From cas at taz.net.au Tue Jan 1 09:59:45 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 09:59:45 +1100 Subject: Youth & Privacy [Was Re: [LINK] Trends and predictions 2008 In-Reply-To: References: <78585DD9-2BB7-46EA-B390-ABBF623A534D@itrundle.com> Message-ID: <20071231225945.GA593@taz.net.au> On Mon, Dec 31, 2007 at 12:07:11PM +1100, Roger Clarke wrote: > (4) the utterance is by an ad agency, whose interest lies in playing > down the privacy interest so that it doesn't get in the way of > their activities and if you repeatedly tell teenagers and twenty-somethings that only old farts like their parents care about privacy, that their generation doesn't care at all, then a very large percentage of them will believe it and adopt it because they want to be an outsider. a manufactured generation gap ready for political and corporate exploitation. memes, like anything else (especially including things like "fashion") can be created and manipulated....a task made much easier with billions of advertising dollars and a near-monopoly[1] on access to mass media. remember: all advertising is a deliberate viral attack on the integrity of your selfhood. some people are resistant or even immune to infection, most are not. [1] a shrinking near-monopoly. there are many more different and varied sources of information and propaganda now than there was just a few years ago. craig -- craig sanders BOFH excuse #285: Telecommunications is upgrading. From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Tue Jan 1 12:10:15 2008 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 12:10:15 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Onus on providers to clean up web content In-Reply-To: <47789A67.2070100@optusnet.com.au> References: <47788B44.3000301@iimetro.com.au> <47789A67.2070100@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 31/12/2007, at 6:29 PM, Brendan Scott wrote: >> A report by the Australia Institute in 2003 showed 84 per cent of >> boys >> and 60 per cent of girls using the internet had experienced unwanted >> exposure to sexual material. > > Why would this figure be gender dependent? I can imagine why looking back to my time as a young male but I would have expected the percentages to be in the reverse order with the male figure being more like 5% :-0 Tony phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me at Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry at alianet.alia.org.au http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From rene.lk at libertus.net Tue Jan 1 12:41:52 2008 From: rene.lk at libertus.net (Irene Graham) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 11:41:52 +1000 Subject: [LINK] Onus on providers to clean up web content In-Reply-To: <4778DAE2.8090908@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <200811114152.023289@c990> On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 23:04:50 +1100, Brendan Scott wrote: > Irene Graham wrote: >> On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 18:35:18 +1100, Ivan Trundle wrote: >> >>> On 31/12/2007, at 6:29 PM, Brendan Scott wrote: >>>> Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: >>>>> Onus on providers to clean up web content >>>> [] >>>>> A report by the Australia Institute in 2003 showed 84 per cent >>>>> of boys >>>>> and 60 per cent of girls using the internet had experienced >>>>> unwanted exposure to sexual material. >>>>> >>>> Why would this figure be gender dependent? >>>> >>> The key word here is 'unwanted' perhaps, which might explain it... >>> >> Probably given the 'boys' and 'girls' surveyed by Newspoll for the >> Australia Institute were aged 16-17 years and the question asked was >> "When using the Internet yourself, have you ever seen sex sites >> accidentally or when you didn't mean to?" > > Seems to go against stereotypes - ie girls more likely to want such > material. Maybe there is a gender difference in interacting w. the > internet? Girls are better at not chancing upon it? Boys are falsely > modest? No, but I can now see my brief comment sounded like that, sorry. What I meant was that imo 16-17 yo males ("boys") are more likely than "girls" to be intentionally searching for "sex sites" and are therefore more likely to see sites that they "didn't mean to" as distinct from entirely accidentally, e.g. intentionally seeking pictures of naked bodies and, without meaning to, finding pictures of e.g. extreme/disturbing sexual practices/whatever. Also, the AI report itself (p.18 of the paper version) states that a possible explanation for the higher figure re "boys" is that: "some boys may be willing to admit to accidental exposure but not deliberate searching for sex sites and boys' greater deliberate use of Internet sex sites may therefore feed into an over-reporting of accidental exposure". Other survey figures in the AI report appear to support the above... Another question asked was "Have you ever searched for or looked at sex sites on the Internet on purpose?". 38% of boys and 2% of girls said yes. So of the boys surveyed, 84% had seen sites accidentally and 38% had seen sites deliberately. Hence a proportion of those who saw sites accidentally apparently also admitted to deliberate exposure, and that number seems to me to be 22% (i.e. 100%-84%=16% without accidental exposure. 38% deliberate -16% without accidental exposure = 22%). Then, if one takes that 22% off the 84%, one is left with 62% of "boys" with accidental exposure who had not deliberately looked for "sex sites". Remarkably close to the figure of 60% of girls with accidental exposure. (If I appear to be overlooking some aspect in that analysis, please do point it out - I can't see any other way to interpret the figures). Whether a figure of even 60% accidental exposure has any resemblance to reality is an open question. It's in stark contrast to figures in an academic study report issued in Feb 2003 (AI report issued March 2003), which found that: "Twenty-five percent of youth had unwanted exposure to sexual pictures on the Internet in the past year". However, the difference may be due to the AI having Newspoll ask 200 16-17 year olds if they had *ever* seen *sex sites* accidentally or when they didn't mean to, while the US study asked 1507 10-17 year olds if they had had "one or more unwanted exposures to sexual pictures while online in the *past year*" (emphasis added). That report also presents the findings of a much broader range of survey questions than the AI survey, and it also details methodology etc (unlike the AI report). (The latter report was on the findings of a survey undertaken by the Crimes against Children Research Center ("CCRC"), University of New Hampshire, titled "The Exposure of Youth to Unwanted Sexual Material on the Internet" A National Survey of Risk, Impact, and Prevention" (Mitchell Finkelhor & Wolak, 2003). The funding for the CCRC study was provided by the (USA) National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. http://www.unh.edu/ccrc/pdf/Exposure_risk.pdf ) Imo, the AI survey, with its very few but broadly phrased survey questions, can readily be perceived to have had the sole intention of obtaining sensational figures to support its campaign for mandatory ISP blocking. I also consider it pertinent that one of the co-authors of the AI report, Clive Hamilton, had been publicly saying for some 9 months before issue of the AI report that: "For all of the hype, the information superhighway is principally a conduit for pornography." [1] I don't find surveys/report issued by people with such an opinion in the least bit credible. Irene [1] Quoted from: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/05/13/1021002429844.html http://evatt.org.au/publications/papers/34.html http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=894 From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Tue Jan 1 14:03:35 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 14:03:35 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Onus on providers to clean up web content In-Reply-To: <200811114152.023289@c990> References: <4778DAE2.8090908@optusnet.com.au> <200811114152.023289@c990> Message-ID: <6hhft4$et5vq@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> At 12:41 PM 1/01/2008, Irene Graham wrote: > "For all of the hype, the information superhighway is principally a >conduit for pornography." [1] > >I don't find surveys/report issued by people with such an opinion in the >least bit credible. Hype it is. The minister, Conroy, put anyone who questioned the policy as supporting distribution of kiddie pron. When will the world start to think again, particularly those 'in charge' of the place? It is just as silly to attack those who question one's policies in such extreme manner on this issue as it is for the anti-war issue. I was going to email him pointing out his stupidity in doing so, but I figured he'd just call me a kiddie pron promoter. Jan Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From brd at iimetro.com.au Tue Jan 1 14:50:49 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 14:50:49 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Minister warned on p*** filters Message-ID: <4779B899.3040900@iimetro.com.au> Minister warned on p*** filters Yuko Narushima January 1, 2008 SMH I tried to send this article to Link, but it would appear that someone's filters have censored it. The URL is http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/minister-warned-on-####-filters/2007/12/31/1198949746454.html but the original probably won't get through either. Just replace #### by that naughty word. Ironic, ain't it? -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au Tue Jan 1 15:28:33 2008 From: sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au (steve jenkin) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 15:28:33 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Minister warned on p*** filters In-Reply-To: <4779B899.3040900@iimetro.com.au> References: <4779B899.3040900@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <4779C171.6080107@canb.auug.org.au> Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote on 1/1/08 2:50 PM: Testing the URL from 'exetel' > Minister warned on p*** filters > Yuko Narushima > January 1, 2008 > SMH > > I tried to send this article to Link, but it would appear that > someone's filters have censored it. > > The URL is > http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/minister-warned-on-####-filters/2007/12/31/1198949746454.html > > > but the original probably won't get through either. Just replace #### > by that naughty word. > > Ironic, ain't it? > -- Steve Jenkin, Info Tech, Systems and Design Specialist. 0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915) PO Box 48, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au http://members.tip.net.au/~sjenkin From brd at iimetro.com.au Tue Jan 1 15:52:43 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 15:52:43 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Minister warned on p*** filters In-Reply-To: <4779C171.6080107@canb.auug.org.au> References: <4779B899.3040900@iimetro.com.au> <4779C171.6080107@canb.auug.org.au> Message-ID: <4779C71B.7060503@iimetro.com.au> Testing the URL from iinet. Just to clarify, I originally sent the whole article to Link. steve jenkin wrote: > Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote on 1/1/08 2:50 PM: > > Testing the URL from 'exetel' > > >>Minister warned on p*** filters >>Yuko Narushima >>January 1, 2008 >>SMH >> >>I tried to send this article to Link, but it would appear that >>someone's filters have censored it. >> >>The URL is >>http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/minister-warned-on-####-filters/2007/12/31/1198949746454.html >> >> >>but the original probably won't get through either. Just replace #### >>by that naughty word. >> >>Ironic, ain't it? >> > > > -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Tue Jan 1 15:58:29 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 15:58:29 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Minister warned on p*** filters In-Reply-To: <4779B899.3040900@iimetro.com.au> References: <4779B899.3040900@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: At 14:50 +1100 1/1/08, Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: >I tried to send this article to Link, but it would appear that >someone's filters have censored it. > >Minister warned on p*** filters >The URL is >http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/minister-warned-on-####-filters/2007/12/31/1198949746454.html > >but the original probably won't get through either. Just replace >#### by that naughty word. > >Ironic, ain't it? Ironic, but also interesting, maybe even disturbing. Bernard, could you send to link the evidence that leads you to infer that "someone's filters have censored [your initial post to link]"? We don't know what dynamic spam filters are doing at any given time, whether operating at ISP-level and/or locally. But would sensible dynamic rules *really* block all emails containing that string, even that word?? I posted the same article-title and URL to the privacy list at 12:20 today. I received my own copy, and no bounce-message, so I assume it got through to all subscribers okay - although of course I don't *know* that. (Jan?). Aside: My local filters put your email in my 'Spam Maybe' mailbox. I *think* that was based on the filter that picks up . -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From brd at iimetro.com.au Tue Jan 1 16:15:28 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 16:15:28 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Minister warned on p*** filters In-Reply-To: References: <4779B899.3040900@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <4779CC70.7060708@iimetro.com.au> Roger, the only evidence I have is that the original posting never arrived, but the subsequent one with the modified URL did. As you have probably seen the second one I sent, which was a rely to Steve Jenkin's did arrive. I'll try resending the original to Link. Roger Clarke wrote: > At 14:50 +1100 1/1/08, Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > >> I tried to send this article to Link, but it would appear that >> someone's filters have censored it. >> >> Minister warned on p*** filters >> The URL is >> http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/minister-warned-on-####-filters/2007/12/31/1198949746454.html >> >> >> but the original probably won't get through either. Just replace #### >> by that naughty word. >> >> Ironic, ain't it? > > > Ironic, but also interesting, maybe even disturbing. > > Bernard, could you send to link the evidence that leads you to infer > that "someone's filters have censored [your initial post to link]"? > > We don't know what dynamic spam filters are doing at any given time, > whether operating at ISP-level and/or locally. But would sensible > dynamic rules *really* block all emails containing that string, even > that word?? > > I posted the same article-title and URL to the privacy list at 12:20 > today. I received my own copy, and no bounce-message, so I assume it > got through to all subscribers okay - although of course I don't *know* > that. (Jan?). > > Aside: My local filters put your email in my 'Spam Maybe' mailbox. I > *think* that was based on the filter that picks up . > > -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From jwhit at janwhitaker.com Tue Jan 1 16:12:38 2008 From: jwhit at janwhitaker.com (Jan Whitaker) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 16:12:38 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Onus on providers to clean up web content Message-ID: <6hhft4$eu03o@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> reply from Internode. Seems reasonable to me. >Hi Jan, > >Thank you for your support request with Internode. > >The filtering system proposed by the Communications Minister Stephen >Conroy has yet to materialise in any real sense, and is still just a >proposal. As such, there is no filter in place that we can opt you >out of, however we will certainly keep your comments on file. > >Further, I would recommend that you direct your concerns directly to >Minister Conroy or your local member. The only problem with contacting my local member is that he's part of the Nanny brigade - ex-AFP. Jan Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Tue Jan 1 16:20:51 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 16:20:51 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Minister warned on p*** filters In-Reply-To: References: <4779B899.3040900@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <6hhft4$eu17i@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> At 03:58 PM 1/01/2008, Roger Clarke wrote: >I posted the same article-title and URL to the privacy list at 12:20 >today. I received my own copy, and no bounce-message, so I assume >it got through to all subscribers okay - although of course I don't >*know* that. (Jan?). Yep, the whole thing came through on the privacy list to me, once from you and once BRDs copy that did make it through to me via link as well. Must be some individuals that caused the bounce, not either list. Jan Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From rene.lk at libertus.net Tue Jan 1 16:38:56 2008 From: rene.lk at libertus.net (Irene Graham) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 15:38:56 +1000 Subject: [LINK] Onus on providers to clean up web content In-Reply-To: <6hhft4$eu03o@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <200811153856.703873@c990> On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 16:12:38 +1100, Jan Whitaker wrote: > reply from Internode. Seems reasonable to me. Internode certainly knew about this ridiculous proposal before, they're one of the ISPs that have been speaking out for some months about the impracticality/unworkability of ISP blocking. ISP-level filters 'unworkable', 10 August 10 http://www.smh.com.au/news/web/isplevel-filters-unworkable/2007/08/10/11865 30595566.html Critics slam net block plan, September 25, 2007 http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,24897,22475465-15306,00.html Irene From brd at iimetro.com.au Tue Jan 1 17:16:44 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:16:44 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Minister warned on p*** filters Message-ID: <4779DACC.5040605@iimetro.com.au> Test of subject line -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From brd at iimetro.com.au Tue Jan 1 17:17:42 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:17:42 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Minister warned on porn filters In-Reply-To: <4779DACC.5040605@iimetro.com.au> References: <4779DACC.5040605@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <4779DB06.4050108@iimetro.com.au> Test of subject line -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From brd at iimetro.com.au Tue Jan 1 17:18:15 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:18:15 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Minister warned on p*** filters In-Reply-To: <4779CC70.7060708@iimetro.com.au> References: <4779B899.3040900@iimetro.com.au> <4779CC70.7060708@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <4779DB27.1020807@iimetro.com.au> Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > > > Roger, the only evidence I have is that the original posting never > arrived, but the subsequent one with the modified URL did. > > As you have probably seen the second one I sent, which was a rely to > Steve Jenkin's did arrive. > > I'll try resending the original to Link. I resent the original and it (so far) hasn't arrived although the one I am replying to now did. My SMTP is actually , not iinet (or iimetro) so maybe it's getting caught up in bigpond filters. On the other hand, I've not seen any emails to Link with the original naughty word in the subject line. I'll try a test email just before I send this. D'oh, forgot to change the subject line, so two may or may not arrive. -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au Tue Jan 1 17:59:37 2008 From: sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au (steve jenkin) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:59:37 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Minister warned on porn filters In-Reply-To: <4779DB06.4050108@iimetro.com.au> References: <4779DACC.5040605@iimetro.com.au> <4779DB06.4050108@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <4779E4D9.3020501@canb.auug.org.au> Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote on 1/1/08 5:17 PM: > Test of subject line > TEST reply - after full text sent. -- Steve Jenkin, Info Tech, Systems and Design Specialist. 0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915) PO Box 48, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au http://members.tip.net.au/~sjenkin From brd at iimetro.com.au Tue Jan 1 18:18:57 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 18:18:57 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Minister warned on p*** filters In-Reply-To: <4779DEB1.7010300@canb.auug.org.au> References: <4779B899.3040900@iimetro.com.au> <4779C171.6080107@canb.auug.org.au> <4779C6CA.1020405@iimetro.com.au> <4779DEB1.7010300@canb.auug.org.au> Message-ID: <4779E961.6060307@iimetro.com.au> Steve Jenkin has just sent four emails The original full text that I tried to send - to link and cc to me. Subject line with the naughty word - to link and cc to me. The only ones I got were the ccs. The finger is starting to point at ANU filters -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From brd at iimetro.com.au Tue Jan 1 18:22:31 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 18:22:31 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Minister warned on p*** filters Message-ID: <4779EA37.80600@iimetro.com.au> **** Steve Jenkin has just sent four emails The original full text that I tried to send - to link and cc to me. Subject line with the naughty word - to link and cc to me. The only ones I got were the ccs. The finger is starting to point at ANU filters **** Correct that. I just got the second one, the one with the Subject line only -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From brd at iimetro.com.au Tue Jan 1 18:28:52 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 18:28:52 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Minister warned on p*** filters In-Reply-To: <4779EA37.80600@iimetro.com.au> References: <4779EA37.80600@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <4779EBB4.2010101@iimetro.com.au> Just to remove a potential ambiguity, the one I did NOT get was the full text sent to Link. This is the same behaviour that I experienced, it seems to be the body of the email that is getting caught. Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > **** > Steve Jenkin has just sent four emails > > The original full text that I tried to send - to link and cc to me. > > Subject line with the naughty word - to link and cc to me. > > The only ones I got were the ccs. > > The finger is starting to point at ANU filters > **** > > Correct that. I just got the second one, the one with the Subject line only > -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au Tue Jan 1 19:08:46 2008 From: sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au (steve jenkin) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 19:08:46 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Minister warned on p*** filters In-Reply-To: <4779B899.3040900@iimetro.com.au> References: <4779B899.3040900@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <4779F50E.6030308@canb.auug.org.au> Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote on 1/1/08 2:50 PM: > Minister warned on p*** filters Yuko Narushima January 1, 2008 SMH > > http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/minister-warned-on-####-filters/2007/12/31/1198949746454.html > > > > > > [LONG] It never ceases to amaze me, the Pollie attitude to P**n and 'Spam' & it's friend, malware. P**n is "bad, bad, bad" and Pollies show very high interest - including policy & legislation. Lots of angst & trashing around about eradicating something that 2,000+ years of writing/publishing shows can't be controlled/legislated away. The physical publishing world & (cable) TV show that the *only* effective is means of control is to allow-but-license. Same as tobacco. Never going to eradicate, only control. Unless every page is 'classified' at source (meta-tags), an unforgeable internet 'proof-of-age' card is created, there are criminal penalties for subverting the system, forging identities or mis-classifying pages, there are no legal jurisdictions outside 'the system' [e.g. on the high-seas], *and* all browsers enforce 'the rules' - and browsers can't be built/written to ignore them: [I think that's a list of sufficient & necessary conditions], Only then will there be the *technical* means to control, not eradicate, 'restricted content'. i.e. It's *impossible* to eliminate 'restricted content', and provably so... Meanwhile, Spam & malware that rides on it, consumes vast amounts of resource and via malware, damage. Spam is a quadruple whammy: - uses capacity of links & servers - consumes PC resources in botnets - wastes admin & firewall time/resources - wastes recipients time/resources Nobody has ever made a public case that 'spam' is beneficial to anyone but the organised crime rings that enable it. I'm even unconvinced that the suckers who try to peddle their wares through spam make anything. I'd also guess many sales are with card-fraud... [no information on that] For me, this is a classic case of 'inversion' - the Pollies rail against that which can't be controlled and is of limited impact, and ignore a high-impact problem that could be controlled. In the late-80's, "junk fax" was a real and growing problem. It almost completely evaporated after a British case where the plaintiff sued for the cost of the paper used... [can't find the reference] There are now strong "junk fax" laws in the UK and USA. 'spam' *could* be eliminated via technical means, and in a reasonably short time despite the many previous attempts/progams.. Or perhaps, because of them - what won't work is getting more clear. Some reasons 'spam' continues to be a problem: - "Walled gardens" don't work. - No single approach is going to work. - Like 'art', there is no universal definition and not everyone considers all spam to be evil... - SMTP over port 25 can never be 'spam free', even with schemes like DomainKeys etc ... because: - the sender identity can be spoofed trivially. it can't be positively authenticated/certified. - any IP number can act as an MTA - message headers can be spoofed trivially - the original message content can't be verified. - but probably because it is not illegal everywhere and perpetrators are difficult to bring to book. 'spam' exists solely because of tassid assumptions made in 1980 (RFC 772) [X.400 1984/88 made the same assumptions.] They followed from years of uucp & Usenet experience: - 'hosts' are controlled, and by responsible administrators - Only trustworthy/certified UA & MTA programs are used. - Only MTA's assign message headers. Spoofed headers from a malicious UA will be discarded. - All MTA's can be trusted. [Hosts that are MTA's can be authenticated] - user identities cannot be forged. (breaking into an account is different) - rogue users cannot access privileged functions - like send/recv on port 25. These assumptions were all invalidated when the first DOS PC was connected to the Internet. The characteristics of any 'solution' to spam: - there will always be unverified port 25 traffic. It cannot be eliminated, but can be dropped by firewalls. - An End-to-End solution is required for verified/authenticated messages. - these two goals are incompatible. - verified messages can be sent out to the 'port 25' addressees - no perfect scheme exists to 'untaint' inbound 'port 25' messages - The following are needed: - positive user authentication - by UA and 1st-MTA - non-spoofable message headers & verifiable content. - only known/trusted MTA's allowed. eg. issued X.509 certs - 1st-MTA rejection of invalid messages - global identity revocation of rogue MTA's and users - selectable sender identities - user selectable network - trusted messaging or wild-wild-web If all the elements in "junk e-mail" - originating machine, user identify, 1st-MTA - can be definitively identified & owners traced, then existing "spam" laws could be enforceable in the same way that "junk fax" legislation has been highly successful. And the results will be the same, even in a 'trusted messaging' world: *Good*, but never perfect. In Real Life, people are devious and always testing ways to make a quick buck. Caveat: There are already many tightly controlled messaging environments. The rate of "junk messages" reduces with the tightness of control, the severity of penalties and the formality of usage rules. -- Steve Jenkin, Info Tech, Systems and Design Specialist. 0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915) PO Box 48, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au http://members.tip.net.au/~sjenkin From rick at praxis.com.au Tue Jan 1 20:51:43 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 20:51:43 +1100 Subject: [LINK] What is going on here? [was: Reprise: Minister warned on ZZZZ filters] In-Reply-To: <4779D6BB.6050002@praxis.com.au> References: <4779D6BB.6050002@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <477A0D2F.10302@praxis.com.au> Linekrs, Something strange is going on here. I posted the following to link about four hours ago. This time around I have changed p**n to ZZZZ ... It has not shown up on the list. Is there a ghost in the machine? Original below. I am CCing to BRD and SJ. cheers rickw Rick Welykochy wrote: > Here is the entire article as posted on the SMH website today. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Minister warned on ZZZZ filters > > Yuko Narushima > January 1, 2008 > Advertisement > > LABOR'S plan to introduce mandatory internet filters will send Australia > down a censorship path similar to China's and Singapore's, but will not > stop computer-savvy children looking at banned sites, according to the > NSW Council for Civil Liberties. > > The council's vice-president, David Bernie, said the Federal Government > plan was political grandstanding. It would force users to ask internet > service providers to lift a block on extremely violent and ZZZZographic > sites. > > "It is a gimmick," Mr Bernie said. "It's been sold to the public as > protecting children from ZZZZography but what is dangerous about these > filters is that parents will think their children can't access > ZZZZography on the internet when in fact they can. > > "Anybody who's computer-savvy can work their way around these filters in > about two minutes maximum," he said. > > Mr Bernie said the filters would lull parents into a false sense of > security and discourage them from monitoring their children's internet > activities. Only adults would be restricted by the filters, he said. > > "Will there be some database of people who want to access adult > ZZZZography, which is legal in most democratic countries?" > > "It has serious implications for freedom of expression. When you start > filtering material on political grounds - even if the material is > objectionable or quite awful - we're heading in the same direction as > China and Singapore." > > The Telecommunications Minister, Stephen Conroy, pointed to European > examples of successful restrictions to quell fears the move could slow > connection speeds. > > "Labor makes no apologies to those who argue that any regulation of the > internet is like going down the Chinese road," Mr Conroy said yesterday. > "If people equate freedom of speech with watching child ZZZZography, > then the Rudd Labor Government is going to disagree." > > Britain and Scandinavia had successful internet restrictions, he said. > "The internet hasn't ground to a halt in the UK, it hasn't ground to a > halt in Scandinavian countries and it's not grinding the internet to a > halt in Europe." > > The measures would ensure only a "clean" feed of internet material was > reaching schools and households and a list of banned sites would be > prepared by the Australian Communications and Media Authority, he said. > > In March 2006, the then communications minister, Helen Coonan, said she > rejected filtering because it would slow speeds for all users without > effectively protecting children. A national system could cost $45 > million to set up and $33 million a year to maintain, she said. -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services You got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propoganda. -- George W Bush From kim at holburn.net Tue Jan 1 21:13:23 2008 From: kim at holburn.net (Kim Holburn) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 11:13:23 +0100 Subject: [LINK] Minister warned on porn filters In-Reply-To: <4779B899.3040900@iimetro.com.au> References: <4779B899.3040900@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <581C89A2-302C-48C8-803E-0F31DE1EF47C@holburn.net> I would say it's ANU's spam filters cutting in. Tony would be able to tell unless the spam filters decide the email is so bad it's dropped without bothering to tell anyone. Believe me you all want the spam filters in place, you really really do. The false positives are a bitch though. On 2008/Jan/01, at 4:50 AM, Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > Minister warned on porn filters > Yuko Narushima > January 1, 2008 > SMH > > The URL is > http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/minister-warned-on-porn-filters/ > 2007/12/31/1198949746454.html -- Kim Holburn IT Network & Security Consultant Ph: +39 06 855 4294 M: +39 3494957443 mailto:kim at holburn.net aim://kimholburn skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny. -- Lloyd Biggle, Jr. Analog, Apr 1961 From ivan at itrundle.com Tue Jan 1 21:32:04 2008 From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 21:32:04 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Minister warned on porn filters In-Reply-To: <581C89A2-302C-48C8-803E-0F31DE1EF47C@holburn.net> References: <4779B899.3040900@iimetro.com.au> <581C89A2-302C-48C8-803E-0F31DE1EF47C@holburn.net> Message-ID: On 01/01/2008, at 9:13 PM, Kim Holburn wrote: > I would say it's ANU's spam filters cutting in. Tony would be able > to tell unless the spam filters decide the email is so bad it's > dropped without bothering to tell anyone. That's bad enough. The word 'porn' should not exclude a mail message from distribution, unless the ANU is living in the 19th century. > Believe me you all want the spam filters in place, you really really > do. The false positives are a bitch though. I disagree. A poor spam filter is worse than none at all. I get over 1500 spam messages a day in one account, with no false positives (any rarely more than 2 or 3 a week that are really spam getting through), and certainly nothing as preposterous as cutting out any message with the string 'porn' embedded. The filter that I choose to use is intelligent enough to work this out. What irks me is that weak filters make bold assumptions about what is and what isn't spam, based on loose and poorly constructed rules and presumptions. I'll never forget the day that an ex-boss complained bitterly about her exclusion from various mailing lists and more, based purely on the fact that the first six letters of her e-mail address just happened to be 'virgin'. iT From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Tue Jan 1 21:39:28 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 21:39:28 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Minister warned on porn filters In-Reply-To: <581C89A2-302C-48C8-803E-0F31DE1EF47C@holburn.net> References: <4779B899.3040900@iimetro.com.au> <581C89A2-302C-48C8-803E-0F31DE1EF47C@holburn.net> Message-ID: <6hhft4$f02vs@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> At 09:13 PM 1/01/2008, Kim Holburn wrote: >I would say it's ANU's spam filters cutting in. Tony would be able >to tell unless the spam filters decide the email is so bad it's >dropped without bothering to tell anyone. If it's ANU, how come I got all of the messages, including the first one BRD posted? Jan Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From rick at praxis.com.au Tue Jan 1 21:48:54 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 21:48:54 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Minister warned on porn filters In-Reply-To: References: <4779B899.3040900@iimetro.com.au> <581C89A2-302C-48C8-803E-0F31DE1EF47C@holburn.net> Message-ID: <477A1A96.4090507@praxis.com.au> Ivan Trundle wrote: > I'll never forget the day that an ex-boss complained bitterly about her > exclusion from various mailing lists and more, based purely on the fact > that the first six letters of her e-mail address just happened to be > 'virgin'. I see your virgin and up you by one pair of pants or panties. We were one day looking up pantone colours, but the sites kept getting blocked. The reason, we later found out, was that the prefix 'pant-' was on a very simplistic blacklist. GIGO anyone? cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services You got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda. -- George W Bush From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Tue Jan 1 22:11:50 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 22:11:50 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Minister warned on porn filters In-Reply-To: References: <4779B899.3040900@iimetro.com.au> <581C89A2-302C-48C8-803E-0F31DE1EF47C@holburn.net> Message-ID: >On 01/01/2008, at 9:13 PM, Kim Holburn wrote: >> Believe me you all want the spam filters in place, you really >>really do. The false positives are a bitch though. At 21:32 +1100 1/1/08, Ivan Trundle wrote: >I disagree. A poor spam filter is worse than none at all. ... >The filter that I choose to use is intelligent enough to work this out. My local supplier, Apex, implemented a service a few years ago (at least as long ago as the beginning of 2006. I'd have to dig into archives to find out the actual start-date). I request that everything be passed through, but flagged in the Subject: header. I've yet to detect a false-positive. (I used to examine the headers assiduously, but after a long while with not a single instance detected, you can't keep the enthusiasm up). It doesn't seem to declare in the message which service it is. Rather unsporting, what? The most recent entry in the box is below: From: Brenda To: roger.clarke at xamax.com.au Subject: *** POSSIBLE SPAM *** Why you do not write? Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 11:41:55 +0200 Spam detection software, running on the system "arnold.apex.net.au", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: You remember m?e Id o! Here my page jiapesrjj: http://du-iai.nm.ru [...] Content analysis details: (9.5 points, 6.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.1 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO 3.5 BAYES_99 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 99 to 100% [score: 1.0000] 2.0 RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL RBL: SORBS: sent directly from dynamic IP address [41.243.15.171 listed in dnsbl.sorbs.net] 0.0 RCVD_IN_PBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus PBL [41.243.15.171 listed in zen.spamhaus.org] 1.6 URIBL_SBL Contains an URL listed in the SBL blocklist [URIs: nm.ru] 2.2 INVALID_MSGID Message-Id is not valid, according to RFC 2822 Return-Path: X-Original-To: roger.clarke at xamax.com.au Delivered-To: rclarke at apex.net.au Received: from wg.com (dsl-243-15-171.telkomadsl.co.za [41.243.15.171]) by mail.apex.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E73A3B00C4 for ; Tue, 1 Jan 2008 20:41:54 +1100 (EST) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 11:41:55 +0200 From: Brenda X-Mailer: pdef 7.61 Reply-To: sca1993 at wg.com X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: 1782695492.3776828078 at wg.com To: roger.clarke at xamax.com.au Subject: Why you do not write? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You remember m?e Id o! Here my page jiapesrjj: http://du-iai.nm.ru -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From grove at zeta.org.au Tue Jan 1 22:46:25 2008 From: grove at zeta.org.au (grove at zeta.org.au) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 22:46:25 +1100 (EST) Subject: [LINK] Minister warned on porn filters In-Reply-To: <477A1A96.4090507@praxis.com.au> References: <4779B899.3040900@iimetro.com.au> <581C89A2-302C-48C8-803E-0F31DE1EF47C@holburn.net> <477A1A96.4090507@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Jan 2008, Rick Welykochy wrote: > Ivan Trundle wrote: > >> I'll never forget the day that an ex-boss complained bitterly about her >> exclusion from various mailing lists and more, based purely on the fact >> that the first six letters of her e-mail address just happened to be >> 'virgin'. > > I see your virgin and up you by one pair of pants or panties. > > We were one day looking up pantone colours, but the sites kept getting > blocked. The reason, we later found out, was that the prefix 'pant-' was > on a very simplistic blacklist. > GIGO anyone? I lurk on a forum in the UK for electronic music. They have a word filter that turns "pakistan" into "****stan" because in the UK the altered part is a racist slur. But it makes it extremely difficult to discuss current global matters and it is also a kind of implied slur in being filtered. rachel -- Rachel Polanskis Kingswood, Greater Western Sydney, Australia grove at zeta.org.au http://www.zeta.org.au/~grove/grove.html The price of greatness is responsibility. From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Tue Jan 1 23:11:00 2008 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 23:11:00 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Minister warned on porn filters In-Reply-To: <581C89A2-302C-48C8-803E-0F31DE1EF47C@holburn.net> References: <4779B899.3040900@iimetro.com.au> <581C89A2-302C-48C8-803E-0F31DE1EF47C@holburn.net> Message-ID: On 01/01/2008, at 9:13 PM, Kim Holburn wrote: > Tony would be able to tell unless the spam filters decide the email > is so bad it's dropped without bothering to tell anyone. The mailman software which runs link is to automatically reject non member postings matching - ^.*@hanmail\.net ^.*\.kr ^.*@hananet\.net ^.*sina\.com ^.*jp ^.*ru ^.*cn ^.*ca ^.*anz\.com ^.*tw ^.*\.de Other non member postings get sent to me for consideration. There are few and spamsieve working with Apple Mail filters the spam. I don't think ANU's spam filtering comes into play but I could be wrong. Tony phone : 02 6241 7659 mobile: 04 1242 0397 -- ~| mailto: tony at Tony-Barry.emu.id.au -- \@ or tony.barry at alianet.alia.org.au -- _\\/\% http://tony-barry.emu.id.au GT3 ____(*)__(*)___ Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Restore From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Tue Jan 1 23:09:35 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 23:09:35 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Minister warned on porn filters In-Reply-To: References: <4779B899.3040900@iimetro.com.au> <581C89A2-302C-48C8-803E-0F31DE1EF47C@holburn.net> Message-ID: <6hhft4$f0nfv@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> At 09:32 PM 1/01/2008, Ivan Trundle wrote: >fact that the first six letters of her e-mail address just happened to >be 'virgin'. I'll bet Virgin airlines and anyone named Virginia or living in the state of Virginia are spitting chips over that one. Jan Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Tue Jan 1 23:14:06 2008 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 23:14:06 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Testing the word "porn" Message-ID: <09081C61-AA4F-43E7-BDC3-DDDE7204BBE1@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Let's see what happens Tony phone : 02 6241 7659 mobile: 04 1242 0397 -- ~| mailto: tony at Tony-Barry.emu.id.au -- \@ or tony.barry at alianet.alia.org.au -- _\\/\% http://tony-barry.emu.id.au GT3 ____(*)__(*)___ Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Restore From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Wed Jan 2 07:55:42 2008 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 07:55:42 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Testing the naughty word in the body Message-ID: <2F489B8F-6FC9-4D1D-ACD2-46D3133B61A7@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Porn and porn twice. From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Wed Jan 2 08:18:19 2008 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 08:18:19 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Test of porn in body or subject Message-ID: <0E2B1EF9-8D0D-4B4A-8B62-13A16BFCA031@tony-barry.emu.id.au> I posted two messages with porn in the body and another in the subject line. Both were delivered to me. It seems they are not being filtered by ANU. I suggest that a check of the archives will show what is getting to the list. For instance "porn" in the body is making it through ok . Tony phone : 02 6241 7659 mobile: 04 1242 0397 -- ~| mailto: tony at Tony-Barry.emu.id.au -- \@ or tony.barry at alianet.alia.org.au -- _\\/\% http://tony-barry.emu.id.au GT3 ____(*)__(*)___ Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Restore From brd at iimetro.com.au Wed Jan 2 08:44:58 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 08:44:58 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Test of porn in body or subject In-Reply-To: <0E2B1EF9-8D0D-4B4A-8B62-13A16BFCA031@tony-barry.emu.id.au> References: <0E2B1EF9-8D0D-4B4A-8B62-13A16BFCA031@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Message-ID: <477AB45A.2000200@iimetro.com.au> I received all the test messages so the problem must be one or more other words, like adult pornography, Stephen Conroy or Helen Coonan. Antony Barry wrote: > I posted two messages with porn in the body and another in the subject > line. Both were delivered to me. It seems they are not being filtered > by ANU. I suggest that a check of the archives will show what is > getting to the list. For instance "porn" in the body is making it > through ok January/076808.html>. > > Tony > > > phone : 02 6241 7659 > mobile: 04 1242 0397 -- ~| > mailto: tony at Tony-Barry.emu.id.au -- \@ > or tony.barry at alianet.alia.org.au -- _\\/\% > http://tony-barry.emu.id.au GT3 ____(*)__(*)___ > Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Restore > > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link at mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Wed Jan 2 09:00:16 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 09:00:16 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Email Fraud, Very Naive Financial Services Corporation Message-ID: Stewart Carter's eCommerce Report 14, 18 of 21 Dec 07 http://www.ecommercereport.com.au/ reports on an interesting case in the Vic Supreme Court. In McGiddy v. Collins House, NMMT and Axa, a bloke is having to sue to get $700,000 of his super fund back. (No sign of it on AustLII yet). Collins House received an email in 2005, requesting that the money be sent to an account in Indonesia. They sent it. The email was not from the account that McGiddy had given them. It was from a Yahoo account. And they took no steps to authenticate it by seeking confirmation from McGiddy through some other channel, such as, for example, the email-address he'd provided to them. Remarkable. -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From brd at iimetro.com.au Wed Jan 2 10:02:03 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 10:02:03 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Rudd online porn-free plan questioned Message-ID: <477AC66B.30402@iimetro.com.au> Rudd online porn-free plan questioned Sue Dunlevy January 02, 2008 Australian IT http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,24897,22997228-15306,00.html A Rudd Government plan to censor internet pornography and violence could undermine another of its election promises - to speed up our internet access. Kevin Rudd promised before the election to force internet service providers to supply a clean feed to households and schools free of "inappropriate" material The Internet Industry Association has warned the downside of censoring access could be a reduction in the speed of access to websites. Mr Rudd promised before the election to force internet service providers to supply a clean feed to households and schools free of "inappropriate" material. Australians who want uncensored access to the web will have to contact their provider and opt out of the service. Communications Minister Stephen Conroy says the clean feed will be achieved by getting the Communications and Media Authority to prepare a blacklist of unsuitable sites. Internet Industry Association spokesman Peter Coroneos said the industry is working closely with the Government on the policy to be trialled later this year. But he warned it could never be completely successful in blocking access to all pornographic sites, just the ones on the blacklist. If new sites were launched that were not included on the blacklist the clean feed would not restrict access to them, he said. "You've got to be aware of the fallibility of the approach," he warned. There were millions of pornographic websites and if all of them were included in the blacklist "there is a potential for slow downs in access to occur", he said. "The more sites you attempt to block the greater the effect on the network performance and speed," he said. This is because every time you type a request into your search engine it will have to be checked against all the sites on the blacklist, he said. In Britain where a clean feed policy is being pursued, only between 200 and 1000 child pornography sites have been included on a blacklist. But if Australia insisted on including millions of general pornography sites and others that include violence it could undermine internet users' speed of access to websites, Mr Coroneos said. A 2005 pilot study carried out by the former Howard government found a clean feed approach could cut down speed of accessing the internet by between 18 to 78 per cent depending on what was being blocked. The Rudd Government campaigned on a platform promising to speed up Australians' access to the worlwide web by rolling out broadband around the country. Mr Coroneos said any clean feed policy would have to be carefully balanced. He said households that really wanted to block out pornographic material would be better off investing in a home based filter system. -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From cas at taz.net.au Wed Jan 2 10:14:12 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 10:14:12 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Minister warned on porn filters In-Reply-To: References: <4779B899.3040900@iimetro.com.au> <581C89A2-302C-48C8-803E-0F31DE1EF47C@holburn.net> <477A1A96.4090507@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <20080101231412.GA7132@taz.net.au> On Tue, Jan 01, 2008 at 10:46:25PM +1100, grove at zeta.org.au wrote: > I lurk on a forum in the UK for electronic music. They have a word > filter that turns "pakistan" into "****stan" because in the UK the > altered part is a racist slur. But it makes it extremely difficult > to discuss current global matters i remember having this argument with management when i worked at an ISP focussing on providing internet access to schools about 10 years ago. they wanted me to configure the proxy servers to block sites with the string 'sex' in any part of the URL. after several days i got them to (very reluctantly) give up on the idea by pointing out the existence of web sites for Essex, Sussex, Middlesex counties in the UK, and dozens of other non-porn sites (the only one of which i can remember now was businessexchange.com), and specific educational sites about sex-related topics. it was an idea they kept coming back to, though....at one point they wanted to still block 'sex' but have a whitelist of exceptions that would be allowed until i (finally) got them to understand that the potentially enormous size of the exception list would be a maintainence nightmare. and 'sex' wasn't the only string they wanted blocked. they couldn't (wouldn't!) understand that it was a fundamentally broken idea no matter how many times i came back with counter-examples for each different string they wanted blocked. single word filtering is stupid, especially when the word is so small that it is likely to be a substring in many other unrelated words. mind you, my own spam filters on my mail server at home have hundreds of rules for deliberately misspelt words used by spammers...i figure that they're either spammers or illiterate morons that i don't want to communicate with anyway. even then, most of the rules are only triggered when there are two or more of the misspelt words in close proximity. these are the rules i have to be most careful about and generally cause me the most problems - it's very easy to block more than you want to. > and it is also a kind of implied slur in being filtered. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ yes, definitely. the message there is that ALL use of the word "paki" and hence "pakistan" is an insult, therefore to be pakistani is a bad thing. in any case, it doesn't take kids long to figure out that "p at ki" and other mis-spellings get past the filter....or even invent a whole new slang based on innocuous words. craig -- craig sanders BOFH excuse #220: Someone thought The Big Red Button was a light switch. From rick at praxis.com.au Wed Jan 2 10:38:03 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 10:38:03 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Rudd online porn-free plan questioned In-Reply-To: <477AC66B.30402@iimetro.com.au> References: <477AC66B.30402@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <477ACEDB.7090608@praxis.com.au> Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > Rudd online porn-free plan questioned > Sue Dunlevy > January 02, 2008 > Australian IT > http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,24897,22997228-15306,00.html Hrmmm ... this one got past the spam filters? What is going on? > Communications Minister Stephen Conroy says the clean feed will be > achieved by getting the Communications and Media Authority to prepare a > blacklist of unsuitable sites. The devil is in the detail. If the blacklist is by IP address, it will definitely fail. IP addresses change all the time. That is one reason we have a DNS with lifetimes stamped onto the names. If the blacklist is by domain name, it will definitely be inadequate and also too broad, e.g. (*) unclean material is found on users.bigpond.com.au/badboy ... if the domain users.bigpond.com.au is blacklisted, hundreds of thousands of bigpond user sites will be blacklisted by mistake (*) similar applies to huge hosting services that store thousands of users under the one domain name (*) similar applies to blogging and social networking sites (*) similar applies to file hosting services such as rapidshare > This is because every time you type a request into your search engine it > will have to be checked against all the sites on the blacklist, he said. More devilish detail. NOTE: web links != content ... I doubt that the results of all search engines, let alone google, will be censored and "rewritten" on the fly. Google does self-censor in China ... is this what Labor wants? If so, why don't they say so? Regardless, there will always be search engines that do not self-censor. There are now and always will be 'clean' websites with links to objectionable material that contain links on the blacklist. So let's not get confused here: search engines aside, LINKS TO BLACKLISTED SITES cannot possibly be censored or cleaned. That would require analysing all content, including encrypted content. as it is sent to the clean feed. Note that an industrious user could re-assemble and publish the list of names on the blacklist simply by a process of elimination whilst using the clean feed. Would this be an offense? If so, why? I repeat: links != content > In Britain where a clean feed policy is being pursued, only between 200 > and 1000 child pornography sites have been included on a blacklist. No wonder Britain can claim that their safe feeds are not slowed down by blocking. Although, if you think about it, a list of, say, 1000000 domains can be searched with a max 21 lookups using binary search, or on average about 11 lookups. Think about that. Every web request, every domain, ftp, email, etc request, will require an extra step of on average 11 lookups in a table of 1 million names. > A 2005 pilot study carried out by the former Howard government found a > clean feed approach could cut down speed of accessing the internet by > between 18 to 78 per cent depending on what was being blocked. Eh? What does it mean to cut down the speed by 50%? By 100%? cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services You got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda. -- George W Bush From lucychili at gmail.com Wed Jan 2 10:56:43 2008 From: lucychili at gmail.com (Janet Hawtin) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 10:26:43 +1030 Subject: [LINK] Minister warned ..Filters v language and cheating v economies online Message-ID: On Jan 2, 2008 9:44 AM, Craig Sanders wrote: > in any case, it doesn't take kids long to figure out that "p at ki" and > other mis-spellings get past the filter....or even invent a whole new > slang based on innocuous words. For an example in action visit an online MMORPG like Runescape which has a strong word based filter on in game chat. http://runescape.com/ (You can create a free account but expect to go through a tutorial before finding yourself in a space where people are speaking. Saturated name space is also an interesting culture shaping factor.) The language used to communicate in those kinds of spaces includes game item shorthand, sms shorthand and rewangled language designed for expression in the negative spaces between the filtered words. The filter in this space also ignores whitespace so normal sentences can be blocked because the combinations of 2 words makes something which gets *****. This does change how people speak/write in those spaces. People are also more adept at enterpreting ***. It is a game going through interesting times at the moment due to people trading game items or accounts for real money. The game company is responding by locking down the game economy which is having interesting impact on the community/play. Changing from a supply demand based economy to a defined value economy will be an interesting social and economic experience for the kids in the western countries where the game is hosted. Watching virtual spaces become more integrated with wider economics makes me want to ask questions about how societies would like to define their economies in online contexts and what these kinds of decisions contribute in shaping our wider cultural interactions. Watching what is effectively a stockmarket crash in a game is interesting, but thinking about how virtual spaces shape economic thinking into the future is the related wider set of questions. Those who create the rules of the game in online spaces do not participate in governance based on social or national interests except in as far as they want to retain good subscriptions. This game has previously banned large numbers of players for cheating by using auto accounts or breaking game rules. They are pretty strong on shaping the character of the space. Kids have grown up watching the rules change around the economies they participate in. The rules are perhaps more changeable and transient. Their civic role is more as a subscriber than a voter or particpant. Perhaps these experiences contribute to future/current adult ideas about what is economically interesting or possible and where control of economies happen. Economies which are contained within bubble of a single company's choices are an interesting phenomenon. Snow Crash was an exploration of these ideas some years before we could practice it. Games answering the challenge of free and open participation with restrictive social controls are an interesting phenomenon. Watching the same choices in play in our wider community makes me wonder what other strategies we are not trying (online, offline or in games) which might help us model free and responsible online communities. Interesting times Janet From gumby_lists at mooh.org Wed Jan 2 11:00:37 2008 From: gumby_lists at mooh.org (Yun Huang Yong) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 11:00:37 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Email Fraud, Very Naive Financial Services Corporation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200801020000.m0200fhI014736@anumail7.anu.edu.au> At 09:00 AM 2/01/2008, Roger Clarke wrote: >Stewart Carter's eCommerce Report 14, 18 of 21 Dec 07 >http://www.ecommercereport.com.au/ >reports on an interesting case in the Vic Supreme Court. > >In McGiddy v. Collins House, NMMT and Axa, a bloke is having to sue >to get $700,000 of his super fund back. (No sign of it on AustLII yet). > >Collins House received an email in 2005, requesting that the money >be sent to an account in Indonesia. They sent it. > >The email was not from the account that McGiddy had given them. It >was from a Yahoo account. And they took no steps to authenticate it >by seeking confirmation from McGiddy through some other channel, >such as, for example, the email-address he'd provided to them. This was published in the AFR on 12 November 2007. --- Client sues planners as super lost to web fraud | By Matthew Drummond A financial planning firm is being sued after it unwittingly transferred $700,000 from a client's superannuation account to fraudsters operating in the Republic of the Congo. Trevor McGiddy is also suing his superannuation trustee, AXA-owned NMMT, in a case that will test the obligations of superannuation trustees and financial planners to prevent their clients from falling victim to identity theft. Mr McGiddy, a South African businessman, deposited $1.5 million into NMMT's iAccess personal superannuation fund in 2005 after working in Australia. Three months later, financial planners Collins House Financial Services, who had set up the account, received an email from a Yahoo! account set up in Mr McGiddy's name. The email requested that $700,000 be transferred to Bank Negara Indonesia. In a writ filed in the Victoriam Supreme Court, Mr McGiddy alleges Collins House Financial Services had a policy of not accepting instructions by email and also knew his personal email was registered to a different account. In fact, the email was sent by fraudsters operating in Congo. Nonetheless, an employee allegedly replied with a standard withdrawal form, which was filled out and returned four days later. The Collins House employee then forwarded the form to the trustee and the money was transferred. Mr McGiddy wants it back and has alleged breaches of care, skill and diligence. His lawyer, Mark Walter of Slater & Gordon, said the fraud was remarkably simple. As Mr McGiddy was a former company executive, many of his personal details, including his signature, were available on the internet. "In the internet age, information is broadly available which can be used by fraudsters," Mr Walter said. "Are the internal processes adopted by financial institutions allowing for the transfer of funds adequate? This was an email from the Congo asking for money to be to sent to Indonesia. Doesn't that cause you to ask questions?" AXA declined to comment as the matter was before the courts. Collins House managing director Dominic Alafaci said the firm was concerned that money had apparently been withdrawn without a client's permission. "We can't make any further comment at this stage other tahn hoping the police catch those responsible for the fraud," he said. At a directions hearing on Friday, NMMT and Collins House were ordered to file their defence by November 30. The parties are expected to return to court after mediation in February next year. Four years ago, the Securitities Industry Research Centre of Asia-Pacific said identity fraud cost large Australian businesses $1.1 billion a year. --- yun -- (__) Share what you know. Yun Huang Yong `\------(oo) Learn what you don't. gumby at mooh.org || (__) --' goosmurf at yahoo.com \|/ ||w--|| \|/ -- From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Wed Jan 2 10:57:42 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 10:57:42 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Rudd online porn-free plan questioned In-Reply-To: <477ACEDB.7090608@praxis.com.au> References: <477AC66B.30402@iimetro.com.au> <477ACEDB.7090608@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <6hhft4$f641f@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> At 10:38 AM 2/01/2008, Rick Welykochy wrote: >>A 2005 pilot study carried out by the former Howard government >>found a clean feed approach could cut down speed of accessing the >>internet by between 18 to 78 per cent depending on what was being blocked. > >Eh? What does it mean to cut down the speed by 50%? By 100%? Don't know what it means in physical terms, but the effect is something that I believe those with children in NSW have mentioned from time to time. Ironically, it's a little like pornography. You can't define it, but you know it when you see it. ;-) Jan Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From ivan at itrundle.com Wed Jan 2 11:33:07 2008 From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 11:33:07 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Minister warned on porn filters In-Reply-To: <6hhft4$f0nfv@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> References: <4779B899.3040900@iimetro.com.au> <581C89A2-302C-48C8-803E-0F31DE1EF47C@holburn.net> <6hhft4$f0nfv@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> Message-ID: On 01/01/2008, at 11:09 PM, Jan Whitaker wrote: > At 09:32 PM 1/01/2008, Ivan Trundle wrote: >> fact that the first six letters of her e-mail address just happened >> to >> be 'virgin'. > > I'll bet Virgin airlines and anyone named Virginia or living in the > state of Virginia are spitting chips over that one. > The subject came up in a Senate Estimates hearing on internet filtering that I attended some years ago, and whilst it amused Brian Harradine at the time, it merely proved to highlight the problems that filtering had then, and still has now. What didn't amuse me was that the thrust of the argument during the hearing went like this: if you didn't use filtering, or advocate filtering, then you're a pornographer, or worse. Not much has changed. iT From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Wed Jan 2 11:38:24 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 11:38:24 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Minister warned on porn filters In-Reply-To: References: <4779B899.3040900@iimetro.com.au> <581C89A2-302C-48C8-803E-0F31DE1EF47C@holburn.net> <6hhft4$f0nfv@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <6hhft4$f6lo7@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> At 11:33 AM 2/01/2008, Ivan Trundle wrote: >What didn't amuse me was that the thrust of the argument during the >hearing went like this: if you didn't use filtering, or advocate >filtering, then you're a pornographer, or worse. > >Not much has changed. ah, yes. Those were the days. I was interviewed for the one and only time on ABC radio Jon Faine's program. Didn't know a thing about his show then. He played devils advocate as he does and I was appalled. I thought I was only doing a public service announcement about a forum at the State Library about the censorship act and it ended up being a debate with Jon about why net filtering was bad. I ran the 'teachable moment' line, I remember, but the rest was pretty much a blur. Conroy is doing the same straw man bad logic thing. Back in the Howard days [that still feels good], it was Senator Dick we had to contend with. Now I guess it's Senator Con? It will be interesting if the meme of 'technology neutral' travels into the Rudd govt, too. Jan Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From rick at praxis.com.au Wed Jan 2 12:28:33 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 12:28:33 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Minister warned on porn filters In-Reply-To: References: <4779B899.3040900@iimetro.com.au> <581C89A2-302C-48C8-803E-0F31DE1EF47C@holburn.net> <6hhft4$f0nfv@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <477AE8C1.7080808@praxis.com.au> Ivan Trundle wrote: > What didn't amuse me was that the thrust of the argument during the > hearing went like this: if you didn't use filtering, or advocate > filtering, then you're a pornographer, or worse. The conditional is easily proven false by disproving its contrapositive. "If you are not a pornographer then you use internet filtering." This is demonstrably false, as is the original statement. cheers rickw p.s. I am reading Gore's "The Assault on Reason" which raises the question of why we so often blandly accept illogical and emotive "arguments" without challenge. -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services You got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda. -- George W Bush From sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au Wed Jan 2 15:14:21 2008 From: sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au (steve jenkin) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 15:14:21 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Found the offending phrase for ANU e-mail filter Message-ID: <477B0F9D.2070409@canb.auug.org.au> Using binary chop, I identified the para in the news article being dropped by the ANU email scanner. I mangled what I thought was the offending phrase and it passed through [below] (c***d pornography) What's interesting: I sent a message who's sole content [message body] was the phrase and it got through. Hmmm. >From the headers ANU is using: Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 Any thoughts or experience with problems like this?? I consider this both repeatable and definitive [i.e. it *is* the ANU mail system] Anyone show that I'm wrong? -------- Original Message -------- Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 15:02:16 +1100 From: steve jenkin Subject: Q3. 2nd para, substiton To: steve jenkin X-Perlmx-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='BODY_SIZE_200_299 0, __CT 0, __CTE 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __USER_AGENT 0, __pbl.spamhaus.org_TIMEOUT , __sbl.spamhaus.org_TIMEOUT ' "Labor makes no apologies to those who argue that any regulation of the internet is like going down the Chinese road," Mr Conroy said yesterday. "If people equate freedom of speech with watching c***d pornography, then the Rudd Labor Government is going to disagree." -- -- Steve Jenkin, Info Tech, Systems and Design Specialist. 0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915) PO Box 48, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au http://members.tip.net.au/~sjenkin From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Wed Jan 2 15:25:29 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 15:25:29 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Oz: 'Labor online strategy slammed' Message-ID: Labor online strategy slammed The Australian Galen English January 02, 2008 http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,24897,22997280-15306,00.html [27 comments by mid-afternoon] opinion IT SOUNDS entirely defensible, at first. The federal Government plans to protect unwary children by blocking violence and pornography on the internet. Yet this simple sounding initiative - barely discussed during the election - is riddled with technical, financial, moral and social complexities. The Government's plan, overseen by Communications Minister Stephen Conroy, would require internet service providers (ISPs) to block undesirable sites on computers accessed by all Australians. A seething Dr Roger Clarke, chair of the Australian Privacy Foundation, bluntly described the proposal as "stupid and inappropriate". He said not only was it unworkable, but it was a sinister blow to an individual's rights to use the internet without censorship. "Not only will it not work, it is quite dangerous to let the Government censor the net and take control out of the hands of parents," Clarke said. "It is an inappropriate thing for them to be doing. Mr Conroy is like a schoolmaster playing god with the Australian population, all because of the dominance of a moral minority." Conroy's view is that the legislation - compared by critics to Chinese-style internet censorship - will only render unseen the most vile and extreme sites. "Labor makes no apologies to those that argue that any regulation on the internet is like going down the Chinese road," Conroy said. "If people equate freedom of speech with watching child pornography, then the Rudd Labor Government is going to disagree." One problem for the Government is that blocking child porn may unintentionally block acceptable sites. The history of the internet is full of such examples; one blogger found that, due to spamware set to block ads for sex drug Cialis, he was unable to publish the word "socialist". Another problem, according to civil libertarians, is that policing the net should be left to parents - not a big brother-style bureaucracy. And, if it is disingenuous to compare Labor's policy to China's malevolent control over web access to its citizens, it is equally disingenuous of Rudd's Government to claim the issue simply relates to child pornography. There are genuine concerns that the Government - backed by morals groups like Family First - will in time extend the powers outside of their intended target area. Also of concern is that, under the Government's plan, users would be permitted to "opt out" of the scheme - and might therefore find themselves listed as possible deviants. Service providers fear any legislation would be "the thin end of the wedge", heralding widespread censorship. Besides, what evidence is there that young children using the web are regularly stumbling across child pornography? Sites used by paedophiles are well hidden and frequently relocated to avoid detection. On a practical level, ISPs fear the mass blocking of sites could slow internet speeds and cost millions of dollars to implement. Crucially, the Government has not explained how such a system would be paid for or who would monitor it. The truth is, despite the policy having been part of Labor's manifesto since 2005, and following claims the Government is "engaged constructively with the sector", no one has the faintest idea how such a system would work. It is expected any future filtered feeds would be based on a current voluntary UK system operated by British Telecom. Sites identified by the Australian Communications and Media Authority (ACMA) would be "blacklisted" and then blocked by the servers. The ability for download speeds to be maintained would depend on the exact number of sites blocked - it is suspected around 2000 sites could cause problems. A user typing in the address would be sent to an error page or possibly - as in Scandinavia - redirected to a police page. However, ISPs fear a system based on key indicator words could rapidly clog the system. In the UK the Internet Watch Foundation has its encrypted list of 1200 paedophile and race-hate sites updated twice a day. Even still, it is unlikely to deter computer savvy paedophiles here from simply relocating their sites or from swapping pictures on message boards or in forums, thus rendering any filter impotent. So far the industry, although eager not to be seen to be dragging their feet on child pornography, has been noticeably reticent in their response to Labor's plans. Internet Industry Association spokesman Peter Coroneos was keen to emphasise the work already being done by service providers in supplying free filters. They are likely to clarify their position after ACMA runs simulated tests on a filtered network later this year. "We obviously want to know if this will have an impact on network performance," Coroneos said. "At the moment we don't know what the extent of it will be, what it will cost, and whether it will set a precedent for other changes. We just don't know if it is feasible." -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Wed Jan 2 15:43:39 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 15:43:39 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Found the offending phrase for ANU e-mail filter In-Reply-To: <477B0F9D.2070409@canb.auug.org.au> References: <477B0F9D.2070409@canb.auug.org.au> Message-ID: At 15:14 +1100 2/1/08, steve jenkin wrote: >"Labor makes no apologies to those who argue that any regulation of the >internet is like going down the Chinese road," Mr Conroy said yesterday. >"If people equate freedom of speech with watching c***d pornography, >then the Rudd Labor Government is going to disagree." Are we sure that the problem isn't "Chinese"? Maybe the traffic's going through a Google filter or a Cisco router with 'enhancements' dictated by the Chinese Government. (:-)} -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From rene.lk at libertus.net Wed Jan 2 15:50:04 2008 From: rene.lk at libertus.net (Irene Graham) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 14:50:04 +1000 Subject: [LINK] Found the offending phrase for ANU e-mail filter In-Reply-To: <477B0F9D.2070409@canb.auug.org.au> Message-ID: <20081214504.799475@c990> On Wed, 02 Jan 2008 15:14:21 +1100, steve jenkin wrote: >> From the headers ANU is using: Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2- >> 8.04 >> > Any thoughts or experience with problems like this?? > > I consider this both repeatable and definitive [i.e. it *is* the ANU > mail system] Anyone show that I'm wrong? This might shed further light: Spam filtering - Information Services at ANU http://information.anu.edu.au/daisy/infoservices/22/255.html It would seem they must have a rule that gives a very high score to that two word phrase and "...Messages with more than a 50% likelihood of being spam are rejected..." Irene From rene.lk at libertus.net Wed Jan 2 16:16:18 2008 From: rene.lk at libertus.net (Irene Graham) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 15:16:18 +1000 Subject: [LINK] Rudd online porn-free plan questioned In-Reply-To: <477ACEDB.7090608@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <200812151618.796205@c990> On Wed, 02 Jan 2008 10:38:03 +1100, Rick Welykochy wrote: [...] >> In Britain where a clean feed policy is being pursued, only between >> 200 and 1000 child pornography sites have been included on a >> blacklist. > > No wonder Britain can claim that their safe feeds are not slowed down > by blocking. Although, if you think about it, a list of, say, 1000000 > domains can be searched with a max 21 lookups using binary search, or > on average about 11 lookups. Think about that. Every web request, every > domain, ftp, email, etc request, will require an extra step of on > average 11 lookups in a table of 1 million names. BT's 'cleanfeed' is a hybrid/two stage system. People with technical understanding/knowledge may find the following paper interesting: "Failures in a Hybrid Content Blocking System" Richard Clayton, University of Cambridge, Computer Laboratory http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rnc1/cleanfeed.pdf "Abstract. Three main methods of content blocking are used on the In- ternet: blocking routes to particular IP addresses, blocking specific URLs in a proxy cache or firewall, and providing invalid data for DNS lookups. The mechanisms have different accuracy/cost trade-offs. This paper ex- amines a hybrid, two-stage system that redirects traffic that might need to be blocked to a proxy cache, which then takes the final decision. This promises an accurate system at a relatively low cost. A British ISP has deployed such a system to prevent access to c***d pornography. However, circumvention techniques can now be employed at both system stages to reduce effectiveness; there are risks from relying on DNS data supplied by the blocked sites; and unhappily, the system can be used as an oracle to determine what is being blocked. Experimental results show that it is straightforward to use the system to compile a list of illegal websites." Richard also remarks: "Although legal and ethical issues prevent most experimentation at present, the attacks are extremely practical and would be straightforward to implement. If CleanFeed is used in the future to block other material, which may be distasteful but is legal to view, then there will be no bar to anyone assessing its effectiveness. It must be expected that knowledge of how to circumvent the system (for all material) will then become widely known and countermeasures will become essential." Irene From lealink at viking.org.au Wed Jan 2 16:32:10 2008 From: lealink at viking.org.au (Lea de Groot) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 15:32:10 +1000 Subject: {Spam?} [LINK] Oz: 'Labor online strategy slammed' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080102153210013738.858b2fb4@viking.org.au> On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 15:25:29 +1100, Roger Clarke wrote: > Labor online strategy slammed > http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,24897,22997280-15306,00.html Hang on, wasn't this legislation about protecting the children against violence and porn? When did child p***ography come into it? I'm confused! (Idiotic pollies!) Lea -- Lea de Groot Brisbane From cas at taz.net.au Wed Jan 2 18:02:15 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 18:02:15 +1100 Subject: {Spam?} [LINK] Oz: 'Labor online strategy slammed' In-Reply-To: <20080102153210013738.858b2fb4@viking.org.au> References: <20080102153210013738.858b2fb4@viking.org.au> Message-ID: <20080102070215.GD7132@taz.net.au> On Wed, Jan 02, 2008 at 03:32:10PM +1000, Lea de Groot wrote: > On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 15:25:29 +1100, Roger Clarke wrote: > > Labor online strategy slammed > > http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,24897,22997280-15306,00.html > > Hang on, wasn't this legislation about protecting the children against > violence and porn? > When did child p***ography come into it? when they realised that the easiest way to dismiss any objections is to label objectors as being child pornographers or paedophiles. > I'm confused! no, just making the mistake of assuming honesty and integrity from politicians. > (Idiotic pollies!) cunning pollies. craig -- craig sanders Magic is always the best solution -- especially reliable magic. From ivan at itrundle.com Wed Jan 2 18:43:41 2008 From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 18:43:41 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Minister warned on porn filters In-Reply-To: <477AE8C1.7080808@praxis.com.au> References: <4779B899.3040900@iimetro.com.au> <581C89A2-302C-48C8-803E-0F31DE1EF47C@holburn.net> <6hhft4$f0nfv@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> <477AE8C1.7080808@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <7AD3B360-3DD2-4AC0-A9C9-7F0B7B47B3E3@itrundle.com> On 02/01/2008, at 12:28 PM, Rick Welykochy wrote: > Ivan Trundle wrote: > >> What didn't amuse me was that the thrust of the argument during the >> hearing went like this: if you didn't use filtering, or advocate >> filtering, then you're a pornographer, or worse. > > The conditional is easily proven false by disproving its > contrapositive. 