Information Technology and the Arts, Senator Helen Coonan, has announced in a media release the release of a public discussion paper on spyware. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.dcita.gov.au/newsroom/media_releases/protecting_australians_online__spyware_review Protecting Australians Online - Spyware Review The Minister for Communications, Information Technology and the Arts, Senator Helen Coonan, today released a discussion paper on how government and industry might respond to the emergence of spyware as a threat to online security. "We want to hear from the Australian public so we can all have a common understanding of what spyware is and how it affects us," said Senator Coonan. "We will be holding public consultation workshops where interested parties can discuss the issues raised in the paper." ------------------------------------------------------ The Spyware Discussion Paper has been developed by the Department of Communications, Information Technology and the Arts (DCITA) in consultation with a range of stakeholders. It is available at www.dcita.gov.au/spyware, and DCITA invites the public to respond to the paper by 17 June 2005. ---------------------------------------------------------- Cheers all .. Stephen Loosley Melbourne, Australia From link at todd.inoz.com Mon May 23 12:10:53 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Mon May 23 12:17:03 2005 Subject: [LINK] Time to stop feeding the troll In-Reply-To: <1116771051.4086.39.camel@bacchus.hornby.homedns.org> References: <428FB3FD.1010005@interweft.com.au> <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> <20050519090935.GG18150@taz.net.au> <20050519122921.GA4525@cia.com.au> <428D3B4A.9060109@optusnet.com.au> <20050520015555.GA20451@cia.com.au> <20050520021604.GT19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520022600.GA22053@cia.com.au> <20050520030408.GW19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520042846.GM22968@aurema.com> <1116570683.5747.28.camel@canetoad> <1116641035.9306.20.camel@bacchus.hornby.homedns.org> <428FB3FD.1010005@interweft.com.au> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050523120404.03930a38@wheresmymailserver.com> You know this topic, since Robert put his nose into it, has really turned into quite an interesting subject and discussion. It's showing how people filter day to day information, whom they select and allied with, what methods are used to archive information for later retrieval or even delete it with no hindsight in view. It's also showing the one fundamental that has been prevalent on this list since day one (or two?) that all opinions, views and expressions are important to the overall topics discussed, expressed, put forward or debated. It also shows that the majority of people on LINK are busy and don't want to get into long intensive threads for long periods of time. It hasn't happened often. In general the topics of long threads according to my review sin 1996 (gosh that's ten years!) have been highly political and related to censorship (Brenda, Danny, Grrr!) or Freedoms. Isn't that just a LITTLE strange? And the list's primary focus was something about Library technologies and methods. The very process of archiving and ensuring that future generations have access to opinions and views, via not just hard copy methods. Anyway, enough rant ... >Some people are happy to get all the looongggg threads - thats fine >too ... the debates are certainly lively and everyone has a right to >have their say. I tend to do what has been mentioned already, read all, read less, ignore thread. But I keep the material on hand. I always look for people I know posting in volumous threads, to see what their views are, back track the thread to see what the debate is about, or read the initial thread posting and work forward if I have a sudden interest. If all those I normally tend to agree with have commented, I'll shut up (yeah you noticed that huh!) other times if I feel strongly enough that I want my voice to be noted, I'll pass a simple or verbose rant :) Sometimes, for the record, we need our view to be logged, you know "For the Record." >An analogy that works for me might be that if I subscribe to a TV sports >channel I might watch all the programs initially. I might get to know >that many sports exist and something about how they are played and what >the rules are. After a while I will have formed my opinions of which >sports I like and which I don't, and when I decide one is not really for >me I won't keep watching it so I can have more access to the others I do >like. See now this is where you and I differ. I'd NEVER subscribe to a sports channel. >I get plenty of exposure to differing opinions, other cultures, other >styles of thinking, living, being in my life outside of LINK ;-) > >There is life after mailing lists you know Oh mail lists are a small part of my life - IRC is the life I live! From link at todd.inoz.com Mon May 23 12:03:06 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Mon May 23 12:17:17 2005 Subject: [LINK] The right to speak In-Reply-To: <42907E37.6090309@interweft.com.au> References: <428FF0BF.3010405@ozemail.com.au> <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> <20050519090935.GG18150@taz.net.au> <20050519122921.GA4525@cia.com.au> <428D3B4A.9060109@optusnet.com.au> <20050520015555.GA20451@cia.com.au> <20050520021604.GT19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520022600.GA22053@cia.com.au> <20050520030408.GW19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520042846.GM22968@aurema.com> <1116570683.5747.28.camel@canetoad> <1116641035.9306.20.camel@bacchus.hornby.homedns.org> <428FB3FD.1010005@interweft.com.au> <428FF0BF.3010405@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050523120258.03ce3e98@wheresmymailserver.com> At 22:42 22/05/2005 +1000, Robert Hart wrote: >rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > >>Thanks, Robert. For about a decade, I've used various examples to try and >>convince young journalists that the active voice (Richard bit a dog) is >>preferable to the active voice (a dog was bitten by Richard). One of my >>points has been that the passive voice can, if misused, change meanings >>and lead to misunderstanding. >> >>The right to speak (active) is the right to do something. It expands freedom. >> >>The right to be heard (passive) is invented by the speaker, so that the >>audience imagines themselves somehow obliged to listen. This reduces >>freedom. It sounds similar to "the right to speak", but in fact is not. >> >>This will be henceforth my "active voice" example to new writers! > > >Happy to be of service! > >Now - how do we arrange royalty payments for your use of my IP? > :-) Got a patent? From link at todd.inoz.com Mon May 23 12:01:41 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Mon May 23 12:17:25 2005 Subject: [LINK] Time to stop feeding the troll In-Reply-To: <428FECBD.5050402@lannet.com.au> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20050522085207.03a5b5a8@wheresmymailserver.com> <1116641035.9306.20.camel@bacchus.hornby.homedns.org> <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> <20050519090935.GG18150@taz.net.au> <20050519122921.GA4525@cia.com.au> <428D3B4A.9060109@optusnet.com.au> <20050520015555.GA20451@cia.com.au> <20050520021604.GT19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520022600.GA22053@cia.com.au> <20050520030408.GW19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520042846.GM22968@aurema.com> <1116570683.5747.28.camel@canetoad> <1116641035.9306.20.camel@bacchus.hornby.homedns.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20050522085207.03a5b5a8@wheresmymailserver.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050523115857.03b18e78@wheresmymailserver.com> At 12:21 22/05/2005 +1000, Howard Lowndes wrote: >Adam Todd wrote: >>After all, making a personal attack comes under two frames: >>1. An attack in jest: >> Howard L, you're just way too Anti-Microsoft, there >> is good out there your Old Fart! >>or >>2. An Attack without substance: >> Howard L, you are a total @$@$@ you know nothing man, nothing >> about anything or nothing for that matter. > >How did I get involved in this :) Well I had to pick someone! As you are one of few of whom I read all postings, it was at the topic of my mind :) Brenda is another, although Brenda tends to be very repetitive in her postings about the same issues over and over. I think that means the issues aren't being resolved, or are being raised again. Bit like Jose Rowe and his watching of the If i my use the term politely "DNS registrars" in Australia. It becomes so repetitive, when I see his name, I already know what he's posting about! >>* Neither of the two above are my personal beliefs about Poor Old Howard. >>** I don't belive Howard is Poor or Old either ;) > >Sorry, Adam, wrong on both counts :) Hey! I ain't see your bank balance and I've not met you - yet! >There are some subscribers who are trolls and enjoy being trolls. They >have little consistency about their views and personally, I just ignore them. Yes, I do agree. There is a difference in a devils advocate and a stirrer. Sometimes I'm not sure which I am :) From link at todd.inoz.com Mon May 23 12:12:39 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Mon May 23 12:17:34 2005 Subject: [LINK] Government Initiative Regarding Spyware In-Reply-To: <429127A0.40103@melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050523121113.035bdc08@wheresmymailserver.com> >Spyware has emerged as a concern for the privacy and security of >consumers and businesses in the online environment. Spyware is >computer software that is secretly installed on a computer to take >information, bandwidth and processing capacity for someone else's >benefit, without the knowledge or consent of the user. It can also be >software that changes settings and interferes with the performance of >a user's computer. Does that include ASIO, DSD, Police etc?? I mean they seem to think they have a right to install Spyware on your computer to for their own benefit - I'd hardly say that's to my benefit, right? I certainly didn't agree to the installation of such items on my computer or network :) >The Minister for Communications, Information Technology and the Arts, >Senator Helen Coonan, has announced in a media release the release of >a public discussion paper on spyware. I'll bet a lot of spyware gets installed over the period of response! From anthony.hornby at cdu.edu.au Mon May 23 12:49:26 2005 From: anthony.hornby at cdu.edu.au (anthony hornby) Date: Mon May 23 12:49:34 2005 Subject: [LINK] Time to stop feeding the troll Message-ID: <1116816566.9834.23.camel@bacchus.hornby.homedns.org> Yep, I agree its interesting, people are all individuals with their own opinions. Hooray for mailing list archives http://mailman.anu.edu.au/pipermail/link/ If people want to also maintain their own independent archives that is fine too :) People will tend to maintain archives on the things that matter to them. Who decides what to archive and what not to archive generally - people do - and individually they choose what is 'important' based on their environment, culture, religious persuasion, life experiences etc etc etc .... in groups they choose broadly what the society they are part of considers important tempered with their own views and the views of those groups in society that they identify with. Lots Of Copies Keeps Stuff Safe As to sports TV - I don't subscribe - its the only analogy I could come up with late at night with minimal caffeine reserves to draw on. Anthony. On Mon, 2005-05-23 at 12:10 +1000, Adam Todd wrote: > You know this topic, since Robert put his nose into it, has really turned > into quite an interesting subject and discussion. It's showing how people > filter day to day information, whom they select and allied with, what > methods are used to archive information for later retrieval or even delete > it with no hindsight in view. > > It's also showing the one fundamental that has been prevalent on this list > since day one (or two?) that all opinions, views and expressions are > important to the overall topics discussed, expressed, put forward or debated. > > It also shows that the majority of people on LINK are busy and don't want > to get into long intensive threads for long periods of time. It hasn't > happened often. In general the topics of long threads according to my > review sin 1996 (gosh that's ten years!) have been highly political and > related to censorship (Brenda, Danny, Grrr!) or Freedoms. > > Isn't that just a LITTLE strange? > > And the list's primary focus was something about Library technologies and > methods. The very process of archiving and ensuring that future > generations have access to opinions and views, via not just hard copy methods. > > Anyway, enough rant ... > > >Some people are happy to get all the looongggg threads - thats fine > >too ... the debates are certainly lively and everyone has a right to > >have their say. > > I tend to do what has been mentioned already, read all, read less, ignore > thread. But I keep the material on hand. > > I always look for people I know posting in volumous threads, to see what > their views are, back track the thread to see what the debate is about, or > read the initial thread posting and work forward if I have a sudden interest. > > If all those I normally tend to agree with have commented, I'll shut up > (yeah you noticed that huh!) other times if I feel strongly enough that I > want my voice to be noted, I'll pass a simple or verbose rant > :) Sometimes, for the record, we need our view to be logged, you know "For > the Record." > > >An analogy that works for me might be that if I subscribe to a TV sports > >channel I might watch all the programs initially. I might get to know > >that many sports exist and something about how they are played and what > >the rules are. After a while I will have formed my opinions of which > >sports I like and which I don't, and when I decide one is not really for > >me I won't keep watching it so I can have more access to the others I do > >like. > > See now this is where you and I differ. I'd NEVER subscribe to a sports > channel. > > >I get plenty of exposure to differing opinions, other cultures, other > >styles of thinking, living, being in my life outside of LINK ;-) > > > >There is life after mailing lists you know > > Oh mail lists are a small part of my life - IRC is the life I live! > > -- Mr Anthony Hornby RHCE BIT ALIATEC Library Systems & Technology Coordinator Charles Darwin University | CRICOS 300K anthony.hornby@cdu.edu.au | office +61 8 89 466011 From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Mon May 23 15:19:33 2005 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Mon May 23 15:19:42 2005 Subject: [LINK] New rules to enable higher-rate broadband services Message-ID: <07ae22c71f8087e9e241ce25eddd60b9@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Media release No. 26 - 23 May 2005 New rules to enable higher-rate broadband services Industry will be able to deliver higher-rate broadband services through local telephone lines, in a state known as the unconditioned local loop (ULL), following registration today of an industry code and technical standard by the Australian Communications Authority (ACA). ?The new code and standard enable higher-rate digital subscriber line (DSL) based services. These allow faster Internet browsing and access to multimedia for applications such as streaming video and video conferencing,? Acting ACA Chairman Dr Bob Horton said. ?The new rules ensure that the integrity of the existing systems will be maintained and they minimise the risk of interference between systems,? Dr Horton said. Registration of the code and the standard makes them enforceable by the ACA. The new code, ACIF C559:2005 Unconditioned Local Loop Service (ULLS) Network Deployment Rules and the associated standard AS/ACIF S043.2:2005 ? Australian Standard Requirements for Customer Equipment for connection to a metallic local loop interface of a Telecommunications. Network ? Part 2: Broadband were developed by the Australian Communications Industry Forum (ACIF) and replace previously registered instruments. The code sets out performance requirements and deployment rules that network operators must follow when they operate systems on the ULLS. The standard complements the code by specifying the technical requirements for all customer equipment used with services supplied under the code. To give the new standard regulatory effect, the ACA will register an amendment to the Telecommunications Labelling (Customer Equipment and Customer Cabling) Notice 2001, which allows suppliers to label and supply customer equipment that complies with the standard. A new version of the ACIF technical standard Customer Access Equipment for connection to a Telecommunications Network?AS/ACIF S003:2005, that replaces a previous standard and introduces more contemporary terminology, was also registered today. Dr Horton said that higher rate DSL-based broadband services might not be possible on all telephone lines and consumers would need to check availability with their service provider. A copy of the code and the standards are available from the ACIF website. The Australian Communications Authority is a government regulator of telecommunications and radiocommunications For more information: All media enquires: Kevin Sutherland Paul Slocum Manager Communications Engineering Team Manager Communications Telephone: (03) 9963 6886 Telephone: (03) 9963 6966 Mobile: 0408 152 471 phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From Evan.ARTHUR at Dest.gov.au Mon May 23 16:08:00 2005 From: Evan.ARTHUR at Dest.gov.au (Evan.ARTHUR@Dest.gov.au) Date: Mon May 23 16:08:06 2005 Subject: [LINK] E-Research Activities Message-ID: <200505230608.j4N6804k013666@name-ext2.dewr.gov.au> Linkers may be interested in this announcement: http://www.minister.dcita.gov.au/media/media_releases/initiative_to_coor dinate_e-research More information is at http://www.dest.gov.au/sectors/research_sector/policies_issues_reviews/k ey_issues/e_research_consult/default.htm Evan Arthur Group Manager Innovation and Research Systems Group Department of Education, Science and Training Notice: The information contained in this e-mail message and any attached files may be confidential information, and may also be the subject of legal professional privilege. If you are not the intended recipient any use, disclosure or copying of this e-mail is unauthorised. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments. From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Mon May 23 17:25:18 2005 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Mon May 23 17:25:34 2005 Subject: [LINK] Time to stop feeding the troll In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20050522085207.03a5b5a8@wheresmymailserver.com> References: <1116641035.9306.20.camel@bacchus.hornby.homedns.org> <20050519041603.GA14248@cia.com.au> <20050519055509.GF18150@taz.net.au> <20050519062325.GA5203@cia.com.au> <20050519090935.GG18150@taz.net.au> <20050519122921.GA4525@cia.com.au> <428D3B4A.9060109@optusnet.com.au> <20050520015555.GA20451@cia.com.au> <20050520021604.GT19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520022600.GA22053@cia.com.au> <20050520030408.GW19396@cyber.com.au> <20050520042846.GM22968@aurema.com> <1116570683.5747.28.camel@canetoad> <1116641035.9306.20.camel@bacchus.hornby.homedns.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20050522085207.03a5b5a8@wheresmymailserver.com> Message-ID: On 22 May 2005, at 9:27 AM, Adam Todd wrote: > Strangely this didn't happen early in this thread and given the > context was similar in views expressed by both previously a dozen > times in other threads, I was rather puzzled. Perhaps some links have > written to Tony asking that the thread continue? Nope. I was just offline for a few days and when I saw the volume of the debate I didn't get round to reading it for a while. I suspected it was going to run out of puff. Tony phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Mon May 23 17:29:57 2005 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Mon May 23 17:30:06 2005 Subject: [LINK] Time to stop feeding the troll In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <591d3f9346b913aaf992a573dad6b67f@tony-barry.emu.id.au> On 22 May 2005, at 9:37 AM, Stephen Jenkin wrote: > I also like summary lists where the owner selects & posts material in > the > conversations. My remarks on one of these lists have even gotten me > published. > From time to time I have contemplated a "best of link" announcements list or rss feed but as I would be doing the selecting it might be idiosyncratic and would lag behind the live material often by days. Possible arguments about this deter me. The easist way to do it I thought would be to scan the archives on a regular basis so I could include the url of the posting. Tony phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Tue May 24 09:14:59 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Tue May 24 09:15:46 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: vip-l: Fwd: Target marketing via RFID to debut in Seattle Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20050524091411.01bfe560@popa.melbpc.org.au> I picked this up from a discussion list of vision impaired people. May be a good thing for this sector of the population, or a rationale so they can get their nose under the tent..... >>ComputerWorld.com >>Sunday, May 22, 2005 >> >>Target marketing via RFID to debut in Seattle >> >>By Johan Bostrom, IDG News Service >> >>SEATTLE, WA:-Some cafes and retail stores in Seattle next week will begin >>individually marketing products and services to bypassers in Seattle using >>RFID (radio frequency identification) technology. >> >>The first target group is visually and hearing-impaired individuals who can >>benefit from positioning and navigation applications added to the system. >> >>Six wireless public areas, called activation fields, will go live next week >>throughout downtown Seattle and at the city's ferry terminal. Over a few >>months 15 more city areas will be added. Users carrying an active tag and >>entering the activation field are recognized as the tag is read, and then >>are presented with announcements. >> >>"Speakers are mounted on the telephone booth or the facade of the store. So >>they will be above the individual's head when they pass underneath or >>nearby," said Harry H Hart. III, founder and chief executive officer of >>Seattle's Awarea, which owns and manages the system. >> >>Users of the personalized marketing system carry an active RFID tag roughly >>the size of a stack of four credit cards. When the tag comes within 100 feet >>of a transmitter sending low frequency signals at 126 kilohertz, the tag >>transmits a unique identification signal to a receiver connected to a >>monitoring and execution server. >> >>Depending on what information the system has filed on the individual >>carrying the tag, the server selects the correct file to output -- either an >>audio file in Wave-format for an announcement or a Quicktime file for sign >>language to be displayed on a video monitor. The first message could be the >>address and sale information from a nearby retailer. >> >>Customers needing more information can push a tell-me-more-button, explained >>Ben Donohue, vice president of business development for Axcess, which is >>providing the hardware and designing the system. >> >>Data about the customer can be mined and sold to the retailers, Donohue >>said. It can also be used to personalize marketing and map customer >>behavior. >> >>One hundred thirty active RFID tags have been in use at a test site with >>only one transmitter at Pioneer Square in Seattle for a year. Beginning June >>1, when more transmitters are activated in downtown Seattle constituting six >>tag activation zones, more tags will be sold and rented. >> >>Awarea plans to market the system at the National Federation of the Blind of >>Washington's legislative luncheon this weekend. >> >>Assistive technology could include safety and navigation information >>displayed on a personal digital assistant or a smart phone. The information >>could also be delivered in audio format the same way as it is today to >>speakers mounted in information zones or to a Braille reader. >> >>Other possible applications might be for tourists who might want guidance in >>the downtown Seattle area. >> >>www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;608893675;fp;16;fpid;0 > > >JLWhitaker Associates >Melbourne, Victoria, Australia >jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm > >'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there >is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 >_ __________________ _ From brd at iimetro.com.au Tue May 24 09:22:57 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Tue May 24 09:23:14 2005 Subject: [LINK] Apples bowl over uni's Linux desktops Message-ID: <429265D1.19B08936@iimetro.com.au> Apples bowl over uni's Linux desktops Rodney Gedda Computerworld 24/05/2005 09:09:49 http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;1302841680;fp;16;fpid;0 Hope of Linux tackling the desktop market has suffered a reality check with the University of Melbourne's Trinity College dumping the penguin in favour of Unix cousin Mac OS X, not x86-based rival, Windows. A lab of 20 PCs running Debian GNU/Linux will be replaced by G5 iMacs with the compelling reasons for the migration being a "slick user interface" and ease of use, according to Trinity College systems administrator Tim Bell. "Looking at the maturity of Debian as a desktop and it's not quite there, particularly compared with Mac OS X, which has come a long way," Bell said. "It has a good user experience and is reliable [so] Mac OS X wins. Debian is still a good platform and is maintainable with minimal updates compared with Windows." Bell said OS X supports all the required applications, including Microsoft Office. Under Linux we have been using OpenOffice which is great, but the interoperability is not quite there. "The labs are not just used by students, so we need to provide labs for people without the time to learn Linux," he said. "Macs are simple to use and Linux still has a few rough edges." Debian has been the Linux distribution of choice at the college since it started with Linux in 2000, and remains attractive to students. In 2003, a second Linux lab with another 20 PCs was opened and this one will remain. Bell is not sure why and puts it down to an education decision. "Students doing computing go on to study commerce or economics [and] what's attractive to them is a wider experience in computing than just Windows," he said. "Linux is quite a buzzword in the financial industry, so we can attract more students. The college likes the fact that we are teaching Linux and it is popular with students." An additional 33 eMacs are being purchased for the library and administration along with Xserve RAID storage systems for server backups. All up the deal is worth around $90,000. The new computers will ship with the just-released Mac OS X version 10.4 "Tiger", making the college one of the first in the country to deploy it for business. Ease of desktop management, in addition to looks, may have also influenced the decision. "We have had to build on top of Debian to get management functionality and Apple has worked hard with remote administration and updates," Bell said. "It's slicker than what we are used to and we can respond a bit better to user requirements. With Linux labs we might need to do a large update to install some software." Bell said he had suggested replacing all the Linux desktops with Macs and using the Ubuntu live CD for a Linux environment which "worked pretty well during testing" but, that was rejected. "Running Linux on the Macs remains a possibility, but seems strange since you already have Unix," he said. "It's silly to take away a good Unix with a good GUI and move to Linux which doesn't have as slick a GUI." On the server side, the college also runs Debian, but may look at Apple Xserves in the future. "Apple is back and embracing open source," Bell said. "For example, Mac OS X's mail server is Postfix and SquirrelMail which just happens to be what we are running on Debian." Although Bell is replacing Linux with Macs, he believes the operating system has "a lot of merit and promise" on the desktop and will keep advancing particularly those distributions with a polished GUI. "I don't think Macs and Linux are in direct competition as Linux gives the choice of Multiple hardware vendors," he said, adding that Macs have a role to play but are still niche. "It also depends on cost. If you can run your business without paying Microsoft, significant cost savings can be achieved." -- Apple's market share is bigger than BMW's or Mercedes's or Porsche's in the automotive market. What's wrong with being BMW or Mercedes? -- Steve Jobs Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From hartr at interweft.com.au Tue May 24 10:00:15 2005 From: hartr at interweft.com.au (Robert Hart) Date: Tue May 24 10:00:16 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: vip-l: Fwd: Target marketing via RFID to debut in Seattle In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20050524091411.01bfe560@popa.melbpc.org.au> References: <6.0.3.0.0.20050524091411.01bfe560@popa.