'Easily' is not a word that comes to mind in the hallowed halls of Parliament House. Nonetheless... > "If you are not a pornographer then you use internet filtering." > > This is demonstrably false, as is the original statement. Demonstrating an untruth is of little benefit to Senate Committee hearings, where logical argument rarely sees the light of day. It's no court of law, and without any of the benefits of an intelligent arbitrator, alas. iT From link at todd.inoz.com Wed Jan 2 19:06:45 2008 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 19:06:45 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Mobile for the Bush Message-ID: <200801020808.m02884pN002556@ah.net> Well interesting experience on our travels. No idea why people complain about Internet access in the Rural and Bush areas. 3G Mobile phone, bluetooth and laptop and you're free to 4WD the mountains and stay online chatting and webcaming as you go. Except - Don't try to make voice calls or receive them! NO CHANCE! We have high speed broadband Internet and no voice at all. There are of course the occasional blackspots in the highways one travels, but they aren't very exciting :) Nothing more than a brief dropout. But voice calls - nadda! From stephen at melbpc.org.au Wed Jan 2 23:46:40 2008 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen at melbpc.org.au) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 12:46:40 GMT Subject: [LINK] legal deposit of websites Message-ID: <20080102124640.AEFB016EA2@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> On the OzTeacherLibrarian list and regarding legal deposit of webpages, Janice Todd writes > Only in Tasmania it seems: > http://www.nla.gov.au/padi/topics/67.html#Aus > Janice Todd Teacher Education Librarian UTS Excellent professional skills, Janice .. "In Tasmania, electronic publications and web pages are included in the broad definition of 'records' that are required for deposit under Section 22 of the Libraries Act 1984. These are stored and made accessible through the State Library of Tasmania's Our Digital Island website." "The State Library of Tasmania is the legal deposit library for the State and has a legislative and moral responsibility to preserve material currently published on the World Wide Web. Our collection process is under constant review, and contributions and input from WWW publishers and content creators is welcomed." To suggest a site for archiving: Thus it seems clear that legal deposit does apply to Tasmanian .edu and org etc websites then. And, well and good i say. One would guess we all know some brilliant school/college/uni and .org etc Australian websites. Maybe a lawful as well as moral responsibility to deposit your website Australia wide may be a 'good thing' How long does it take to tell them? > -----Original Message----- > Sent: Wednesday, 2 January 2008 12:25 AM > To: oztl_net at listserv.csu.edu.au > Subject: [OZTL_NET] legal deposit > > Just a thought, our legal deposit laws may well be > raised with admins, areas and students now & again. > > One wonders if the law applies to webpages, as it's > a $200 fine for not depositing 'public publications' > with the State library. Anyone know about webpages? > > -- > Legal Deposit in Australia > > > What is Legal Deposit > > Legal deposit is a statutory provision which obliges > (any) publisher to deposit copies of their publication > in libraries in the country in which they are published. > > Under the Copyright Act 1968 and various state > Acts, a copy of *any* work published in Australia > must be deposited with the National Library of > Australia, and the appropriate State library. > > Legal deposit extends not only to commercial > publishers but also to private individuals, clubs, > churches, schools, societies and organisations. Legal > deposit of the material is the sole responsibility of > the publisher or author. > > What are the Requirements of Legal Deposit ? > > Definition of a work > > A work can be a book, a periodical such as a newsletter > or annual report, a newspaper, a piece of sheet music, > map, plan, chart, table, program, catalogue, brochure > or pamphlet. > > In some states it also includes material published in > electronic format such as CD's and computer disks. > > Definition of publication > > A work is deemed to have been published if reproductions > of the work or edition have been made available (whether > by sale or otherwise) to the public. > > Copyright > > Legal deposit should not be confused with copyright. > > Under the Copyright Act 1968 copyright protection is > granted automatically in Australia from the moment of > creating a work. There are no formalities to be > completed, such as registration or payment of fees. > > Publication is not necessary for copyright to subsist > in the work .. however, library records and the legal > deposit receipt issued to the publisher by some legal > deposit libraries may be used as evidence of date of > issue. > > The Australian Copyright Council does provide advice > to authors & publishers: http://www.copyright.org.au > -- > > Cheers people > Stephen Loosley > Member Victorian > Institute of Teaching -- Message sent using MelbPC WebMail Server From rick at praxis.com.au Thu Jan 3 07:07:48 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 07:07:48 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Minister warned on porn filters In-Reply-To: <7AD3B360-3DD2-4AC0-A9C9-7F0B7B47B3E3@itrundle.com> References: <4779B899.3040900@iimetro.com.au> <581C89A2-302C-48C8-803E-0F31DE1EF47C@holburn.net> <6hhft4$f0nfv@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> <477AE8C1.7080808@praxis.com.au> <7AD3B360-3DD2-4AC0-A9C9-7F0B7B47B3E3@itrundle.com> Message-ID: <477BEF14.5010304@praxis.com.au> Ivan Trundle wrote: > Demonstrating an untruth is of little benefit to Senate Committee > hearings, where logical argument rarely sees the light of day. It's no > court of law, and without any of the benefits of an intelligent > arbitrator, alas. This is exactly what Gore is discussing in "The Asault on Reason". Logical argument and reasoning are essential for the proper functioning in a democracy. The problems he highlights apply of course to the breaking and broken systems in the USA. But semblances of what he expounds have been seen occurring here during the regime of John Howard. It is apparent to me that Howard has taken on board and implemented some of Bush's worse offenses against democracy. This country must consider itself very lucky that Howard and Co was jettisoned at the last election before major damage was done. In the USA, the damage to their international reputation, and their relationships with their allies (and many enemies) will be a long time in the fixing. We must keep a close eye on Labor to ensure that they do not continue the abuses implemented by Howard. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Say what you will about the miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile. -- Howard W Campbell in Kurt Vonnegut Jr's "Mother Night" From drose at nla.gov.au Thu Jan 3 09:01:23 2008 From: drose at nla.gov.au (Daniel Rose) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 09:01:23 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: Being a Spy Technology Creator In-Reply-To: <477857FE.4000701@canb.auug.org.au> References: <6hhft4$ee47t@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> <477818B8.1050802@nla.gov.au> <477857FE.4000701@canb.auug.org.au> Message-ID: <477C09B3.1090602@nla.gov.au> steve jenkin wrote: > > The line "If I told you, I'd have to kill you" isn't ironic in some > circles :=[ Of course, but those circles don't include anonymous blog posts on zdnet, IMO. > > As for large groups keeping secrets, it is not surprising. > There is a well-known and trivial example - the Cocoa-Cola recipe. > While not known explicitly to a large group, it's been held for a very > long time and against very strong probing. The fact that it exists is not a secret; this is saying that the very existence of the software is the secret! > > My Dad was part of the WWII operation "Central Bureau" - doing what's > now called "SigInt" (DSD is the descendant agency). I don't know how > many thousands of people were involved - Australian, American servicemen > and civies - but they *all* kept the secret for many decades. Mine was in UK Military Intelligence in Cyprus in the 50s. > > It was 1974 (30 yrs before "ULTRA" and the work at Bletchley Park > breaking Enigma codes was published. I'd be very surprised if all > secrets will ever be public. Sadly, I agree. > It wasn't until 1988 and the "Spy Catcher" case in Britian that we found > out what he did. [Around 45 years] > It took until 1995 before Jack Bleakley released a vetted history in > "The Eavesdroppers". > The Military had actively monitored & suppressed unit reunions (and > probably more). > I was told stories of guys cracking up in the field from the pressure > (just doing radio intercepts) and of exceptionally harsh punishment for > very minor 'breaches' (taking a pot-shot at a leaf). > > I'm sure I wasn't told the worst of it. Revealing any information, even > accidentally, of this super-secret operation was met quickly and > harshly. Anything deliberate would've been considered treason with the > usual military consequences. Therin lies the key; you are referring to a military operation, with military people. This guy's 10,000 programmers are civilians, as is he. > > My assessment is that it's plausible but a spoof. Someone like this > just wouldn't make such a post. > > Like Marcus Ranums' observation about visiting the Windows Kernel team: > "there's the Mosad agent, the Chinese, the Russian, MI5, ...". > > Unprovable and unlikely, but entirely plausible. Overall, why risk execution and still not reveal anything useful? Show us the code, man! -- Daniel Rose National Library of Australia From jwhit at janwhitaker.com Thu Jan 3 11:35:32 2008 From: jwhit at janwhitaker.com (Jan Whitaker) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 11:35:32 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Who's Afraid of the Net article Message-ID: <6hhft4$fkcsm@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> Written by Peter John Chen, formerly of Melbourne, currently of Alberta Canada, but soon to be of Sydney again: http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/peter-john-chen/2008/01/02/1198949896978.html Who's afraid of the net? Peter John Chen January 3, 2008 IT'S AN idea that just won't die: if the government makes your internet provider run special software, all the bad things (and people) of cyberspace won't bother you. This is the view being touted by the new Minister for Information Technology, Senator Stephen Conroy, who is proposing that internet service providers should be required to filter Australians' internet connections against a list maintained by the Australian Communications and Media Authority. While users will have the ability to "opt out", it is being promoted because previous attempts to encourage the use of filtering software have been ineffective ? notwithstanding the Howard government's NetAlert advertising campaign last year. [snip] Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From jwhit at janwhitaker.com Thu Jan 3 12:28:00 2008 From: jwhit at janwhitaker.com (Jan Whitaker) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 12:28:00 +1100 Subject: [LINK] porn filter defeated already in Britain Message-ID: <6hhft4$fl3bv@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23000324-5013404,00.html Net filter fails to block porn sites Karen Dearne and Fran Foo | January 03, 2008 THE "clean feed" filtering system Communications Minister Stephen Conroy hopes will halt internet porn has already been defeated by British researchers. Richard Clayton, of the University of Cambridge's Computer Laboratory, said the innovative blocking system CleanFeed, devised by British internet service provider BT, could be circumvented in a number of ways. "At first sight, it's an effective and precise method of blocking unacceptable content," Mr Clayton said. "But there are a number of issues to address as soon as one assumes that content providers or consumers might make serious attempts to get around it." The report is more bad news for those hoping to block violence and pornography from their internet. Although filter salesmen talk up their wares, the reality has never quite matched the industry hype. Same article, different sub head: Rudd porn filter fails: experts http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23001130-15306,00.html Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From arsptr at internode.on.net Thu Jan 3 22:08:57 2008 From: arsptr at internode.on.net (Alastair Rankine) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 22:08:57 +1100 Subject: [LINK] As Go Document Formats, So Goes Video In-Reply-To: <476F4D65.8000900@canb.auug.org.au> References: <476EF3D0.8070206@iimetro.com.au> <476F4D65.8000900@canb.auug.org.au> Message-ID: <477CC249.4090004@internode.on.net> steve jenkin wrote: > > I've never understood why archival documents aren't stored in "Lowest > Common Denominator" form. > I.e. ASCII lines until XML+Dublin Core (or whatever equiv) is generally > [snip] > Presentation/layout would almost always be purely ornamental. > > This whole area is obviously driven by Bureaucratic Politics and agendas > than technical or professional issues. > I quite agree, if they can't use our character set in all its 7-bit glory, all those foreigners can just bloody well learn English anyway. And yes, there is absolutely nothing of value in typography, graphic design, or the visual arts in general. It is all ornamental and can be easily discarded with no loss. Your proposal quite nicely solves the problem raised in the linked article. Instead of archiving all that video footage, just save the screenplays as ASCII and throw the footage away. I don't know why bureaucratic politics and agendas keep getting in the way of such simple solutions, either. From rick at praxis.com.au Fri Jan 4 00:52:29 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 00:52:29 +1100 Subject: [LINK] As Go Document Formats, So Goes Video In-Reply-To: <477CC249.4090004@internode.on.net> References: <476EF3D0.8070206@iimetro.com.au> <476F4D65.8000900@canb.auug.org.au> <477CC249.4090004@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <477CE89D.8000302@praxis.com.au> Alastair Rankine wrote: > steve jenkin wrote: >> >> I've never understood why archival documents aren't stored in "Lowest >> Common Denominator" form. >> I.e. ASCII lines until XML+Dublin Core (or whatever equiv) is generally [SCHNIPPE] > > I quite agree, if they can't use our character set in all its 7-bit > glory, all those foreigners can just bloody well learn English anyway. [SCHNIPPE] > Sarcasm accepted. Good points raised. What comes to mind is the Voyager Golden Record. It was sent out into deep space on the Voyager 1 and 2 probes. The record is encoded in a format that should be decodable by any intelligent species. A feature of the Golden Record is that is starts from the simple and proceeds to the complex. (*) understand binary as found on the craft's plaque (*) Read some analogue raster lines from the disk. (*) Get a round circle to display from the data on the disk. (*) etc. etc. We are facing a similar but easier problem for digital archiving. All approaches to digital archiving that I have seen assume that a particular encoding is used in a specific language with a known format to archive content. Using the Voyager technique, with much credit to Carl Sagan, start from as basic a definition as possible, and develop the complexity as required. Such a technique allows the archiver to specify as comprehensive an encoding format (physical media) and as many and varied content types (logical data) as occur in the archive. The archiver can commit a proprietary RealMedia/12.5 format audio stream to the archive, provided that the encoding format and content type are defined in the DEFINITIONS for the archive for RealMedia/12.5. If the definition of the proprietary format cannot be obtained, convert it to a format that can be defined. The principle is simple. Use the DEFINITIONS section of the archive to define how the archive is specified, encoded, stored and formatted. The archive itself then becomes instances of content as simple or as complex as required. DEFINITIONS (*) Bootstrap the definitions with hard copy in English ... or French ... or in whatever language(s) you decide. (*) Define the binary encoding, i.e. 8-bit octets. (*) Define Unicode and its 7-bit ASCII subset. (*) List the languages represented in the texts. (*) Define the media formats: magnetic disc, optical ... (*) Define the content formats: plain text, markup, audio, video ... (*) Provide the definitions using Unicode in as many languages as required, the more the better. ARCHIVE (*) Archive the content per the DEFINITIONS If you are archiving a pile of ASCII RFC's written in English to a CD, the DEFINITIONS task is relatively simple. OTOH, archiving all of the ABC's text, audio and video requires meticulous care in the DEFINITIONS phase so that the archive itself is straighforward and comprehensible. Nothing precludes the archiving of any format or any presentation layer, provided that it is DEFINED. You have an encyclopedia written in XHTML + CSS? Fine. Archive it but first DEFINE HTML + CSS. May I be so bold as to say that one can also DEFINE an XHTML + CSS + Javascript document? THE CATCH Yes, there is always a catch. The one that comes to mind is archiving executable content. This has already been discussed on LINK and gives me a headache every time I think about it. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Say what you will about the miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile. -- Howard W Campbell in Kurt Vonnegut Jr's "Mother Night" From dassa at dhs.org Fri Jan 4 07:54:20 2008 From: dassa at dhs.org (Darryl (Dassa) Lynch) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 07:54:20 +1100 Subject: [LINK] As Go Document Formats, So Goes Video In-Reply-To: <477CE89D.8000302@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <200801032054.m03KsKvx032263@relay01.ispone.net.au> || THE CATCH || || Yes, there is always a catch. The one that comes to mind is || archiving executable content. This has already been || discussed on LINK and gives me a headache every time I think || about it. || || || cheers || rickw Executable content need not be that different. The definition would need to include a description of the hardware required for the executable to run on and any other dependencies. The key word being dependencies. Darryl (Dassa) Lynch From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Fri Jan 4 08:38:40 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 08:38:40 +1100 Subject: [LINK] As Go Document Formats, So Goes Video In-Reply-To: <200801032054.m03KsKvx032263@relay01.ispone.net.au> References: <200801032054.m03KsKvx032263@relay01.ispone.net.au> Message-ID: At 0:52 +1100 4/1/08, Rick Welykochy wrote: >|| THE CATCH >|| Yes, there is always a catch. The one that comes to mind is >|| archiving executable content. This has already been >|| discussed on LINK and gives me a headache every time I think >|| about it. At 7:54 +1100 4/1/08, Darryl \(Dassa\) Lynch wrote: >Executable content need not be that different. The definition would need to >include a description of the hardware required for the executable to run on >and any other dependencies. > >The key word being dependencies. A related problem I tackled a few years back was the inspection of software escrow deposits. Basically, pretty much all desposits failed to fulfil their function, in that they did not ensure that management of the application could be performed by the user organisation following the demise or withdrawal from market of the supplier organisation. Somewhere in my consultancy archives I've got a nicely structured version of the lists of things that may be required. It was used on several occasions to chastise suppliers who couldn't understand why putting 'the source code' onto 'a disk' and sending it to an air-conditioned bunker didn't satisfy the contract terms. (Separately, I was astonished what a surprise it was to some people that escrow deposit isn't a once-off action but a cyclical or even a compounding activity, and that media-renewal mattered). This is a text version, which is less useful, but a bit more readable: http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/SOS/PaperEscrow.html Skimming it again for the first time in many years, I'm struck by the fact that I didn't address the issue of copyright licences for the operating system version, compiler, system libraries, application libraries, etc. I guess we were all more relaxed back then, and assumed that we had the right to take back-up copies. I can just imagine what Microsoft's licences say about such things these days ... -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Fri Jan 4 09:37:06 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 09:37:06 +1100 Subject: [LINK] As Go Document Formats, So Goes Video In-Reply-To: <200801032054.m03KsKvx032263@relay01.ispone.net.au> References: <477CE89D.8000302@praxis.com.au> <200801032054.m03KsKvx032263@relay01.ispone.net.au> Message-ID: <6hhft4$g1vt6@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> At 07:54 AM 4/01/2008, Darryl (Dassa) Lynch wrote: >Executable content need not be that different. The definition would need to >include a description of the hardware required for the executable to run on >and any other dependencies. how do you present the definitions? indelible ink on some indestructable physical medium like stone or what? Otherwise you run into the problem of instructions to read the manual on the CD to figure out how to use the CD. :-) Jan Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au Fri Jan 4 11:38:28 2008 From: sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au (steve jenkin) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 11:38:28 +1100 Subject: [LINK] As Go Document Formats, So Goes Video In-Reply-To: <477CC249.4090004@internode.on.net> References: <476EF3D0.8070206@iimetro.com.au> <476F4D65.8000900@canb.auug.org.au> <477CC249.4090004@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <477D8004.30401@canb.auug.org.au> Alastair Rankine wrote on 3/1/08 10:08 PM: Alistair, You sir, are a Fool or a Knave, possibly both. I don't know you or your work and have never met you. You have added nothing positive to the discussion, so why be sarcastic? You launched a twisted, personal attack without provocation against someone you don't know. That doesn't seem either rational or productive to me. The thread is dead and cold - around 2 weeks ago. Starting your own new thread would've been a reasonable reaction to my post, at this point in time. The last election shows definitively that the "play the man not the ball" approach *fails*. Your decision to adopt this style leaves me baffled. The quote you've taken out of context was about archiving Government *files*. I was specifically addressing normal text documents as used in those files. >From at least the mid-80's, there have been many standards efforts to separate *content* from *representation* or layout. XML and related standards are the current incarnation in this area. I've never seen video or graphic/visual arts in the permanent files of the departments I've worked for. I'm not sure why you would make such a big play for this. As for ASCII and international character sets - there is UTF-8. It's a standard, it's widely used and satisfies my criteria for 'simple and effective'. It represents ASCII unchanged - so no format change for the bulk of our English language Government files. For those very special cases where the Content is also the Representation, care and thought needs to be exercised in selecting the format and medium for archive, as well as what is taken to archive. Beta won over VHS around 20 years ago, but as the best technical format of the time was often used when quality was important. It now proves to be a very poor archival format choice. If the magnetic media has survived (mag media of the 80's had a major binder fault) can the format still be read? See: Magnetic Tape Storage and Handling - guidelines for Libraries and Archives I was making a case laying down archival material, of whatever content-type, in a *future-proof* way. Large chunks of my working life have been dedicated to recovering important information from deceased formats. It's not pretty and sometimes impossible. Rekeying printed copies is often the only alternative. You could contribute to the discussion by enumerating the classes of non-text documents that might be archived and pointing the list to resources and standards for them. As for not understanding the problem, I worked in IP Australia for a time. I stumbled over a weakness in their archival storage system and researched options for them. My best advice was to make copies of all formal documents on archival-quality micro-fiche (250 year life expectancy). Hold at least two copies at each office, one in a sealed controlled atmosphere. It is future-proof exactly because it is Lowest Common Denominator. Both images and text can be stored, and text can be recovered automatically by scanning/OCR. BTW: Your post, minus sarcasm could've been: > You've neglected important classes of documents: video, visual & audio arts and graphic design. > Nor has handling international character sets been mentioned. > > How do you propose to handle these and those images & documents where the appearance & typography > are as important as the Content, such as ??????? [some really convincing example] > steve jenkin wrote: >> >> I've never understood why archival documents aren't stored in "Lowest >> Common Denominator" form. >> I.e. ASCII lines until XML+Dublin Core (or whatever equiv) is generally >> > [snip] >> Presentation/layout would almost always be purely ornamental. >> >> This whole area is obviously driven by Bureaucratic Politics and agendas >> than technical or professional issues. >> > > I quite agree, if they can't use our character set in all its 7-bit > glory, all those foreigners can just bloody well learn English anyway. > > And yes, there is absolutely nothing of value in typography, graphic > design, or the visual arts in general. It is all ornamental and can be > easily discarded with no loss. > > Your proposal quite nicely solves the problem raised in the linked > article. Instead of archiving all that video footage, just save the > screenplays as ASCII and throw the footage away. > > I don't know why bureaucratic politics and agendas keep getting in the > way of such simple solutions, either. > > > > -- Steve Jenkin, Info Tech, Systems and Design Specialist. 0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915) PO Box 48, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au http://members.tip.net.au/~sjenkin From stil at stilgherrian.com Fri Jan 4 12:01:09 2008 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 12:01:09 +1100 Subject: [LINK] As Go Document Formats, So Goes Video In-Reply-To: <477D8004.30401@canb.auug.org.au> Message-ID: On 4/1/08 11:38 AM, "steve jenkin" wrote: > [an enormous rant about Alastair Rankine's post that entirely missed > the point and took it all as a personal attack] Actually, Steve, I think you're completely wrong. "Government files" have been a lot more than just typed words for a very, very long time. There are maps, photographs, film footage, audio recordings -- all of the many and varied things which might have been used as documents or plans or "evidence" in the many governmental and judicial processes over the years. There's "government research", too, everything from film of rockets taking off from Woomera to the map showing exactly which land was bought from whom by the health department when the built a hospital. Or a photograph of the injuries sustained by a worker when a claim was made for compensation. As I re-read Alastair's post, I see no personal attack on *you*, Steve, only upon the idea that "government files" are nothing more than plain text. Yes, he used a little sarcasm. But nothing particularly nasty. Your response is, I believe, completely over the top. Stilgherrian -- Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/ Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia mobile +61 407 623 600 fax +61 2 9516 5630 ABN 25 231 641 421 From arsptr at internode.on.net Fri Jan 4 15:46:10 2008 From: arsptr at internode.on.net (Alastair Rankine) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 15:46:10 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Software Escrow Deposits In-Reply-To: References: <200801032054.m03KsKvx032263@relay01.ispone.net.au> Message-ID: <477DBA12.3070808@internode.on.net> Roger Clarke wrote: > This is a text version, which is less useful, but a bit more readable: > http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/SOS/PaperEscrow.html > > Skimming it again for the first time in many years, I'm struck by the > fact that I didn't address the issue of copyright licences for the > operating system version, compiler, system libraries, application > libraries, etc. I guess we were all more relaxed back then, and > assumed that we had the right to take back-up copies. I can just > imagine what Microsoft's licences say about such things these days ... Quite right Roger. In my experience it is all to easy to introduce environmental dependencies into the software build process which must be either kept under change control with the source code, or must be manually maintained. For example I've worked on a project where a specific version, NOT the current version, of the compiler was required to build the source code. Similar for the build system, the source control system, third-party libraries, etc etc. Sometimes these components are supplied by the operating system itself (eg most Linux distros) and so there is often a dependency here as well. Over the years I've come to see the value in creating a project-specific canonical build machine on which the release builds of the software are to be made. This is left untouched during day-to-day development and access to it is controlled closely. In more recent years I've experimented with making this a virtual machine, to reduce the dependence on physical hardware such that it can be backed up or archived off. I think this is pretty future-proof; in 20 years time you just have to boot the VM image and you get everything needed to build the software, which also makes it a good deliverable for software escrow deposits. But let's not forget the documentation either, this story should sound suspiciously familiar to anyone who has worked in the software business at one time or another: http://www.hacknot.info/hacknot/action/showEntry?eid=97 From jwhit at janwhitaker.com Fri Jan 4 16:54:31 2008 From: jwhit at janwhitaker.com (Jan Whitaker) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 16:54:31 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Spam's poster boy indicted Message-ID: <6hhft4$g7bjd@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> http://edition.cnn.com/2008/BUSINESS/01/03/us.spam/index.html?iref=mpstoryview Spam's 'poster boy' indicted WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A man described as one of U.S.'s most prolific senders of spam e-mail was indicted by a federal grand jury over a fraud scheme that manipulated Chinese stock prices, the Justice Department said Thursday. Alan Ralsky, 52, has been indicted in a spam scheme that netted $3 million in 2005. Alan Ralsky, 52, was among 11 defendants named in the 41-count indictment, returned by a grand jury in Detroit. Authorities said he made millions of dollars by manipulating the stock prices through a massive global spamming operation. Dubbed the "the poster boy for spam," Ralsky, of West Bloomfield, Michigan, is widely known for high-profile legal battles involving spamming operations that tout everything from mortgages to stocks to diet pills, . Ralsky remained at large Thursday evening, but his son-in-law Scott Bradley was arrested Thursday along with another defendant, Judy Devenow, and both appeared in federal court for arraignment, the Justice Department said in a statement. A third defendant, How Wai John Hui of Vancouver, Canada, and Hong Kong, was arrested in New York on Wednesday. The remaining defendants, from Arizona, California and Russia, were being sought, authorities said. The defendants are accused of making $3 million during the summer of 2005 alone as a result of illegal spamming activities, authorities said. [snip] Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From rick at praxis.com.au Fri Jan 4 17:00:07 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 17:00:07 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Software Escrow Deposits In-Reply-To: <477DBA12.3070808@internode.on.net> References: <200801032054.m03KsKvx032263@relay01.ispone.net.au> <477DBA12.3070808@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <477DCB67.7020405@praxis.com.au> Alastair Rankine wrote: > But let's not forget the documentation either, this story should sound > suspiciously familiar to anyone who has worked in the software business > at one time or another: > > http://www.hacknot.info/hacknot/action/showEntry?eid=97 Ahem. Yes, very entertaining. The people running that particular project obviously have not learnt the lessons you and I have. Part of testing is: recreate the build environment on a virgin machine. Ensure the entire project can be built from scratch, pass muster and be deployed. I keep telling people I work with: coding is only 10% of the project. The rest is the boring stuff: analyse, design, config, testing, deployment, testing, bug fixes, testing hot fixes, testing, etc.etc.etc. This might give the non techies on the list some insight into why there are so many failed and crap software projects coming in and out of existence all the time. To sit down and codeup some quick "solution" and then release is just plain wrong. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Say what you will about the miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile. -- Howard W Campbell in Kurt Vonnegut Jr's "Mother Night" From sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au Fri Jan 4 17:42:53 2008 From: sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au (steve jenkin) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 17:42:53 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Software Escrow Deposits In-Reply-To: <477DBA12.3070808@internode.on.net> References: <200801032054.m03KsKvx032263@relay01.ispone.net.au> <477DBA12.3070808@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <477DD56D.4020501@canb.auug.org.au> Alastair Rankine wrote on 4/1/08 3:46 PM: > > Over the years I've come to see the value in creating a > project-specific canonical build machine on which the release builds > of the software are to be made. This is left untouched during > day-to-day development and access to it is controlled closely. In more > recent years I've experimented with making this a virtual machine, to > reduce the dependence on physical hardware such that it can be backed > up or archived off. I think this is pretty future-proof; in 20 years > time you just have to boot the VM image and you get everything needed > to build the software, which also makes it a good deliverable for > software escrow deposits. > > But let's not forget the documentation either, this story should sound > suspiciously familiar to anyone who has worked in the software > business at one time or another: You talk as if you know what you're saying, but you have your head up your arse. Your VM's aren't going to run in 5 years, let alone 20. Got Vista? bang, bang you're dead with licensing. Worse to come when TPM is enforced - can't fake it with your VM. That's not going to be the just the O/S either. For all licensed Apps - TPM gives real bite to DRM. DRM + TPM means enforced limited number of platform installs/moves for licensed software. bang, bang, game over. One of the known O/S & vendor responses to their detection of DRM 'violations' is deleting files they deem to be violations. With encrypted filesystems using hardware features becoming more popular in MS-land, the special backups needed probably won't let you get your data back either. Y2K proved that all production software, not just 'mission critical', has a very long life. 20 years is a minimum. Perhaps you are the person who some years back smugly publicly berated me as a fool for using a command-line email program to vet everything before it hit my home system. I was advised that all I needed was a virus scanner and personal firewall and I would be *perfectly* safe. Ha Ha Ha Ha. My systems are all still safe. Your current suggestion is just as plausible and just as wrong headed. Those who believe this inane proposal are living in a fools' paradise. Is IA32 the definitive instruction set? Not for all time, not for all purposes. Currently, it loses for low-power and highly portable devices. ARM and variants are king of that market segment. As the speed/capability of those processors improves, there will be pressure on low-end desktops, especially single-unit devices (iMac, Dell XPS One), to adopt the chip. The Everex gPC at US$200 set a new benchmark in *cheap*. Things like the ASUS Eee are taking the industry into new pricepoint territory. The only way to hit these new prices is to pick up existing cheap chipsets. Good O/S's are born portable: viz. Max OS/X, Solaris, Linux, *BSD, ... Mobile phones outsell PC's and laptops by 5-10:1. Their technologies are the ones to watch out for. Intel chips are just too expensive and power-hungry in that world. If MSFT doesn't adapt, it pretty much loses the whole game as Moores' Law relentlessly pushes these 'cheap and cheerful' CPU's further up the food-chain. So what happens when the CPU architecture of the desktop, server and build system changes - either in a single step or by a steady stream of small and subtle changes? Oops, you're lovely strategy turns to mush. You are back to needing a hopelessly old, unsupported pile of crap. "Chuck it all into a VM and you'll be fine" is B/S. None of these risks are fanciful nor already occurred multiple times. But none of this will matter to you - it'll be SEP with you long gone. It's not what you know that's true that's gonna get you, it's what you know is so, but ain't. Which for you would seem to be a particular problem. Right back at you :-) -- Steve Jenkin, Info Tech, Systems and Design Specialist. 0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915) PO Box 48, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au http://members.tip.net.au/~sjenkin From stil at stilgherrian.com Fri Jan 4 18:44:37 2008 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 18:44:37 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Software Escrow Deposits In-Reply-To: <477DD56D.4020501@canb.auug.org.au> Message-ID: On 4/1/08 5:42 PM, "steve jenkin" wrote: > You talk as if you know what you're saying, but you have your head up > your arse. I really think this sort of comment us unhelpful, to say the least. You need to know that you're starting to look like an arsehole in this discussion. Once that happens, no-one will be paying any attention to the substance of your comments. That's just how human nature works. I'd recommend reconsidering your strategy. Stilgherrian -- Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/ Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia mobile +61 407 623 600 fax +61 2 9516 5630 ABN 25 231 641 421 From sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au Fri Jan 4 19:47:07 2008 From: sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au (steve jenkin) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 19:47:07 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Software Escrow Deposits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <477DF28B.80400@canb.auug.org.au> Stilgherrian wrote on 4/1/08 6:44 PM: Stil, Pull your head in. By your actions you've made a *very* strong statement that in this forum that personal abuse is not only tolerated, it is preferred. You had the opportunity to say something about an uncalled for personal attack and you not only let it go, when I responded (yes it was long])you then described what I wrote as 'a rant'. Which again is demeaning and unnecessary. None too subtle personal attack. As is 'this advice' - you are calling me an arsehole and uttering threats. That's not subtle or 'helpful'. Get over yourself. Link is as Link does. Don't write B/S like this. You're a fool, you don't need to compound that into looking like hypocrite as well. Oh, sarcasm isn't an attack? Gee Golly I guess the dictionary is wrong: "A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound." But what would I know, I only rave and rant. Which apparently is the preferred LINK conversation style. > On 4/1/08 5:42 PM, "steve jenkin" wrote: > >> You talk as if you know what you're saying, but you have your head up >> your arse. >> > > I really think this sort of comment us unhelpful, to say the least. You need > to know that you're starting to look like an arsehole in this discussion. > Once that happens, no-one will be paying any attention to the substance of > your comments. That's just how human nature works. I'd recommend > reconsidering your strategy. > > Stilgherrian > > > -- Steve Jenkin, Info Tech, Systems and Design Specialist. 0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915) PO Box 48, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au http://members.tip.net.au/~sjenkin From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Fri Jan 4 19:54:36 2008 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 19:54:36 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Software Escrow Deposits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9B05EA9A-B7FE-40BE-887B-7B6F8A091E9D@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Linkers Can we keep our cool on this one please. Tony phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me at Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry at alianet.alia.org.au http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From jwhit at janwhitaker.com Sat Jan 5 09:13:57 2008 From: jwhit at janwhitaker.com (Jan Whitaker) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 09:13:57 +1100 Subject: [LINK] ATM skimmers go wifi Message-ID: <6hhft4$ggpvr@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,22989888-5006364,00.html ATM scams get hi-tech Article from: AAP December 31, 2007 09:30am CRIMINALS are using wireless technology to skim personal identification numbers from bank cards at ATMs while sitting up to 100m away. Police say wireless keypad overlays are being used on ATMs in the latest international scam expected to hit Australian shores soon. The keypads instantly transmit a person's secret PIN to a nearby laptop, replacing traditional skimming devices which were attached to ATMs. "Under the old technology if they lost the skimming machine because it was detected or they could not retrieve it, they lost all the data,'' Detective Superintendent Brian Hay of Queensland police said. "Now, they can retain the information collected between the time the device is put on the ATM and when it is collected or compromised.'' Supt Hay said the new technology also meant skimmers no longer needed to install spy cameras on ATMs to record PINs. "All the card data is transmitted to their laptops while they're having a cup of coffee up to 100m away,'' he said. "They design the keypad overlays for specific types of ATMs so it makes them very difficult to detect.'' Police found the technology could be bought on the internet from black market websites. "There is no evidence yet of the wireless technology being used in Australia but we know they are trading on the Internet,'' he said. "We know the technology is out there and crooks can buy it so it will be inevitable it will happen here.'' Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From jwhit at janwhitaker.com Sat Jan 5 13:17:06 2008 From: jwhit at janwhitaker.com (Jan Whitaker) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 13:17:06 +1100 Subject: [LINK] weird referral page Message-ID: <6hhft4$giu65@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> Linkers, I have just looked at my webstats and found a very weird referring URL: -- freeliveporno.org Not only that, there were FOUR hits from it! Anyone else find that in their Links from an external page list? Believe me, I didn't put my link there and have nothing on my site that could qualify whatsoever! I'm not moonlighting.....in *any* definition of the term! Jan Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au Sat Jan 5 13:32:04 2008 From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 13:32:04 +1100 Subject: [LINK] weird referral page In-Reply-To: <6hhft4$giu65@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> References: <6hhft4$giu65@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <20080105023204.GA21248@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> Jan Whitaker wrote: > I have just looked at my webstats and found a very weird referring URL: > -- freeliveporno.org > Not only that, there were FOUR hits from it! This is referer spam. Connecting clients can pass anything they like in the referer field, and spammers know that people log referers -- and in some case put the logs online, complete with links back to the top referring pages. So spammers fake a whole pile of http requests with the domains they are trying to promote as referers, hoping to get either automated links or traffic from webmasters looking at their logs. These are not real requests, just automated spambots. Danny. --------------------------------------------------------- http://dannyreviews.com/ - over nine hundred book reviews http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog --------------------------------------------------------- From jwhit at janwhitaker.com Sat Jan 5 13:39:26 2008 From: jwhit at janwhitaker.com (Jan Whitaker) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 13:39:26 +1100 Subject: [LINK] weird referral page In-Reply-To: <20080105023204.GA21248@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> References: <6hhft4$giu65@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> <20080105023204.GA21248@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <6hhft4$gj34j@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> At 01:32 PM 5/01/2008, Danny Yee wrote: >These are not real requests, just automated spambots. Thanks, Danny [and Kim]. Now do you have any way to stop spoofers from using my domain name? :-) jan Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From peter at ratbags.com Sat Jan 5 16:38:07 2008 From: peter at ratbags.com (Peter Bowditch) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 16:38:07 +1100 Subject: [LINK] weird referral page In-Reply-To: <20080105023204.GA21248@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> References: <6hhft4$giu65@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net>, <20080105023204.GA21248@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <477FB26F.29292.690E795@peter.ratbags.com> I haven't seen anything suspicious for a while, but for some time I used to get a lot of referrals each month from Texas holdem poker sites. Not as glamorous as porn sites, but just as annoying. > Jan Whitaker wrote: > > I have just looked at my webstats and found a very weird referring > URL: > > -- freeliveporno.org > > Not only that, there were FOUR hits from it! > > This is referer spam. Connecting clients can pass anything they like > in the referer field, and spammers know that people log referers -- > and in some case put the logs online, complete with links back to > the top referring pages. > > So spammers fake a whole pile of http requests with the domains they > are trying to promote as referers, hoping to get either automated > links or traffic from webmasters looking at their logs. > > These are not real requests, just automated spambots. > > Danny. > --------------------------------------------------------- > http://dannyreviews.com/ - over nine hundred book reviews > http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog > --------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link at mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > > -- Peter Bowditch The Millenium Project - http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud - http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics - http://www.skeptics.com.au From gramadan at umd.com.au Sat Jan 5 22:44:58 2008 From: gramadan at umd.com.au (Geoffrey Ramadan) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 22:44:58 +1100 Subject: [LINK] ATM skimmers go wifi In-Reply-To: <6hhft4$ggpvr@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> References: <6hhft4$ggpvr@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <477F6DBA.8060003@umd.com.au> We were actually contacted by a local "crook" about mid last year, who wanted us to design what was in effect a keyboard and magnetic card reader skimmer. The captured data was to be sent via SMS. Though he tried to hide its purpose, it was not too hard to figure out what it was doing (i.e. skimming PIN and MCR data from ATMs) Between the Police and us, we were unable to "locate" this person. However, I was told not so long ago by the Police that they had caught him. He was a ATM technician! Reg Geoffrey Ramadan B.E.(Elec) Chairman, Automatic Data Capture Association (www.adca.com.au) and Managing Director, Unique Micro Design (www.umd.com.au) Jan Whitaker wrote: > > http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,22989888-5006364,00.html > ATM scams get hi-tech > Article from: AAP > December 31, 2007 09:30am > > CRIMINALS are using wireless technology to skim personal > identification numbers from bank cards at ATMs while sitting up to > 100m away. > > Police say wireless keypad overlays are being used on ATMs in the > latest international scam expected to hit Australian shores soon. > > The keypads instantly transmit a person's secret PIN to a nearby > laptop, replacing traditional skimming devices which were attached to > ATMs. > > "Under the old technology if they lost the skimming machine because it > was detected or they could not retrieve it, they lost all the data,'' > Detective Superintendent Brian Hay of Queensland police said. > > "Now, they can retain the information collected between the time the > device is put on the ATM and when it is collected or compromised.'' > > Supt Hay said the new technology also meant skimmers no longer needed > to install spy cameras on ATMs to record PINs. > > "All the card data is transmitted to their laptops while they're > having a cup of coffee up to 100m away,'' he said. > > "They design the keypad overlays for specific types of ATMs so it > makes them very difficult to detect.'' > > Police found the technology could be bought on the internet from black > market websites. > > "There is no evidence yet of the wireless technology being used in > Australia but we know they are trading on the Internet,'' he said. > > "We know the technology is out there and crooks can buy it so it will > be inevitable it will happen here.'' > > > > Jan Whitaker > JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria > jwhit at janwhitaker.com > business: http://www.janwhitaker.com > personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ > commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ > > Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim > Sollisch, Sept, 2007 > 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, > there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 > _ __________________ _ > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link at mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link From stephen at melbpc.org.au Sat Jan 5 23:35:59 2008 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen at melbpc.org.au) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 12:35:59 GMT Subject: [LINK] searchable video Message-ID: <20080105123559.13E1415A0C@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> > From: Carolyn Kotlas > Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 10:44:32 -0500 > Subject: TL Infobits -- December 2007 SEARCHABLE VIDEO LECTURES This fall researchers at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology released the MIT Lecture Browser, a web interface to video recordings of lectures and seminars that have been indexed using automatic speech recognition technology. Users can search on terms or phrases and then play the video at the point(s) in the recording where their search terms appear. While the transcript's accuracy can be affected by speakers' verbal pauses or by nonnative English speakers' accents, the texts can be very close to the audio originals. The transcripts' accuracy is sufficient for searches .. You can search and try out the Lecture Browser at: See also: "Searching Video Lectures: A Tool from MIT Finds Keywords So That Students Can Efficiently Review Lectures" By Kate Greene TECHNOLOGY REVIEW, Nov 26, 2007 http://www.technologyreview.com/Infotech/19747/page1/ -- Cheers people Stephen Loosley Victoria Australia From stephen at melbpc.org.au Sun Jan 6 02:45:08 2008 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen at melbpc.org.au) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 15:45:08 GMT Subject: [LINK] Re: searchable video Message-ID: <20080105154508.5E3F917360@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> > > SEARCHABLE VIDEO LECTURES .. video indexing > using automatic speech recognition technology. > > Searching videos will be essential in future. MIT's working on speech recognition .. Google's the other way, text recognition. WebProNews. January 5, 2008 Patent For Google. by David A. Utter | Staff Writer "Recognizing Text In Images" served as the main idea for a Google patent filed with the World Intellectual Property Organization. The search engine could have another avenue for gathering information from the world it sees. A pair of Google's engineers have applied for a patent that would enable machines to read text included in pictures. An InformationWeek report said the patent would allow tasks like searching videos by keywords appearing in the content as one example. Pulling off a technology that could do this would be quite a feat. In a real world full of myriad typefaces and languages, it seems Google will have a challenge in implementing the patent, should they have plans to do so." -- Cheers people Stephen Loosley Victoria Australia From liddy at sunriseresearch.org Sun Jan 6 06:56:49 2008 From: liddy at sunriseresearch.org (Liddy Nevile) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 06:56:49 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: searchable video In-Reply-To: <20080105154508.5E3F917360@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> References: <20080105154508.5E3F917360@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: And the Indians I met last year are searching images of archival texts in many languages by matching images of words rather than transcribing everything to do that. Liddy On 05/01/2008, at 3:45 PM, stephen at melbpc.org.au wrote: > >> >> SEARCHABLE VIDEO LECTURES .. video indexing >> using automatic speech recognition technology. >> >> > > > Searching videos will be essential in future. MIT's working on > speech recognition .. Google's the other way, text recognition. > > > WebProNews. January 5, 2008 > > Patent For Google. by David A. Utter | Staff Writer > > "Recognizing Text In Images" served as the main idea for a Google > patent filed with the World Intellectual Property Organization. > > The search engine could have another avenue for gathering > information from the world it sees. A pair of Google's engineers > have applied for a patent that would enable machines to read text > included in pictures. > > An InformationWeek report said the patent would allow tasks like > searching videos by keywords appearing in the content as one example. > > Pulling off a technology that could do this would be quite a feat. > In a real world full of myriad typefaces and languages, it seems > Google will have a challenge in implementing the patent, should > they have plans to do so." > -- > > Cheers people > Stephen Loosley > Victoria Australia > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link at mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link From gramadan at umd.com.au Sun Jan 6 12:03:30 2008 From: gramadan at umd.com.au (Geoffrey Ramadan) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 12:03:30 +1100 Subject: [LINK] external power supplies In-Reply-To: <6ggmgn$7c716@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> References: <6ggmgn$7c716@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <478028E2.5080204@umd.com.au> Jan Whitaker wrote: > Interesting article about the potential worldwide ban of external > power supplies and why that would be a bad idea. Relates to recent > discussion about how efficient they are. The answers may be in here. > I'm not an electrical engineer so it will take more knowledgeable > linkers than me to figure it out. > http://sound.westhost.com/articles/external-psu.htm > Done some research on this (noting that we use a lot of external power supplies in our business). 1) The regulatory aspect of this can be found at: http://www.energyrating.gov.au/library/details200702-ris-eps.html "This is the regulatory impact statement for the introduction of Minimum Energy Performance Standards (MEPS) for external power supplies (EPS) as typically imported and sold in Australia and New Zealand. This includes importation of external power supplies by themselves and importation as part of a product package. It is important to note that this document applies to external power supplies only, not the myriad of appliances and products with which they are used. In 2004 the Australian Greenhouse Office entered into a Memorandum of Understanding with the US EPA Energy Star Program, California Electricity Commission and China Certification Center for Energy Conservation Products (CECP) to agree upon harmonized test methods and energy performance marking of external power supplies. This document is based upon the agreed harmonized test methods and energy performance marking." 2) The original concern expressed in Jan's email relate to the transformer based power supplies. In particular that they need to meet minimum no-load conditions as well as efficiency MEPS (Minimum Energy Performance Standards). This standard will make it impossible for transformers to be used as External Power Supplies, and hence the need to migrate to Switch Mode Power Supplies. The original article above puts a strong arguments against this. 3) Fortunately, are revised impact statement has been recently released. http://www.energyrating.gov.au/library/details200707-revised-ris-eps.html Where the Regulators have agreed NOT to include this requirement of meeting no-load minimums, thus the issue is diffused. i.e. transformer based External Powers Supplies will be able to meet the standard. 4) The commencement date for this new scheme will be 1st Oct 2008. I don't expect the public will notice anything. The onus is on the manufacturers and importers to ensure compliance. Though I expect the COST of these will go up to cover the cost of compliance and design changes. Given that External Power Suppliers and in particular plug packs are low cost anyway, this should not be significant. Reg Geoffrey Ramadan B.E.(Elec) Chairman, Automatic Data Capture Association (www.adca.com.au) and Managing Director, Unique Micro Design (www.umd.com.au) From gdt at gdt.id.au Sun Jan 6 12:33:08 2008 From: gdt at gdt.id.au (Glen Turner) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 12:03:08 +1030 Subject: [LINK] external power supplies In-Reply-To: <478028E2.5080204@umd.com.au> References: <6ggmgn$7c716@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> <478028E2.5080204@umd.com.au> Message-ID: <1199583188.5858.10.camel@andromache> On Sun, 2008-01-06 at 12:03 +1100, Geoffrey Ramadan wrote: > 4) The commencement date for this new scheme will be 1st Oct 2008. I > don't expect the public will notice anything. The onus is on the > manufacturers and importers to ensure compliance. Though I expect the > COST of these will go up to cover the cost of compliance and design > changes. Given that External Power Suppliers and in particular plug > packs are low cost anyway, this should not be significant. Hi Geoff, I had a quick look and I don't think the cost is an issue, since the documents required by Australia are a subset of those required for the US Energy Star programme. Like a lot of compliance/certification documentation (Electromagnetic Compatibility, Modems, Material Safety Data Sheets) you obtain the documents from the manufacturer rather than pay to have the testing done. As long as the various jurisdictions have similar requirements (and today that's usually the case) then the cost to the manufacturer is low. Best wishes, Glen From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Sun Jan 6 12:39:10 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:39:10 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Clth IPv6 Strategy: Probably, Some Day, Not Soon Message-ID: [A couple of contrasting presentations from the IPv6 'Summit' (conference?) on 19 - 21 November 2007] The Australian Government's IPv6 Transition Strategy http://www.ipv6.org.au/summit/talks/Peter_Dale_IPv6.pdf Preparation stage - January 2008 to around December 2009. Major activities: - Stocktake of current ICT infrastructure - Training Needs Analysis - Threat and Risk Assessment - Procurement Policy review - Building IPv6 awareness - Whole-of-government IPv6 address space discussion. Reporting - Proposed that AGIMO report to CIOC annually, or as required [Am I alone in finding it remarkable that the above involves 24 elapsed months? And that the project reports to its Steering C'tee only twice in that time? There appears to be no intention to provide support to the pioneer agencies. So will the pioneer agencies put much effort into passing on their hard-won expertise? [But who *are* the pioneer agencies? Defence started planning in 2004, had a policy in place 3 years ago, in Feb 2005, and it mandates transition by ... 2013: Status of IPv6 in Department of Defence Planning http://www.ipv6.org.au/summit/talks/Paul_Pappas_IPv6.pdf To be fair, Defence as a whole is monstrous; but is there no pilot planned?? There's a small lab test called TIPSTEEL [Geoff Huston's estimate of IPv4 address pool exhaustion has moved out a few months recently, to May 2011. Maybe the Aust Govt has its own pool? http://www.potaroo.net/tools/ipv4/index.html See also: http://xkcd.com/195/ Paper: AARNet's Experience with IPv6 http://www.ipv6.org.au/summit/talks/Glen_Turner_Handout_IPv6.pdf Slides: AARNet's Experience with IPv6 http://www.ipv6.org.au/summit/talks/Glen_Turner_IPv6.pdf Glen Turner Australia's Academic and Research Network runs a native IPv6 internet service provider network. It offers native IPv6 connections to Australia's universities, research institutions and other organisations. This session examines: motivations for full IPv6 support; evaluating vendor claims of "IPv6 support", "full support" and value-added services; accounting and monitoring; blockers to customer take-up. [Notes: AARNet has had IPv6 fully operational for some time (in limited form, as early as 2002). Traffic is still relatively small compared with IPv4. Few ISPs currently run IPv6. Vendor support is only now beginning to mature, and firewall and VPN support is still poor. ["Time is running out if you wish to use IPv6 as a potential remediation against the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses held by the Internet address registries. "In particular, equipment purchased today will need to run IPv6 within a few years. Add IPv6 support to the mandatory criteria for network equipment purchases. "For some product categories the claims of vendors cannot be relied upon. You will need to validate claims of support by testing of your particular network design. "Decide in advance how to handle non-compliance ... -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Sun Jan 6 15:44:06 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 15:44:06 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Radiohead: Artists often screwed by digital downloads Message-ID: [Comments at end] Radiohead: Artists often screwed by digital downloads By Nate Anderson | Published: January 02, 2008 - 03:35PM CT http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080102-radiohead-artists-often-screwed-by-digital-downloads.html You might think, if you didn't work in the music business, that famous artists stand to make mad cash from popular albums on iTunes and other digital storefronts. Sadly, that's not the case, and Radiohead frontman Thom Yorke has spent the last week calling out the labels for it. He recently told BBC Radio 4 that "the big infrastructure of the music business has not addressed the way artists communicate directly with their fans. In fact, they seem to basically get in the way. Not only do they get in the way, but they take all the cash." Yorke said the same thing in a widely-quoted recent interview with David Byrne. His advice to young artists in that piece was, "Don't sign a huge record contract that strips you of all your digital rights, so that when you do sell something on iTunes you get absolutely zero. That would be the first priority." He went on to say that selling the new album, In Rainbows, directly to fans made the band more money from digital distribution than "all the other Radiohead albums put together, forever." It's a common complaint from artists. "Weird Al" Yankovic noted on his web site last year that "I actually do get significantly more money from CD sales, as opposed to downloads," though he seemed a bit puzzled about why this was the case. "This is the one thing about my renegotiated record contract that never made much sense to me. It costs the label NOTHING for somebody to download an album (no manufacturing costs, shipping, or really any overhead of any kind) and yet the artist (me) winds up making less from it. Go figure." The labels do "go figure," of course, and they've spent decades coming up with figures that lower artists' royalty percentages. (If you want to get a general sense of how this works with physical distribution, the Future of Music Coalition has a nice explanation of many standard contract features and how they affect artists.) Digital downloads should make many of the standard industry deductions irrelevant (such as breakage and production costs), but the whole issue is complicated by the fact that many contracts didn't included any provisions for digital download sales when they were signed. Radiohead's Yorke complained in the Wired article that "EMI wasn't giving us any money for digital sales. All the contracts signed in a certain era have none of that stuff." Artists today are savvier about the need to protect their download royalties, but the rate of return is still quite low. [See WIRED MAGAZINE: 16.01 18 Dec 2007 'David Byrne and Thom Yorke on the Real Value of Music' http://www.wired.com/entertainment/music/magazine/16-01/ff_yorke?currentPage=all ] Such contractual agreements have taken on a special importance this holiday season as major-label CD sales tanked by 20 percent from the same time period in 2006. Such a sudden collapse may be indicative of a real tipping point to digital, and it means that artists who sign with record labels need to pay special attention to their downloadable royalties. Services like TuneCore and CD Baby now make it possible to get music up on iTunes and other services for low fees, and artists can maintain all their rights. The deals don't cover marketing or recording costs, of course, but with computer equipment and home studios driving the cost of recording into the ground, more bands could find that it makes little sense these days to aspire to a major-label contract. Of course, if you're Radiohead, the built-in publicity makes a direct-to-fans model much easier than if you're, say, the "Free As In Beer" out of Dayton, Ohio. So how many copies did Yorke & Co. move with their experiment? Yorke isn't telling, though he does dismiss as absurd the 1.2 million album guesstimate that has been floating around. And the band knows that it can't stay all-digital yet; a CD release of In Rainbows is planned as well. (Update: the disc came out on January 1 in the US.) [Slowly, music artists are noticing that the mega-corps that control the music industry, even though they're extracting revenues from digital distribution way in excess of that needed to cover costs, are not passing on very much of the revenue to the artists. [If even established groups are getting very little, imagine what share of revenues from digital distribution is going to *new* artists. [Lots of us have warned for years that public payment morality was being seriously undermined, and hence that an increasing proportion of consumers would appropriate content. Now the alienation of artists is going to extremes, at the same time as alternative channels to market are maturing. Business historians may come to write case studies of the collapse of a vast industry 1980-2020.] -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Sun Jan 6 16:06:50 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:06:50 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Radiohead: Artists often screwed by digital downloads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6hhft4$gvf2g@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> At 03:44 PM 6/01/2008, Roger Clarke wrote: >[Lots of us have warned for years that public payment morality was >being seriously undermined, and hence that an increasing proportion >of consumers would appropriate content. Now the alienation of >artists is going to extremes, at the same time as alternative >channels to market are maturing. Business historians may come to >write case studies of the collapse of a vast industry 1980-2020.] Keep an eye on publishing, too. It's a mess of uninformed 'middle' 'men' interns screening works or having to go through layer upon layer to get a decision to sign an author/work after the author has found an agent willing to take on the author/work to begin with. Here in Australia, it's pretty bad in that way. There aren't enough agents. There is an emergence of print on demand that comes in a range of flavours, from bring your own cover to editorial services for a fee. As far as I know, there isn't one for direct production in Australia, but there are a few in the US now, such as lulu.com and iuniverse. As they get more use, people are being more adventurous. The downside is that there is no screening, so you pays your money and you takes your chances. The author gets a much higher return, but they have to handle all their own promotion and they are unlikely to get any bookstores to carry. But nowadays, many publishers (most) want their writers to do their own publicity. I've even been told they expect their authors to use their advance for it! It's a strange old world, isn't it? Jan Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From mikal at stillhq.com Sun Jan 6 16:55:00 2008 From: mikal at stillhq.com (Michael Still) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 21:55:00 -0800 Subject: [LINK] Radiohead: Artists often screwed by digital downloads In-Reply-To: <6hhft4$gvf2g@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> References: <6hhft4$gvf2g@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <47806D34.5000205@stillhq.com> Jan Whitaker wrote: > At 03:44 PM 6/01/2008, Roger Clarke wrote: >> [Lots of us have warned for years that public payment morality was >> being seriously undermined, and hence that an increasing proportion of >> consumers would appropriate content. Now the alienation of artists is >> going to extremes, at the same time as alternative channels to market >> are maturing. Business historians may come to write case studies of >> the collapse of a vast industry 1980-2020.] > > Keep an eye on publishing, too. It's a mess of uninformed 'middle' 'men' > interns screening works or having to go through layer upon layer to get > a decision to sign an author/work after the author has found an agent > willing to take on the author/work to begin with. > > Here in Australia, it's pretty bad in that way. There aren't enough agents. That might be true for literature, but for technical publishing its quite common to have a relationship directly with a publisher and not use an agent at all. Then again, its rare for technical books to pay out their (very small) royalty advances. Mikal From link at todd.inoz.com Sun Jan 6 21:28:12 2008 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 21:28:12 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Radiohead: Artists often screwed by digital downloads In-Reply-To: <6hhft4$gvf2g@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> References: <6hhft4$gvf2g@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <200801061030.m06AUQ4m006667@ah.net> At 04:06 PM 6/01/2008, Jan Whitaker wrote: >At 03:44 PM 6/01/2008, Roger Clarke wrote: >>[Lots of us have warned for years that public payment morality was >>being seriously undermined, and hence that an increasing proportion >>of consumers would appropriate content. Now the alienation of >>artists is going to extremes, at the same time as alternative >>channels to market are maturing. Business historians may come to >>write case studies of the collapse of a vast industry 1980-2020.] > >Keep an eye on publishing, too. It's a mess of uninformed 'middle' >'men' interns screening works or having to go through layer upon >layer to get a decision to sign an author/work after the author has >found an agent willing to take on the author/work to begin with. > >Here in Australia, it's pretty bad in that way. There aren't enough agents. Same with films. Unless you are a mate of someone at the FFC and AFC and look like heading for the dole queue, forget any marketing support (not that the industry should need it really, it should stand on it's own, but Australia doesn't have a marketing industry like the USA where $80 million is spend on advertising a film.) There are alot of indies working to make their dreams come true and the big end of town does everything possible to prevent it. You can't get an on indie screen without the indie screen looking that hollywood block buster screening right. Yep, if the indie exhibitor wants to screen Hollywood BlockBuster 345, then they must screen the 2 hour film three times between 10 AM and 6 PM and twice between 6:30 PM and 10:30 PM. You to the sums. >There is an emergence of print on demand that comes in a range of >flavours, from bring your own cover to editorial services for a fee. >As far as I know, there isn't one for direct production in >Australia, but there are a few in the US now, such as lulu.com and >iuniverse. As they get more use, people are being more adventurous. >The downside is that there is no screening, so you pays your money >and you takes your chances. The author gets a much higher return, >but they have to handle all their own promotion and they are >unlikely to get any bookstores to carry. But nowadays, many >publishers (most) want their writers to do their own publicity. I've >even been told they expect their authors to use their advance for it! Nothing different to film in most of the world, unless you are Sony, Paramount, Columbia or Paramount. >It's a strange old world, isn't it? Yep. From jwhit at janwhitaker.com Sun Jan 6 22:21:49 2008 From: jwhit at janwhitaker.com (Jan Whitaker) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:21:49 +1100 Subject: [LINK] ISBN links from wikipedia Message-ID: <6hhft4$h27i9@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> Just discovered a feature in wikipedia that I hadn't noticed before. If you look up an author and there is a listing of his/her works, there may be ISBN links for each that brings up an ISBN search function. A map of the world lets you click on your region and then provides a list of libraries that lets you search their catalogs. Jan Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au Mon Jan 7 20:36:13 2008 From: david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au (David Boxall) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 20:36:13 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Technology that exposes your dirty linen Message-ID: <4781F28D.5080803@hunterlink.net.au> This bears on issues raised on Link in the past. Is it any more accurate than previous efforts? >From . . . The washing machine of the future may not only wash garments according to the instructions on the clothes but secretly collect information for telemarketers, political parties and anybody else with an interest in people's dirty linen. The Australian Law Reform Commission says washing machines could be fitted with radio frequency identification equipment, known as RFID, which stores information and transmits it to a data-processing system. A discussion paper by the commission on a review of Australian privacy law lists the "bugged" washing machine as one of the myriad controversial technologies that are stealthily shaping the way we live. "Some uses of RFID technology raise privacy concerns," the discussion paper says. "In particular, concerns arise about the ability of agencies, organisations or individuals to surreptitiously collect a variety of data related to the same person; track individuals as they walk in public places (airports, train stations, stores); enhance profiles through the monitoring of consumer behaviour in stores; and read the details of clothes and accessories worn and medicines carried by customers. "These concerns are exacerbated by the fact that individuals may not be given notice that the products they purchase or the objects they use contain RFID tags and may not be given the choice to remove or disable RFID tags." This technology is already widely used: examples include keyless car entry; security tags on clothing, CDs and other items in department stores that activate readers at exits; animal tagging; timing marathon runners; and access control for secure premises. Increasingly Australians are being bar-coded and scoped. Their whereabouts are checked, along with the company they keep. How they make money, how they spend it - all is monitored in the name of progress, profit and private and national security. Marcus Einfeld's court case last month provided irrefutable proof that nobody is ever alone in a big city any more. Charged with 13 offences relating to traffic infringements, the former Federal Court judge was committed to trial after leaving a spoor of credit card, mobile phone and bridge toll transactions and closed-circuit television appearances that a bloodhound with a head cold would have had no difficulty following. But the tracking of Einfeld only reveals the tip of the iceberg of security and surveillance technology piggybacking on living in modern society. . . . Data-matching and data-mining allow information generated by people doing ordinary things - such as using automatic teller machines, paying with credit cards, using shopping loyalty cards or smartcards, writing cheques, renting cars or videos, sending or receiving emails or surfing the internet - to be collected and collated, often without the subject's consent or knowledge. . . . For the hundreds of thousands who came to Australia as immigrants, the absence of ID checks symbolised the new freedoms they had embraced. . . . "CCTV has become so commonplace now that people just don't notice them anymore," he said. "When the public becomes aware that a security technology can or is being abused or is ineffective, then that is the strongest safeguard against governments or organisations abusing the technology." . . . From gdt at gdt.id.au Mon Jan 7 20:41:33 2008 From: gdt at gdt.id.au (Glen Turner) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 20:11:33 +1030 Subject: [LINK] Clth IPv6 Strategy: Probably, Some Day, Not Soon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1199698893.6011.13.camel@andromache> Hi Roger, My main point at the IPv6 Forum is that it is the equipment purchased today that is going to be in your network when IPv4 address space is exhausted. This implies that the IPv6 and NAT implementations and road maps for that equipment should be examined. My warning was that my experience has been that vendors in some markets claiming "IPv6 support" are currently more interested in box ticking than in shipping functioning and inter-working components. This unnecessarily complicates the examination of equipment for use in a IPv6 network. Note that AARNet, an early adopter of IPv6, is actually less threatened by IPv4 exhaustion than other ISPs: our customers traditionally have a great deal of address space, whereas most ISPs need to provide their customers with address space. AARNet's main reason for supporting IPv6 is simply that our customers demand it. In the past this demand has mainly come from academics in Computer Science doing reseach in data networks. In the recent few months demand has appeared from the IT areas of universities which realise that support for IPv6 is going to be required and wish to implement that in some planned fashion, well before any panic around IPv4 address space exhaustion. Best wishes, Glen -- Glen Turner Tel: 0416 295 857 or +61 416 295 857 From david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au Mon Jan 7 21:00:20 2008 From: david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au (David Boxall) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 21:00:20 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Bush tests Telstra over Next G Message-ID: <4781F834.4070707@hunterlink.net.au> This strikes close to home: I live in a rural (though not very remote) area and own an LG 550. The 550 was pushed quite heavily in rural areas in the early months of NextG. I've found that, sometimes - in places where CDMA worked fine, voice quality is useless though the display indicates a usable signal. If there's now a phone available that meets Telstra's promise, then anyone who was sold one that doesn't (like the 550) should be offered an exchange. >From . . . ON HIS property near Walgett, Angus Church used to get decent reception from his hand-held CDMA phone. But Telstra is determined to switch off the CDMA network on January 28 and to replace it with Next G. For Mr Church, the transition has not been happy. The LG 550 phone Telstra sold the farmer when he switched to Next G works only when plugged into a cumbersome and expensive car kit with large vehicle-mounted antenna. And as soon as he steps away from his truck, it's useless. "Unless you have got a car kit you don't get anything with Next G," Mr Church said. "They say it's the same, if not better [than CDMA]. That's a complete lie." Telstra advertised that the Next G network was "everywhere you need it", but in the bush - where farmers rely on mobiles for safety and commerce - a host of customers say nothing could be further from the truth. . . . At Peak Hill, the farmer and bushfire brigade group captain Peter Cannon switched to Next G and got an LG 550. He was out in the paddock recently when there was a haystack fire and could not be reached on his mobile, as he previously could with CDMA. "If we can't make phone calls, how is Telstra going to make any money?" Mr Cannon said. "[Next G] is just not equivalent to CDMA." Near Wentworth, Ian Murdoch believes the G in Next G stands for "generally doesn't work". The farmer was also sold an LG 550 because "that was supposedly the best one for here". Despite flat terrain and being close to Mildura and several phone towers, Mr Murdoch said his mobile coverage had fallen from 90 per cent with CDMA to less than 50 per cent with Next G. Telstra says Next G covers 25 per cent more area and boasts 75 per cent more transmission sites. It started Next G in October 2006 and encouraged country people on CDMA to swap. In July it introduced the "blue tick" system that identified phones suitable for marginal reception areas, such as the LG 550. But in August, the farm research body Kondinin Group said its testing showed that it was only with the addition of an external antenna that the Next G handsets then available could match the reception of CDMA handsets. It was only in November that Telstra introduced the top-line Country Phone, the first Next G mobile to boast the same small pull-out antenna some CDMA phones have to greatly improve reception in marginal areas. . . . The National Farmers Federation told Telstra last month the switch-off should be delayed because the equipment needed by farmers to properly use Next G, such as the Country Phone, had only just become available. Jock Laurie, the president of the NSW Farmers Association, has been travelling with a CDMA phone and Next G handsets monitoring service and "it's really a mixed bag" - some areas had better Next G reception, some better CDMA. He stressed Telstra was working hard to get things right and "there's a lot of examples where they have fixed problems". But Alan Brown, the vice-president of the association, wrote in this week's edition of the rural newspaper The Land that "Telstra has lost the confidence of customers who believed the blue tick campaign and have since been greatly disappointed". Tony Windsor, the independent MP for New England, spent time with Telstra testing CDMA and Next G phones. "The signal from the towers was roughly equivalent, but the capacity of the handsets to pick up the signal was far from equivalent," he said. "Telstra has sold equipment that's not fit for purpose." . . . From ivan at itrundle.com Tue Jan 8 08:47:15 2008 From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 08:47:15 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Online data security and bank accounts Message-ID: I've been trying to tell people this for years, but nonetheless, it takes Jeremy Clarkson (of Top Gear fame) to discover that bank account security is not a trivial matter: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7174760.stm ...though ?500 is a trivial amount for Mr Clarkson, I'm sure that Diabetes UK is very happy (for now*), and I gather that forged direct debits can be reversed, though not easily traced in the UK (contrary to the report, it IS possible to obtain evidence, since a crime was committed). The fraudster would have made a bigger point by transferring money into Greenpeace, or Friends of the Earth. However, some believe that it was a Direct Debit form on the Diabetes UK website that was used to make the transaction. If nothing else, this highlights the fact that security of banking details IS important, and that direct debits can be a problem. As for security with signatures needed etc, it only takes a few minutes of Googling to get Clarkson's signature... and if you need his mother's maiden name, it's on Wikipedia... * ...but possibly not when it is discovered that their online forms allow transactions of this nature to take place unauthorised. -- Ivan Trundle http://itrundle.com ivan at itrundle.com ph: +61 (0)418 244 259 fx: +61 (0)2 6286 8742 skype: callto://ivanovitchk From brendansweb at optusnet.com.au Tue Jan 8 08:47:46 2008 From: brendansweb at optusnet.com.au (Brendan Scott) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 08:47:46 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Clarkson stung after bank prank Message-ID: <47829E02.3080706@optusnet.com.au> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7174760.stm The Top Gear host revealed his account numbers after rubbishing the furore over the loss of 25 million people's personal details on two computer discs. He wanted to prove the story was a fuss about nothing. ... Clarkson now says of the case: "Contrary to what I said at the time, we must go after the idiots who lost the discs and stick cocktail sticks in their eyes until they beg for mercy." From dassa at dhs.org Tue Jan 8 09:11:56 2008 From: dassa at dhs.org (Darryl (Dassa) Lynch) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 09:11:56 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Clarkson stung after bank prank In-Reply-To: <47829E02.3080706@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <200801072212.m07MC1ht020015@relay01.ispone.net.au> link-bounces at anumail0.anu.edu.au wrote: || http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7174760.stm || || The Top Gear host revealed his account numbers after || rubbishing the furore over the loss of 25 million people's || personal details on two computer discs. || || He wanted to prove the story was a fuss about nothing. As someone who has had to publish account details so clients could make payments, my take on this is to only put up details of accounts that require additional signitures to withdraw and not to publish the details of those who are associated with the accounts. Darryl (Dassa) Lynch From link at todd.inoz.com Tue Jan 8 08:44:02 2008 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 08:44:02 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Technology that exposes your dirty linen In-Reply-To: <4781F28D.5080803@hunterlink.net.au> References: <4781F28D.5080803@hunterlink.net.au> Message-ID: <200801072212.m07MCom3009909@ah.net> At 08:36 PM 7/01/2008, David Boxall wrote: >The washing machine of the future may not only wash garments >according to the instructions on the clothes but secretly collect >information for telemarketers, political parties and anybody else >with an interest in people's dirty linen. I guess my dirty laundry will confuse them (giggle) We hand down the oldest boys clothes to #2 child (boy) and #3 child (Girl) often wears them too, and so does #4 (girl) Kittenor will have a giggle about the rest of the laundry! (giggle) From link at todd.inoz.com Tue Jan 8 08:56:27 2008 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 08:56:27 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Bush tests Telstra over Next G In-Reply-To: <4781F834.4070707@hunterlink.net.au> References: <4781F834.4070707@hunterlink.net.au> Message-ID: <200801072212.m07MCom5009909@ah.net> At 09:00 PM 7/01/2008, David Boxall wrote: >This strikes close to home: I live in a rural (though not very >remote) area and own an LG 550. The 550 was pushed quite heavily in >rural areas in the early months of NextG. I've found that, >sometimes - in places where CDMA worked fine, voice quality is >useless though the display indicates a usable signal. David, in traveling all over the place the last few months, I've found that NextG has it's moments. Although we can retain a perm online Broadband Internet connection nearly EVERYWHERE we go (a few 45 sec black sports in the Mitchell Highway and a few long ones on the Bruxner) we oten have ZERO voice call capability at all. It's a very weird feeling being trapped at the bottom of a gully with flood waters all around you, being able to broadband you way around the world sitting on the bonnet of a 4WD, but not being able to call anyone cause yuo can't get a voice service. >If there's now a phone available that meets Telstra's promise, then >anyone who was sold one that doesn't (like the 550) should be >offered an exchange. > > From >. . . >ON HIS property near Walgett, Angus Church used to get decent >reception from his hand-held CDMA phone. > >But Telstra is determined to switch off the CDMA network on January >28 and to replace it with Next G. For Mr Church, the transition has >not been happy. > >The LG 550 phone Telstra sold the farmer when he switched to Next G >works only when plugged into a cumbersome and expensive car kit with >large vehicle-mounted antenna. And as soon as he steps away from his >truck, it's useless. > >"Unless you have got a car kit you don't get anything with Next G," >Mr Church said. "They say it's the same, if not better [than CDMA]. >That's a complete lie." I guess I can't comment on Farmers use on properties. I guess there will be black spots where no one lives and there is no known residential coverage. But one experience on the Bruxner Highway was interesting. We pulled into a tiny town of about 40 people. Asked about mobile coverage - they said there is none unless you have CDMA. SO they are about to really suffer. However, 10 km's up the road, take a left onto a fire trail and drive for 1 km and you have Next G in the middle of nowhere at full strength. Driving around mapping signal strength for a bit of fun (and 4WD time!) was interesting. Google Earth showed me that there was NO ONE residential or business in the area, in fact most of the coverage was pure bushland uninhabited and near impossible to get to even with a 4WD. >Telstra advertised that the Next G network was "everywhere you need >it", but in the bush - where farmers rely on mobiles for safety and >commerce - a host of customers say nothing could be further from the truth. Maybe the Bush needs to go back to FREE communications - UHF and HF 2 way radio. I just fail to see how milliwatt mobiles are useful as a safety tool in places as large as some of these rural properties. They'd need their own CELL tower to even start to provide a cover. >At Peak Hill, the farmer and bushfire brigade group captain Peter >Cannon switched to Next G and got an LG 550. He was out in the >paddock recently when there was a haystack fire and could not be >reached on his mobile, as he previously could with CDMA. > >"If we can't make phone calls, how is Telstra going to make any >money?" Mr Cannon said. "[Next G] is just not equivalent to CDMA." Hehehe, I like that opening line! But Telstra makes it money from handset service packs, the phone calls are just a cash flow. >Near Wentworth, Ian Murdoch believes the G in Next G stands for >"generally doesn't work". The farmer was also sold an LG 550 because >"that was supposedly the best one for here". TO be honest, every mobile phone sellers I've spoken to honestly said avoid the LG mobiles. Telstra shops seem to push them because they have a huge buy/sell margin for the retailer, but any of the independent phone ships seem to really steer you away form the LG phones. Maybe this is a Telstra Quasi-Monopoly deal with LG to push a product in massive volumes of manufacture. Wouldn't surprise me if Telstra did a "LG you make 250,000 of these at a good price cause we've got 250,000 people about to loose their service" kinda deal. >Despite flat terrain and being close to Mildura and several phone >towers, Mr Murdoch said his mobile coverage had fallen from 90 per >cent with CDMA to less than 50 per cent with Next G. Ahhh, the antenna sig strength doesn't define the quality of service with 3G networks. Only "no signal" will define the service. I've had 1Mbps connections to the Intenet on 1 Bar signal, and yet in places where I have full signal only get around 300 kbps. >Telstra says Next G covers 25 per cent more area and boasts 75 per >cent more transmission sites. It started Next G in October 2006 and >encouraged country people on CDMA to swap. In July it introduced the >"blue tick" system that identified phones suitable for marginal >reception areas, such as the LG 550. But in August, the farm >research body Kondinin Group said its testing showed that it was >only with the addition of an external antenna that the Next G >handsets then available could match the reception of CDMA handsets. >It was only in November that Telstra introduced the top-line Country >Phone, the first Next G mobile to boast the same small pull-out >antenna some CDMA phones have to greatly improve reception in marginal areas. I've got these stick on antennas that you stick to the phone. They are passive of course, but they make a dramatic difference to reception. Sometimes. From brd at iimetro.com.au Tue Jan 8 09:25:44 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 09:25:44 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Clarkson stung after bank prank In-Reply-To: <47829E02.3080706@optusnet.com.au> References: <47829E02.3080706@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <4782A6E8.3030004@iimetro.com.au> Two questions: 1. Why is this article entitled a "prank" 2. Why does the BBC URL put it in their entertainment section? The article itself says this is a serious issue. Brendan Scott wrote: > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7174760.stm > > The Top Gear host revealed his account numbers after rubbishing the furore over the loss of 25 million people's personal details on two computer discs. > > He wanted to prove the story was a fuss about nothing. > > ... > > Clarkson now says of the case: "Contrary to what I said at the time, we must go after the idiots who lost the discs and stick cocktail sticks in their eyes until they beg for mercy." > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link at mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Tue Jan 8 09:45:10 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 09:45:10 +1100 Subject: Reverse Gear [Was [LINK] Clarkson stung after bank prank] Message-ID: [This report appeared in the BBC's Entertainment section. It's very much to be hoped that more thoughtful ones will appear under Business and under Technology. Comments at end.] Clarkson stung after bank prank BBC News Monday, 7 January 2008, 11:56 GMT http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7174760.stm TV presenter Jeremy Clarkson has lost money after publishing his bank details in his newspaper column. The Top Gear host revealed his account numbers after rubbishing the furore over the loss of 25 million people's personal details on two computer discs. He wanted to prove the story was a fuss about nothing. But Clarkson admitted he was "wrong" after he discovered a reader had used the details to create a ?500 direct debit to the charity Diabetes UK. Clarkson published details of his Barclays account in the Sun newspaper, including his account number and sort code. He even told people how to find out his address. "All you'll be able to do with them is put money into my account. Not take it out. Honestly, I've never known such a palaver about nothing," he told readers. But he was proved wrong, as the 47-year-old wrote in his Sunday Times column. "I opened my bank statement this morning to find out that someone has set up a direct debit which automatically takes ?500 from my account," he said. "The bank cannot find out who did this because of the Data Protection Act and they cannot stop it from happening again. "I was wrong and I have been punished for my mistake." Police were called in to search for the two discs, which contained the entire database of child benefit claimants and apparently got lost in the post in October 2007. They were posted from HM Revenue and Customs offices in Tyne and Wear, but never turned up at their destination - the National Audit Office. The loss, which led to an apology from Prime Minister Gordon Brown, created fears of identity fraud. Clarkson now says of the case: "Contrary to what I said at the time, we must go after the idiots who lost the discs and stick cocktail sticks in their eyes until they beg for mercy." [COMMENTS: 1. "The bank cannot find out who did this because of the Data Protection Act ..." That's one of the grossest BOTPAs of all time: http://www.privacy.org.au/Resources/BOTPA.html It's entirely false of course. Does a statute have standing to sue for defamation? 2. "The bank ... cannot stop it from happening again" 2A. Implied: "The bank couldn't have stopped it from happening" Unmitigated rubbish. Before exercising a payment instruction that it receives, a bank requires provision of some kind of authenticator. Clarkson should ask his bank on what basis it determined that the direct debit instruction was requested or authorised by the customer (or by an approved agent for the customer). There are then several possibilities, including: - masquerade (e.g. forged signature) - inadequate care by the customer (e.g. allowing capture of a PIN or password to be observed, or writing it down, or giving it to someone else, or giving it to someone else for one transaction and forgetting that it would enable more than one) - error by the bank - inadequate procedures by the bank Clarkson has demonstrated himself many times to be an entertaining idiot, so customer culpability can't be ruled out. But the facts as reported don't support it, because there are many circumstances in which bank account details need to be published (e.g. they're on every invoice my company ever sends out). So publication of them in a column doesn't even come close to being contributory negligence. In short, the bank needs to be named, and pursued with vigour. -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From stil at stilgherrian.com Tue Jan 8 09:47:44 2008 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 09:47:44 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Clarkson stung after bank prank In-Reply-To: <200801072212.m07MC1ht020015@relay01.ispone.net.au> Message-ID: On 8/1/08 9:11 AM, "Darryl (Dassa) Lynch" wrote: > As someone who has had to publish account details so clients could make > payments, my take on this is to only put up details of accounts that require > additional signitures to withdraw and not to publish the details of those > who are associated with the accounts. Mayhaps. But if you have a business bank account and business banking online, you can withdraw money from anyone's account without a signature. You just upload a spreadsheet with account numbers and amounts, and bingo! This is how it works if a business is authorised to make direct debits from your accounts, e.g. your ISP each month, or rent to your landlord. Of course in theory you're meant to have the account-holder's permission and they're meant to have signed something, but we *are* talking about fraudulent usage, are we not? Sure, the trail soon leads back to the culprit, but that's what The Big Bad Guys use gullible cut-outs who've responded to too-good-to-be-true offers in spam. Stil -- Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/ Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia mobile +61 407 623 600 fax +61 2 9516 5630 ABN 25 231 641 421 From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Tue Jan 8 10:07:37 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 10:07:37 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Ars-End Message-ID: [While I'm in grizzle mode, here's one for the other RC's collection] >http://66.225.202.210/news.ars/post/20080106-despite-problems-consumers-choosing-vista-over-xp.html > ... consumers apparently choose Vista over XP by a 7:1 margin. ... That's the kind of reporting that causes me to abandon an information-source. The reporter uses an all-purpose qualifier ("apparently") to qualify a strong verb ("choose"), in order to convey what now seems like information. Rubbish. Few people "choose" an OS. They buy a computer. They put up with whatever OS comes with it. Which OS comes with it is determined by forces that they see as being outside their control. (At the individual level, 'they' are right. If consumers had as much intelligence as a swarm of insects, 'they' would be wrong). The subbie let the article through, including that and other inadequacies. The editor condones a form of reporting that belongs in Murdoch trash. And people like me hereafter treat Ars Technica as a lost cause. Please feel free to re-post. By all means cc. Ars; but wide distribution is what a media organisation listens to, not directly-addressed feedback. Feel free to include my .sig. But make sure that it's clear that I used to regard Ars as a substantial cut above what they've come down to. And that I couldn't actually care all that much what the relative sale-rates of old and new versions of MS OS are; I'm much more concerned about focusing my limited attention span on sources that don't resort to devices like that. -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au Tue Jan 8 12:16:35 2008 From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 12:16:35 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Broadcaster Bailout Boosts Bush Broadband Message-ID: <20080108021637.BC5EDBC6A@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com> Yesterday AUSTAR announced it would sell 2.3GHz and 3.5GHz spectrum to the Optus/ Elders OPEL venture for their WiMAX network in regional Australia . As I mentioned in a series of talks on broadband in regional Australia last September, the lack of dedicated spectrum was a flaw in the original Opel plan, which the Austar deal now largely solves . AUSTAR originally purchased the spectrum for Pay TV. Opel's WiMax network would be technically capable of carrying Pay TV, but there is no mention of it in the announcement and Optus provide a rival Pay TV service. There may be a need for the government to legislate to require open access for Pay TV on the WiMax system. The ALP's broadband policy did not specifically mention WiMax and during the election campaign they criticized its coverage. However, it is likely the new ALP government will include it in the plans and it would provide a lower cost way to provide services outside the range of ADSL. Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington at tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 http://www.tomw.net.au/ Adjunct Senior Lecturer, ANU From matthew at sorbs.net Tue Jan 8 13:36:33 2008 From: matthew at sorbs.net (matthew at sorbs.net) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 13:36:33 +1100 Subject: Reverse Gear [Was [LINK] Clarkson stung after bank prank] Message-ID: <308f496a.496a308f@sorbs.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Clarke Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2008 9:45 am Subject: Reverse Gear [Was [LINK] Clarkson stung after bank prank] > Before exercising a payment instruction that it receives, a bank > requires provision of some kind of authenticator. > > Clarkson should ask his bank on what basis it determined that the > direct debit instruction was requested or authorised by the > customer (or by an approved agent for the customer). I've used my wifes credit card (without her present in the shop) on more than one occasion and signed 'Mick E Mouse' and never been stopped. > There are then several possibilities, including: > - masquerade (e.g. forged signature) > - inadequate care by the customer (e.g. allowing capture of a PIN > or password to be > observed, or writing it down, or giving it to someone else, or > giving it to someone > else for one transaction and forgetting that it would enable > more than one) > - error by the bank > - inadequate procedures by the bank > > Clarkson has demonstrated himself many times to be an entertaining > idiot, so customer culpability can't be ruled out. But the facts > as > reported don't support it, because there are many circumstances in > which bank account details need to be published (e.g. they're on > every invoice my company ever sends out). So publication of them > in > a column doesn't even come close to being contributory negligence. Having grown up in the UK I do know a bit about this. The UK Direct Debit system is very good for paying bills, but does have a number of issues. For example, I had a telephone service, and to get it paid by direct debit all I needed to do was to sign a form with my name and bank details on it and that was all that was needed to 'authorise' the transaction. Theoretically the form should have been forwarded to the bank for signature check, but it's obvious in some cases it isn't. He will have recourse against the bank just by asking for the authorising signature as the bank is supposed to keep the details. Regards, Mat From link at todd.inoz.com Tue Jan 8 13:34:30 2008 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 13:34:30 +1100 Subject: Reverse Gear [Was [LINK] Clarkson stung after bank prank] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200801080238.m082cYlJ016719@ah.net> Roger, the bank is Barclays :) 5th Paragraph :) At 09:45 AM 8/01/2008, Roger Clarke wrote: >[This report appeared in the BBC's Entertainment >section. It's very much to be hoped that more >thoughtful ones will appear under Business and >under Technology. Comments at end.] > >Clarkson stung after bank prank >BBC News >Monday, 7 January 2008, 11:56 GMT >http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7174760.stm > >TV presenter Jeremy Clarkson has lost money >after publishing his bank details in his newspaper column. > >The Top Gear host revealed his account numbers >after rubbishing the furore over the loss of 25 >million people's personal details on two computer discs. > >He wanted to prove the story was a fuss about nothing. > >But Clarkson admitted he was "wrong" after he >discovered a reader had used the details to >create a ?500 direct debit to the charity Diabetes UK. > >Clarkson published details of his Barclays >account in the Sun newspaper, including his >account number and sort code. He even told people how to find out his address. > >"All you'll be able to do with them is put money >into my account. Not take it out. Honestly, I've >never known such a palaver about nothing," he told readers. > >But he was proved wrong, as the 47-year-old wrote in his Sunday Times column. >"I opened my bank statement this morning to find >out that someone has set up a direct debit which >automatically takes ?500 from my account," he said. > >"The bank cannot find out who did this because >of the Data Protection Act and they cannot stop it from happening again. > >"I was wrong and I have been punished for my mistake." > >Police were called in to search for the two >discs, which contained the entire database of >child benefit claimants and apparently got lost in the post in October 2007. > >They were posted from HM Revenue and Customs >offices in Tyne and Wear, but never turned up at >their destination - the National Audit Office. > >The loss, which led to an apology from Prime >Minister Gordon Brown, created fears of identity fraud. > >Clarkson now says of the case: "Contrary to what >I said at the time, we must go after the idiots >who lost the discs and stick cocktail sticks in >their eyes until they beg for mercy." > > >[COMMENTS: > >1. "The bank cannot find out who did this >because of the Data Protection Act ..." > >That's one of the grossest BOTPAs of all time: >http://www.privacy.org.au/Resources/BOTPA.html > >It's entirely false of course. Does a statute >have standing to sue for defamation? > >2. "The bank ... cannot stop it from happening again" > >2A. Implied: "The bank couldn't have stopped it from happening" > >Unmitigated rubbish. > >Before exercising a payment instruction that it >receives, a bank requires provision of some kind of authenticator. > >Clarkson should ask his bank on what basis it >determined that the direct debit instruction was >requested or authorised by the customer (or by >an approved agent for the customer). > >There are then several possibilities, including: >- masquerade (e.g. forged signature) >- inadequate care by the customer (e.g. >allowing capture of a PIN or password to be > observed, or writing it down, or giving it > to someone else, or giving it to someone > else for one transaction and forgetting > that it would enable more than one) >- error by the bank >- inadequate procedures by the bank > >Clarkson has demonstrated himself many times to >be an entertaining idiot, so customer >culpability can't be ruled out. But the facts >as reported don't support it, because there are >many circumstances in which bank account details >need to be published (e.g. they're on every >invoice my company ever sends out). So >publication of them in a column doesn't even >come close to being contributory negligence. > >In short, the bank needs to be named, and pursued with vigour. > > >-- >Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ > >Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA > Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 >mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ > >Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University >Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong >Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW >_______________________________________________ >Link mailing list >Link at mailman.anu.edu.au >http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link From link at todd.inoz.com Tue Jan 8 13:36:56 2008 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 13:36:56 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Clarkson stung after bank prank In-Reply-To: References: <200801072212.m07MC1ht020015@relay01.ispone.net.au> Message-ID: <200801080238.m082cYlL016719@ah.net> And when people ring you and say "Were from the national australia bank we want your date of birth for security reasons as stated in the Law" and yuo ask what law and they say they can't tell me because of the privacy act and you ask to speak to a supervisor who is about as useful so you ask to speak to a manager and "no one else works here" its about time to hang up :) So watch out for the new scam where they RING you and ask you personal questions, including your bank account number and other details. It would be effortless to record these responses, edit them into a suitable sequence and use them as a "voice proof" or authority to do transactions. Nup, not falling for it! At 09:47 AM 8/01/2008, Stilgherrian wrote: >On 8/1/08 9:11 AM, "Darryl (Dassa) Lynch" wrote: > > As someone who has had to publish account details so clients could make > > payments, my take on this is to only put up details of accounts > that require > > additional signitures to withdraw and not to publish the details of those > > who are associated with the accounts. > >Mayhaps. But if you have a business bank account and business banking >online, you can withdraw money from anyone's account without a signature. >You just upload a spreadsheet with account numbers and amounts, and bingo! > >This is how it works if a business is authorised to make direct debits from >your accounts, e.g. your ISP each month, or rent to your landlord. > >Of course in theory you're meant to have the account-holder's permission and >they're meant to have signed something, but we *are* talking about >fraudulent usage, are we not? Sure, the trail soon leads back to the >culprit, but that's what The Big Bad Guys use gullible cut-outs who've >responded to too-good-to-be-true offers in spam. > >Stil > > >-- >Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/ >Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia >mobile +61 407 623 600 >fax +61 2 9516 5630 >ABN 25 231 641 421 > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Link mailing list >Link at mailman.anu.edu.au >http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Tue Jan 8 13:41:45 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 13:41:45 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Weinstein: Aust to Require Mandatory ISP Filtering ... Message-ID: [It's valuable to get a reaction from outside our own domain. *Especially* when it's prettymuch what we've all been saying (:-)} ] Australia to Require Mandatory ISP Filtering of "Inappropriate" Content http://lauren.vortex.com/archive/000352.html Greetings. Can excessive ultraviolet light exposure cause brain damage to politicians? One might think so after reviewing the Australian government's plan to require ISPs to perform Chinese-style blocking of Internet sites that the government considers to be "inappropriate" for children -- based on a government blacklist http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,24897,22989956-15306,00.html Down in the merry old land of Oz, this mandatory blocking would apply by default to all home and school Internet subscribers. ISPs would have to be contacted individually by users who wished to obtain an unblocked feed by being added to an opt-out list (which I suspect would rapidly become known as the "pervert list" by the Australian overlords of Internet decency). I won't insult your intelligence by listing here the myriad reasons -- you know them as well as I do -- why such a plan is doomed to failure (but I will note that even the so-called "Great Firewall of China" Internet blocking infrastructure leaks like a sieve -- and that's in an environment where penalties can be very harsh indeed). Obviously, what we're actually looking at in the Australian case is political grandstanding of the most base sort. To make censored feeds available upon request is one thing, but to make censorship the default and then require persons to specifically identify themselves to opt-out is turning the concept of freedom of communications on its head. Speaking of heads, it wouldn't hurt the politicians down under to stay out of the summer sun, or at least wear hats more often. Fried brains are not conducive to the creation of sensible Internet (or any other) policies. And since the inane COPA and similar Internet censorship laws are still bouncing around the courts here in the U.S., the same prescription might well apply to our own politicians as well. "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" --Lauren-- Lauren Weinstein lauren at vortex.com or lauren at pfir.org Tel: +1 (818) 225-2800 http://www.pfir.org/lauren Co-Founder, PFIR - People For Internet Responsibility - http://www.pfir.org Co-Founder, NNSquad - Network Neutrality Squad - http://www.nnsquad.org Founder, PRIVACY Forum - http://www.vortex.com Member, ACM Committee on Computers and Public Policy Lauren's Blog: http://lauren.vortex.com _______________________________________________ privacy mailing list http://lists.vortex.com/mailman/listinfo/privacy -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Tue Jan 8 13:49:09 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 13:49:09 +1100 Subject: Reverse Gear [Was [LINK] Clarkson stung after bank prank] In-Reply-To: <200801080238.m082cYlJ016719@ah.net> References: <200801080238.m082cYlJ016719@ah.net> Message-ID: At 13:34 +1100 8/1/08, Adam Todd wrote: >Roger, the bank is Barclays :) >5th Paragraph :) Old advocate (and consultant) trick. Be vague, in order to ... Avoid being seen to skewer a specific organisation. Succeed in skewering a class of organisations. -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From link at todd.inoz.com Tue Jan 8 17:58:12 2008 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 17:58:12 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Weinstein: Aust to Require Mandatory ISP Filtering ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200801080659.m086xgIM022052@ah.net> At 01:41 PM 8/01/2008, Roger Clarke wrote: >[It's valuable to get a reaction from outside our own domain. >*Especially* when it's prettymuch what we've all been saying (:-)} ] > >Australia to Require Mandatory ISP Filtering of "Inappropriate" Content > > http://lauren.vortex.com/archive/000352.html > > >Greetings. Can excessive ultraviolet light exposure cause brain >damage to politicians? One might think so after reviewing the >Australian government's plan to require ISPs to perform >Chinese-style blocking of Internet sites that the government >considers to be "inappropriate" for children -- based on a >government blacklist Isn't the blacklist like Top Secret For the PM's eyes only? Cause EFA has been trying to get it for years and failed endlessly cause it's "too pornographic" for EFA to have! From brd at iimetro.com.au Tue Jan 8 22:48:33 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 22:48:33 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? Message-ID: <47836311.20709@iimetro.com.au> As technology based systems become more complex, CS students seem to becoming less widely educated, are focussed on the internet and less able to understand the complexity of modern systems. And I bet very few of them can even spell OLTP, let alone know what it means - and I am not referring to what the letters stand for. And just think, Bill Gates was raised on BASIC, and look at what he has left the world. Computer Science Education: Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? Crosstalk, the Journal of Defense Software Engineering http://www.stsc.hill.af.mil/CrossTalk/2008/01/0801DewarSchonberg.html Dr. Robert B.K. Dewar, AdaCore Inc. Dr. Edmond Schonberg, AdaCore Inc. It is our view that Computer Science (CS) education is neglecting basic skills, in particular in the areas of programming and formal methods. We consider that the general adoption of Java as a first programming language is in part responsible for this decline. We examine briefly the set of programming skills that should be part of every software professional?s repertoire. .... -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Wed Jan 9 08:37:29 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 08:37:29 +1100 Subject: [LINK] SMH: 'Singapore libel case a test of Murdoch's bona fides' Message-ID: Singapore libel case a test of Murdoch's bona fides The Sydney Morning Herald January 7, 2008 http://business.smh.com.au/singapore-libel-case-a-test-of-murdochs-bona-fides/20080106-1kg3.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap2 Dow Jones brought some unwanted baggage with it, Eric Ellis reports. THE TIMES asked readers recently "Is libel dead?" The number of defamation writs issued in British courts last year was about an eighth of the 457 writs 10 years earlier. The downward trends are similar in other Western jurisdictions such as Australia and North America, suggesting those who willingly stand in the public eye are becoming thicker-skinned in withstanding the decade's avalanche of media forms. Or perhaps the media are more careful about who they traduce, and how. But one place where libel remains a legal growth industry is in a tiny country desperate to become part of the developed world: among the sensitive political and business petals of Singapore. As Rupert Murdoch is himself finding out. That is because of a long-running case concerning Singapore's premier political family, the Lees; a case Murdoch's News Corporation inherited via its recently completed $US6 billion ($6.8 billion) purchase of Dow Jones. Lee family members include, of course, Singapore's elder statesman Lee Kuan Yew and his son, the Prime Minister, Lee Hsien Loong. The Lees have a long history of libel stoushes with foreign media, battles they have never lost when heard in Singapore's own courts, which grants them damages payouts that set world records. The (pre-Murdoch) Asian Wall Street Journal, Time, The International Herald Tribune, Businessweek, Bloomberg and the Financial Times are among other international names respected for their accuracy and authority that have been hit with the Lees' libel broadsides. And lost. The Lees have used similar tactics in seeking to silence political opponents. Remarks that might be regarded as just part of the rough-and-tumble of competitive political or business culture in Australia often head to the libel courts when aired in Singapore. However, it is one-way traffic. Opponents have never won an action against the Lees. Singapore is in effect a one-party state, and that party is the Lee party. Such is the presumption of a libel loss that most media companies now do not even take the fight to trial, instead promptly settling. They know that history says they will not win, and management usually decides that a quick settlement limits expensive legal bills - and possible even higher damages when Lee lawyers insist mid-trial that publicly heard evidence has further harmed sensitive reputations, which prevents airing of issues that may be germane to the case. It is not just the media. In 2001 what seemed to many bankers to be a normal tactical paper was prepared by Goldman Sachs on behalf of its local client DBS Bank. Goldman-DBS criticised the merits of a rival bid for a bank DBS was seeking to take over. Target and rival were miffed, complaining to the central bank, and each board soon pocketed $US1 million in damages from DBS, which did not get the deal. But the case Murdoch has inherited is different. It stems from a profile of the Singapore opposition figure Chee Soon Juan published in the Dow Jones-owned monthly The Far Eastern Economic Review in July 2006. In it Chee criticises the Government's handling of a local charity scandal. But Lees's lawyers saw a reputational attack and sued the Review on behalf of Lee Kuan Yew and Lee Hsien Loong. But on this occasion the magazine refused to roll over and settle. Much to Singaporean annoyance, the offending article remains posted on the Review website (alongside a link to human rights press awards). There are front-page pointers to all legal exchanges on the matter and an editor's letter explaining why the Review is taking the battle to the Lees. The Review's arguments are mostly about transparency and the rule of law, the very principles on which Singapore prides itself but many say does not practise with quite the gusto it claims. It is a case that poses particular issues for all protagonists. It will be the first time News and the Lees have crossed swords in a libel matter, which has become a perverse kind of rite of passage for other international media proprietors. The Lees have been the dominant political family in Singapore since the 1950s, about the same time Murdoch has been in charge of News Corp. Both have helped build institutions about the same size; News Corp's market worth approaches $US100 billion, Singapore's GDP a bit bigger. Both are expert at projecting power, and neither brook any challenge to their authority. The Review had argued, pre-Murdoch, that since it did not have an office or staff in Singapore, it should not be subject to Singapore law. It wanted the matter heard in Hong Kong, where it is based, and where it feels it would get a fairer hearing. The Lees have never won a case outside Singapore. In a letter to Singapore's Information Ministry, which has sought a bond from the Review in lieu of presumed damages and Singaporean jurisdiction over the Review, Dow Jones's lawyers argue "its imposition on the Review, merely for the sake of making it easier for senior ministers of the Singapore Government to recover personal damages in a libel action, would be deeply regretted by all who care for the rule of law in your country. "It is an exorbitant and unlawful demand that even totalitarian states have never sought to impose on media." And that is the way the matter has largely stayed since mid-2006, largely an exchange of testy lawyers' letters as Singapore throws out the Review's effort to end the action in Singapore. But then came Murdoch's successful bid for Dow Jones last year. The management that previously backed the Review's feistier approach to Singapore no longer runs the company, after Murdoch put in a new team. The status of the case is unclear. Outwardly, it seems as if nothing has changed, and a Murdoch-owned the Review is still taking on the Singaporeans. The articles and letters remain posted at the Review.com and the Review editors say it is still live, referring the matter to Dow Jones lawyers, who do not respond. The matter is pregnant with the notion of what constitutes credibility - Singapore's own sense of it and News's in the court of public opinion after the reputational shellacking it received en route to the Dow Jones win. Singapore's legal system is also under scrutiny. The US embassy in Singapore has frequently expressed concern about "the ruling party's use of the court system to intimidate political opponents". The Australian lawyer Stuart Littlemore, who has observed Singapore libel cases for the International Commission of Jurists, says "the Singapore leadership has a long-standing record of using the High Court as a mechanism for silencing its opponents - by suing them for statements that, in any comparable jurisdiction, would be seen as part of a robust political debate inseparable from democratic freedoms, and by being awarded such unconscionably high damages and costs as to bankrupt the defendants, forcing them out of parliament". Credibility was at the heart of the Murdoch bid for Dow Jones. There were numerous critics of his Dow Jones tilt - notably in its own newsrooms, and including some members of the publisher's controlling Bancroft family (which quickly put aside its gripes in accepting News's generous offer). The critics said Murdoch and News had insufficient credibility to be custodians of venerable media assets like The Wall Street Journal and The Far Eastern Economic Review. News Corporation prevailed after a searing battle in which Murdoch's personal and corporate reputation was assailed, almost to the point of him pulling out. Murdoch himself said bitterly that he was treated like a "genocidal tyrant". A significant aspect of the appeal of Dow Jones to Murdoch is its under-played assets in booming Asia, a region where Singapore interests are hugely influential, both politically and commercially, and where Murdoch thinks he can add much value absorbing Dow Jones into the rest of the News empire. But just as Murdoch has been cited as providing the type of media Asia does not want, notably by China, wealthy Singapore is often cited as a regional development model, particularly in effective one-party states like China and through Central Asia. It is an important, if sometimes self-serving, voice in the so-called Asian Values debate. Unlike many of his competitors, Murdoch's titles have never experienced a Singapore libel action. The city-state has rather been seen by News as a place to raise money and do business - notably in 2001 when Murdoch briefly entered a joint venture with Singapore's state-owned telecom (then run by a son of Lee Kuan Yew) in an unsuccessful bid for Hong Kong's leading telecom. But with this libel headache now on Murdoch's desk, Singapore faces a media company run by a dominant individual who is an archly pragmatic dealmaker when it suits him. That could mean wiggle room for legal negotiation except that, with libel, the Lees famously are not much for turning. Absolute victory is their goal. It will be fascinating to see how the battle plays out, mindful of the messages it could send around a democratising region where state control of media is evolving and where libel clearly is not yet dead. Eric Ellis is South-East Asian Correspondent for Fortune Magazine. [Declaration: I was an expert witness called by the solicitors for Dow Jones in the Gutnick defamation case, and the spectre of Singapore was part of the argument: http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/II/Gutnick.html -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Wed Jan 9 08:51:59 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 08:51:59 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Weinstein: Conroy Bananas Message-ID: Woody Allen, Google, and Internet Censorship http://lauren.vortex.com/archive/000353.html Greetings. Yesterday I briefly discussed the government's inane plan in Australia for mandatory ISP blocking of material considered "inappropriate" for children ( http://lauren.vortex.com/archive/000352.html ), to be enforced on all home and school customers unless they opt-out with their ISP ("raise your hand if you want the filthy, disgusting porn feed!"). As I've previously suggested, if customers wish to voluntarily sign-up to use blocking software (which typically allows for some degree of customization), or subscribe to an Internet feed supposedly "sanitized" via a government purity list (doomed to be unsuccessful, but more on that later) that's a valid choice, but forcing subscribers to opt-out is a reversal of a basic freedom of speech principle and cannot be condoned. I'm reminded of a scene in Woody Allen's 1971 film "Bananas" -- where he's subjected to a very loud and embarrassing price check while attempting to nonchalantly buy an "adult" magazine (praise be to YouTube, here's the scene itself -- at least for now ...): http://youtube.com/watch?v=JgOxqwVd5Z8 But beyond this aspect, the practical ramifications of such blocking are staggering, even apart from the fact that kids will be the very first to find the virtually infinite ways around such attempts at prohibition. What would the government block? Photos? Movies? Texts? Hardcore porn? "Suggestive" material? And speaking of YouTube, will Australia attempt to block that entire site? There's plenty of "naughty" stuff on YouTube, with more pouring in all the time, much of it uncategorized in any way that would simplify the blocking process. Or perhaps Australia will simply choose to place the entire operations of Google on their default block list. After all, search engines are a veritable cornucopia of "inappropriate" material that can be located with great ease. Google's cache will usually give access to the text portions of sites even if those sites are directly blocked to customers. And what of Google Images? Without even changing any settings from their defaults, Google Images can provide virtually endless photos and drawings (albeit somewhat small) that the Australian government would no doubt consider to be "inappropriate" or worse. And this brings us to the crux of the matter. Google and other search engines cannot be reasonably expected to be the arbiters of such materials in furtherance of censorship, and even when they're pressured into bed with government censors as the cost of access, the associated blocking will be pitifully ineffective, while still managing to do significant collateral damage to personal freedoms and privacy principles of the most fundamental order. In the long run, attempts to "effectively" forbid access to a set of Internet sites and/or to censor the contents of search engines, are likely to lead toward defining not those sites that are blocked, but rather a relatively small set of constrained sites that are the only ones *permitted*. In essence, all that is not explicitly authorized becomes forbidden. This is not a recent phenomenon of course. Such control has been the dream of totalitarian regimes and rulers since the invention of the printing press, and earlier. In the modern age, even when veneered with privacy-invasive "opt-out" provisions, we're seeing the same old dark specter of government control combined with shameless pandering to the most emotional fears of the populace, with the technical realities of the situation purposely marginalized or completely ignored. Luckily for us all, the Internet is a much more powerful tool for freedom of speech than the would-be dictators of decency can possibly realize. But the damage that can be done simply through attempts to choke the Net is still very real, and the risks of these efforts disrupting the delicate balance that keeps many societies free are omnipresent. The resulting negative impacts for everyone could be far worse than embarrassment from buying a magazine, of that much we can be sure. --Lauren-- Lauren Weinstein lauren at vortex.com or lauren at pfir.org Tel: +1 (818) 225-2800 http://www.pfir.org/lauren Co-Founder, PFIR - People For Internet Responsibility - http://www.pfir.org Co-Founder, NNSquad - Network Neutrality Squad - http://www.nnsquad.org Founder, PRIVACY Forum - http://www.vortex.com Member, ACM Committee on Computers and Public Policy Lauren's Blog: http://lauren.vortex.com _______________________________________________ privacy mailing list http://lists.vortex.com/mailman/listinfo/privacy -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Wed Jan 9 08:56:08 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 08:56:08 +1100 Subject: [LINK] SMH: 'Singapore libel case a test of Murdoch's bona fides' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6hhft4$ib5pp@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> At 08:37 AM 9/01/2008, Roger Clarke wrote: >The status of the case is unclear. Outwardly, it seems as if nothing >has changed, and a Murdoch-owned the Review is still taking on the >Singaporeans. The articles and letters remain posted at the >Review.com and the Review editors say it is still live, referring >the matter to Dow Jones lawyers, who do not respond. Could be they are looking for the wrong magazine. I tried that link and got a Princeton University publication. The editor at Princeton is probably scratching his head an wondering why he's being approached. The REAL URL is: http://www.feer.com/ Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From jwhit at janwhitaker.com Wed Jan 9 09:01:24 2008 From: jwhit at janwhitaker.com (Jan Whitaker) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 09:01:24 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Chinese 'control' of the internet Message-ID: <6hhft4$ib7og@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> An article in the Far Eastern Economic Review caught my attention. It's about internet censorship in China: http://www.feer.com/articles1/2007/0712/free/p018.html?Pulling_the_Strings_of_China%E2%80%99s_Internet Pulling the Strings of China's Internet December 2007 by David Bandurski When some of the world's top technology companies, including Yahoo!, Intel, Nokia and Ericsson, formed the Beijing Association of Online Media three years ago, the group seemed to be a typical trade association, sponsoring social activities and facilitating networking. Even when its activities widened last year to include "self-policing" the Internet, it seemed to be benign, targeting content that "contradicts social morality and Chinese traditional virtues," i.e. pornography. The message was that the companies were providing a public service in spaces used by Chinese teens, not helping the government maintain political control. Yet today it is clear that BAOM has become an active agent of the Chinese government's initiatives to stifle discussion of political issues. The group's slide into censorship shows how easily Beijing can co-opt Western firms into this effort. And BAOM is becoming a model in a new push to tighten control over Internet speech. [snip] Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Wed Jan 9 10:49:07 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 10:49:07 +1100 Subject: [LINK] electronic voting machines story Message-ID: <6hhft4$icr67@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> > >Can You Count on Voting Machines? > > > >By CLIVE THOMPSON, The New York Times Magazine, January 6, 2008 > >Jane Platten gestured, bleary-eyed, into the >secure room filled with voting machines. It was >3 a.m. on Nov. 7, and she had been working for >22 hours straight. "I guess we've seen how >technology can affect an election," she said. >The electronic voting machines in Cleveland were causing trouble again. > >For a while, it had looked as if things would go >smoothly for the Board of Elections office in >Cuyahoga County, Ohio. About 200,000 voters had >trooped out on the first Tuesday in November for >the lightly attended local elections, tapping >their choices onto the county's 5,729 >touch-screen voting machines. The elections >staff had collected electronic copies of the >votes on memory cards and taken them to the main >office, where dozens of workers inside a secure, >glass-encased room fed them into the "GEMS >server," a gleaming silver Dell desktop computer that tallies the votes. > >Then at 10 p.m., the server suddenly froze up >and stopped counting votes. Cuyahoga County >technicians clustered around the computer, >debating what to do. A young, business-suited >employee from Diebold?the company that makes the >voting machines used in Cuyahoga?peered into the >screen and pecked at the keyboard. No one could >figure out what was wrong. So, like anyone faced >with a misbehaving computer, they simply turned >it off and on again. Voil?: It started >working?until an hour later, when it crashed a >second time. Again, they rebooted. By the wee >hours, the server mystery still hadn't been solved. > >Worse was yet to come. When the votes were >finally tallied the next day, 10 races were so >close that they needed to be recounted. But when >Platten went to retrieve paper copies of each >vote?generated by the Diebold machines as they >worked?she discovered that so many printers had >jammed that 20 percent of the machines involved >in the recounted races lacked paper copies of >some of the votes. They weren't lost, >technically speaking; Platten could hit "print" >and a machine would generate a replacement copy. >But she had no way of proving that these >replacements were, indeed, what the voters had >voted. She could only hope the machines had worked correctly. > >Click here to keep reading: > >http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/06/magazine/06Vote-t.html >Then sign our urgent petition for paper ballots >before the November election. Just click here to add your name: > >http://pol.moveon.org/paper2008/o.pl?id=11874-6195608-Bjsowx&t=5 > >Sources: >1. "Can You Count on Voting Machines?," The New >York Times Magazine, January 6, 2008 >http://www.nytimes.com/magazine/ > >2. "Rep. Holt To Offer New Election Reform >Proposal," National Journal Tech Daily, December 10, 2007 >http://www.moveon.org/r?r=3310&id=&id=11874-6195608-Bjsowx&t=6 > >3. "Can You Count on Voting Machines?," The New >York Times Magazine, January 6, 2008 >http://www.nytimes.com/magazine/ > >4. "Rep. Rush Holt to Push for Paper Ballots and >Vote Count Audits for 2008," AlterNet, December 27, 2007 >http://www.alternet.org/democracy/71608/ Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From georgebray at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 11:12:41 2008 From: georgebray at gmail.com (George Bray) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 11:12:41 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Weinstein: Conroy Bananas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <635bd2180801081612y7bfbe3d9v448d6221f9d2c470@mail.gmail.com> "If you don't want internet filtering for any reason then you're a pornographer." George Filters needed to battle child porn Bernadette McMenamin | January 08, 2008 IT is beyond belief that some representatives of the Australian internet service provider industry are reluctant to install filters that would prevent access to child pornography. Bernadette McMenamin is the CEO of Child Wise, an Australian-based organisation working to prevent the sexual abuse and exploitation of children in Australia, Asia and the Pacific. From grove at zeta.org.au Wed Jan 9 11:29:40 2008 From: grove at zeta.org.au (grove at zeta.org.au) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 11:29:40 +1100 (EST) Subject: [LINK] electronic voting machines story In-Reply-To: <6hhft4$icr67@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> References: <6hhft4$icr67@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jan 2008, Jan Whitaker wrote: >> Can You Count on Voting Machines? Voting, like sex, is best without machines involved. rachel -- Rachel Polanskis Kingswood, Greater Western Sydney, Australia grove at zeta.org.au http://www.zeta.org.au/~grove/grove.html The price of greatness is responsibility. From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au Wed Jan 9 11:39:04 2008 From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 11:39:04 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Technology that exposes your dirty linen In-Reply-To: <4781F28D.5080803@hunterlink.net.au> References: <4781F28D.5080803@hunterlink.net.au> Message-ID: <20080109004003.96B1829901@heartbeat2.messagingengine.com> At 08:36 PM 7/01/2008, David Boxall wrote: >This bears on issues raised on Link in the past. Is it any more >accurate than previous efforts? > From >. . . >... "These concerns are exacerbated by the fact that individuals may >not be given notice that the products they purchase or the objects >they use contain RFID tags and may not be given the choice to remove >or disable RFID tags." ... You could pop the clothes in a microwave oven for a few seconds to destroy the RFID tags. Just make sure you do not have any metal buttons or zips . Perhaps this is a service dry cleaners could offer. ;-) >... Data-matching and data-mining allow information generated by >people doing ordinary things - such as using automatic teller >machines, paying with credit cards, using shopping loyalty cards or >smartcards, writing cheques ... Perhaps it has reached the point where the surveillance is so widespread that there is not point trying to regulate it at source, and it is the use to which the data is put which we need to concentrate on. Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington at tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 http://www.tomw.net.au/ Adjunct Senior Lecturer, ANU From brendansweb at optusnet.com.au Wed Jan 9 13:51:01 2008 From: brendansweb at optusnet.com.au (Brendan Scott) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 13:51:01 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Weinstein: Conroy Bananas In-Reply-To: <635bd2180801081612y7bfbe3d9v448d6221f9d2c470@mail.gmail.com> References: <635bd2180801081612y7bfbe3d9v448d6221f9d2c470@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47843695.1040104@optusnet.com.au> George Bray wrote: > "If you don't want internet filtering for any reason then you're a > pornographer." > > George > > Filters needed to battle child porn > Bernadette McMenamin | January 08, 2008 > > IT is beyond belief that some representatives of the Australian > internet service provider industry are reluctant to install filters > that would prevent access to child pornography. > > > > Bernadette McMenamin is the CEO of Child Wise, an Australian-based > organisation working to prevent the sexual abuse and exploitation of > children in Australia, Asia and the Pacific. I'm not following, I thought that the proposal was that anyone could elect to opt out of the filters? If so, this argument doesn't make much sense to me. Brendan From brendansweb at optusnet.com.au Wed Jan 9 13:52:14 2008 From: brendansweb at optusnet.com.au (Brendan Scott) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 13:52:14 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Technology that exposes your dirty linen In-Reply-To: <20080109004003.96B1829901@heartbeat2.messagingengine.com> References: <4781F28D.5080803@hunterlink.net.au> <20080109004003.96B1829901@heartbeat2.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <478436DE.9040809@optusnet.com.au> Tom Worthington wrote: > At 08:36 PM 7/01/2008, David Boxall wrote: >> This bears on issues raised on Link in the past. Is it any more >> accurate than previous efforts? >> From >> . . . >> ... "These concerns are exacerbated by the fact that individuals may >> not be given notice that the products they purchase or the objects >> they use contain RFID tags and may not be given the choice to remove >> or disable RFID tags." ... > > You could pop the clothes in a microwave oven for a few seconds to > destroy the RFID tags. Just make sure you do not have any metal buttons > or zips > . > Perhaps this is a service dry cleaners could offer. ;-) > >> ... Data-matching and data-mining allow information generated by >> people doing ordinary things - such as using automatic teller >> machines, paying with credit cards, using shopping loyalty cards or >> smartcards, writing cheques ... > > Perhaps it has reached the point where the surveillance is so widespread > that there is not point trying to regulate it at source, and it is the > use to which the data is put which we need to concentrate on. Wouldn't it be likely that consumer RFID detectors/destroyers would be manufactured over time? B From peter at ratbags.com Wed Jan 9 14:00:04 2008 From: peter at ratbags.com (Peter Bowditch) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 14:00:04 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Not India for a change Message-ID: <4784D364.5147.57BDEA0@peter.ratbags.com> I just received a telemarketing call on my mobile from some accented person in "North Sydney" trying to sell me cheap telephone calls. There was the usual satellite delay that we all expect when people in North Sydney ring Parramatta. What the idiots forgot to do was block caller ID, and before I answered I wondered who would be calling me from country code +20. (I get the occasional call from the USA, but almost never from anywhere else.) Egypt. At least it wasn't India. Maybe the Indians have started outsourcing, or perhaps they are hiding until the cricket brouhaha is over. -- Peter Bowditch The Millenium Project - http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud - http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics - http://www.skeptics.com.au From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Wed Jan 9 14:23:59 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 14:23:59 +1100 Subject: OT!! Re: [LINK] Not India for a change In-Reply-To: <4784D364.5147.57BDEA0@peter.ratbags.com> References: <4784D364.5147.57BDEA0@peter.ratbags.com> Message-ID: At 14:00 +1100 9/1/08, Peter Bowditch wrote: >At least it wasn't India. Maybe the Indians have started outsourcing, or >perhaps they are hiding until the cricket brouhaha is over. Hiding?? That's what they'd like to give *us* right now. Apart from which, they'd have a good chance of finding a lot of respondents would be upset about firstly the performance of the umpires, secondly the behaviour of Australian players, thirdly the arrogance of the Australian captain, and only fourthly the behaviour of one Indian player. -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Wed Jan 9 14:23:39 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 14:23:39 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Technology that exposes your dirty linen In-Reply-To: <478436DE.9040809@optusnet.com.au> References: <4781F28D.5080803@hunterlink.net.au> <20080109004003.96B1829901@heartbeat2.messagingengine.com> <478436DE.9040809@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <6hhft4$ifsai@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> At 01:52 PM 9/01/2008, Brendan Scott wrote: > > Perhaps it has reached the point where the surveillance is so widespread > > that there is not point trying to regulate it at source, and it is the > > use to which the data is put which we need to concentrate on. > >Wouldn't it be likely that consumer RFID detectors/destroyers would >be manufactured over time? I served on the privacy code for retail RFID use last year and before. I've been waiting for nearly 12 MONTHS for the president of the Australian Retailers Association, Michael Lonie, to send me the documentation that requires that data collected at point of purchase may not be data mined. He has yet to provide that information. I've refrained from making this public until now, but this point about extended uses and how the consumer might protect themselves provides a relevancy to share that information. I've copied him and other key members of the panel on this message, perhaps to shame him into meeting his on-going, yet unfulfilled, commitment to show me, in writing, as was said my him multiple times exists. I've been told there is a law, a rule, and the last a 'guideline'. I am yet to see any of that, even the unenforceable guideline. Time to put up or strengthen the code, Michael. The cat is out of the bag. The recently approved code that is under the management of that same Australian Retailers Association can be found at: http://www.ara.com.au/765.html Jan consumer volunteer representing CHOICE on the panel Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From peter at ratbags.com Wed Jan 9 16:04:03 2008 From: peter at ratbags.com (Peter Bowditch) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 16:04:03 +1100 Subject: OT!! Re: [LINK] Not India for a change In-Reply-To: References: <4784D364.5147.57BDEA0@peter.ratbags.com>, Message-ID: <4784F073.32766.5ED62BE@peter.ratbags.com> Roger said: > At 14:00 +1100 9/1/08, Peter Bowditch wrote: > >At least it wasn't India. Maybe the Indians have started outsourcing, > or > >perhaps they are hiding until the cricket brouhaha is over. > > Hiding?? Perhaps I should have said "low profile". > > That's what they'd like to give *us* right now. > > Apart from which, they'd have a good chance of finding a lot of > respondents would be upset about firstly the performance of the > umpires, secondly the behaviour of Australian players, thirdly the > arrogance of the Australian captain, and only fourthly the behaviour > of one Indian player. When it got close to the end of the last test I was hoping for a draw because I could foresee the gloating and the arrogance coming. The only thing worse than a poor loser is a poor winner, and when you get that combined with "I got away with it" it is even harder to like. In the final of the Hopman Cup last week Mardy Fish lost a point when a shot from his opponent was called good even though it landed about 15cm past the baseline. Fish just looked at the spot on the ground where the ball had landed, said nothing and went on to win the match. He would never get a spot in an Australian cricket team. -- Peter Bowditch The Millenium Project - http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud - http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics - http://www.skeptics.com.au From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Wed Jan 9 16:08:18 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 16:08:18 +1100 Subject: [LINK] New Google patent may improve image search, AdSense, maps Message-ID: [Here we go again: another rubbish patent, whose purpose is primarily to slow down the company's competitors and force up their costs and risks, and secondarily to contribute to the company's war-chest of counter-patents. [Are there any Kiwis around who are familiar with the history of OCR technology and have the energy to attack the big G? Wikipedia's entry starts with "In 1929, Gustav Tauschek obtained a patent on OCR in Germany ...". [To be clear - good on Google for applying technology in fairly-new ways (they're almost always a second-mover, not an originator), and on a largish scale, and with plenty of money to put into it. It's the anti-competitive aspect, glossed by the pretence of a halo, that's so very annoying. New Google patent may improve image search, AdSense, maps By David Chartier | Published: January 08, 2008 - 11:45AM CT http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080108-for-a-new-google-patent-a-picture-truly-is-worth-1000-words.html The days of manually adding things like keywords and location information to images could soon be behind us, thanks to a new Google patent published this week detailing the company's move into extracting text from images and creating keywords from it (e.g., reading a street or business sign in a curbside shot and adding that text to the image's metadata). Considering the gold mine of products and services Google has on the table and in the pipeline, this technology could open new doors for both consumers and Google's profits. Detailed in the patent, called Recognizing Text in Images, are various methods for accomplishing exactly what the title says. Google details processes for analyzing a digital image, enhancing regions, extracting text, and using or comparing that text against other information or keywords included with the image. Naturally, this technology seems to lend itself to basic services like Google Image Search, which could benefit greatly from having more searchable data about the images it catalogs. Portions of Google's patent hint at more intriguing applications, however, such as tying into location-based services: "Additionally, the extracted image text can be combined with location data and indexed to improve and enhance location-based searching. The extracted text can provide keywords for identifying particular locations and presenting images of the identified locations to a user." Being able to automatically, and reliably, generate location data for images has applications across nearly any field one can think of, from consumer services to advertising to law enforcement. This patent may also represent one of the first forays into the next generation of search technologies by a major search player. For a few years now, various organizations have been working on boosting the power of existing OCR systems to work with context-sensitive search. Startups like Riya have been working on facial and object recognition technologies, with one of Riya's first product being a "visual search engine" that allows users to shop for items based on color, shape, and pattern. Google's industry-dominating array of products and services, however, will allow it to implement this text in image technology on a far larger and more profitable scale. It isn't hard to see products like AdWords, AdSense, and even Gmail benefiting greatly from being able to peer inside images for contextual advertising; even Google Book Search could benefit. Google Maps and Google Earth gain new functionality for users and advertisers if the company is able to automatically extract streets, business names, and other pertinent info from the mounds of mapping data it collects for these products. -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From ivan at itrundle.com Wed Jan 9 16:24:54 2008 From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 16:24:54 +1100 Subject: [LINK] New Google patent may improve image search, AdSense, maps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21B8DE89-7E00-4201-8D16-E47E46AA7559@itrundle.com> On 09/01/2008, at 4:08 PM, Roger Clarke wrote: > [Here we go again: another rubbish patent, whose purpose is > primarily to slow down the company's competitors and force up their > costs and risks, and secondarily to contribute to the company's war- > chest of counter-patents. > > [Are there any Kiwis around who are familiar with the history of OCR > technology and have the energy to attack the big G? Wikipedia's > entry starts with "In 1929, Gustav Tauschek obtained a patent on OCR > in Germany ...". > > [To be clear - good on Google for applying technology in fairly-new > ways (they're almost always a second-mover, not an originator), and > on a largish scale, and with plenty of money to put into it. It's > the anti-competitive aspect, glossed by the pretence of a halo, > that's so very annoying. > > > New Google patent may improve image search, AdSense, maps > By David Chartier | Published: January 08, 2008 - 11:45AM CT > http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080108-for-a-new-google-patent-a-picture-truly-is-worth-1000-words.html > > The days of manually adding things like keywords and location > information to images could soon be behind us, thanks to a new > Google patent published this week detailing the company's move into > extracting text from images and creating keywords from it... I doubt very much that we will ever be *thankful* for any patent. But I live in hope. iT From stil at stilgherrian.com Wed Jan 9 17:55:31 2008 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 17:55:31 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Weinstein: Conroy Bananas In-Reply-To: <635bd2180801081612y7bfbe3d9v448d6221f9d2c470@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > Filters needed to battle child porn > Bernadette McMenamin | January 08, 2008 > > IT is beyond belief that some representatives of the Australian > internet service provider industry are reluctant to install filters > that would prevent access to child pornography. > > My response here: http://stilgherrian.com/politics/magick_child_porn_filters/ I've also forwarded the link to Ms McMenamin for a comment. Stil -- Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/ Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia mobile +61 407 623 600 fax +61 2 9516 5630 ABN 25 231 641 421 From rick at praxis.com.au Wed Jan 9 18:32:34 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 18:32:34 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Weinstein: Conroy Bananas In-Reply-To: <47843695.1040104@optusnet.com.au> References: <635bd2180801081612y7bfbe3d9v448d6221f9d2c470@mail.gmail.com> <47843695.1040104@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <47847892.1070003@praxis.com.au> Brendan Scott wrote: > George Bray wrote: >> Filters needed to battle child porn >> Bernadette McMenamin | January 08, 2008 >> >> IT is beyond belief that some representatives of the Australian >> internet service provider industry are reluctant to install filters >> that would prevent access to child pornography. > > I'm not following, I thought that the proposal was that anyone could elect to opt out of the filters? > If so, this argument doesn't make much sense to me. What I am not following is what is intended to be filtered. Is it just child pron? Is it any "unclean" material, whatever that means? I wonder if Ms McMenamin would be happy with an opt-in system for filtering? She is blissfully and concernedly unaware that an opt-out filter is an infringement on freedom of speech, censorship of mass media and will not attain its intended goal. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Border relations between Canada and Mexico have never been better. -- George W Bush From georgebray at gmail.com Wed Jan 9 18:33:36 2008 From: georgebray at gmail.com (George Bray) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:33:36 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Weinstein: Conroy Bananas In-Reply-To: <47843695.1040104@optusnet.com.au> References: <635bd2180801081612y7bfbe3d9v448d6221f9d2c470@mail.gmail.com> <47843695.1040104@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <635bd2180801082333x908fc7cje515ea19c1e8fd9a@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 9, 2008 1:51 PM, Brendan Scott wrote: > I'm not following, I thought that the proposal was that anyone could elect to opt out of the filters? > If so, this argument doesn't make much sense to me. I just don't feel that anyone (Govt, carriers, ISPs) has the ability to achieve their censorship goal, and in the meantime everyone by default gets poorer internet performance. Leave alone the question of who decides what gets filtered and the prospect of some future authority extending the scope of censorship into other realms deemed "inappropriate". Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia. More comments are now under the original article. Right on Stil. -- George Bray, The Australian National University, Canberra, Australia. From rick at praxis.com.au Wed Jan 9 18:39:52 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 18:39:52 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Not India for a change In-Reply-To: <4784D364.5147.57BDEA0@peter.ratbags.com> References: <4784D364.5147.57BDEA0@peter.ratbags.com> Message-ID: <47847A48.3040006@praxis.com.au> Peter Bowditch wrote: > What the idiots forgot to do was block caller ID, and before I answered I > wondered who would be calling me from country code +20. (I get the > occasional call from the USA, but almost never from anywhere else.) > > Egypt. Haven't you heard? The latest rendering technique is to banish a suspected terrorist to a call centre in Egypt and have them chained to their work station 24/7. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Border relations between Canada and Mexico have never been better. -- George W Bush From ivan at itrundle.com Wed Jan 9 19:03:06 2008 From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 19:03:06 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Weinstein: Conroy Bananas In-Reply-To: <635bd2180801082333x908fc7cje515ea19c1e8fd9a@mail.gmail.com> References: <635bd2180801081612y7bfbe3d9v448d6221f9d2c470@mail.gmail.com> <47843695.1040104@optusnet.com.au> <635bd2180801082333x908fc7cje515ea19c1e8fd9a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <014B9553-F27B-4D9A-9C83-757273774110@itrundle.com> On 09/01/2008, at 6:33 PM, George Bray wrote: > On Jan 9, 2008 1:51 PM, Brendan Scott > wrote: > >> I'm not following, I thought that the proposal was that anyone >> could elect to opt out of the filters? >> If so, this argument doesn't make much sense to me. > > I just don't feel that anyone (Govt, carriers, ISPs) has the ability > to achieve their censorship goal, and in the meantime everyone by > default gets poorer internet performance. Leave alone the question of > who decides what gets filtered and the prospect of some future > authority extending the scope of censorship into other realms deemed > "inappropriate". It appears that governments and less-than-clueful people assume that filters work because it is so easy to apply a regime AGAINST child porn (or whatever). However, this also assumes that detecting and tracing child porn (or other evil material) is a trivial task, and that maintaining a filter table is easily managed by a combination of computing power and human intelligence. Why is it that political leaders and others in levels of society believe that this is so? I would have thought that it was very easily demonstrable that finding *all* of the evil stuff is not that easy, and that filtering only part of it using a range of guesses a sub-optimal solution. The collateral damage caused by weak/ineffective/incomplete/inaccurate filters will have an immediate effect on the community, as as been discussed at length on Link and elsewhere. iT From stephen at melbpc.org.au Wed Jan 9 19:11:05 2008 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen at melbpc.org.au) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 08:11:05 GMT Subject: [LINK] Weinstein: Conroy Bananas Message-ID: <20080109081105.0B421174B5@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> Roger forwards: > Woody Allen, Google, and Internet Censorship > http://lauren.vortex.com/archive/000353.html > > Greetings. Yesterday I briefly discussed the government's inane > plan in Australia for mandatory ISP blocking of material considered > "inappropriate" for children .. > > Or perhaps Australia will simply choose to place the entire > operations of Google on their default block list .. Google is already blocked in all Victorian state schools, because porn sites are available in their archives, bypassing individual url filters, and hence Google has been blocked in Vic schools for six years or so. No one says the gov must give access to porn to state-school children. As for the wider community, personally I'd prefer that kiddie-porn websites were at least given an equilivant of a 'shrink wrap' protection, because that's the sort of society I would prefer to live in. And I believe that many Australians agree. If this is so, the question is, how to do this? > Lauren Weinstein > lauren at vortex.com or lauren at pfir.org > Tel: +1 (818) 225-2800 > http://www.pfir.org/lauren > Co-Founder, PFIR > - People For Internet Responsibility - http://www.pfir.org > Co-Founder, NNSquad > - Network Neutrality Squad - http://www.nnsquad.org > Founder, PRIVACY Forum - http://www.vortex.com > Member, ACM Committee on Computers and Public Policy > Lauren's Blog: http://lauren.vortex.com > _______________________________________________ > privacy mailing list > http://lists.vortex.com/mailman/listinfo/privacy Cheers people Stephen Loosley Victoria Australia From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Wed Jan 9 19:06:55 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 19:06:55 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Weinstein: Conroy Bananas In-Reply-To: References: <635bd2180801081612y7bfbe3d9v448d6221f9d2c470@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6hhft4$ik1f9@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> At 05:55 PM 9/01/2008, Stilgherrian wrote: >My response here: > > http://stilgherrian.com/politics/magick_child_porn_filters/ Your approach made me think to do the same on my blog with my comment to the Australian. They edited mine, too. commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Jan Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Thu Jan 10 07:34:19 2008 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (Richard Chirgwin) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:34:19 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Weinstein: Conroy Bananas In-Reply-To: <014B9553-F27B-4D9A-9C83-757273774110@itrundle.com> References: <635bd2180801081612y7bfbe3d9v448d6221f9d2c470@mail.gmail.com> <47843695.1040104@optusnet.com.au> <635bd2180801082333x908fc7cje515ea19c1e8fd9a@mail.gmail.com> <014B9553-F27B-4D9A-9C83-757273774110@itrundle.com> Message-ID: <47852FCB.2080806@ozemail.com.au> Ivan Trundle wrote: > > On 09/01/2008, at 6:33 PM, George Bray wrote: > >> On Jan 9, 2008 1:51 PM, Brendan Scott >> wrote: >> >>> I'm not following, I thought that the proposal was that anyone could >>> elect to opt out of the filters? >>> If so, this argument doesn't make much sense to me. >> >> I just don't feel that anyone (Govt, carriers, ISPs) has the ability >> to achieve their censorship goal, and in the meantime everyone by >> default gets poorer internet performance. Leave alone the question of >> who decides what gets filtered and the prospect of some future >> authority extending the scope of censorship into other realms deemed >> "inappropriate". > > It appears that governments and less-than-clueful people assume that > filters work because it is so easy to apply a regime AGAINST child > porn (or whatever). However, this also assumes that detecting and > tracing child porn (or other evil material) is a trivial task, and > that maintaining a filter table is easily managed by a combination of > computing power and human intelligence. > > Why is it that political leaders and others in levels of society > believe that this is so? Because they've all seen demonstrations from vendors "proving" that the filters work, and heard long dissertations on how the blacklists are continuously updated; and because it doesn't really matter if the filter does / does not work, as long as you can stand up with a media statement about protecting Strayan families online. RC > > I would have thought that it was very easily demonstrable that finding > *all* of the evil stuff is not that easy, and that filtering only part > of it using a range of guesses a sub-optimal solution. > > The collateral damage caused by weak/ineffective/incomplete/inaccurate > filters will have an immediate effect on the community, as as been > discussed at length on Link and elsewhere. > > iT > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link at mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > From jwhit at janwhitaker.com Thu Jan 10 10:07:29 2008 From: jwhit at janwhitaker.com (Jan Whitaker) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:07:29 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: RE: Access Card site Message-ID: <6hhft4$iu9rg@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> Do any linkers have advice on this situation? Is there a protocol for requesting that archived material be made available without self-identification through a gatekeeper? Jan > >Have you seen what http://www.accesscard.gov.au/ looks like now? > > > >It mentions archived content but doesn't say where it is. > > > >Any ideas where it might be? > >ME: From the site: > A new Government led by the Leader of the Australian Labor >Party, The Hon. Kevin Rudd MP, was sworn in by the Governor-General >on 3 December 2007. > > Content on this website is currently being reviewed. Any >questions relating to archived content can be directed to the Web >Content Manager through the >Feedback facility >on this site. > >==== >Looks like the only way you can get to the previous info is to ask >and identify yourself. Is this kosher? Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au Thu Jan 10 10:20:26 2008 From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:20:26 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? In-Reply-To: <47836311.20709@iimetro.com.au> References: <47836311.20709@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <20080109232704.220C9272DE@heartbeat2.messagingengine.com> At 10:48 PM 8/01/2008, Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: >... As technology based systems become more complex, CS students >seem to becoming less widely educated, are focussed on the internet >and less able to understand the complexity of modern systems. ... Keep in mind that software engineering and computer science are not the same: like the difference between theoretical physics and engineering. A knowledge of how particles interact will only help so much when building things in the real world for real people. The software engineers at ANU are frighteningly well educated in both the basics of computer science, project management and testing . There is a constant debate amongst the staff (and students) about using commercially popular computer languages versus theoretically sound teaching ones and on the technicalities versus soft skills (like how to write a report and give a presentation). The students end up being able to do a bit of each. The best of them are quite able to, and have built, very complex systems quickly and reliably, such as electronic voting systems (some worked on the ACT system), analysis of the radar on warships and data mining for the intelligence services. However, the soft skills about human to human commutation still flummox undergraduate students, who have great difficulty with team work and report writing. Some staff argue there is no substitute for experience and that only mature age students with work experience should do software engineering. But the undergraduates can manage to use quite complex software engineering standards and use software tools to help structure their interactions. What I find startling is the way the Internet and web software can increase the productivity of a good software engineer. The students can produce systems in days which would previously have taken teams experienced qualified professionals months or years to do. But this is only after a clear specification as to what the system is to do has been worked out. Shane Flint at ANU has come up with a technique called "Aspect-Oriented Thinking" which he claims can solve some of the specification problems . Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington at tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 http://www.tomw.net.au/ Adjunct Senior Lecturer, ANU From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Thu Jan 10 12:06:32 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 12:06:32 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Technology that exposes your dirty linen In-Reply-To: <20080109004003.96B1829901@heartbeat2.messagingengine.com> References: <4781F28D.5080803@hunterlink.net.au> <20080109004003.96B1829901@heartbeat2.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: At 11:39 +1100 9/1/08, Tom Worthington wrote: >Perhaps it has reached the point where the surveillance is so >widespread that there is not point trying to regulate it at source, >and it is the use to which the data is put which we need to >concentrate on. I don't in the least accept the defeatism inherent in that. But it reminded me of this proposal for data self-destruction: Escaping the data panopticon: Prof says computers must learn to "forget" By Nate Anderson | Published: May 09, 2007 - 08:52AM CT http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070509-escaping-the-data-panopticon-teaching-computers-to-forget.html The rise of fast processors and cheap storage means that remembering, once incredibly difficult for humans, has become simple. Viktor Mayer-Sch?nberger, a professor in Harvard's JFK School of Government, argues that this shift has been bad for society, and he calls instead for a new era of "forgetfulness." Mayer-Sch?nberger lays out his idea in a faculty research working paper called "Useful Void: The Art of Forgetting in the Age of Ubiquitous Computing," where he describes his plan as reinstating "the default of forgetting our societies have experienced for millennia." Why would we want our machines to "forget"? Mayer-Sch?nberger suggests that we are creating a Benthamist panopticon by archiving so many bits of knowledge for so long. The accumulated weight of stored Google searches, thousands of family photographs, millions of books, credit bureau information, air travel reservations, massive government databases, archived e-mail, etc., can actually be a detriment to speech and action, he argues. "If whatever we do can be held against us years later, if all our impulsive comments are preserved, they can easily be combined into a composite picture of ourselves," he writes in the paper. "Afraid how our words and actions may be perceived years later and taken out of context, the lack of forgetting may prompt us to speak less freely and openly." In other words, it threatens to make us all politicians. In contrast to omnibus data protection legislation, Mayer-Sch?nberger proposes a combination of law and software to ensure that most data is "forgotten" by default. A law would decree that "those who create software that collects and stores data build into their code not only the ability to forget with time, but make such forgetting the default." Essentially, this means that all collected data is tagged with a new piece of metadata that defines when the information should expire. In practice, this would mean that iTunes could only store buying data for a limited time, a time defined by law. Should customers explicitly want this time extended, that would be fine, but people must be given a choice. Even data created by users-digital pictures, for example-would be tagged by the cameras that create them to expire in a year or two; pictures that people want to keep could simply be given a date 10,000 years in the future. Mayer-Sch?nberger wants to help us avoid becoming digital pack rats, and he wants to curtail the amount of time that companies and governments can collate data about users and citizens "just because they can." Whenever there's a real need to do so, data can be retained, but setting the default expiration date forces organizations to decide if they truly do need to retain that much data forever. It's a "modest" proposal, according to Mayer-Sch?nberger, but he recognizes that others may see it as "simplistic" or "radical." To those who feel like they are living in a panopticon, it might feel more like a chink in the wall through which fresh air blows. -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From rene.lk at libertus.net Thu Jan 10 16:26:53 2008 From: rene.lk at libertus.net (Irene Graham) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:26:53 +1000 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: RE: Access Card site In-Reply-To: <6hhft4$iu9rg@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <2008110152653.605066@c990> On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:07:29 +1100, Jan Whitaker wrote: > Do any linkers have advice on this situation? Is there a protocol for > requesting that archived material be made available without self- > identification through a gatekeeper? No, but if you're looking for anything pre 7 Feb 2007, it's likely findable from here: http://pandora.nla.gov.au/pan/65938/20070207-0000/www.accesscard.gov.au/ind ex.html (7 Feb 2007 was when pandora/NLA last archived it, according to: http://pandora.nla.gov.au/tep/65938 Irene From graham at austlii.edu.au Thu Jan 10 16:41:10 2008 From: graham at austlii.edu.au (Graham Greenleaf) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:41:10 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: RE: Access Card site In-Reply-To: <2008110152653.605066@c990> References: <2008110152653.605066@c990> Message-ID: Hi Irene, That's the problem isn't it: Pandora, though very valuable, falls well short of what any mandatory deposit scheme for electronic materials would require by way of currency of major site replication. Regards, Graham At 3:26 PM +1000 10/1/08, Irene Graham wrote: >On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:07:29 +1100, Jan Whitaker wrote: > >> Do any linkers have advice on this situation? Is there a protocol for >> requesting that archived material be made available without self- >> identification through a gatekeeper? > >No, but if you're looking for anything pre 7 Feb 2007, it's likely findable >from here: > >http://pandora.nla.gov.au/pan/65938/20070207-0000/www.accesscard.gov.au/ind >ex.html > >(7 Feb 2007 was when pandora/NLA last archived it, according to: >http://pandora.nla.gov.au/tep/65938 > >Irene >_______________________________________________ >Link mailing list >Link at mailman.anu.edu.au >http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link -- -- Graham Greenleaf Professor of Law Faculty of Law, University of New South Wales UNSW SYDNEY NSW 2052 Australia (UNSW CRICOS Provider No: 00098G) Co-Director, Australasian Legal Information Institute (AustLII) Co-Director, Cyberspace Law and Policy Centre Asia-Pacific Editor, Privacy Laws & Business International E-mail: g.greenleaf at unsw.edu.au or graham at austlii.edu.au Web Pages - http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~graham/ Legal Scholarship Network (LSN) pages - http://ssrn.com/author=57970 Tel: +61 2 9385 2233 (UNSW) +61 2 9569 5310 (Home) Fax: +61 2 9385 1175 (UNSW) Office: Room 224, Law Faculty Building, UNSW ************************************************************************* From grove at zeta.org.au Thu Jan 10 21:05:46 2008 From: grove at zeta.org.au (grove at zeta.org.au) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:05:46 +1100 (EST) Subject: [LINK] Reply from Premier, re power poll Message-ID: Hi, recently there was an online petition regarding the sale of Electricity assets in NSW. The petition was hosted by union groups and we were encouraged to sign up and provide an email address, as a means of identifying a unique poll. Anyway, the petition was submitted, and I've actually received an email reply from "the premier". I do not recall this happening when petitioning similar polls against Howard Govt policies. I never expected this - very interesting and I do not know whether to be alarmed or praising the effort! See below... rachel -- Rachel Polanskis Kingswood, Greater Western Sydney, Australia grove at zeta.org.au http://www.zeta.org.au/~grove/grove.html The price of greatness is responsibility. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:15:31 +1100 From: thepremier To: grove at zeta.org.au Subject: AA07/29679 - Electricity supply in NSW Dear Ms Polanskis The Premier has received your correspondence about the recently announced changes to the NSW electricity sector, and has asked me to reply to you on his behalf. The NSW electricity supply needs to keep up with the energy requirements of families and businesses across the State. NSW needs new baseload electricity generation built by about 2014. To secure NSW???s future energy needs at no cost to taxpayers, the NSW Government has accepted the key recommendation of the Owen Inquiry into Electricity Supply in NSW to restructure ownership arrangements for its electricity generation and retail businesses. The restructure will involve the transfer of the Government???s retail electricity functions to the private sector, and the lease of NSW power stations, with the exception of Snowy Hydro. All current electricity infrastructure assets will remain in public ownership. That includes the power stations and the transmission and distribution ???poles and wires??? of the State-owned companies EnergyAustralia, Integral Energy and Country Energy, as well as TransGrid. The reforms will create the right conditions and incentives for the private sector to invest in baseload generation in New South Wales, saving taxpayers up to $15 billion and unlocking funds for investment in roads, trains, hospitals, schools and other essential infrastructure. The changes will also mean that people working in the electricity sector have a strong and secure employment future. All current public sector retail and generation workers are guaranteed jobs in their current locations across the State. You may be assured that electricity customers (households and small businesses) will continue to be protected by regulated retail prices set by the Independent Pricing and Regulatory Tribunal, to at least 2013 or until the Government is satisfied there is sufficient competition in the retail energy market. The Government will also maintain its strong customer protection regulations and its social programs, including pensioner concessions. The Government has also announced an environmental protection package including a new Energy Efficiency Strategy and additional funds for a $100 million Renewable Energy Development Fund, to ensure the State remains in a strong position to tackle the ongoing challenges of climate change. The Energy Efficiency Strategy was developed following consultation with environmental groups. The Strategy will deliver a range of measures to assist families and businesses to reduce their energy consumption and save money on electricity bills. The Government will now develop detailed plans for the use of proceeds from the transfer of assets. While it will take time to finalise these plans, the Premier has indicated that priority areas for new investment will include: ??? urban transport initiatives, such as Euro-style metro technology and the extension of the M4; ??? upgrades to rural water and sewerage infrastructure; ??? rural and regional road transport infrastructure; ??? the new Energy Efficiency Strategy; and ??? supporting the development of clean energy, including clean coal and renewables. Thank you for taking the time to write to the Premier on this issue. Yours sincerely J.L Schmidt for Robyn Kruk Director General Department of Premier and Cabinet From arsptr at internode.on.net Thu Jan 10 22:56:57 2008 From: arsptr at internode.on.net (Alastair Rankine) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:56:57 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? In-Reply-To: <47836311.20709@iimetro.com.au> References: <47836311.20709@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <47860809.3010703@internode.on.net> Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > > As technology based systems become more complex, CS students seem to > becoming less widely educated, are focussed on the internet and less > able to understand the complexity of modern systems. Bernard, just out of interest, how did you come upon this view? The three criticisms you mention are quite subjective and difficult to quantify. If you are observing this as a trend for applications to your organisation, perhaps this can be explained as a sampling bias? In other words the more widely educated, perhaps more capable students are applying to positions elsewhere? (I'm not attempting to denigrate your organisation, just observing that Google, for example, is a pretty tough competitor for talented CS graduates these days...) > And I bet very few of them can even spell OLTP, let alone know what it > means - and I am not referring to what the letters stand for. Another possible sampling bias. I'm sure OLTP is important in your occupation but can I just say that it has absolutely no relevance in my current position. In fact I've managed to completely avoid CICS and similar technologies for my entire career - but let me assure you that my educational background is by no means focused on the internet, nor on any other specific vocational area. However I'm sympathetic to your underlying point: with minimal discussion I'm sure we could agree on a few indispensable technologies and skills that the CS Youth Of Today don't have a clue about. > And just think, Bill Gates was raised on BASIC, and look at what he > has left the world. I doubt this very much (assembler was almost certainly Bill's first language of choice) but in any case what relevance does this fact have to CS students of today? Do you think we could produce more Bill Gates' if we structured our CS courses differently? (Do we even want to do this?) > > > Computer Science Education: > Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? > Crosstalk, the Journal of Defense Software Engineering > http://www.stsc.hill.af.mil/CrossTalk/2008/01/0801DewarSchonberg.html > Dr. Robert B.K. Dewar, AdaCore Inc. > Dr. Edmond Schonberg, AdaCore Inc. OK I'll admit upfront I didn't quite make it to the end of this paper. I gave up at the sentence "Ada is the language of software engineering par excellence." THE language? Really? Frankly the paper makes some good points but many of them are irrelevant to the stated "trends" for which no real evidence is supplied. They seem to be partially relying on the fact that they can't seem to recruit Ada-literate developers anymore. The authors also succumb to the trendy practice of Java-bashing, but this time attacking it for its rich standard library, of all things. Lastly, the authors, who are admittedly "founders of a company that specializes in Ada programming tools", miss no opportunity to promote Ada as a teaching language. As such, this paper comes across as a marketing document, and a pretty unconvincing one at that. From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au Thu Jan 10 23:27:17 2008 From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:27:17 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? In-Reply-To: <47836311.20709@iimetro.com.au> References: <47836311.20709@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <20080110122717.GB21950@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> > http://www.stsc.hill.af.mil/CrossTalk/2008/01/0801DewarSchonberg.html This is just some Ada people pushing Ada. I consider the choice of programming language to be pretty much irrelevant at a fundamental level. That is, there are many reasons why one or another language might make more sense in teaching, but they're more peripheral. (For example, given that many students in introductory CS courses are biologists or physicists who will do no further programming courses, it makes sense to choose a language that's easy for them to write simple programs in later.) The issues with computer science courses that I see are: 1) a focus on specific technologies rather than underlying ideas, for example teaching TCP/IP specific material rather than more general ideas about networking (or, worse, teaching specific applications, resulting in "web design" graduates who know how to use Dreamweaver but nothing else). 2) avoiding anything that has any mathematics - resulting in students who don't understand even the idea of a formal algorithm, let alone proofs of correctness or complexity analyses But I don't think "computer science" is actually a coherent discipline in any real sense. Danny. --------------------------------------------------------- http://dannyreviews.com/ - over nine hundred book reviews http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog --------------------------------------------------------- From stephen at melbpc.org.au Fri Jan 11 01:32:47 2008 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen at melbpc.org.au) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:32:47 GMT Subject: [LINK] ACEC Annual Conference Message-ID: <20080110143247.2FDD517504@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> Australian Council for Computers in Education Annual Conference Canberra: 29th September - 2nd October * Extension of Time for Refereed Paper Abstracts * Abstracts for Refereed Papers are now due by January 14, 2008. Final papers are then due by February 29, 2008. Don't miss out! Be part of the Digital Education Revolution at ACEC'08. -- Dr Marg Lloyd forwards .. > From: Ian Webb [ian.webb at ozemail.com.au] > Sent: Wednesday, 9 January 2008 12:00 PM > Subject: ACEC'08 Update Dear Colleague Welcome to the new year. I hope you had a safe and happy holiday season. The conference committee is working hard to make ACEC'08 the most exciting and professionally rewarding conference yet. Apologies for any cross postings of this email. Keynote Speakers The conference organising committee are pleased to announce the following as keynote speakers. The third keynote will be notified in the near future. Keith Krueger Keith is CEO of the Consortium for School Networking (CoSN) , a national nonprofit organisation based in Washington DC that serves as the voice of K-12 technology leaders .. Liz Murphy Liz is an Australian based reporter, editor, producer and researcher http://researchandmedia.ning.com/profile/lmurphy. She works as a private consultant with a focus on global web-based communications producing live online global events, streaming real time audio, video and presentation material with presenters discussing topics/issues and interacting with audiences across the globe. As well Liz designs and produces media rich websites, sets up online radio stations and develops online exhibitions. Dates for Submission of Presentation Abstracts/Proposals Many thanks for those who have already submitted abstracts/proposals for presentations. A reminder of the submission timetable: January 14 - due date for the submission of refereed paper abstracts February 29 - due date for full papers (both refereed and non-refereed), - due date for proposals for workshops, panels and symposia March 31 - due date for poster session proposals Conference Registration Brochure The conference registration brochure will be available from the end of January. It will be posted on the website for downloading and emailed out to all who have registered interest in ACEC'08. For further information about ACEC'08 visit the conference website at or email: enquiries at acec2008.info Ian Webb On behalf of the ACEC'08 Organising Committee -- Cheers, ACEC Stephen Loosley Member, Victorian Institute of Teaching From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au Fri Jan 11 09:43:39 2008 From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:43:39 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: RE: Access Card site In-Reply-To: <6hhft4$iu9rg@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> References: <6hhft4$iu9rg@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <20080110224719.B41F9CA27@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com> At 10:07 AM 10/01/2008, Jan Whitaker wrote: >Do any linkers have advice on this situation? The Internet Archive offers copies of the access card web site from Nov 14, 2006 to Jul 04, 2007 . Unfortunately it does not seem to be responding at present. This issue of old government content being taken off-line came up on Link with the FTA web site and in the media . At present all you can do is hope there is a copy of the page in some third party archive, as you have to wait 30 years to get it from the official government one. >Is there a protocol for requesting that archived material be made >available without self-identification through a gatekeeper? There is an anomaly, as web sites fall down a crack between the procedures for archiving internal government documents and external publications. Under current policy, agencies are required to archive their web sites and pass them to the Archives office, who will make them available. But Archives do not make government documents available for 30 years. If you want a copy of an old page in the interim, you can ask the agency, but they may require a formal FOI request and charge you money. The National Library has copies of government paper publications, but they do not keep all web sites. The obvious solution would be for Archives, or the National Library (or both in collaboration), to provide an online archive of all public government web pages, but they are not funded to do that. The UK government did a deal with Archive.org to get around the problem. Of course NAA and/or NLA could put up the old pages with paid advertising to cover the cost. ;-) Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington at tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 http://www.tomw.net.au/ Adjunct Senior Lecturer, ANU From brd at iimetro.com.au Fri Jan 11 10:37:38 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:37:38 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? In-Reply-To: <47860809.3010703@internode.on.net> References: <47836311.20709@iimetro.com.au> <47860809.3010703@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <4786AC42.2030208@iimetro.com.au> Alastair Rankine wrote: > Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > >> >> As technology based systems become more complex, CS students seem to >> becoming less widely educated, are focussed on the internet and less >> able to understand the complexity of modern systems. > > > Bernard, just out of interest, how did you come upon this view? The > three criticisms you mention are quite subjective and difficult to > quantify. I work in a world of large scale, complex, enterprise systems used by organisations such as government departments, airlines, banks, insurance companies etc. Such environments are often divided up, somewhat arbitrarily, into a number of "disciplines". These include: Business System Analysis and Design Application Development Application Maintenance and Support Networks Operations Security Back-up Disaster Recovery Management Usually people who work full time in an enterprise that has all its own IT have quite a good idea of the overlap between, and requirements of, the different areas. Where problems arise is when "specialists" get involved. This happens when the technology and/or applications are outsourced, when external "consultants" are employed, when vendors propose "solutions" or when people within the enterprise but well outside the IT environment make "strategic" IT decisions. In this context CS and SE graduates are specialists who know a bit about the application development domain but not much about any of the others. I doubt that any new graduate of any discipline is capable of being responsible for the acquisition and implementation of a new system within this sort of environment and I would not expect them to. When I did my bachelor's degree in electronic engineering many years ago, it was exactly the same, however there seems to be a major difference in the coverage of subjects I studied. I was taught very little about "real" engineering as found in a large engineering enterprise. However I knew a lot about the fundamentals and the theory of engineering, physics and mathematics. When I learned about "real" engineering it was in the context of this understanding, most of which is still relevant today. I get the impression that graduates in the software industry (and I'm not picking on CS and or SE students here) know a lot about products, a few operating systems and languages but not much about the fundamentals and theory of computing and systems. Nor do they learn much about the realities of IT operations and production systems. The impact of this is that new graduates need a lot of training but, more importantly, do not understand the fundamentals. And those graduates who do not enter the IT profession and therefore go through the extra training but who become "consultants", sales people or managers do not realise just how ill trained they are. And they end up making bad decisions and, more importantly not knowing why they have made bad decisions. And of course I need to explicitly state that this is only my opinion, based upon my experience and only applies to the environment in which I work. However, In my defence I would point to the many large IT projects that end up as failures and suggest that there is more than a grain of truth in all this. -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From stil at stilgherrian.com Fri Jan 11 14:14:33 2008 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:14:33 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Why government internet filtering won =?iso-8859-1?q?=B9?= t work Message-ID: Crikey has just published my composite piece on the Internet filtering malarkey. Free to read even for non-subscribers. http://www.crikey.com.au/Politics/20080111-Why-government-internet-filtering -wont-work.html Enjoy! Stil -- Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/ Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia mobile +61 407 623 600 fax +61 2 9516 5630 ABN 25 231 641 421 From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Fri Jan 11 14:43:22 2008 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:43:22 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Ten things that will change the world? Message-ID: <7C2E50FF-E4CF-4AA9-B25D-5503A6B26690@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Tony phone : 02 6241 7659 mobile: 04 1242 0397 -- ~| mailto: tony at Tony-Barry.emu.id.au -- \@ or tony.barry at alianet.alia.org.au -- _\\/\% http://tony-barry.emu.id.au GT3 ____(*)__(*)___ Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Restore From brendansweb at optusnet.com.au Fri Jan 11 15:25:09 2008 From: brendansweb at optusnet.com.au (Brendan Scott) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:25:09 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Ten things that will change the world? In-Reply-To: <7C2E50FF-E4CF-4AA9-B25D-5503A6B26690@tony-barry.emu.id.au> References: <7C2E50FF-E4CF-4AA9-B25D-5503A6B26690@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Message-ID: <4786EFA5.7000709@optusnet.com.au> Antony Barry wrote: > Why is it that everything nowadays will change the world? From cas at taz.net.au Fri Jan 11 18:13:01 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:13:01 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Ten things that will change the world? In-Reply-To: <7C2E50FF-E4CF-4AA9-B25D-5503A6B26690@tony-barry.emu.id.au> References: <7C2E50FF-E4CF-4AA9-B25D-5503A6B26690@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Message-ID: <20080111071301.GA6828@taz.net.au> On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 02:43:22PM +1100, Antony Barry wrote: > the rest of the article's title is "(or at least the bank balance of those flogging these gimmicks)" craig -- craig sanders When arguments fail, use a blackjack. -- Edward "Spike" O'Donnell, Al Capone associate. From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Sat Jan 12 08:44:36 2008 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:44:36 +1100 Subject: [LINK] How NetAlert accentuated the negative Message-ID: How NetAlert accentuated the negative -------------- next part -------------- Research obtained under freedom of information laws raises questions about the accuracy of the Howard government?s pre-election advertising campaign on internet safety, writes PETER MARES on our partner website, Creative Economy More at phone : 02 6241 7659 mobile: 04 1242 0397 -- ~| mailto: tony at Tony-Barry.emu.id.au -- \@ or tony.barry at alianet.alia.org.au -- _\\/\% http://tony-barry.emu.id.au GT3 ____(*)__(*)___ Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Restore From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Sat Jan 12 10:02:27 2008 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:02:27 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Ten things that will change the world? In-Reply-To: <20080111071301.GA6828@taz.net.au> References: <7C2E50FF-E4CF-4AA9-B25D-5503A6B26690@tony-barry.emu.id.au> <20080111071301.GA6828@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <4787F583.1000505@ozemail.com.au> It seems that you're too cynical to fully appreciate the magical interface between the credulous and the crapulous! Ahh but what a list this was: unlaunched products, crap services, recycling of urban myth and "mob mind" pseudo-science (Quote: According to Pesce, the mob is "faster, smarter and stronger than you are" - which explains I suppose why the Cronulla rioters were right and I'm wrong. Not.), old technology dressed as new, and the relentless promotion of privacy invasion as a good thing. Oh, and OLPC: a guilt ointment for the rich, so that starving people can look for recipes on the Internet. Such lists always bring out the worst in me! RC Craig Sanders wrote: > On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 02:43:22PM +1100, Antony Barry wrote: > >> >> > > the rest of the article's title is "(or at least the bank balance of > those flogging these gimmicks)" > > craig > > From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Sat Jan 12 10:14:50 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:14:50 +1100 Subject: [LINK] How NetAlert accentuated the negative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6hhft4$k6qbe@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> At 08:44 AM 12/01/2008, Antony Barry wrote: >Research obtained under freedom of information laws raises questions >about the accuracy of the Howard government's pre-election >advertising campaign on internet safety, writes PETER MARES on our >partner website, Creative Economy [cc'd to Senator Conroy to support my earlier messages about the wrong-headedness of this latest filtering attempt] Lesson to new govt: use quotes from the research, preferably including the exact data as well, and do NOT spin the data to fit your agenda. You will be found out. from the full article: http://www.creative.org.au/webboard/results.chtml?filename_num=187479 [for some reason I couldn't get the link Tony posted to come up, even after allowing js to run on the apo page} [snip] The survey data provides only partial support for the NetAlert campaign warning that "playing online can lead to straying online" and the accompanying statistic that "almost half of 11 to 14 year old children said they had viewed websites their parents would find alarming." Again the survey questions were posed using a different form of words. Children and adolescents were asked whether they had accidentally viewed websites that "mum or dad (or a guardian) wouldn't want you to see?" While 43 per cent of respondents answered "yes" to this question there is no evidence how long they stayed on the site or whether they immediately closed out of it. Only 12 per cent said of survey respondents said that they had "deliberately" visited a site that "mum or dad wouldn't want you to go to." Burns says the overall picture that emerges from the Wallis Group research is far more positive than the messages of "danger, risk and fear" that characterised the NetAlert campaign. When asked what sort of things they do on the internet, for example, children and teenagers cited looking "for information for homework or study" ahead of all other activities, including playing games, chatting and messaging. The survey also revealed that well before the NetAlert campaign almost three quarters of parents had already talked to their children about "keeping safe online," which Dr Burns describes as "an amazingly positive finding." == I don't know if the previous govt release was being mischievous necessarily. Some people reword text in releases and reports for some reason of 'making it in their own words', not realising the meaning can change as a result. Wow, listen to me giving the benefit of the doubt! anyway, misleading they were. Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From rick at praxis.com.au Sat Jan 12 10:48:44 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:48:44 +1100 Subject: [LINK] How NetAlert accentuated the negative In-Reply-To: <6hhft4$k6qbe@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> References: <6hhft4$k6qbe@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <4788005C.3060506@praxis.com.au> Jan Whitaker wrote: > I don't know if the previous govt release was being mischievous > necessarily. Some people reword text in releases and reports for some > reason of 'making it in their own words', not realising the meaning can > change as a result. Wow, listen to me giving the benefit of the doubt! > anyway, misleading they were. You are giving the Howard regime way too much leeway here. They have a well documented history of buying into the politics of fear in an attempt to gain more and more power. NetAlert is but another example. A plea to Labor: ditch fear-based politics and get real. Otherwise, you will be found out. A plea to Conroy: ditch vote grabbing based on overblown threats and unrealisable solutions and use logic and reason to get your point to the people. What exactly is your point regarding net censorhsip? I use the Internet daily for work, education, communication and information. I do not want my online activities censored or monitored. And I vote. cheers rick -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services You got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda. -- George W Bush From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Sat Jan 12 13:52:09 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:52:09 +1100 Subject: [LINK] FTC Allows Google-DoubleClick Merger Without Conditions Message-ID: From EPIC Alert 15.01, 11 Jan 2008 http://www.epic.org/alert/EPIC_Alert_15.01.html ======================================================================== [4] Commission Allows Google-DoubleClick Merger Without Conditions ======================================================================== The Federal Trade Commission approved the proposed merger between Google and DoubleClick without conditions in a 4-1 opinion released on December 20. According to the FTC, the $3.1 billion proposed merger between the Internet's largest search profiling company and the Internet's largest targeted advertising company is "Unlikely to lessen competition." The decision granting the merger without conditions is surprising following the Second Request, which the Chairman previously said, is done in cases where the FTC believes "there is a strong possibility that some aspect of a transaction would violate the antitrust laws." In a detailed statement issued the same day, EPIC said that the unique circumstances of the online advertising industry required the FTC to impose privacy safeguards as a condition of the Google-DoubleClick merger. On April 20, 2007, EPIC, CDD, and US PIRG filed a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission, requesting that the Commission open an investigation into the proposed acquisition, specifically with regard to the ability of Google to record, analyze, track, and profile the activities of Internet users with data that is both personally identifiable and data that is not personally identifiable. The groups also urged the FTC to require Google to publicly present a plan to comply with well-established government and industry privacy standards, such as the OECD Privacy Guidelines. Pending the resolution of these and other issues, EPIC encouraged the FTC to halt the acquisition. The three groups filed a supplement to the complaint with the Commission in June and a second supplement in September. EPIC said that the Commission "had reason to act and authority to act, and failed to do so." EPIC pointed out that the Commission ignored similar assessments from leaders in Congress and consumer protection agencies. Commissioner Pamela Jones Harbour stated, "If the Commission closes its investigation at this time, without imposing any conditions on the merger, neither the competition nor the privacy interests of consumers will have been adequately addressed." Commissioner Jonathan Leibowitz, in a concurring opinion, warned that "industry participants must stop being coy and start being more forthcoming about their practices, the consumer information they collect, and how they use it" and recommended the adoption of opt-in for online services. EPIC said the FTC's decision "does not end the discussion about competition and privacy protection in the context of merger review. Consumers around the world will be impacted by the business practices of the combined entity, and the consequences will have to be addressed." Attention turns next to a hearing before the European Parliament on January 21. EPIC Executive Director Marc Rotenberg has been invited to testify. Federal Trade Commission, 4-1 Opinion Approving the Google-DoubleClick Proposed Merger (December 21, 2007) (pdf): http://www.ftc.gov/os/caselist/0710170/071220statement.pdf Commissioner Pamela Jones Harbour, Dissent from FTC Opinion Approving the Google-DoubleClick Proposed Merger (December 21, 2007) (pdf): http://www.ftc.gov/os/caselist/0710170/071220harbour.pdf Marc Rotenberg, EPIC, Statement in Response to FTC Opinion Approving the Google-DoubleClick Proposed Merger (December 21, 2007) (pdf): http://epic.org/privacy/ftc/google/EPIC_statement122007.pdf Senators Herb Kohl and Orrin Hatch, Chairman and Ranking Member of the Subcommittee on Antitrust, Competition Policy and Consumer Rights of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Letter urging FTC to give "serious scrutiny" to privacy and antitrust aspects of proposed Google-DoubleClick merger (November 19, 2007) (pdf): http://www.epic.org/privacy/ftc/google/sen_anti_111907.pdf European Commission Directorate on Competition, Press Release, Mergers: Commission opens in-depth investigation into Google's proposed take over of DoubleClick (November 13, 2007): http://www.epic.org/redirect/ec_release2.html EPIC's page on Privacy? Proposed Google/DoubleClick Deal: http://www.epic.org/privacy/ftc/google/ ======================================================================== -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Sat Jan 12 13:58:40 2008 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:58:40 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Strange auto response from Tony Abbott Message-ID: Linkers I've just received an emil which purports to be an auto response from an email I sent to Tony Abbott. I've never sent him an email. My first thought was that somebody was faking my address but now I wonder if it's something else. The email source looks unexceptional - > Return-Path: > X-Original-To: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au > Delivered-To: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au > Received: from roll.feedback3.com (mailserver.datasearch.com.au > [202.174.107.70]) > by tony-barry.emu.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBE4A213C02 > for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:48:02 +1100 > (EST) > To: > Precedence: bulk > Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:47:59 +1000 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > From: tony at tonyabbott.com.au > Subject: [AUTORESPONSE] - Automatic Mailbox Response > Reply-To: > Message-Id: <20080112004802.BBE4A213C02 at tony-barry.emu.id.au> > Status: > > Thank you for contacting Tony Abbott MHR. > > Please be aware that emails received without full contact details > may not receive further acknowledgement. If you have omitted to > include your name, residential address and telephone number, please > resend your email with these details. > > The Federal seat of Warringah (which Tony Abbott represents) > extends from Mosman Bay in the south to Dee Why in the north and > Garigal National Park in the west. > > You are invited to visit www.tonyabbott.com.au This site provides > general information, media releases, articles and speeches. More > detailed information on health and ageing can be obtained from > www.health.gov.au Additionally the Parliament of Australia website > provides information on processes of government www.aph.gov.au > > Again, thank you for contacting Tony Abbott. Parts of the site however seems to be frozen in time from before the elections containing the contact details - > > The Hon Tony Abbott MHR > Federal Member for Warringah > Minister for Health and Ageing > Leader of the House of Representatives > > If you live outside Warringah contact details can be obtained from > the following website: www.health.gov.au His APH page links to the site so I guess it's his site. Anybody shed any light on this? At a first guess I think the site hasn't been updated and stick to my original guess relating to the email. Tony phone : 02 6241 7659 mobile: 04 1242 0397 -- ~| mailto: tony at Tony-Barry.emu.id.au -- \@ or tony.barry at alianet.alia.org.au -- _\\/\% http://tony-barry.emu.id.au GT3 ____(*)__(*)___ Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Restore From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Sat Jan 12 14:11:57 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:11:57 +1100 Subject: [LINK] ePetitions, Oz Style? Message-ID: A report in The Canberra Times on Sat 12 Jan 08 says: There will be 17 House of Reps Committees in the new federal Parliament. Whether private members' business is permitted to be discussed by a Committee will be decided by the two chief whips. [Ah, the byways of parliamentary democracy.] "The new Petitions Committee, consisting of 10 members of Parliament (six Government and four Opposition members [so much for the Senate cross-benches]), will receive and consider petitions lodged and report on appropriate action", [Leader of the House] Mr Albanese said. [Boy, what a sinecure the chairmanship of *that* Committee will be! Now, who in the Reps missed out on position in the Ministry?] Of some interest to link, however: "The committee will also consider moving to electronic petitions, as the [British] Government has done", he said. http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/terms http://www.pm.gov.uk/output/Page11051.asp http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6354735.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6353353.stm http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2007/mar/08/epublic.egovernment http://itc.napier.ac.uk/ITC/researchThemes.asp?Theme=14&#ID14 -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From brd at iimetro.com.au Sat Jan 12 14:57:44 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:57:44 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Strange auto response from Tony Abbott In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47883AB8.5090107@iimetro.com.au> When he stopped being the minister for health and ageing, he probably lost the MoP(S) staffer who managed his web site. Maybe there's nobody left who knows how to maintain it. The site looks genuine enough, I live about 800 metres outside his electorate. I'm in Mackellor - I have Bronwyn Bishop to represent me. My guess is that a combination of Christmas and a change in government has left much of the Australian political internet out of whack with reality. Antony Barry wrote: > Linkers > > I've just received an emil which purports to be an auto response from > an email I sent to Tony Abbott. I've never sent him an email. My first > thought was that somebody was faking my address but now I wonder if > it's something else. > > The email source looks unexceptional - > >> Return-Path: >> X-Original-To: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au >> Delivered-To: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au >> Received: from roll.feedback3.com (mailserver.datasearch.com.au >> [202.174.107.70]) >> by tony-barry.emu.id.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBE4A213C02 >> for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:48:02 +1100 >> (EST) >> To: >> Precedence: bulk >> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:47:59 +1000 >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 >> From: tony at tonyabbott.com.au >> Subject: [AUTORESPONSE] - Automatic Mailbox Response >> Reply-To: >> Message-Id: <20080112004802.BBE4A213C02 at tony-barry.emu.id.au> >> Status: >> >> Thank you for contacting Tony Abbott MHR. >> >> Please be aware that emails received without full contact details may >> not receive further acknowledgement. If you have omitted to include >> your name, residential address and telephone number, please resend >> your email with these details. >> >> The Federal seat of Warringah (which Tony Abbott represents) extends >> from Mosman Bay in the south to Dee Why in the north and Garigal >> National Park in the west. >> >> You are invited to visit www.tonyabbott.com.au This site provides >> general information, media releases, articles and speeches. More >> detailed information on health and ageing can be obtained from >> www.health.gov.au Additionally the Parliament of Australia website >> provides information on processes of government www.aph.gov.au >> >> Again, thank you for contacting Tony Abbott. > > > > > Parts of the site however seems to be frozen in > time from before the elections containing the contact details - > >> >> The Hon Tony Abbott MHR >> Federal Member for Warringah >> Minister for Health and Ageing >> Leader of the House of Representatives >> >> If you live outside Warringah contact details can be obtained from >> the following website: www.health.gov.au > > > > His APH page > links to the site so I guess it's his site. > > Anybody shed any light on this? At a first guess I think the site > hasn't been updated and stick to my original guess relating to the email. > > Tony > > phone : 02 6241 7659 > mobile: 04 1242 0397 -- ~| > mailto: tony at Tony-Barry.emu.id.au -- \@ > or tony.barry at alianet.alia.org.au -- _\\/\% > http://tony-barry.emu.id.au GT3 ____(*)__(*)___ > Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Restore > > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link at mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From jwhit at janwhitaker.com Sat Jan 12 16:26:51 2008 From: jwhit at janwhitaker.com (Jan Whitaker) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 16:26:51 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Digital TV, live in the clouds, you may not see it Message-ID: <6hhft4$kahbi@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/digital-tv-could-see-viewers-left-in-the-dark/2008/01/11/1199988590074.html Digital TV could see viewers left in the dark Daniel Ziffer January 12, 2008 TELEVISIONS across Australia could go dead in two years as analog signals are switched off, with thousands of homes unable to pick up the new digital system. A study has found that many apartment buildings that dominate the inner suburbs are unable to receive digital signals as the December 2009 date looms when the Government wants to switch off the old analog system in cities. The world's tallest residential tower, the Q1 building on the Gold Coast, is just one complex where residents cannot receive digital television. The chief executive of commercial television industry body Free TV, Julie Flynn, said the problem was extensive, but not insurmountable. "Switch-over is going to be a complex task," she said. "There will be some places ? like the Gold Coast and the inner-city regions ? where it will be a significant issue." A pilot study on the Gold Coast for the government body Digital Broadcast Australia found a third of apartment buildings required an upgrade costing $10,000 to $20,000 to pick up the signal. The lengthy approval process with bodies corporate and a lack of appropriate technicians were also looming issues, the report said. "There is always the risk of additional demand not being met by the installation industry as the switch-over date draws closer," it said. Last month, Communications Minister Stephen Conroy said the switch-over would be completed by the end of 2013. "Until now, industry has had no declared end date and has been unable to plan effectively for digital television," he said in a statement. The Government also extended the starting date for digital-only transmission in metropolitan markets by a year. The planned December 2008 date "is clearly an impossible date for both viewers and industry", he said. "(We have) inherited a digital take-up rate of approximately 30% and will now work with industry to ensure that all Australians are prepared for digital television." Yesterday, Mr Conroy said the ability of people in multi-unit dwellings to pick up digital signals was a critical issue to be examined by a taskforce reporting to him. He said the December 2009 date for ending the metropolitan analog signal could be affected by the taskforce's report. The managing director of Loewe TV Australasia, Alex Encel, said the minister's words were "just another vague statement, just like the previous government". Mr Encel, who sells high-end digital TV sets, said broadcasters lacked the commercial benefit to justify the investment in digital. [JW: now that the stations are using the HD channels for more programming, the uptake may increase. The cost of HD boxes is also dropping. Aldi had a unit a couple weeks ago for $90] Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From brd at iimetro.com.au Sat Jan 12 16:35:29 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 16:35:29 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Contract signed for national health ID system Message-ID: <478851A1.2060000@iimetro.com.au> Contract signed for national health ID system ABC News http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/01/12/2137148.htm The Federal Government says a new national healthcare identifier service is one step closer, after a contract was signed to develop and test the scheme. The service is designed to improve the transfer of patient information between health providers. It will identify a person's name, date of birth, address and the names of their practitioners, and is the first step towards establishing a shared electronic health records system. The $51 billion contract between Medicare and the National E-Health Transition Authority will take around two years to implement. Federal Minister for Human Services, Joe Ludwig, says it is not an access card and people can decide whether or not they want to be part of the service. "Privacy is a great concern to Australians, particularly in relation to the collection and handling of personal health information. A new regulatory framework would be required," he said. "This system would be built over approximately two years or thereabouts and it has been developed in consultation with the Office of the Privacy Commissioner." Senator Ludwig says the program will potentially save lives. "One of the challenges out there is actually health care providers transferring information confidently to another health care provider so that they can provide services," he said. "At the moment, there is a range of electronic paper based systems and there is the potential for those things to get confused, or in fact lost in the system." -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From swilson at lockstep.com.au Sat Jan 12 17:24:49 2008 From: swilson at lockstep.com.au (Stephen Wilson) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:24:49 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Contract signed for national health ID system In-Reply-To: <478851A1.2060000@iimetro.com.au> References: <478851A1.2060000@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <47885D31.5010302@lockstep.com.au> Holy innumeracy! A "$51 billion contract" would match the annual expenditure of the entire Australian health sector. Reminds me of a story told by an astronomy lecturer. After telling the fate of our solar system, a student asked for clarification: "Excuse me, how long did you say till the Sun expires?". The lecturer repeated the figure, something like four billion years. To which the student responded, "Oh Phew! I thought you said MILLION years!". Cheers, Steve. Stephen Wilson Managing Director Lockstep Phone +61 (0)414 488 851 www.lockstep.com.au ------------------- * Lockstep Technologies: ICT Secrets of Innovation Finalist 2007 * Lockstep Technologies: Anthill / PwC Cool Company Finalist 2007 ------------------- Lockstep Consulting provides independent specialist advice and analysis on authentication, PKI and smartcards. Lockstep Technologies develops unique new smart ID solutions that safeguard identity and privacy. Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > Contract signed for national health ID system > ABC News > http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/01/12/2137148.htm > > The Federal Government says a new national healthcare identifier service > is one step closer, after a contract was signed to develop and test the > scheme. > > The service is designed to improve the transfer of patient information > between health providers. > > It will identify a person's name, date of birth, address and the names > of their practitioners, and is the first step towards establishing a > shared electronic health records system. > > The $51 billion contract between Medicare and the National E-Health > Transition Authority will take around two years to implement. > > Federal Minister for Human Services, Joe Ludwig, says it is not an > access card and people can decide whether or not they want to be part of > the service. > > "Privacy is a great concern to Australians, particularly in relation to > the collection and handling of personal health information. A new > regulatory framework would be required," he said. > > "This system would be built over approximately two years or thereabouts > and it has been developed in consultation with the Office of the Privacy > Commissioner." > > Senator Ludwig says the program will potentially save lives. > > "One of the challenges out there is actually health care providers > transferring information confidently to another health care provider so > that they can provide services," he said. > > "At the moment, there is a range of electronic paper based systems and > there is the potential for those things to get confused, or in fact lost > in the system." From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Sat Jan 12 17:25:01 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:25:01 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Technology that exposes your dirty linen In-Reply-To: <47885B4B.6070005@umd.com.au> References: <4781F28D.5080803@hunterlink.net.au> <20080109004003.96B1829901@heartbeat2.messagingengine.com> <478436DE.9040809@optusnet.com.au> <6hhft4$ifsai@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> <47885B4B.6070005@umd.com.au> Message-ID: <6hhft4$kb04v@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> At 05:16 PM 12/01/2008, Geoffrey Ramadan wrote: >Jan > >I don't understand the concern. > >The ARA privacy code states that Retailers must "provide details of >retention, use and security of the specific data", so if they do >Data Mine then they must advise the consumer. > >Also products are already barcode scanned, so the product is already >identified. This "issue" of "data mining" is not "enhanced" in >anyway because of RFID. > >Reg >Geoffrey Ramadan B.E.(Elec) >Chairman, Automatic Data Capture Association (www.adca.com.au) >and >Managing Director, Unique Micro Design (www.umd.com.au) The concern is what is stored and that it not be used for data mining. I was told in meetings during the deliberations that there was first a law, then it was described as a rule, then as a "guideline" that is between the retailers and the credit card companies to not go snooping and profiling. The level of compliance seemed to be more and more watered down the harder I pushed for substantiation of the claim. I am asking that the evidence be presented if it exists at all, even as a guideline. Providing details about how the [Oh, boy, I'm tempted to put a really seedy example here, but I'll refrain] thief is going to pick your pocket before he does it is not exactly comforting. Just because something is already barcode scanned, doesn't mean that privacy protection should not be extended, does it? Jan Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Sat Jan 12 18:55:29 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:55:29 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Contract signed for national health ID system In-Reply-To: <47885D31.5010302@lockstep.com.au> References: <478851A1.2060000@iimetro.com.au> <47885D31.5010302@lockstep.com.au> Message-ID: <6hhft4$kbj4t@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> Looks like someone else saw that problem. As of now, the text on the link is: It will identify a person's name, date of birth, address and the names of their practitioners, and is the first step towards establishing a shared electronic health records system. The contract between Medicare and the National E-Health Transition Authority will take around two years to implement. [note the missing numbers] At 05:24 PM 12/01/2008, Stephen Wilson wrote: >Holy innumeracy! > >A "$51 billion contract" would match the annual expenditure of the >entire Australian health sector. > >Reminds me of a story told by an astronomy lecturer. After telling >the fate of our solar system, a student asked for clarification: >"Excuse me, how long did you say till the Sun expires?". The >lecturer repeated the figure, something like four billion years. To >which the student responded, "Oh Phew! I thought you said MILLION years!". > >Cheers, > >Steve. > > >Stephen Wilson >Managing Director >Lockstep > >Phone +61 (0)414 488 851 > >www.lockstep.com.au >------------------- > * Lockstep Technologies: ICT Secrets of Innovation Finalist 2007 > * Lockstep Technologies: Anthill / PwC Cool Company Finalist 2007 >------------------- >Lockstep Consulting provides independent specialist advice and analysis >on authentication, PKI and smartcards. Lockstep Technologies develops >unique new smart ID solutions that safeguard identity and privacy. > > >Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: >>Contract signed for national health ID system >>ABC News >>http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/01/12/2137148.htm >>The Federal Government says a new national healthcare identifier >>service is one step closer, after a contract was signed to develop >>and test the scheme. >>The service is designed to improve the transfer of patient >>information between health providers. >>It will identify a person's name, date of birth, address and the >>names of their practitioners, and is the first step towards >>establishing a shared electronic health records system. >>The $51 billion contract between Medicare and the National E-Health >>Transition Authority will take around two years to implement. >>Federal Minister for Human Services, Joe Ludwig, says it is not an >>access card and people can decide whether or not they want to be >>part of the service. >>"Privacy is a great concern to Australians, particularly in >>relation to the collection and handling of personal health >>information. A new regulatory framework would be required," he said. >>"This system would be built over approximately two years or >>thereabouts and it has been developed in consultation with the >>Office of the Privacy Commissioner." >>Senator Ludwig says the program will potentially save lives. >>"One of the challenges out there is actually health care providers >>transferring information confidently to another health care >>provider so that they can provide services," he said. >>"At the moment, there is a range of electronic paper based systems >>and there is the potential for those things to get confused, or in >>fact lost in the system." > > >_______________________________________________ >Link mailing list >Link at mailman.anu.edu.au >http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From gramadan at umd.com.au Sat Jan 12 17:16:43 2008 From: gramadan at umd.com.au (Geoffrey Ramadan) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:16:43 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Technology that exposes your dirty linen In-Reply-To: <6hhft4$ifsai@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> References: <4781F28D.5080803@hunterlink.net.au> <20080109004003.96B1829901@heartbeat2.messagingengine.com> <478436DE.9040809@optusnet.com.au> <6hhft4$ifsai@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <47885B4B.6070005@umd.com.au> Jan Whitaker wrote: > At 01:52 PM 9/01/2008, Brendan Scott wrote: >> > Perhaps it has reached the point where the surveillance is so >> widespread >> > that there is not point trying to regulate it at source, and it is the >> > use to which the data is put which we need to concentrate on. >> >> Wouldn't it be likely that consumer RFID detectors/destroyers would >> be manufactured over time? > > I served on the privacy code for retail RFID use last year and before. > I've been waiting for nearly 12 MONTHS for the president of the > Australian Retailers Association, Michael Lonie, to send me the > documentation that requires that data collected at point of purchase > may not be data mined. He has yet to provide that information. I've > refrained from making this public until now, but this point about > extended uses and how the consumer might protect themselves provides a > relevancy to share that information. > > I've copied him and other key members of the panel on this message, > perhaps to shame him into meeting his on-going, yet unfulfilled, > commitment to show me, in writing, as was said my him multiple times > exists. I've been told there is a law, a rule, and the last a > 'guideline'. I am yet to see any of that, even the unenforceable > guideline. > > Time to put up or strengthen the code, Michael. The cat is out of the > bag. > > The recently approved code that is under the management of that same > Australian Retailers Association can be found at: > http://www.ara.com.au/765.html > > > Jan > consumer volunteer representing CHOICE on the panel Jan I don't understand the concern. The ARA privacy code states that Retailers must "provide details of retention, use and security of the specific data", so if they do Data Mine then they must advise the consumer. Also products are already barcode scanned, so the product is already identified. This "issue" of "data mining" is not "enhanced" in anyway because of RFID. Reg Geoffrey Ramadan B.E.(Elec) Chairman, Automatic Data Capture Association (www.adca.com.au) and Managing Director, Unique Micro Design (www.umd.com.au) From stephen at melbpc.org.au Thu Jan 10 18:50:01 2008 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen at melbpc.org.au) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:50:01 GMT Subject: [LINK] ACEC Annual Conference Message-ID: <20080110075001.313EB17507@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> Australian Council for Computers in Education Annual Conference (ACEC08) Canberra: 29th September - 2nd October * Extension of Time for Refereed Paper Abstracts * Abstracts for Refereed Papers are now due by January 14, 2008. Final papers are then due by February 29, 2008. Don't miss out! Be part of the Digital Education Revolution at ACEC'08. -- Marg forwards .. > From: Ian Webb [ian.webb at ozemail.com.au] > Sent: Wednesday, 9 January 2008 12:00 PM > Subject: ACEC'08 Update Dear Colleague Welcome to the new year. I hope you had a safe and happy holiday season. The conference committee is working hard to make ACEC'08 the most exciting and professionally rewarding conference yet. Apologies for any cross postings of this email. Keynote Speakers The conference organising committee are pleased to announce the following as keynote speakers. The third keynote will be notified in the near future. Keith Krueger Keith is CEO of the Consortium for School Networking (CoSN-www.cosn.org), a national nonprofit organisation based in Washington DC that serves as the voice of K-12 technology leaders .. Liz Murphy Liz is an Australian based reporter, editor, producer and researcher http://researchandmedia.ning.com/profile/lmurphy. She works as a private consultant with a focus on global web-based communications producing live online global events, streaming real time audio, video and presentation material with presenters discussing topics/issues and interacting with audiences across the globe. As well Liz designs and produces media rich websites, sets up online radio stations and develops online exhibitions. Dates for Submission of Presentation Abstracts/Proposals Many thanks for those who have already submitted abstracts/proposals for presentations. A reminder of the submission timetable: January 14 - due date for the submission of refereed paper abstracts February 29 - due date for full papers (both refereed and non-refereed), due date for proposals for workshops, panels and symposia March 31 - due date for poster session proposals Conference Registration Brochure The conference registration brochure will be available from the end of January. It will be posted on the website for downloading and emailed out to all who have registered interest in ACEC'08. For further information about ACEC'08 visit the conference website at or email: enquiries at acec2008.info Ian Webb On behalf of the ACEC'08 Organising Committee -- Cheers ACEC 08 Stephen Loosley Member, Victorian Institute of Teaching From sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au Sun Jan 13 09:08:41 2008 From: sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au (steve jenkin) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 09:08:41 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? In-Reply-To: <4786AC42.2030208@iimetro.com.au> References: <47836311.20709@iimetro.com.au> <47860809.3010703@internode.on.net> <4786AC42.2030208@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <47893A69.2050208@canb.auug.org.au> Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote on 11/1/08 10:37 AM: > > I work in a world of large scale, complex, enterprise systems used by > organisations such as government departments, airlines, banks, > insurance companies etc. > > Such environments are often divided up, somewhat arbitrarily, into a > number of "disciplines". These include: > > Business System Analysis and Design > Application Development > Application Maintenance and Support > Networks > Operations > Security > Back-up > Disaster Recovery > Management This discussion is a vignette of what's missing in I.T. The professional basics are missing and they aren't being addressed. After 50-60 years of commercial computing I.T. lacks: - a taxonomy of disciplines, roles and job. - any way to rate the on-going competence of practitioners - any way to rate the 'degree of difficulty' of tasks - ways to describe complexity, scale, entropy of systems - ways to assess & track practitioner output & work quality - global reporting of projects statistics Most importantly, I.T. fails this part of a definition of a Profession: Known errors can't be repeated without consequence. We, as a profession, can't answer the most important and basic questions for our customers: - can this person *do* this piece of work - what is a reasonable amount of time to finish the task - what are the quality measures for the task and are the achievable Illustrations: - How good are Danny, Roger, Tom, Bernard & Alastair at their jobs? - Just *what* are their roles and areas of expertise? - How do their professional competencies differ? - How would you choose between them for a role? In Aviation, these questions are all answered. Pilots choose who can be pilots. Pilots are uniformly tested and rated, frequently. There are professional consequences for poor performance. Choosing who gets to fly in what role & be responsible for lives is taken very seriously. And errors, incidents & failures are reported & carefully examined - even when not life threatening. People who hire in Aviation have confidence the system will deliver them competent, safe professionals. Recent graduates don't get to drive $200M aircraft. Practice, training and testing are a given and constant. > > > However, In my defence I would point to the many large IT projects > that end up as failures and suggest that there is more than a grain of > truth in all this. > Even what you'd think was trivial - reporting minimal outcome data on hundreds of $-billions spent on IT projects - is not only completely missing, its necessity & importance seems to escape the regulators, educators and professional bodies. While entertaining, this thread is most interesting from what is missing in the discussion. There is no basis for objective discussion, only "he said, she said" back and forth. There aren't any reliable history or records [Gates *did* learn BASIC as a first language at the school terminal] There isn't even an good understanding of the broadest of terms: Software Engineering and Computer Science. As for Java/ADA vs anything: Show us the numbers/proof if you dispute the claims in the article. Don't make more assertions. -- Steve Jenkin, Info Tech, Systems and Design Specialist. 0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915) PO Box 48, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au http://members.tip.net.au/~sjenkin From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au Sun Jan 13 09:46:30 2008 From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 09:46:30 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? In-Reply-To: <47893A69.2050208@canb.auug.org.au> References: <47836311.20709@iimetro.com.au> <47860809.3010703@internode.on.net> <4786AC42.2030208@iimetro.com.au> <47893A69.2050208@canb.auug.org.au> Message-ID: <20080112224630.GA3001@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> steve jenkin wrote: > As for Java/ADA vs anything: > Show us the numbers/proof if you dispute the claims in the > article. > Don't make more assertions. About which I wrote: | This is just some Ada people pushing Ada. The fact that the authors are "Ada people" seems uncontrovertible, since their affiliation is given as a company called "AdaCore". It's hard to argue with their claims that there's something special about Ada, since they provide no evidence for them at all. They simply assert | "Ada is the language of software engineering par excellence. | Even when it is not the language of instruction in programming | courses, it is the language chosen to teach courses in | software engineering." The second sentence here is manifestly false, since there are many, many software engineering courses which use languages other than Ada. As for the complaints about Java, they seem to me to be complaints about how it is taught rather than anything language specific. You can overemphasize graphical interfaces and the use of toolkit libraries with any language. Danny. --------------------------------------------------------- http://dannyreviews.com/ - over nine hundred book reviews http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog --------------------------------------------------------- From stil at stilgherrian.com Sun Jan 13 10:14:27 2008 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 10:14:27 +1100 Subject: [LINK] FTC Allows Google-DoubleClick Merger Without Conditions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/1/08 1:52 PM, "Roger Clarke" wrote: > The Federal Trade Commission approved the proposed merger between Google > and DoubleClick without conditions [snip] Not quite the creation of the Googlezon as predicted in the short film "Epic 2014" (no relation), but hey there's still time. The original "Epic 2014" and the updated "Epic 2015" are available at http://epic.makingithappen.co.uk/ ... enjoy! Stil -- Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/ Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia mobile +61 407 623 600 fax +61 2 9516 5630 ABN 25 231 641 421 From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Sun Jan 13 10:36:40 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 10:36:40 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Clth Dept Archival Message-ID: We hand out the brickbats often enough. Here's a bouquet. DCITA is now DBCDE (or BCDE, or BroCaDE, or something). The new Government's approach will differ significantly from the previous Government's, some of it spin, but some of it definitely substance. I went looking for a particular document published under the old regime, and found it (quickly) here: http://archive.dcita.gov.au/2007/12/broadband_blueprint The home-page explains: http://archive.dcita.gov.au/ I wonder if there's an AGIMO or NAA or NLA guidance note that the DCITA archival approach is compliant with. If not, maybe we should write one! [Aside: This further implies that government domain-name management principles need to include recognition of the importance of defunct names. In some cases that's tricky, e.g. DEWR was not that long ago Employment and Workplace Relations, but is now Environment and Water Resources.] [Declaration (because this posting could easily sound like buttering-up): I've had quite a few dealings with this part of DCITA/BCDE over the years; but they haven't been a client for quite some time, and I'm not currently making any plays for work there.] -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From lucychili at gmail.com Sun Jan 13 12:33:29 2008 From: lucychili at gmail.com (Janet Hawtin) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:03:29 +1030 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? In-Reply-To: <20080112224630.GA3001@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> References: <47836311.20709@iimetro.com.au> <47860809.3010703@internode.on.net> <4786AC42.2030208@iimetro.com.au> <47893A69.2050208@canb.auug.org.au> <20080112224630.GA3001@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: It might be that the engineers of tomorrow are living in: - houses which are less likely to have a backyard and a shed for applied inquisitiveness - an education system which uses insurance/risk as a scoping metric for what is possible - an education system which is optimised for measurable en masse results - an education system which has little time, resources, funding, support staff for non standard teachers or students - an education system which is sorted by age - a society/economy which frequently purchases technology solutions which have restrictions on inspection or modification - a society/economy which values control of existing inventions over access to participation for new inventors - a society/economy which retail space would be far more extensive and accessible than public community spaces workshops - a society/economy/education where technology is described in terms of being a choice of (suites of) products rather than as an underlying question of people, information, power, substance. It feels like we are optimised as a culture of consumers. This configuration ensures that there is a maximum opportunity for us to spend into the global economy, but there are spatial, legal, logistical, social, assumptions built in which increase barriers to participation. What kinds of space, time, constructive risk, legal opportunity to participate, cross generational collaboration, mess, mistakes and questions would provide a stronger habitat for Australian invention and make culture? Where are the software engineers of tomorrow? Perhaps shopping for clues? What other ways to find/make clues are there? Janet From avi.miller at squiz.net Sun Jan 13 12:34:47 2008 From: avi.miller at squiz.net (Avi Miller) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:34:47 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Clth Dept Archival In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 13/01/2008, at 10:36 AM, Roger Clarke wrote: > I wonder if there's an AGIMO or NAA or NLA guidance note that the > DCITA archival approach is compliant with. If not, maybe we should > write one! While you're handing things out, another reminder that DCITA were one of the first federal agencies to shift to an Open Source web presence. They've been running MySource Matrix on Apache/PHP/PostgreSQL for at least two years now. cYa, Avi -- MySource Matrix Product Evangelist < Sydney / Melbourne / Canberra / Hobart / London /> 2/340 Gore Street T: +61 (0) 3 9235 5400 Fitzroy, VIC F: +61 (0) 3 9235 5444 3202 W: http://www.squiz.net/ .....