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <42926E8F.9070104@interweft.com.au> Jan Whitaker wrote: >>> Six wireless public areas, called activation fields, will go live >>> next week >>> throughout downtown Seattle and at the city's ferry terminal. Over a >>> few >>> months 15 more city areas will be added. Users carrying an active >>> tag and >>> entering the activation field are recognized as the tag is read, and >>> then >>> are presented with announcements. >> Just what we need - more noise pollution in our city streets. I already feel that my listening rights are being invaded by the ghastly music that pours out of the average shop front these days and now this. I realise that my ears only going to be 'colleteral damage' in the this system, but I have awful feelings about the future of such technology. For example, I can see a system being sold to foreign language tourists who puchase a language specific tag and the system spits out Japanese or Frechn as appropriate and then it just goes on getting worse the more I think about it. >>> Data about the customer can be mined and sold to the retailers, Donohue >>> said. It can also be used to personalize marketing and map customer >>> behavior. >> I wonder if people have to pay for these tags or do they get them free? Btw - in case people think I am unjustifiably limiting blind people, I have a blind aunt (the first blind woman solicitor in the UK in fact) who took me round London by bus/tube when I was a kid without any problem or any of this terribly intrusive technology. -- Robert Hart hartr@interweft.com.au +61 (0)438 385 533 Brisbane, Australia http://www.hart.wattle.id.au From brd at iimetro.com.au Tue May 24 10:07:51 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Tue May 24 10:08:02 2005 Subject: [LINK] Feds launch e-research committee Message-ID: <42927057.8DBBA3AA@iimetro.com.au> Feds launch e-research committee Computerworld Staff 24/05/2005 09:14:21 http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php?id=1249864893&eid=-255 The federal government has formed an e-research coordinating committee, which is part of a $1 billion commitment to improve research infrastructure. IT Minister Helen Coonan and Education Minister Brendan Nelson jointly announced formation of the e-research coordinating committee which, according to Coonan, will bring together key stakeholders "develop a strategic framework to allow Australia to fully benefit from the implementation of e-research". Nelson said the Australian research community is embracing ICT and large-scale projects are being made possible for the first time. "With e-research, researchers will be able to overcome the tyranny of distance by providing more opportunities to collaborate nationally and internationally," he said. Contributors will include government departments, research institutions, research network providers, industry and funding agencies. -- Research is the process of going up alleys to see if they are blind. -- Marston Bates Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From Fred.Pilcher at act.gov.au Tue May 24 10:58:43 2005 From: Fred.Pilcher at act.gov.au (Pilcher, Fred) Date: Tue May 24 10:59:11 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: vip-l: Fwd: Target marketing via RFID to debut inSeattle Message-ID: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72F42E52@cal066.act.gov.au> Hi Robert. You wrote: > Just what we need - more noise pollution in our city streets. > I already > feel that my listening rights are being invaded by the ghastly music > that pours out of the average shop front these days and now this. Surely this is a problem (if, indeed, it is a problem) that short-range wireless technologies like Bluetooth could solve by providing these "services" to people who need/want them without assailing the rest of us. I've just come back from six weeks in the US, and it seemed that every second person wore a Bluetooth headset. Fred ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If you are not the intended recipient: Please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From tal at pacific.net.au Tue May 24 11:23:12 2005 From: tal at pacific.net.au (tal) Date: Tue May 24 11:25:45 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: vip-l: Fwd: Target marketing via RFID to debut in Seattle In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20050524091411.01bfe560@popa.melbpc.org.au> References: <6.0.3.0.0.20050524091411.01bfe560@popa.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <1116897791.8606.53.camel@canetoad> On Tue, 2005-05-24 at 09:14, Jan Whitaker wrote: >>Users of the personalized marketing system carry an active RFID tag roughly >>the size of a stack of four credit cards. When the tag comes within 100 feet >>of a transmitter sending low frequency signals at 126 kilohertz, the tag >>transmits a unique identification signal to a receiver connected to a >>monitoring and execution server. harumph! so much for the folk who said it would not be invasive technology, and could only be read at a distance of a few inches. yes, yes, i'm not blind, i noticed that these are special tags and transmitters, but so what? the only reason they don't have these tags on goods is surely size/cost, both of which will undoubtedly reduce dramatically in the near future. then the identification of individual items will create a profile, and the sales record will create a user id record, meaning that if you go shopping, the shops will gradually become more strident as you proceed. in the end, the limit to shopping may not be time/money/volume but simply the noise level of personally aimed shopping spam. and what if we get ID cards to protect us from terrorists? then any person with credit will be harassed as they walk down the street. isn't technology wonderful? Tim Lister South Sydney Greens (02)9557 4050 timlister@webspinning.org http://ssg.nsw.greens.org.au "Think Globally, Act Locally" From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Tue May 24 11:38:12 2005 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Tue May 24 11:38:19 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: ACIF Public Comment Advertisement Message-ID: <5fd558a460f2198c45ac0f7646282da9@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Begin forwarded message: > From: "Robin Williams" > Date: 24 May 2005 9:51:34 AM > To: > Subject: ACIF Public Comment Advertisement > > The Australian Communications Industry Forum (ACIF) invites public > comment on the following draft Supporting Arrangements and Australian > Standards that have been released for a 60 day public comment period ? > i.e. > > ? DR AS/ACIF S042.1:2005 Requirements for connection to an air > interface of a telecommunications network - Part 1: General > (revision); Part 3: GSM mobile station > > ? DR ACIF G548:2005 Supporting arrangements for AS/ACIF S042 > Requirements for connection to an air interface of a > telecommunications network (revision) > > ? DR2 AS/ACIF S041:2005 Requirements for DSL Customer Equipment for > connection to the Public Switched Telephone Network > ? DR2 AS/ACIF S002:2005 Analogue interworking and non-interference > requirements for Customer Equipment for connection to the Public > Switched Telephone Network (revision) > > The Draft Australian Standard DR AS/ACIF S042.1:2005 (part 1) proposes > changes to the emergency call access requirements and the removal of > the ignition of flammable material requirements for mobile phones > (including GSM, CDMA, and 3G/WCDMA) as currently specified in the 1999 > edition. > > The Draft Supporting Arrangements DR ACIF G548:2005 proposes a new > clause with guidance for conducting real-time text test calls to the > 106 emergency service provider. > > The Draft Australian Standard DR AS/ACIF S042.3:2005 (part 3) proposes > the requirements for GSM terminals (e.g. mobile handsets) up to and > including Phase 2+ and is proposed to supersede the current GSM mobile > terminal Standard ACA TS 018-1997. > > The Draft Australian Standard DR2 AS/ACIF S041:2005 proposes the > non-interference parameters and the technical requirements for > Customer Equipment (CE) that is designed or intended for connection to > a DSL service that is used in conjunction with an analogue PSTN > Ring-In/Loop-Out two-wire interface. > > The Draft Australian Standard DR2 AS/ACIF S002:2005 proposes changes > to the existing 2001 edition to remove the current ADSL modem and > filter requirements (the ?Appendix F requirements?) which are being > replaced by the proposed AS/ACIF S041 Standard. > > ACIF is a member-funded organisation established in 1997 to facilitate > communications self-regulation in the interests of both industry and > consumers.? ACIF provides a neutral forum in which all participants > and end-users in the Australian communications industry can work > together to foster an efficient, competitive environment through > self-regulatory processes, technical codes and standards. > > ACIF welcomes your input. > > Copies of the draft Supporting Arrangements and Australian Standards > can be obtained from ACIF: > ?http://acif.org.au/current_activities/public_comment > > Telephone:(02) 9959 9111 Email: acif@acif.org.au > Facsimile: (02) 9954 6136 Website: www.acif.org.au > > PUBLIC COMMENT PERIODS CLOSE AT 5.00 P.M. ON 26 JULY 2005 > > Kind regards, > Robin Williams > Coordinator Events, Publications & Compliance > Australian Communications Industry Forum > Tel:? (02) 9959 9113 > Fax: (02) 9954 6136 > phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Tue May 24 12:17:54 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Tue May 24 12:18:01 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: vip-l: Fwd: Target marketing via RFID to debut in Message-ID: <20050524021754.CLSP21117.swebmail02.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> Tal, > > From: tal > Date: 24/05/2005 11:23:12 > To: The Link Institute > Subject: Re: [LINK] Fwd: vip-l: Fwd: Target marketing via RFID to debut in > Seattle > > On Tue, 2005-05-24 at 09:14, Jan Whitaker wrote: > >>Users of the personalized marketing system carry an active RFID tag > roughly > >>the size of a stack of four credit cards. When the tag comes within > 100 feet > >>of a transmitter sending low frequency signals at 126 kilohertz, the > tag > >>transmits a unique identification signal to a receiver connected to a > >>monitoring and execution server. > > harumph! so much for the folk who said it would not be invasive > technology, and could only be read at a distance of a few inches. > > yes, yes, i'm not blind, i noticed that these are special tags and > transmitters, but so what? the only reason they don't have these tags > on goods is surely size/cost, both of which will undoubtedly reduce > dramatically in the near future. Please, Tal, don't perpetuate the myth that the Greens would rather decry a technology than learn about it. Off the top of my head, there are three RFID "size profiles" which occur: 1) dust-sized - very, very, very short range. No electricity of its own. Electromagnetic coupling. Signal strength decays at 10E(-6). You can't hack physics. 2) coin-sized - For eg, DVD stock control. Recycled at store wherever possible. 3) Phone sized Both your mobile phone and a tollway tag. Also the technical basis for this initiative. I have repeatedly worked through these distinctions on Link. A block of technology you buy and use on purpose is not the same as planting a covert tiny something against our will. Please, TL, if the Greens ever decide to put an official position about RFID, don't let it be informed by the tinfoil hats... I so much want to think well of the Greens, but BB sometimes needs the "think before you spout" 24-hour gaffa tape for his mouth... Richard Chirgwin > and what if we get ID cards to protect us from terrorists? then any > person with credit will be harassed as they walk down the street. > > isn't technology wonderful? > > Tim Lister > South Sydney Greens > (02)9557 4050 > timlister@webspinning.org > http://ssg.nsw.greens.org.au > "Think Globally, Act Locally" > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au From vicc at cia.com.au Tue May 24 12:21:14 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Domino Dangerfield) Date: Tue May 24 12:22:55 2005 Subject: [LINK] novel use for google maps Message-ID: <20050524022114.GA15476@cia.com.au> http://www.chicagocrime.org/locations/street/ From glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au Tue May 24 13:00:59 2005 From: glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au (Glen Turner) Date: Tue May 24 13:01:15 2005 Subject: [LINK] New rules to enable higher-rate broadband services In-Reply-To: <07ae22c71f8087e9e241ce25eddd60b9@tony-barry.emu.id.au> References: <07ae22c71f8087e9e241ce25eddd60b9@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Message-ID: <429298EB.20800@aarnet.edu.au> > Industry will be able to deliver higher-rate broadband services through > local telephone lines, in a state known as the unconditioned local loop > (ULL), following registration today of an industry code and technical > standard by the Australian Communications Authority (ACA). This has puff piece elements. The previous code had a list of device types followed by a technical description of the voltages and waveforms allowed for other devices. ADSL2 fell within the technical description. The new code simply adds ADSL2 to the list of explicit device types. Nothing prevented it from being used before (as shown by Internode's ADSL2 rollout). Cheers, Glen From Fred.Pilcher at act.gov.au Tue May 24 13:15:30 2005 From: Fred.Pilcher at act.gov.au (Pilcher, Fred) Date: Tue May 24 13:16:16 2005 Subject: [LINK] novel use for google maps Message-ID: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72F42E57@cal066.act.gov.au> > Subject: [LINK] novel use for google maps > > http://www.chicagocrime.org/locations/street/ Interesting. I used Google Maps and Mapsearch constantly while I was in the US. They delivered me door-to-door with astounding reliability. A lack of street signs was the only glitch. It's an unbelievably good service and I can't wait until it's available here. Fred ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If you are not the intended recipient: Please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From lannet at lannet.com.au Tue May 24 15:57:07 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Tue May 24 15:57:23 2005 Subject: [LINK] Another key drug word to put into the spam block dictionary Message-ID: <4292C233.8020707@lannet.com.au> dapoxetine will soon start to appear along side Viagra and Cialis in performance enhancement spam. http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200505/s1375855.htm -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From hartr at interweft.com.au Tue May 24 16:00:31 2005 From: hartr at interweft.com.au (Robert Hart) Date: Tue May 24 16:00:54 2005 Subject: [LINK] novel use for google maps In-Reply-To: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72F42E57@cal066.act.gov.au> References: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72F42E57@cal066.act.gov.au> Message-ID: <4292C2FF.5000804@interweft.com.au> Pilcher, Fred wrote: >>Subject: [LINK] novel use for google maps >> >>http://www.chicagocrime.org/locations/street/ >> >> > >Interesting. > >I used Google Maps and Mapsearch constantly while I was in the US. They delivered me door-to-door with astounding reliability. A lack of street signs was the only glitch. It's an unbelievably good service and I can't wait until it's available here. > Goodness yes - I used it 2 or three times a week in the US when my working life was get up on Monday morning, catch a plane. pick up a rental car, drive to office, then to hotel, sleep - then repeat! I found I was pretty lost without it herein Oz - and the 'whereis' service is rubbish by comparison. The maps are far too small. -- Robert Hart hartr@interweft.com.au +61 (0)438 385 533 Brisbane, Australia http://www.hart.wattle.id.au From Fred.Pilcher at act.gov.au Tue May 24 16:30:07 2005 From: Fred.Pilcher at act.gov.au (Pilcher, Fred) Date: Tue May 24 16:33:58 2005 Subject: [LINK] novel use for google maps Message-ID: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72F42E63@cal066.act.gov.au> > >I used Google Maps and Mapsearch constantly while I was in > the US. They delivered me door-to-door with astounding > reliability. A lack of street signs was the only glitch. It's > an unbelievably good service and I can't wait until it's > available here. > > > Goodness yes - I used it 2 or three times a week in the US when my > working life was get up on Monday morning, catch a plane. pick up a > rental car, drive to office, then to hotel, sleep - then repeat! > > I found I was pretty lost without it herein Oz - and the 'whereis' > service is rubbish by comparison. The maps are far too small. And you don't get the >From 12 Smith Street, drive 0.3 miles east. Turn Left into Jones Street. Drive 1.5 miles. Bear left into Wilson Road. Drive 10 miles. Take exit 78 to xxx ... Turn Left into Bloggs street. Drive 0.2 miles to #34. It's absolutely incredible. I'm damned if I know how they do it. Fred ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If you are not the intended recipient: Please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From p.hughes at latrobe.edu.au Tue May 24 16:46:40 2005 From: p.hughes at latrobe.edu.au (Peter Hughes) Date: Tue May 24 16:46:50 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: ::fc-announce:: Forum: Learning from Free Software, Sydney June 2 Message-ID: <172e07866d37f427841fbbad66b99711@latrobe.edu.au> This event might be of interest to some members of LINK. (sorry if it has been posted already and I missed it!) ¥¥¥ LEARNING FROM FREE SOFTWARE ¥¥¥ teaching the net generation A forum on free software in secondary and tertiary education hosted by the University of SydneyÕs Arts Informatics program ¥¥ EVENT DETAILS 6pm-8pm Thursday June 2, 2005 Rogers Room John Woolley Building University of Sydney RSVP by May 30 essential: 9351 2226 or patricia.ricketts@arts.usyd.edu.au ¥¥ Chair Dr Chris Chesher Director of Arts Informatics ¥¥ Panel Dr Elizabeth Gordon-Werner NSW Department of Commerce Roger Buck Studio of Arts And Sciences John Tonkin Arts Informatics, University of Sydney ¥¥¥ ÔFreeÕ and Ôopen sourceÕ software are increasingly viable in educational contexts as alternatives and supplements to commercial software. Beyond its price, free software is attractive for the open and participatory models it offers for making and sharing knowledge. However, there remain significant practical and institutional obstacles to their widespread adoption. This seminar is the Þrst in a series on ÒTeaching the Net GenerationÓ organised by the Arts Informatics program at the University of Sydney. This series aims to bring together educators from secondary and tertiary institutions to discuss practical and policy issues around using information and communication technologies in teaching and administration. The panel will discuss examples of free software being used in education, as well as the implications of creative commons licences and systems for collaborative authorship such as wikipedia. ÔFreeÕ software is most famously successful in Internet technologies such as the Apache web server, and the GNU/Linux operating system. ÊMore recently, though, educators have taken up open source learning management systems like Moodle or LAMS, as well as blogs, wikis and web content management systems in teaching and administration. The panelists will present brief talks that will be followed with an open discussion of the role of free software in teaching network literacy and fostering cultures of collaboration. Free software needs to offer better user experience, more comprehensive documentation and more effective models for supporting users. Therefore open source and free software communities increasingly need involvement of people beyond the traditional information technology sectors, including educators and those in the humanities. The ÔLearning from free softwareÕ seminar is presented by the Arts Informatics program, which co-ordinates the Bachelor of Arts Informatics, an undergraduate degree based on a cross-Faculty collaboration between the Faculty of Arts and the School of Information Technologies in the Faculty of Science. Arts Informatics is also home to a growing research program concentrating on the intersections between information technologies and the humanities.ÊÊ ¥¥¥ Refreshments and light snacks will be served. Entry is free, but RSVP is essential. For further information, see the Arts Informatics website: http://www.arts.usyd.edu.au/departs/informatics Event info (including a link to a PDF brochure and map): ¥¥¥ -- - Dr Chris Chesher Woolley Building S314 Director (02) 9036 6173 Arts Informatics Program mob 0404095480 University of Sydney chris.chesher@arts.usyd.edu.au http://www.arts.usyd.edu.au/departs/informatics/ All the best, P. -------------------------------------------- Peter Hughes Program Coordinator, Media Studies Program, La Trobe University, Victoria, 3086, Australia. ph: +61 3 9479 3065 (w), fax: +61 3 9479 3638 (w) http://www.latrobe.edu.au/media Screening the past. An international, refereed electronic journal of visual media and history: http://www.latrobe.edu.au/screeningthepast From hartr at interweft.com.au Tue May 24 21:00:00 2005 From: hartr at interweft.com.au (Robert Hart) Date: Tue May 24 21:00:01 2005 Subject: [LINK] novel use for google maps In-Reply-To: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72F42E63@cal066.act.gov.au> References: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72F42E63@cal066.act.gov.au> Message-ID: <42930930.7090606@interweft.com.au> Pilcher, Fred wrote: >And you don't get the > >>From 12 Smith Street, drive 0.3 miles east. >Turn Left into Jones Street. Drive 1.5 miles. >Bear left into Wilson Road. Drive 10 miles. >Take exit 78 to xxx >.. >Turn Left into Bloggs street. Drive 0.2 miles to #34. > >It's absolutely incredible. I'm damned if I know how they do it. > > I presume they had the same software running that powers the in car GPS nav systems. Mind you, they are not always terribly helpful. I remember one hilarious (because I had time) occasion when the Hertz in car nav system was incapable of navigating me back to the Hertz depot at LAX. It was telling me to go in a particular direction and I couldn't (one way street). I could however see the Hertz depot and worked out how to get their from a map. On the hundreds of occasions I used the Yahoo Map facility to give me driving directions, I never once had such a problem. -- Robert Hart hartr@interweft.com.au +61 (0)438 385 533 Brisbane, Australia http://www.hart.wattle.id.au From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Wed May 25 07:35:27 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Wed May 25 07:34:42 2005 Subject: [LINK] novel use for google maps In-Reply-To: <42930930.7090606@interweft.com.au> References: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72F42E63@cal066.act.gov.au> <42930930.7090606@interweft.com.au> Message-ID: <42939E1F.3050402@ozemail.com.au> Well, since we're on the topic - what's a good online "driving directions" for the UK that doesn't suffer from "turn left, east for 0.2 miles"? RC Robert Hart wrote: > Pilcher, Fred wrote: > >> And you don't get the >> >>> From 12 Smith Street, drive 0.3 miles east. >> >> Turn Left into Jones Street. Drive 1.5 miles. >> Bear left into Wilson Road. Drive 10 miles. >> Take exit 78 to xxx >> .. >> Turn Left into Bloggs street. Drive 0.2 miles to #34. >> >> It's absolutely incredible. I'm damned if I know how they do it. >> >> > I presume they had the same software running that powers the in car > GPS nav systems. > > Mind you, they are not always terribly helpful. I remember one > hilarious (because I had time) occasion when the Hertz in car nav > system was incapable of navigating me back to the Hertz depot at LAX. > It was telling me to go in a particular direction and I couldn't (one > way street). I could however see the Hertz depot and worked out how to > get their from a map. > > On the hundreds of occasions I used the Yahoo Map facility to give me > driving directions, I never once had such a problem. > From reagan at whatever.net.au Wed May 25 08:28:37 2005 From: reagan at whatever.net.au (Reagan Blundell) Date: Wed May 25 08:28:41 2005 Subject: [LINK] novel use for google maps In-Reply-To: <42939E1F.3050402@ozemail.com.au> References: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72F42E63@cal066.act.gov.au> <42930930.7090606@interweft.com.au> <42939E1F.3050402@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <20050524222836.GD15635@desire.whatever.net.au> On Wed, May 25, 2005 at 07:35:27AM +1000, rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > Well, since we're on the topic - what's a good online "driving > directions" for the UK that doesn't suffer from "turn left, east for 0.2 > miles"? Personally, I use the AA's routeplanner http://www.theaa.com/travelwatch/planner_main.jsp Reagan From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Wed May 25 08:01:18 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Wed May 25 09:02:22 2005 Subject: [LINK] novel use for google maps In-Reply-To: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72F42E63@cal066.act.gov.au> References: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72F42E63@cal066.act.gov.au> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20050525080103.01f71cb8@popa.melbpc.org.au> At 04:30 PM 24/05/2005, Pilcher, Fred wrote: > >From 12 Smith Street, drive 0.3 miles east. >Turn Left into Jones Street. Drive 1.5 miles. >Bear left into Wilson Road. Drive 10 miles. >Take exit 78 to xxx >... >Turn Left into Bloggs street. Drive 0.2 miles to #34. > >It's absolutely incredible. I'm damned if I know how they do it. > >Fred Maybe the same way that RACV does it? Have a look. Jan JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Wed May 25 09:08:23 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Wed May 25 09:17:51 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: (-: content blocker Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20050525090805.01fa6608@popa.melbpc.org.au> Speaking of google services: >http://j-walk.com/other/googlecb/index.htm > >What is Google Content Blocker? >Google's mission is to organize the world's advertising for maximum >exposure to Web users. Unfortunately, annoying Web content often >overwhelms the page, causing many users to become distracted and overlook >the ads. > >That's where Google Content Blocker comes in. It effectively blocks all >Web site content, leaving only the advertisements. > >[...] >------------- JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From rick at praxis.com.au Wed May 25 09:51:17 2005 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Wed May 25 09:51:29 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: (-: content blocker In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20050525090805.01fa6608@popa.melbpc.org.au> References: <6.0.3.0.0.20050525090805.01fa6608@popa.