>> Open Source - Own it - Squiz.net ...../> From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au Sun Jan 13 13:02:56 2008 From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 13:02:56 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? In-Reply-To: <47893A69.2050208@canb.auug.org.au> References: <47836311.20709@iimetro.com.au> <47860809.3010703@internode.on.net> <4786AC42.2030208@iimetro.com.au> <47893A69.2050208@canb.auug.org.au> Message-ID: <20080113020256.GA31047@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> Steve Jenkin writes: > After 50-60 years of commercial computing I.T. lacks: > - a taxonomy of disciplines, roles and job. > - any way to rate the on-going competence of practitioners > - any way to rate the 'degree of difficulty' of tasks > - ways to describe complexity, scale, entropy of systems > - ways to assess & track practitioner output & work quality > - global reporting of projects statistics All of this is true about plumbing and plumbers, or about teaching and teachers, and probably about most professions. I suspect that airline pilots are an extreme case here here. Danny. --------------------------------------------------------- http://dannyreviews.com/ - over nine hundred book reviews http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog --------------------------------------------------------- From grove at zeta.org.au Sun Jan 13 14:05:21 2008 From: grove at zeta.org.au (grove at zeta.org.au) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:05:21 +1100 (EST) Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? In-Reply-To: References: <47836311.20709@iimetro.com.au> <47860809.3010703@internode.on.net> <4786AC42.2030208@iimetro.com.au> <47893A69.2050208@canb.auug.org.au> <20080112224630.GA3001@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Jan 2008, Janet Hawtin wrote: > It feels like we are optimised as a culture of consumers. I think you're right. And things like DMCA do not help. The "hacker mentality" is now readily equated with terrorism. Chemistry sets are now sold so as to be practically inoccuous as possible. Hacking a modern car engine is not the same due to use of sealed electronic modules and most of it being "on a chip". Why bother building it when you can get a ready made Shenzen special from Bunnings or whereever? Everything is slowly being reduced to a commodity. And if it doesn't support some sort of "standard" then it is not allowed to be marketed or is strictly regulated. I see Dick Smith shops as a good example of this. They used to be full of electronic bits and you put most of your things together as a hobby, which might later lead to a skill set that took you into a trade or career. Now it's a shop full of USB coffee warmers with the electronic bits a stub of it's former glory. The skills are now only out there in a few die hard 20 year olds who are sill enough to have a crazy hobby and the rest resides in people who are now over 40 and gradually retiring. Let's look at a 17 minute movie that sort of sums it up for me - who can honestly say they know someone who has at least 2 of the skills shown, let alone the whole set: http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/01/make_your_own_vaccum_tube.html rachel -- Rachel Polanskis Kingswood, Greater Western Sydney, Australia grove at zeta.org.au http://www.zeta.org.au/~grove/grove.html The price of greatness is responsibility. From swilson at lockstep.com.au Sun Jan 13 14:19:15 2008 From: swilson at lockstep.com.au (Stephen Wilson) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:19:15 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? In-Reply-To: <47860809.3010703@internode.on.net> References: <47836311.20709@iimetro.com.au> <47860809.3010703@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <47898333.1070106@lockstep.com.au> I'm an ex software guy.* The software-engineering-as-a-profession debate is decades old. I find it fascinating that the debate continues almost completely untouched by each generation's innovations in production: high level languages, object orientation etc. Most of us in the 90s thought that re-use and enforced modularity would introduce to software some of the hallmarks of real engineering -- predictability, repeatability, measurability etc. Yet it seems that many of the human traits of software-as-a-craft remain with us. Moreover, I suspect that a deep problem is that the stuff of software is so very different from the stuff of other professions (soil, metals, electronics, flesh and blood, people, planes ...) that we might underestimate the challenge of forging a software profession. Two years ago I wrote a letter to Computer World about these matters, in response to a consultants' report at the time that IT projects (hence software development) needed a more corporate governance. Yup, like a hole in the head. The original letter follows (it was published with a light edit). ------------------------------ Yes indeed, IT is made the scapegoat for a great many project disasters (ComputerWorld 28 September 2005, page 1). But it may prove fruitless to force orthodox project management and corporate governance methodologies onto big IT projects. And at the same time, IT "professionals" are not entirely free of blame. So the KPMG Global IT Project Management Survey found that the vast majority of technology projects run over budget. In the main, "technology" means software, whether we build or buy. The "software crisis" ? the systemic inability to estimate software projects accurately and to deliver what's promised ? is about 40 years old. And it's more subtle than KPMG suggests in blaming corporate governance. It is fashionable at the moment to look to governance to rectify business problems but in this case, it really is a technology issue. Software project management truly is different from all other technical fields, for software does not obey the laws of nature. Building skyscrapers, tunnels, dams and bridges is relatively predictable. You start with site surveys and foundations, erect a sturdy framework, fill in the services, fit it out, and take away the scaffolding. Specifications don?t change much over a several year project, and the tools don't change at all. But with software, you can start a big project anywhere you like, and before the spec is signed off. Metaphorically speaking, the plumbing can go in before the framework. Hell, you don't even need a framework! Nothing physical holds a software system up. And software coding is fast and furious. In a single day, a programmer can create a system more complex than an airport that might take 10,000 person-years to build. So software development is fun. Let's be honest: it's why the majority of programmers chose their craft in the first place. Ironically it's the rapidity of programming that contributes the most to project overruns. We only use software in information systems because it's fast to write and easy to modify. So the temptation is irresistible to keep specs fluid and to change requirements at any time. Famously, the differences between prototype, "beta release" and product are marginal and arbitrary. Management and marketing take advantage of this fact, and unfortunately software engineers themselves yield too readily to the attraction of the last minute tweak. The same dynamics of course afflict third party software components. They tend to change too often and fail to meet expectations, making life hell for IT systems integrators. It won't be until software engineering develops the tools, standards and culture of a true profession that any of this will change. Then corporate governance will have something to govern in big technology projects. Meanwhile, programmers will remain more like playwrights than engineers, and just as manageable. ------------------------------ Cheers, Steve Wilson. * FOOTNOTE Before getting into PKI, I spent seven years developing and managing real time control software for implantable defibrillators -- technically very demanding, and obviously mission critical. We wrote our own multi-tasking operating system (easier to validate), wrote our own C compiler (so we could test it too), used a formal specification language (Z), formal design reviews and independent test teams, and undertook a line-by-line code inspection of the entire system (40,000 lines; the code inspection took six people two months). It was interesting and effective blend of modern tools, quality processes, individual skills, and brute force. Our demonstrated bug rate was less than one per 10,000 lines, by far the best in the world of real time software circa 1990. Lockstep www.lockstep.com.au ------------------- * Lockstep Technologies: ICT Secrets of Innovation Finalist 2007 * Lockstep Technologies: Anthill / PwC Cool Company Finalist 2007 ------------------- Lockstep Consulting provides independent specialist advice and analysis on authentication, PKI and smartcards. Lockstep Technologies develops unique new smart ID solutions that safeguard identity and privacy. From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Sun Jan 13 14:15:58 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:15:58 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? In-Reply-To: References: <47836311.20709@iimetro.com.au> <47860809.3010703@internode.on.net> <4786AC42.2030208@iimetro.com.au> <47893A69.2050208@canb.auug.org.au> <20080112224630.GA3001@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <6hhft4$klpmf@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> At 12:33 PM 13/01/2008, Janet Hawtin wrote: >What kinds of space, time, constructive risk, legal opportunity to >participate, cross generational collaboration, mess, mistakes and >questions would provide a stronger habitat for Australian invention >and make culture? > >Where are the software engineers of tomorrow? Perhaps shopping for clues? >What other ways to find/make clues are there? I think you've hit on something here, Janet. Risk aversion [cotton wool upbringing, stranger danger, anti-septic everything], focus on near-perfect quality as the only acceptable outcome, and probably a few other 'value' changes, don't exactly make for experimentation. We live in a time of 'make a buck' pragmatism, at least it has been. People aren't expected to play, with ideas or tools or much of anything any more [your point about lack of sheds]. Australia, and at one time America as well, was a frontier country. Necessity was the mother of invention. Risk wasn't a choice. You risked or you died trying. Nowadays, there is this attitude that you go buy your solutions off the shelf at Bunnings or from your friendly outsourcer, throw away and buy a new widget if it doesn't work any more [cheaper solution that repair], and keep up to date with the Joneses even more quickly than in the past. Keeps the economy ticking over doncha know. Must keep buying. The productivity line we got in the last election was much about capacity building. But I'm not sure we have the pervasive value in the culture any more to do that. Where is the necessity bit again? How is that identified or created? how does the spark get lit? I know that's a long way from the issue of software engineers, but I think that specific area may just be a symptom of a much larger problem. Of course, I may be saying the same things others did 30 or 40 years ago. Jan Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au Sun Jan 13 14:37:04 2008 From: sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au (steve jenkin) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:37:04 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? In-Reply-To: <4789871B.6030308@canb.auug.org.au> References: <47836311.20709@iimetro.com.au> <47860809.3010703@internode.on.net> <4786AC42.2030208@iimetro.com.au> <47893A69.2050208@canb.auug.org.au> <20080112224630.GA3001@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> <4789871B.6030308@canb.auug.org.au> Message-ID: <47898760.6030009@canb.auug.org.au> > Danny Yee wrote on 13/1/08 9:46 AM: > > Danny, thanks for a good, insightful response. Don't not agree with > anything you've written. > >> It's hard to argue with their claims that there's something special >> about Ada, since they provide no evidence for them at all. They simply >> assert .... >> >> >> As for the complaints about Java, ... >> >> Danny. >> --------------------------------------------------------- >> http://dannyreviews.com/ - over nine hundred book reviews >> http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog >> --------------------------------------------------------- >> >> > But this is exactly my point, there is *no* proof! > > After 50-60 years of commercial computing, "IT" is still nowhere near a > 'Profession' because it doesn't collect even the simplest of information > about its paid, professional activities. > > Which is better - a diesel or a petrol engine? > > It all depends on the scale, the application, the context and the > application design. > But if there is no objective data, it all comes down to assertion. > > What I do know, but can only prove by anecdote, is that some, not all, > experienced practitioners have conducted their own experiments over > years and can accurately predict what works and what won't. > > Applying the CMM model to the IT 'Profession' as a whole, it comes out > as a 'Level 0' - doesn't even know the organisation is involved in the work. > > -- Steve Jenkin, Info Tech, Systems and Design Specialist. 0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915) PO Box 48, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au http://members.tip.net.au/~sjenkin From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Sun Jan 13 14:53:31 2008 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:53:31 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? In-Reply-To: References: <47836311.20709@iimetro.com.au> <47860809.3010703@internode.on.net> <4786AC42.2030208@iimetro.com.au> <47893A69.2050208@canb.auug.org.au> <20080112224630.GA3001@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <7188CC68-FD63-4CA1-A3E8-530B82E1AC07@tony-barry.emu.id.au> On 13/01/2008, at 2:05 PM, grove at zeta.org.au wrote: > Let's look at a 17 minute movie that sort of sums it up for me - > who can honestly say they know someone who has at least 2 of the > skills > shown, let alone the whole set: > > http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/01/ > make_your_own_vaccum_tube.html C'mon, As a kid I used to fix vacuum tube radios and later I used to work in a physics lab and design and build some of my own gear but even in the fifties nobody made their own triodes! There was too much cheap exWWII stuff on the market ;^) I think it's a skill you might need now though... Tony phone : 02 6241 7659 mobile: 04 1242 0397 -- ~| mailto: tony at Tony-Barry.emu.id.au -- \@ or tony.barry at alianet.alia.org.au -- _\\/\% http://tony-barry.emu.id.au GT3 ____(*)__(*)___ Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Restore From sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au Sun Jan 13 15:26:28 2008 From: sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au (steve jenkin) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 15:26:28 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? In-Reply-To: <20080113020256.GA31047@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> References: <47836311.20709@iimetro.com.au> <47860809.3010703@internode.on.net> <4786AC42.2030208@iimetro.com.au> <47893A69.2050208@canb.auug.org.au> <20080113020256.GA31047@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <478992F4.5020004@canb.auug.org.au> Danny Yee wrote on 13/1/08 1:02 PM: > All of this is true about plumbing and plumbers, or about teaching > and teachers, and probably about most professions. I suspect that > airline pilots are an extreme case here here. > > Danny. > --------------------------------------------------------- > http://dannyreviews.com/ - over nine hundred book reviews > http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog > --------------------------------------------------------- > There are very few industries, plumbers included, that can actually give you any information on "the State of Practice". Even surgery, the branch of medicine where all activity & their outcomes are recorded, doesn't consolidate and mine the information available. It doesn't systematically assess practitioners nor report on its "State of Practice". See todays' "Background Briefing" by the author of "Complications - A Surgeon's notes on an imperfect science", Atul Gawande. His research has identified 3 factors necessary in providing great outcomes: - Diligence, Surveillance (metrics) and Ingenuity. Aviation appears to be an extreme (thanks - well spotted). Since WWII it has evolved systems to track and improve all its important metrics. The large bomber/fighter/transport fleets of WWII created the need for comprehensive Change & Release Management, as well as Reliability Engineering. Aviation is by far and away the best example about what can be achieved within an entire industry across multiple Professions. Since WWII Safety has improved, as has Flight Performance and Financial Performance. Catching a commercial flight is now routine and boring - but only because of an industry-wide culture of learning and improvement. This is provable by demonstration: - The safety of General Aviation has barely improved over the last 30-40 years. Private pilots don't embrace the culture. - Not all countries have the same high standards, but buy the same equipment. Viz: Indonesia Yes, Aviation is an *extreme* example. But shouldn't it be a example we, the IT industry, should aspire to? Isn't IT just as, or more, important to the global economy than Aviation? -- Steve Jenkin, Info Tech, Systems and Design Specialist. 0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915) PO Box 48, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au http://members.tip.net.au/~sjenkin From brd at iimetro.com.au Sun Jan 13 16:49:40 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 16:49:40 +1100 Subject: [LINK] The 2007 Darwin Awards Message-ID: <4789A674.5030104@iimetro.com.au> http://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2007.html -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From swilson at lockstep.com.au Sun Jan 13 17:06:59 2008 From: swilson at lockstep.com.au (Stephen Wilson) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 17:06:59 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? In-Reply-To: <478992F4.5020004@canb.auug.org.au> References: <47836311.20709@iimetro.com.au> <47860809.3010703@internode.on.net> <4786AC42.2030208@iimetro.com.au> <47893A69.2050208@canb.auug.org.au> <20080113020256.GA31047@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> <478992F4.5020004@canb.auug.org.au> Message-ID: <4789AA83.80707@lockstep.com.au> steve jenkin wrote: > shouldn't [aviation] be a example we, the IT industry, should aspire to? > Isn't IT just as, or more, important to the global economy than Aviation? Aviation is also one of the most heavily regulated industries on earth. I remember a year or two when the ACS proposed enhancing the professionalism of the IT sector. The suggestions floated included an continuing education and a code of conduct. Pretty innocuous stuff, and way, way short of regulation. But the outcry from the grassroots IT community was virulent. There were many voices raised in opposition, and I don't recall if there was a dominant theme, but many people simply resented any imposition on the way they do their jobs [read, practise their craft]. So I don't like the chances of the IT sector at large embracing all that goes with industries like aviation. Cheers, Steve Wilson. Lockstep www.lockstep.com.au ------------------- * Lockstep Technologies: ICT Secrets of Innovation Finalist 2007 * Lockstep Technologies: Anthill / PwC Cool Company Finalist 2007 ------------------- Lockstep Consulting provides independent specialist advice and analysis on authentication, PKI and smartcards. Lockstep Technologies develops unique new smart ID solutions that safeguard identity and privacy. From dassa at dhs.org Sun Jan 13 17:26:40 2008 From: dassa at dhs.org (Darryl (Dassa) Lynch) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 17:26:40 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? In-Reply-To: <4789AA83.80707@lockstep.com.au> Message-ID: <200801130626.m0D6QgDc032727@relay01.ispone.net.au> link-bounces at anumail0.anu.edu.au wrote: || steve jenkin wrote: || ||| shouldn't [aviation] be a example we, the IT industry, should ||| aspire to? Isn't IT just as, or more, important to the global ||| economy than Aviation? || || Aviation is also one of the most heavily regulated || industries on earth. || || I remember a year or two when the ACS proposed enhancing the || professionalism of the IT sector. The suggestions floated || included an continuing education and a code of conduct. || Pretty innocuous stuff, and way, way short of regulation. || But the outcry from the grassroots IT community was || virulent. There were many voices raised in opposition, and || I don't recall if there was a dominant theme, but many || people simply resented any imposition on the way they do || their jobs [read, practise their craft]. || || So I don't like the chances of the IT sector at large || embracing all that goes with industries like aviation. Some sectors of the IT industry have moved to a more professional stance. The System Administrators Guild of Australia has joined Professions Australia, http://www.professions.com.au/. Sage-Au abides by a code of conduct. SAGE-AU joins Professions Australia We're pleased to announce that SAGE-AU has been accepted for membership of Professions Australia. Professions Australia is a national organisation of professional associations. It advances and promotes professionalism for the benefit of the community. It does this by: * Complimenting and supporting its member associations * Communicating the benefits of professionalism and ethical practices * Providing the means for sharing information, ideas and experience among the professions * Developing and promoting policies on issues of interest to the professions * Providing government with reliable and objective advice on relevant issues * Supporting member associations in the promotion of professionalism. Darryl (Dassa) Lynch From gramadan at umd.com.au Sun Jan 13 18:16:47 2008 From: gramadan at umd.com.au (Geoffrey Ramadan) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 18:16:47 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Technology that exposes your dirty linen In-Reply-To: <6hhft4$kb04v@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> References: <4781F28D.5080803@hunterlink.net.au> <20080109004003.96B1829901@heartbeat2.messagingengine.com> <478436DE.9040809@optusnet.com.au> <6hhft4$ifsai@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> <47885B4B.6070005@umd.com.au> <6hhft4$kb04v@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <4789BADF.3030003@umd.com.au> Jan Whitaker wrote: > At 05:16 PM 12/01/2008, Geoffrey Ramadan wrote: >> Jan >> >> I don't understand the concern. >> >> The ARA privacy code states that Retailers must "provide details of >> retention, use and security of the specific data", so if they do Data >> Mine then they must advise the consumer. >> >> Also products are already barcode scanned, so the product is already >> identified. This "issue" of "data mining" is not "enhanced" in anyway >> because of RFID. >> >> Reg >> Geoffrey Ramadan B.E.(Elec) >> Chairman, Automatic Data Capture Association (www.adca.com.au) >> and >> Managing Director, Unique Micro Design (www.umd.com.au) > > The concern is what is stored and that it not be used for data mining. > I was told in meetings during the deliberations that there was first a > law, then it was described as a rule, then as a "guideline" that is > between the retailers and the credit card companies to not go snooping > and profiling. The level of compliance seemed to be more and more > watered down the harder I pushed for substantiation of the claim. > > I am asking that the evidence be presented if it exists at all, even > as a guideline. > > Providing details about how the [Oh, boy, I'm tempted to put a really > seedy example here, but I'll refrain] thief is going to pick your > pocket before he does it is not exactly comforting. > > Just because something is already barcode scanned, doesn't mean that > privacy protection should not be extended, does it? My understanding is that the privacy laws are technology agnostic, so it equally applies to RFID, barcodes or any other technology. I have already assumed that privacy laws already apply to RFID application. I appreciate you may have concerns about data-mining, but this has nothing to do with RFID. The ARA guidelines ensure that Consumers are aware that products have embedded RFID tags, and that they can either remove or disable the RFID tag before the leave the shop which addresses you concern above. The EPC standard will be adopted for retail RFID item tagging. This only includes a unique product identification number and an optional serial number. (simply consider it as a serialised barcoded). There is no "other" information on the tag other than identifying the product. So I don't understand what they are going to data-mine? Retailers have the potential to data-mine now based on Loyalty Cards.. they don't need RFID. Reg Geoffrey Ramadan B.E.(Elec) Chairman, Automatic Data Capture Association (www.adca.com.au) and Managing Director, Unique Micro Design (www.umd.com.au) From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Sun Jan 13 18:23:52 2008 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (Richard Chirgwin) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 18:23:52 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? In-Reply-To: References: <47836311.20709@iimetro.com.au> <47860809.3010703@internode.on.net> <4786AC42.2030208@iimetro.com.au> <47893A69.2050208@canb.auug.org.au> <20080112224630.GA3001@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <4789BC88.3000207@ozemail.com.au> grove at zeta.org.au wrote: > On Sun, 13 Jan 2008, Janet Hawtin wrote: > >> It feels like we are optimised as a culture of consumers. > > I think you're right. And things like DMCA do not help. The "hacker > mentality" is now readily equated with terrorism. > > Chemistry sets are now sold so as to be practically inoccuous as > possible. > Hacking a modern car engine is not the same due to use of sealed > electronic > modules and most of it being "on a chip". Rachel, ... hacking the car contravenes the DMCA in America ... and yes, the death of the chemistry set is saddening, And I've been hassled by council rangers for launching bottle rockets once. ("No, it's not going to damage the grass, it's powered by water." - this was before restrictions BTW). Nobody wants anybody to do anything that isn't sold pre-purchased. > > Why bother building it when you can get a ready made Shenzen special > from Bunnings or whereever? As someone who builds when I can, I will also observe that the Shenzen special discourages building stuff in two ways: 1) Good timber - my personal preference is reclaimed Spotted Gum - is more expensive than crap ^h^h^h^h chipboard kits. 2) You can either buy crap tools or you can't afford the tools. Try planing hardwood with anything currently sold in Bunnings ... the last plane let its handle go rather than actually cut the wood. > Everything is slowly being reduced to a commodity. And if it doesn't > support some sort of "standard" then it is not allowed to be marketed > or is strictly regulated. I like standards of some kind. I don't like standards that exists solely as job-protection schemes. But I have two steel rulers that don't agree with each other; and it took many purchases to get a woodworker's square that actually had 90 degree angles. > I see Dick Smith shops as a good example of this. They used to be full > of electronic bits and you put most of your things together as a hobby, > which might later lead to a skill set that took you into a trade or > career. Mercy for the survival of Jaycar! The York Street store, at least, still has a riot of components ... RC > > Now it's a shop full of USB coffee warmers with the electronic bits > a stub of it's former glory. > > The skills are now only out there in a few die hard 20 year olds who > are sill enough to have a crazy hobby and the rest resides in people > who are now over 40 and gradually retiring. > > Let's look at a 17 minute movie that sort of sums it up for me - who > can honestly say they know someone who has at least 2 of the skills > shown, let alone the whole set: > > http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/01/make_your_own_vaccum_tube.html > > rachel > From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Sun Jan 13 18:29:09 2008 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 18:29:09 +1100 Subject: [LINK] PHP, Perl and Python pass Homeland Security test Message-ID: <4DEF7ABD-F53D-4918-ABE5-200882D0EE7D@tony-barry.emu.id.au> PHP, Perl and Python pass Homeland Security test Coverity, which creates automated source-code analysis tools, announced late Monday its first list of open-source projects that have been certified as free of security defects. phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me at Tony-Barry.emu.id.au mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry at alianet.alia.org.au http://tony-barry.emu.id.au From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Sun Jan 13 18:32:47 2008 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 18:32:47 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Google, Facebook share data with Plaxo, LinkedIn Message-ID: <2BE8B5C2-C3A0-45ED-B991-26DA91D7A1B1@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Google, Facebook share data with Plaxo, LinkedIn Google and Facebook have signed up to an alliance, DataPortability, which aims to unify identity and data management across various social-networking platforms. phone : 02 6241 7659 mobile: 04 1242 0397 -- ~| mailto: tony at Tony-Barry.emu.id.au -- \@ or tony.barry at alianet.alia.org.au -- _\\/\% http://tony-barry.emu.id.au GT3 ____(*)__(*)___ Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Restore From gdt at gdt.id.au Mon Jan 14 03:07:43 2008 From: gdt at gdt.id.au (Glen Turner) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 02:37:43 +1030 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? In-Reply-To: <47836311.20709@iimetro.com.au> References: <47836311.20709@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <1200240463.6171.144.camel@andromache> On Tue, 2008-01-08 at 22:48 +1100, Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > As technology based systems become more complex, CS students seem to > becoming less widely educated, are focussed on the internet and less > able to understand the complexity of modern systems. Hi Bernard, Not sure I buy that. There's a lot of database-backed websites around and I'd contend that many of those are OLTP systems at heart. "You say CICS, I say Ruby on Rails." I do have my own doubts about the CompSci curriculum, but mine are focused on "new" subjects which should be taught rather than old subjects which have been de-emphasised. Topping that list would be security. Followed by real-time systems, computer networking and software development and operations practicalities (configuration control, system testing, release, etc). If I had my way, then students would take an industry placing and then, eyes opened, come back to learn project management, development methodologies, writing and some people skills. I'm not too worried about the CompSci degree. There is a lot of emphasis at the universities which have traditionally offered CS to retain its rigour. What does concern me is the lack of rigour in a lot of the "information technology" degrees. I'd contend that some of these were established as money makers for universities when IT was "hot". Having written that, I do despair of many of the graduates I encounter. Maybe networking is a bit of a niche, but it's a big niche. I seem to spend most of my time teaching stuff that people should already know and repairing design errors which should not have occurred. In common with most ISPs, we get the blame for any "network outage" no matter how shoddy a site's network. ------------------ ADDRESSING THE ARTICLE As to the use of Ada in teaching, been there, done that and it hurt badly. For a first language in a CompSci degree you want a ALGOL-heritage language with object oriented extensions. The choice from that long list comes down to instructional clarity versus commercial applicability; at the extremes Lua versus C++. Ada is simply a poor compromise. It's instructionally insanely verbose and unnecessarily complex and has no commercial applicability. No commercial applicability means that recruiting teaching staff is difficult, let alone those that know the language well. It is also unfair on students that are using the subject in another degree, since they don't end up learning a skill which can be put to use in their course. Ada's verbosity just gets in the way of teaching -- you simply can't have a small example in Ada -- and it's a killer for learning -- student's need to be obsessive about the requirements of the language leaving them no capacity to think on the skill we are trying to teach. Teaching Ada did make The University of Adelaide inclined to move to another language that could be used to express large and embedded systems. Which is why it chose another language with those design goals -- Java. The danger of Java is that students know the price of nothing. That's easily fixed the next semester by teaching the C language and Computer Architecture. Formal Methods. Hmmm. It has never lived up to its promise but it is expensive to teach, taking about 8 weeks. Although I'd like to see it stay, I think a CS course would still be acceptable without it. Numerical Analysis. I spent the first three years of my working life practising this. It was my job to make sure the cents part of the ABS's figures was correct. What a Computer Scientist needs to know about N.A you can teach in about four classes. If they need any more than that then you don't want a CompSci degree you want a Math degree. There is more math that a CompSci student should know and a "Math for CS" subject following Computer Architecture is a fine plan. N.A is important for some CS research. I tend to view the over-teaching of N.A at some institutions as lecturers teaching what they know rather than what their students need. At the risk of sounding like doing something similar, I'd drop a fair whack of statistics into the "Math for CS" subject, since as soon as you measure something knowing some stats is useful. Anyway, I've been a teaching casual in CompSci classes for two decades now whilst working and the above is the little I've learned :-( -- Glen Turner Tel: 0416 295 857 or +61 416 295 857 From mikal at stillhq.com Sun Jan 13 17:11:05 2008 From: mikal at stillhq.com (Michael Still) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:11:05 -0800 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? In-Reply-To: References: <47836311.20709@iimetro.com.au> <47860809.3010703@internode.on.net> <4786AC42.2030208@iimetro.com.au> <47893A69.2050208@canb.auug.org.au> <20080112224630.GA3001@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <4789AB79.10400@stillhq.com> grove at zeta.org.au wrote: > On Sun, 13 Jan 2008, Janet Hawtin wrote: > >> It feels like we are optimised as a culture of consumers. I feel that way especially when governments talk about me that way. For example, why would reducing my mortgage bill cause me to go and immediately spend more at some retail chain? I feel sometimes like the government would rather I was a cow or something. > I think you're right. And things like DMCA do not help. The "hacker > mentality" is now readily equated with terrorism. > > Chemistry sets are now sold so as to be practically inoccuous as possible. > Hacking a modern car engine is not the same due to use of sealed electronic > modules and most of it being "on a chip". You're confusing two issues here me thinks. Chemistry set changes == war on terror gone wrong. Car complexity == understandable progress. The car manufacturers didn't change the implementation of engine management to annoy you -- they did it to make a better engine. Oh, and you can buy debug cables for most of them online that let you plug in like a service person would. Mikal From cas at taz.net.au Mon Jan 14 10:06:20 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 10:06:20 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Contract signed for national health ID system In-Reply-To: <47885D31.5010302@lockstep.com.au> References: <478851A1.2060000@iimetro.com.au> <47885D31.5010302@lockstep.com.au> Message-ID: <20080113230620.GB6828@taz.net.au> On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 05:24:49PM +1100, Stephen Wilson wrote: > Holy innumeracy! > > A "$51 billion contract" would match the annual expenditure of the entire > Australian health sector. yes, well, stuff like that shouldn't surprise anyone. e.g the vic govt is replacing the current public transport ticketing system with a new smart card system, at a cost of $500M - half a billion dollars! and the only "advantage" it has over the existing tickets is that it allows them to track who travelled where, and when and how often (and, by inference, who with). in theory, it will eventually allow travellers to also purchase other items with the card. YASIC - Yet Another Stealth Identity Card. and, of course, it's another opportunity for corporate welfare. which is why we pay taxes, after all. obviously, it has never occurred to anyone in govt that there are much better things to spend half a billion dollars on, even without looking outside the public transport system. craig -- craig sanders BOFH excuse #270: Someone has messed up the kernel pointers From linda at databasics.com.au Mon Jan 14 11:09:48 2008 From: linda at databasics.com.au (Linda Rouse) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 10:09:48 +1000 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? Message-ID: Interesting article from Butler Group's TechWatch today. on decline of ICT in the UK. . . especially 3rd para that discusses the lack of business skills rather than the lack of software science and technology... hmm http://www.butlergroup.com/research/KCInterPages/%7B4C486CA4-F7AF-4D50-802F-C77CCDAF5D5E%7D.asp 'The Council of Professors and Heads of Computing (CPHC) represents and promotes the teaching of computing science and ICT at university level in the UK. Earlier this year, it released a briefing note on the diminishing pipeline of UK graduates in these areas and the consequences for UK industry, which highlights what I believe to be a deeply worrying picture. Firstly, between 2001 and 2006 there was a 42% decrease in students beginning ICT courses, despite the fact that the number of ICT job vacancies indicates a strong level of demand. There are also few signs of an imminent improvement, with numbers of pupils studying ICT at GCSE and A-level also decreasing. One of CPHC's own studies indicated that of those who do graduate with an ICT degree, only 27% are in work in IT-professional roles, evenly split between supply-side roles in the IT industry and demand-side roles in user organisations, whilst 41% of all ICT graduates are in some form of IT-related work. Apart from the skills shortage itself, one of the background concerns raised by CPHC is that many of the places available, particularly when one reaches postgraduate level, are being taken up by overseas students, so that whilst we are helping to improve the expertise of competitors, the UK itself is starting to suffer badly. I am also concerned, however, about the focus of both undergraduate and postgraduate ICT courses: the majority of these still have an overwhelming computer science and technology focus. Don't get me wrong,I think it is vital to put the strong theoretical foundations in place, but as the emphasis within both supply-side and demand-side roles shifts towards technology management and exploitation, there needs to be much greater prominence given to the application of these skills in practical business scenarios. There are some encouraging signs here, with more institutions starting to offer courses in Computing for Business or similar titles.' regards Linda -- ================= Linda Rouse, Information Manager DataBasics Pty Limited Phone 1300 886 238 (bus.) Email linda at databasics.com.au Web http://www.databasics.com.au From gramadan at umd.com.au Mon Jan 14 11:24:10 2008 From: gramadan at umd.com.au (Geoffrey Ramadan) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:24:10 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Contract signed for national health ID system In-Reply-To: <20080113230620.GB6828@taz.net.au> References: <478851A1.2060000@iimetro.com.au> <47885D31.5010302@lockstep.com.au> <20080113230620.GB6828@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <478AABAA.5010308@umd.com.au> Craig Sanders wrote: > On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 05:24:49PM +1100, Stephen Wilson wrote: >> Holy innumeracy! >> >> A "$51 billion contract" would match the annual expenditure of the entire >> Australian health sector. > > yes, well, stuff like that shouldn't surprise anyone. > > e.g the vic govt is replacing the current public transport ticketing > system with a new smart card system, at a cost of $500M - half a billion > dollars! and the only "advantage" it has over the existing tickets is > that it allows them to track who travelled where, and when and how often > (and, by inference, who with). in theory, it will eventually allow > travellers to also purchase other items with the card. > > YASIC - Yet Another Stealth Identity Card. The new Victorian ticketing system is based on a MIFARE payment technology. It will use both paper based tickets and reloadable cards. It is an anonymous electronic payment system. There is no user identification and therefore nothing to link the card to the purchaser. However, I do understand you can optionally register the "Card ID" number, so in the case you loose your card, instead of loosing your "cash", you can transfer to the funds to a new card. Note that a number of banks will be introducing MIFARE based systems this year. Regards Geoffrey Ramadan, B.E.(Elec) Chairman, Automatic Data Capture Australia (www.adca.com.au) and Managing Director, Unique Micro Design (www.umd.com.au) > > and, of course, it's another opportunity for corporate welfare. which > is why we pay taxes, after all. > > obviously, it has never occurred to anyone in govt that there are much > better things to spend half a billion dollars on, even without looking > outside the public transport system. > > craig > From rick at praxis.com.au Mon Jan 14 11:26:49 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:26:49 +1100 Subject: [LINK] PHP, Perl and Python pass Homeland Security test In-Reply-To: <4DEF7ABD-F53D-4918-ABE5-200882D0EE7D@tony-barry.emu.id.au> References: <4DEF7ABD-F53D-4918-ABE5-200882D0EE7D@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Message-ID: <478AAC49.80200@praxis.com.au> Antony Barry wrote: > PHP, Perl and Python pass Homeland Security test > Coverity, which creates automated source-code analysis tools, announced > late Monday its first list of open-source projects that have been > certified as free of security defects. > > Therein lies a grand sense of false security: "The certification was created so that companies can "select these open- source applications with even greater confidence," Coverity said." Erm .... yeah. So, no obvious buffer overflows were detected in PHP, for example, by an automated software scanner. Big deal. That does not make the software applications secure by any means. PHP, continuing the example, is one of the Internet's most commonly used languages for (often quick and dirty) websites. And it is one of the Internet's most insecure languages. Not because of what some automated scanner can find in its language processor. That is the least of our worries. It is insecure because it is difficult to write secure applications in the language. The same can be said for Perl and Python. Yup, great scripting tools when you keep them away from direct access by web monkeys. Once you start writing network-exposed applications that provide SQL services, URL parsing and passing and/or access to web app frameworks, bingo! A clever script kiddie can exploit SQL injection, cross-site scripting and more to exploit your application to do anything from send spam and distribute porn to actually shutdown the service. A google for " vulnerability" (both words required consecutively) turned up these results: PHP 11000 hits Perl 5170 hits Python 2070 hits And some examples of what can happen with PHP: "PHP contains code for intelligently parsing the headers of HTTP POST requests. The code is used to differentiate between variables and files sent by the user agent in a "multipart/form-data" request. This parser has insufficient input checking, leading to the vulnerability. ... This vulnerability may be exploited to compromise the web server and, under certain conditions, to gain privileged access." e.g. roll your HTTP request and get access to the server "Anyone with access to websites hosted on a web server which employs the CGI module may exploit this vulnerability to gain access to any file readable by the user under which the webserver runs." e.g. read any (confidential) file on the server. nasty. "s.masugata has reported a vulnerability in PHP, which potentially can be exploited by malicious people to use it as an open mail relay." e.g. use the server to send spam. really nasty. esp. if undetected. It would be gratifying indeed if automated software scanners could find vulnerabilities like the above real-world examples, but I am not holding breath. Sadly, an article like this will be read by the PHB who can then report to his superiors that, yup, he has hired PFY to write the amazing web app they need, and he is confident the application will be secure, since a ZDnet article says so. The article implies that applications written in these certified languages are secure, which is of course balderdash. The language parser and dispatcher themselves itself may be written in a secure manner, but the same cannot be said for applications you or I or anyone writes. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Say what you will about the miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile. -- Howard W Campbell in Kurt Vonnegut Jr's "Mother Night" From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au Mon Jan 14 11:26:13 2008 From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:26:13 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Technology that exposes your dirty linen In-Reply-To: References: <4781F28D.5080803@hunterlink.net.au> <20080109004003.96B1829901@heartbeat2.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20080114002734.7026C2BD62@heartbeat2.messagingengine.com> At 12:06 PM 10/01/2008, Roger Clarke wrote: >... reminded me of this proposal for data self-destruction: > >Escaping the data panopticon: Prof says computers must learn to "forget" >By Nate Anderson | Published: May 09, 2007 - 08:52AM CT >http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070509-escaping-the-data-panopticon-teaching-computers-to-forget.html >... > >... Essentially, this means that all collected data is tagged with a >new piece of metadata that defines when the information should expire. ... Yes, the old ways of cleaning out data, such as fire, flood or earthquake, will not work as well in the online distributed environment. Perhaps rather than a fixed disposal date, as this article proposes, the data could have its own "social network" to work out when it should be deleted. The system would work out how many degrees of separation there are between different data elements. When an element of data becomes very remote from everything else it is a candidate for deletion. The same approach could be used for automatically granting access to data: data near your data is likely to be something you need to know. Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington at tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 http://www.tomw.net.au/ Adjunct Senior Lecturer, ANU From adrian at creative.net.au Mon Jan 14 11:39:24 2008 From: adrian at creative.net.au (Adrian Chadd) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:39:24 +0900 Subject: [LINK] Contract signed for national health ID system In-Reply-To: <478AABAA.5010308@umd.com.au> References: <478851A1.2060000@iimetro.com.au> <47885D31.5010302@lockstep.com.au> <20080113230620.GB6828@taz.net.au> <478AABAA.5010308@umd.com.au> Message-ID: <20080114003924.GO15773@skywalker.creative.net.au> On Mon, Jan 14, 2008, Geoffrey Ramadan wrote: > The new Victorian ticketing system is based on a MIFARE payment technology. Wasn't MIFARE just cracked wide open recently? Adrian From cas at taz.net.au Mon Jan 14 12:05:29 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 12:05:29 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Contract signed for national health ID system In-Reply-To: <478AABAA.5010308@umd.com.au> References: <478851A1.2060000@iimetro.com.au> <47885D31.5010302@lockstep.com.au> <20080113230620.GB6828@taz.net.au> <478AABAA.5010308@umd.com.au> Message-ID: <20080114010529.GD6828@taz.net.au> On Mon, Jan 14, 2008 at 11:24:10AM +1100, Geoffrey Ramadan wrote: > The new Victorian ticketing system is based on a MIFARE payment technology. > > It will use both paper based tickets and reloadable cards. > > It is an anonymous electronic payment system. There is no user > identification and therefore nothing to link the card to the purchaser. > > However, I do understand you can optionally register the "Card ID" number, > so in the case you loose your card, instead of loosing your "cash", you can > transfer to the funds to a new card. i bet that it will end up being the other way around - registration is by default and you can, in theory, after a lot of bureacratic stuffing around and delays and hassle, get an anonymous card if you really insist. and the majority of the public will just accept it without thinking about it, the same way that they enthusiastically accept other stealth id cards like flybuys. give, or just promise, some trivial benefit and they'll leap at the chance. all that misses the central point of my post, though - even if it were perfect, and does everything it's supposed to, and has no bugs, and wassn't a stealth ID card, there's STILL no way it can possibly be worth anything like half a billion dollars. that is just absurd. craig -- craig sanders "The universe is not hostile, nor yet is it friendly. It is simply indifferent." [John H. Holmes, A Sensible Man's View of Religion, 1933] From eric.scheid at ironclad.net.au Mon Jan 14 12:23:03 2008 From: eric.scheid at ironclad.net.au (Eric Scheid) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 12:23:03 +1100 Subject: [LINK] ePetitions, Oz Style? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/1/08 2:11 PM, "Roger Clarke" wrote: > "The new Petitions Committee, consisting of 10 members of Parliament > (six Government and four Opposition members [so much for the Senate > cross-benches]), will receive and consider petitions lodged and > report on appropriate action", [Leader of the House] Mr Albanese said. > > Of some interest to link, however: "The committee will also consider > moving to electronic petitions, as the [British] Government has > done", he said. more on this ... Petitions to receive greater attention Matthew Franklin, Chief political correspondent | January 12, 2008 http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23040476-5013871,00.html KEVIN Rudd is to require parliament to formally consider and report on petitions lodged by citizens, ending more than a century in which petitions simply gathered dust on parliamentary shelves. Labor will appoint a 10-person House of Representatives committee to review petitions and propose government action to address the issues they raise. More than one million Australians signed more than 900 petitions to parliament during the Howard government's final three-year term. But in almost all cases, the petitions were simply tabled and seldom raised again. Labor's Leader of the House of Representatives Anthony Albanese conceded yesterday that since Federation in 1901, petitions had simply "gathered dust in the bowels of parliament". "The creation of the petitions committee is an important reform which strengthens the democratic rights of citizens and ensures that parliament is listening and responding appropriately," Mr Albanese said. Yesterday's announcement is expected to be the first of a range of changes to parliamentary practice under the Rudd Government. ... Mr Albanese said the petitions committee, which will include six government members and four non-government members, would give millions of Australians who organised or signed petitions confidence their voices would be heard. Although the Howard government received 900 petitions between 2004 and last year, it had responded to only two, Mr Albanese said. "The Rudd Labor Government is committed to boosting parliamentary democracy and scrutiny," he said. "Almost 15,000 Australians petitioned the previous government in 2007 for a commonwealth dental scheme -- which the Rudd Labor Government pledged to introduce during the election." In another change, petitions will no longer need to be formally sponsored by an MP, as Mr Albanese insisted citizens had a basic right to petition parliament. And he said the new committee would also investigate whether parliament should accept electronic submissions, which are allowed in the British parliament. ... From gdt at gdt.id.au Mon Jan 14 12:32:23 2008 From: gdt at gdt.id.au (Glen Turner) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 12:02:23 +1030 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? In-Reply-To: <4789AA83.80707@lockstep.com.au> References: <47836311.20709@iimetro.com.au> <47860809.3010703@internode.on.net> <4786AC42.2030208@iimetro.com.au> <47893A69.2050208@canb.auug.org.au> <20080113020256.GA31047@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> <478992F4.5020004@canb.auug.org.au> <4789AA83.80707@lockstep.com.au> Message-ID: <1200274343.6209.30.camel@andromache> On Sun, 2008-01-13 at 17:06 +1100, Stephen Wilson wrote: > I remember a year or two when the ACS proposed enhancing the > professionalism of the IT sector. The suggestions floated included an > continuing education and a code of conduct. Pretty innocuous stuff, and > way, way short of regulation. But the outcry from the grassroots IT > community was virulent. The ACS has a very peculiar and narrow view of "professional" -- basically meaning "Information Technology Professional". This doesn't matter if ACS membership is a matter of choice; the ACS are free to narrow their membership how they please. But the proposal was that this membership be deemed "professional", obviously deeming all others as unprofessional. Many professional people in the broader industry of computing objected to that distinction. Many people saw it as providing the ACS with an income for no benefit. And not just the ACS, but a whole industry of "ACS accredited professional development courses". In my own circumstance I am fortunate enough to attend seminars at the cutting edge of computer networking. If I am taught the mathematics of TCP dynamics by the leader in the field, that counts for nought if the seminar is not "accredited". Actually developing a component of a new technology counts less towards my professionalism than sitting in an ACS-approved course where someone else tells me about the technology I invented. Cheers, Glen From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Mon Jan 14 12:48:46 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 12:48:46 +1100 Subject: [LINK] ePetitions, Oz Style? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:22 +1100 14/1/08, a linker wrote: >Petitions to receive greater attention >Matthew Franklin, Chief political correspondent | January 12, 2008 >http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23040476-5013871,00.html > >KEVIN Rudd is to require parliament to formally consider and report on >petitions lodged by citizens, ending more than a century in which petitions >simply gathered dust on parliamentary shelves. ... Back in 1996 I did a Keynote at VALA on 'Virtual Chewing Gum on Virtual Library Seats? Human Behaviour in Electronic Communities'. I feel a sequel coming on, called 'Virtual Dust on Citizen Petitions? Parliamentarian Behaviour under Electronic Duress'. But actually there are some genuinely positive signs in this report. > ... Labor will appoint a >10-person House of Representatives committee to review petitions and propose >government action to address the issues they raise. > >More than one million Australians signed more than 900 petitions to >parliament during the Howard government's final three-year term. But in >almost all cases, the petitions were simply tabled and seldom raised again. > >Labor's Leader of the House of Representatives Anthony Albanese conceded >yesterday that since Federation in 1901, petitions had simply "gathered dust >in the bowels of parliament". > >"The creation of the petitions committee is an important reform which >strengthens the democratic rights of citizens and ensures that parliament is >listening and responding appropriately," Mr Albanese said. Yesterday's >announcement is expected to be the first of a range of changes to >parliamentary practice under the Rudd Government. > >... > >Mr Albanese said the petitions committee, which will include six government >members and four non-government members, would give millions of Australians >who organised or signed petitions confidence their voices would be heard. > >Although the Howard government received 900 petitions between 2004 and last >year, it had responded to only two, Mr Albanese said. "The Rudd Labor >Government is committed to boosting parliamentary democracy and scrutiny," >he said. "Almost 15,000 Australians petitioned the previous government in >2007 for a commonwealth dental scheme -- which the Rudd Labor Government >pledged to introduce during the election." > >In another change, petitions will no longer need to be formally sponsored by >an MP, as Mr Albanese insisted citizens had a basic right to petition >parliament. And he said the new committee would also investigate whether >parliament should accept electronic submissions, which are allowed in the >British parliament. > >... -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From brd at iimetro.com.au Mon Jan 14 13:07:26 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:07:26 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? Message-ID: <478AC3DE.1020008@iimetro.com.au> What does not seem to be appreciated by many in the ICT and/or education worlds is that today's complex systems are more than technology and/or software. What I do not see is an education system that promotes "system" development and thinking (I use quotes to differentiate from System Engineering that has a very strong engineering, technical and mathematical focus). The Access Card project failed because the system that was the project was a failure, not the system itself. Mind you, the fact that nobody could define the system itself didn't help. And the most serious problem that I see today is this: How does someone with no knowledge or expertise in a particular area select people to deliver in that area? Examples: How do you pick a plumber, electrician or other tradesman? How does a Departmental Secretary select someone to deliver an IT project? How does a business manager know that her IT department has the right skill set? How does a business know that a vendor can deliver a) what is promised and b) what is needed? How can an electorate select a politician or political party to run its government? -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From brd at iimetro.com.au Mon Jan 14 13:14:22 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:14:22 +1100 Subject: [LINK] ePetitions, Oz Style? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <478AC57E.6080002@iimetro.com.au> Do I detect the hand of Senator the Hon. John Faulkner behind this? IMHO with Senator Faulkner as Special Minister of State and Cabinet Secretary, there is hope for democracy in this country yet. -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From linda at databasics.com.au Mon Jan 14 13:35:37 2008 From: linda at databasics.com.au (Linda Rouse) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 12:35:37 +1000 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? In-Reply-To: <478AC3DE.1020008@iimetro.com.au> References: <478AC3DE.1020008@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: Whilst on the topic (sort of) of IT failures... I guess most Linkers are familiar with 'Pessimism as an Information System Management Tool in the Public Sector: Lessons from the INCIS Fiasco in the New Zealand Police Force' by Tony Dale et al.. http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/research/reports/TechReps/2002/tr_0202.pdf Bernard wrote: >What does not seem to be appreciated by many in the ICT and/or >education worlds is that today's complex systems are more than >technology and/or software. > >What I do not see is an education system that promotes "system" >development and thinking (I use quotes to differentiate from System >Engineering that has a very strong engineering, technical and >mathematical focus). > >The Access Card project failed because the system that was the >project was a failure, not the system itself. Mind you, the fact >that nobody could define the system itself didn't help. Essential reading for Knowledge managers lessons learned...! regards Linda -- ================= Linda Rouse, Information Manager DataBasics Pty Limited Phone 1300 886 238 (bus.) Email linda at databasics.com.au Web http://www.databasics.com.au From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Mon Jan 14 13:50:59 2008 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:50:59 +1100 Subject: [LINK] ePetitions, Oz Style? In-Reply-To: <478AC57E.6080002@iimetro.com.au> References: <478AC57E.6080002@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: On 14/01/2008, at 1:14 PM, Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > Do I detect the hand of Senator the Hon. John Faulkner behind this? > > IMHO with Senator Faulkner as Special Minister of State and Cabinet > Secretary, there is hope for democracy in this country yet. And perhaps Harry Evans, the Clerk of the Senate. Tony phone : 02 6241 7659 mobile: 04 1242 0397 -- ~| mailto: tony at Tony-Barry.emu.id.au -- \@ or tony.barry at alianet.alia.org.au -- _\\/\% http://tony-barry.emu.id.au GT3 ____(*)__(*)___ Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Restore From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Mon Jan 14 13:58:26 2008 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:58:26 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Boeing works to protect Dreamliner from hackers Message-ID: Gawd! What next.... Boeing works to protect Dreamliner from hackers Posted Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:12pm AEDT The American aviation giant Boeing says it is doing everything necessary to ensure that its newest passenger plane - the 787 Dreamliner - is safe from computer hackers. Passengers on board the airliner will be offered in-flight access to the internet, prompting fears that critical information in the plane's data systems could be inadvertently or deliberately corrupted. The US Federal Aviation Administration says it is working closely with Boeing to ensure the plane's electronic controls are not vulnerable. Tony phone : 02 6241 7659 mobile: 04 1242 0397 -- ~| mailto: tony at Tony-Barry.emu.id.au -- \@ or tony.barry at alianet.alia.org.au -- _\\/\% http://tony-barry.emu.id.au GT3 ____(*)__(*)___ Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Restore From linda at databasics.com.au Mon Jan 14 14:05:39 2008 From: linda at databasics.com.au (Linda Rouse) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:05:39 +1000 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? In-Reply-To: <478ACA87.9090503@canb.auug.org.au> References: <478ACA87.9090503@canb.auug.org.au> Message-ID: Sorry about the TechWatch Registration..! Most of the info was included in my posting - it continues 'Against this background, it is interesting to note a recent initiative within the retailer Marks & Spencer to move its ICT staff closer to thebusiness by placing smaller teams within individual business functions, and to recruit technology graduates with business acumen rather than simply technology qualifications. I believe that this will be a trend repeated throughout organisations over the next few years, but the underlying picture painted by CPHC suggests that the pipeline is unprepared to meet this demand. At a time when industry is bemoaning the lack of appropriate ICT and business skills, and struggling to attract the right calibre of person, there is an unfortunate disconnect between the investment made in training and professional development in the workplace, and that carried out in conjunction with the Higher Education sector (the Lambert review on business-university collaboration across all sectors indicated only a 1% feed-through). I believe it is essential therefore, that private- and public-sector organisations engage more closely with both higher education and with schools, to communicate the future requirements for ICT skills and their application within business, and to become actively involved in their funding and development. One of the conclusions of CPHC's report was that the government should provide incentives for industry to sponsor courses and students, and I feel that such an initiative would be very beneficial in helping to close this gap.' Linda >Linda Rouse wrote on 14/1/08 11:09 AM: >> Interesting article from Butler Group's TechWatch today. on decline of >> ICT in the UK. . . especially 3rd para that discusses the lack of >> business skills rather than the lack of software science and >> technology... hmm >> >> >>http://www.butlergroup.com/research/KCInterPages/%7B4C486CA4-F7AF-4D50-802F-C77CCDAF5D5E%7D.asp >> >> >Ahem, "Registration Required" :-( > >thanks for a great contribution. > >s -- ================= Linda Rouse, Information Manager DataBasics Pty Limited Phone 1300 886 238 (bus.) Email linda at databasics.com.au Web http://www.databasics.com.au From adam.pointon at sentinelsecurity.com.au Mon Jan 14 14:27:46 2008 From: adam.pointon at sentinelsecurity.com.au (Adam Pointon) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:27:46 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Contract signed for national health ID system References: Message-ID: >> The new Victorian ticketing system is based on a MIFARE payment >> technology. From: Jan Krissler Organization: Chaos Computer Club Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:20:45 +0100 Hi. Maybe some of you are using Mifare based RFID systems for payment or access controll. you should start to migrate soon. As shown on the 24th chaos communication congress http://berlin.ccc.de/~24c3_torrents/24c3-2378-en- mifare_security.mkv.torrent the proprietary crypto algorithm used in mifare is not a secret anymore. We havnt disclosed it yet but we will as soon as a practical implemetation is done. From brd at iimetro.com.au Mon Jan 14 14:27:27 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:27:27 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? In-Reply-To: References: <478AC3DE.1020008@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <478AD69F.3010307@iimetro.com.au> Linda Rouse wrote: > Whilst on the topic (sort of) of IT failures... I guess most Linkers are > familiar with > 'Pessimism as an Information System Management Tool in the Public > Sector: Lessons from the INCIS Fiasco in the New Zealand Police Force' > by Tony Dale et al.. > http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/research/reports/TechReps/2002/tr_0202.pdf Thanks for the pointer Linda, I'll add that to my collection of failed projects. I worked at IBM in Canberra when NCIS was coming to an end. A very senior IBMer came over from the USA and did an informal review of the project. The root cause of the problem was that a couple of software gurus from a USA lab flew in, proposed that the police replace their highly optimised, mainframe based, green screen applications with a three tier client server system and flew out, never to be seen again. And that was the source of the whole problem - everything else flowed from that decision. The fact that it had never been done before, that nobody knew if it could be built or would work were not even identified let alone understood by those in charge. Which gets back to my point about people making decisions outside their area of competency. Nobody was able to make a value judgement about a project that was, in effect, R&D. The problem with governments is that they want certainty, therefore the budget and timeframe are set first. You can't do that with projects that are first offs, which is what happens with most large scale IT developments. BTW, the statement in that paper "The majority of information system (IS) developments are unsuccessful" is probably wrong. Most large enterprises have big Information Systems that support their business. So how did they get developed? I suspect that the statement might be a bit more valid if the context is "first off systems developed by external parties such as consultants and/or vendors." -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From eric.scheid at ironclad.net.au Mon Jan 14 14:28:32 2008 From: eric.scheid at ironclad.net.au (Eric Scheid) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:28:32 +1100 Subject: [LINK] ePetitions, Oz Style? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >> KEVIN Rudd is to require parliament to formally consider and report on >> petitions lodged by citizens, ending more than a century in which petitions >> simply gathered dust on parliamentary shelves. ... ... >> And he said the new committee would also investigate whether >> parliament should accept electronic submissions, which are allowed in the >> British parliament. Another thought occurred to me .. do they really, non-rhetorically, have a century's worth of petitions shelved away somewhere .. because there would probably be a historian or two interested in that. Which then also raises the usual question of will we be able to access today's e-petitions in 100 years time? e. From brendansweb at optusnet.com.au Mon Jan 14 14:54:33 2008 From: brendansweb at optusnet.com.au (Brendan Scott) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:54:33 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Boeing works to protect Dreamliner from hackers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <478ADCF9.50502@optusnet.com.au> Antony Barry wrote: > Gawd! What next.... > > Boeing works to protect Dreamliner from hackers > > Posted Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:12pm AEDT > > The American aviation giant Boeing says it is doing everything necessary > to ensure that its newest passenger plane - the 787 Dreamliner - is safe > from computer hackers. > > Passengers on board the airliner will be offered in-flight access to the > internet, prompting fears that critical information in the plane's data > systems could be inadvertently or deliberately corrupted. > > The US Federal Aviation Administration says it is working closely with > Boeing to ensure the plane's electronic controls are not vulnerable. > > air gap? so to speak... From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au Mon Jan 14 15:05:51 2008 From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:05:51 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Boeing works to protect Dreamliner from hackers In-Reply-To: <478ADCF9.50502@optusnet.com.au> References: <478ADCF9.50502@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20080114040551.GA20207@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> > > > > air gap? Between the ears of whoever thought there was a news story in this. Danny. --------------------------------------------------------- http://dannyreviews.com/ - over nine hundred book reviews http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog --------------------------------------------------------- From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Mon Jan 14 17:39:42 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 17:39:42 +1100 Subject: [LINK] OT: The Frank Lowy Touch Message-ID: This coming weekend is the final round of the A-League. The Top 4 are: F A D Last Game Queensland Roar FC 25 19 6 A Adel 4 Sydney FC 26 22 4 H Melb 3 Central Coast Mariners FC 28 25 3 H Well 2 Newcastle Jets FC 23 20 3 H Prth 1 By total fluke, each team starts its game knowing what it has to do in order to finish in front of the team(s) below it If all Draw, it stays as-is If all win or lose by the same goal-difference, it stays as-is If Qld wins by N goals and scores S goals, Qld can still miss out on the Championship if any of these occur: Sydney wins by N+2 goals and scores S+2 goals (e.g. 3-0 or 4-1 beats 1-0) Mariners win by N+3 goals and score S+3 (e.g. 4-0 beats 1-0) Newcstle wins by N+3 goals and scores S+3 (e.g. 4-0 beats 1-0) If Qld draw or lose, then every win beats them If Qld lose, then every win and every draw beats them And a similar table to the above is needed for Sydney and then Mariners Roger, get back to work -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From lucychili at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 20:17:03 2008 From: lucychili at gmail.com (Janet Hawtin) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:47:03 +1030 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? In-Reply-To: <478AD69F.3010307@iimetro.com.au> References: <478AC3DE.1020008@iimetro.com.au> <478AD69F.3010307@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: On Jan 14, 2008 1:57 PM, Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > I worked at IBM in Canberra when NCIS was coming to an end. A very > senior IBMer came over from the USA and did an informal review of the > project. The root cause of the problem was that a couple of software > gurus from a USA lab flew in, proposed that the police replace their > highly optimised, mainframe based, green screen applications with a > three tier client server system and flew out, never to be seen again. > And that was the source of the whole problem - everything else flowed > from that decision. The fact that it had never been done before, that > nobody knew if it could be built or would work were not even identified > let alone understood by those in charge. How common is that kind of flyby consultancy? What does it mean for local innovation, leadership and systems thinking? Which projects are done in ways which value/build local leadership and innovation? Janet From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Mon Jan 14 20:31:46 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 20:31:46 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Oscar Pistorius Message-ID: The evening news carried reports about Oscar Pistorius - the double-amputee who is about to be banned from athletics competition because his prostheses have become orthoses and hence an unfair advantage. Only 2-1/4 years ago this was less well-known, and I featured Oscar in the slides that accompanied an invited presentation at Ars Electronica in Linz: Human-Artefact Hybridisation: Forms and Consequences http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/SOS/HAH0505.html http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/SOS/ArsEl050822.ppt -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Mon Jan 14 20:44:13 2008 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 20:44:13 +1100 Subject: [LINK] ePetitions, Oz Style? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CCF85A8-AE59-46A7-8088-6750F1CDB83C@tony-barry.emu.id.au> On 14/01/2008, at 2:28 PM, Eric Scheid wrote: > Another thought occurred to me .. do they really, non-rhetorically, > have a > century's worth of petitions shelved away somewhere Having worked nine years at the Parliament I would be amazed if they were not preserved. Tony phone : 02 6241 7659 mobile: 04 1242 0397 -- ~| mailto: tony at Tony-Barry.emu.id.au -- \@ or tony.barry at alianet.alia.org.au -- _\\/\% http://tony-barry.emu.id.au GT3 ____(*)__(*)___ Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Restore From brd at iimetro.com.au Mon Jan 14 21:00:11 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 21:00:11 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? In-Reply-To: References: <478AC3DE.1020008@iimetro.com.au> <478AD69F.3010307@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <478B32AB.7030707@iimetro.com.au> Janet Hawtin wrote: > On Jan 14, 2008 1:57 PM, Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > > >>I worked at IBM in Canberra when NCIS was coming to an end. A very >>senior IBMer came over from the USA and did an informal review of the >>project. The root cause of the problem was that a couple of software >>gurus from a USA lab flew in, proposed that the police replace their >>highly optimised, mainframe based, green screen applications with a >>three tier client server system and flew out, never to be seen again. > > >>And that was the source of the whole problem - everything else flowed >>from that decision. The fact that it had never been done before, that >>nobody knew if it could be built or would work were not even identified >>let alone understood by those in charge. > > > How common is that kind of flyby consultancy? In my experience, quite common. > What does it mean for local innovation, leadership and systems thinking? And the overseas contribution is not the issue. In the case of the Access Card the source of the problem (a couple of really bad decisions, which nobody who mattered, understood or challenged) was all done in Australia, by Australians. > Which projects are done in ways which value/build local leadership and > innovation? Projects where the goals are properly understood by people who have done it or something similar before and where the imperatives of time, cost and function/performance are balanced. Notice I used the term "goals", not system. The system may not have been built before but the type of project has been done before. You can build a "first off" system very successfully as long as you recognise that it is a "first off" and if the time and cost constraints are flexible. Unfortunately, in the early stages of the project, the really experienced system person who can recognise the "first off" nature of the system is usually not part of the team. That's when we get back to the "how do you pick a plumber?" problem. -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From lucychili at gmail.com Mon Jan 14 21:10:38 2008 From: lucychili at gmail.com (Janet Hawtin) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 20:40:38 +1030 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? In-Reply-To: <478B32AB.7030707@iimetro.com.au> References: <478AC3DE.1020008@iimetro.com.au> <478AD69F.3010307@iimetro.com.au> <478B32AB.7030707@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: On Jan 14, 2008 8:30 PM, Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > Unfortunately, in the early stages of the project, the really > experienced system person who can recognise the "first off" nature of > the system is usually not part of the team. That's when we get back to > the "how do you pick a plumber?" problem. Could this not be resolved by making the process of defining the question open so that the kinds of people who would give you interesting responses in that situation would become apparent. That way you do not get a plumber you get someone with excellent specific knowledge on integrated grey water systems in an on topic context? Janet From grove at zeta.org.au Mon Jan 14 21:55:56 2008 From: grove at zeta.org.au (grove at zeta.org.au) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 21:55:56 +1100 (EST) Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? In-Reply-To: References: <478AC3DE.1020008@iimetro.com.au> <478AD69F.3010307@iimetro.com.au> <478B32AB.7030707@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jan 2008, Janet Hawtin wrote: > On Jan 14, 2008 8:30 PM, Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > >> Unfortunately, in the early stages of the project, the really >> experienced system person who can recognise the "first off" nature of >> the system is usually not part of the team. That's when we get back to >> the "how do you pick a plumber?" problem. > > Could this not be resolved by making the process of defining the > question open so that the kinds of people who would give you > interesting responses in that situation would become apparent. That > way you do not get a plumber you get someone with excellent specific > knowledge on integrated grey water systems in an on topic context? Where I work at , projects are launched all the time, with very large meetings of "stakeholders" and "business owners". The technical side is often glossed over. The people least likely to be able identify early problems or technical issues are often given the leads or commitment to the project. The people most able to adapt their skills to the projects are often ignored or told "that's a technical issue we'll come to later" and the ideas or recommendations are rarely taken on board. Most of the projects are eventually successful, but only after overrunning stupid deadlines. Most of these projects are in fact small in nature, in that a reasonably skilled admin or programmer could do them in a few afternoons and then do a handover. But instead things like a set of php web forms, a Remedy installation or the deployment of a CMS become major tasks, with up to 6 or 7 people involved at various levels. Then there the projects which are mostly outsourced. These seem to take much longer than they should and signoff often means ignoring sysadmins who want peer review of installations and so on. Also there are situations where competing products are installed and deployed, Moodle where a small fortune has already been spent on WebCT, Sharepoint (which eats about 6 staff) vs Wiki and CMS and an endless stream of vendors finger pointing that the Cisco switch we were sold yesterday, doesn't comply with EMC's SAN and Sun's Solaris although a product matrix says it should. Somehow, all these things are overcome and a project emerges to completion, running on a hugely overspecced computer with the OS dumbed down to meet user's expectations and please don't blame IE6 if SSL doesn't work - it must be apache's fault.... rachel -- Rachel Polanskis Kingswood, Greater Western Sydney, Australia grove at zeta.org.au http://www.zeta.org.au/~grove/grove.html The price of greatness is responsibility. From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Mon Jan 14 22:10:41 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 22:10:41 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? In-Reply-To: References: <478AC3DE.1020008@iimetro.com.au> <478AD69F.3010307@iimetro.com.au> <478B32AB.7030707@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <6hhft4$lasm7@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> At 09:10 PM 14/01/2008, Janet Hawtin wrote: > > the "how do you pick a plumber?" problem. > >Could this not be resolved by making the process of defining the >question open so that the kinds of people who would give you >interesting responses in that situation would become apparent. That >way you do not get a plumber you get someone with excellent specific >knowledge on integrated grey water systems in an on topic context? I was involved in a project with just that approach back a few years now with a major uni. They got money from ARC to build something that hadn't been built before, brought me in from outside and trusted me to get it done. Did a bit of talking to a few folks, got a rough spec together, put out an RFI, interviewed a couple of vendors who thought they had solutions that migth do the job, or at least platforms that were flexible enough to do it, the uni hired them, we did a coordinated design and development, including thinking about sustainability and involvement of people located in four different states, and built a rough version, and tested it for a year. Then we did a thorough evaluation of those who were working with it and using it, took the feedback, revised and tweaked, then set it to run for six years with only minor monthly maintenance of the content and a few responses for when an error email arrived in my inbox. That system was used by people all over the world. Quite amazing for the little amount of money that was spent on it. The point of all that reminiscing is that the idea was about all that existed. We were given the freedom to experiment for a reasonable period of time, let the system run its cycles for a while, then fixed the things that were problems and added enhancements based on what early users thought would be beneficial. We had a team of plumbers, not just one, and I was probably the Sergeant Major operating the switchboard to keep all the important folks talking to one another. BTW, I am not a software engineer, but I did have some pretty good instructional systems training that helped me think of complex interactions and keep the parts working toward a common goal. The people part often gets left out in IT projects, particularly the folks who are actually supposed to benefit from them. There is a certain project going on right now that shall remain nameless that has said to me they won't involve end users until the design is done. What the????? And they say they're use 'user centered design'!! oh, yeah?? Jan Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From rene.lk at libertus.net Mon Jan 14 22:59:19 2008 From: rene.lk at libertus.net (rene) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 21:59:19 +1000 Subject: [LINK] ePetitions, Oz Style? In-Reply-To: <478AC57E.6080002@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <2008114215919.240338@c990> On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:14:22 +1100, Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > Do I detect the hand of Senator the Hon. John Faulkner behind this? Equally as likely, Senator Conroy, imo. Conroy is of the opinion that a petition signed by 20,000 people "clearly shows that [the view expressed in the petition] is widely shared in the Australian community". and had been using petitions in his efforts to push the Coalition into mandating ISP level filtering. Conroy Media Statement - 19th October 2006 http://www.alp.org.au/media/1006/mscomit190.php ====== " In March, Kim Beazley announced that a Labor Government would require all Internet Service Providers to offer a 'clean feed ' internet service to all households, schools and public libraries that would block access to websites identified as containing c***d pornography, acts of extreme violence and x-rated material. In the Senate today, I tabled a petition signed by more than 20,000 Australians endorsing Labor's policy. .... The petition that I tabled today clearly shows that this view is widely shared in the Australian community. .... John Howard and Helen Coonan need to explain to Australian parents why they refuse to require ISPs to block access to these disturbing sites." ======== However, the 20,646 signatures were gathered through churches, as reported in The Australian on 23 Oct 2006 http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20626257-7583,00.html 'Last week, Kim Beazley conducted a meeting with the Australian Christian Lobby. An official note of the meeting recorded: "Approximately 50 delegates attended, including delegates from Catholic bishops, Coptic churches, Assemblies of God, Salvation Army, Hillsong. Fifteen Labor shadow ministers attended. Beazley was very well received. He also has an existing relationship with Jim Wallace (managing director of the Australian Christian Lobby and former senior SAS soldier). There was a lot of common ground between Labor and the Christian lobby. Labor shadow ministers discussed the work it has done, particularly in the areas of: schools funding, our internet clean-feed petition -- 20,000 petitions gathered through churches (via Stephen Conroy's office), ...' Since Nov 2004, there have been at least 35 petitions tabled calling for mandatory ISP-level filtering (APH parlinfo site seach) 24 of them are a petition form published by the Australian Family Association (which is actually a religious right organisation), a copy of which can be seen here: http://web.archive.org/web/20041018230827/http://www.family.org.au/Events/P etiition.htm Those petitions also want ISPs to be subject to "liability for harm caused to children by inadequate efforts to protect minors from exposure." The other 11 are copies of the 'clean feed' petition, as tabled by Conroy. While Conroy's had 20K signatures, the others about 'clean feed' had from 18 to 145. If Labor believes 20K signatures collected through churches justifies their policy, I'd be very worried about them paying even more attention to petitions than they already do. Irene From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Mon Jan 14 23:18:58 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 23:18:58 +1100 Subject: [LINK] ePetitions, Oz Style? In-Reply-To: <2008114215919.240338@c990> References: <478AC57E.6080002@iimetro.com.au> <2008114215919.240338@c990> Message-ID: <6hhft4$lbji6@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> At 10:59 PM 14/01/2008, rene wrote: >Internet Service Providers to offer a 'clean feed ' internet service to all >households, schools and public libraries that would block access to >websites identified as containing c***d pornography, acts of extreme >violence and x-rated material. Note: the fifth word: OFFER. That is 'opt IN', not opt out. If the government wants to do that withOUT increasing costs to those who choose NOT to opt in, then fine. Let those who want it, PAY for it. But I'm with you, Rene. Petitions are not referenda. Everyone should have the ability to indicate their views, not just special interests. Special interest politics and governance of any shade/colour is very dangerous. Surveying churches is no different from push polling. Jan Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From stil at stilgherrian.com Tue Jan 15 06:35:03 2008 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 06:35:03 +1100 Subject: [LINK] ePetitions, Oz Style? In-Reply-To: <2008114215919.240338@c990> Message-ID: On 14/1/08 10:59 PM, "rene" wrote: > Conroy is of the opinion that a petition signed by 20,000 people "clearly > shows that [the view expressed in the petition] is widely shared in the > Australian community". > and had been using petitions in his efforts to push the Coalition into > mandating ISP level filtering. [snip] ... and ... > If Labor believes 20K signatures collected through churches justifies their > policy, I'd be very worried about them paying even more attention to > petitions than they already do. The Australian article talks about petitions being overseen by a parliamentary committee. Mr Albanese said the petitions committee... will include six government members and four non-government members, http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23040476-5013871,00.html I for one hope that committee, in deciding whether or not to treat a petition with Great Seriousness, will apply some sort of analysis of the source of the petition so that petitions which obviously represent a narrow slice of the Australian demographic are given less weight than those which have garnered signatures from a broad cross-section. However how do you do that, if you don't have a demographic database of voters to look up? And how do you interpret the actual content of the petition in the context of how it might have been sold to the signers? I can imagine a petition being written in a dozen paragraphs of parliamentary legal jargon. The signature-collectors are gathered with a cry of "Fight crime on our streets, sign the petition!" And yet buried in the text is a proposal which, when translated out of that jargon, is about rounding up immigrants and jailing them without charge. Stil -- Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/ Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia mobile +61 407 623 600 fax +61 2 9516 5630 ABN 25 231 641 421 From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au Mon Jan 14 12:40:05 2008 From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 12:40:05 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Head of Microsoft Research India in Canberra, 16 January Message-ID: <20080114220019.A79E92A132@heartbeat2.messagingengine.com> Recommended: >INFOENG SEMINAR SERIES > >Building Computer Science Lab In India ? The Microsoft Research >India Experience >P. Anandan (Microsoft Research India) > >DATE: 2008-01-16 >TIME: 11:00:00 - 12:00:00 >LOCATION: RSISE Seminar Room, ground floor, building 115, cnr. North >and Daley Roads, ANU There is not a lot of details in the announcement , so I looked up some more: "Microsoft Research India currently focuses on these research areas. Cryptography, Security, and Algorithms Digital Geographics Mobility, Networks, and Systems Multilingual Systems Rigorous Software Engineering Technology for Emerging Markets Microsoft Research India's Advanced Development and Prototyping group works across research areas, focusing on technology transfer. ..." From: Microsoft Research India, Microsoft, 2008 "P. Anandan is the managing director of Microsoft Research India. Microsoft Research India, which set up its operations in January 2005, conducts basic research in computing and engineering sciences relevant to Microsoft Corp.'s business and the global IT community, with a special focus on technology for emerging markets and underserved communities, multilanguage computing systems, software productivity, sensor networks, cryptography, and geographical-information systems. Since June 1997, before being named managing director of Microsoft Research India, Anandan was a senior researcher at Microsoft Research headquarters in Redmond, Wash., where he built one of the world's strongest research teams in computer vision and video processing. During that time, he also served as an ambassador for the Microsoft Research University Relations program in India. Through repeat visits to India's leading institutions of higher learning, Anandan helped develop strong relationships between Indian universities and Microsoft Research. He has also represented Microsoft in meetings with the government of India to emphasize the company's commitment to research and development. Anandan continues Microsoft Research's ongoing relationships with the government and academic communities in his new role. ..." From: P. Anandan, Press Kit, Microsoft, 2008 For my own impressions of IT in India, see: India: the EU of Asia. . I had the pleasure of being able to visit Microsoft's Cambridge Research Lab in the UK in 2004. At that time some of the lab staff were worried about competition from Asia. It will be interesting to hear of the Indian equivalent . Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington at tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 http://www.tomw.net.au/ Adjunct Senior Lecturer, ANU From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au Mon Jan 14 15:45:20 2008 From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:45:20 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Where Are the Software Engineers of Tomorrow? In-Reply-To: <4789AA83.80707@lockstep.com.au> References: <47836311.20709@iimetro.com.au> <47860809.3010703@internode.on.net> <4786AC42.2030208@iimetro.com.au> <47893A69.2050208@canb.auug.org.au> <20080113020256.GA31047@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> <478992F4.5020004@canb.auug.org.au> <4789AA83.80707@lockstep.com.au> Message-ID: <20080114220237.DBBFC2A12A@heartbeat2.messagingengine.com> At 05:06 PM 13/01/2008, Stephen Wilson wrote: >... I remember a year or two when the ACS proposed enhancing the >professionalism of the IT sector. The suggestions floated included >an continuing education and a code of conduct. Pretty innocuous >stuff, and way, way short of regulation. ... The ACS is pushing along that path. However, "IT" is a very broad discipline. It can be very difficult to find what the common things everyone needs to know are. The ACS is aiming to have a revised Core Body of Knowledge (CBOK) by June 2008: . There is ACS and government sponsored research being done on what a code of conduct should be and how to get people to do it . Surprisingly there is little research in this area; most professional bodies just impose a code on members and then try and enforce it: they do not check to see if the code is something the members can or will do. There is a readable series of articles about this in Information Ages magazine, which I tell the ANU IT students about: . With the continuing education, ACS uses much the same approach as other bodies. Members are encouraged to do training to get their "points". This doesn't have to be ACS provided training, just something relevant. There is also the Computer Professional Education Program, which is a post graduate online training program run by ACS (using the Australian developed Moodle software): . The ACS is also working with other similar bodies around the world to do common standards for IT professionals: . Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington at tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 http://www.tomw.net.au/ Adjunct Senior Lecturer, ANU From darrell.burkey at anu.edu.au Tue Jan 15 09:35:56 2008 From: darrell.burkey at anu.edu.au (Darrell Burkey) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 09:35:56 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Non-profit group seeking management assistance Message-ID: <1200350156.870.34.camel@bippo> Based on my long-time lurking here at the Link Institute, I think some of you might be interested in helping out a non-profit group that I work with. Computing Assistance Support & Education (http://www.case.org.au) is looking for a few mover and shakers to help us grow the organisation so that we may address increasing interest in the services we provide to the community sector. If you have experience in this area and are interested in being involved with a unique and very effective non-profit community organisation, please have a look at our web site for an overview of our goals and activities. If that information interests you to the point where you would consider becoming involved as a member of our Management Committee (or would like to provide other assistance), let me know by return email - president at case.org.au. I'll send you more specific information regarding what we are looking for and what our plans are. Then it gets really interesting. :-) Cheers. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Darrell Burkey, President - 0408 622 647 Computing Assistance Support & Edcuation Inc http://www.case.org.au - info at case.org.au From jwhit at janwhitaker.com Tue Jan 15 09:38:17 2008 From: jwhit at janwhitaker.com (Jan Whitaker) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 09:38:17 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: 'UK considers implanting RFID tags into prisoners' Message-ID: <6hhft4$lim8r@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> spotted by Roger: >UK considers RFID tags for prisoners >Porridge with chips >Iain Thomson, vnunet.com >14 Jan 2008 >http://www.itweek.co.uk/vnunet/news/2207145/government-considers-rfid-tags > >The UK government is considering implanting prisoners with RFID tags >containing data on identity, address and criminal record. > >The RFID tags, about the size of two grains of rice, would be >injected under the skin and could be scanned by a reader. > >There are also proposals to link the RFID tags to a larger GPS >device to monitor the location of high risk prisoners. > >"We have wanted to take advantage of this technology for several >years because it seems a sensible solution to the problems we are >facing in this area, " a senior minister told the Independent on Sunday. > >"We have looked at it and gone back to it and worried about the >practicalities and the ethics. But, when you look at the challenges >facing the criminal justice system, its time has come." > >The Ministry of Justice has confirmed that it is considering the >proposal as part of plans to modernise the prison system. > >Human rights groups have pounced on the proposal, however, >describing it as "degrading". > >Shami Chakrabarti, director of Liberty, said: "If the Home Office >does not understand why implanting a chip in someone is worse than >an ankle bracelet, they do not need a human-rights lawyer they need >a common-sense bypass. > >"Degrading offenders in this way will do nothing for their >rehabilitation and nothing for our safety, as some will inevitably >find a way round this new technology." > >The RFID proposals are designed to address problems with the >existing tagging system which uses a transmitter strapped to the ankle. > >Over 2,000 of the 17,000 offenders fitted with the ankle tags have >escaped by tampering with, or simply cutting off, the device. > >Curfew breaches for the past two years are up 283 per cent, and >further development of the system has been halted until these >problems can be sorted out. > >Harry Fletcher, assistant general secretary of the National >Association of Probation Officers, stated that the RFID proposal >would be unhelpful. > >"This is the sort of daft idea that comes up from the department >every now and then, but tagging people in the same way we tag our >pets cannot be the way ahead," he said. > >"Treating people like pieces of meat does not seem to represent an >improvement in the system, which works well enough as it is. > >"Knowing where offenders like paedophiles are does not mean you know >what they are doing." > >The UK has been moving faster than most in the use of RFID, >including plans to tag exam papers. > >Similar schemes in the US have been banned, and there are fears >about the health risks and security of RFID implants. Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From gramadan at umd.com.au Tue Jan 15 10:39:16 2008 From: gramadan at umd.com.au (Geoffrey Ramadan) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:39:16 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: 'UK considers implanting RFID tags into prisoners' In-Reply-To: <6hhft4$lim8r@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> References: <6hhft4$lim8r@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <478BF2A4.6030003@umd.com.au> Excluding the ethics of this, I don't see a lot of value in this idea. The RFID tag is very short range. You will need another device to read this tag and connect to a GPS system or another transponder (and battery). i.e. a bracelet. .... just stick to the bracelet. I also suspect the tag could easily be removed. Regards Geoffrey Ramadan, B.E.(Elec) Chairman, Automatic Data Capture Australia (www.adca.com.au) and Managing Director, Unique Micro Design (www.umd.com.au) Jan Whitaker wrote: > spotted by Roger: > >> UK considers RFID tags for prisoners >> Porridge with chips >> Iain Thomson, vnunet.com >> 14 Jan 2008 >> http://www.itweek.co.uk/vnunet/news/2207145/government-considers-rfid-tags >> >> >> The UK government is considering implanting prisoners with RFID tags >> containing data on identity, address and criminal record. >> >> The RFID tags, about the size of two grains of rice, would be injected >> under the skin and could be scanned by a reader. >> >> There are also proposals to link the RFID tags to a larger GPS device >> to monitor the location of high risk prisoners. >> >> "We have wanted to take advantage of this technology for several years >> because it seems a sensible solution to the problems we are facing in >> this area, " a senior minister told the Independent on Sunday. >> >> "We have looked at it and gone back to it and worried about the >> practicalities and the ethics. But, when you look at the challenges >> facing the criminal justice system, its time has come." >> >> The Ministry of Justice has confirmed that it is considering the >> proposal as part of plans to modernise the prison system. >> >> Human rights groups have pounced on the proposal, however, describing >> it as "degrading". >> >> Shami Chakrabarti, director of Liberty, said: "If the Home Office does >> not understand why implanting a chip in someone is worse than an ankle >> bracelet, they do not need a human-rights lawyer they need a >> common-sense bypass. >> >> "Degrading offenders in this way will do nothing for their >> rehabilitation and nothing for our safety, as some will inevitably >> find a way round this new technology." >> >> The RFID proposals are designed to address problems with the existing >> tagging system which uses a transmitter strapped to the ankle. >> >> Over 2,000 of the 17,000 offenders fitted with the ankle tags have >> escaped by tampering with, or simply cutting off, the device. >> >> Curfew breaches for the past two years are up 283 per cent, and >> further development of the system has been halted until these problems >> can be sorted out. >> >> Harry Fletcher, assistant general secretary of the National >> Association of Probation Officers, stated that the RFID proposal would >> be unhelpful. >> >> "This is the sort of daft idea that comes up from the department every >> now and then, but tagging people in the same way we tag our pets >> cannot be the way ahead," he said. >> >> "Treating people like pieces of meat does not seem to represent an >> improvement in the system, which works well enough as it is. >> >> "Knowing where offenders like paedophiles are does not mean you know >> what they are doing." >> >> The UK has been moving faster than most in the use of RFID, including >> plans to tag exam papers. >> >> Similar schemes in the US have been banned, and there are fears about >> the health risks and security of RFID implants. > > Jan Whitaker > JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria > jwhit at janwhitaker.com > business: http://www.janwhitaker.com > personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ > commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ > > Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim > Sollisch, Sept, 2007 > 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there > is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 > _ __________________ _ > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link at mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link From darrell.burkey at anu.edu.au Tue Jan 15 10:46:27 2008 From: darrell.burkey at anu.edu.au (Darrell Burkey) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:46:27 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Non-profit group seeking management assistance In-Reply-To: <6hhft4$ljg6o@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> References: <1200350156.870.34.camel@bippo> <6hhft4$ljg6o@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <1200354387.870.49.camel@bippo> Good points, thanks. CASE was formed to assist Australian non-profit groups nationally. We have a few members outside the ACT but have kept low key for ten years as to not over-commit and to ensure the services are best-practice. But even low key has been flat out for us. Hence our call to take the organisation to the next level by looking for people who have 'the right stuff'. The organisation was founded here in Canberra therefore that's where the majority of our members are and where our office is. Which consists of a small office located within Volunteering ACT premises in the Labor Club Community Chambers, Belconnen. I'll give some more thought on how we can make this clearer on the home page. On Tue, 2008-01-15 at 10:17, Jan Whitaker wrote: > Hi, Darrell. Good luck with the venture. One thing that I had to > search for was your location. I take it from what I discovered in the > 'about' section that you're all in Canberra. And if that is your > coverage area for your work, it would be helpful to put that > somewhere on the homepage, no? At first I thought you were in Sydney > because orgs there always forget to identify their location because > it is of course the centre of the world! LOL > > Take care, > Jan -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Darrell Burkey From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Tue Jan 15 11:44:21 2008 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 11:44:21 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: The Netscape Story: From Mosaic to Mozilla References: <871B1597F6E4F04B85465F9C7E706C5002B08D5B@CASEVS03.cas.anu.edu.au> Message-ID: <0660A997-F79E-4471-BA2D-2037020F0D5C@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Linkers Sent to me by Colin Steele. Sic transit gloria mundi and it's only Tuesday... Tony Begin forwarded message: > ! > > The Netscape Story: From Mosaic to Mozilla > December 31, 2007 > > Looking back and looking forward. > Posted by: Glyn Moody > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > -------- > > It seems appropriate that on the last day of the year I should be > writing about the end of an era. The news that AOL is ceasing to > support > its Netscape browsers is not only that, it is the end of a story that > encompassed just about every major trend in the rise of the > Internet as > a mass medium, and that was crucially important for free software. > > Netscape Navigator was originally called Mosaic Netscape, a > reference to > the first popular browser, Mosaic, which came from National Center for > Supercomputing Applications (NCSA) at the University of Illinois, > Urbana-Champaign. That had been written by a group of coders led by > Marc > Andreessen, who later teamed up with one of the founders of Silicon > Graphics, Jim Barksdale, to set up Mosaic Communications. Not > surprisingly, this name didn't go down to well with the University of > Illinois, who threatened the company with legal action. The latter > backed down, and changed its name, as well as that of its browser. > > To give an idea of the state of Web technology when Netscape released > the first beta of its browser in October 1994, here's some of the > things > that I noted in a piece I wrote at the time: > > as well as enabling you to read a document while several graphical > images are loaded simultaneously, the program lets you break off the > download of a page cleanly to follow a link elsewhere. You can also > save > viewed documents straight to disc (before you often had to reload), > and > the Bookmarks feature allows favourite places to be saved to be edited > far more easily. > > But even more significant than what were important technical > advances at > the time, there were a couple of other aspects whose revolutionary > nature are probably hard for us to appreciate today. > > First, the browser proclaimed itself as "performance optimized for > 14.4 > modems", referring to the typical download speeds of 14.4 kbit/s at > that > time. This was truly a breakthrough, because the earlier Mosaic had > been > designed with relatively high-speed university connections in mind, > since browsers were almost exclusively found and used in an academic > setting. Netscape Navigator, by contrast, was aimed squarely at > ordinary > users with PCs and a dial-up Internet connection. It was Netscape > Navigator, then, that turned the Internet from an research tool into a > mass medium. > > Secondly, even though Netscape was a company, Netscape Navigator was > freely available. It was therefore one of the first examples of viral > distribution, whereby people were encouraged to download a program and > pass it on to their friends and colleagues. Netscape was able to do > this > because it hoped thereby to establish its browser as the de facto > standard for both ordinary and business users, and then to sell > support > to the latter. > > In other words, Netscape was one of the first to adopt on a massive > scale the business model used today by most open source companies: > give > away the code, and make money on services. Equally presciently, > Netscape > released a beta, and invited anyone to submit bug reports - again, a > technique straight out of the free software world, but almost unheard > for commercial software houses. > > Netscape also hoped that by establishing standards with its > browser, it > could make a lot of money by selling its Netsite Web server, initially > for a cool $5000 each. And for a while, it did. It became the first > major Internet company, whose August 1995 IPO - the most successful in > history - saw the 18-month old startup valued at $3 billion, and > fuelled > much of the dotcom madness that followed. Moreover, the company's > homepage, at Netscape.com, became the centre of the Internet: every > day, > millions of people went there not just to find out about Netscape and > its latest moves, but to follow what was happening online. Netscape > not > only created the Internet as a mass medium, for a year or two it > was the > undisputed master of that new universe. > > But then the company began to stumble. The rise of of the free Apache > Web server, and the fact that Microsoft was giving away its own > Internet > Information Server (IIS) with Windows NT, severely stunted sales of > Netscape's overpriced servers. Things went from bad to worse when > Microsoft finally woke up to the importance of the Internet (not least > because of Netscape's IPO) and began aggressively pushing its Internet > Explorer browser (ironically also based on the original NCSA Mosaic > code, as the About box informs us to this day), which was free for > everyone, not just end-users, until Netscape began to lose its > critically-important market dominance. > > Desperate situations call for desperate measures, and in this case it > was decided to release most of the Netscape Navigator code as open > source (not all, since some was licensed from other parties). One > of the > people who made that happen at Netscape, Eric Hahn, explained to me > when > I was writing my history of free software, Rebel Code, how he used to > tell a story to explain to others within the company why he was > advocating this move: > > Two guys go out camping, and they're barefoot, and they run into a > bear. > And one guy stops and puts on his sneakers. And the other guy looks at > him and goes: What are you doing? You can't possibly outrun a bear. > And > the first person says: I don't have to outrun the bear, I just have to > outrun you. > > Open sourcing the Navigator code didn't need to be the absolute best > solution for Netscape, just better than its current failing strategy. > > Netscape's announcement on 22 January 1998 that it was making the > source > code for its next-generation browser freely available stunned the > computing world: until then, free software had been something that was > strictly for hackers; the idea that an iconic company like Netscape > could make the move was inconceivable until then. Netscape's > high-profile decision to bet on free software probably did more to > legitimise the use of this hitherto exotic beast within corporates > more > than anything else before. > > Although Netscape released the code on 31 March 1998, the new Mozilla, > as it was called, soon proved an object lesson in how not to open > source > proprietary code. Jamie Zawinski, another of the key figures in > opening > up Netscape Navigator, and the person who had come up with the Mozilla > name back in 1994 - a combination of the original "Mosaic" and > Godzilla > - wrote in his resignation letter when he left AOL, which had recently > bought Netscape in November 1998: > > Open source does work, but it is most definitely not a panacea. If > there's a cautionary tale here, it is that you can't take a dying > project, sprinkle it with the magic pixie dust of "open source," and > have everything magically work out. Software is hard. The issues > aren't > that simple. > > The "hard" nature of software meant that the impact of Mozilla was > limited in its first few years of existence. Its most immediate > influence was probably thanks to the licence it adopted. The obvious > candidate, the GNU GPL, was not an option because of the nature of the > code, with some of it licensed from third parties. Instead, Mozilla's > Chief Lizard Wrangler, Mitchell Baker, created a new free software > licence, the Mozilla Public Licence, which was employed along with the > proprietary Netscape Public Licence, in an novel dual-licensing > approach > that soon became very popular with other projects, especially the > later > generation of open source enterprise companies. > > But once again, there was an important lesson to be learned in the > further evolution of Netscape and its offshoot, Mozilla. While the > Mozilla browser itself made slow but steady progress, it became > increasingly bloated. Thanks to one of the key properties of open > source, a group of young hackers were able to fork some of the code to > create a sleeker version that eventually turned into the Firefox > project > (originally called Phoenix, with obvious symbolism, and then Firebird, > both names proved difficult because of clashes with other products and > projects). With two competing codebases, Darwinian selection took over > as more and more users switched to Firefox. > > Interestingly, Netscape's browser still existed during this period, > basing itself on Mozilla's code. But it was even less satisfactory > than > Mozilla's, an important factor in the decision more or less to start > again with Firefox, as one of the latter's founders, Asa Dotzler, has > explained: > > One of the primary reasons that Firefox exists is because a few > Netscape > employees working on the Mozilla project realized back in 2001 and > 2002 > that Netscape was incapable of, or more precisely, unwilling to, > make a > really great browser. The reason was pretty simple -- their > motivation. > > Netscape's only real revenue back then was from advertising at > their web > properties (netscape.com, Netscape webmail, etc.) and the big reason > they were allowed by AOL to continue building a browser was to drive > traffic to those web properties. As a matter of fact, the team making > the browser at Netscape reported into the AOL-TW group that owned > those > web properties. > > What this makes plain is that a software company must create a program > that serves its users' needs, not its own - a lesson that Netscape > started forgetting almost as soon as it had learned it back in 1994. > Firefox, by contrast, has focussed on what users want - and don't > want. > It began by throwing away as much of Mozilla's unnecessary elements as > possible, and stripping it down to essentials. It mobilised users not > just for testing the code, but for a new kind of open source > marketing, > notably through the SpreadFirefox site and its high-profile campaigns, > like the double-page advertisement in The New York Times. > > The steady rise of Firefox's market share - first, a few percent, then > 10%, and now touching 40% in some parts of the world - had a major > knock-on effect. Through an agreement with Google that makes the > latter's search engine the default home page when the program is > installed, and the first option for the search engine box in Firefox, > the parent organisation, Mozilla Foundation, is receiving tens of > millions of dollars each year in fees. As a result, Mozilla has turned > from a struggling project into an incredibly powerful force within > open > source. > > Thanks to this new-found wealth, largely a by-product of Google's > hugely-successful ad-based business model, Mozilla has the luxury of > being able to widen of its ambitions far beyond simply creating a cool > browser. For example, two recent announcements from Mozilla labs are > explicitly about blurring the line between traditional desktop and the > new, browser-based Web applications. The first is Prism: > > Personal computing is currently in a state of transition. While > traditionally users have interacted mostly with desktop applications, > more and more of them are using web applications. But the latter often > fit awkwardly into the document-centric interface of web browsers. And > they are surrounded with controls-like back and forward buttons and a > location bar-that have nothing to do with interacting with the > application itself. > > Mozilla Labs is launching a series of experiments to bridge the divide > in the user experience between web applications and desktop apps > and to > explore new usability models as the line between traditional > desktop and > new web applications continues to blur. > > The second is Weave: > > As the Web continues to evolve and more of our lives move online, we > believe that Web browsers like Firefox can and should do more to > broker > rich experiences while increasing user control over their data and > personal information. > > One important area for exploration is the blending of the desktop and > the Web through deeper integration of the browser with online > services. > > We're now launching a new project within Mozilla Labs to formally > explore this integration. This project will be known as Weave and it > will focus on finding ways to enhance the Firefox user experience, > increase user control over personal information, and provide new > opportunities for developers to build innovative online experiences. > > These are both about replacing the current desktop environment with a > Web-based approach - or, more bluntly, to make underlying operating > systems (like Windows) irrelevant, and turning Firefox itself into the > platform. > > Interestingly, it was Netscape's attempt to create something it called > the "Webtop" - a Net-based layer above the desktop - that helped rouse > Microsoft from its Internet slumbers, and led, ultimately, to > Netscape's > destruction. Now, though, things are rather different. Mozilla is > not a > company, and it sells no products. As such, it is not possible for > Microsoft to undermine it by giving away its own products, nor can it > make the problem go away by simply buying its rival and closing it > down. > > > This, then, the biggest difference between Netscape's Mosaic, and > today's Mozilla Firefox. The former was proprietary and vulnerable, > while the latter is free and immune to the forces that led to > Netscape's > sale in 1998, its rapidly dwindling importance in the online world > thereafter, and ultimately to the recent coup de grace administered to > the once great Netscape Navigator. Mosaic may be well and truly dead, > but Netscape's dinosaur-like mascot and the code that bears its name > live on. > > phone : 02 6241 7659 mobile: 04 1242 0397 -- ~| mailto: tony at Tony-Barry.emu.id.au -- \@ or tony.barry at alianet.alia.org.au -- _\\/\% http://tony-barry.emu.id.au GT3 ____(*)__(*)___ Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Restore From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Tue Jan 15 11:53:25 2008 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 11:53:25 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Contract signed for national health ID system References: Message-ID: Begin forwarded message: > > From: Adam Pointon > Date: 14 January 2008 2:25:18 PM > To: link > Subject: Re: [LINK] Contract signed for national health ID system > > >>> The new Victorian ticketing system is based on a MIFARE payment >>> technology. > > > From: Jan Krissler > Organization: Chaos Computer Club > Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:20:45 +0100 > > Hi. > > Maybe some of you are using Mifare based RFID systems for payment > or access > controll. you should start to migrate soon. As shown on the 24th chaos > communication congress > > http://berlin.ccc.de/~24c3_torrents/24c3-2378-en- > mifare_security.mkv.torrent > > the proprietary crypto algorithm used in mifare is not a secret > anymore. > We havnt disclosed it yet but we will as soon as a practical > implemetation > is done. > > > > > From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Tue Jan 15 11:54:24 2008 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 11:54:24 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Seeking management assistance for non-profit organisation References: Message-ID: <19B3832E-04DD-448F-BC1B-3D94ADB5EE51@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Begin forwarded message: > > The attached message has been automatically discarded. > From: "Darrell Burkey" > Date: 14 January 2008 3:16:49 PM > To: link at anu.edu.au > Subject: Seeking management assistance for non-profit organisation > Reply-To: president at case.org.au > > > Based on my long-time lurking here at the Link Institute, I think > some of > you might be interested in helping out a non-profit group that I work > with. So pardon the ad but it's for a good cause. Gee, this almost > sounds > like spam. I may have to work on my approach a bit. Should I offer > free > steak knives if you order now? Of course, operators are standing by. > > Computing Assistance Support & Education (http://www.case.org.au) is > looking for a few mover and shakers to help us grow the > organisation. And > yes, that does mean people to help us obtain the resources we need > to make > our services available to a much larger membership than we > currently have. > > If you have experience in this area and are interested in being > involved > with a unique and very effective non-profit community organisation, > please > have a look at our web site for an overview of our goals and > activities. > If that information interests you to the point where you would > consider > becoming involved as a member of our management committee (or would > like > to provide other assistance/advice), let me know by return email. > I'll > send you more specific information regarding what we are looking > for and > what our plans are. > > Then it gets really interesting. :-) > > Cheers. > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Darrell D. Burkey, President - 0408 622 647 > Computing Assistance Support & Education Inc > http://www.case.org.au > > > From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Tue Jan 15 11:55:03 2008 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 11:55:03 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Boeing works to protect Dreamliner from hackers References: Message-ID: Begin forwarded message: > > From: Scott Howard > Date: 14 January 2008 10:24:37 PM > To: Brendan Scott > Cc: Link list > Subject: Re: [LINK] Boeing works to protect Dreamliner from hackers > > > Brendan Scott wrote: >>> Boeing works to protect Dreamliner from hackers >>> >> air gap? >> > > Boeing has confirmed that this is exactly what they have. There is > no connection between the passenger networks and the light computers. > > Of course there's a number of existing planes that have these types > of systems - it's because it's a new type of plane, an thus needs > to go through full approval, that the FAA can even make Boeing > answer such questions. > > Scott > > phone : 02 6241 7659 mobile: 04 1242 0397 -- ~| mailto: tony at Tony-Barry.emu.id.au -- \@ or tony.barry at alianet.alia.org.au -- _\\/\% http://tony-barry.emu.id.au GT3 ____(*)__(*)___ Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Restore From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Tue Jan 15 11:59:46 2008 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 11:59:46 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Use the right email address when posting to link Message-ID: Linkers A reminder - if you post to link using a different email address that the one with which you are subscribed under your email will bounce to me and not go to the list unless I forward it. Very occasionally, depending on content, my spam trap, SpamSieve, might try and discard it. A lot of spam gets sent to link, bounces to me, and gets filtered out this way so I don't need to look at it. Tony phone : 02 6241 7659 mobile: 04 1242 0397 -- ~| mailto: tony at Tony-Barry.emu.id.au -- \@ or tony.barry at alianet.alia.org.au -- _\\/\% http://tony-barry.emu.id.au GT3 ____(*)__(*)___ Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Restore From cas at taz.net.au Tue Jan 15 12:50:56 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:50:56 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Use the right email address when posting to link In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080115015056.GE6828@taz.net.au> On Tue, Jan 15, 2008 at 11:59:46AM +1100, Antony Barry wrote: > Linkers > > A reminder - if you post to link using a different email address that the > one with which you are subscribed under your email will bounce to me and > not go to the list unless I forward it. also, if you often need to post to link from a different address, mailman lets you subscribe with the other address and turn mail delivery off for that address. see: http://wiki.list.org/display/DOC/Mailman+2.1+Members+Manual#Mailman2.1MembersManual-7.1HowdoIturnmaildeliveryonoroff%3F%28deliveryoption%29 craig -- craig sanders Pilots should avoid using illegal drugs. -- AOPA's Pilot's Handbook, 1988 From link at todd.inoz.com Tue Jan 15 12:04:36 2008 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:04:36 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: 'UK considers implanting RFID tags into prisoners' In-Reply-To: <6hhft4$lim8r@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> References: <6hhft4$lim8r@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <200801150244.m0F2i3gR004958@ah.net> At 09:38 15/01/2008, Jan Whitaker wrote: >>There are also proposals to link the RFID tags to a larger GPS >>device to monitor the location of high risk prisoners. Didn't know there were GPS RX's that small! >>Shami Chakrabarti, director of Liberty, said: "If the Home Office >>does not understand why implanting a chip in someone is worse than >>an ankle bracelet, they do not need a human-rights lawyer they need >>a common-sense bypass. Common Sense? >>"Degrading offenders in this way will do nothing for their >>rehabilitation and nothing for our safety, as some will inevitably >>find a way round this new technology." Swap chips with a lesser prisoner? >>The RFID proposals are designed to address problems with the >>existing tagging system which uses a transmitter strapped to the ankle. Which is bigger, and more visible and actually transmits over a fair distance. >>Over 2,000 of the 17,000 offenders fitted with the ankle tags have >>escaped by tampering with, or simply cutting off, the device. And these prisoners won't have any desire to rip two grains of rice from their bodies with a blunt instrument? Haven't we seen in Hollywood that where fingers prints and retinas are used as a means of security ID, criminals have no fear of chopping off the fingers or ripping out the eyes. I guess the innocent victims of false conviction will be the ones that don't play hacker - literally. >>Curfew breaches for the past two years are up 283 per cent, and >>further development of the system has been halted until these >>problems can be sorted out. Sounds like a human administrative issue rather than an electronic tagging issue. >>Harry Fletcher, assistant general secretary of the National >>Association of Probation Officers, stated that the RFID proposal >>would be unhelpful. Cause they are too short range? >>"This is the sort of daft idea that comes up from the department >>every now and then, but tagging people in the same way we tag our >>pets cannot be the way ahead," he said. Yes I can see it now. Black Van drives down the road - TV Detector Anther Black Van drives down the road - Pet RFID Detector Another Black Van drives down the road - Fashion RFID detector Another black van drives down the road - Criminal Detector Another Black Van Drives down the road - Negligent Parent Detector Another Black Van drives down the road - Porn Detector >>"Knowing where offenders like paedophiles are does not mean you >>know what they are doing." Errr, if they area paedophile, you can be pretty sure you know what they are doing, especially if they are an OFFENDER. From brd at iimetro.com.au Tue Jan 15 17:34:24 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 17:34:24 +1100 Subject: [LINK] US drafting plan to allow government access to any email or Web search Message-ID: <478C53F0.3080401@iimetro.com.au> US drafting plan to allow government access to any email or Web search Monday January 14, 2008 http://rawstory.com/news/2007/US_drafting_plan_to_allow_government_0114.html National Intelligence Director Mike McConnell is drawing up plans for cyberspace spying that would make the current debate on warrantless wiretaps look like a "walk in the park," according to an interview published in the New Yorker's print edition today. Debate on the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act ?will be a walk in the park compared to this,? McConnell said. ?this is going to be a goat rope on the Hill. My prediction is that we?re going to screw around with this until something horrendous happens.? The article, which profiles the 65-year-old former admiral appointed by President George W. Bush in January 2007 to oversee all of America's intelligence agencies, was not published on the New Yorker's Web site. McConnell is developing a Cyber-Security Policy, still in the draft stage, which will closely police Internet activity. "Ed Giorgio, who is working with McConnell on the plan, said that would mean giving the government the autority to examine the content of any e-mail, file transfer or Web search," author Lawrence Wright pens. ?Google has records that could help in a cyber-investigation, he said," Wright adds. "Giorgio warned me, 'We have a saying in this business: ?Privacy and security are a zero-sum game.'" A zero-sum game is one in which gains by one side come at the expense of the other. In other words -- McConnell's aide believes greater security can only come at privacy's expense. McConnell has been an advocate for computer-network defense, which has previously not been the province of any intelligence agency. According to a 2007 conversation in the Oval Office, McConnell told President Bush, ?If the 9/11 perpetrators had focused on a single US bank through cyber-attack and it had been successful, it would have an order of magnitude greater impact on the US economy.? Bush turned to Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson, asking him if it was true; Paulson said that it was. Bush then asked to McConnell to come up with a network security strategy. "One proposal of McConnell?s Cyber-Security Policy, which is still in the draft stage, is to reduce the access points between government computers and the Internet from two thousand to fifty," Wright notes. "He claimed that cyber-theft account for as much as a hundred billion dollars in annual losses to the American economy. 'The real problem is the perpetrator who doesn?t care about stealing?he just wants to destroy.'" The infrastructure to tap into Americans' email and web search history may already be in place. In November, a former technician at AT&T alleged that the telecom forwarded virtually all of its Internet traffic into a "secret room" to facilitate government spying. Whistleblower Mark Klein said that a copy of all Internet traffic passing over AT&T lines was copied into a locked room at the company's San Francisco office -- to which only employees with National Security Agency clearance had access -- via a cable splitting device. "My job was to connect circuits into the splitter device which was hard-wired to the secret room," Klein. said "And effectively, the splitter copied the entire data stream of those Internet cables into the secret room -- and we're talking about phone conversations, email web browsing, everything that goes across the Internet." "As a technician, I had the engineering wiring documents, which told me how the splitter was wired to the secret room," Klein continued. "And so I know that whatever went across those cables was copied and the entire data stream was copied." According to Klein, that information included Internet activity about Americans. "We're talking about domestic traffic as well as international traffic," Klein said. Previous Bush administration claims that only international communications were being intercepted aren't accurate, he added. "I know the physical equipment, and I know that statement is not true," he added. "It involves millions of communications, a lot of it domestic communications that they're copying wholesale." -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From stephen at melbpc.org.au Wed Jan 16 00:03:39 2008 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen at melbpc.org.au) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 13:03:39 GMT Subject: [LINK] CIDOC Conceptual Reference Model Message-ID: <20080115130339.29BE869A7@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> > Subject: DCC Tutorial: The CIDOC Conceptual Reference Model > - A New Standard for Knowledge Sharing > Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:08:46 +0000 > From: Joy Davidson > To:Interoperability issues across domains INTEROPERABILITY at JISCMAIL.AC.UK DCC Tutorial: The CIDOC Conceptual Reference Model - A New Standard for Knowledge Sharing 29/01/2008 University of Glasgow The DCC and FORTH are delighted to announce that they will be delivering a joint one-day tutorial on the CIDOC Conceptual Reference Model. This tutorial will introduce the audience to the CIDOC Conceptual Reference Model, a core ontology and ISO standard (ISO 21127) for the semantic integration of cultural information with library, archive and other information. The CIDOC CRM concentrates on the definition of relationships, rather than terminology, in order to mediate between heterogeneous database schemata and metadata structures. This led to a compact model of 80 classes and 130 relationships, easy to comprehend and suitable to serve as a basis for mediation of cultural and library information and thereby provide the semantic 'glue' needed to transform today's disparate, localised information sources into a coherent and valuable global resource. It comprises the concepts characteristic for data structures employed by most museum, archive and library documentation. Its central idea is the explicit modelling of events, both for the representation of metadata, such as creation, publication, and use, as well as for content summarization and the creation of integrated knowledge bases. It is not prescriptive, but provides a framework to describe common high-level semantics that allow for information integration at the schema level for a wide area of domains. The CIDOC CRM, as an effort of the museums community, is paralleled by the Functional Requirements for Bibliographic Records (FRBR) by IFLA for the librarians community. Both Working Groups have come together since 2003 and started to develop a common harmonized model. The first draft version is now available as a compatible extension of the CRM, the ooFRBR, covering equally libraries and museums. The tutorial aims at rendering the necessary knowledge to understand the potential of applying the CRM - where it can be useful and what the major technical issues of an application are. It will present an overview of the concepts and relationships covered by the CRM. As an example of a simple application, it will present the CRM Core Metadata Element Set, a minimal metadata schema of about 20 elements, still compatible with the CRM, and demonstrate how even this simple schema can be used to create large networks of integrated knowledge about physical and digital objects, persons, places and events. As an example of a simple compatible extension, it will present the core model of digitization processes used in the CASPAR project to describe digital provenance. In part two, the tutorial will present in detail the draft ooFRBR Model. This model describes in detail the intellectual creation process from the first conception to the publishing in industrial form such as books or electronically. It should be considered equally interesting for the digital libraries community, and it is a fine example of the extensibility of the CRM for dedicated domains. There will be enough time for questions and discussion. Presenter: Martin Doerr, Information Systems Lab, Institute of Computer Science, Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH), Vassilika Vouton. Target audience: Ontology experts, digital library designers, data warehouse designers, system integrators, portal designers that work in the wider area of cultural and library information, but also IT-Staff of libraries, museums and archives, vendors of cultural and other information systems. Basic knowledge of object-oriented data models is required. Duration: Part one: 3 hours Part two: 1.5 hours Cost: ?50 for DCC Associate Network members and ?75 for non members. If you are interested in taking part, please email british.editor at erpanet.org. Please feel free to forward this message on to any interested parties. Best regards, Joy Davidson DCC Training Coordinator and ERPANET British Editor Humanities Advanced Technology and Information Institute (HATII) George Service House, 11 University Gardens, University of Glasgow Glasgow G12 8QJ Scotland Tel: +44(0)141 330 8592 Fax: +44(0)141 330 3788 http://www.dcc.ac.uk http://www.digitalpreservationeurope.eu british.editor at erpanet.org -- Cheers CIDOC Stephen Loosley Victoria, Australia From brd at iimetro.com.au Wed Jan 16 08:06:21 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 08:06:21 +1100 Subject: [LINK] [UK] Parliament ponders the weight of e-petitions Message-ID: <478D204D.4040403@iimetro.com.au> Parliament ponders the weight of e-petitions Westminster goes all Web 2.0 By John Oates The Register Tuesday 15th January 2008 15:48 GMT http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/01/15/econsultation_epetitions_parliament/ A House of Commons committee meets tomorrow to gather evidence on the wisdom of giving electronic petitions the same status as paper petitions. The House of Commons Procedure Committee will gather to hear evidence tomorrow afternoon from Tom Steinberg, founder of mySociety and the man behind the Prime Minister's e-petitions site, and digital media adviser Tom Loosemore. A further evidence session will take place on 30 January. In line with the spirit of the inquiry, the committee has set up an e-consultation on the issue of e-petitions, though to date the public doesn't seem to have leapt into this brave new world. At the time of writing there are a paltry nine posts on three subjects. One poster complains about their experience of the e-petitions run by the Prime Minister's office. Poster "Perspective Vortex" said that at the end of the consultation period the government emailed everyone who had signed up opposing replacement of Trident nuclear missiles with a message in support of government policy. The poster explained: "In essence, my petition was used to create a mailing list to assist the government in lobbying the public; I consider myself to have been duped into assisting interest groups opposed to my petition... I consider the e-petitioning system to be a mendacious gimmick with the overall effect of generating political disengagement and cynicism." 10 Downing Street's e-petitions site launched in November 2006 and is still in beta, but has at least gained public support - 41,000 people signed up recently to make Jeremy Clarkson Prime Minister. The Scottish Parliament and several local authorities have also experimented with e-petitions. To put your views across you can go to the committee forum here . Paper petitions can be presented formally by a Member of Parliament during an adjournment debate. Petitions can also be presented informally by dropping them in a green bag behind the Speaker's Chair. -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Wed Jan 16 08:50:38 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 08:50:38 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: [Dlib-subscribers] The January/February 2008 issue of D-Lib Magazine is now available. Message-ID: <6hhft4$m69vc@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> May be of interest to some linkers involved in archiving and repositories. I'll post this one, but if you want more, suggest follow the link to dlib and subscribe. Jan >The January/February 2008 issue of D-Lib Magazine >(http://www.dlib.org/) is now available. > >This issue contains five articles, a workshop report, the 'In Brief' >column, excerpts from recent press releases, and news of upcoming >conferences and other items of interest in 'Clips and >Pointers'. This month, D-Lib features the "Library of the >University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign" contributed by Betsy Kruger. > > >The articles include: > >Interoperability for Searching Learning Object Repositories: The >ProLearn Query Language >Stefaan Ternier and Erik Duval, Katholieke Universiteit Leuven >(K.U.Leuven) / ARIADNE Foundation, Belgium; David Massart, European >Schoolnet (EUN); and Alessandro Campi, Sam Guinea, and Stefano Ceri, >Politecnico di Milano (POLIMI), Italy > >Creating Preservation-Ready Web Resources >Joan A. Smith and Michael L. Nelson, Old Dominion University > >Carrots and Sticks: Some Ideas on How to Create a Successful >Institutional Repository >Miguel Ferreira, Eloy Rodrigues, Ana Alice Baptista, and Ricardo >Saraiva, University of Minho, Portugal > >Necessary but Not Sufficient: Modelling Online Archive Development in the UK >Ian G. Anderson, HATII, University of Glasgow >doi:10.1045/january2008-anderson > >The Current State-of-art in Newspaper Digitization: A Market Perspective >Edwin Klijn, Koninklijke Bibliotheek > >The workshop report is: > >Next Steps for E-Science, the Textual Humanities and VREs: A Report >on Text and Grid: Research Questions for the Humanities, Sciences >and Industry, UK e-Science All Hands Meeting 2007 >Stuart Dunn and Tobias Blanke, King's College London > > >D-Lib Magazine has mirror sites at the following locations: > >UKOLN, University of Bath, Bath, England >http://mirrored.ukoln.ac.uk/lis-journals/dlib/ > >The Australian National University, Canberra, Australia >http://dlib.anu.edu.au/ Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au Wed Jan 16 08:09:03 2008 From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 08:09:03 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Beijing 2008 Olympic Online only for Windows users? Message-ID: <20080115215954.1833AE081@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com> A blog entry by Tim Bray, speculates that the 2008 Beijing Olympics will only be available online to Microsoft Windows users and those with newer Apple Macs. This seems unlikely, as if for no other reason it would make the Olympics less accessible to the disabled, exposing NBC and Microsoft to lawsuits for unlawful discrimination. --- "Not all is sweetness and light around the Olympics. The 2008 version in Beijing will be made available online; but only via Silverlight. Which means that if you use a Linux or Solaris box, or one of the few million pre-Intel Macs that are still out there, the Olympic Community doesn?t want peons like you on board. This seems scandalous to me, but nobody else seems to care. ..." From: Tab Sweep ? World, Tim Bray, 2008/01/13 --- Just to unravel what is being said: Silverlight is a Microsoft developed web browser plugin to provide similar features to Adobe Flash . Tim refers to a blog entry by a Microsoft staff member who makes claims about exclusive coverage of the Olympics: --- "On 8-8-08 the 2008 Summer Olympic Games will officially kick off in Beijing, China. ... We have signed an agreement to partner with NBC Universal to build a Silverlight 2.0 based web broadcast of the 2008 Summer Olympic games. This agreement also sets MSN as the official home of the 2008 Summer Olympics. As a part of this, we will provide users with exclusive access to over 3000 hours of live and on-demand video content via Silverlight streaming. This means that viewers can access every minute of every event. Additionally, the amount of meta-data attached to each of the streams will be extensive and include links to player bios, medal counts, shortcuts to particular events (i.e. athlete x?s third long-jump attempt), maps of the Olympic facilities, pop-up overlays with real-time event alerts, headlines, video search capabilities, etc. ..." From: 2008 Olympics brought to you by Silverlight, January 07, 2008 2:54 AM, Somasegar --- This in turn refers to an agreement with NBC, which was reported earlier by news sources: "... NBC Universal, owner of the exclusive U.S. media rights to this summer's Olympic Games in Beijing, China (August 8-24, 2008), announced today that it was teaming up with MSN and Microsoft in an unprecedented strategic alliance to create "NBCOlympics.com on MSN", a next-generation online experience for Olympic fans across the United States. With thousands of hours of competition video in both live and on-demand formats, deep analysis and results delivered from NBC's award-winning broadcast and digital media teams, and Microsoft's Silverlight technology to deliver deeply immersive user experiences, NBCOlympics.com's coverage will be powered by MSN and Microsoft technology to complement NBC's broadcast programming and put millions of fans in control of the Olympic sports, athletes and countries they want to watch. .... "NBCOlympics.com on MSN" will deliver: -- 2,200 hours of live event video coverage, with more than 20 simultaneous live video streams at peak times -- More than 3,000 hours of on-demand video content including full-event replays, highlights, features, interviews and encore packages. -- An "enhanced playback mode" powered by Silverlight that gives users the choice of a high-quality full screen viewing experience that is as good or better than anything on the Internet today -- Unique metadata overlays powered by Silverlight that enable fans to have access not only to high quality video, but also to the wealth of related content including results, statistics, comprehensive bios, rules and expert analysis from NBC's Olympic digital media team in Beijing -- Live video alerts so fans can stay connected to the events and teams they care most about -- Social networking features that enable fans to share aspects of their Olympic experience with friends ... Adam Freifeld of NBC Sports, +1-201-965-2971, adam.freifeld at nbcuni.com; or Adam Sohn of Microsoft, +1-503-443-7000, adamso at microsoft.com" From: NBC Universal and Microsoft Team Up On Unprecedented Web Offering for 2008 Beijing Olympic Games, Reuters, an 6, 2008 9:30pm EST --- Some points to note from this: 1. USA only: The International Olympic committee allocates TV rights to the games on a country basis. NBC only has the U.S. media rights to 2008 Olympics and so whatever is done will only effect those in the USA. 2. Video Only: The media release was about the way video will be delivered online, it does not necessary mean that other Olympic information, such as text, audio and still images will be delivered this way. In addition, even if NBC and Microsoft only deliver information in this format, similar information should be available from other Olympic suppliers. 3. Accessibility Law: Under the laws of the USA, Australia, UK and many other countries, organizations providing services via the web are required to supply them to persons with a disability. Failing to do this is unlawful. This principle was established in the 2000 Sydney Olympics case. It seems unlikely that NBC or Microsoft could fail to be aware of their obligation to provide access for the disabled to Olympic coverage. I was one of the expert witnesses in the accessibility case over the 2000 Olympics and invited to Beijing in 2003 to advise on the 2008 Olympic web site. See: * Olympic Failure: A Case for Making the Web Accessible, INET 2001: Internet Society Conference, 8 June 2001, Stockholm . * Making an Accessible and Functional Website for the 2008 Beijing Olympics, Beijing 2008 Olympic Games Official Website Preliminary Strategy Plan Symposium, Beijing, November 2003 . Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington at tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 http://www.tomw.net.au/ Adjunct Senior Lecturer, ANU From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Wed Jan 16 08:55:16 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 08:55:16 +1100 Subject: [LINK] [UK] Parliament ponders the weight of e-petitions In-Reply-To: <478D204D.4040403@iimetro.com.au> References: <478D204D.4040403@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <6hhft4$m6cil@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> At 08:06 AM 16/01/2008, Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: >One poster complains about their experience of the e-petitions run >by the Prime Minister's office. > >Poster "Perspective Vortex" said that at the end of the consultation >period the government emailed everyone who had signed up opposing >replacement of Trident nuclear missiles with a message in support of >government policy. > >The poster explained: "In essence, my petition was used to create a >mailing list to assist the government in lobbying the public; I >consider myself to have been duped into assisting interest groups >opposed to my petition... I consider the e-petitioning system to be >a mendacious gimmick with the overall effect of generating political >disengagement and cynicism." why is a government office, and the PM's office to boot, running petitions??? What a weird way to do something. Petitions come from the people, not under the auspices of those being petitioned to do something. If the PM's office did email everyone to 'lobby' the citizenry to think differently, getting those email addresses by pretention of participating in a faux petition, that's just wrong. But, this misuse/abuse of petitioning is quite different from comparing e-petitions to paper petitions. Jan Jan Whitaker JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Living, like writing, requires no wisdom. Only revising does. - Jim Sollisch, Sept, 2007 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005 _ __________________ _ From brd at iimetro.com.au Wed Jan 16 12:08:05 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:08:05 +1100 Subject: [LINK] OOXML vs ODF Message-ID: <478D58F5.60509@iimetro.com.au> OOXML vs ODF In the Blue corner, representing OOXML, the Burton Group http://www.burtongroup.com/Guest/Ccs/WhatsUpDoc.aspx In the Red corner representing ODF (or, at least, debunking the Burton Group's pro OOXML case), Ars Technica http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080114-analyst-group-slams-odf-downplays-microsoft-iso-abuses.html May the better rhetoric win. -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Wed Jan 16 12:36:16 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:36:16 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Diacritics and Search Engines Message-ID: It's embarrassing to have to admit it (because I've done some work in this area), but I've just twigged to the obvious - diacritics such as umlauts, acutes and cedillas are not handled well by search-engines. In the few languages that I'm familiar with, a letter with a diacritic is appropriately treated as a variant of the letter, e.g. u-umlaut is still a u (although in some languages the unadorned letter may not exist, or the two may be treated as different letters). I tripped over the problem because people have reported that they're unable to find my paper from last September: What '?berveillance' Is, and What To Do About It [Heaven knows what your email-client did with the u-umlaut ...] http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/DV/RNSA07.html If linkers can point to sources that explain this to dubbos like me, and what to do about it, I'd greatly appreciate the assistance. -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From arsptr at internode.on.net Wed Jan 16 12:43:57 2008 From: arsptr at internode.on.net (Alastair Rankine) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:43:57 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Diacritics and Search Engines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <478D615D.5010103@internode.on.net> Roger Clarke wrote: > It's embarrassing to have to admit it (because I've done some work in > this area), but I've just twigged to the obvious - diacritics such as > umlauts, acutes and cedillas are not handled well by search-engines. WFM: http://www.google.com.au/search?q=%C3%9Cberveillance&cr=countryAU&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0 Your paper appears as the second result. Note that ? is a different character to U, no surprise that it should change the search term. From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Wed Jan 16 13:25:34 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 13:25:34 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Diacritics and Search Engines In-Reply-To: <478D615D.5010103@internode.on.net> References: <478D615D.5010103@internode.on.net> Message-ID: At 12:43 +1100 16/1/08, Alastair Rankine wrote: >http://www.google.com.au/search?q=%C3%9Cberveillance&cr=countryAU&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0 >Your paper appears as the second result. I accept that, thanks, but my point wasn't that the paper couldn't be found, nor that the u-umlaut isn't supported. The point I'm making is that a search on doesn't locate documents that contain the string where X = u-umlaut / ? / %C3%9C (depending on the character-set and encoding that's used). >Note that ? is a different character to U, no surprise that it >should change the search term. I'm arguing that, for a number of purposes, the set 'u-umlaut' is a subset of the set 'u', and that searches need to deal with that relationship in some way. That's not a character-set or encoding issue, but a service and hence application issue. Addendum: A search on also finds nothing. The character-pair / diphthong 'ue' is both the origin of the umlaut and conventional usage, in German, in a variety of contexts (i.e. not just when using 7-bit ASCII). It's particularly common to see 'Ue' when the u-umlaut occurs at the beginning of a sentence or the beginning of a proper noun (because in German the first letter of all nouns is capitalised, not just the first letters of names and of words in titles). -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From arsptr at internode.on.net Wed Jan 16 14:06:25 2008 From: arsptr at internode.on.net (Alastair Rankine) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:06:25 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Diacritics and Search Engines In-Reply-To: References: <478D615D.5010103@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <478D74B1.7010103@internode.on.net> Roger Clarke wrote: > I accept that, thanks, but my point wasn't that the paper couldn't be > found, nor that the u-umlaut isn't supported. > > The point I'm making is that a search on doesn't > locate documents that contain the string where X = > u-umlaut / ? / %C3%9C (depending on the character-set and encoding > that's used). I see what you mean now, and yes it is an issue. I don't know the answer but I'd *guess* that the reason has something to do with the complexity and newness of the Unicode Collation Algorithm (http://www.unicode.org/unicode/reports/tr10/) This provides the sorts of equivalences that you're asking for, see for example the collation charts (http://www.unicode.org/charts/collation/). In other words, it's a hard job, as with just about any i18n task. Trying to do it on a search engine scale with the requisite performance is a *very* hard job. From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Wed Jan 16 14:36:16 2008 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:36:16 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Diacritics and Search Engines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 16/01/2008, at 12:36 PM, Roger Clarke wrote: > It's embarrassing to have to admit it (because I've done some work > in this area), but I've just twigged to the obvious - diacritics > such as umlauts, acutes and cedillas are not handled well by search- > engines. Diacritics are not just there to confuse we english speakers or to alter pronunciation, they affect meaning. Try searching google separately on "th?", "th?", or "the" to see what I mean. If you want to search for a word spelt with and without a diacritic you need to OR them together. Tony phone : 02 6241 7659 mobile: 04 1242 0397 -- ~| mailto: tony at Tony-Barry.emu.id.au -- \@ or tony.barry at alianet.alia.org.au -- _\\/\% http://tony-barry.emu.id.au GT3 ____(*)__(*)___ Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Restore From rick at praxis.com.au Wed Jan 16 16:16:04 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 16:16:04 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Sears can install spyware but don't try this at home Message-ID: <478D9314.1070804@praxis.com.au> Culled from the latest CRYPTOGRAM ... or Join "My SHC Community" on Sears.com, and the company will install some pretty impressive spyware on your computer. If a kid with a scary hacker name did this sort of thing, he'd be arrested. But this is Sears, so who knows what will happen to them. But what should happen is that the anti-spyware companies should treat this as the malware it is, and not ignore it because it's done by a Fortune 500 company. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services You got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda. -- George W Bush From wavey_one at yahoo.com Wed Jan 16 18:23:30 2008 From: wavey_one at yahoo.com (David Goldstein) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 23:23:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LINK] Diacritics and Search Engines Message-ID: <901472.73976.qm@web50501.