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <4293BDF5.9000002@praxis.com.au> Jan Whitaker wrote: > Speaking of google services: > >> http://j-walk.com/other/googlecb/index.htm >> >> What is Google Content Blocker? >> Google's mission is to organize the world's advertising for maximum >> exposure to Web users. Unfortunately, annoying Web content often >> overwhelms the page, causing many users to become distracted and >> overlook the ads. >> >> That's where Google Content Blocker comes in. It effectively blocks >> all Web site content, leaving only the advertisements. >> >> [...] Brilliant! Now, if we combine the services of Google Content Blocker with a competent Ad Blocker, the entire Interweb is blocked. Then we can get out of our seats and out into the real world. :) cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services "I drank what?" - Socrates, 399 BC From rick at praxis.com.au Wed May 25 09:56:39 2005 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Wed May 25 09:56:54 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: Ross Anderson: Crypto wars are over, and we've won! Message-ID: <4293BF37.3060309@praxis.com.au> Some Linkers may be interested in this update on the state of the crypto wars, i.e. our right to using crypto for privacy and various gummint's push to severely restrict and intercept the use of cryptography. It looks like we the people have won. Although, as the history below indicates, we the people were betrayed several times along the way. cheers rickw * * * * * * * * * * * * Press release - Foundation for Information Policy research Release time: 00.01, 25th May 2005 The Crypto Wars Are Over! The "crypto wars" are finally over - and we've won! On 25th May 2005, Part I of the Electronic Communications Act 2000 will be torn out of the statute book and shredded, finally removing the risk of the UK Government taking powers to seize encryption keys. The crypto wars started in the 1970s when the US government started treating cryptographic algorithms and software as munitions and interfering with university research in cryptography. In the early 1990s, the Clinton administration tried to get industry to adopt the Clipper chip - an encryption chip for which the government had a back-door key. When this failed, they tried to introduce key escrow - a policy that all encryption systems should leave a spare key with a `trusted third party' that would hand the key over to the FBI on demand. They tried to crack down on encryption products that did not contain key escrow. When software developer Phil Zimmermann developed PGP, a free mass-market encryption product for emails and files, the US government even started to prosecute him, because someone had exported his software from the USA without government permission. In its dying days, John Major's Conservative Government proposed draconian controls in the UK too. Any provider of encryption services would have to be licensed and encryption keys would have to be placed in escrow just in case the Government wanted to read your email. New Labour opposed crypto controls in opposition, which got them a lot of support from the IT and civil liberties communities. They changed their minds, though, after they came to power in May 1997 and the US government lobbied them. However, encryption was rapidly becoming an important technology for commercial use of the Internet - and the new industry was deeply opposed to any bureaucracy which prevented them from innovating and imposed unnecessary costs. So was the banking industry, which worried about threats to payment systems from corrupt officials. In 1998, the Foundation for Information Policy Research was established by cryptographers, lawyers, academics and civil liberty groups, with industry support, and helped campaign for digital freedoms. In the autumn of 1999, Tony Blair finally conceded that controls would be counterproductive. But the intelligence agencies remained nervous about his decision, and in the May 2000 Electronic Communications Act the Home Office left in a vestigial power to create a registration regime for encryption services. That power was subject to a five year "sunset clause", whose clock finally runs out on 25th May 2005. Ross Anderson, chair of the Foundation of Information Policy Research (FIPR) and a key campaigner against government control of encryption commented, "We told government at the time that there was no real conflict between privacy and security. On the encryption issue, time has proved us right. The same applies to many other issues too - so long as lawmakers take the trouble to understand a technology before they regulate it." Phil Zimmermann, a FIPR Advisory Council member and the man whose role in developing PGP was crucial to winning the crypto wars in the USA commented, "It's nice to see the last remnant of the crypto wars in Great Britain finally laid to rest, and I feel good about our win. Now we must focus on the other erosions of privacy in the post-9/11 world." Notes to Editors: 1. The Foundation for Information Policy Research is an independent body that studies the interaction between information technology and society. Its goal is to identify technical developments with significant social impact, commission and undertaken research into public policy alternatives, and promote public understanding and dialogue between technologists and policy-makers in the UK and Europe. 2. The late Professor Roger Needham, who was a founder and trustee of FIPR, as well as being Pro-Vice-Chancellor of Cambridge University, a lifelong Labour party member and, for the last five years of his life, Managing Director of Microsoft Research Europe, once said: `Our enemy is not the government of the day - our enemy is ignorance. If ignorance and government happen to be co-located, then we'd better do something about it.' 3. The Electronic Communications Act 2000 received Royal Assent on the 25th May 2000. Part I provides for the Secretary of State to create a Register of Cryptography Support Services. s16(4) reads: "If no order for bringing Part I of this Act into force has been made under subsection (2) by the end of the period of five years beginning with the day on which this Act is passed, that Part shall, by virtue of this subsection, be repealed at the end of that period." 4. The crypto wars ended in the USA when Al Gore, the most outspoken advocate of key escrow, was found by the US Supreme Court to have lost the presidential election of 2000. 5. The last battle in the crypto wars to be fought on UK soil was in the House of Lords over the Export Control Act 2002. In this bill, Tony Blair's government took powers to license the export of intangibles such as software, where previously the law had only enabled them to criminalise the unlicensed export of physical goods such as guns. This caused resistance from the IT industry, and also raised the prospect that scientific communications would become subject to licensing. FIPR organised a coalition of Conservative, Liberal and crossbench peers to insert a research exemption (section 8) into the Act, and an Open General Export License was created for developers of crypto software. 6. Phil Zimmermann is arriving in London on the 25th May to take part in PGP Corporation activities until Thursday. Journalists wishing to interview him can send email to prz at mit dot edu, or make contact via the St Martin's Lane Hotel, tel 44 207 3005500, fax 44 207 3005501 [ends] * * * * * * * * * * * * From lannet at lannet.com.au Wed May 25 11:13:30 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Wed May 25 11:13:56 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: Ross Anderson: Crypto wars are over, and we've won! In-Reply-To: <4293BF37.3060309@praxis.com.au> References: <4293BF37.3060309@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <4293D13A.3080205@lannet.com.au> I have to be really cynical to believe that crypto control is truely off any gummint's agenda. Rick Welykochy wrote: > Some Linkers may be interested in this update on the state of > the crypto wars, i.e. our right to using crypto for privacy and > various gummint's push to severely restrict and intercept the > use of cryptography. It looks like we the people have won. Although, > as the history below indicates, we the people were betrayed several > times along the way. > > cheers > rickw > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * > > Press release - Foundation for Information Policy research > > Release time: 00.01, 25th May 2005 > > > The Crypto Wars Are Over! > > > The "crypto wars" are finally over - and we've won! > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From link at todd.inoz.com Wed May 25 11:59:54 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Wed May 25 12:07:01 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: (-: content blocker In-Reply-To: <4293BDF5.9000002@praxis.com.au> References: <6.0.3.0.0.20050525090805.01fa6608@popa.melbpc.org.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050525090805.01fa6608@popa.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050525115920.02ec5af8@pop> At 09:51 25/05/2005 +1000, Rick Welykochy wrote: >Jan Whitaker wrote: > >>Speaking of google services: >> >>>http://j-walk.com/other/googlecb/index.htm >>> >>>What is Google Content Blocker? >>>Google's mission is to organize the world's advertising for maximum >>>exposure to Web users. Unfortunately, annoying Web content often >>>overwhelms the page, causing many users to become distracted and >>>overlook the ads. >>> >>>That's where Google Content Blocker comes in. It effectively blocks all >>>Web site content, leaving only the advertisements. >>> >>>[...] > >Brilliant! > >Now, if we combine the services of Google Content Blocker with a >competent Ad Blocker, the entire Interweb is blocked. Then we can get >out of our seats and out into the real world. :) Ok Rick, you have me here. What's the URL for the real world? (I know it's not Friday.) From vicc at cia.com.au Wed May 25 12:39:04 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Dinglebert Dumperding) Date: Wed May 25 12:40:20 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: (-: content blocker In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20050525115920.02ec5af8@pop> References: <6.0.3.0.0.20050525090805.01fa6608@popa.melbpc.org.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050525090805.01fa6608@popa.melbpc.org.au> <5.1.0.14.0.20050525115920.02ec5af8@pop> Message-ID: <20050525023904.GA29613@cia.com.au> Adam Todd [link@todd.inoz.com] wrote: > At 09:51 25/05/2005 +1000, Rick Welykochy wrote: > >Jan Whitaker wrote: > > > >>Speaking of google services: > >> > >>>http://j-walk.com/other/googlecb/index.htm > >>> > >>>What is Google Content Blocker? > >>>Google's mission is to organize the world's advertising for maximum > >>>exposure to Web users. Unfortunately, annoying Web content often > >>>overwhelms the page, causing many users to become distracted and > >>>overlook the ads. > >>> > >>>That's where Google Content Blocker comes in. It effectively blocks all > >>>Web site content, leaving only the advertisements. > >>> > >>>[...] > > > >Brilliant! > > > >Now, if we combine the services of Google Content Blocker with a > >competent Ad Blocker, the entire Interweb is blocked. Then we can get > >out of our seats and out into the real world. :) > > Ok Rick, you have me here. What's the URL for the real world? on mtv where else could it be? http://www.mtv.com/onair/realworld/ Vic From Markus.Buchhorn at anu.edu.au Wed May 25 13:02:07 2005 From: Markus.Buchhorn at anu.edu.au (Markus Buchhorn) Date: Wed May 25 13:02:46 2005 Subject: [LINK] novel use for google maps In-Reply-To: <42939E1F.3050402@ozemail.com.au> References: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72F42E63@cal066.act.gov.au> <42930930.7090606@interweft.com.au> <42939E1F.3050402@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20050525122849.02e68ec0@acsys.anu.edu.au> At 07:35 AM 25/05/2005 +1000, rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: >Well, since we're on the topic - what's a good online "driving directions" for the UK that doesn't suffer from "turn left, east for 0.2 miles"? Which part of those instructions don't you like? (Ok 'east' is excessive information). In-car systems talk like that to give you some reasonable warning of quick lane-changes needed, apart from that yes, they talk too much :-) Varies by vendor though. Anyway, Mappoint is pretty impressive - either http://mappoint.msn.com or http://mappoint.ninemsn.com.au/ The maps.racv.com.au one is also good (for Australia), although doesn't seem to have an option for shortest vs fastest that I can find? Cheers, Markus Markus Buchhorn, ANU Internet Futures |Ph: +61 2 61258810 Markus.Buchhorn@anu.edu.au |Fx: +61 2 61259805 The Australian National University, Canberra 0200 |Mob: 0417 281429 From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Wed May 25 13:13:16 2005 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Wed May 25 13:13:29 2005 Subject: [LINK] ACA releases IPND draft industry standard Message-ID: <65602105415152282978d21a509f9de3@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Media release No.?27 -?25?May 2005 ACA releases IPND draft industry standard The Australian Communications Authority (ACA) today released for public comment a draft industry standard about the protection of customer personal data. A key principle of the draft standard is that the use of customer information in the Integrated Public Number Database (IPND) and access to that information is restricted and protected. ?The draft Telecommunications (IPND) Industry Standard attempts to balance community and commercial expectations on the use of personal information in the contemporary environment,? ACA Acting Chairman Dr Bob Horton said. ?It clarifies the approved purposes of IPND data and tightens internal control mechanisms surrounding access to IPND data.?? The draft standard also provides a clear and enforceable set of rules on the collection, use and disclosure of customer information in the IPND. ?Concern about improper use of telecommunications customer information and lack of clarity around and compliance with the industry code led the ACA to make preparations for the mandatory industry standard about the use of this information,? Dr Horton said. The ACA is calling for submissions on the draft standard from interested individuals, groups and industry bodies.?? Those making submissions are also invited to comment on a number of related issues, including the list of ?approved purposes? for which IPND data may be used.? In this respect, the ACA is leaving the door open to contemplate further acceptable database uses for the market research community, for example.? The deadline for written submissions on the draft standard is Friday 1 July 2005.? They should be sent to: Jacqui Thorpe Australian Communications Authority PO Box 13112 Law Courts Melbourne VIC 8010 or by email to draftstandard@aca.gov.au The ACA will consult with the Telecommunications Industry Ombudsman, the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission, the Office of the Federal Privacy Commission and a consumer body before determining an industry standard. The draft industry standard is on the?ACA website.?? The Australian Communications Authority is a government regulator of telecommunications and radiocommunications For more information: All media enquires: John Haydon Paul Slocum Executive Manager Consumer Manager Communications Telephone: (03)?9963 6920 Telephone: (03) 9963 6966 Mobile: 0408 152 471 phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From lannet at lannet.com.au Wed May 25 13:35:10 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Wed May 25 13:35:27 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: (-: content blocker In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20050525115920.02ec5af8@pop> References: <6.0.3.0.0.20050525090805.01fa6608@popa.melbpc.org.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050525090805.01fa6608@popa.melbpc.org.au> <5.1.0.14.0.20050525115920.02ec5af8@pop> Message-ID: <4293F26E.4050101@lannet.com.au> http://stoptheworldiwanttogetoff.com Adam Todd wrote: > At 09:51 25/05/2005 +1000, Rick Welykochy wrote: > >> Jan Whitaker wrote: >> >>> Speaking of google services: >>> >>>> http://j-walk.com/other/googlecb/index.htm >>>> >>>> What is Google Content Blocker? >>>> Google's mission is to organize the world's advertising for maximum >>>> exposure to Web users. Unfortunately, annoying Web content often >>>> overwhelms the page, causing many users to become distracted and >>>> overlook the ads. >>>> >>>> That's where Google Content Blocker comes in. It effectively blocks >>>> all Web site content, leaving only the advertisements. >>>> >>>> [...] >> >> >> Brilliant! >> >> Now, if we combine the services of Google Content Blocker with a >> competent Ad Blocker, the entire Interweb is blocked. Then we can get >> out of our seats and out into the real world. :) > > > Ok Rick, you have me here. What's the URL for the real world? > > > > > (I know it's not Friday.) > > > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From link at todd.inoz.com Wed May 25 16:32:39 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Wed May 25 17:09:57 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: (-: content blocker In-Reply-To: <4293F26E.4050101@lannet.com.au> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20050525115920.02ec5af8@pop> <6.0.3.0.0.20050525090805.01fa6608@popa.melbpc.org.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050525090805.01fa6608@popa.melbpc.org.au> <5.1.0.14.0.20050525115920.02ec5af8@pop> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050525163231.03b40008@wheresmymailserver.com> That's so real I can't even get to it from the net! At 13:35 25/05/2005 +1000, Howard Lowndes wrote: >http://stoptheworldiwanttogetoff.com > >Adam Todd wrote: >>At 09:51 25/05/2005 +1000, Rick Welykochy wrote: >> >>>Jan Whitaker wrote: >>> >>>>Speaking of google services: >>>> >>>>>http://j-walk.com/other/googlecb/index.htm >>>>> >>>>>What is Google Content Blocker? >>>>>Google's mission is to organize the world's advertising for maximum >>>>>exposure to Web users. Unfortunately, annoying Web content often >>>>>overwhelms the page, causing many users to become distracted and >>>>>overlook the ads. >>>>> >>>>>That's where Google Content Blocker comes in. It effectively blocks >>>>>all Web site content, leaving only the advertisements. >>>>> >>>>>[...] >>> >>> >>>Brilliant! >>> >>>Now, if we combine the services of Google Content Blocker with a >>>competent Ad Blocker, the entire Interweb is blocked. Then we can get >>>out of our seats and out into the real world. :) >> >>Ok Rick, you have me here. What's the URL for the real world? >> >> >>(I know it's not Friday.) >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Link mailing list >>Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >>http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > >-- >Howard. >LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people >-- >When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; >When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. >-- >Flatter government, not fatter government; >Get rid of the Australian states. > > From lannet at lannet.com.au Wed May 25 17:17:12 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Wed May 25 17:17:27 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: (-: content blocker In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20050525163231.03b40008@wheresmymailserver.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20050525115920.02ec5af8@pop> <6.0.3.0.0.20050525090805.01fa6608@popa.melbpc.org.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050525090805.01fa6608@popa.melbpc.org.au> <5.1.0.14.0.20050525115920.02ec5af8@pop> <5.1.0.14.0.20050525163231.03b40008@wheresmymailserver.com> Message-ID: <42942678.9000708@lannet.com.au> That's because it doesn't exist, except in my mind, which just goes to prove that you can't avoid reality :) Adam Todd wrote: > > That's so real I can't even get to it from the net! > > At 13:35 25/05/2005 +1000, Howard Lowndes wrote: > >> http://stoptheworldiwanttogetoff.com >> >> Adam Todd wrote: >> >>> At 09:51 25/05/2005 +1000, Rick Welykochy wrote: >>> >>>> Jan Whitaker wrote: >>>> >>>>> Speaking of google services: >>>>> >>>>>> http://j-walk.com/other/googlecb/index.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> What is Google Content Blocker? >>>>>> Google's mission is to organize the world's advertising for >>>>>> maximum exposure to Web users. Unfortunately, annoying Web content >>>>>> often overwhelms the page, causing many users to become distracted >>>>>> and overlook the ads. >>>>>> >>>>>> That's where Google Content Blocker comes in. It effectively >>>>>> blocks all Web site content, leaving only the advertisements. >>>>>> >>>>>> [...] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brilliant! >>>> >>>> Now, if we combine the services of Google Content Blocker with a >>>> competent Ad Blocker, the entire Interweb is blocked. Then we can get >>>> out of our seats and out into the real world. :) >>> >>> >>> Ok Rick, you have me here. What's the URL for the real world? >>> >>> >>> (I know it's not Friday.) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Link mailing list >>> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >>> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link >> >> >> -- >> Howard. >> LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people >> -- >> When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; >> When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. >> -- >> Flatter government, not fatter government; >> Get rid of the Australian states. >> >> > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Wed May 25 20:36:43 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Wed May 25 21:16:28 2005 Subject: [LINK] novel use for google maps In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20050525122849.02e68ec0@acsys.anu.edu.au> References: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72F42E63@cal066.act.gov.au> <42930930.7090606@interweft.com.au> <42939E1F.3050402@ozemail.com.au> <6.1.0.6.2.20050525122849.02e68ec0@acsys.anu.edu.au> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20050525203420.01ec2b60@popa.melbpc.org.au> At 01:02 PM 25/05/2005, Markus Buchhorn wrote: >The maps.racv.com.au one is also good (for Australia), although doesn't >seem to have an option for shortest vs fastest that I can find? I also just did one for Canberra from my place [yes, guys, I'm coming back; dinner 10 June?] and it had tolls or no tolls. I tried both and got the same instructions both ways, even though there is a toll and non-toll option for me. I also wanted to come back through Cooma, that is complete the loop, and there was no way to do that. I had to do a Canberra/Cooma and then Cooma/Berwick to get that route. Jan JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From link at todd.inoz.com Wed May 25 22:05:55 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Wed May 25 22:10:19 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: (-: content blocker In-Reply-To: <42942678.9000708@lannet.com.au> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20050525163231.03b40008@wheresmymailserver.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20050525115920.02ec5af8@pop> <6.0.3.0.0.20050525090805.01fa6608@popa.melbpc.org.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050525090805.01fa6608@popa.melbpc.org.au> <5.1.0.14.0.20050525115920.02ec5af8@pop> <5.1.0.14.0.20050525163231.03b40008@wheresmymailserver.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050525220510.02ecfdd0@pop> Go easy them Howard! I've been accused of loosing touch with reality because I believed I was going to be on TV and was! You're starting to mess with my delicate mind! At 17:17 25/05/2005 +1000, Howard Lowndes wrote: >That's because it doesn't exist, except in my mind, which just goes to >prove that you can't avoid reality :) > > >Adam Todd wrote: >>That's so real I can't even get to it from the net! >>At 13:35 25/05/2005 +1000, Howard Lowndes wrote: >> >>>http://stoptheworldiwanttogetoff.com >>> >>>Adam Todd wrote: >>> >>>>At 09:51 25/05/2005 +1000, Rick Welykochy wrote: >>>> >>>>>Jan Whitaker wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Speaking of google services: >>>>>> >>>>>>>http://j-walk.com/other/googlecb/index.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>>What is Google Content Blocker? >>>>>>>Google's mission is to organize the world's advertising for maximum >>>>>>>exposure to Web users. Unfortunately, annoying Web content often >>>>>>>overwhelms the page, causing many users to become distracted and >>>>>>>overlook the ads. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>That's where Google Content Blocker comes in. It effectively blocks >>>>>>>all Web site content, leaving only the advertisements. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>[...] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Brilliant! >>>>> >>>>>Now, if we combine the services of Google Content Blocker with a >>>>>competent Ad Blocker, the entire Interweb is blocked. Then we can get >>>>>out of our seats and out into the real world. :) >>>> >>>> >>>>Ok Rick, you have me here. What's the URL for the real world? >>>> >>>> >>>>(I know it's not Friday.) >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Link mailing list >>>>Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >>>>http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link >>> >>> >>>-- >>>Howard. >>>LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people >>>-- >>>When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; >>>When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. >>>-- >>>Flatter government, not fatter government; >>>Get rid of the Australian states. >>> > >-- >Howard. >LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people >-- >When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; >When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. >-- >Flatter government, not fatter government; >Get rid of the Australian states. > > From brendansweb at optusnet.com.au Thu May 26 09:14:29 2005 From: brendansweb at optusnet.com.au (Brendan Scott) Date: Thu May 26 09:14:13 2005 Subject: [LINK] Nokia releases patents to linux kernel Message-ID: <429506D5.7010106@optusnet.com.au> [from another list] > -------- Original Message -------- > > """Espoo, Finland - Nokia Corporation announced today that it allows all its > patents to be used in the further development of the Linux Kernel. Nokia > believes that open source software communities, like open standards, foster > innovation and make an important contribution to the creation and rapid > adaptation of technologies.""" > > (http://press.nokia.com/PR/200505/995845_5.html) > > > Horst From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au Thu May 26 09:38:35 2005 From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington) Date: Thu May 26 09:39:54 2005 Subject: [LINK] FCC requires 911 for VoIP In-Reply-To: <428C4B88.8010602@ozemail.com.au> References: <20050518013846.BAMV8920.swebmail00.