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Roger, My guess is that it has something to do with the search engine used and the preferences. I use search engines a lot for my work, and one at least has no problem in picking up characters not in the English language. Go to the preferences and change the language setting and see what happens. I use alltheweb.com a lot and it picks up non-English characters perfectly. Alltheweb.com finds your paper at www.homelandsecurity.org.au/files/RNSA_Social_Implications07_TEXT.pdf but not at the link you gave below. Google I find useless at trying to search for more than one language at a time, although it could just be I can't work out the box to check in the preferences! Cheers David ----- Original Message ---- From: Roger Clarke To: link at anu.edu.au Sent: Wednesday, 16 January, 2008 12:36:16 PM Subject: [LINK] Diacritics and Search Engines It's embarrassing to have to admit it (because I've done some work in this area), but I've just twigged to the obvious - diacritics such as umlauts, acutes and cedillas are not handled well by search-engines. In the few languages that I'm familiar with, a letter with a diacritic is appropriately treated as a variant of the letter, e.g. u-umlaut is still a u (although in some languages the unadorned letter may not exist, or the two may be treated as different letters). I tripped over the problem because people have reported that they're unable to find my paper from last September: What '?berveillance' Is, and What To Do About It [Heaven knows what your email-client did with the u-umlaut ...] http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/DV/RNSA07.html If linkers can point to sources that explain this to dubbos like me, and what to do about it, I'd greatly appreciate the assistance. -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW _______________________________________________ Link mailing list Link at mailman.anu.edu.au http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link Make the switch to the world's best email. Get the new Yahoo!7 Mail now. www.yahoo7.com.au/worldsbestemail From kim at cynosure.com.au Thu Jan 17 06:33:10 2008 From: kim at cynosure.com.au (Kim Davies) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 13:33:10 -0600 Subject: [LINK] Diacritics and Search Engines In-Reply-To: References: <478D615D.5010103@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <20080116193310.GB18206@dengue> Quoting Roger Clarke on Wednesday January 16, 2008: > > I accept that, thanks, but my point wasn't that the paper couldn't be > found, nor that the u-umlaut isn't supported. > > The point I'm making is that a search on doesn't locate > documents that contain the string where X = u-umlaut / ? / > %C3%9C (depending on the character-set and encoding that's used). Perhaps not that surprising, given the ? in the context of ?ber is a distinct German letter separate from u, that is normally transcoded in ASCII as "ue". Google does have some language contextuality ? if you Google search for "ueber" it will match "?ber". > I'm arguing that, for a number of purposes, the set 'u-umlaut' is > a subset of the set 'u', and that searches need to deal with that > relationship in some way. I don't think that is a safe assumption to make. It is, at least, a rather English-centric view. Ask a Swede and they will say they are taught in school of their 29 character alphabet. (28 until they recently added the letter "w" due to its appearance in loanwords like "web"). Just dropping diacritics only works in some languages, not in others. kim From brd at iimetro.com.au Thu Jan 17 10:36:10 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 10:36:10 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Expert advise sought please... In-Reply-To: <478E8F8C.3030800@lannet.com.au> References: <478E8F8C.3030800@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <478E94EA.4030107@iimetro.com.au> How about you engrave (or etch) a serial number (if it doesn't have one already) on various parts of the device. The serial number could have a code embedded into it describing the device. A separate (or multiple) database could then keep track of the full spec and other information regarding the device. This could be loaded at manufacture time and updated as required and necessary. If you are not careful a high tech solution could have more problems than the original problem. Howard Lowndes wrote: > ...esp from Geoff R. > > I'm thinking RFID here rather than barcodes, but their ID code would > also need to be human readable, just in case a reader is not available. > > This is for my Nepal project and I have doubts about the lifespan of > barcodes in the working environment. > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: From Alex another NEW Idea to investigate > Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 17:08:02 +0530 > > Dear Howard, Ken and friends > Greetings. I have one more NEW idea for which I need your support and > advise as it is again linked with communication, software and digital > numbering etc. which is NOT my field at all. > Here the idea and vision: > I want that every battery of each solar PV system we will install over > the next years (as well as the ones we have installed since we started > work in Humla) to be registered and identified in regard to its size, > capacity, technology, origin, brand, location installed (Lat. Long. > Altitude), installation date, system installed with (SHS, cluster system > etc...), owner name, maintenance done...etc > I think of a bar code (http://www.barcodesinc.com/generator/) that can > store all this information which can be printed with a printer on a > label, such as e.g.: http://www.barcodesinc.com/zebra/mz220.htm . With a > bar code scanner (http://www.barcodesinc.com/generator/) the information > can be read, recorded, stored and downloaded into a data bank at any > time, even after years. In this way we can keep a detailed track of each > battery, and can monitor its life cycle. In particular I intend to find > that when a battery is "dead" where it came from so that we can > understand its conditions it has been working under. This should in the > long run also be the main tool for a battery recycling project I have in > mind since quite some time. > Thus my question is: > 1) Is that something you think is generally possible and feasible...or > is this just a crazy idea...? > 2) What would be the initial equipment, hardware wise and software wise, > we would need to consider. (see above web sites of possible hardware...) > 3) What could be the difficult parts of such a project....What are the > advantages and disadvantages...? > 4) Do you have a better idea how it could be done...easier and cheaper > and more reliable...? > 5) What do you think how much information can be stored in a bar code...? > 6) any other suggestions...? > > Hear from you > Cheers > Alex > > -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Thu Jan 17 10:59:10 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 10:59:10 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Expert advise sought please... In-Reply-To: <478E8F8C.3030800@lannet.com.au> References: <478E8F8C.3030800@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: At 10:13 +1100 17/1/08, Howard Lowndes wrote: >I'm thinking RFID here rather than barcodes, but their ID code would >also need to be human readable, just in case a reader is not >available. >This is for my Nepal project and I have doubts about the lifespan of >barcodes in the working environment. I can't give advise, partly because I speak Strine and Strine spells it with a 'c' (:-)} But mainly because IANAE. I'll chatter anyway ... There are contexts in which data definitely needs to travel with the object. I'm thinking of a space probe designed to eventually return to earth orbit. It'll get back long after the information systems that were running when it was launched have passed into industrial archaeology. There are clearly also military applications of the idea, because you can't afford to assume that HQ hasn't been bombed into oblivion whereas a lot of the battlefield equipment is still operational and needs replenishment and repair. But I have to express some doubt about the need to store data about solar installations in so dispersed a fashion. Will corporate memory really be so unreliable and/or the life of the installations so long that the project will be but a distant memory? (The only clue in Alex's email is "even after years"). The idea of an RFID tag to carry an identifier for the device may have merit though, subject to a few considerations such as: - a database with the identifier as a key - survivability of the tag - survivability of the chip (environmental conditions? inherent decay of the materials?) - availability of readers when the time comes How much has contactless smartcard / RFID / NFC technology developed / drifted since it started? And at what speed (measured in say standard-changes p.a.)? Can current devices read the early tags? Are *all* aspects fully standardised now? (An example to remember: lovely 56Kbps modems that could throttle back down through the various speed-standards - but no further than about 2400bps - making them useless in Batlow). >-------- Original Message -------- >Subject: From Alex another NEW Idea to investigate >Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 17:08:02 +0530 > >Dear Howard, Ken and friends >Greetings. I have one more NEW idea for which I need your support and >advise as it is again linked with communication, software and digital >numbering etc. which is NOT my field at all. >Here the idea and vision: >I want that every battery of each solar PV system we will install over >the next years (as well as the ones we have installed since we started >work in Humla) to be registered and identified in regard to its size, >capacity, technology, origin, brand, location installed (Lat. Long. >Altitude), installation date, system installed with (SHS, cluster system >etc...), owner name, maintenance done...etc >I think of a bar code (http://www.barcodesinc.com/generator/) that can >store all this information which can be printed with a printer on a >label, such as e.g.: http://www.barcodesinc.com/zebra/mz220.htm . With a >bar code scanner (http://www.barcodesinc.com/generator/) the information >can be read, recorded, stored and downloaded into a data bank at any >time, even after years. In this way we can keep a detailed track of each >battery, and can monitor its life cycle. In particular I intend to find >that when a battery is "dead" where it came from so that we can >understand its conditions it has been working under. This should in the >long run also be the main tool for a battery recycling project I have in >mind since quite some time. >Thus my question is: >1) Is that something you think is generally possible and feasible...or >is this just a crazy idea...? >2) What would be the initial equipment, hardware wise and software wise, >we would need to consider. (see above web sites of possible hardware...) >3) What could be the difficult parts of such a project....What are the >advantages and disadvantages...? >4) Do you have a better idea how it could be done...easier and cheaper >and more reliable...? >5) What do you think how much information can be stored in a bar code...? >6) any other suggestions...? > >Hear from you >Cheers >Alex > > >-- >Howard. >LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people >When you want a computer system that works, just choose Linux; >When you want a computer system that works, just, choose Microsoft. >-- >Flatter government, not fatter government; abolish the Australian states. > >_______________________________________________ >Link mailing list >Link at mailman.anu.edu.au >http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From stephen at melbpc.org.au Thu Jan 17 16:52:14 2008 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen at melbpc.org.au) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 05:52:14 GMT Subject: [LINK] Windows XP versus Vista Message-ID: <20080117055214.5BF6017619@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> Why XP must be saved: The costs are too high and the benefits too low to be forced to switch to Vista By Galen Gruman January 14, 2008 The clock is ticking: Microsoft will end OEM and shrink-wrapped sales of Windows XP on June 30, 2008, forcing users to shift to Vista. (System builders, meaning those who do white-box PCs, can sell XP through December 31.) Don't let that happen! Millions of us have grown comfortable with XP and don't see a need to change to Vista. It's like having a comfortable apartment that you've enjoyed coming home to for years, only to get an eviction notice. The thought of moving to a new place -- even with the stainless steel appliances, granite countertops, and maple cabinets (or is cherry in this year?) -- just doesn't sit right. Maybe it'll be more modern, but it will also cost more and likely not be as good a fit. And you don't have any other reason to move. That's exactly the conclusion people have come to with Vista. For most of us, there's really no reason to move to it -- yet we don't have a choice. When that strong desire to stick with XP became obvious in spring 2007, major computer makers such as Dell and Hewlett- Packard quietly reintroduced new XP-based systems (but just to business customers, so as not to offend Microsoft). But come June 30, even that option goes away. (See InfoWorld's live XP countdown clock. To use this clock on your own Web site, please e-mail Executive Editor Galen Gruman for the code snippet.) So what to do? Let Microsoft decide where your personal and enterprise software "lives"? Or send a loud and clear message that you don't want to move? We're going for the loud-and-clear option. Join us, and tell Microsoft that you want to keep XP available indefinitely. Not for another six months or a year, but indefinitely. Sign InfoWorld's petition today. And consider submitting a "Save XP" video to our site to help spread the word. And ask your friends and colleagues to join in, too. Just point them to Don't think Microsoft will listen? Consider this: Although Microsoft denies that anything is wrong with Vista or that most people don't want it, the company has already postponed XP's demise by six months. That's a start, but it's not good enough. Microsoft doesn't have to admit failure; it can just say it will keep XP available indefinitely due to customer demand. It can take that opportunity to try again with a better Vista, or just move on to the next version that maybe this time we'll all actually want. There is a precedent for that, too: In many respects, Vista is like the Windows Millennium Edition that was meant to replace Windows 98 in 2000 but caused more trouble than it was worth. At that time, Windows 2000 was promising but didn't support a lot of hardware, so users were stuck between two bad choices. Without admitting Millennium's failure, Microsoft quietly put Windows 98 back on the market until the fixed version of Windows 2000 (SP1) was available. Microsoft needs to do something like that again today. Make your voice heard to Microsoft. Sign our petition to save XP today. We will present it to Microsoft. For more on why Vista isn't the right replacement for XP, check out InfoWorld's analyses: The (post-SP1) Vista verdict: Wait for Windows 7 Randall Kennedy's assessment is that for the vast majority of enterprise IT shops, Vista is not -- and likely never will be -- the right choice for their immediate desktop computing needs. Service pack vs. service pack: XP SP3 beats Vista SP1 According to tests by Devil Mountain Software comparing the release candidates for the last Windows XP service pack and the first Vista service pack, XP SP3 performs twice as fast as Vista SP1 on the same machine -- and slower than the initial release of the Vista OS as well. Businesses having second thoughts about Vista Fewer businesses are now planning to move to Windows Vista than seven months ago, according to a survey by patch management vendor PatchLink. Forrester: Businesses still saying no to Vista An anticipated rush by businesses to adopt Windows Vista hasn't materialized as IT managers stick with familiar systems and wait for the release of Vista Service Pack 1. Microsoft: Vista follow-up likely in 2009 With Vista just out the door, Microsoft is now drawing up plans to deliver its follow-up client operating system by the end of 2009. Farewell Vista, hello XP >From PCWorld.com: How to make the switch back and deal with the gnarly problem of transferring your Vista e-mail, contacts, and user data back to the old standby operating system. HP CEO: Vista never had its moment in 2007 >From CIO.com: Wondering what's happened to momentum for Microsoft's Vista operating system in corporate America? Fact is, enterprise IT has continued to decline the Vista plate like it's an undercooked holiday casserole. Listen to what Hewlett-Packard CEO Mark Hurd said: HP never saw a "Vista moment at any time over the past year." UK government report: Don?t upgrade to Vista Report warns British schools not to upgrade to Microsoft's Vista OS and Office 2007 suite, and to avoid Microsoft's OOXML document format because of compatibility concerns. Galen Gruman is executive editor of InfoWorld. -- Cheers people Stephen Loosley Victoria, Australia From gramadan at umd.com.au Thu Jan 17 18:54:33 2008 From: gramadan at umd.com.au (Geoffrey Ramadan) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 18:54:33 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Expert advise sought please... In-Reply-To: <478E8F8C.3030800@lannet.com.au> References: <478E8F8C.3030800@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <478F09B9.1040401@umd.com.au> Howard Firstly my general approach to customers asking for RFID solutions is to try and talk them out of it! I now that RFID has a very narrow "fitness for purpose" and that many RFID inquiries we get asked about, are really suited to other forms of data capture technology, which is what I suspect here. As you want to hold the database with the product and you want it human readable as well. My first option would be to use a 2D barcode printed via a thermal transfer label printer. This will allow you to print the barcode and any related text/image on the same label. The choice of thermal ribbon and label material will be important to ensure longevity. (typically a wax/resin ribbon and some plastic label like Polyester which is popular as an asset label) If you are not familiar with 2D barcodes, check out: http://www.denso-wave.com/qrcode/index-e.html There are different symbologies to choose from, but I prefer Datamatrix or QR code. You can encode more that 3000 characters with Datamatrix and 7000 with QR Code. 2D barcodes also have inbuilt error detection. For example upto 30% of a QR barcode can be destroyed, yet still readable. You might want to encode the data using XML tags. You then then use a 2D barcode scanner with say a keyboard wedge interface (which simply types the data via the keyboard buffer of your system). Only if barcoding was deemed to be not suitable would I consider RFID technology. If you need assistance in sourcing these technologies, please let me know and I can advise off list. Reg Geoffrey Ramadan B.E.(Elec) Chairman, Automatic Data Capture Association (www.adca.com.au) and Managing Director, Unique Micro Design (www.umd.com.au) Howard Lowndes wrote: > ...esp from Geoff R. > > I'm thinking RFID here rather than barcodes, but their ID code would > also need to be human readable, just in case a reader is not available. > > This is for my Nepal project and I have doubts about the lifespan of > barcodes in the working environment. > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: From Alex another NEW Idea to investigate > Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 17:08:02 +0530 > > Dear Howard, Ken and friends > Greetings. I have one more NEW idea for which I need your support and > advise as it is again linked with communication, software and digital > numbering etc. which is NOT my field at all. > Here the idea and vision: > I want that every battery of each solar PV system we will install over > the next years (as well as the ones we have installed since we started > work in Humla) to be registered and identified in regard to its size, > capacity, technology, origin, brand, location installed (Lat. Long. > Altitude), installation date, system installed with (SHS, cluster system > etc...), owner name, maintenance done...etc > I think of a bar code (http://www.barcodesinc.com/generator/) that can > store all this information which can be printed with a printer on a > label, such as e.g.: http://www.barcodesinc.com/zebra/mz220.htm . With a > bar code scanner (http://www.barcodesinc.com/generator/) the information > can be read, recorded, stored and downloaded into a data bank at any > time, even after years. In this way we can keep a detailed track of each > battery, and can monitor its life cycle. In particular I intend to find > that when a battery is "dead" where it came from so that we can > understand its conditions it has been working under. This should in the > long run also be the main tool for a battery recycling project I have in > mind since quite some time. > Thus my question is: > 1) Is that something you think is generally possible and feasible...or > is this just a crazy idea...? > 2) What would be the initial equipment, hardware wise and software wise, > we would need to consider. (see above web sites of possible hardware...) > 3) What could be the difficult parts of such a project....What are the > advantages and disadvantages...? > 4) Do you have a better idea how it could be done...easier and cheaper > and more reliable...? > 5) What do you think how much information can be stored in a bar code...? > 6) any other suggestions...? > > Hear from you > Cheers > Alex > > From jwhit at janwhitaker.com Thu Jan 17 20:38:46 2008 From: jwhit at janwhitaker.com (Jan Whitaker) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 20:38:46 +1100 Subject: [LINK] speaking of do not call registers... Message-ID: <6hhge8$13pjo6@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> Robin Whittle, this one is for you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5z4Vs26-TI&feature=related Be sure you're in a place you can have audio up and be laughing yourself silly. Jan Semi-finalist - Amazon Breakout Novelist Award 2008: The Truck - A baby-boomer nostalgia murder mystery http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00121WDVA - Read and rate now! Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Writing Lesson #54: Learn to love revision. Think of it as polishing the silver for guests. - JW, May, 2007 _ __________________ _ From dlochrin at d2.net.au Thu Jan 17 21:35:31 2008 From: dlochrin at d2.net.au (David Lochrin) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 21:35:31 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Expert advise sought please... In-Reply-To: <478E8F8C.3030800@lannet.com.au> References: <478E8F8C.3030800@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <200801172135.31437.dlochrin@d2.net.au> On Thursday 17 January 2008 10:13, Howard Lowndes wrote: > ...esp from Geoff R. > > I'm thinking RFID here rather than barcodes, but their ID code would > also need to be human readable, just in case a reader is not available. > > This is for my Nepal project and I have doubts about the lifespan of > barcodes in the working environment. The goal seems to me to be eminently reasonable. A similar process used to be employed to track individual parts of jet engines and their engineering history through overhaul cycles, and probably still is. But I agree with Bernard Robertson-Dunn. I'd go for a solution which is as low-tech as possible, and a database in which each item is identified by a serial number seems appropriate. This could be extended to include the solar PV cells and other components & subsystems, not to mention daily peak & average power demand if required. David From stephen at melbpc.org.au Fri Jan 18 02:30:57 2008 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen at melbpc.org.au) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:30:57 GMT Subject: [LINK] Personalized PageRank Message-ID: <20080117153057.D399B173A4@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> Appears definite .. Web2 search engines .. And two people, using the same search-terms, might never visit the same sites ever again. -- Bill Slawski, www.SEObytheSea.com and WebProNews email Thursday, Jan 17, 2008 As complex as Google's 'PageRank' may be, search experts at Yahoo seem to think it's not complex enough. Based on patent filings, Yahoo is dabbling in ranking algorithms that incorporate more user behavior data in advance of the company's next run at toppling Google's haloed relevance. Google is highly secretive about how its search engine calculates Page Rank. If history is any indication, they're already way ahead on behavioral factoring. Nonetheless, Yahoo can afford the best search engineers in the business .. Some Yahoo assumptions about Google PageRank, and flaws associated: Internal and external links are often weighed equally even though internal links can be less reliable and more self-promotional. Some links, like disclaimer links, are rarely followed. PageRank ignores that webpages are often purchased and repurposed, decay or become less valuable over time at variable rates. Current calculations, like TrustRank, are engineered more to combat webspam than to reflect actual user behavior. Sometimes PageRank deals with links in bulk, aggregating according host or domain, also known as blocked PageRank. What Yahoo plans to do about it: Measure link weight ? influenced by the frequency with which users follow a link Note when links are ignored and users leave (teleport) to another page of their choosing Calculate the probability that a user stops and reads a webpage rather than views it and moves on. Incorporate user data into the algorithm ? "User Sensitive PageRank to reflect the navigational behavior of the user population with regard to documents, pages, sites, and domains visited, and links selected." Personalize PageRank based on demographic information ? age, gender, income, user location) Emphasize recent information Weigh anchor text more heavily ? the patent filing calls anchor text "one of the most useful features used in ranking retrieved Web search results" -- Cheers, people Stephen Loosley Victoria, Australia From link at todd.inoz.com Fri Jan 18 02:51:47 2008 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 02:51:47 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Expert advise sought please... In-Reply-To: <478E8F8C.3030800@lannet.com.au> References: <478E8F8C.3030800@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <200801171559.m0HFx95E023041@ah.net> At 10:13 17/01/2008, Howard Lowndes wrote: >...esp from Geoff R. > >I'm thinking RFID here rather than barcodes, but their ID code would >also need to be human readable, just in case a reader is not available. > >This is for my Nepal project and I have doubts about the lifespan of >barcodes in the working environment. Touch Memory perhaps? Although the "human readible" is an issue regardless. You might as well print a metal plate and stick it to the device with all the info that was required to accompany the battery. Trying to make a technology product a human readible solution will never work :) I've tried for years! From link at todd.inoz.com Fri Jan 18 02:57:47 2008 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 02:57:47 +1100 Subject: [LINK] speaking of do not call registers... In-Reply-To: <6hhge8$13pjo6@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> References: <6hhge8$13pjo6@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <200801171559.m0HFx95G023041@ah.net> At 20:38 17/01/2008, Jan Whitaker wrote: >Robin Whittle, this one is for you. > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5z4Vs26-TI&feature=related > >Be sure you're in a place you can have audio up and be laughing >yourself silly. Speaking of which. We've started getting all thes "withheld" number calls askig us for persinal information. When we ask for the details of the caller, they say that the Privacy Act prevents them giving any details. So we've started a campaign. Who knows who's a scammer anyway, so when someone calls and wants to know anything we ask for their name, date of birth, address (street only) and telephone and mobile numbers. IF they refuse to give it we say that under the privacy act we can't give them any personal details because they haven't identified themselves. This has had spectacular result so far. Please consider using it yourself. You will NEVER know if a Nigerian Scammer is on the phone asking for your personal details so they can raid your account and with "telephone verification" being legally accepted, it's not hard to cut and paste or even accurately record YOUR voice in response to a scripted set of questions asked by your bank's Telephone banking people. Hollywood's coolest example of recording a voice and pasting it together word by word is in the movie SNEAKERS. So please don't give your personal information to someone who calls you on your private number simply because YOU think they are legitimate. From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au Thu Jan 17 18:08:56 2008 From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 18:08:56 +1100 Subject: [LINK] re: Head of Microsoft Research India in Canberra, 16 January Message-ID: <20080117211239.2E8994BC2@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com> I wrote Mon, 14 Jan 2008 12:40:05 +1100: >>Building Computer Science Lab In India ? The Microsoft Research >>India Experience >>P. Anandan (Microsoft Research India) ... 2008-01-16 ... ANU ... After his talk I had a brief meeting with P. Anandan at National ICT Australia's (NICTA)new headquarters in Canberra. I asked him what the future of broadband might be. He suggested that WiMax was one technology which might provide a way to connect rural users in places such as India. The previous Australian government arranged for the Optus/ Elders OPEL venture to include WiMax in its regional data network . Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington at tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 http://www.tomw.net.au/ Adjunct Senior Lecturer, ANU From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Fri Jan 18 10:34:42 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:34:42 +1100 Subject: [LINK] speaking of do not call registers... In-Reply-To: <200801171559.m0HFx95G023041@ah.net> References: <6hhge8$13pjo6@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> <200801171559.m0HFx95G023041@ah.net> Message-ID: <6hhge8$14382o@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> At 02:57 AM 18/01/2008, Adam Todd wrote: >We've started getting all thes "withheld" number calls askig us for >persinal information. > >When we ask for the details of the caller, they say that the Privacy >Act prevents them giving any details. If you're wondering if it's worth complaining to the DNC folks, stop wondering. I've complained three times, with very limited info, although I'm getting better at being nice and wheedling something out of them. Usually call centre people are naive and will tell you some things, but NEVER their phone number. That must be part of their training, even though by law they are required to supply it according to ACMA. Anyway, all three complaints have had immediate follow-up from the initial form and further from ACMA, indicating that the companies I was complaining about were under their investigation already. So having more data about breaches of the DNC is more ammunition to fine the offenders. Jan Semi-finalist - Amazon Breakout Novelist Award 2008: The Truck - A baby-boomer nostalgia murder mystery http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00121WDVA - Read and rate now! Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Writing Lesson #54: Learn to love revision. Think of it as polishing the silver for guests. - JW, May, 2007 _ __________________ _ From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Fri Jan 18 10:44:22 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:44:22 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark Message-ID: I've received a 'nastygram' purporting to be on behalf of Telstra/Sensis. It says that the web-page at http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ISRes/AISPlug "represents out clients' trade mark, in a manner which is not correct". I am requested to: - "use the [R inside a circle] symbol next to the trade mark ..."; - "use the name of the product as a noun (eg "the Yellow Pages [R inside a circle] Directory". The final paras. are at the pleasant end of nastygram expression. I'd be interested in your thoughts. After you've worked out what *you* think about it, my draft letter is below. Suggestions for improvement appreciated. _________________________________________________________________________ Mr Bruce J. Akhurst Group Managing Director Telstra Media Services and CEO Sensis Pty Ltd 242 Exhibition St Melbourne VIC 3000 Dear Mr Akhurst Re: Use of the Term 'Yellow Pages' I've received a letter dated 18 December 2007 from a Partner of a law firm Piper Alderman in Adelaide, purporting to be acting on your behalf, and requesting that I insert a symbol into a web-page. The letter was incorrectly addressed to the facilities provider rather than to the content provider, and hence took nearly a month to reach me. The web-page in question dates from 1995, and has not been amended since March 1996. It offered a directory of 'Electronic Communications Resources' for Information Systems (IS) Academics across the world, through the Association for Information Systems. In a section entitled 'Ways of Finding IS People and IS Departments', it included: "For more general resources, try: * the world fax number directory; * Telstra's (Australian) White Pages; * Telstra's (Australian) Yellow Pages (the first commercial yellow pages in the world on the net)." The site as a whole contains a couple of thousand pages, and has accumulated something approaching 25 million hits; but the hit-count on this particular page has contributed a minuscule proportion of them, and most recent hits would doubtless be merely search-engine robots. I find it absolutely extraordinary that your company would fund a partner in a law firm to waste time and money searching out harmless pages and writing 'nastygrams' of this kind - energy that could instead be invested in improvements to the product. Note that the use of the term on the page is quite general, and there is no evidence of any attempt to appropriate the term, nor to benefit commercially or otherwise from its use, nor to denigrate the IP owner. In fact it promotes your site, and speaks in a complimentary manner about it. Under the circumstances, the letter is not only inappropriate, but oppressive. Yours sincerely, etc. -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From ivan at itrundle.com Fri Jan 18 11:14:41 2008 From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:14:41 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7FD02D38-B72C-41D5-A4D9-806D4EE7555C@itrundle.com> Unbelievable nonsense, Roger. A simple Google (Australia) search of the term 'Yellow Pages', and a cursory look at the first 20 or so of the 309,000 results show clearly that the lawyers mentioned have their work cut out for the next 150 years or so. On 18/01/2008, at 10:44 AM, Roger Clarke wrote: > Note that the use of the term on the page is quite general, > and there is no evidence of any attempt to appropriate the term, nor > to benefit commercially or otherwise from its use, nor to denigrate > the IP owner. In fact it promotes your site, and speaks in a > complimentary manner about it. Under the circumstances, the letter > is not only inappropriate, but oppressive. Quite. This is exactly the point. There is no dilution of the trade mark, nor misrepresentation. http://www.artslaw.com.au/LegalInformation/Trademarks/default.asp (quoting IP Australia information): [Preventing others from using your trade mark] Trade mark registration can assist you to prevent (from the date your trade mark is registered) someone from using your trade mark or a similar trade mark, and also to obtain compensation for unauthorised use or infringement from that time. To be successful in an infringement action it is necessary to show that: ? use of the infringing mark was use as a trade mark. That is, the infringing trade mark was being used to indicate a connection, in the course of trade, between goods or services and the (infringing) trader or service provider; and ? the infringing trade mark is identical, substantially identical or deceptively similar to your trade mark; and ? the goods or services (or both) in relation to which the infringing trade mark was used are the same or at least similar or closely related to the goods or services for which your trade mark is registered. iT From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Fri Jan 18 11:11:17 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:11:17 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6hhge8$1444nl@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> At 10:44 AM 18/01/2008, Roger Clarke wrote: >Note that the use of the term on the page is quite general, and >there is no evidence of any attempt to appropriate the term, nor to >benefit commercially or otherwise from its use, nor to denigrate the >IP owner. In fact it promotes your site, and speaks in a >complimentary manner about it. Under the circumstances, the letter >is not only inappropriate, but oppressive. > >Yours sincerely, etc. My thought after looking at the page and before reading your letter was to change both listings that name Telstra to generic listings advise like type in www.yellowpages.com.yourcountrycodehere and leave Telstra out of it altogether. Stop giving them free traffic. do a mea culpa and tell them you will go through all of your pages and remove any reference to any Telstra owned or operated company as you do not support their approach to doing business nor their intimidatory practices. You might also copy the Shareholders Association. I'm sure they would be interested in knowing about this wasting of company operating funds in such a ridiculous way. BTW, Yellow Pages is an international convention for naming the business directory. One wonders if they aren't breaching someone else's trademark name. I know they were Yellow Pages in the US. Jan [who sold her shares and therefore has no further conflict of interest in throwing barbs at them] Semi-finalist - Amazon Breakout Novelist Award 2008: The Truck - A baby-boomer nostalgia murder mystery http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00121WDVA - Read and rate now! Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Writing Lesson #54: Learn to love revision. Think of it as polishing the silver for guests. - JW, May, 2007 _ __________________ _ From rick at praxis.com.au Fri Jan 18 11:22:17 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:22:17 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <478FF139.4010803@praxis.com.au> Roger Clarke wrote: > I've received a 'nastygram' purporting to be on behalf of Telstra/Sensis. > > It says that the web-page at > http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ISRes/AISPlug > "represents out clients' trade mark, in a manner which is not correct". > > I am requested to: > - "use the [R inside a circle] symbol next to the trade mark ..."; > - "use the name of the product as a noun (eg "the Yellow Pages > [R inside a circle] Directory". > > The final paras. are at the pleasant end of nastygram expression. > > I'd be interested in your thoughts. You are not alone. A quick google found this: Here is an example of their "nastygram": The following pages mention Telstra Yellow Pages without using the registered trademark symbol. Mr Akhurst could be accused of vexacious litigation, given the following examples: There are thousands of more such examples. > After you've worked out what *you* think about it, my draft letter is > below. Suggestions for improvement appreciated. From what I have seen for years on many web sites and in many written docuemtns, your compliance can take the following form, instead of putting up the (R) symbol on the page: "All trademarks not owned by Roger Clarke that appear on this site are the property of their respective owners, who may or may not be affiliated with, connected to, or sponsored by Roger Clarke." I presume that approach is to allow your writing to be clear and uncluttered with needless (R) symbols. You will often see it used in the user's manual for a multi-supplier product, i.e. a networking system implemented by Apple that connects to Microsoft products. They do not write Microsoft (R) five hundred times in the document. Rather, a waiver similar to the above is published in the foreward section of the document. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services You got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda. -- George W Bush From rick at praxis.com.au Fri Jan 18 11:25:15 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:25:15 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <478FF1EB.9090703@praxis.com.au> Roger Clarke wrote: > I've received a 'nastygram' purporting to be on behalf of Telstra/Sensis. One has to ask: What on earth would Telstra Yellow Pages hope to gain by taking further action if you did not comply with their request? If they proceeded with court action and possibly claimed some sort of damages, Roger, you would have a great PR win. The negative publicity generated by such a move would be well worth not doing anything ;) You could raise the point that there are some 100,000 other sites on the Internet in a similar situation of non-compliance and would fully expect Telstra to be making similar threats against them all. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services You got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda. -- George W Bush From Fred.Pilcher at act.gov.au Fri Jan 18 11:31:35 2008 From: Fred.Pilcher at act.gov.au (Pilcher, Fred) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:31:35 +1100 Subject: [LINK] speaking of do not call registers... In-Reply-To: <6hhge8$14382o@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> References: <6hhge8$13pjo6@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net><200801171559.m0HFx95G023041@ah.net> <6hhge8$14382o@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C7209731EE3@cal066.act.gov.au> Jan wrote: > If you're wondering if it's worth complaining to the DNC > folks, stop wondering. I've complained three times, with very > limited info, although I'm getting better at being nice and > wheedling something out of them. Usually call centre people > are naive and will tell you some things, but NEVER their > phone number. That must be part of their training, even > though by law they are required to supply it according to ACMA. > > Anyway, all three complaints have had immediate follow-up > from the initial form and further from ACMA, indicating that > the companies I was complaining about were under their > investigation already. So having more data about breaches of > the DNC is more ammunition to fine the offenders. I've had a similar experience. They said that the company I reported has been the subject of several complaints, but they can't track them down. The Chinese call centre claimed that the company (can't remember the name) was in Brisbane but ACMA can't find any record of them. For the record, I got my first mobile phone spam yesterday from a mob purporing to be Sports Bet or some such. Happy new year, all. Fred ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From josh at email.nu Fri Jan 18 11:33:58 2008 From: josh at email.nu (Josh Rowe) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:33:58 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080118003358.GA3452@whim.sanctum.com.au> I have received a similar letter regarding CAUBE-AU's use of the term YellowPages here: http://www.caube.oro.au/optout.htm I have not responded yet. Josh -- http://josh.id.au/ On Fri, Jan 18, 2008 at 10:44:22AM +1100, Roger Clarke wrote: > I've received a 'nastygram' purporting to be on behalf of Telstra/Sensis. > > It says that the web-page at > http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ISRes/AISPlug > "represents out clients' trade mark, in a manner which is not correct". > > I am requested to: > - "use the [R inside a circle] symbol next to the trade mark ..."; > - "use the name of the product as a noun (eg "the Yellow Pages > [R inside a circle] Directory". > > The final paras. are at the pleasant end of nastygram expression. > > I'd be interested in your thoughts. > > After you've worked out what *you* think about it, my draft letter is > below. Suggestions for improvement appreciated. > > _________________________________________________________________________ > > > Mr Bruce J. Akhurst > Group Managing Director > Telstra Media Services and CEO Sensis Pty Ltd > 242 Exhibition St > Melbourne VIC 3000 > > Dear Mr Akhurst > > Re: Use of the Term 'Yellow Pages' > > I've received a letter dated 18 December 2007 from a Partner of a law > firm Piper Alderman in Adelaide, purporting to be acting on your > behalf, and requesting that I insert a symbol into a web-page. The > letter was incorrectly addressed to the facilities provider rather > than to the content provider, and hence took nearly a month to reach > me. > > The web-page in question dates from 1995, and has not been amended > since March 1996. > > It offered a directory of 'Electronic Communications Resources' for > Information Systems (IS) Academics across the world, through the > Association for Information Systems. In a section entitled 'Ways of > Finding IS People and IS Departments', it included: > "For more general resources, try: > * the world fax number directory; > * Telstra's (Australian) White Pages; > * Telstra's (Australian) Yellow Pages (the first commercial yellow > pages in the world on the net)." > > The site as a whole contains a couple of thousand pages, and has > accumulated something approaching 25 million hits; but the hit-count > on this particular page has contributed a minuscule proportion of > them, and most recent hits would doubtless be merely search-engine > robots. > > I find it absolutely extraordinary that your company would fund a > partner in a law firm to waste time and money searching out harmless > pages and writing 'nastygrams' of this kind - energy that could > instead be invested in improvements to the product. > > Note that the use of the term on the page is quite general, and there > is no evidence of any attempt to appropriate the term, nor to benefit > commercially or otherwise from its use, nor to denigrate the IP > owner. In fact it promotes your site, and speaks in a complimentary > manner about it. Under the circumstances, the letter is not only > inappropriate, but oppressive. > > Yours sincerely, etc. > > > -- > Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ > > Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA > Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 > mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ > > Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University > Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong > Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From grove at zeta.org.au Fri Jan 18 12:00:30 2008 From: grove at zeta.org.au (grove at zeta.org.au) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 12:00:30 +1100 (EST) Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: <20080118003358.GA3452@whim.sanctum.com.au> References: <20080118003358.GA3452@whim.sanctum.com.au> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jan 2008, Josh Rowe wrote: > I have received a similar letter regarding CAUBE-AU's use of the term YellowPages here: http://www.caube.oro.au/optout.htm > > I have not responded yet. This almost sounds like some sort of trolling by some idjit in an office somewhere, who has not enough to do during the Silly Season..... :/ rachel -- Rachel Polanskis Kingswood, Greater Western Sydney, Australia grove at zeta.org.au http://www.zeta.org.au/~grove/grove.html The price of greatness is responsibility. From link at todd.inoz.com Fri Jan 18 12:47:29 2008 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 12:47:29 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: <20080118003358.GA3452@whim.sanctum.com.au> References: <20080118003358.GA3452@whim.sanctum.com.au> Message-ID: <200801180150.m0I1oEmH010629@ah.net> At 11:33 18/01/2008, you wrote: >I have received a similar letter regarding CAUBE-AU's use of the >term YellowPages here: http://www.caube.oro.au/optout.htm > >I have not responded yet. You call it "Sydney Yellow Pages" I don't belive Sensis/Telstra has registered that as a trade mark and I don't belive it dilutes their name :) If anything it encourages people to use the Telstra/Sensis product and is not miscontrued. From link at todd.inoz.com Fri Jan 18 12:42:38 2008 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 12:42:38 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200801180150.m0I1oEmF010629@ah.net> At 10:44 18/01/2008, Roger Clarke wrote: >The web-page in question dates from 1995, and has not been amended >since March 1996. Then it requires no amendment. Just annex the letter :) I also think that the registration of the Trade Mark in it's current form (as they describe takes place after you originally published it, so they are asking you to change history simply because there is an element of "edit" capacity. Have they written to the Sydney Morning Hearld ask asked them to change the printed archive copies of the Newspaper that refer to Yellow Pages from 1957? This is so ORWELLIAN "Ministry Of Truth" it's not funny. Evidently they haven't had an issue with it for the last 12 years and lets face it, Yellow Pages might appear to them to be a trade mark, but Yellow Pages also refers to a suite of Unix User Admin and Auth tools. If they don't want Google ranking by external links, then fine, Roger, Add a paragraph that provides a copy of the letter, and remove any references to Telstra. Strangely I notice they didn't demand that you add a (TM) and (R) to the use of TELSTRA and they didn't demand you change it to SENSIS! Hypocritical at the least! Remove the links, but keep the refs. They won't get the hits, they won't see them in their logs and people will be inconvenienced but if you explain why, they'll just be irate at Telstra and find another means of searching. Google works pretty damn well these days! I find more phone numbers there than anywhere and rarely use Telstra/Sensis whatever they want to call themselves, resources at all. From eric.scheid at ironclad.net.au Fri Jan 18 14:34:54 2008 From: eric.scheid at ironclad.net.au (Eric Scheid) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:34:54 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 18/1/08 10:44 AM, "Roger Clarke" wrote: > I've received a 'nastygram' purporting to be on behalf of Telstra/Sensis. you're not the only one: http://www.kn.com.au/networks/2007/11/unauthorised-us.html e. From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Fri Jan 18 13:22:12 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:22:12 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: <20080118003358.GA3452@whim.sanctum.com.au> References: <20080118003358.GA3452@whim.sanctum.com.au> Message-ID: At 11:33 +1100 18/1/08, Josh Rowe wrote: >I have received a similar letter regarding CAUBE-AU's use of the >term YellowPages here: http://www.caube.oro.au/optout.htm Boy, they really take a strategic approach to selecting their targets, don't they? So far we're aware of: (1) a significant public interest organisation - CAUBE (2) a small management consultancy whose site has ten mentions of the term, most in chatty contexts: http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=%22Yellow+Pages%22+site:anecdote.com.au&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 (3) a stroppy advocate who: - has been a researcher on and consultant in Internet infrastructure, process and growing pains since the very beginning - is an Associate of the 'Unlocking IP' research programme in Graham Greenleaf's Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre at UNSW - knows enough about the law to do a decent first draft - knows who to ask in order to make the draft a lot better (i.e. my colleagues at UNSW, and link!) Thanks to all linkers for the valuable responses! It'll go out today. I was also advised to cc. the lawyer, rather than be seen to ignore him. -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From rick at praxis.com.au Fri Jan 18 15:01:23 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:01:23 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47902493.4090702@praxis.com.au> Eric Scheid wrote: > On 18/1/08 10:44 AM, "Roger Clarke" wrote: > >> I've received a 'nastygram' purporting to be on behalf of Telstra/Sensis. > > you're not the only one: > > http://www.kn.com.au/networks/2007/11/unauthorised-us.html The PDF document that Earl Mardle rec'd is about the same as the other one I dug up. Mass duplicate and mass threat. Great scheme. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Once a new technology starts rolling, if you're not part of the steamroller, you're part of the road. -- Stewart Brand From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Fri Jan 18 15:12:52 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:12:52 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On 18/1/08 10:44 AM, "Roger Clarke" wrote: >> I've received a 'nastygram' purporting to be on behalf of Telstra/Sensis. At 14:34 +1100 18/1/08, Eric Scheid wrote: >you're not the only one: >http://www.kn.com.au/networks/2007/11/unauthorised-us.html 90 seconds before receiving that, I posted this summary: http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/II/Trademarks.html So I had to do an instant update, di'n'I?! -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From rick at praxis.com.au Fri Jan 18 15:26:55 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:26:55 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Pascal's Wager applied to GLobal CLimate Change Message-ID: <47902A8F.9000000@praxis.com.au> Linkers, I started looking around the interesting website posted easlier by Mr Scheid (regarding Yellow Pages), and found this little gem. The video clip sums up quite nicely the consequences of doing nothing about GCC (and being wrong) vs doing something perhaps costly (and being wrong). How does this apply to Link? Reasoned analysis like this is easily disseminated now like never before. Public opinion can be better informed and force policy changes like never before. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Once a new technology starts rolling, if you're not part of the steamroller, you're part of the road. -- Stewart Brand From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Fri Jan 18 15:49:27 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:49:27 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Pascal's Wager applied to GLobal CLimate Change In-Reply-To: <47902A8F.9000000@praxis.com.au> References: <47902A8F.9000000@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <6hhge8$148taf@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> At 03:26 PM 18/01/2008, Rick Welykochy wrote: > > >The video clip sums up quite nicely the consequences of >doing nothing about GCC (and being wrong) vs doing something >perhaps costly (and being wrong). > >How does this apply to Link? Reasoned analysis like this is >easily disseminated now like never before. Public opinion can >be better informed and force policy changes like never before. Does anyone else remember Type I and Type II errors? One is commission [doing something] and one is omission [doing nothing]. This was part of the data analysis that was factored into statistical effect margins, right? Racking brain. RE GCC, if we use resources [do something] to mitigate the problem, seems to me we end up with some good outcomes, almost regardless: more food, better energy that will last longer than the loss of big oil, not to mention the climate change avoidance. If we don't use resources, or continue to use them in the wrong way [ignore the problem by doing nothing], then the likelihood of the trends continuing are high and no benefits are realised. This stuff makes my brain hurt. haven't watched the video yet -- in progress. Jan Semi-finalist - Amazon Breakout Novelist Award 2008: The Truck - A baby-boomer nostalgia murder mystery http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00121WDVA - Read and rate now! Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Writing Lesson #54: Learn to love revision. Think of it as polishing the silver for guests. - JW, May, 2007 _ __________________ _ From rick at praxis.com.au Fri Jan 18 16:15:11 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:15:11 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Pascal's Wager applied to GLobal CLimate Change In-Reply-To: <6hhge8$148taf@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> References: <47902A8F.9000000@praxis.com.au> <6hhge8$148taf@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <479035DF.9060405@praxis.com.au> Jan Whitaker wrote: > RE GCC, if we use resources [do something] to mitigate the problem, > seems to me we end up with some good outcomes, almost regardless: more > food, better energy that will last longer than the loss of big oil, not > to mention the climate change avoidance. If we don't use resources, or > continue to use them in the wrong way [ignore the problem by doing > nothing], then the likelihood of the trends continuing are high and no > benefits are realised. All covered by the video lecturer. I've always thought along the same lines. If GCC is not a problem, but we still expend $$$ COST cleaning up our "mess", then the best we've done is spent some needed resources becoming less dependent on fossil fuels. The worst case scenario in this case is a global recession. Not nice, but manageable. If GCC is a problem, and we do nothing, the scenario is a doomsday one. The effects of unchecked GCC are now well known and the impacts are social, environmental, poltical, health, economic, ... etc. possibly leading to resource wars and massive famine and disease. Lovely scenario compared to the worst case above. The choice always has been and always will be self-evident. > This stuff makes my brain hurt. Think more! Think more! The more you use it, the less it hurts. As well, the video makes it quite simple. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Once a new technology starts rolling, if you're not part of the steamroller, you're part of the road. -- Stewart Brand From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Fri Jan 18 16:12:53 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:12:53 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: VIP-L: CDMA closure postponed ! Message-ID: <6hhge8$1497cg@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> >Government postpones CDMA network closure. > >The Federal Government has postponed the closure of Telstra's CDMA >network planned for this month. >The telco was preparing to end the network in 10 days, swapping over >to its newer Next G Network. >An audit of the Next G's performance compared with CDMA coverage has >been carried out. >Federal Communications Minister Stephen Conroy says at present he is >not in a position to declare the newer network is equivalent to the >existing CDMA network. >Mr Conroy says the newer network is not up to scratch due to existing >problems with phone handsets. >He says many customers are being given new phones that do not provide >equal coverage. >"I have made it clear to Telstra that it should continue do >everything possible to ensure that customers are using the correct >Next G equipment," he said. >"This should include replacing handsets at no financial penalty." >Telstra has two weeks to advise the Government on how it plans to >rectify the problems. Semi-finalist - Amazon Breakout Novelist Award 2008: The Truck - A baby-boomer nostalgia murder mystery http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00121WDVA - Read and rate now! Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Writing Lesson #54: Learn to love revision. Think of it as polishing the silver for guests. - JW, May, 2007 _ __________________ _ From lealink at viking.org.au Fri Jan 18 16:22:23 2008 From: lealink at viking.org.au (Lea de Groot) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:22:23 +1000 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080118152223285564.cdb17ce9@viking.org.au> On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:44:22 +1100, Roger Clarke wrote: > I am requested to: > - "use the [R inside a circle] symbol next to the trade mark ..."; > - "use the name of the product as a noun (eg "the Yellow Pages > [R inside a circle] Directory". So... they want you to update the hyperlink to be http://www.yellowpages®.com.au ? It sounds to me like what they are asking for :) :whistles and looks innocent: I thought the letter was well thought out - but I wonder if your page predates their trademark? If so, it would be worth mentioning. Lea -- Lea de Groot Brisbane From rick at praxis.com.au Fri Jan 18 16:53:40 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:53:40 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: <20080118152223285564.cdb17ce9@viking.org.au> References: <20080118152223285564.cdb17ce9@viking.org.au> Message-ID: <47903EE4.8080607@praxis.com.au> Lea de Groot wrote: > On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:44:22 +1100, Roger Clarke wrote: >> I am requested to: >> - "use the [R inside a circle] symbol next to the trade mark ..."; >> - "use the name of the product as a noun (eg "the Yellow Pages >> [R inside a circle] Directory". > > So... they want you to update the hyperlink to be > http://www.yellowpages®.com.au ? > It sounds to me like what they are asking for :) > :whistles and looks innocent: > > I thought the letter was well thought out - but I wonder if your page > predates their trademark? If so, it would be worth mentioning. Here is a snippet of "legal illogic" from one of the nasrtygrams: "our clients appreciate that any infringement of our clients' rights by you is likely to have been unintended. You are requested to remove all references to "Yellow Pages" or any trade mark which is substantially identical or deceptively similar to our clients' registered trade marks within the next 14 days and to cease use of those trade marks in the future. If this is attended to, our clients do not intend to take any further steps with respect to past infringement." Talk about silencing dissent! According to the above, one cannot ever even discuss or mention Yellow Pages (R) in print without threat of action being taken. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Once a new technology starts rolling, if you're not part of the steamroller, you're part of the road. -- Stewart Brand From lealink at viking.org.au Fri Jan 18 17:03:49 2008 From: lealink at viking.org.au (Lea de Groot) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:03:49 +1000 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: <47903EE4.8080607@praxis.com.au> References: <20080118152223285564.cdb17ce9@viking.org.au> <47903EE4.8080607@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <20080118160349009398.f4d57c35@viking.org.au> On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:53:40 +1100, Rick Welykochy wrote: > Talk about silencing dissent! According to the above, one cannot ever > even discuss or mention Yellow Pages (R) in print without threat of > action being taken. Yes, the belief of some 'trademark holders' that you cannot even mention their trademark without their specific permission is so odd. As an internet publisher, I have had the occasional approach from businesses who don't want to be mentioned and demand to know 'how dare I use their trademark'. Of course I immediately remove the mention, as requested, but... :shakes head: - the lack of foresight that I am sending them business and the lack of understanding of just what a trade mark is and registering it doesn't give them an exclusive use of the words! Well, I can understand it from a small business person, although I hope for better, but to get such a complaint from a solicitor! Very sad :( Lea From link at todd.inoz.com Fri Jan 18 16:56:41 2008 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:56:41 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200801180604.m0I64R14015827@ah.net> Um you might like to also go back to http://www.integral.inoz.com/ at the bottom of the page and links to the letters I got abut Integral Energy. They wanted me to sign a letter and fax it back, but in doing so I'd never be able to write them a cheque or pay their bills again, so I thought better of their ignorance. There Lawyers Mallesons wrote the followig letter http://www.integral.inoz.com/mallesons-01.html http://www.integral.inoz.com/mallesons-02.html At 15:12 18/01/2008, Roger Clarke wrote: >>On 18/1/08 10:44 AM, "Roger Clarke" wrote: >>> I've received a 'nastygram' purporting to be on behalf of Telstra/Sensis. > >At 14:34 +1100 18/1/08, Eric Scheid wrote: >>you're not the only one: >>http://www.kn.com.au/networks/2007/11/unauthorised-us.html > >90 seconds before receiving that, I posted this summary: >http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/II/Trademarks.html > >So I had to do an instant update, di'n'I?! > >-- >Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ > >Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA > Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 >mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ > >Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University >Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong >Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW >_______________________________________________ >Link mailing list >Link at mailman.anu.edu.au >http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Fri Jan 18 16:50:25 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:50:25 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: VIP-L: CDMA closure postponed ! In-Reply-To: <6hhge8$1497cg@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> References: <6hhge8$1497cg@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> Message-ID: At 16:12 +1100 18/1/08, Jan Whitaker wrote: >>Government postpones CDMA network closure. >>The Federal Government has postponed the closure of Telstra's CDMA >>network planned for this month. >>The telco was preparing to end the network in 10 days, swapping over >>to its newer Next G Network. ... That silly 'numbers dropping off' ad aired again during the cricket earlier this afternoon. (Honestly, it was only while I was walking through the lounge that I noticed, Your Honour. Who said home-working was a bad thing). -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Fri Jan 18 18:04:41 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 18:04:41 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: <20080118160349009398.f4d57c35@viking.org.au> References: <20080118152223285564.cdb17ce9@viking.org.au> <47903EE4.8080607@praxis.com.au> <20080118160349009398.f4d57c35@viking.org.au> Message-ID: At 16:03 +1000 18/1/08, Lea de Groot wrote: >Yes, the belief of some 'trademark holders' that you cannot even >mention their trademark without their specific permission is so odd. >As an internet publisher, I have had the occasional approach from >businesses who don't want to be mentioned and demand to know 'how dare >I use their trademark'. Of course I immediately remove the mention, as >requested, ... Why? Are you aware of any basis in law for them to even request, let alone demand, removal? In the current case (which I appreciate may be different from the instances you're talking about), "The lawyer's letter failed to provide a precise, or indeed any, explanation in terms of Australian copyright legislation and case law, of what asserted rights the lawyer is seeking to exercise on [its client's] behalf and how it is claimed that those rights are being breached. " Do you ask them for the precise information? (Depending on the situation, they could have a case. But I doubt it). Not to do so creates a rod for your own back. -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From adrian at creative.net.au Fri Jan 18 18:51:19 2008 From: adrian at creative.net.au (Adrian Chadd) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:51:19 +0900 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: VIP-L: CDMA closure postponed ! In-Reply-To: References: <6hhge8$1497cg@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <20080118075119.GA26210@skywalker.creative.net.au> On Fri, Jan 18, 2008, Roger Clarke wrote: > That silly 'numbers dropping off' ad aired again during the cricket > earlier this afternoon. > > (Honestly, it was only while I was walking through the lounge that I > noticed, Your Honour. Who said home-working was a bad thing). And I was wondering about the legality of that. Is there a policy on retaining number allocations after a client is disconnected? I always seem to find that on mobile phone handset numbers. Adrian From lealink at viking.org.au Fri Jan 18 18:42:20 2008 From: lealink at viking.org.au (Lea de Groot) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 17:42:20 +1000 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: References: <20080118152223285564.cdb17ce9@viking.org.au> <47903EE4.8080607@praxis.com.au> <20080118160349009398.f4d57c35@viking.org.au> Message-ID: <20080118174220125533.aebbaa6b@viking.org.au> On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 18:04:41 +1100, Roger Clarke wrote: > Why? Its a business directory. If they don't want to be in it, its no skin off my nose. That they have nothing to lose and everything to gain from inclusion is something I have learnt not to bother pointing out to them. And, yes, I foolishly had the argument the first couple of times - I learnt better. > Are you aware of any basis in law for them to even request, let alone > demand, removal? I don't think they have a leg to stand on. They can't demand I refrain from talking about them. (and, I'm not even reviewing them, just listing name and contact details) I consider it a matter of politeness - if they don't want to be in there, I will not force them. Their competitors can have the business instead And note - in some cases I was freely linking to their website, too! Ignorance. Amazing. :) But, really, these foolish people are the rare exception. Most of the business people I discuss it with are ecstatic to be listed and appreciate the business I am pushing towards them. Lea From kim.holburn at gmail.com Fri Jan 18 19:46:02 2008 From: kim.holburn at gmail.com (Kim Holburn) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:46:02 +0100 Subject: [LINK] Pascal's Wager applied to GLobal CLimate Change In-Reply-To: <47902A8F.9000000@praxis.com.au> References: <47902A8F.9000000@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <8A62E604-7230-4AA6-86D8-9032F756C4EF@gmail.com> Here are 2 comments I have made on that video (anti-pascal's wager?): The costs of responding to global warming: 1) In many ways the costs associated with responding to global warming would probably actually save us money and make businesses more efficient. (Using less oil more efficiently?) So they may not actually end up being costs. 2) The other thing about the costs of responding to global warming is that the main effects, especially initially, would fall onto the big energy companies. ie people might use less fossil fuel. While big energy might not in the long run lose out, they would certainly have to change a lot of things about the way they do business and in the short term their profit might just fall. This is why they are so resistant to the idea of global warming/climate change. On 2008/Jan/18, at 5:26 AM, Rick Welykochy wrote: > Linkers, > > I started looking around the interesting website posted easlier > by Mr Scheid (regarding Yellow Pages), and found this little gem. > > > > The video clip sums up quite nicely the consequences of > doing nothing about GCC (and being wrong) vs doing something > perhaps costly (and being wrong). > > How does this apply to Link? Reasoned analysis like this is > easily disseminated now like never before. Public opinion can > be better informed and force policy changes like never before. > > > cheers > rickw > > > > -- > _________________________________ > Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services > > Once a new technology starts rolling, if you're not part of the > steamroller, you're part of the road. > -- Stewart Brand > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link at mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link -- Kim Holburn IT Network & Security Consultant Ph: +39 06 855 4294 M: +39 3494957443 mailto:kim at holburn.net aim://kimholburn skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny. -- Lloyd Biggle, Jr. Analog, Apr 1961 From Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au Fri Jan 18 21:05:07 2008 From: Jeremy at Malcolm.id.au (Jeremy Malcolm) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 19:05:07 +0900 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E549D60-0F7E-42D0-AE2A-7DF49E9C1FC1@Malcolm.id.au> On 18/01/2008, at 8:44 AM, Roger Clarke wrote: > Note that the use of the term on the page is quite general, and > there is no evidence of any attempt to appropriate the term, nor to > benefit commercially or otherwise from its use, nor to denigrate the > IP owner. In fact it promotes your site, and speaks in a > complimentary manner about it. Under the circumstances, the letter > is not only inappropriate, but oppressive. Roger, My wife received a similar nastygram from Piper Alderman on behalf of Telstra a year or so back, regarding her "Comedian Yellow Pages" at http://www.comedydownunder.com/aussie/yp/ . The letter we sent in response: (begins) > I refer to your letter of 20 November 2006 (received today) > addressed to Dominica Corless (now Malcolm) in relation to the > alleged unauthorised use of your clients' registered trade mark > "Yellow Pages". I am instructed to reply to that letter on her > behalf. > > The allegations contained in your letter are denied, for reasons > which, without limitation, include the following: > > 1. Mrs Malcolm is not aware of any registered trade mark of your > client's that is infringed by her use of the ordinary > English words "Yellow Pages" in the context in which they > are used on her Web site. > > For example, the specific mark referred to in your letter, no > 545667, covers as you have noted telephone books, telephone > directories and business directories. > > The impugned pages of the Comedy Down Under Web site are not > a telephone directory or business directory in any sense. > The pages are more in the nature of an encyclopaedia which > contain biographical information on comedians and comedy > groups. Listings are unpaid and do not, except incidentally > in some cases, contain contact information for the comedians > listed. > > Should there be some other specific class of goods or services > in respect of which your client has a registered trade mark > that you allege has been infringed by Mrs Malcolm, then I > would be obliged if you would point that specific mark out as > I am at a loss to find it. > > 2. The suggestion in paragraph 8 of your letter that Mrs Malcolm's > usage of the words "Yellow Pages" on the Comedy Down Under Web > site are likely to mislead members of the public into believing > that there is an association between her organisation [sic] and > your clients, is with respect, far-fetched. If you have any > data to demonstrate that any such confusion exists or has > existed, then I would be obliged if you would provide it. > > Even so, and certainly without any admission, Mrs Malcolm is > willing to preface the relevant pages of her Web site with a > statement to the effect that there is no affiliation between > herself and either of your clients. > > In light of the foregoing, my client does not intend to cease using > the words "Yellow Pages" on her Web site in the context in which > they are presently employed, and have been continuously so employed > for approximately seven years. > > Should any further communication be necessary, please direct it to > this address by email, and not to the dominica_c at yahoo.com email > address or the Safety Bay postal address, neither of which are > regularly monitored by Mrs Malcolm. > > Please note however that Mrs Malcolm reserves the right to post > copies of communications between us on this issue to her Web site > and/or to other public fora for the interest of activists in the > areas of online freedom of expression, intellectual property reform, > restrictive trade practices, and corporate oppression of youth and > alternative culture. (ends) -- Jeremy Malcolm LLB (Hons) B Com Internet and Open Source lawyer, IT consultant, actor host -t NAPTR 1.0.8.0.3.1.2.9.8.1.6.e164.org|awk -F! '{print $3}' From peter at ratbags.com Fri Jan 18 22:35:29 2008 From: peter at ratbags.com (Peter Bowditch) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 22:35:29 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: <20080118160349009398.f4d57c35@viking.org.au> References: , <47903EE4.8080607@praxis.com.au>, <20080118160349009398.f4d57c35@viking.org.au> Message-ID: <479129B1.25726.2D55CA36@peter.ratbags.com> Lea said: > On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:53:40 +1100, Rick Welykochy wrote: > > Talk about silencing dissent! According to the above, one cannot ever > > even discuss or mention Yellow Pages (R) in print without threat of > > action being taken. > > Yes, the belief of some 'trademark holders' that you cannot even > mention their trademark without their specific permission is so odd. > As an internet publisher, I have had the occasional approach from > businesses who don't want to be mentioned and demand to know 'how dare > I use their trademark'. Of course I immediately remove the mention, as > requested, but... :shakes head: - the lack of foresight that I am > sending them business and the lack of understanding of just what a > trade mark is and registering it doesn't give them an exclusive use of > the words! > Well, I can understand it from a small business person, although I hope > for better, but to get such a complaint from a solicitor! Very sad :( It is the latest ploy to attack freedom of speech. Here a couple of cases of it being tried out on me. http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/nutritionforlife.htm http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/drtrademark.htm -- Peter Bowditch The Millenium Project - http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud - http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics - http://www.skeptics.com.au From gdt at gdt.id.au Fri Jan 18 22:53:31 2008 From: gdt at gdt.id.au (Glen Turner) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 22:23:31 +1030 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1200657211.5902.43.camel@andromache> On Fri, 2008-01-18 at 10:44 +1100, Roger Clarke wrote: > I've received a 'nastygram' purporting to be on behalf of Telstra/Sensis. Sensis are operating under the belief that they need to defend improper use of the trade mark to show that it has not become a generic phrase, and thus undeserving of trade mark protection. Rather oddly, Sensis require the use of Yellow Pages as a noun, which is commonly seen as increasing the odds of generic use, rather than using the trade mark as an adjective. They will simply file your response and keep it should they need to demonstrate trade mark defence in a future action which claims "yellow pages" is generic. Cheers, Glen From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Fri Jan 18 23:31:33 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 23:31:33 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: <1200657211.5902.43.camel@andromache> References: <1200657211.5902.43.camel@andromache> Message-ID: <6hhge8$14f2ao@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> At 10:53 PM 18/01/2008, you wrote: >future action which claims "yellow pages" is generic. but they way you state it: yellow pages -- *IS* generic. The book has yellow pages. Yeah, so? If you wanted to get around their silly game, one could identify it as "the business directory with pages that aren't white." No mention of a 'trade mark'. In fact you could copyright that. ;-) Jan Semi-finalist - Amazon Breakout Novelist Award 2008: The Truck - A baby-boomer nostalgia murder mystery http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00121WDVA - Read and rate now! Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Writing Lesson #54: Learn to love revision. Think of it as polishing the silver for guests. - JW, May, 2007 _ __________________ _ From gramadan at umd.com.au Fri Jan 18 23:57:49 2008 From: gramadan at umd.com.au (Geoffrey Ramadan) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 23:57:49 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Expert advise sought please... In-Reply-To: <478FE1C3.6020903@lannet.com.au> References: <478E8F8C.3030800@lannet.com.au> <478F09B9.1040401@umd.com.au> <478FE1C3.6020903@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <4790A24D.7090208@umd.com.au> Howard FYI. RFID solution for parts tracking being developed by Boeing. http://www.rfidjournal.com/article/articleview/3850/1/1/ "Boeing Approves Intelleflex Chip, Weighs Higher-Memory Fujitsu Tag With the silicon needed for a 64-kilobit parts tag finally ready, the company is getting closer to achieving its vision for a parts-tagged plane. Jan. 14, 2008?Though dogged by delays, Boeing's initiative to employ passive RFID tags to track the maintenance and repair history of parts for its upcoming Dreamliner 787 family of airplanes may be ready for takeoff by mid-2008, according to Ken Porad, program manager of the automatic-identification program at Boeing Commercial Airplanes Group." This technology will not doubt have spin off into many other industries Reg Geoffrey Ramadan B.E.