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <428B7B9B.1060809@melbpc.org.au> <428BBFBD.3070909@lannet.com.au> <428C4B88.8010602@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050523162636.01d7b268@fastmail.fm> At 06:17 PM 5/19/2005, rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: >Howard Lowndes wrote: >>With VoIP the problem is in identifying where the call originates so that >>the emergency call can be appropriately directed. > >Yes ... well, that and a simple refusal to make the attempt. The operators >consider it easier to put "no 000" in the customer contracts ... The VoIP I registered for made a point explaining they needed my physical address for emergency calls. This doesn't seem such a burden for the VoIP supplier, all it takes is a few extra fields on the registration form. Australia has one national emergency number system so it should be easy for the VoIP supplier to support (in the USA emergency calls seem to be handled by each local government). Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 http://www.tomw.net.au PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 Visiting Fellow, Computer Science, Australian National University From Markus.Buchhorn at anu.edu.au Thu May 26 09:46:24 2005 From: Markus.Buchhorn at anu.edu.au (Markus Buchhorn) Date: Thu May 26 09:47:06 2005 Subject: [LINK] novel use for google maps In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20050525203420.01ec2b60@popa.melbpc.org.au> References: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72F42E63@cal066.act.gov.au> <42930930.7090606@interweft.com.au> <42939E1F.3050402@ozemail.com.au> <6.1.0.6.2.20050525122849.02e68ec0@acsys.anu.edu.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050525203420.01ec2b60@popa.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20050526092358.02c06250@acsys.anu.edu.au> At 08:36 PM 25/05/2005 +1000, Jan Whitaker wrote: >I also just did one for Canberra from my place [yes, guys, I'm coming back; dinner 10 June?] and it had tolls or no tolls. I tried both and got the same instructions both ways, even though there is a toll and non-toll option for me. Tolls both times, or non-tolls both times? The first would be a bug :-) The second probably reflects the 'only-the-fastest' option, which trades "speed" (limits) against distance, and that comes down to exactly where you are. I'd like to be able to give these systems an option of 'no less than 1km on any one road, as far as possible', or 'no more than 8 turns on the whole trip' :-) (a "fewest turns" option perhaps?). There was a story from the UK a year back of a person who (following a severe car accident) could not deal with right-hand turns - so they navigated everywhere with only left turns, sometimes dramatically increasing the distance travelled. Haven't seen that option on any route calculator... I'm not sure I could even get off the ANU campus with that constraint! >I also wanted to come back through Cooma, that is complete the loop, and there was no way to do that. I had to do a Canberra/Cooma and then Cooma/Berwick to get that route. Yeah - the link from the top suggests it's 'now with waypoints!' but I couldn't see anyway of adding them. There's another routing engine on the visitvictoria web site, but that site seems to be broken at the moment. Markus From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au Thu May 26 09:54:49 2005 From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee) Date: Thu May 26 09:54:58 2005 Subject: [LINK] novel use for google maps In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20050526092358.02c06250@acsys.anu.edu.au> References: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72F42E63@cal066.act.gov.au> <42930930.7090606@interweft.com.au> <42939E1F.3050402@ozemail.com.au> <6.1.0.6.2.20050525122849.02e68ec0@acsys.anu.edu.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050525203420.01ec2b60@popa.melbpc.org.au> <6.1.0.6.2.20050526092358.02c06250@acsys.anu.edu.au> Message-ID: <20050525235449.GB25427@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> Markus Buchhorn wrote: > Tolls both times, or non-tolls both times? The first would be a bug > :-) The second probably reflects the 'only-the-fastest' option, which > trades "speed" (limits) against distance, and that comes down to > exactly where you are. > > I'd like to be able to give these systems an option of 'no less than > 1km on any one road, as far as possible', or 'no more than 8 turns on > the whole trip' :-) (a "fewest turns" option perhaps?). You should also be able to say "driving costs me X cents/kilometre in petrol and wear and tear, and my time is worth Y dollars/hour -- please evaluate toll roads accordingingly :-). Danny. ---------------------------------------------------------- http://dannyreviews.com/ - over eight hundred book reviews http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog ---------------------------------------------------------- From rick at praxis.com.au Thu May 26 10:13:07 2005 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Thu May 26 10:13:38 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: BitTorrent crackdown underway: Raids by FBI, Customs Message-ID: <42951493.4080608@praxis.com.au> Hello Linkers, Looks like a repeat of the Gnutella crackdowns of a few years back. I believe the designers of BitTorrent assumed they were above the law since no one individual user or server stored an entire (copyrighted) work. Rather, little bits and pieces of an object, be it a movie, mp3, whatever, are stored and transfered piecemeal under the direction of BitTorrent servers and their clients. That assumption will be tested soon in the courts. IMHO, the BitTorrent scheme of breaking content into little pieces and sharing those pieces around is very similar to packet switching a la TCP/IP. The law probably does not care what happens to a copyright work while in transit ... chop it into a billion pieces and reassemble it if you wish. What matters is that, say, Star Wars III existed in its entire form at the server end at one time and it eventually exists in that same form on a client. IANAL, but even possessing a small unlicenced piece of copyrighted material (say a 2 minute clip from a movie) is still considered a copyright violation under the law. Arguing to absurdity, if the hex byte 0xFE is found in the digital version of Star Wars III, and I have a copy of that byte .... nah, I'll stop now. In the battlecry below, we see the tired old phrasing "Internet pirates cost U.S. industry hundreds of billions of dollars in lost revenue every year ..." cheers rickw -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [Politech] BitTorrent crackdown underway: Raids by FBI, Customs [ip] Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 19:13:55 -0500 From: Declan McCullagh To: politech@politechbot.com FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CRM WEDNESDAY, MAY 25, 2005 (202) 514-2008 WWW.USDOJ.GOV TDD (202) 514-1888 FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT ANNOUNCES OPERATION D-ELITE, CRACKDOWN ON P2P PIRACY NETWORK First Criminal Enforcement Against BitTorrent Network Users WASHINGTON, D.C. - Acting Assistant Attorney General John C. Richter of the Criminal Division, Homeland Security Assistant Secretary for Immigration and Customs Enforcement Michael J. Garcia, and Assistant Director Louis M. Reigel of the FBI's Cyber Division today announced the first criminal enforcement action targeting individuals committing copyright infringement on peer-to-peer (P2P) networks using cutting edge file-sharing technology known as BitTorrent. This morning, agents of the FBI and U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) executed 10 search warrants across the United States against leading members of a technologically sophisticated P2P network known as Elite Torrents. Employing technology known as BitTorrent, the Elite Torrents network attracted more than 133,000 members and, in the last four months, allegedly facilitated the illegal distribution of more than 17,800 titles - including movies and software - which were downloaded 2.1 million times. In addition to executing 10 warrants, federal agents also took control of the main server that coordinated all file-sharing activity on the Elite Torrents network. Anyone attempting to log on to Elitetorrents.org today will receive the following message: "This Site Has been Permanently Shut Down by the Federal Bureau of Investigation and U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement." "Our goal is to shut down as much of this illegal operation as quickly as possible to stem the serious financial damage to the victims of this high-tech piracy - the people who labor to produce these copyrighted products," said Acting Assistant Attorney General Richter. "Today's crackdown sends a clear and unmistakable message to anyone involved in the online theft of copyrighted works that they cannot hide behind new technology." "Internet pirates cost U.S. industry hundreds of billions of dollars in lost revenue every year from the illegal sale of copyrighted goods and new online file-sharing technologies make their job even easier," said Assistant Secretary Garcia. "Through today's landmark enforcement actions, ICE and the FBI have shut down a group of online criminals who were using legitimate technology to create one-stop shopping for the illegal sharing of movies, games, software and music." "The theft of copyrighted material is far from a victimless crime," said Assistant Director Reigel of the FBI. "When thieves steal this data, they are taking jobs away from hard workers in industry, which adversely impacts the U.S. economy. The FBI remains committed to working with our partners in law enforcement at all levels and private industry to identify and take action against those responsible." Building on the success of Operation Gridlock, a similar takedown announced by federal law enforcement last August that has already led to the felony convictions of three P2P copyright thieves, Operation D-Elite targeted the administrators and "first providers" or suppliers of copyrighted content to the Elite Torrents network. By utilizing BitTorrent, the newest generation of P2P technology, Elite Torrents members could download even the largest files - such as those associated with movies and software - far faster than was possible using more traditional P2P technology. The content selection available on the Elite Torrents network was virtually unlimited and often included illegal copies of copyrighted works before they were available in retail stores or movie theatres. For example, the final entry in the Star Wars series, "Episode III: Revenge of the Sith," was available for downloading on the network more than six hours before it was first shown in theatres. In the next 24 hours, it was downloaded more than 10,000 times. Operation D-Elite is being conducted jointly by ICE and the FBI as part of the Computer And Technology Crime High Tech Response Team (CATCH), a San Diego task force of specially trained prosecutors and law enforcement officers who focus on high-tech crime. Federal and state member agencies of CATCH include the ICE, the FBI, the Department of Justice, the San Diego District Attorney's Office, San Diego Police Department, the San Diego Sheriff's Department, and San Diego County Probation. Operation D-Elite was coordinated and will be prosecuted by the Justice Department's Computer Crime and Intellectual Property Section, with the assistance and support of Computer Hacking and Intellectual Property (CHIP) coordinators in San Diego and U.S. Attorneys' Offices in Arizona, Illinois, Kansas, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Texas, Virginia and Wisconsin. The Motion Picture Association of America provided valuable assistance to the investigation. ### 05-291 _______________________________________________ Politech mailing list Archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ Moderated by Declan McCullagh (http://www.mccullagh.org/) -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services "I drank what?" - Socrates, 399 BC From vicc at cia.com.au Thu May 26 10:47:57 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (DumbleBlum Haratio) Date: Thu May 26 10:49:11 2005 Subject: [LINK] Is Copyright Dead? Message-ID: <20050526004757.GA28889@cia.com.au> Is Copyright Dead? http://weblog.ipcentral.info/archives/2005/05/is_copyright_de.html From vicc at cia.com.au Thu May 26 10:52:48 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Moberific Discriminatum) Date: Thu May 26 10:53:59 2005 Subject: [LINK] Clandestine courtship via Bluetooth in the Persian Gulf Message-ID: <20050526005248.GA12023@cia.com.au> Clandestine courtship via Bluetooth in the Persian Gulf http://www.smartmobs.com/archive/2005/05/25/clandestine_cou.html From Fred.Pilcher at act.gov.au Thu May 26 11:16:07 2005 From: Fred.Pilcher at act.gov.au (Pilcher, Fred) Date: Thu May 26 11:16:45 2005 Subject: [LINK] novel use for google maps Message-ID: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72F42E76@cal066.act.gov.au> > I also just did one for Canberra from my place [yes, guys, > I'm coming back; dinner 10 June?] I've got it in my calendar, Jan - it'll be good to catch up. Do Canberra people want to ping me off-list about dinner? Fred ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If you are not the intended recipient: Please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From lannet at lannet.com.au Thu May 26 11:16:59 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Thu May 26 11:17:13 2005 Subject: [LINK] Invasion of privacy by email Message-ID: <4295238B.6010400@lannet.com.au> I have just taken to task a correspondent to a mailing list I manage. He utilises a service from msgtag.com that includes an image in the email that has an apparently unique identity which is intended to be downloaded by the recipient's email client when the message is read and hence have the download recorded in msgtag's logs, presumably for reporting back to the sender. I know that M$ email clients will respond to receipt requests, but they at least, ask the user if s/he wants to send a receipt. This system just gets the image without asking, except that I use Thunderbird which defaults to not fetching images, so I wasn't being reported. :) The email does say that the fact of reading has been reported to the sender by msgtag, so it's presence is not covert, but I have problems with the idea generally in as much as there is no option not to get the image other than by the configuration of the email client. I am wondering whether this is a legal breach of the Privacy Act. Would anyone care to comment. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From lannet at lannet.com.au Thu May 26 11:18:51 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Thu May 26 11:19:00 2005 Subject: [LINK] Is Copyright Dead? In-Reply-To: <20050526004757.GA28889@cia.com.au> References: <20050526004757.GA28889@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <429523FB.6080904@lannet.com.au> All replys to Comical Troll please :) DumbleBlum Haratio wrote: > Is Copyright Dead? > > http://weblog.ipcentral.info/archives/2005/05/is_copyright_de.html > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From vicc at cia.com.au Thu May 26 11:20:03 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Deus Stretch Machina) Date: Thu May 26 11:21:27 2005 Subject: [LINK] The dangers of "Headism" Message-ID: <20050526012003.GA11552@cia.com.au> The dangers of "Headism" A perspective on pareto concentration and value http://longtail.typepad.com/the_long_tail/2005/05/headism.html From link at todd.inoz.com Thu May 26 11:15:41 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Thu May 26 12:14:53 2005 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: BitTorrent crackdown underway: Raids by FBI, Customs In-Reply-To: <42951493.4080608@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050526110020.03a32ea0@wheresmymailserver.com> At 10:13 26/05/2005 +1000, Rick Welykochy wrote: >Looks like a repeat of the Gnutella crackdowns of a few years back. >I believe the designers of BitTorrent assumed they were above the law >since no one individual user or server stored an entire (copyrighted) >work. Well technically no one server (may have) has more than 5% :) So technically ... >Rather, little bits and pieces of an object, be it a movie, mp3, >whatever, are stored and transfered piecemeal under the direction of >BitTorrent servers and their clients. That assumption will be tested >soon in the courts. Will be interesting. I was thinking of using it as a distribution method! >IMHO, the BitTorrent scheme of breaking content into little pieces >and sharing those pieces around is very similar to packet switching >a la TCP/IP. TCP/IP does not packet switch. It streams from the Source to the destination via a routed path. ATM packet switches, sending broken bits and pieces via different paths and reconstructs them at the other end. >The law probably does not care what happens to a copyright >work while in transit ... chop it into a billion pieces and reassemble >it if you wish. TV, Satellite, some use parallel streaming methods to send material. >What matters is that, say, Star Wars III existed in >its entire form at the server end at one time and it eventually >exists in that same form on a client. IANAL, but even possessing >a small unlicenced piece of copyrighted material (say a 2 minute clip >from a movie) is still considered a copyright violation under the law. I agree. Unless it's been released for free distribution. >Arguing to absurdity, if the hex byte 0xFE is found in the digital >version of Star Wars III, and I have a copy of that byte .... nah, >I'll stop now. Yeah :) Good idea! But just wait, they might patent 0xFE now. >In the battlecry below, we see the tired old phrasing "Internet pirates >cost U.S. industry hundreds of billions of dollars in lost revenue every >year ..." I'm sorry. I STILL don't believe for a minute that piracy of movies costs an industry money, not to the extent and the manner in which they cry it. Being a Film Maker (now) and having piracy concerns ourselves, we see huge advantages in letting product out into the market place. I'll encode it in a lower resolution, lower sound quality (maybe mono 8 bit instead of stereo) and people can have as much as they want. A trial undertaken two years ago resulted in people downloading the film, burning it to VCD (I even supplied a BURN TO DVD or VCD package so people didn't have to encode it!) and watch. We encoded a series of interruptions into the material - it's only fair, and the result was that for every 7 downloads, we had 3 sales. Considering we didn't market it very hard, I thought that was pretty damn good! So we're actually working on creating downloadable images for DVD and VCD so people can literally burn the disks without processing the files and they have an instant full working copy of the film, the DVD, menus, bonus extras and all the other stuff. I also have a way to encourage people to purchase a full commercial version, with poster, properly printed cover, mini book and bonus DVD with other material on it. The only way to get the Bonus DVD is to buy the product. (Ok, sure it can be pirated, but people won't want to, they'll feel guilty! True!) We already know the BullDogs of the Music Industry have tried the "punish the end user" rather than the creator process. It's not only caused a backlash against the Record Companies with more and more people turning to independents than ever before, but it's affected their sales. Yes, their sales were affected AFTER their efforts to sue 12 year old girls for having 30 songs on their computers, not BEFORE. Given that music is a huge portion of our film making business, I'm dealing with several hundred independent artists from around the world. We're about to launch a series of FREE ring tones, downloadable for all phones and purely for promotion against the PAY FOR RINGTONE market which is dominated by the Record Companies. I've constantly heard from indie artists that their CD runs of 2000 are no longer sufficient to cope with the demand from consumers as their sales go UP because people want to BUY the CD, even if they have downloaded the MP3 and burnt it to CDR. Five years ago, indie artists use to tell me they had trouble selling 200 CD's over two years. Now they can't cope with the production run management and sales. They might not make a lot on each CD sale, but they ARE selling and these consumers are NOT buying Studio CDs. There is a "social" psychology at play here. Because indie artists work fro the love of the art, rather than the profits, people want to support them financially, by buying product and merchandise form the artists. The result is an increase in gross sales. I can see a high backlash starting to roll out over the next couple of years against the Motion Picture studios very similar. They might be trying to protect their product from piracy, but the more people they hurt and make public they have, and the more word and mouth that spreads about that hurting and punishment, the fewer people are going to rush to a cinema to see a film made by the Punisher. Many people are already turned off my mainstream films. Even the "Young" generation of 15-24 year olds who are the major cinema going demographic, have started to say "We're sick of the crap special effects, give us a story we can exist within." They'll add to that "protest against XYZ studio, they sued my best friend and we went and saw the movie twice!" Independent film makers will increase their market status over the coming years and gain more and more support from the audience, and the community. It's already started. It can only grow. From rick at praxis.com.au Thu May 26 12:47:51 2005 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Thu May 26 12:48:11 2005 Subject: [LINK] Stealth virus warning sounded again Message-ID: <429538D7.6070107@praxis.com.au> By Munir Kotadia, ZDNet Australia Published on ZDNet News: May 25, 2005, 6:08 AM PT Virus authors are choosing not to create global epidemics--such as Melissa or Blaster--because that distracts them from their core business of creating and selling botnets, according to antivirus experts. Botnets are groups of computers that have been infected by malware that allows the author to control the infected PCs, and then typically use them to send spam or launch DDoS attacks. Speaking at the AusCERT conference on Australia's Gold Coast on Tuesday, Eugene Kaspersky, founder of Kaspersky Labs, said that the influence of organised crime on the malware industry has led to a change of tactics, echoing comments made in March of this year by Mikko Hypp?nen of F-Secure. Instead of trying to create viruses and worms that infect as many computers as possible, malware authors are instead trying to infect 5,000 or 10,000 computers at a time to create personalized zombie armies. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Sloppy reportage. Generic "computers" are not being infected and used as spam slaves. Only Intel PCs running Windows software are the victims here. As was stated in an earlier Link thread: Just Say No To Windows. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services "I drank what?" - Socrates, 399 BC From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Thu May 26 13:22:52 2005 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Thu May 26 13:22:59 2005 Subject: [LINK] Quoting depth was - Fwd: (-: content blocker In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20050525220510.02ecfdd0@pop> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20050525163231.03b40008@wheresmymailserver.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20050525115920.02ec5af8@pop> <6.0.3.0.0.20050525090805.01fa6608@popa.melbpc.org.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050525090805.01fa6608@popa.melbpc.org.au> <5.1.0.14.0.20050525115920.02ec5af8@pop> <5.1.0.14.0.20050525163231.03b40008@wheresmymailserver.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20050525220510.02ecfdd0@pop> Message-ID: <9be28760961d828dc41eb58f8675aa88@tony-barry.emu.id.au> On 25 May 2005, at 10:05 PM, Adam Todd wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That's where Google Content Blocker comes in. It effectively >>>>>>>> blocks all Web site content, leaving only the advertisements. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>>> OK guys. Seven layers of quoting is getting a bit much. Welcome on unlink though. Tony phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Thu May 26 13:31:50 2005 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Thu May 26 13:31:59 2005 Subject: [LINK] novel use for google maps In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20050525203420.01ec2b60@popa.melbpc.org.au> References: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72F42E63@cal066.act.gov.au> <42930930.7090606@interweft.com.au> <42939E1F.3050402@ozemail.com.au> <6.1.0.6.2.20050525122849.02e68ec0@acsys.anu.edu.au> <6.0.3.0.0.20050525203420.01ec2b60@popa.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <58b08a548b14890f52ec2a1c90f6c42d@tony-barry.emu.id.au> On 25 May 2005, at 8:36 PM, Jan Whitaker wrote: > I also wanted to come back through Cooma, that is complete the loop, > and there was no way to do that. I had to do a Canberra/Cooma and then > Cooma/Berwick to get that route. I did a Fisher to Ngunnawal (both suburbs of Canberra). There are three routes I regularly use depending on the traffic. It recommended a route I wouldn't use in a pink fit as it went through the centre of the city and the worse traffic and it is not even shorter I think and certainly slower. Tony phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From whassaname at gmail.com Thu May 26 13:39:34 2005 From: whassaname at gmail.com (Johann Kruse) Date: Thu May 26 13:39:40 2005 Subject: [LINK] Invasion of privacy by email In-Reply-To: <4295238B.6010400@lannet.com.au> References: <4295238B.6010400@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <7cb8694d05052520394bd5acc7@mail.gmail.com> On 5/26/05, Howard Lowndes wrote: > I know that M$ email clients will respond > to receipt requests, but they at least, ask the user if s/he wants to > send a receipt. This system just gets the image without asking, except > that I use Thunderbird which defaults to not fetching images, so I > wasn't being reported. :) It's actually the same with any recent MS email client - Outlook, Outlook Express and Hotmail (as well as the MSN Premium client etc) all default to not fetching images. From vicc at cia.com.au Thu May 26 15:12:57 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Deus Stretch Machina) Date: Thu May 26 15:14:13 2005 Subject: [LINK] Credit Card Holders in Georgia to Pilot "Blink" Cards Message-ID: <20050526051257.GA31823@cia.com.au> Credit Card Holders in Georgia to Pilot "Blink" Cards http://futurewire.blogspot.com/2005/05/credit-card-holders-in-georgia-to.html From rick at praxis.com.au Thu May 26 16:18:51 2005 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Thu May 26 16:19:01 2005 Subject: [LINK] Credit Card Holders in Georgia to Pilot "Blink" Cards In-Reply-To: <20050526051257.GA31823@cia.com.au> References: <20050526051257.GA31823@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <42956A4B.9050707@praxis.com.au> Deus Stretch Machina wrote: > Credit Card Holders in Georgia to Pilot "Blink" Cards > > http://futurewire.blogspot.com/2005/05/credit-card-holders-in-georgia-to.html Quotes: "it estimates that blink cards can shave 20 seconds off a typical transaction at a fast-food restaurant. ... It's a dynamic place where people are on the go." I guess getting to the loo 20 seconds quicker after eating septic junk food really is important. On a more serious note: how easy will it be for crims to create hidden scanners in walls, kiosks, etc. that grab you c-card details and initiate transactions using those? cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services "I drank what?" - Socrates, 399 BC From eric.scheid at ironclad.net.au Thu May 26 16:46:40 2005 From: eric.scheid at ironclad.net.au (Eric Scheid) Date: Thu May 26 16:47:24 2005 Subject: [LINK] Credit Card Holders in Georgia to Pilot "Blink" Cards In-Reply-To: <42956A4B.9050707@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: On 26/5/05 4:18 PM, "Rick Welykochy" wrote: > On a more serious note: how easy will it be for crims to create > hidden scanners in walls, kiosks, etc. that grab you c-card details > and initiate transactions using those? and don't think that they won't... witness the number of fake ATMs that have been installed, plus the skimmers/cams installed on real ATMs. An opportunity to effectively do the same without having a physical artefact in sight is very tempting. Due to range considerations I'm not sure they'll bother with kiosks/walls/etc. Much easier to simply install the requisite gear in a backpack and then walk through a congested crowd - plenty of opportunity to get the scanner close enough. Think of it as pick-pocketing without the necessity of actually putting sticky fingers into actual pockets. Feh. Time to buy a glomesh handbag :-) * e. * has anyone actually tested the RFID blocking capability of a glomesh handbag? Something for the Ignobles or Mythbusters perhaps? From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Thu May 26 16:54:29 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Thu May 26 16:54:33 2005 Subject: [LINK] Credit Card Holders in Georgia to Pilot "Blink" Cards Message-ID: <20050526065429.KOPF29550.swebmail01.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> > I guess getting to the loo 20 seconds quicker after eating > septic junk food really is important. > > On a more serious note: how easy will it be for crims to create > hidden scanners in walls, kiosks, etc. that grab you c-card details > and initiate transactions using those? Not easy. There's a post from yours truly last week about the difference between RF propagation and EM coupling, which is what "near field" cards use. Yes, I dislike RFID, but not on this scenario. (Now just wait. Somebody's going to tell me, "yes but it will get smaller and more powerful. Grab the calculator FIRST, because I'm loading up Clue Cannon right now...) RC This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Thu May 26 18:21:02 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Thu May 26 18:21:05 2005 Subject: [LINK] Invasion of privacy by email In-Reply-To: <4295238B.6010400@lannet.com.au> References: <4295238B.6010400@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <429586EE.3040706@ozemail.com.au> Howard Lowndes wrote: > I have just taken to task a correspondent to a mailing list I manage. > > He utilises a service from msgtag.com that includes an image in the > email that has an apparently unique identity which is intended to be > downloaded by the recipient's email client when the message is read > and hence have the download recorded in msgtag's logs, presumably for > reporting back to the sender. I know that M$ email clients will > respond to receipt requests, but they at least, ask the user if s/he > wants to send a receipt. This system just gets the image without > asking, except that I use Thunderbird which defaults to not fetching > images, so I wasn't being reported. :) > > The email does say that the fact of reading has been reported to the > sender by msgtag, so it's presence is not covert, but I have problems > with the idea generally in as much as there is no option not to get > the image other than by the configuration of the email client. > > I am wondering whether this is a legal breach of the Privacy Act. > Would anyone care to comment. I really don't know about the Privacy Act. Putting Web bugs in HTML e-mail has been misused for this purpose for some time - I recall that in about 2003, Westpac put it in a security warning, of all things. Really stupid. RC > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Link mailing list >Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > > From link at todd.inoz.com Thu May 26 20:54:13 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Thu May 26 21:04:28 2005 Subject: [LINK] Credit Card Holders in Georgia to Pilot "Blink" Cards In-Reply-To: <42956A4B.9050707@praxis.com.au> References: <20050526051257.GA31823@cia.com.au> <20050526051257.GA31823@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050526205259.03a20d08@wheresmymailserver.com> >>Credit Card Holders in Georgia to Pilot "Blink" Cards >>http://futurewire.blogspot.com/2005/05/credit-card-holders-in-georgia-to.html > >Quotes: "it estimates that blink cards can shave 20 seconds > off a typical transaction at a fast-food restaurant. > ... > It's a dynamic place where people are on the go." > >I guess getting to the loo 20 seconds quicker after eating >septic junk food really is important. Oh come on. You know that's raw sh!t! >On a more serious note: how easy will it be for crims to create >hidden scanners in walls, kiosks, etc. that grab you c-card details >and initiate transactions using those? Oh peanuts! I've made a cool device that plugs onto my mobile phone, running Java, it can either FOOL or read RFID devices and readers. Quite interesting seeing how many people walk around with RFID's on their person. Ok sure, they have to be within about 3 feet, but in a crowded food court, walking around is damn easy and who suspects a person playing with a mobile phone or PDA these days? (Just don't take photos!) Yeah I was bored, but it was so damn simple to make the receiver and transmitter! I also find it amazing how many people use Bluebook and leave it active and insecure. Just driving down the Pirincess Highway the other day I was at a Red light, decided to turn on my Bluetooth scanner, found 43 devices. Chose one, took it over and discovered it was a guy three cars in front talking to some chick. Very interesting. I'm writing a Bluetooth "voice chat" program presently and hope to have it ready for wide distribution soon! You'll be able to use your mobile to speak and contact anyone within 10 meters! WoohooO! Check out the chicks man! From stephen at melbpc.org.au Fri May 27 01:19:52 2005 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley) Date: Fri May 27 01:20:07 2005 Subject: [LINK] VoIP supplier support for Triple Zero In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050523162636.01d7b268@fastmail.fm> References: <20050518013846.BAMV8920.swebmail00.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <428B7B9B.1060809@melbpc.org.au> <428BBFBD.3070909@lannet.com.au> <428C4B88.8010602@ozemail.com.au> <6.2.1.2.0.20050523162636.01d7b268@fastmail.fm> Message-ID: <4295E918.20904@melbpc.org.au> Tom wrote: > The VoIP I registered for made a point explaining they needed > my physical address for emergency calls. This doesn't seem such > a burden for the VoIP supplier, all it takes is a few extra fields on the > registration form. Australia has one national emergency number system > so it should be easy for the VoIP supplier to support\ .. > > Tom Worthington FACS HLM > tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Well said Tom, and surely this Aus commmunications provider would already have emergency service obligations under Aus telecommunications legislation? Triple Zero over VoIP should work. Regards Link Stephen Loosley Melbourne, Australia From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Fri May 27 07:41:46 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Fri May 27 07:41:50 2005 Subject: [LINK] VoIP supplier support for Triple Zero In-Reply-To: <4295E918.20904@melbpc.org.au> References: <20050518013846.BAMV8920.swebmail00.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <428B7B9B.1060809@melbpc.org.au> <428BBFBD.3070909@lannet.com.au> <428C4B88.8010602@ozemail.com.au> <6.2.1.2.0.20050523162636.01d7b268@fastmail.fm> <4295E918.20904@melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <4296429A.9090604@ozemail.com.au> Stephen Loosley wrote: > Tom wrote: > >> The VoIP I registered for made a point explaining they needed >> my physical address for emergency calls. This doesn't seem such >> a burden for the VoIP supplier, all it takes is a few extra fields on >> the >> registration form. Australia has one national emergency number system >> so it should be easy for the VoIP supplier to support\ .. >> >> Tom Worthington FACS HLM >> tom.worthington@tomw.net.au > > > Well said Tom, and surely this Aus commmunications provider would already > have emergency service obligations under Aus telecommunications > legislation? > > Triple Zero over VoIP should work. It does, subject to the caveats that Glen pointed out in an earlier post. There are other issues, though. From a regulatory point of view, because VoIP is seen as a second service, it's been decided that VoIP is not a requirement; so most providers don't bother. The other issue is the cost burden (notional or real). VoIP providers mostly buy termination from international minutes brokers; hence every call is a "0011" prefix (which may be made transparent by the client, or not, depending on who you use). Since 000 calls have to be free, you end up paying for a call but not being able to charge for it. [Caveat: some VoIP providers are full carriers buying local interconnect, and running both local termination and international brokerage. They're in the minority; VoIP in this case inherits local termination because the company already had a carrier license and interconnect.] RC > > Regards Link > Stephen Loosley > Melbourne, Australia > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > From lannet at lannet.com.au Fri May 27 07:53:30 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Fri May 27 07:53:46 2005 Subject: [LINK] VoIP supplier support for Triple Zero In-Reply-To: <4295E918.20904@melbpc.org.au> References: <20050518013846.BAMV8920.swebmail00.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <428B7B9B.1060809@melbpc.org.au> <428BBFBD.3070909@lannet.com.au> <428C4B88.8010602@ozemail.com.au> <6.2.1.2.0.20050523162636.01d7b268@fastmail.fm> <4295E918.20904@melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <4296455A.1030509@lannet.com.au> Stephen Loosley wrote: > Tom wrote: > >> The VoIP I registered for made a point explaining they needed >> my physical address for emergency calls. This doesn't seem such >> a burden for the VoIP supplier, all it takes is a few extra fields on the >> registration form. Australia has one national emergency number system >> so it should be easy for the VoIP supplier to support\ .. >> >> Tom Worthington FACS HLM >> tom.worthington@tomw.net.au > > > Well said Tom, and surely this Aus commmunications provider would already > have emergency service obligations under Aus telecommunications > legislation? > > Triple Zero over VoIP should work. There could be a confict with the Privacy Act here. There would need to be controls so that location information was not improperly used. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From link at todd.inoz.com Fri May 27 11:54:07 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Fri May 27 12:02:45 2005 Subject: [LINK] VoIP supplier support for Triple Zero In-Reply-To: <4295E918.20904@melbpc.org.au> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050523162636.01d7b268@fastmail.fm> <20050518013846.BAMV8920.swebmail00.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <428B7B9B.1060809@melbpc.org.au> <428BBFBD.3070909@lannet.com.au> <428C4B88.8010602@ozemail.com.au> <6.2.1.2.0.20050523162636.01d7b268@fastmail.fm> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050527114311.03adf018@wheresmymailserver.com> At 01:19 27/05/2005 +1000, Stephen Loosley wrote: >Tom wrote: > >>The VoIP I registered for made a point explaining they needed >>my physical address for emergency calls. This doesn't seem such >>a burden for the VoIP supplier, all it takes is a few extra fields on the >>registration form. Australia has one national emergency number system >>so it should be easy for the VoIP supplier to support\ .. >>Tom Worthington FACS HLM >>tom.worthington@tomw.net.au > >Well said Tom, and surely this Aus commmunications provider would already >have emergency service obligations under Aus telecommunications legislation? I gota ask. What if I'm using VoIP with my laptop and I'm at a friends house or a location and someone uses that phone to make a 000 call that for some reason, I dunno, the building explodes the power fails and the lines get cut off. The emergency services turn up 300km's in the wrong place? Addresses required for such things in my view is bogus! I had an argument - and won - with a mobile phone company who said they have to have my address on their records in case I made an emergency call and the call dropped out. I said, what if I'm not in my home, in a different state and make that same call - will the emergency services go to my registered address? They retired the debate and didn't ask me for my address :) Are people really this thick? Both asking the question and giving the reason and actually answering it? Speaking of thick, and bad policies, training and such. The other day we sent of our birth registration for our daughter. My WIFE gets a call on her mobile from Births Deaths and Marriages, even though *I* filled in the form and provided my number as the primary contact. They asked her a stack of questions to which she quickly handed the phone to me. I mean honestly the poor mother has a crying baby and you're trying to get sense out of her! Anyway, the reluctant clerk asked me where the "hospital" sticker was. I said what hospital. She said where the baby was born. I said, the form indicated a home birth, no sticker sorry. She said didn't we go to the hospital after the birth? I said there was no reason to. She asked if our doctor could issue a certificate. I said what doctor? We haven't had a doctor in two years. She said who looked after my wife whilst she was pregnant, I said we did. She said what about a midwife. I said the midwife arrived two days later for a quick look over. She asked who delivered the baby, I said I did. She said she can't register the child because there was no witness. I said I was a witness, I saw watch the baby come out from between my wife's legs. She said that's not good enough. By this time I was rather bemused. I'd hate to be crossing the desert on a h9liday with a pregnant wife and have a baby in the middle of no-where if this is how one gets treated! (Actually I recon the desert birth would be bloody unreal!) She then asked me if our Doctor saw her during the pregnancy and maybe could write a certificate. I said, already answered that one, we don't have a doctor and anyway, if we saw a Doctor at 1 month, he notes wife is pregnant and then a month later wife miscarries, but we don't see doctor again. We send in registration, you ask for certificate, we call Doctor say we've had baby and can he just issue a certificate that we saw him on DATE and that wife was pregnant, you'd accept that. She was stunned and couldn't answer. No wonder there are so many fake births being registered, it's so damn easy to create the deception, but if you are honest, you won't be believed! And who gets chased and harassed - the innocent, whilst he fraudsters and guilty get to play again and again! I think too often people are being asked to give information that isn't required and being collected under a false pretence. This is allowing people to create an understanding of what is required to defraud the processes and hence they do it. Even Centerlink refuses to accept, even with the baby in my arms, that I have a baby! We can't get that famous baby bonus because we can't prove we had a baby! I guess that means there'll be one more child growing up in society without an identity - not that I care - I now know how to create a false identity for her when the time comes :) And yes Jan, now they REALLY will be after me ;) From vicc at cia.com.au Fri May 27 12:17:10 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Deus Standing Machina) Date: Fri May 27 12:18:26 2005 Subject: [LINK] The Open Source Heretic Message-ID: <20050527021710.GA937@cia.com.au> you may have to skip the add to read the article. http://www.forbes.com/execpicks/2005/05/26/cz_dl_0526linux.html some quotes "One problem with the services model is that it is based on the idea that you are giving customers crap--because if you give them software that works, what is the point of service?" McVoy says. "The other problem is that the services model doesn't generate enough revenue to support the creation of the next generation of innovative products. Red Hat has been around for a long time--for a decade now. Yet try to name one significant thing--one innovative product--that has come out of Red Hat." ... "It costs a huge amount of money to develop a single innovative software product. You have to have a business model that will let you recoup those costs. These arguments are exceedingly unpopular. Everyone wants everything to be free. They say, 'You're an evil corporate guy, and you don't get it.' But I'm not evil. I'm well-known in the open source community. But none of them can show me how to build a software-development house and fund it off open source revenue. My claim is it can't be done." .... And though open source software may be "free," sometimes you get what you pay for, McVoy says. "Open source software is like handing you a doctor's bag and the architectural plans for a hospital and saying, 'Hey dude, if you have a heart attack, here are all the tools you need--and it's free,'" McVoy says. "I'd rather pay someone to take care of me." ... McVoy argues that the open source phenomenon may appear to be sustainable but actually is being propped up by hardware makers who view open source code as a loss leader--something that will entice customers to buy their boxes. ... McVoy says he believes the software industry will reach some kind of balance between open source and traditional software companies. Open source companies will make commodity knockoffs and eke out tiny profits, while traditional "closed source" companies will develop innovative products and earn fatter profits. Heretical as this may seem, McVoy wants to be on the side that innovates and makes money. From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au Fri May 27 12:47:15 2005 From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee) Date: Fri May 27 12:47:23 2005 Subject: [LINK] The Open Source Heretic In-Reply-To: <20050527021710.GA937@cia.com.au> References: <20050527021710.GA937@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <20050527024714.GC2541@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> Deus Standing Machina wrote: > Heretical as this may seem, McVoy wants to be on the side that innovates > and makes money. I think I'd agree that smaller companies tend to be more innovative than larger ones. But the "making money" argument is a furphy. Redhat is a NASDAQ-listed company with a market capitalisation of several billion. You're usually the first to appeal to some form of the Efficient Market Hypothesis, so you should accept that that's proof they're doing something right! Danny. ---------------------------------------------------------- http://dannyreviews.com/ - over eight hundred book reviews http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog ---------------------------------------------------------- From lannet at lannet.com.au Fri May 27 12:54:00 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Fri May 27 12:54:13 2005 Subject: [LINK] Personalised scam spam Message-ID: <42968BC8.4080908@lannet.com.au> I have just received a personalised scam spam email. They got the name right and they got the snail mail address almost right - well it was right 40 months ago :) I did read somewhere (probably in El Reg) that the scammers were getting smarter, so it looks like the result are now being disseminated. -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From brendansweb at optusnet.com.au Fri May 27 13:01:05 2005 From: brendansweb at optusnet.com.au (Brendan Scott) Date: Fri May 27 13:00:46 2005 Subject: [LINK] The Open Source Heretic In-Reply-To: <20050527021710.GA937@cia.com.au> References: <20050527021710.GA937@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <42968D71.50501@optusnet.com.au> Ah yes, the inimitable Dan Lyons. I think everyone in the open source community is all too familiar with Dan's agenda. A little less ideology a little more facts would be nice. Perhaps next time you might quote from a vaguely authoritative source? Brendan Deus Standing Machina wrote: > you may have to skip the add to read the article. > > http://www.forbes.com/execpicks/2005/05/26/cz_dl_0526linux.html > > some quotes > > "One problem with the services model is that it is based on the idea > that you are giving customers crap--because if you give them software > that works, what is the point of service?" McVoy says. "The other > problem is that the services model doesn't generate enough revenue to > support the creation of the next generation of innovative products. Red > Hat has been around for a long time--for a decade now. Yet try to name > one significant thing--one innovative product--that has come out of Red > Hat." > > ... > > "It costs a huge amount of money to develop a single innovative software > product. You have to have a business model that will let you recoup > those costs. These arguments are exceedingly unpopular. Everyone wants > everything to be free. They say, 'You're an evil corporate guy, and you > don't get it.' But I'm not evil. I'm well-known in the open source > community. But none of them can show me how to build a > software-development house and fund it off open source revenue. My claim > is it can't be done." > > .... > > And though open source software may be "free," sometimes you get what > you pay for, McVoy says. "Open source software is like handing you a > doctor's bag and the architectural plans for a hospital and saying, 'Hey > dude, if you have a heart attack, here are all the tools you need--and > it's free,'" McVoy says. "I'd rather pay someone to take care of me." > ... > > McVoy argues that the open source phenomenon may appear to be > sustainable but actually is being propped up by hardware makers who view > open source code as a loss leader--something that will entice customers > to buy their boxes. > > ... > > McVoy says he believes the software industry will reach some kind of > balance between open source and traditional software companies. Open > source companies will make commodity knockoffs and eke out tiny profits, > while traditional "closed source" companies will develop innovative > products and earn fatter profits. > > Heretical as this may seem, McVoy wants to be on the side that innovates > and makes money. From vicc at cia.com.au Fri May 27 13:06:54 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Deus Ex Machina) Date: Fri May 27 13:08:06 2005 Subject: [LINK] The Open Source Heretic In-Reply-To: <20050527024714.GC2541@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> References: <20050527021710.GA937@cia.com.au> <20050527024714.GC2541@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <20050527030654.GA10085@cia.com.au> Danny Yee [danny@anatomy.usyd.edu.au] wrote: > Deus Standing Machina wrote: > > Heretical as this may seem, McVoy wants to be on the side that innovates > > and makes money. > > I think I'd agree that smaller companies tend to be more innovative > than larger ones. > > But the "making money" argument is a furphy. Redhat is a NASDAQ-listed > company with a market capitalisation of several billion. You're > usually the first to appeal to some form of the Efficient Market > Hypothesis, so you should accept that that's proof they're doing > something right! Red Hat it still in the process of buying back shares which is a clear signal it cant meet profit targets. The main thrust of the article I agree with is that the service model sucks and that open source rarely innovates. anything that is innovative in open source, propriatery companies can copy for free. but not the other way around. imo there is not yet a good business model around open source, with FSF actively threatening to sue anyone using gpl in proprietary products there isnt likely to ever be one. Vic From rick at praxis.com.au Fri May 27 13:44:25 2005 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Fri May 27 13:44:49 2005 Subject: [LINK] The Open Source Heretic In-Reply-To: <20050527030654.GA10085@cia.com.au> References: <20050527021710.GA937@cia.com.au> <20050527024714.GC2541@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <20050527030654.GA10085@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <42969799.4000707@praxis.com.au> Deus Ex Thingymajig wrote: > The main thrust of the article I agree with is that the service model sucks > and that open source rarely innovates. anything that is innovative in > open source, propriatery companies can copy for free. but not the other way > around. The entire IT sector is a service industry. The resources required by an IT installation are predominantly individuals in a service/maintenance role. I cannot think of any business system that one just plugs in out of the box and it runs. And runs with zero admin, zero maintenance. Any TCO analysis you read indicates that software licencing costs are by far much smaller than ongoing service costs. And building systems from existing components? Huge amounts of $$$ spent there - I know, I make my living this way. As to open source not being innovative? I'll leave that ridiculous and totally unsupported statement to those who like feeding trolls. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services "I drank what?" - Socrates, 399 BC From marghanita at ramin.com.au Fri May 27 14:09:09 2005 From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz) Date: Fri May 27 14:06:01 2005 Subject: [LINK] The Open Source Heretic In-Reply-To: <20050527030654.GA10085@cia.com.au> References: <20050527021710.GA937@cia.com.au> <20050527024714.GC2541@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <20050527030654.GA10085@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <42969D65.7050109@ramin.com.au> Deus Ex Machina wrote: > imo there is not yet a good business model around open source, with FSF > actively threatening to sue anyone using gpl in proprietary products there isnt > likely to ever be one. I would suggest the success story of Open Source is Apache. Below are some snipits from www.apache.org there is plenty more about their business model on the site. > > The Apache Software Foundation provides support for the Apache community of open-source software projects. The Apache projects are characterized by a collaborative, consensus based development process, an open and pragmatic software license, and a desire to create high quality software that leads the way in its field. We consider ourselves not simply a group of projects sharing a server, but rather a community of developers and users. > > If you'd like to contribute financially to the foundation, we would greatly appreciate it. Currently, the bulk of our financial obligations are going towards providing our technical infrastructure - the servers and bandwidth that we require. The foundation also provides legal support for our projects, therefore, it is often required to obtain qualified legal counsel about issues that arise. Marghanita -- Marghanita da Cruz Consultant Telephone: 0414-869202 mailto:marghanita@ramin.com.au http://www.ramin.com.au Chair, ACS Governance of ICT Committee http://www.acs.org.au/governance From glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au Fri May 27 14:30:02 2005 From: glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au (Glen Turner) Date: Fri May 27 14:30:26 2005 Subject: [LINK] The Open Source Heretic In-Reply-To: <20050527021710.GA937@cia.com.au> References: <20050527021710.GA937@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <4296A24A.9090709@aarnet.edu.au> It didn't strike me as a particularly balanced article. I'd be cautious about claims about business models from McVoy. My personal experience is that the business side of his software operation is poorly thought out and poorly run. I actually licensed BitKeeper and it has been one of the silliest business transactions of my life. Cheers, Glen From glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au Fri May 27 14:46:23 2005 From: glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au (Glen Turner) Date: Fri May 27 14:46:48 2005 Subject: [LINK] The Open Source Heretic In-Reply-To: <20050527030654.GA10085@cia.com.au> References: <20050527021710.GA937@cia.com.au> <20050527024714.GC2541@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <20050527030654.GA10085@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <4296A61F.7020301@aarnet.edu.au> Deus Ex Machina wrote: > The main thrust of the article I agree with is that the service model sucks > and that open source rarely innovates. I really don't see how selection of a software license compulsorily controls innovation. If I GPL some software I have written am I suddenly less innovative? Also, I'm trying to think of an operating system that didn't use the open source BSD TCP/IP networking code as its original base. And then there's BIND and Sendmail, where the commercial products arrived later. Which I think would make a case for the commercial products being less innovative. And the web itself is a good argument, since there were many non-free hypertext predecessors. What the web had going for it was the free protocols and good free implementations which allowed network effects to grow. Ditto e-mail on the Internet. It seems to me there's a tension between: - recompense for effort, so that people can continue to put in the effort, which pushes in the direction of propietary software - allowing people to "stand on the shoulders of others" and allowing wide network effects, which pushes in the direction of open source software. Usually this tension is settled by legislators. If I write a book the Copyright Act controls many of the details of the use of the book. Where software differs is that, at the moment, a lot of the detail is settled by license or contract. You can see at the moment a lot of work occurring by both parties to ensure that future legislation doesn't preclude their particular licensing model. Universities are in an interesting position, since the question of which license to use for the software the uni's research creates requires a decision about the role of the university in society and in the economy. Cheers, Glen From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Fri May 27 14:51:00 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Fri May 27 14:51:48 2005 Subject: [LINK] Personalised scam spam In-Reply-To: <42968BC8.4080908@lannet.com.au> References: <42968BC8.4080908@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20050527144754.01ea3538@popa.melbpc.org.au> At 12:54 PM 27/05/2005, Howard wrote: >I have just received a personalised scam spam email. They got the name >right and they got the snail mail address almost right - well it was right >40 months ago :) > >I did read somewhere (probably in El Reg) that the scammers were getting >smarter, so it looks like the result are now being disseminated. > >-- I just had a guy call me through my APF listing about a similar thing. His complaint was that it contained real info about a trust he had set up, it came from Toronto Canada, he's in Queensland, and the info source given was from an outfit called Australian Local Search .com.au . He was concerned that the search company had his details without his consent and he wasn't able to get any contact with the company to complain. I sent him to the Office of the Privacy Commissioner to raise the issue with them. I've cc'd this message to the privacy discussion list as a heads up. Something may be brewing. Jan JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From vicc at cia.com.au Fri May 27 14:57:38 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Deus Ex Machina) Date: Fri May 27 14:58:49 2005 Subject: [LINK] The Open Source Heretic In-Reply-To: <42969D65.7050109@ramin.com.au> References: <20050527021710.GA937@cia.com.au> <20050527024714.GC2541@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <20050527030654.GA10085@cia.com.au> <42969D65.7050109@ramin.com.au> Message-ID: <20050527045738.GB10085@cia.com.au> Marghanita da Cruz [marghanita@ramin.com.au] wrote: > Deus Ex Machina wrote: > > >imo there is not yet a good business model around open source, with FSF > >actively threatening to sue anyone using gpl in proprietary products there > >isnt > >likely to ever be one. > > I would suggest the success story of Open Source is Apache. > > Below are some snipits from www.apache.org there is plenty more about > their business model on the site. > > > >The Apache Software Foundation provides support for the Apache community > >of open-source software projects. The Apache projects are characterized by > >a collaborative, consensus based development process, an open and > >pragmatic software license, and a desire to create high quality software > >that leads the way in its field. We consider ourselves not simply a group > >of projects sharing a server, but rather a community of developers and > >users. > > > >If you'd like to contribute financially to the foundation, we would > >greatly appreciate it. the charity model isnt a business model. Vic From brendansweb at optusnet.com.au Fri May 27 15:06:22 2005 From: brendansweb at optusnet.com.au (Brendan Scott) Date: Fri May 27 15:06:05 2005 Subject: [LINK] The Open Source Heretic In-Reply-To: <20050527030654.GA10085@cia.com.au> References: <20050527021710.GA937@cia.com.au> <20050527024714.GC2541@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <20050527030654.GA10085@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <4296AACE.3050305@optusnet.com.au> Deus Ex Machina wrote: > Danny Yee [danny@anatomy.usyd.edu.au] wrote: > >>Deus Standing Machina wrote: > > imo there is not yet a good business model around open source, with FSF > actively threatening to sue anyone using gpl in proprietary products there isnt > likely to ever be one. It never ceases to amaze me that people want to locate open source within its opposite. So let me make it clear to everyone. The reason open source has been successful to date is because customers have been screwed blind for 30 years and are sick of it. The proposition that the only furture for open source is to screw its customers in the way that closed source did is, frankly, on the wrong side of fantasy. If customers were content to continue to be screwed, open source wouldn't exist at all. Clothing what is essentially a welfare mentality (we need the government to create a system which permits us to screw you ... so we can innovate) in the language of intellectual "property" does not change this basic equation. Brendan From marghanita at ramin.com.au Fri May 27 15:38:20 2005 From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz) Date: Fri May 27 15:35:40 2005 Subject: [LINK] The Open Source Heretic In-Reply-To: <4296A61F.7020301@aarnet.edu.au> References: <20050527021710.GA937@cia.com.au> <20050527024714.GC2541@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <20050527030654.GA10085@cia.com.au> <4296A61F.7020301@aarnet.edu.au> Message-ID: <4296B24C.7050601@ramin.com.au> Glen Turner wrote: > Universities are in an interesting position, since the question of > which license to use for the software the uni's research creates > requires a decision about the role of the university in society > and in the economy. I thought the current metric was number of papers published in reputable journals. In which case, perhaps the metric for software development by a (tax payer funded) university should be number of users. Let's look at the funding of software development by the federal government, for example. If it were all open source and could be reused by all agencies this would be a huge saving. Money making is problematic for government funded institutions - it is usually comparable to the kids piggy bank in the house hold. Marghanita -- Marghanita da Cruz Consultant Telephone: 0414-869202 mailto:marghanita@ramin.com.au http://www.ramin.com.au Chair, ACS Governance of ICT Committee http://www.acs.org.au/governance From vicc at cia.com.au Fri May 27 16:00:09 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Deus Jumping Bean Machina) Date: Fri May 27 16:01:33 2005 Subject: [LINK] The Open Source Heretic In-Reply-To: <4296AACE.3050305@optusnet.com.au> References: <20050527021710.GA937@cia.com.au> <20050527024714.GC2541@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <20050527030654.GA10085@cia.com.au> <4296AACE.3050305@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20050527060009.GA29219@cia.com.au> Brendan Scott [brendansweb@optusnet.com.au] wrote: > Deus Ex Machina wrote: > >Danny Yee [danny@anatomy.usyd.edu.au] wrote: > > > >>Deus Standing Machina wrote: > > > > >imo there is not yet a good business model around open source, with FSF > >actively threatening to sue anyone using gpl in proprietary products there > >isnt > >likely to ever be one. > > It never ceases to amaze me that people want to locate open source within > its opposite. So let me make it clear to everyone. The reason open > source has been successful to date is because customers have been screwed > blind for 30 years and are sick of it. The proposition that the only > furture for open source is to screw its customers in the way that closed > source did is, frankly, on the wrong side of fantasy. If customers were > content to continue to be screwed, open source wouldn't exist at all. > > Clothing what is essentially a welfare mentality (we need the government to > create a system which permits us to screw you ... so we can innovate) in > the language of intellectual "property" does not change this basic > equation. if you have an inverse meaning of wealth then you would probably have that view. since I am using the common definition then maybe you might see a different point of view. Brendan if you think that open source is a panacea to monopolies or more correctly pareto distributions of market shares then you can go home. you loose. free open source CMSs have a power law distribution of market share. I have no doubts that other open source follow the same pattern. its in fact not the double dutch of government "subsidy", or "welfare mentality" or the protection of IP that creates pareto distributions, it doesnt even require money. I used to think it was capitalism that breeds monopolies. its not. its differentiation on the producer side and freedom of choice of the consumer side. doesnt even require money. the implications you need to think through for yourself. just some thoughts... Vic ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Official Card Carrying Member of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy From vicc at cia.com.au Fri May 27 16:17:56 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Deus Sitting Machina) Date: Fri May 27 16:19:07 2005 Subject: [LINK] Unstoppable? The Microsoft media juggernaut Message-ID: <20050527061756.GA24835@cia.com.au> interesting article on microsofts DRM plans Unstoppable? The Microsoft media juggernaut http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=1381&tag=nl.e539 From Ian.MacIntosh at industry.gov.au Fri May 27 16:58:44 2005 From: Ian.MacIntosh at industry.gov.au (MacIntosh, Ian) Date: Fri May 27 16:59:38 2005 Subject: [LINK] Personalised scam spam [UNCLASSIFIED] Message-ID: <8C412FCD851DA446A191EC7AE5CBB1992562CE@ac01wmsg02.in.industry.gov.au> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED// OK, I went to their website and out of interest put in a small company that I know about. It came up. So far so good. One of the links on the page is "Update this entry". This brings up a form (free entry at the top and "Priority" [=paid] at the bottom). I could then have entered bogus information about that company and submitted it (????????) Obviously being a good corporate citizen I did not do that :-) Not that I think this site is worth using as a source for company info but it would be easy to sabotage a competitor. Food for thought... Ian -----Original Message----- ************************************************************************* The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments to it, is intended for the use of the addressee and is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, read, forward, copy or retain any of the information. If you received this e-mail in error, please delete it and notify the sender by return e-mail or telephone. The Commonwealth does not warrant that any attachments are free from viruses or any other defects. You assume all liability for any loss, damage or other consequences which may arise from opening or using the attachments. ************************************************************************* From: link-bounces@anumail0.anu.edu.au [mailto:link-bounces@anumail0.anu.edu.au] On Behalf Of Jan Whitaker Sent: Friday, 27 May 2005 2:51 PM To: link@anu.edu.au Cc: privacy@lists.efa.org.au Subject: Re: [LINK] Personalised scam spam At 12:54 PM 27/05/2005, Howard wrote: >I have just received a personalised scam spam email. They got the name >right and they got the snail mail address almost right - well it was right >40 months ago :) > >I did read somewhere (probably in El Reg) that the scammers were getting >smarter, so it looks like the result are now being disseminated. > >-- I just had a guy call me through my APF listing about a similar thing. His complaint was that it contained real info about a trust he had set up, it came from Toronto Canada, he's in Queensland, and the info source given was from an outfit called Australian Local Search .com.au . He was concerned that the search company had his details without his consent and he wasn't able to get any contact with the company to complain. I sent him to the Office of the Privacy Commissioner to raise the issue with them. I've cc'd this message to the privacy discussion list as a heads up. Something may be brewing. Jan JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ _______________________________________________ Link mailing list Link@mailman.anu.edu.au http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link From brendansweb at optusnet.com.au Fri May 27 17:12:50 2005 From: brendansweb at optusnet.com.au (Brendan Scott) Date: Fri May 27 17:12:36 2005 Subject: [LINK] The Open Source Heretic In-Reply-To: <20050527060009.GA29219@cia.com.au> References: <20050527021710.GA937@cia.com.au> <20050527024714.GC2541@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <20050527030654.GA10085@cia.com.au> <4296AACE.3050305@optusnet.com.au> <20050527060009.GA29219@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <4296C872.6020707@optusnet.com.au> Deus Jumping Bean Machina wrote: > Brendan Scott [brendansweb@optusnet.com.au] wrote: > >>Deus Ex Machina wrote: >> >>>Danny Yee [danny@anatomy.usyd.edu.au] wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Deus Standing Machina wrote: >> >>>imo there is not yet a good business model around open source, with FSF >>>actively threatening to sue anyone using gpl in proprietary products there >>>isnt >>>likely to ever be one. >> >>It never ceases to amaze me that people want to locate open source within >>its opposite. So let me make it clear to everyone. The reason open >>source has been successful to date is because customers have been screwed >>blind for 30 years and are sick of it. The proposition that the only >>furture for open source is to screw its customers in the way that closed >>source did is, frankly, on the wrong side of fantasy. If customers were >>content to continue to be screwed, open source wouldn't exist at all. >> >>Clothing what is essentially a welfare mentality (we need the government to >>create a system which permits us to screw you ... so we can innovate) in >>the language of intellectual "property" does not change this basic >>equation. > > > if you have an inverse meaning of wealth then you would probably have > that view. since I am using the common definition then maybe you might > see a different point of view. > > Brendan if you think that open source is a panacea to monopolies or more > correctly pareto distributions of market shares then you can go home. > > you loose. > > free open source CMSs have a power law distribution of market share. I have > no doubts that other open source follow the same pattern. its in > fact not the double dutch of government "subsidy", or "welfare > mentality" or the protection of IP that creates pareto distributions, > it doesnt even require money. > > I used to think it was capitalism that breeds monopolies. its not. its > differentiation on the producer side and freedom of choice of the > consumer side. doesnt even require money. > > the implications you need to think through for yourself. > > just some thoughts... Essentially, the reason the argument is wrong is that it boils down to this: The long term future for open source is closed source. Which is a nonsense (open source must provide benefits over closed source otherwise the market wouldn't shift in the first place and, having those benefits, it's not going to shift back). Why this is so difficult to understand by so many commentators, I do not know. It may be that they are shills, but I suspect it has more to do with 200 years of propaganda about the benefits of copyright and the widespread internalisation of the view that governments should intervene in and destroy markets for ideas in order to save them. Open source is about introducing competition into a market which badly needs it. The beauty of open source is that it is an overlay on top of a regulatory regime which simply lets the market sidestep the worst aspects of that regime. The likely reason that people can't get their heads around open source is that they are wedded to the welfare mentality of copyright and feel lost when faced with competitive realities. If any of the statements which are made in support of this regulatory regime were made in respect of any other area of the economy they would be laughed out of town (every economic activity has front loaded costs). The reality is innovation occurs better in free markets, not wrecked markets. Brendan From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Fri May 27 18:28:58 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Fri May 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: [LINK] Personalised scam spam [UNCLASSIFIED] In-Reply-To: <8C412FCD851DA446A191EC7AE5CBB1992562CE@ac01wmsg02.in.industry.gov.au> References: <8C412FCD851DA446A191EC7AE5CBB1992562CE@ac01wmsg02.in.industry.gov.au> Message-ID: <4296DA4A.70202@ozemail.com.au> My guess is that it may be "of interest" to Tels^h^h^h^h Sensis. After doing my own "what about this company?" check I have formed the opinion that at least some of the unsolicited entries come from the Yellow Pages... RC MacIntosh, Ian wrote: >Classification: UNCLASSIFIED// > >OK, > >I went to their website and out of interest put in a small company that >I know about. It came up. So far so good. > >One of the links on the page is "Update this entry". This brings up a >form (free entry at the top and "Priority" [=paid] at the bottom). I >could then have entered bogus information about that company and >submitted it (????????) Obviously being a good corporate citizen I did >not do that :-) > >Not that I think this site is worth using as a source for company info >but it would be easy to sabotage a competitor. > >Food for thought... > >Ian > > > >-----Original Message----- > >************************************************************************* >The information contained in this e-mail, and any attachments to it, >is intended for the use of the addressee and is confidential. If you >are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, read, >forward, copy or retain any of the information. If you received this >e-mail in error, please delete it and notify the sender by return >e-mail or telephone. > >The Commonwealth does not warrant that any attachments are free >from viruses or any other defects. You assume all liability for any >loss, damage or other consequences which may arise from opening >or using the attachments. >************************************************************************* > > >From: link-bounces@anumail0.anu.edu.au >[mailto:link-bounces@anumail0.anu.edu.au] On Behalf Of Jan Whitaker >Sent: Friday, 27 May 2005 2:51 PM >To: link@anu.edu.au >Cc: privacy@lists.efa.org.au >Subject: Re: [LINK] Personalised scam spam > > >At 12:54 PM 27/05/2005, Howard wrote: > > > >>I have just received a personalised scam spam email. They got the name >>right and they got the snail mail address almost right - well it was >> >> >right > > >>40 months ago :) >> >>I did read somewhere (probably in El Reg) that the scammers were >> >> >getting > > >>smarter, so it looks like the result are now being disseminated. >> >>-- >> >> > >I just had a guy call me through my APF listing about a similar thing. >His >complaint was that it contained real info about a trust he had set up, >it >came from Toronto Canada, he's in Queensland, and the info source given >was >from an outfit called Australian Local Search .com.au . He was concerned >that the search company had his details without his consent and he >wasn't >able to get any contact with the company to complain. I sent him to the >Office of the Privacy Commissioner to raise the issue with them. > >I've cc'd this message to the privacy discussion list as a heads up. >Something may be brewing. > >Jan > > > >JLWhitaker Associates >Melbourne, Victoria, Australia >jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm > >'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there >is >no plant.' - JW, April 2005 >_ __________________ _ > >_______________________________________________ >Link mailing list >Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > > > >_______________________________________________ >Link mailing list >Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > > > From vicc at cia.com.au Fri May 27 23:07:41 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Deus Ex Maximus) Date: Fri May 27 23:08:53 2005 Subject: the arguments summarised was Re: [LINK] The Open Source Heretic In-Reply-To: <4296C872.6020707@optusnet.com.au> References: <20050527021710.GA937@cia.com.au> <20050527024714.GC2541@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <20050527030654.GA10085@cia.com.au> <4296AACE.3050305@optusnet.com.au> <20050527060009.GA29219@cia.com.au> <4296C872.6020707@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20050527130741.GA16697@cia.com.au> Brendan Scott [brendansweb@optusnet.com.au] wrote: > shills, but I suspect it has more to do with 200 years of propaganda about > the benefits of copyright and the widespread internalisation of the view > that governments should intervene in and destroy markets for ideas in order > to save them. Open source is about introducing competition into a market > which badly needs it. The beauty of open source is that it is an overlay > on top of a regulatory regime which simply lets the market sidestep the > worst aspects of that regime. > The likely reason that people can't get their heads around open source is > that they are wedded to the welfare mentality of copyright and feel lost > when faced with competitive realities. If any of the statements which are > made in support of this regulatory regime were made in respect of any other > area of the economy they would be laughed out of town (every economic > activity has front loaded costs). The reality is innovation occurs better > in free markets, not wrecked markets. not true. you clearly havent understood what my position is or in fact what the "opposing" position is. this seems to be a problem with many "left wingers" they in fact have little to no understanding of what a "right wing" position actually is. I read both side now. in reference to the above and general summary: a) this regulatory regime does apply in all other areas, property rights are used to limit 2 competing sets of freedoms. be they virtual or physical. as far as I am concerned there is no real underlying difference between any ownership, land title, copyrights, patents and software patents. in your language they are all government granted "monopolies". in your world view they are all "subsidies" (even though no payment occurs). there is no real distinction between any types of property other then the subject matter and the specifics of implementation and the actual mechanics of that domain. b) property is a store of wealth. poverty is a lack of property. c) poverty is best tackled by increasing the wealth and property in society. d) under freedom, wealth will always concentrate, this concentration drives investment, jobs and progress and creates boundless opportunities for others to improve their conditions. e) people cant escape their material conditions so improving material conditions is mandatory. you dont have to agree that a-e are a good thing or bad thing but at least make an effort to understand why I think its a good thing. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- the dotcommunist and friends think that a) concentration of wealth is evil and must have come about by bad intentions. or at least mickeysoft is evil and produces shit. or some variation on that theme. b) concentrated wealth is exploitative and "fails" over to a monopoly. all monopolies are evil by definition. c) property rights are some evil restriction of freedom, perticularly of the have nots by the haves. if we remove these arbitrary gov granted boundaries we could all sing kumbaya and hold hands around the campfire for ever. or we can watch companies beat the crap out of each other without their gov sponsored fortresses and that will prevent pareto concentrations or create a more egalitarian outcome. d) creating vast free digital commons will aleviate poverty. or at least lead to a more egalitarian society or at least flaten those nasty pareto concentration. or redistribute stuff to the long tail more equitably. e) open source and gpl in perticular is means to thwart capitalism in the digital domain or a means to knock microsoft from its perch or some new all conquering business model where service trumps "pay for product", or the free stuff is a hook for the pay stuff. f) colaberation is superior to competition. as far as I am concerned all these "lefty" point are all dated thinking. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- a) pareto concentrations occurs irrespective of capitalism it even occurs in free open source software. so that argument is false. intentions have nothing to do with pareto concentrations. the "goodness" or "badness" of a pareto concentration is entirely related to the ethics of the people behind them. b) there is nothing wrong with a monopoly, every business strives to find a monopoly niche. pareto concentrations will lead to a monopoly where there is insuficient innovation or margin to bother competing against an incumbant. its part of the lifecycle. c) property rights are democratic in that anyone can use them. the more people avail themselves of property rights the better off they are. wealthy people have discipline to invest a minimum percentage of income. around 90% of people dont have the discipline, me included "lefties" constantly fail to understand value and reward and why property works. to move from a "long tail" position to a pareto concentration you must be producing "real" value for others. the reality is the "long tail" creates a pareto concentration by the sumnation of its free choices. d) digital commons dont put food on the table. you cant go to your banker and get a mortgage on a digital commons. you can with "real" property. the free for all nature inherently limits what value can be monetised and extracted from a digital commons. ignoring standards since they occur with or without "lefty" commons. unless you are living in a commune, if you cant monetise something then it isnt putting food on your table. charity models are not good business models. while its nice to have all this "free" stuff all the usual legal requirements are externalised. so the real cost are well hidden. digital commons are a claitons property. its the property you have when you dont have any property. digital commons are a "long tail" fantasy. they codify a class of digital paupers. e) open source suffers from its open nature. if you havnt noticed microsoft is already ripping off all the good ideas from open source desktops and sticking them inside longhorn. on the other hand microsoft can patent new innovations and prevent them from appearing inside open source desktops. open source can never win. while we have seen only a few small hostile forks on a major FOSS product, its only a matter of time before there is a big example. linux has not made any inroads into the desktops because 99.99% of people couldnt care less about source. they cant read it, write it and wouldnt know what to do with it other then wallpaper the dunny with it. open source is a "geek" fantasy. open source is generally not customer focused or driven so the scope of products is often a poor fit for end users if it exists at all. the service models suffers in that you cant be aiming for "support free" software if you depend on support to put food on the table. the only people I can see making a living from suport models is because they are reselling labour at 1000%+ markups. if they think this is sustainable long term and wont attract competition they are seriously deluded. where there are fat margins there will be competition sooner or later. there are some business models around open source that have some interest but none are overly inspiring. free stuff isnt a new business model it just never gains much traction because it rarely works for long or well. f) it varies, competition works well for some people and not for other. likewise with colaboration. its not overly relavent imo. closedness is only a unit for inter-company. intra-company colaboration and openness is the rule (at least in well managed companies, read Jack Welch and inside stories about GE) so we already have the best of both worlds. open source has nothing new to add here. Vic ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Official Card Carrying Member of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy From jmorris at redhat.com Sat May 28 01:44:22 2005 From: jmorris at redhat.com (James Morris) Date: Sat May 28 01:44:41 2005 Subject: the arguments summarised was Re: [LINK] The Open Source Heretic In-Reply-To: <20050527130741.GA16697@cia.com.au> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 May 2005, Deus Ex Maximus wrote: > linux has not made any inroads into the desktops Google. - James -- James Morris From lannet at lannet.com.au Sat May 28 03:03:05 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Sat May 28 03:03:24 2005 Subject: the arguments summarised was Re: [LINK] The Open Source Heretic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429752C9.6000000@lannet.com.au> James Morris wrote: > On Fri, 27 May 2005, Deus Ex Maximus wrote: > > >> linux has not made any inroads into the desktops > > > Google. Ahhh, but the troll will say that that is not on the desktop. The fact that most servers and backends are FOSS driven is irrelevant to those who only see computing as what is on the desktop. Sad really. > > > - James -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From hartr at interweft.com.au Sat May 28 08:24:00 2005 From: hartr at interweft.com.au (Robert Hart) Date: Sat May 28 08:23:53 2005 Subject: [LINK] The Open Source Heretic In-Reply-To: <20050527045738.GB10085@cia.com.au> References: <20050527021710.GA937@cia.com.au> <20050527024714.GC2541@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <20050527030654.GA10085@cia.com.au> <42969D65.7050109@ramin.com.au> <20050527045738.GB10085@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <42979E00.7020608@interweft.com.au> Deus Ex Machina wrote: > >the charity model isnt a business model. > Sigh. Dear Vic Please go and read the entire 'about' section on the Apache foundation. When you have done that, go and research what the large corporate members of the Apache foundation say about their membership. You might at the same time research the OSDL and its members as that might help drive some understanding into your incredibly resistant brain. Then stop and think about this until the light goes on (might take a few years, maybe an entire lifetime in your case) and only THEN start talking about this and related issue again. It is not the job of the members on this list to provide you with a continuous stream of free education about FOSS and related topics. Likewise, it is not your job to feed us with a continuous stream of bigoted, uninformed libertarian bullshit. So please stop. -- Robert Hart hartr@interweft.com.au +61 (0)438 385 533 Brisbane, Australia http://www.hart.wattle.id.au From hartr at interweft.com.au Sat May 28 08:40:45 2005 From: hartr at interweft.com.au (Robert Hart) Date: Sat May 28 08:40:44 2005 Subject: [LINK] The Open Source Heretic In-Reply-To: <4296A24A.9090709@aarnet.edu.au> References: <20050527021710.GA937@cia.com.au> <4296A24A.9090709@aarnet.edu.au> Message-ID: <4297A1ED.4010002@interweft.com.au> Glen Turner wrote: > I'd be cautious about claims about business models from > McVoy. My personal experience is that the business side > of his software operation is poorly thought out and poorly > run. I spent a weekend with Larry and a few friends touring the Napa and Sonoma county wineries back in 1999. By the end of a fascinating weekend that included much discussion until late in the evenings, Larry struck me as an incredibly intelligent writer of complex software who had an incredible ability to be startlingly wrong about things outside his main area of competence. His efforts with Bitkeeper illustrate this rather well - great software and dumb business. -- Robert Hart hartr@interweft.com.au +61 (0)438 385 533 Brisbane, Australia http://www.hart.wattle.id.au From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Sat May 28 08:31:14 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Sat May 28 09:16:29 2005 Subject: [LINK] google snooping Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20050528081714.0207b008@popa.melbpc.org.au> The new google feature of accessing satellite images is spawning a new game [remember the google game where you tried to put in the right search terms to get only ONE result?]. The second link is an interesting example. > http://maps.google.com/ > >...and interesting things people have found so far >http://www.googlesightseeing.com/2005/05/18/ufo-update/ Homesite: http://www.googlesightseeing.com/ Jan JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.17 - Release Date: 25/05/2005 From brd at iimetro.com.au Sat May 28 11:17:45 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Sat May 28 11:18:08 2005 Subject: [LINK] Detroit high school opens its desktops Message-ID: <4297C6B9.5615E1B9@iimetro.com.au> Detroit high school opens its desktops Thursday May 26, 2005 (07:00 PM GMT) By: Kevin Quiggle http://software.newsforge.com/software/05/05/18/1944227.shtml?tid=130&tid=93 In 2003, John Hansknecht, the director of technology at the University of Detroit Jesuit High School and Academy, had a tough decision to make. The school had about a hundred older computers running Microsoft Office 97 and Windows NT, and some kind of upgrade was clearly required. It would have been an easy decision to simply upgrade to Microsoft Office 2000, but that would have required replacing all the computers with more powerful systems -- a large expenditure which could be better spent on other technology needs. Hansknecht had a better idea: OpenOffice.org. The previous year Hansknecht had begun evaluating OpenOffice.org with the assistance of Peter Guenther, the computer applications teacher, and Vondra Abbott, the school librarian. Hansknecht thought that if he could meet the school's requirements with an office suite that worked with both Microsoft Windows and Linux, he could eliminate the cost of Microsoft Office and reduce the need for periodic and expensive hardware upgrades. However, it was not sufficient that OpenOffice.org was free software; it was also essential that the software meet the school's requirements for quality and functionality. As a college preparatory school with almost a thousand students, U of D Jesuit has a strong commitment to academics, including teaching technology. Any office suite chosen for the school would have to meet the requirements of both students and faculty in terms of stability, functions, and features. Hansknecht would also have to convince the school's Faculty Technology Committee, with both facts and a cost analysis, that OpenOffice.org was a good choice. The essential facts were these: The school had a total of 158 newer PCs running Microsoft Windows XP, and 110 older PCs running Microsoft Windows NT and Microsoft Office 97. Realistically, upgrading the older PCs to Windows XP would require a complete hardware replacement. As an alternative, Hansknecht thought the older PCs could be converted to Linux terminals using software from the Linux Terminal Server Project (LTSP). Although it would be necessary to purchase Linux servers to support LTSP clients, no PC replacements would be required. The cost analysis was compelling -- the Linux option could be implemented for around $21,000, more than $100,000 less than the Microsoft Windows alternative. The key to enabling the move to Linux, however, was the ability to provide an acceptable office application suite that would run on both Windows XP and Linux. It was impractical for the school to support more than one office application suite, nor was it cost-effective nor beneficial to remove Windows XP from the newer systems. The functional requirements for an office suite were straightforward: The suite had to include full-featured word processing, spreadsheets with graphs and charts, and presentations. The suite needed to include all of the functions and capabilities being taught in technology classes, be an effective tool for use in school work assignments, and be able to open documents in Microsoft formats for Word, Excel, and PowerPoint. Ironically, it turned out that OpenOffice.org met the last requirement about as well as Microsoft Office, because the software that students used at home included many older versions of Microsoft Office as well as Microsoft Works, and even Microsoft Office 2000 experienced compatibility issues with other Microsoft office applications. There was an additional benefit to OpenOffice.org -- because it is free open source software, the school was able to offer the software to all faculty and students. Ultimately, the school provided 30 "library copies" on CD-ROM for students to check out, take home, and install on their own systems. To support the proposed adoption of OpenOffice.org, Hansknecht presented a cost analysis and implementation plan to the Faculty Technology Committee. He also shared articles and information on OpenOffice.org and the open source philosophy with the faculty and with other decision-makers, to familiarize them with the concepts and benefits of open source software. Ultimately, Hansknecht's recommendation went to the school's Technology Team, which made a final decision to go ahead in May 2003. With this approval, one of the school computer labs was converted to Linux and OpenOffice.org 1.1 as a pilot test. The lessons learned from the pilot test were used to prepare a complete conversion of all school computers over the summer vacation period (a vacation time for the students, but not for the school technology support staff!). The school sent notification to the students and their parents advising them of the switch. The school's technology support staff provided orientation sessions to both faculty and students at the beginning of the school year to familiarize them with OpenOffice.org. These 45-minute orientation sessions explained the general layout of the OpenOffice.org suite, discussed key differences between OpenOffice.org and Microsoft Office, and showed users where to find the "Microsoft Office equivalents" for the most commonly used features and functions. Of course, since U of D Jesuit is a school, students were also given classes in the use of OpenOffice.org. While OpenOffice.org is now used by 100% of the faculty and students in the school (though some administrative staff still uses Microsoft Office due to specific software requirements), students are not required to use OpenOffice.org when working at home. However, a presentation is given to students at the start of every school year to advise them on the use of OpenOffice.org, the availability of free copies, and potential problems of converting from Microsoft Office formats. As a practical matter, conversion of documents from Microsoft Office has not been a significant problem, with the exception of some of the more complex PowerPoint files. This has been a concern for some faculty members who have a large number of PowerPoint classroom presentations. Although these presentations could be recreated in OpenOffice.org, faculty members would naturally rather spend their time creating new presentations than recreating existing ones. As a temporary measure, the school has made the free Microsoft PowerPoint viewer software available, although Hansknecht hopes that OpenOffice.org 2.0 will provide improved conversion capabilities and eliminate this interim requirement. The school is evaluating the OpenOffice.org release 2 beta; a decision on whether to implement the upgrade will be made before this summer. The ability of OpenOffice.org to read and convert Microsoft Office files does not include conversion of macros, but this is not an issue for the school since students and teachers generally do not make significant use of macros. Another minor concern has been the fact that the school uses a "plagiarism prevention" service from Turnitin.com, and the service does not accept files in OpenOffice.org formats. Since OpenOffice.org can save files in Microsoft Office formats, this is merely an annoyance. U of D Jesuit re-evaluates its implementation of OpenOffice.org at the end of every year. At each re-evaluation, it finds that the project is meeting the school's goals and requirements. The school has also found some unexpected benefits. Not only has the use of LTSP extended the life of existing hardware, it has actually improved the response time and stability of the systems involved. Hansknecht does not hesitate to recommend OpenOffice.org to other schools, and he has extended his use of open source software to include the Mozilla browser, GIMP graphics software, Apache Web server, and the Moodle course management system. The successful adoption of OpenOffice.org at U of D Jesuit did not happen by accident. Thorough planning, hard work, an information campaign, and ongoing support were all required. -- My school days were the happiest days of my life; which should give you some indication of the misery I've endured over the past twenty-five years. -- Paul Merton Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From stephen at melbpc.org.au Sat May 28 13:23:00 2005 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley) Date: Sat May 28 13:23:16 2005 Subject: [LINK] Google Print beta Message-ID: <4297E414.6030107@melbpc.org.au> Google launched the beta-verision of Google Print yesterday. http://print.google.com/ 'Google Print has entered and cataologued a huge number of books from various libraries and put them into an online library of sorts ..' Regards all .. Stephen Loosley Melbourne Australia From pjchen at optusnet.com.au Sat May 28 16:10:13 2005 From: pjchen at optusnet.com.au (Peter Chen) Date: Sat May 28 16:10:14 2005 Subject: [LINK] Google Print beta In-Reply-To: <4297E414.6030107@melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <200505280610.j4S6AAbk008123@mail26.syd.optusnet.com.au> Interesting service, and pretty straight forward business model. I don't like the interface much though, as searching for a title is pretty random. P _ _____________ _ Peter Chen +61 3 9440 6266 [home/office] 0431994205 [mobile] pjchen@optusnet.com.au MSN and Skype.com ("peterjohnchen") members.optusnet.com.au/pjchen There is something insane about a lack of doubt. Doubt, to me anyway, is what makes you human, and without doubt even the righteous lose their grip not only on reality but also on their humanity. - Tilda Swinton -----Original Message----- From: link-bounces@anumail0.anu.edu.au [mailto:link-bounces@anumail0.anu.edu.au] On Behalf Of Stephen Loosley Sent: Saturday, 28 May 2005 1:23 PM To: Link@anu.edu.au; Oz-teachers@cobia.ed.qut.edu.au; Mentor@myinternet.com.au Subject: [LINK] Google Print beta Google launched the beta-verision of Google Print yesterday. http://print.google.com/ 'Google Print has entered and cataologued a huge number of books from various libraries and put them into an online library of sorts ..' Regards all .. Stephen Loosley Melbourne Australia _______________________________________________ Link mailing list Link@mailman.anu.edu.au http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Sat May 28 20:41:34 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Sat May 28 20:41:41 2005 Subject: [LINK] Google Print beta In-Reply-To: <4297E414.6030107@melbpc.org.au> References: <4297E414.6030107@melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <42984ADE.7010006@ozemail.com.au> With thanks to Tom's Hardware Guide for a guesstimate of 10c per page for my inkjet ... that makes about $55 for Bleak House if I don't feel like reading it online... RC Stephen Loosley wrote: > Google launched the beta-verision of Google Print yesterday. > > http://print.google.com/ > > 'Google Print has entered and cataologued a huge number of books from > various libraries and put them into an online library of sorts ..' > > Regards all .. > Stephen Loosley > Melbourne Australia > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > From lannet at lannet.com.au Sun May 29 08:02:55 2005 From: lannet at lannet.com.au (Howard Lowndes) Date: Sun May 29 08:03:12 2005 Subject: [LINK] Google Print beta In-Reply-To: <42984ADE.7010006@ozemail.com.au> References: <4297E414.6030107@melbpc.org.au> <42984ADE.7010006@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <4298EA8F.8080806@lannet.com.au> rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > With thanks to Tom's Hardware Guide for a guesstimate of 10c per page > for my inkjet ... that makes about $55 for Bleak House if I don't feel > like reading it online... That's expensive. I reckon my laser (Lexmark Optra secondhand $300) costs me about 2.3c. Paper is just under 1c and a cartridge costs $200 for about 15,000 pages. OK, no colour, but I can live without that. > > RC > > Stephen Loosley wrote: > >> Google launched the beta-verision of Google Print yesterday. >> >> http://print.google.com/ >> >> 'Google Print has entered and cataologued a huge number of books from >> various libraries and put them into an online library of sorts ..' >> >> Regards all .. >> Stephen Loosley >> Melbourne Australia >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Link mailing list >> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link >> > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Howard. LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people -- When you just want a system that works, you choose Linux; When you want a system that just works, you choose Microsoft. -- Flatter government, not fatter government; Get rid of the Australian states. From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Sun May 29 09:09:41 2005 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Sun May 29 09:15:27 2005 Subject: [LINK] Google Print beta In-Reply-To: <4297E414.6030107@melbpc.org.au> References: <4297E414.6030107@melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20050529090642.01e98cf8@popa.melbpc.org.au> At 01:23 PM 28/05/2005, Stephen Loosley wrote: >Google launched the beta-verision of Google Print yesterday. > > http://print.google.com/ > >'Google Print has entered and cataologued a huge number of books from >various libraries and put them into an online library of sorts ..' It's interesting to try. If you are used to Amazon or a real library search system, this won't cut it. Keywords aren't enough, particularly if you want to find out if they have a specific book. If you put in Dan Brown, you'll get 5000 pages with Dan Brown, but that includes any Dan Brown! I tried author:Dan Brown and got nothing back with that approach. Simple is not better in this case. Thumbs down in its current form. Jan JLWhitaker Associates Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit@melbpc.org.au -- http://member.melbpc.org.au/~jwhit/whitentr.htm 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.17 - Release Date: 25/05/2005 From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Sun May 29 10:09:17 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Sun May 29 10:09:08 2005 Subject: [LINK] Google Print beta In-Reply-To: <4298EA8F.8080806@lannet.com.au> References: <4297E414.6030107@melbpc.org.au> <42984ADE.7010006@ozemail.com.au> <4298EA8F.8080806@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <4299082D.8040403@ozemail.com.au> Howard Lowndes wrote: > > > rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote: > >> With thanks to Tom's Hardware Guide for a guesstimate of 10c per page >> for my inkjet ... that makes about $55 for Bleak House if I don't >> feel like reading it online... > > > That's expensive. I reckon my laser (Lexmark Optra secondhand $300) > costs me about 2.3c. Paper is just under 1c and a cartridge costs > $200 for about 15,000 pages. Yeah, if you like money, don't buy inkjets. Yours would run off Bleak House for $20, compared to Dymocks' $13.95. Of course, the comparison is unfair to Google Print. It's not an "online library" as in a "place where you come to get books", it's an attempt to put Google organisation on book catalogues. How well it does that I don't know because I don't look for books from catalogues, as a rule. RC > > OK, no colour, but I can live without that. > >> >> RC >> >> Stephen Loosley wrote: >> >>> Google launched the beta-verision of Google Print yesterday. >>> >>> http://print.google.com/ >>> >>> 'Google Print has entered and cataologued a huge number of books from >>> various libraries and put them into an online library of sorts ..' >>> >>> Regards all .. >>> Stephen Loosley >>> Melbourne Australia >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Link mailing list >>> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >>> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Link mailing list >> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au >> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link >> > From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au Fri May 27 15:00:53 2005 From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington) Date: Mon May 30 09:26:58 2005 Subject: [LINK] VoIP supplier support for Triple Zero In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20050527114311.03adf018@wheresmymailserver.com> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050523162636.01d7b268@fastmail.fm> <20050518013846.BAMV8920.swebmail00.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> <428B7B9B.1060809@melbpc.org.au> <428BBFBD.3070909@lannet.com.au> <428C4B88.8010602@ozemail.com.au> <6.2.1.2.0.20050523162636.01d7b268@fastmail.fm> <5.1.0.14.0.20050527114311.03adf018@wheresmymailserver.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050527145522.01cd0a48@fastmail.fm> At 11:54 AM 5/27/2005, Adam Todd wrote: >At 01:19 27/05/2005 +1000, Stephen Loosley wrote: >>Tom wrote: >> >>>The VoIP I registered for made a point explaining they needed my >>>physical address for emergency calls. ... > >What if I'm using VoIP with my laptop and I'm at a friends house ... The >emergency services turn up 300km's in the wrong place? ... The emergency operator will ask the caller for their address. Having a prerecorded address helps if the caller is unable to give the address and to deter hoax calls. If the caller is using a mobile, the operator knows that the phone may not be at the registered location. Perhaps VoIP phone numbers should be (or are) similarly noted as being portable, so the emergency operator knows the address may not be correct. A problem I have noticed with the VoIP box I bought is that it assumes a US style dialing system. You have to enter "1" followed by the area code and phone number. As a result dialing 000 will not work. The VoIP provider has scripts for Australian cities to load into the box so local numbers and 000 works. Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 http://www.tomw.net.au PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 Visiting Fellow, Computer Science, Australian National University From julian_bajkowski at idg.com.au Mon May 30 11:23:22 2005 From: julian_bajkowski at idg.com.au (julian_bajkowski@idg.com.au) Date: Mon May 30 11:18:07 2005 Subject: [LINK] Unstoppable? The Microsoft media juggernaut In-Reply-To: <20050527061756.GA24835@cia.com.au> Message-ID: I dare this guy to ask my 'she who must be obeyed' what she thinks about her new-ish Motorola smart phone running Windows Mobile, DRM or otherwise. He will not like the answer. She is as agnostic as they come and the restarts are killing her. Try telling the mother of a 2 year old who works from home that she needs an OS update or patch for her mobile and see what sort of answer you get just before mealtime. <> From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Mon May 30 11:18:58 2005 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au) Date: Mon May 30 11:19:15 2005 Subject: [LINK] VoIP supplier support for Triple Zero Message-ID: <20050530011858.PWSG29550.swebmail01.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> Tom, > > A problem I have noticed with the VoIP box I bought is that it assumes a US > style dialing system. You have to enter "1" followed by the area code and > phone number. Tom, this is an artefact of how VoIP providers purchase their PSTN minutes. The cheapest minutes come from international providers; hence dialling the international number. It also means that "there are no local calls" (this is not 100% true but it is a good guideline; everything is timed). It's worth observing that if even the tech literati find this odd, it's going to be dizzying for Joe Sixpack... Cheers, RC This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au From vicc at cia.com.au Mon May 30 11:31:32 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Deus Standing Machina) Date: Mon May 30 11:32:43 2005 Subject: [LINK] Intel quietly adds DRM to new chips Message-ID: <20050530013132.GA20933@cia.com.au> Intel quietly adds DRM to new chips http://www.digitmag.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=4915 From rick at praxis.com.au Mon May 30 13:28:10 2005 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Mon May 30 13:28:24 2005 Subject: [LINK] Intel quietly adds DRM to new chips In-Reply-To: <20050530013132.GA20933@cia.com.au> References: <20050530013132.GA20933@cia.com.au> Message-ID: <429A884A.8050508@praxis.com.au> Deus Standing Machina wrote: > Intel quietly adds DRM to new chips > http://www.digitmag.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=4915 Just think of the fun Joe Sixpack is going to have when Microsoft, not renowned for quality or accurary in its software implementations, gets the DRM details wrong on the Word document Joe just has to get finished and distributed from home by tonight, and the DRM kicks his document off the system, or prevents access in some other fashion. Here is a possible future for the 945g chipset and its ilk. Intel will require royalties for access to proprietary information on how to manage the DRM on the chipset. That information requires an NDA to be signed and a very hefty fee to be paid. Microsoft of course buys into this and produces Windows Longhorn/DRM edition, the new de facto standard in "copyright safe" technology. Suddenly, FOSS implementations like Linux, the BSDs, etc. are suddenly locked out of the new hardware. Perhaps Intel and Microsoft are taken to court on charges of setting up a monopoly or cartel with their new hardware and software. Nah, been there, done that. And MS was slapped on the wrist. No penalty. Finally, the article mentions It's got uses and misuses. Intel has to answer what guarantees it is prepared to give that home users are safe from hackers. Not maybes, guarantees. How long do you think it will take the DRm mechnism to be cracked? The track record of imbedded security to protect confidential data and copyright by the IT industry has been abysmal. Remember DeSCC, the DVD encryption crack that came out about a week after the DVD was released? How about the week or so it took to crack smart cards? GSM security? Cracked within days. cheers rick -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services "I drank what?" - Socrates, 399 BC From rw at firstpr.com.au Mon May 30 14:31:09 2005 From: rw at firstpr.com.au (Robin Whittle) Date: Mon May 30 14:30:45 2005 Subject: [LINK] ADMA supports govt Do Not Call/Contact list Message-ID: <429A970D.2010705@firstpr.com.au> Life is full of surprises . . . A press release from the Australian Direct Marketing Association, long the nemesis of privacy advocates, from 20 May: http://www.adma.com.au/data/portal/00000947/content/97352001116565766535.pdf The Australian Direct Marketing Association (ADMA) has welcomed the sensible and balanced approach taken by the Privacy Commissioner, Karen Curtis in her review of the Privacy Act 1998. The 400 page report was released yesterday, following a review of the private sector provisions of the Act, and includes a recommendation for the establishment of a national Do Not Call register. As the peak trade association representing the Australian direct marketing industry, ADMA runs its own Do Not Call service which applies to ADMA member companies. ADMA put a two-point proposal to the Federal government last year to set up a national Do Not Call register run by the telecommunications regulator and to introduce Commonwealth law to bring consistency to the different state telemarketing laws. As such, ADMA supports the establishment of a nationally consistent Do Not Call service so that consumer expectations can be met. Rob Edwards, CEO of ADMA said: "Overall we believe that the recommendations the Privacy Commissioner has outlined in her review document strikes a fair balance between industry and consumer needs. There is a need for a government-backed national Do Not Call register as whilst ADMA?s Do Not Call scheme is an excellent initiative, it is no longer adequate because it does not have universal coverage. We need a Do Not Call service that applies industry-wide to all telemarketers, not just to ADMA member companies" Maybe they got sick of running their own scheme. Typically people like these only support government regulation when asking for money, but they don't seem to be wanting this. The Privacy Commissioner's report (18 May 2005) is at: http://www.privacy.gov.au/act/review/index.html The recommendation, on page 103 (PDF page 114) seems to cover not just telemarketing, but direct mail and (I guess) door-to-door sales: Recommendations: Direct marketing 23 The Australian Government should consider amending the Privacy Act to provide that consumers have a general right to opt-out of direct marketing approaches at any time. Organisations should be required to comply with the request within a specified time after receiving the request. 24 The Australian Government should consider amending the Privacy Act to require organisations to take reasonable steps, on request, to advise an individual where it acquired the individual?s personal information. 25 The Australian Government should consider exploring options for establishing a national "Do Not Contact" register. So it seems ADMA has completely reversed its long-standing position of opposing greater government regulation of privacy. In the past, ADMA has crowed about its direct influence on the government (more likely just the Prime Minister and his minders, since the AG and Cabinet were not consulted) after John Howard decided in April 1997 not to extend the Federal Privacy Act to cover businesses. (Search for "Howard" at: http://www.firstpr.com.au/issues/tm/ .) The Labor Party went to the last election with a policy of establishing a US-style Do Not Call list. The Coalition opposed this and used automated telemarketing to try to win votes. Either this was a stupid approach or there are enough stupid people out there to make it successful. The association between ADMA and the Liberal Party seems to be strong, and they have both consistently opposed greater government regulation of commercial activities which threaten privacy. Now, on this important matter at least, ADMA supports the position long held by the privacy advocates - though we really think intrusive marketing should be regulated on an opt-in basis, rather than opt-out. - Robin http://www.firstpr.com.au/issues/tm/ From rw at firstpr.com.au Mon May 30 14:45:23 2005 From: rw at firstpr.com.au (Robin Whittle) Date: Mon May 30 14:45:28 2005 Subject: [LINK] Re: ADMA supports govt Do Not Call/Contact list Message-ID: <429A9A63.10609@firstpr.com.au> Apparently ADMA wants to run this "Do Not Contact" list itself - and therefore police non-members, with government backing and I assume funding! I have been told that: Today's Australian Financial Review article would suggest the ADMA actually wants a slightly different approach. It quotes Rob Edwards as saying the ADMA wants a legislated / mandatory do-not-call list, but still to be run by the ADMA, not the government. i.e. in the language of Edwards, they want to be able to police non-members of the ADMA, as well as their own members. See p.52, "Marketers push do-not-call list", AFR, 30/5/05. I haven't read the article, but searching their site: http://afr.com/misc/archive.html for ADMA leads to the following snippet from an article today: Marketers push do-not-call list The Australian Direct Marketing Association has started working with the federal government on the introduction of a do-not-call register and is confident the scheme will be run by the private sector rather than a government department. The Financial Review 30/05/2005 Cost - $3.30 397 words Silly me for thinking ADMA could actually be interested in protecting privacy. - Robin From Fred.Pilcher at act.gov.au Mon May 30 16:25:14 2005 From: Fred.Pilcher at act.gov.au (Pilcher, Fred) Date: Mon May 30 16:26:14 2005 Subject: [LINK] Intel quietly adds DRM to new chips Message-ID: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72F42EB0@cal066.act.gov.au> Rick wrote: > Deus Standing Machina wrote: > > > Intel quietly adds DRM to new chips > > http://www.digitmag.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=4915 Some time ago some colleagues and I discussed this style of DRM as it applied to government agencies and came to the unanimous conclusion that it was unworkable. Imagine a correspondent e-mailing us an important document with restrictions on printing/saving/forwarding, where our records management act/s require us to print/save/forward. Could we act on it? How could it be submitted to a court of law? It'll be interesting to see how the US government deals with it. I'd imagine that Intel/MS would have done all the appropriate negotiations with government to ensure that the move was sanctioned. If so, how would we deal with it under the FTA? As a side issue, I received an important document from a Commonwealth government agency last week in PDF format. I could save it locally, they'd disabled printing, so the document is virtually useless to me. Fred ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If you are not the intended recipient: Please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From cas at taz.net.au Mon May 30 17:12:58 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Mon May 30 17:10:36 2005 Subject: [LINK] Re: ADMA supports govt Do Not Call/Contact list In-Reply-To: <429A9A63.10609@firstpr.com.au> References: <429A9A63.10609@firstpr.com.au> Message-ID: <20050530071258.GA16498@taz.net.au> On Mon, May 30, 2005 at 02:45:23PM +1000, Robin Whittle wrote: > Marketers push do-not-call list > > The Australian Direct Marketing Association has started working with > the federal government on the introduction of a do-not-call register > and is confident the scheme will be run by the private sector rather > than a government department. yes, this makes perfect sense, just as it makes sense to hire wolves to protect your sheep, burglars to guard your house, and paedophiles to protect your children. craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) From julian_bajkowski at idg.com.au Mon May 30 18:25:08 2005 From: julian_bajkowski at idg.com.au (julian_bajkowski@idg.com.au) Date: Mon May 30 18:19:51 2005 Subject: [LINK] Intel quietly adds DRM to new chips In-Reply-To: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72F42EB0@cal066.act.gov.au> Message-ID: Nothing like the enforced anonymity of on-line syndication ... to feel like a stranger in one's own country. If anyone has any technical info on where the hell this supposed DRM sits - sub OS, fimware, BIOS - please mail me off list. http://www.digitmag.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=4915 http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php?id=580672002 Baj From brd at iimetro.com.au Tue May 31 09:15:33 2005 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Tue May 31 09:16:09 2005 Subject: [LINK] Research collapse sours IT jobs lift Message-ID: <429B9E95.76FA4828@iimetro.com.au> Whatever happend to that phrase "the clever country"? Research collapse sours IT jobs lift Julian Bajkowski Computerworld 31/05/2005 08:05:25 http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php?id=171831906&eid=-255 Unemployment amongst IT professionals in the research and development and education sectors has nearly tripled in the last two years, taking the gloss off a wider IT jobs recovery. According to the Australian Computer Society's annual ICT Employment Survey for 2004, R&D and education sectors hemorrhaged tech jobs at a near exponential rate, with job losses rising from 4.4 percent in 2002 to 11.1 percent in 2004. The academic result jars sharply with the survey's wider trend which found ICT employment has rebounded strongly from cyclical lows. Across the board, the ACS found better news with unemployment among its membership dropping significantly to 7.2 percent in 2004 from 12.1 percent in 2002. Despite the lift in jobs, the ACS cautioned the ICT unemployment baseline remains more than 2 percent higher than the current Australian Bureau of Statistics' labour force data national average of 5.1 percent unemployment. Project managers faired the best out of the survey, with vacancies dropping from 19.6 percent in 2003 to 8.9 percent in 2004, suggesting strong reinvestment by the corporate and government sectors in IT - albeit still 3.8 per cent higher unemployment rate than the national average. The latter figure is also probably substantially understated by virtue of many private and public sector organizations holding off large IT reinvestments in lieu of the October 2004 federal election. The situation on the programming and business analysis front also continues to worsen, with the ACS again pointing to heavily discounted labour sourced through Australia's highly malleable visa system as a cause for rising unemployment. The survey claims unemployment among programmers has risen from 18 percent of ICT jobless in 2003 to 22.2 percent in 2004, while business analysts rocketed from 5.4 percent claiming they were unemployed in 2003 to 17.8 percent in 2004. Having already labelled the 457 visa system as open to rorting, ACS president Edward Mandla said he is "deeply concerned that both our permanent and temporary migration programs have contributed to Australian unemployment." "[Australia's] permanent and temporary visa programs are still bringing in high numbers of inexperienced programmers - and programmers currently have the highest unemployment levels in Australia. This makes no sense," Mandla said. The ACS survey was compiled from a sample of 642 responses with 4.9 percent response rate, with thinktank Access Economics cited as providing "professional advice in how to interpret results" from the survey. Loss of students blamed for slump Those familiar with IT on the academic circuit point to a drop in revenues overseas students as a major factor hitting the R&D sector. Managing partner of strategic and policy consultancy Sanseman Government, Matthew Tutaki cited "a marked downturn in the number of overseas students" as a causal factor, adding "this directly funds R&D in tertiary institutions." "Australia's education sector doesn't yet understand how to compete in the global R&D economy. Do not underestimate the impact of the loss of revenue from international students," Tutaki said. He added that corporate funding for IT development has also waned significantly in favour of cheaper offshore destinations. Tutaki said Australian IT unemployment was "comparatively high considering we are an innovation based economy." -- Man cannot live by incompetence alone. -- Charlotte Whitton Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd@iimetro.com.au From link at todd.inoz.com Tue May 31 11:29:34 2005 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Tue May 31 11:36:53 2005 Subject: [LINK] ADMA supports govt Do Not Call/Contact list In-Reply-To: <429A970D.2010705@firstpr.com.au> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050531112851.03fc6d38@wheresmymailserver.com> At 14:31 30/05/2005 +1000, Robin Whittle wrote: >Life is full of surprises . . . A press release from the Australian >Direct Marketing Association, long the nemesis of privacy advocates, >from 20 May: > > >http://www.adma.com.au/data/portal/00000947/content/97352001116565766535.pdf > > The Australian Direct Marketing Association (ADMA) has welcomed the > sensible and balanced approach taken by the Privacy Commissioner, > Karen Curtis in her review of the Privacy Act 1998. > > The 400 page report was released yesterday, following a review of the > private sector provisions of the Act, and includes a recommendation > for the establishment of a national Do Not Call register. My only concern with this sort of thing is that someone will join ADMA, get the DO NOT CALL register, terminate with ADMA and then use the material. Or maybe not even need to be as bold. I also think that the organisation for which the members are the users of such lists also being the caretaker is no better than DoCS officers who are 23 year old without children telling parents who are 30+ how to care for their children. Or Politicians who claim to represent the interest of a country and then say that it's not in the interests of the country to make a phone call in support of the populations anger about a badly structured legal decision incarcerating a Citizen (who probably voted for him.) But then, when have Politicians REALLY represented the interests of the people? I didn't see the People demanding a pay increase for politicians, did you? And did the people get one? No. Other examples have also been given I note in my reading o Link :) From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au Tue May 31 15:36:11 2005 From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee) Date: Tue May 31 15:36:19 2005 Subject: [LINK] Google is (locally) broken Message-ID: <20050531053611.GA3824@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> Since the last Google update a week ago, my web site has been downgraded so that (to a good approximation) it doesn't rank anywhere for any queries -- it doesn't even come up on a search for "Danny Yee's book reviews". And other sites are suffering similar afflictions. Some kind of anti-spam filter seems to have got a bit over-aggressive -- Google still has a bigger index than Yahoo or MSN, but it's more heavily targetted by spammers and a hidden cost of that is the disappearance of many sites into blackholes. Danny. ---------------------------------------------------------- http://dannyreviews.com/ - over eight hundred book reviews http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog ---------------------------------------------------------- From cas at taz.net.au Tue May 31 16:45:05 2005 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Tue May 31 16:42:39 2005 Subject: [LINK] Google is (locally) broken In-Reply-To: <20050531053611.GA3824@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> References: <20050531053611.GA3824@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <20050531064505.GB1549@taz.net.au> On Tue, May 31, 2005 at 03:36:11PM +1000, Danny Yee wrote: > Since the last Google update a week ago, my web site has been > downgraded so that (to a good approximation) it doesn't rank anywhere > for any queries -- it doesn't even come up on a search for "Danny Yee's > book reviews". And other sites are suffering similar afflictions. it seemed ok when i searched just now... a search for "danny yee" has http://dannyreviews.com/ as the first result. second result is http://danny.oz.au/ (which makes sense - there'd be a lot more links to your reviews site than to your home page). interestingly, a search for "danny yee book reviews" doesn't come up with either of your sites. the entire first page of results are sites with links to dannyreviews.com craig -- craig sanders (part time cyborg) Free Corby! (special offer with every 4.1Kg -- Limit: one per customer) From mikal at stillhq.com Tue May 31 16:42:56 2005 From: mikal at stillhq.com (Michael Still) Date: Tue May 31 16:44:11 2005 Subject: [LINK] Google is (locally) broken In-Reply-To: <20050531053611.GA3824@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> References: <20050531053611.GA3824@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <429C0770.6010805@stillhq.com> Danny Yee wrote: > Since the last Google update a week ago, my web site has been > downgraded so that (to a good approximation) it doesn't rank anywhere > for any queries -- it doesn't even come up on a search for "Danny Yee's > book reviews". And other sites are suffering similar afflictions. > > Some kind of anti-spam filter seems to have got a bit over-aggressive > -- Google still has a bigger index than Yahoo or MSN, but it's > more heavily targetted by spammers and a hidden cost of that is the > disappearance of many sites into blackholes. Your site is certainly still in the index. If I search for site:dannyreviews.com, I get nearly 5,000 pages indexed. Could you expand on the "suffering similar afflictions"? I'm seeing more Google traffic than ever. Mikal -- Michael Still (mikal@stillhq.com) | "The geek shall inherit http://www.stillhq.com | the earth" UTC + 10 | -- The Simpsons From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au Tue May 31 17:08:00 2005 From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee) Date: Tue May 31 17:08:10 2005 Subject: [LINK] Google is (locally) broken In-Reply-To: <20050531064505.GB1549@taz.net.au> References: <20050531053611.GA3824@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <20050531064505.GB1549@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <20050531070800.GA10526@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> Craig Sanders wrote: > interestingly, a search for "danny yee book reviews" doesn't come up with > either of your sites. the entire first page of results are sites with links > to dannyreviews.com That's what's strange. My pages can't be found using their titles at all -- e.g. if you search on "inner quarters patricia buckley ebrey book review" my review is buried on page six. My guess is that my pages have been linked to by too many scrapers (people who auto-create millions of pages using snippets of contents from and links to other web sites, in order to flesh out fodder for search engines). Google sees this as an attempt to game their search algorithms, and so penalises me for having "over-optimised" pages. For an example of a scraper page that links to me, see http://www.voltcomm.net/dennett.html -- this contains auto-generated links to pages and snippets of text, designed to attract visitors through search engines and to feed them lots of ads. The completely unrelated "related links" in the right column are there to help other pages on the site rank with the search engines. Google hasn't helped things by allowing scraper sites like this to run their AdSense ads. Danny. From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au Tue May 31 17:21:18 2005 From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee) Date: Tue May 31 17:21:26 2005 Subject: [LINK] Google is (locally) broken In-Reply-To: <429C0770.6010805@stillhq.com> References: <20050531053611.GA3824@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> <429C0770.6010805@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <20050531072118.GB10526@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> > Could you expand on the "suffering similar afflictions"? I'm seeing more > Google traffic than ever. Try any search that you'd expect to bring up one of my book reviews and you won't find it: http://www.google.com/search?q=loving+sabotage+nothomb+review http://www.google.com/search?q=marx+family+saga+goytisolo+review etc. To give you a broader picture of the difference this makes, I'm now getting around 5% as many referrals each day from Google as I got in January, while Yahoo and MSN referrals are much the same. Given that I've done nothing much to my site in the last six months (except to add another few dozen reviews), you can see why I think something has triggered a filter in Google's algorithm. Another site that was suffering is the Complete Review http://www.complete-review.com/ -- but all their pages recovered at once last weekend, so this is clearly some kind of site-wide penalty that is either "on" or "off". I'm hoping it gets turned off for me sooner rather than later... (At least with most of the anti-email-spam blacklists there's some procedure for getting off the list -- with Google one just has to wait and pray the next refinement of their algorithm does better.) There are long threads about problems on the Webmaster World forums http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum30/ (I'm sure some of the people complaining here _have_ done some dodgy things, but I know some of the people involved also run vanilla sites with real content and nothing at all dubious.) Danny. From nospam at crm911.com Tue May 31 20:03:31 2005 From: nospam at crm911.com (Ash Nallawalla) Date: Tue May 31 20:03:55 2005 Subject: [LINK] Google is (locally) broken In-Reply-To: <20050531053611.GA3824@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <20050531100340.A02E7129F6C@mail.netspace.net.au> > From: Danny Yee [mailto:danny@anatomy.usyd.edu.au] > Since the last Google update a week ago, my web site has been > downgraded so that (to a good approximation) it doesn't rank > anywhere for any queries -- it doesn't even come up on a > search for "Danny Yee's book reviews". And other sites are > suffering similar afflictions. I see you have mentioned the "Bourbon" update, which is a likely explanation. Scrapers and plagiarist sites presently rank higher than the original ones because they are newer. Try using an SSI include to display a random quotation or other random text on each page and all your pages will appear to be "new". I see 4680 pages from the site indexed in Google. -Ash From vicc at cia.com.au Tue May 31 20:05:40 2005 From: vicc at cia.com.au (Deus Ex Machina) Date: Tue May 31 20:06:51 2005 Subject: [LINK] Google is (locally) broken In-Reply-To: <20050531053611.GA3824@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> References: <20050531053611.GA3824@anatomy.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <20050531100540.GA2345@cia.com.au> this is normal. google does this every 6 months. technics people use trying to rank better are targeted by google for countermeasures the change in the algorithm cause colateral damage. every update a plethora of people whos income depends on google start crying. the latest update is called bourbon. its possible you have been 302 hijacked inadvertantly by one of the sites pointing to you. google is struggling with the 302 hijack issue. the best thing to do is complain to google, use "bourbon update" in the text and it might get some attention. type "bourbon update" into google if you want to see the pain and suffering an update causes. Vic Danny Yee [danny@anatomy.usyd.edu.au] wrote: > Since the last Google update a week ago, my web site has been > downgraded so that (to a good approximation) it doesn't rank anywhere > for any queries -- it doesn't even come up on a search for "Danny Yee's > book reviews". And other sites are suffering similar afflictions. > > Some kind of anti-spam filter seems to have got a bit over-aggressive > -- Google still has a bigger index than Yahoo or MSN, but it's > more heavily targetted by spammers and a hidden cost of that is the > disappearance of many sites into blackholes. > > Danny. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > http://dannyreviews.com/ - over eight hundred book reviews > http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au Tue May 31 20:44:19 2005 From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington) Date: Wed Jun 1 10:52:01 2005 Subject: [LINK] VoIP supplier support for Triple Zero In-Reply-To: <20050530011858.PWSG29550.swebmail01.mail.ozemail.net@local host> References: <20050530011858.PWSG29550.swebmail01.mail.ozemail.net@localhost> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050531142752.03cbba80@fastmail.fm> At 11:18 AM 5/30/2005, rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote (in reply to me): > > ... VoIP box I bought is that it assumes a US style dialing system. ... > >Tom, this is an artefact of how VoIP providers purchase their PSTN >minutes. ... It also means that "there are no local calls" ... The provider I am using (and most Australian ones I looked at) provide untimed local calls. I am not sure they do this because people expect it, or it is required by the Telecommunications Act . Having to enter 1 and area code to make a call is unrelated to call costs. It is due to the ATA (VoIP box) being preprogrammed with a US "dialing plan". I have reprogrammed mine with a plan for Canberra. >It's worth observing that if even the tech literati find this odd, it's >going to be dizzying for Joe Sixpack... The complexity in VoIP may go away before the average person has to deal with it, as happened with e-mail addresses. Many years ago, before most people had heard of e-mail, we had X.400. We had to translate each e-mail address before we could send a message and had to add (or remove) all sorts of gateway prefixes and the like. Internet e-mail eliminated that problem by putting all addresses into one standard international format. That was before e-mail became popular and thankfully we didn't have to explain X.400 addresses to many people. It doesn't matter now where you send a mail message from, or where to, you use the same address. VoIP might do the same to phone calls: if every telephone number is in an international standard format, to make a call you just dial that number. This assumes that a call costs so little that you don't really care how far away the called party is or how the call is routed. But then with VoIP there is no reason why you should as the underlying infrastructure costs so little to provide. If that sounds odd, imaging applying the voice charging to e-mail: you would pay a charge for each message based on how far it was going and long distance messages would cost several dollars per kilobyte. ps: For something even more bizarre there is a special range of fictitious telephone numbers in Australia . These reserved for use in TV shows and the like, to stop you getting calls when someone uses your phone number in a TV show. Perhaps we should have some official fictitious e-mail addresses? Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 http://www.tomw.net.au PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 Visiting Fellow, Computer Science, Australian National University