(Elec) Chairman, Automatic Data Capture Association (www.adca.com.au) and Managing Director, Unique Micro Design (www.umd.com.au) Howard Lowndes wrote: > Geoff, thanks for that, and to all the others that commented. I will > take all comments to Nepal and take the idea further from then. It > may be a while before I can report back on where we decide to go. > > At this stage I gather that they are suffering up to 11 hours of power > outage per day, so I had better get a new battery in my lappy - if I > can !!! > > > Geoffrey Ramadan wrote: >> Howard >> >> Firstly my general approach to customers asking for RFID solutions is >> to try and talk them out of it! I now that RFID has a very narrow >> "fitness for purpose" and that many RFID inquiries we get asked >> about, are really suited to other forms of data capture technology, >> which is what I suspect here. >> >> As you want to hold the database with the product and you want it >> human readable as well. My first option would be to use a 2D barcode >> printed via a thermal transfer label printer. This will allow you to >> print the barcode and any related text/image on the same label. The >> choice of thermal ribbon and label material will be important to >> ensure longevity. (typically a wax/resin ribbon and some plastic >> label like Polyester which is popular as an asset label) >> >> If you are not familiar with 2D barcodes, check out: >> http://www.denso-wave.com/qrcode/index-e.html >> >> There are different symbologies to choose from, but I prefer >> Datamatrix or QR code. You can encode more that 3000 characters with >> Datamatrix and 7000 with QR Code. 2D barcodes also have inbuilt error >> detection. For example upto 30% of a QR barcode can be destroyed, yet >> still readable. >> >> You might want to encode the data using XML tags. You then then use a >> 2D barcode scanner with say a keyboard wedge interface (which simply >> types the data via the keyboard buffer of your system). >> >> Only if barcoding was deemed to be not suitable would I consider RFID >> technology. >> >> If you need assistance in sourcing these technologies, please let me >> know and I can advise off list. >> >> Reg >> Geoffrey Ramadan B.E.(Elec) >> Chairman, Automatic Data Capture Association (www.adca.com.au) >> and >> Managing Director, Unique Micro Design (www.umd.com.au) >> >> >> Howard Lowndes wrote: >>> ...esp from Geoff R. >>> >>> I'm thinking RFID here rather than barcodes, but their ID code would >>> also need to be human readable, just in case a reader is not available. >>> >>> This is for my Nepal project and I have doubts about the lifespan of >>> barcodes in the working environment. >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> Subject: From Alex another NEW Idea to investigate >>> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 17:08:02 +0530 >>> >>> Dear Howard, Ken and friends >>> Greetings. I have one more NEW idea for which I need your support and >>> advise as it is again linked with communication, software and digital >>> numbering etc. which is NOT my field at all. >>> Here the idea and vision: >>> I want that every battery of each solar PV system we will install over >>> the next years (as well as the ones we have installed since we started >>> work in Humla) to be registered and identified in regard to its size, >>> capacity, technology, origin, brand, location installed (Lat. Long. >>> Altitude), installation date, system installed with (SHS, cluster >>> system >>> etc...), owner name, maintenance done...etc >>> I think of a bar code (http://www.barcodesinc.com/generator/) that can >>> store all this information which can be printed with a printer on a >>> label, such as e.g.: http://www.barcodesinc.com/zebra/mz220.htm . >>> With a >>> bar code scanner (http://www.barcodesinc.com/generator/) the >>> information >>> can be read, recorded, stored and downloaded into a data bank at any >>> time, even after years. In this way we can keep a detailed track of >>> each >>> battery, and can monitor its life cycle. In particular I intend to find >>> that when a battery is "dead" where it came from so that we can >>> understand its conditions it has been working under. This should in >>> the >>> long run also be the main tool for a battery recycling project I >>> have in >>> mind since quite some time. >>> Thus my question is: >>> 1) Is that something you think is generally possible and feasible...or >>> is this just a crazy idea...? >>> 2) What would be the initial equipment, hardware wise and software >>> wise, >>> we would need to consider. (see above web sites of possible >>> hardware...) >>> 3) What could be the difficult parts of such a project....What are the >>> advantages and disadvantages...? >>> 4) Do you have a better idea how it could be done...easier and cheaper >>> and more reliable...? >>> 5) What do you think how much information can be stored in a bar >>> code...? >>> 6) any other suggestions...? >>> >>> Hear from you >>> Cheers >>> Alex >>> >>> >> > From rick at praxis.com.au Fri Jan 18 23:58:44 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 23:58:44 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Pascal's Wager applied to GLobal CLimate Change In-Reply-To: <8A62E604-7230-4AA6-86D8-9032F756C4EF@gmail.com> References: <47902A8F.9000000@praxis.com.au> <8A62E604-7230-4AA6-86D8-9032F756C4EF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4790A284.5070901@praxis.com.au> Kim Holburn wrote: > 2) The other thing about the costs of responding to global warming is > that the main effects, especially initially, would fall onto the big > energy companies. ie people might use less fossil fuel. While big energy > might not in the long run lose out, they would certainly have to change > a lot of things about the way they do business and in the short term > their profit might just fall. This is why they are so resistant to the > idea of global warming/climate change. Indeedy .... as Al Gore's research indicates (both in An Uncomfortable Truth the movie, and The Assault on Reason, the book) there has been a concerted effort made by vested interests to discredit global warming theories and cause confusion in the minds of the public. This disinformation campaign is backed 100% by the Bush administration. Research has shown that there is practically ZERO support from the scientific community for the dissenting view on climate change, and yet because of the disinformation campaign, some 50 to 60% of the public has doubts (had doubts in 2004) in their minds. This is obviously changing now, much to the chagrin of the global dealers in fossil fuel based energy supplies. They will cling on to their profit- making ventures until the last drop is squeezed out of the rock. As well, they will continue to support the disinformation campaign with big $$$. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Once a new technology starts rolling, if you're not part of the steamroller, you're part of the road. -- Stewart Brand From link at todd.inoz.com Sat Jan 19 00:37:04 2008 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 00:37:04 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: References: <20080118152223285564.cdb17ce9@viking.org.au> <47903EE4.8080607@praxis.com.au> <20080118160349009398.f4d57c35@viking.org.au> Message-ID: <200801181337.m0IDbwwN026247@ah.net> Note: Telstra headed by US business hacker Note: US trend is threaten, sue, loose, make public apology, sue again Note: US Head of Telstra, Follows US Pattern on Trade Marks. I have to agree though, surely businesses want to be seen and talked about. Eventually people will be so scared to mention the name of Telstra (R) (TM) (C) that no one will bother. At 18:04 18/01/2008, Roger Clarke wrote: >At 16:03 +1000 18/1/08, Lea de Groot wrote: >>Yes, the belief of some 'trademark holders' that you cannot even >>mention their trademark without their specific permission is so odd. >>As an internet publisher, I have had the occasional approach from >>businesses who don't want to be mentioned and demand to know 'how dare >>I use their trademark'. Of course I immediately remove the mention, as >>requested, ... > >Why? > >Are you aware of any basis in law for them to even request, let >alone demand, removal? > >In the current case (which I appreciate may be different from the >instances you're talking about), "The lawyer's letter failed to >provide a precise, or indeed any, explanation in terms of Australian >copyright legislation and case law, of what asserted rights the >lawyer is seeking to exercise on [its client's] behalf and how it is >claimed that those rights are being breached. " > >Do you ask them for the precise information? > >(Depending on the situation, they could have a case. But I doubt it). > >Not to do so creates a rod for your own back. > >-- >Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ > >Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA > Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 >mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ > >Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University >Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong >Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW >_______________________________________________ >Link mailing list >Link at mailman.anu.edu.au >http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link From cas at taz.net.au Sat Jan 19 08:20:38 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 08:20:38 +1100 Subject: executable content vs plain data (was Re: [LINK] Pascal's Wager applied to GLobal CLimate Change) In-Reply-To: <47902A8F.9000000@praxis.com.au> References: <47902A8F.9000000@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <20080118212038.GF6828@taz.net.au> On Fri, Jan 18, 2008 at 03:26:55PM +1100, Rick Welykochy wrote: > Linkers, > > I started looking around the interesting website posted easlier > by Mr Scheid (regarding Yellow Pages), and found this little gem. > > > > The video clip sums up quite nicely the consequences of > doing nothing about GCC (and being wrong) vs doing something > perhaps costly (and being wrong). > > How does this apply to Link? Reasoned analysis like this is > easily disseminated now like never before. Public opinion can > be better informed and force policy changes like never before. another reason this is relevant to Link is the disturbing fact that the video is only available as a flash movie hosted on youtube. i.e. it's a program that you have to run rather than just video data in a file which can be played by any video player program (any player that has the right video codecs, of course). which means that you have to be willing to run unknown, untrustworthy, and untrustable executable programs in order to view it. or download it (which can be a difficult exercise in itself - youtube wants you to stream the video, not download it and view it at your leisure) and attempt to extract the video data from the executable. while i'm tempted to do just that in this particular case, it's generally not worth the bother (and isn't always successful anyway). it's disturbing not just because this particular video file is an executable flash program but because it is becoming, or has become, standard practice on today's internet. and, most likely, whoever made and uploaded the video to youtube didn't even think about the security implications, they thought only of the utility or convenience of youtube. this is a serious problem with youtube and similar sites - it encourages dangerously risky behaviour on the part of users, most of whom don't know any better and, now they've got used to the "convenience" of sites like youtube will refuse to be convinced that it's dangerous, that there are better, safer ways that such sites could - and should - work. e.g. one very easy way to improve the situation without being dependant on a single commercial site that has revenue protection and DRM control as part of its aims is for blogging software (such as the Typepad software, used by www.kn.com.au) to have a built-in torrent tracker, so that small and/or personal sites could easily host their own videos without being too worried about the bandwidth consumed if the video becomes popular. (for those who don't know how bit torrent and similar p2p protocols work, every downloader also becomes an uploader - sharing the parts of the file they already have with others who don't have that part yet. they'll do that for at least as long as they're downloading for, and most torrent users will continue to 'seed' the file until they've uploaded at least twice as much as they have downloaded...some torrent sites enforce such a ratio, with others it works on an honour system) the obvious extension to that is for individual blogs to join forces (as they do now with blogrolls) and agree to act as 'seeds' for each other's torrents, so a well connected blog will always have several (perhaps several dozen) seeds for their videos. craig -- craig sanders BOFH excuse #352: The cables are not the same length. From cas at taz.net.au Sat Jan 19 08:28:58 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 08:28:58 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Pascal's Wager applied to GLobal CLimate Change In-Reply-To: <8A62E604-7230-4AA6-86D8-9032F756C4EF@gmail.com> References: <47902A8F.9000000@praxis.com.au> <8A62E604-7230-4AA6-86D8-9032F756C4EF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080118212858.GG6828@taz.net.au> On Fri, Jan 18, 2008 at 09:46:02AM +0100, Kim Holburn wrote: > Here are 2 comments I have made on that video (anti-pascal's wager?): > > The costs of responding to global warming: > > 1) In many ways the costs associated with responding to global > warming would probably actually save us money and make businesses > more efficient. (Using less oil more efficiently?) So they may not > actually end up being costs. true, but they WILL be costs to those that actually matter - the coal and oil industries. > 2) The other thing about the costs of responding to global warming > is that the main effects, especially initially, would fall onto the > big energy companies. ie people might use less fossil fuel. While > big energy might not in the long run lose out, they would certainly > have to change a lot of things about the way they do business and in > the short term their profit might just fall. This is why they are so > resistant to the idea of global warming/climate change. and no government (even those that aren't in their pockets) dares to threaten or even annoy them. hence the status quo will continue until the planet dies. this is why we have nonsensical time-wasting distractions like carbon credit trading rather than a simple tax on carbon output. OK, carbon trading might be better than nothing, but it's not much better. we need to reduce CO2 production, not allow it to continue as long as someone, somewhere accepts money(*) in return for a vague promise that they'll make some kind of unaudited, unguarranteed attempt to "offset" the CO2. (*) a tiny fraction of what a real effort to reduce CO2 would cost. craig -- craig sanders BOFH excuse #325: Your processor does not develop enough heat. From stil at stilgherrian.com Sat Jan 19 08:49:59 2008 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 08:49:59 +1100 Subject: executable content vs plain data (was Re: [LINK] Pascal's Wager applied to GLobal CLimate Change) In-Reply-To: <20080118212038.GF6828@taz.net.au> Message-ID: On 19/1/08 8:20 AM, "Craig Sanders" wrote: > another reason this is relevant to Link is the disturbing fact that the > video is only available as a flash movie hosted on youtube. i.e. it's a > program that you have to run rather than just video data in a file which > can be played by any video player program (any player that has the right > video codecs, of course). > > which means that you have to be willing to run unknown, untrustworthy, > and untrustable executable programs in order to view it. > > or download it (which can be a difficult exercise in itself - youtube > wants you to stream the video, not download it and view it at your > leisure) and attempt to extract the video data from the executable. Miro, an Internet TV application, makes this possible in a fairly easy way. Streams the YouTube video and automatically converts it to a file on your hard drive. Miro is open source, an iTunes-like front end, uses VLC to play the video (so it can play pretty much anything), reads RSS feeds and BitTorrent to gather the video you want to watch. http://www.getmiro.com Have not explored much yet, but seems to be getting a good rap. Enjoy! Stil -- Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/ Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia mobile +61 407 623 600 fax +61 2 9516 5630 ABN 25 231 641 421 From stil at stilgherrian.com Sat Jan 19 10:57:47 2008 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 10:57:47 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: <6hhge8$14f2ao@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> Message-ID: You've got to wonder why Sensis are doing this NOW, when they seem to be re-branding "Yellow Pages" as "Yellow" anyway. Currently http://yellowpages.com.au identifies itself as yellow.com.au, and that's what the logo looks like. A screenshot and my extended rant at: http://stilgherrian.com/marketing/sensis_legal_bullies/ One possible reason for this madness: Sensis want to separate "the Yellow Pages Directory" from the Yellow brand, possibly with the aim of offloading the presumably-expensive business of printing phone books which no-one uses any more. Stil -- Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/ Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia mobile +61 407 623 600 fax +61 2 9516 5630 ABN 25 231 641 421 From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Sat Jan 19 10:58:13 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 10:58:13 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Expert advise sought please... In-Reply-To: <4790A24D.7090208@umd.com.au> References: <478E8F8C.3030800@lannet.com.au> <478F09B9.1040401@umd.com.au> <478FE1C3.6020903@lannet.com.au> <4790A24D.7090208@umd.com.au> Message-ID: At 23:57 +1100 18/1/08, Geoffrey Ramadan wrote: >FYI. RFID solution for parts tracking being developed by Boeing. >http://www.rfidjournal.com/article/articleview/3850/1/1/ >"Boeing Approves Intelleflex Chip, Weighs Higher-Memory Fujitsu Tag >With the silicon needed for a 64-kilobit parts tag finally ready, the >company is getting closer to achieving its vision for a parts-tagged plane. >[Also 512bit tags for things that generate limited history] Interesting, but I find the application curious. One of the important uses of parts-identifiers is and will be to enable investigations into accidents (e.g. a 777 crash-landing at LHR). In many such cases, components will be missing (e.g. crashes into jungles and oceans, disastrous crashes into open areas, and maybe even yesterday's accident). If the component is missing, so is the data contained in a chip that's integrated into the component. So it will be essential (and, to my understanding, is already a legal requirement) that the operator maintain and have accessible by investigators the full maintenance record of all controlled components on the aircraft. So, if there's a full record outside the aircraft, what are the benefits of a full record integral to the aircraft itself? Okay, maybe the aircraft is stranded in a remote location and needs repairs and replacement parts. But the telecommunications facilities used to communicate the order could just as readily be used to extract the repair record from the operator's central database in the first place, rather than depending on an appropriate reader being available at the remote location. I'm not for a moment decrying the use of RFID tags for aircraft components. But I'm querying the benefits of carrying much more than an identifier. -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Sat Jan 19 11:09:23 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 11:09:23 +1100 Subject: [LINK] FM: 'In archival we trust ...' Message-ID: [A nice Abstract at least ... In archiving we trust: Results from a workshop at Humboldt University in Berlin by Michael Seadle and Eke Greifeneder First Monday 13, 1 (7 January 2008) http://www.uic.edu/htbin/cgiwrap/bin/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/2089/1923 If 25 specialists in preserving scholarly information had sat together in June of 1907 at the University of Berlin on Unter den Linden (Humboldt-Universit?t zu Berlin), they could likely have agreed that materials stored in the libraries of one of the world's great research universities in the capitol of the richest and most powerful state in Europe could reasonably be trusted to survive long term. One hundred years later, after the events of the twentieth century had assaulted the collections with fire, water, looters, and censorship, representatives of four digital archiving systems came together to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of their systems face-to-face in front of an audience of librarians, who would have to choose whether any of these systems could be trusted to overcome the unknown events of the twenty-first century. A key conclusion was the need for interoperability and to pool efforts. An alternative to collaboration may be to let archiving systems complete on price, performance and advertising, but then as customers in that market, libraries need to think about how we can test long-term archiving, so that we have real evidence to decide whether the claims of reliability make sense. -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From mail at ozzmosis.com Sat Jan 19 11:54:01 2008 From: mail at ozzmosis.com (andrew clarke) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 11:54:01 +1100 Subject: [LINK] downloading YouTube videos In-Reply-To: <20080118212038.GF6828@taz.net.au> References: <47902A8F.9000000@praxis.com.au> <20080118212038.GF6828@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <20080119005401.GA86263@ozzmosis.com> On Sat, Jan 19, 2008 at 08:20:38AM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote: > another reason this is relevant to Link is the disturbing fact that the > video is only available as a flash movie hosted on youtube. i.e. it's a > program that you have to run rather than just video data in a file which > can be played by any video player program (any player that has the right > video codecs, of course). On FreeBSD there is no reliable way to execute Flash applets, so I use youtube-dl, a Python script for downloading YouTube movies, and the open source MPlayer to view them. youtube-dl and MPlayer will also run under Windows. [1] http://www.freebsd.org/ [2] http://www.arrakis.es/~rggi3/youtube-dl/ [3] http://www.mplayerhq.hu/ 11:09 ozzmosis at blizzard [~/tmp]youtube-dl "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zORv8wwiadQ" Retrieving video webpage... done. Extracting URL "t" parameter... done. Requesting video file... done. Video data found at http://74.125.14.25/get_video?video_id=zORv8wwiadQ&origin=ash-v42.ash.youtube.com Retrieving video data: 100.0% ( 22.14M of 22.14M) at 74.72k/s ETA 00:00 done. Video data saved to zORv8wwiadQ.flv 11:14 ozzmosis at blizzard [~/tmp]mplayer zORv8wwiadQ.flv MPlayer 1.0rc2-3.4.6 (C) 2000-2007 MPlayer Team CPU: Intel Celeron 2/Pentium III Coppermine,Geyserville (Family: 6, Model: 8, Stepping: 10) CPUflags: MMX: 1 MMX2: 1 3DNow: 0 3DNow2: 0 SSE: 1 SSE2: 0 Compiled with runtime CPU detection. Playing zORv8wwiadQ.flv. libavformat file format detected. [lavf] Video stream found, -vid 0 [lavf] Audio stream found, -aid 1 VIDEO: [FLV1] 320x240 0bpp 29.917 fps 0.0 kbps ( 0.0 kbyte/s) ========================================================================== Opening video decoder: [ffmpeg] FFmpeg's libavcodec codec family Selected video codec: [ffflv] vfm: ffmpeg (FFmpeg Flash video) ========================================================================== ========================================================================== Opening audio decoder: [mp3lib] MPEG layer-2, layer-3 AUDIO: 22050 Hz, 2 ch, s16le, 8.0 kbit/1.13% (ratio: 1000->88200) Selected audio codec: [mp3] afm: mp3lib (mp3lib MPEG layer-2, layer-3) ========================================================================== AO: [oss] 22050Hz 2ch s16le (2 bytes per sample) Starting playback... VDec: vo config request - 320 x 240 (preferred colorspace: Planar YV12) VDec: using Planar YV12 as output csp (no 0) Movie-Aspect is undefined - no prescaling applied. VO: [null] 320x240 => 320x240 Planar YV12 A: 3.3 V: 3.3 A-V: -0.038 ct: 0.139 99/ 99 3% 0% 1.0% 0 0 Exiting... (Quit) 11:15 ozzmosis at blizzard [~/tmp]uname -v FreeBSD 6.2-RELEASE #0: Wed Sep 19 21:56:10 EST 2007 root at blizzard.dancer:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/DELLGX150 > which means that you have to be willing to run unknown, untrustworthy, > and untrustable executable programs in order to view it. Yes, for Flash content, ultimately you're at the mercy of the "sandbox" that the Flash plugin provides. [...] > (for those who don't know how bit torrent and similar p2p protocols > work, every downloader also becomes an uploader - sharing the parts > of the file they already have with others who don't have that part > yet. they'll do that for at least as long as they're downloading for, > and most torrent users will continue to 'seed' the file until they've > uploaded at least twice as much as they have downloaded...some torrent > sites enforce such a ratio, with others it works on an honour system) There are a few issues with using BitTorrent as a distribution system, which were encountered when podcasting began. This isn't to say torrents can't be used, but it might explain why it's not used by sites such as YouTube. Those that come to mind: 1. With current-day torrent clients it's difficult to stream content, because seeders will usually share random segments of the stream, rather than sequential segments. There is new software to work around this situation, eg. http://www.bittorrent.com/dna/streamingservices.html, but it's not in widespread use. 2. "Every downloader also becomes an uploader" - there are legal risks with this in terms of users unknowingly sharing copyrighted content where they are not legally permitted to. 3. Uploading data from corporate networks (or universities) can be a problem in terms of bandwidth consumption. Most torrent clients have a way to limit the bandwidth they use, but it has to be configured manually by the user. Regards Andrew From rick at praxis.com.au Sat Jan 19 13:24:57 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 13:24:57 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47915F79.2020606@praxis.com.au> Stilgherrian wrote: > A screenshot and my extended rant at: > > http://stilgherrian.com/marketing/sensis_legal_bullies/ The link to the screenshot of Yellow(R) returns a 404 error*. > One possible reason for this madness: Sensis want to separate "the Yellow > Pages Directory" from the Yellow brand, possibly with the aim of offloading > the presumably-expensive business of printing phone books which no-one uses > any more. Like yourself and many, many, many others I have not used either the Yellow Pages or White Pages (printed() for years now. How does one stop this waste of paper? Each year, four tomes go into the paper recycling bin and four new books take up space in an unused corner. cheers rickw * on some science show on ABC/RN the other day (or was it on Sleek Geeks on ABC/TV?) mention was made of the origin of ERROR 403 PAGE NOT FOUND. First off, the error code is 403. Second, the show reported that the error code was "named" after Room 403 at CERN. Ridiculous, I say. The error codes for HTTP[1] were modeled after those for FTP[2] and I strongly doubt any connection to Room 403. [1] [2] -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Once a new technology starts rolling, if you're not part of the steamroller, you're part of the road. -- Stewart Brand From stil at stilgherrian.com Sat Jan 19 13:43:44 2008 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 13:43:44 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: <47915F79.2020606@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: On 19/1/08 1:24 PM, "Rick Welykochy" wrote: > The link to the screenshot of Yellow(R) returns a 404 error*. Oops, fixed. > Like yourself and many, many, many others I have not used either the > Yellow Pages or White Pages (printed() for years now. How does one > stop this waste of paper? Each year, four tomes go into the paper > recycling bin and four new books take up space in an unused corner. I have no idea. I've used the form on their website to ask, twice, over the last 12 months and neither time did I receive a reply. Appalling. Stil -- Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/ Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia mobile +61 407 623 600 fax +61 2 9516 5630 ABN 25 231 641 421 From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Sat Jan 19 13:45:28 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 13:45:28 +1100 Subject: OT: 404 [Was Re: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: <47915F79.2020606@praxis.com.au> References: <47915F79.2020606@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: Yep, it's been debunked at least, let's see, 404 times: http://www.plinko.net/404/history.asp At 13:24 +1100 19/1/08, Rick Welykochy wrote: > >* on some science show on ABC/RN the other day (or was it on Sleek Geeks > on ABC/TV?) mention was made of the origin of ERROR 403 PAGE NOT FOUND. > First off, the error code is 403. Second, the show reported that the > error code was "named" after Room 403 at CERN. Ridiculous, I > say. The error codes for HTTP[1] were modeled after those for FTP[2] > and I strongly doubt any connection to Room 403. > >[1] > >[2] > -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From rick at praxis.com.au Sat Jan 19 13:50:56 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 13:50:56 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: executable content vs plain data In-Reply-To: <20080118212038.GF6828@taz.net.au> References: <47902A8F.9000000@praxis.com.au> <20080118212038.GF6828@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <47916590.5000207@praxis.com.au> Craig Sanders wrote: > On Fri, Jan 18, 2008 at 03:26:55PM +1100, Rick Welykochy wrote: >> How does this apply to Link? Reasoned analysis like this is >> easily disseminated now like never before. Public opinion can >> be better informed and force policy changes like never before. > > another reason this is relevant to Link is the disturbing fact that the > video is only available as a flash movie hosted on youtube. i.e. it's a > program that you have to run rather than just video data in a file which > can be played by any video player program (any player that has the right > video codecs, of course). The same argument can be applied to software required to view/edit thousands of proprietary formats. It is a problem, but for a different reason. > which means that you have to be willing to run unknown, untrustworthy, > and untrustable executable programs in order to view it. And how can millions of Windows users trust a software upgrade? Do millions of Linux users audit the source code of everything they download in binary form and run on their machines? This is not even possible for proprietary programs like Adobe Reader, Corel and other software. Why would one trust Adobe/Flash less than trusting other mega corporation software downloads? Your rant is intellectually pure but practically unimplementable. > or download it (which can be a difficult exercise in itself - youtube > wants you to stream the video, not download it and view it at your > leisure) and attempt to extract the video data from the executable. The .FLV file format is really just a container for H.263 and H.264 video formats. Nothing executable about the video file itself. In fact, it is *less exectuable* than an MS Word document. And we've all downloaded and viewed those, by necessity. You can easily obtain software that downloads and stores the Flash Video Stream to a file. Just as easily are video players that play Flash Video. VLC Player and Perian for Quicktime come to mind. The real problem: 99.9% of computer users could hardly be bothered to (a) download and store the stream and (b) play it on software they can trust. > this is a serious problem with youtube and similar sites - it encourages > dangerously risky behaviour on the part of users, most of whom don't > know any better and, now they've got used to the "convenience" of sites > like youtube will refuse to be convinced that it's dangerous, that there > are better, safer ways that such sites could - and should - work. LOL ... we threw that baby out with the bath water years ago. A usual, you are speaking from a highly trained technical high chair and preaching to computer illiterati who would have no clue what you are talking about and furthermore no skills to circumvent the problem. I talk to the illiterati all the time about such things and am always met with a blank but more importantly uncaring stare. When I explain the dangers further (e.g. identify theft, data theft) the response is that they have nothing they are really worried about on their PC. Which makes me laugh quietly to myself. Until one gets a virus that brings the home network down, viruses are simply not in the radar. Until one's bank account is emptied by a crim, phishing does not apply to them. So it goes. I do not agree that sites like YouTube and the like are dangerously risky. All I can conclude is that surfing the web with an insecure browser (or misconfigured Internet zone setup) using Windows and Internet Explorer are *extremely risky* behaviour. The only solution is to become quite technically trained, replace all insecure software you are running with secure versions (whatever that really means) and then drive the info superhighway with extreme caution. This is impractical, impossible, unattainable and futile. Five minutes watching a teen (for example) whizz around dozens of web sites, downloading emails and merrily clicking on anything with colour and movement will convince you of that. The fact that they are doing this on Windows sends chills down my spine. The real problem is not Flash. Although an annoying vector for sending out animated adverts, easily stopped with a blocker, I do trust the Flash and Shockwave software. Much more worrying is the ease with which the illiterati will download and execute programs that they could not possibly trust, or as in the case of Sears marketing, unwittingly download executable software (spyware). To conclude, the new subject of this thread does not apply in the case of Flash Video. It does apply to many other types of content, including the MS Office document formats which contain macros and Active-X controls which contain executable VB code. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Once a new technology starts rolling, if you're not part of the steamroller, you're part of the road. -- Stewart Brand From dlochrin at d2.net.au Sat Jan 19 14:31:05 2008 From: dlochrin at d2.net.au (David Lochrin) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 14:31:05 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: <4E549D60-0F7E-42D0-AE2A-7DF49E9C1FC1@Malcolm.id.au> References: <4E549D60-0F7E-42D0-AE2A-7DF49E9C1FC1@Malcolm.id.au> Message-ID: <200801191431.05342.dlochrin@d2.net.au> "The Australian Concise Oxford Dictionary" fourth edition (2004) includes the following under the entry for "yellow". QUOTE - Yellow Pages propr. (a section of) a telephone directory on yellow paper and listing business subscribers according to the goods and services they offer. - UNQUOTE The flag "propr." indicates "proprietary status" but a note at the beginning of the dictionary states this does not carry any judgement as to legal status. However that modern oracle Wikipedia has an entry which includes the following. QUOTE The name and concept of "Yellow Pages" came about in 1883, when a printer in Cheyenne, Wyoming working on a regular telephone directory ran out of white paper and used yellow paper instead. Reuben H. Donnelly later expanded on this concept in 1886 to recreate the very first official yellow pages directory. [1][2] Today, the expression "Yellow Pages" is used globally, in both English and non-English speaking countries; in the U.S. it refers to the category, while in some other countries it is a registered name and therefore a proper noun. UNQUOTE Note the final paragraph. I suppose the key question is whether Sensis have registered the term in Australia. In any event, I like the idea of publishing their demands for all to see so they can form their own opinion. David From kheitman at kheitman.com Sat Jan 19 15:12:42 2008 From: kheitman at kheitman.com (Kimberley Heitman) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 13:12:42 +0900 Subject: [LINK] Urine-coloured pages Message-ID: <005a01c85a51$8bb53aa0$0501a8c0@DellBox> One of the ironies of the legal threats to secure Sensis' exclusive ownership of the words akin to saffron and paper leaves is that the slavish emulation of foreign brands led to the destruction by the Telecom Australia quango of a perfectly good Australian brand "the Pink Pages". ----------------------- Kimberley James Heitman www.kheitman.com ----------------------- From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au Sat Jan 19 16:02:15 2008 From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 16:02:15 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080119050215.GA2929@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> If I ever get anything like this, I'll be removing all my links to yellowpages.com.au and replacing them with links to Telstra's competition. Maybe truelocal.com.au - any other ideas? Danny. --------------------------------------------------------- http://dannyreviews.com/ - over nine hundred book reviews http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog --------------------------------------------------------- From ivan at itrundle.com Sat Jan 19 16:06:54 2008 From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 16:06:54 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: <20080119050215.GA2929@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> References: <20080119050215.GA2929@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <00B51620-5704-4EE0-8FDF-C9C145C53B29@itrundle.com> On 19/01/2008, at 4:02 PM, Danny Yee wrote: > If I ever get anything like this, I'll be removing all my links > to yellowpages.com.au and replacing them with links to Telstra's > competition. Maybe truelocal.com.au - any other ideas? There's always phonebook.com.au - but try searching for 'Yellow Pages' to see how poorly the search engine is organised. iT From david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au Sat Jan 19 16:15:41 2008 From: david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au (David Boxall) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 16:15:41 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: <200801181337.m0IDbwwN026247@ah.net> References: <20080118152223285564.cdb17ce9@viking.org.au> <47903EE4.8080607@praxis.com.au> <20080118160349009398.f4d57c35@viking.org.au> <200801181337.m0IDbwwN026247@ah.net> Message-ID: <4791877D.8000408@hunterlink.net.au> Bottom line: Sensis employs turkeys to expose themselves as clowns. But don't laugh; ultimately, we're paying for this psychopathology. -- David Boxall | Drink no longer water, | but use a little wine | for thy stomach's sake ... | King James Bible | 1 Timothy 5:23 From adrian at creative.net.au Sat Jan 19 16:28:40 2008 From: adrian at creative.net.au (Adrian Chadd) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 14:28:40 +0900 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: <20080119050215.GA2929@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> References: <20080119050215.GA2929@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <20080119052840.GE5538@skywalker.creative.net.au> On Sat, Jan 19, 2008, Danny Yee wrote: > If I ever get anything like this, I'll be removing all my links > to yellowpages.com.au and replacing them with links to Telstra's > competition. Maybe truelocal.com.au - any other ideas? maps.google.com.au? :) Adrian From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Sat Jan 19 16:30:24 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 16:30:24 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: <20080119050215.GA2929@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> References: <20080119050215.GA2929@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <6hhge8$14ocko@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> At 04:02 PM 19/01/2008, Danny Yee wrote: >If I ever get anything like this, I'll be removing all my links >to yellowpages.com.au and replacing them with links to Telstra's >competition. Maybe truelocal.com.au - any other ideas? If you do this, be sure to let them know. Why not do it now and tell them why? I mean, prevention is worth an ounce of cure. Jan Semi-finalist - Amazon Breakout Novelist Award 2008: The Truck - A baby-boomer nostalgia murder mystery http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00121WDVA - Read and rate now! Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Writing Lesson #54: Learn to love revision. Think of it as polishing the silver for guests. - JW, May, 2007 _ __________________ _ From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Sat Jan 19 16:43:54 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 16:43:54 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: <20080119050215.GA2929@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> References: <20080119050215.GA2929@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <6hhge8$14ofvp@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> At 04:02 PM 19/01/2008, Danny Yee wrote: >competition. Maybe truelocal.com.au - any other ideas? http://www.nationwide.com.au/ - established in 1989. http://www.blacknwhite.org/ http://www.hotfrog.com.au/ http://www.ozebiz.com.au/ http://www.websights.net.au/ -very small http://www.sydneypinkpages.com.au/ - Sydney only; Kim, looks like they're still operating http://www.businesspages.org/ http://www.aussielocal.com.au/ http://www.thegreendirectory.com.au/ - green focus, looks good! http://businessdirectoryaustralia.com/ - yuk. Try this one with js blocked http://www.qpages.com.au/ - love this one. Gay and lesbian businesses in WA. Now *that* is targeted marketing! http://www.communityguide.com.au/ http://abdonline.com.au/ - arabic business directory. Also js only. I'm bored. I googled business directory australia. Over 4 million entries, but not sure how many really have all three terms. When I made them all required, the number didn't change. Jan Semi-finalist - Amazon Breakout Novelist Award 2008: The Truck - A baby-boomer nostalgia murder mystery http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00121WDVA - Read and rate now! Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Writing Lesson #54: Learn to love revision. Think of it as polishing the silver for guests. - JW, May, 2007 _ __________________ _ From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Sat Jan 19 17:12:34 2008 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (Richard Chirgwin) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 17:12:34 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: <200801191431.05342.dlochrin@d2.net.au> References: <4E549D60-0F7E-42D0-AE2A-7DF49E9C1FC1@Malcolm.id.au> <200801191431.05342.dlochrin@d2.net.au> Message-ID: <479194D2.2000608@ozemail.com.au> David Lochrin wrote: > "The Australian Concise Oxford Dictionary" fourth edition (2004) includes the following under the entry for "yellow". QUOTE - Yellow Pages propr. (a section of) a telephone directory on yellow paper and listing business subscribers according to the goods and services they offer. - UNQUOTE > > The flag "propr." indicates "proprietary status" but a note at the beginning of the dictionary states this does not carry any judgement as to legal status. > > However that modern oracle Wikipedia has an entry which includes the following. > > QUOTE > The name and concept of "Yellow Pages" came about in 1883, when a printer in Cheyenne, Wyoming working on a regular telephone directory ran out of white paper and used yellow paper instead. Reuben H. Donnelly later expanded on this concept in 1886 to recreate the very first official yellow pages directory. [1][2] > > Today, the expression "Yellow Pages" is used globally, in both English and non-English speaking countries; in the U.S. it refers to the category, while in some other countries it is a registered name and therefore a proper noun. > UNQUOTE > > Note the final paragraph. > > I suppose the key question is whether Sensis have registered the term in Australia. In any event, I like the idea of publishing their demands for all to see so they can form their own opinion. > That's easy to test: a trademark search on IPAustralia.gov.au - which turns up several different registrations of the trade mark. However, the existence of a trade mark doesn't automagically mean nobody can use the words yellow pages in succession, nor does it mean that one person cannot tell another person "look in the yellow pages", nor is there a real obligation to put a trademark symbol next to any and every text referring to the words yellow pages. The circumstances surrounding the trade mark owner's rights aren't "everything I want my rights to be". IANAL so I can't really "fill in the blanks" of every variant of trademark law ... But my reading of the Yellow Pages letter to Roger is "bollocks". RC > David > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link at mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > > From david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au Sat Jan 19 17:34:45 2008 From: david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au (David Boxall) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 17:34:45 +1100 Subject: [LINK] ETT spruiks satellite broadband in face of OPEL and Govt plans Message-ID: <47919A05.7090405@hunterlink.net.au> From: "Even as OPEL finalises its nation-wide WiMAX rollout and the Federal Government teeters on its FttN plans for regional Australia, newly appointed wholesaler for the IPSTAR satellite, ETT Limited, remains firm in its belief of becoming a serious regional broadband provider." They'll need to make it a lot more reliable. Getting a sync is such a hit & miss affair that I'm loath to turn off my modem. Syncing seems to be easier in the early hours of the morning, so I presume the problem has something to do with crowding. A function of the contention ratio, I guess. They'll also need to make it cheaper. At 1Mb/s, an extra GB would cost me $30. I've no idea of the cost of data, but that price is beyond the value to me. From where I am (32?51'S; 151?15'E), the satellite is so low in the sky that it doesn't take much of a tree to cause problems. We *are* talking about the bush here. Where (apart from up) is the IPSTAR satellite anyway? Being less than a year into a three year contract, I'll need to wait a while before looking for an alternative. Hope the trees don't grow too fast. -- David Boxall | Any given program, | when running correctly, | is obsolete. | --Arthur C. Clarke From david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au Sat Jan 19 19:46:57 2008 From: david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au (David Boxall) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 19:46:57 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: VIP-L: CDMA closure postponed ! In-Reply-To: <6hhge8$1497cg@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> References: <6hhge8$1497cg@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <4791B901.8000708@hunterlink.net.au> Jan Whitaker wrote: > >> Government postpones CDMA network closure. ... >> Mr Conroy says the newer network is not up to scratch due to existing >> problems with phone handsets. >> He says many customers are being given new phones that do not provide >> equal coverage. >> "I have made it clear to Telstra that it should continue do >> everything possible to ensure that customers are using the correct >> Next G equipment," he said. >> "This should include replacing handsets at no financial penalty." ... At last, somebody in government gets it. Telstra has been flogging handsets in the bush that simply don't do the job. LGs were touted as the ones to buy in rural areas, apparently solely on the basis that Telstra could provide an external antenna. Carrying around an old CDMA unit and an LG 550, both typically show the same signal strength (by the scientifically rigorous process of counting the bars). Actually making a call is a different matter. Where the CDMA unit worked, the LG too often doesn't. Telstra shouldn't be allowed to close the CDMA network until they've replaced the crap they've foisted on their customers with something that gives performance comparable to the CDMA handsets. Until that time, they should reactivate the old handsets. If a customer has disposed of their old hardware, then I guess it's up to Telstra to provide a replacement. It will cost millions and Telstra will kick and scream, but their profit isn't everything. And I'm a shareholder. The safety of people & property and the profitability of businesses depend on communications. These are things that we elect governments to take in hand. It looks like we might finally have one that will do the job. There are still places within the old AMPS coverage area that don't have a CDMA service, I'm told. Is the story repeating? I reckon we need government to take a *much* more substantial role in providing (or at least controlling the provision of) infrastructure. -- David Boxall | "Cheer up" they said. | "Things could be worse." | So I cheered up and, | Sure enough, things got worse. | --Murphy's musing From scott at doc.net.au Sat Jan 19 20:29:21 2008 From: scott at doc.net.au (Scott Howard) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 16:29:21 +0700 Subject: [LINK] Sourcing replacement laptop batteries In-Reply-To: <479011DE.3080201@lannet.com.au> References: <479011DE.3080201@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <4791C2F1.2080201@doc.net.au> 90+% off the on-line battery shops in Australia are all fronts (or more technically, "associates") for one company based in Hong Kong. If you dig a bit deeper you'll find the actual company that's behind them all. I can't comment on the quality of their actual batteries... Scott. Howard Lowndes wrote: > I need to buy some replacement batteries for a couple of lappies, both > Toshiba, that I am taking o/s with me. > > So far I have looked at 4 web sites and they all offer the batteries I > need at similar prices, in fact 3 have identical prices. > > The sites I have looked at are: > > ibuynow.com.au > global-batteries.com.au > 1buy.com.au > ebattery.com.au > > Does anyone have any experiences they can offer about these suppliers, > or can anyone offer other experiences of reliable battery sources. > From gramadan at umd.com.au Sat Jan 19 23:02:04 2008 From: gramadan at umd.com.au (Geoffrey Ramadan) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 23:02:04 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Expert advise sought please... In-Reply-To: References: <478E8F8C.3030800@lannet.com.au> <478F09B9.1040401@umd.com.au> <478FE1C3.6020903@lannet.com.au> <4790A24D.7090208@umd.com.au> Message-ID: <4791E6BC.6060202@umd.com.au> Roger Clarke wrote: > At 23:57 +1100 18/1/08, Geoffrey Ramadan wrote: >> FYI. RFID solution for parts tracking being developed by Boeing. >> http://www.rfidjournal.com/article/articleview/3850/1/1/ >> "Boeing Approves Intelleflex Chip, Weighs Higher-Memory Fujitsu Tag >> With the silicon needed for a 64-kilobit parts tag finally ready, the >> company is getting closer to achieving its vision for a parts-tagged >> plane. >> [Also 512bit tags for things that generate limited history] > > Interesting, but I find the application curious. > > One of the important uses of parts-identifiers is and will be to > enable investigations into accidents (e.g. a 777 crash-landing at LHR). > > In many such cases, components will be missing (e.g. crashes into > jungles and oceans, disastrous crashes into open areas, and maybe even > yesterday's accident). > > If the component is missing, so is the data contained in a chip that's > integrated into the component. > > So it will be essential (and, to my understanding, is already a legal > requirement) that the operator maintain and have accessible by > investigators the full maintenance record of all controlled components > on the aircraft. > > So, if there's a full record outside the aircraft, what are the > benefits of a full record integral to the aircraft itself? > > Okay, maybe the aircraft is stranded in a remote location and needs > repairs and replacement parts. But the telecommunications facilities > used to communicate the order could just as readily be used to extract > the repair record from the operator's central database in the first > place, rather than depending on an appropriate reader being available > at the remote location. > > I'm not for a moment decrying the use of RFID tags for aircraft > components. But I'm querying the benefits of carrying much more than > an identifier. > Roger The predominate use of RFID in this application is for inventory control and maintenance. Air safety applications are a "spin off" from this, but not its primary purpose. Boeing themselves see the value as: "Information stored on the RFID tag will enhance parts traceability and reduce cycle time to solve in-service problems by improving the accuracy of information exchanged between customers and suppliers," said Lou Mancini, vice president and general manager of Boeing Commercial Aviation Services. http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2005/q4/nr_051003g.html also see http://www.boeing.com/news/frontiers/archive/2004/december/i_ca4.html Aircraft are serviced in multi-locations, by different operators, and have tens of thousand of parts. Having a "central database" to track serial numbers back to histories is going to be difficult and complex and would required agreement between various parties at many levels. Having the service data with the part in this case makes a lot of sense. Reg Geoffrey Ramadan B.E.(Elec) Chairman, Automatic Data Capture Association (www.adca.com.au) and Managing Director, Unique Micro Design (www.umd.com.au) From stil at stilgherrian.com Sun Jan 20 07:32:39 2008 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 07:32:39 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: <6hhge8$14ofvp@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> Message-ID: On 19/1/08 4:43 PM, "Jan Whitaker" wrote: > I'm bored. I googled business directory australia. Over 4 > million entries, but not sure how many really have all three terms. > When I made them all required, the number didn't change. And that, indeed, is the point. "Mentioning the term business directory" is not the same as "trading as a business directory", which is that first test of infringing someone's trademark. When a TV newsreader tells us that "Today BigPond announced a 35% price reduction for loyal customers" she doesn't add "BigPond is a registered trademark of"... she just reads the damn story. She doesn't go on about the legal status of the terms she describes. There surely reaches a point where such things are the common knowledge of the people who are communicating? Stil -- Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/ Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia mobile +61 407 623 600 fax +61 2 9516 5630 ABN 25 231 641 421 From stil at stilgherrian.com Sun Jan 20 07:47:10 2008 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 07:47:10 +1100 Subject: [LINK] 'Yellow Pages' as a Trademark In-Reply-To: <200801191431.05342.dlochrin@d2.net.au> Message-ID: On 19/1/08 2:31 PM, "David Lochrin" wrote: > I suppose the key question is whether Sensis have registered the term in > Australia. In any event, I like the idea of publishing their demands for all > to see so they can form their own opinion. A search at http://www.ipaustralia.gov.au reveals 16 trademarks containing "yellow pages", including "electronic yellow pages" and "talking yellow pages". Nowhere can I see "the Yellow Pages directory" as a registered trademark. So where do they got off saying that you need to use "yellow pages" in a particular grammatical form? All these marks appear to be registered to Telstra Corporation Australia. Disclaimer: This is the first time I've used this search tool so maybe I'm missing some subtlety. Stil -- Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/ Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia mobile +61 407 623 600 fax +61 2 9516 5630 ABN 25 231 641 421 From cas at taz.net.au Sun Jan 20 10:09:15 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:09:15 +1100 Subject: executable content vs plain data (was Re: [LINK] Pascal's Wager applied to GLobal CLimate Change) In-Reply-To: References: <20080118212038.GF6828@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <20080119230915.GH6828@taz.net.au> On Sat, Jan 19, 2008 at 08:49:59AM +1100, Stilgherrian wrote: > On 19/1/08 8:20 AM, "Craig Sanders" wrote: > > or download it (which can be a difficult exercise in itself - youtube > > wants you to stream the video, not download it and view it at your > > leisure) and attempt to extract the video data from the executable. > > Miro, an Internet TV application, makes this possible in a fairly easy way. > Streams the YouTube video and automatically converts it to a file on your > hard drive. yeah, i've got miro installed and use it (some of the google talks and TED lectures are interesting). i know it could search youtube to construct what it calls a "channel", and now that you point it out, the "Download video" option in the File menu seems to do the trick for downloading individual youtube videos. craig -- craig sanders BOFH excuse #267: The UPS is on strike. From cas at taz.net.au Sun Jan 20 10:41:07 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:41:07 +1100 Subject: [LINK] downloading YouTube videos In-Reply-To: <20080119005401.GA86263@ozzmosis.com> References: <47902A8F.9000000@praxis.com.au> <20080118212038.GF6828@taz.net.au> <20080119005401.GA86263@ozzmosis.com> Message-ID: <20080119234107.GI6828@taz.net.au> On Sat, Jan 19, 2008 at 11:54:01AM +1100, andrew clarke wrote: > On Sat, Jan 19, 2008 at 08:20:38AM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote: > > > another reason this is relevant to Link is the disturbing fact that the > > video is only available as a flash movie hosted on youtube. i.e. it's a > > program that you have to run rather than just video data in a file which > > can be played by any video player program (any player that has the right > > video codecs, of course). > > On FreeBSD there is no reliable way to execute Flash applets, so I use > youtube-dl, a Python script for downloading YouTube movies, and the open > source MPlayer to view them. youtube-dl and MPlayer will also run under > Windows. yes, i use such tools (on linux). they mostly work but are clumsy to use....actually, the tools work OK but the content on youtube generally isn't worth the bother. > There are a few issues with using BitTorrent as a distribution system, > which were encountered when podcasting began. This isn't to say > torrents can't be used, but it might explain why it's not used by sites > such as YouTube. Those that come to mind: sure, it's not perfect. streaming videos isn't, either. > 1. With current-day torrent clients it's difficult to stream content, > because seeders will usually share random segments of the stream, rather > than sequential segments. There is new software to work around this > situation, eg. http://www.bittorrent.com/dna/streamingservices.html, but > it's not in widespread use. the client has some degree of control over the order that segments are downloaded because the client is the one that requests segments from seeds & peers (e.g. the azureus bittorrent client has an option to download the first and last segments of a file first). of course, the seed or peer can choose whether or not to accede to the request. if a client were to request segments in sequential order, then that would be similar to streaming, as long as the seeds/peers had the segments being requested and were willing to give them as requested. it could of course be improved, but the way BT works now is probably adequate for small, personal sites. it certainly can't be worse than the way streaming works now - i find that, even on an 8Mbps ADSL link, streaming videos from the net is often subject to annoying delays and pauses, so the output is jerky. that's one of the reasons i prefer to download the entire file before viewing it. > 2. "Every downloader also becomes an uploader" - there are legal risks > with this in terms of users unknowingly sharing copyrighted content > where they are not legally permitted to. not if we're talking about open content stuff like this pascal's wager video. > 3. Uploading data from corporate networks (or universities) can be a > problem in terms of bandwidth consumption. Most torrent clients have a > way to limit the bandwidth they use, but it has to be configured > manually by the user. usually it's configured automatically based on your download bw, with an option to change the upload bw limit manually if you want. not every client has to upload, anyway. as long as there are sufficient seeds and peers to cater for current 'demand' for the file(s), it will work....and that will scale semi-automatically (assuming that at least some of the downloaders are willing and able to upload too) as the more downloaders there are, the more potential uploaders there are. that was also the point of what i said about self-organising networks of small publishers (e.g. "bloggers") assisting each other by agreeing to help seed each others files. craig -- craig sanders "I use the word "Humanist" to mean someone who believes that man is just as much a natural phenomenon as an animal or a plant; that his body, mind or soul were not supernaturally created but are products of evolution, and that he is not under the control or guidance of any supernatural being, but has to rely on himself and his own powers." [Julian Huxley, "The Humanist Frame," 1961] From cas at taz.net.au Sun Jan 20 11:24:50 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:24:50 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: executable content vs plain data In-Reply-To: <47916590.5000207@praxis.com.au> References: <47902A8F.9000000@praxis.com.au> <20080118212038.GF6828@taz.net.au> <47916590.5000207@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <20080120002450.GJ6828@taz.net.au> On Sat, Jan 19, 2008 at 01:50:56PM +1100, Rick Welykochy wrote: > Craig Sanders wrote: > >> On Fri, Jan 18, 2008 at 03:26:55PM +1100, Rick Welykochy wrote: >>> How does this apply to Link? Reasoned analysis like this is >>> easily disseminated now like never before. Public opinion can >>> be better informed and force policy changes like never before. >> >> another reason this is relevant to Link is the disturbing fact that the >> video is only available as a flash movie hosted on youtube. i.e. it's a >> program that you have to run rather than just video data in a file which >> can be played by any video player program (any player that has the right >> video codecs, of course). > > The same argument can be applied to software required to view/edit > thousands of proprietary formats. It is a problem, but for a different > reason. no, it's a different argument entirely. this is a variation of the "don't run programs that you receive in email, even if the mail headers claim to come from people you know" argument. proprietary data formats, while annoying etc etc, are still just data. the user processes it in some way with existing programs on their own computer. flash videos are executable programs. they could do anything. >> which means that you have to be willing to run unknown, untrustworthy, >> and untrustable executable programs in order to view it. > > And how can millions of Windows users trust a software upgrade? > > Do millions of Linux users audit the source code of everything they > download in binary form and run on their machines? This is not even > possible for proprietary programs like Adobe Reader, Corel and other > software. > > Why would one trust Adobe/Flash less than trusting other mega corporation > software downloads? that's not the point. whether or not you do, or should, trust your OS and/or applications providers is another issue entirely. the point is, you not only have to trust the player software, if you enable (or, fail to disable) executable content on your browser, you also have to trust every web site you ever visit. i don't want to run random programs provided by complete strangers on some web site. so, i don't. if they have content that i want to view then i find some way to get at that content without having to run it...and if i can't do that, then i just give up. it's not worth the hassle and it's not worth the risk. > The real problem: 99.9% of computer users could hardly be bothered > to (a) download and store the stream and (b) play it on software they > can trust. so? that's supposed to be a reason for wrapping and locking up data in some executable? and it's all completely unnecessary. there are numerous data file formats for storing video and audio, and browsers are capable of displaying video data all by themselves, or with the help of user-installed plugins. >> this is a serious problem with youtube and similar sites - it encourages >> dangerously risky behaviour on the part of users, most of whom don't >> know any better and, now they've got used to the "convenience" of sites >> like youtube will refuse to be convinced that it's dangerous, that there >> are better, safer ways that such sites could - and should - work. > > LOL ... we threw that baby out with the bath water years ago. A usual, > you are speaking from a highly trained technical high chair and > preaching to computer illiterati who would have no clue what you are > talking about and furthermore no skills to circumvent the problem. they never will learn if nobody ever bothers to raise the issue. IMO, it is the responsibility of people like me (and you) who do understand the issues to point them out - and explain them - to people who don't. and not solely as an act of altruism - the net works better when it's not contaminated by millions of virus-infected zombie machines. > I do not agree that sites like YouTube and the like are dangerously > risky. All I can conclude is that surfing the web with an insecure i didn't say that youtube was dangerously risky. i said that the habit of running random executable programs from web sites was dangerously risky. youtube is one of several sites that encourage such risky behaviour. > browser (or misconfigured Internet zone setup) using Windows and > Internet Explorer are *extremely risky* behaviour. The only solution > is to become quite technically trained, replace all insecure software > you are running with secure versions (whatever that really means) and > then drive the info superhighway with extreme caution. > > This is impractical, impossible, unattainable and futile. only because you set it up to be so. non-techs could just listen to the advice from people who are technically literate. you don't have to be able to read, understand, or hack the code to be able to run firefox, nor do you have to be a kernel hacker to run linux...you don't even have to be technically proficient these days. > Five minutes watching a teen (for example) whizz around dozens of web > sites, downloading emails and merrily clicking on anything with colour > and movement will convince you of that. The fact that they are doing > this on Windows sends chills down my spine. yes, and they're never going to know that there is any kind of problem with doing that unless someone tells them. and you can be sure that youtube et al aren't going to - that might compromise their business model. > The real problem is not Flash. the real problem is executable content of which flash is only one example...as you point out, it's not the worst/most dangerous example, but the fact that there are worse executable data formats around doesn't excuse flash. > Although an annoying vector for sending > out animated adverts, easily stopped with a blocker, I do trust the > Flash and Shockwave software. i don't. all software has bugs, and there are people willing to exploit such bugs (and not just script-kiddies any more, there's big money and organised crime involvement in malware these days). > Much more worrying is the ease with > which the illiterati will download and execute programs that they > could not possibly trust, or as in the case of Sears marketing, > unwittingly download executable software (spyware). i really don't see any difference. executable content is executable content. craig -- craig sanders Avoid the Gates of Hell. Use Linux -- unknown source From rick at praxis.com.au Sun Jan 20 12:50:48 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:50:48 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: executable content vs plain data In-Reply-To: <20080120002450.GJ6828@taz.net.au> References: <47902A8F.9000000@praxis.com.au> <20080118212038.GF6828@taz.net.au> <47916590.5000207@praxis.com.au> <20080120002450.GJ6828@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <4792A8F8.4090808@praxis.com.au> Craig Sanders wrote: > flash videos are executable programs. they could do anything. Flash videos are in the same class as JPEG images: just data. The Flash plugin to play Flash videos is an executable. If you do not trust it, then you can block flash. > i don't want to run random programs provided by complete strangers > on some web site. so, i don't. if they have content that i want to > view then i find some way to get at that content without having to run > it...and if i can't do that, then i just give up. it's not worth the > hassle and it's not worth the risk. A secure browser *never* downloads and executes programs without the user first enabling the download and installation. This is how the plug-in installation process works. Can you give me an example of a web site that provides a *program* to be run by the browser? >> The real problem: 99.9% of computer users could hardly be bothered >> to (a) download and store the stream and (b) play it on software they >> can trust. > > so? > > that's supposed to be a reason for wrapping and locking up data in some > executable? > > and it's all completely unnecessary. there are numerous data file > formats for storing video and audio, and browsers are capable > of displaying video data all by themselves, or with the help of > user-installed plugins. Flash is just yet another plug-in. Trust it or don't. Flash video is not a video wrapped up as an executable. >> I do not agree that sites like YouTube and the like are dangerously >> risky. All I can conclude is that surfing the web with an insecure > > i didn't say that youtube was dangerously risky. i said that the habit > of running random executable programs from web sites was dangerously > risky. youtube is one of several sites that encourage such risky > behaviour. Once again, give me but one example of a site that requests you download and execute an executable file. That is, a file that is executable code, not content. > non-techs could just listen to the advice from people who are > technically literate. Experience shows that most people simply do not listen. This alludes to the concept of the "Internet Dirver's Licence" which many geeks lament. > i really don't see any difference. executable content is executable > content. I see quite a difference between content played via a plug-in and the plug-in itself. The former is just data and the latter is an executable. If you have the Adobe PDF Viewer installed as a plug-in, that is an executable you presumably agreed to have installed in your browser. When you download a PDF and view it in using the plug-in, in my dictionary you are downloading data and viewing it with a plug-in. My dictionary does not call this downloading executable content, since you cannot "run" a PDF file. I think we are quibbling over definitions. To disambiguate: please tell me how to "run" a PDF file or a Flash video on my computer. My definition of "run" or "execute" precludes running a PDF. There is no OS program loader for a PDF and there is no executable (binary or bytecode) in the PDF. Same can be said for a Flash video. For the latter, one can execute VLC and it will load and play the video. But you cannot "run" a video in any sense, just as you cannot "run" a JPEG or Word doc. (Although the latter makes me shiver since it can contain embedded VB script.) cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Once a new technology starts rolling, if you're not part of the steamroller, you're part of the road. -- Stewart Brand From arsptr at internode.on.net Sun Jan 20 13:15:26 2008 From: arsptr at internode.on.net (Alastair Rankine) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:15:26 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Pascal's Wager applied to GLobal CLimate Change In-Reply-To: <47902A8F.9000000@praxis.com.au> References: <47902A8F.9000000@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: My friend Julian took this video apart pretty comprehensively a few months ago: http://www.somethinkodd.com/oddthinking/2007/10/12/climate-change- debate-and-false-dilemmas/ And, much as I hate to disagree with someone wearing a League of Awesomeness t-shirt, I think Julian is right and this guy's reasoning is faulty. On 18/01/2008, at 3:26 PM, Rick Welykochy wrote: > Linkers, > > I started looking around the interesting website posted easlier > by Mr Scheid (regarding Yellow Pages), and found this little gem. > > > > The video clip sums up quite nicely the consequences of > doing nothing about GCC (and being wrong) vs doing something > perhaps costly (and being wrong). > > How does this apply to Link? Reasoned analysis like this is > easily disseminated now like never before. Public opinion can > be better informed and force policy changes like never before. > > > cheers > rickw > > > > -- > _________________________________ > Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services > > Once a new technology starts rolling, if you're not part of the > steamroller, you're part of the road. > -- Stewart Brand > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link at mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link From cas at taz.net.au Sun Jan 20 13:36:05 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:36:05 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: executable content vs plain data In-Reply-To: <4792A8F8.4090808@praxis.com.au> References: <47902A8F.9000000@praxis.com.au> <20080118212038.GF6828@taz.net.au> <47916590.5000207@praxis.com.au> <20080120002450.GJ6828@taz.net.au> <4792A8F8.4090808@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <20080120023605.GK6828@taz.net.au> On Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 12:50:48PM +1100, Rick Welykochy wrote: > Craig Sanders wrote: > >> flash videos are executable programs. they could do anything. > > Flash videos are in the same class as JPEG images: just data. > > The Flash plugin to play Flash videos is an executable. If you do not > trust it, then you can block flash. no, flash videos are NOT just data. they are data plus program code which is executed by the flash plugin. unless you take special steps to download and view later, you run that code when you view the video. that code could do anything that the author wants - hopefully subject to the sandbox environment of the flash plugin or not if the video author exploits loopholes and bugs in the flash player. it's a risk. and, as is demonstrated by the fact that it is even possible to download and view flash videos later with your own player program, it's a completely unnecessary risk. plain data without executable code would work just as well. >> i don't want to run random programs provided by complete strangers >> on some web site. so, i don't. if they have content that i want to >> view then i find some way to get at that content without having to run >> it...and if i can't do that, then i just give up. it's not worth the >> hassle and it's not worth the risk. > > A secure browser *never* downloads and executes programs without the > user first enabling the download and installation. This is how the > plug-in installation process works. 1. not true in the case of active x and anything else MS wants to include by default in IE. 2. in the case of flash and other plugins that do have to be installed by the user[1], once the user has downloaded and installed the plugin to view one thing, they're now at risk for EVERY web page they visit afterwards. [1] which is not even difficult. visit any page that has such content embedded and your browser will pester you to install the plugin. and it will do so every time you visit such a page, until you click on the button to install it. some people install it just so that they never have to be annoyed by the request again. it's been a while since i saw it (since i run FF with noscript and adblock) but i don't think even firefox has a "no, and don't ask me again" button for that. > Can you give me an example of a web site that provides a *program* > to be run by the browser? youtube. flash videos are programs. they might be 99% video data plus a program, but they're still a program. it's the 1% executable content that is the problem. and many others, including sites hostings things as simple as PDF files. e.g. Adobe's acrobat PDF viewer is more than just a postscript viewer (and postscript is executable code in and of itself). > Flash video is not a video wrapped up as an executable. yes, it is. >>> I do not agree that sites like YouTube and the like are dangerously >>> risky. All I can conclude is that surfing the web with an insecure >> >> i didn't say that youtube was dangerously risky. i said that the habit >> of running random executable programs from web sites was dangerously >> risky. youtube is one of several sites that encourage such risky >> behaviour. > > Once again, give me but one example of a site that requests you download > and execute an executable file. That is, a file that is executable code, > not content. you are missing the point entirely. the distinction is being deliberatly blurred, with code + data being lumped together in one file. that is the danger i am talking about. the issue is the same whether that is done for some bogus notion of "user convenience" or because the publisher wants to exert control over the end user (such as DRM or something even more malevolent) and con them into running their unvetted, unknown program. >> non-techs could just listen to the advice from people who are >> technically literate. > > Experience shows that most people simply do not listen. This alludes > to the concept of the "Internet Dirver's Licence" which many geeks > lament. right, so that's a reason for those of us who do understand the issues to sit smugly on our arses and not even bother attempting to inform people? >> i really don't see any difference. executable content is executable >> content. > > I see quite a difference between content played via a plug-in and the > plug-in itself. The former is just data and the latter is an executable. > > If you have the Adobe PDF Viewer installed as a plug-in, that is an > executable you presumably agreed to have installed in your browser. > > When you download a PDF and view it in using the plug-in, in my dictionary > you are downloading data and viewing it with a plug-in. My dictionary > does not call this downloading executable content, since you cannot "run" > a PDF file. of course you can run a PDF file. PDFs are executable (especially with the extensions in acrobat over the last several years as adobe futilely attempted to make itself a substitute for the web), and postscript itself is a programming language. what you seem to be missing is that both the plugin (flash or acrobat or whatever) *AND* the content files are executable. it's not a simple matter of an executable plugin playing non-executable data content, it's an executable plugin providing an execution environment and a virtual-machine and/or interpreter to run the content program. this is completely different from an mpeg (or divx or avi or ogg etc) player simply playing the data in a file. > I think we are quibbling over definitions. To disambiguate: please tell me > how to "run" a PDF file or a Flash video on my computer. My definition of > "run" or "execute" precludes running a PDF. what you are saying is that a perl (or python or basic or sh or javascript etc etc etc) program is not a program because it requires a separate interpreter to run. > There is no OS program loader for a PDF and there is no executable > (binary or bytecode) in the PDF. once you have the PDF viewer installed, there is. have you never heard of file associations in windows? install acrobat and you will be able to simply double-click on a PDF file in order to execute it. install the PDF browser plugin, and you get to run PDF + postscript programs just by visiting a web page. > Same can be said for a Flash video. same for flash as for PDF, except you don't even have to initiate the execution yourself (e.g. by double clicking), all you have to do is visit a web page which has a flash program embedded in it....it can even run without your knowledge if output is supressed or hidden. > For the latter, one can execute VLC and it will load and play the > video. But you cannot "run" a video in any sense, just as you cannot > "run" a JPEG or Word doc. (Although the latter makes me shiver since > it can contain embedded VB script.) 1. jpegs are just plain data, and thus OK. 2. yes, word/office documents can contain executable code, BUT microsoft isn't the only culprit. they are not the source of all evil. they are just one amongst many. craig -- craig sanders "The Lord is not my shepherd As I am not a sheep" [Peter Canning] From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Sun Jan 20 13:42:56 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:42:56 +1100 Subject: Adobe PDF Plug-in Was [Re: [LINK] Re: executable content vs plain data] In-Reply-To: <4792A8F8.4090808@praxis.com.au> References: <47902A8F.9000000@praxis.com.au> <20080118212038.GF6828@taz.net.au> <47916590.5000207@praxis.com.au> <20080120002450.GJ6828@taz.net.au> <4792A8F8.4090808@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: At 12:50 +1100 20/1/08, Rick Welykochy wrote: >If you have the Adobe PDF Viewer installed as a plug-in, that is an >executable you presumably agreed to have installed in your browser. Actually, no. Well, not in the instance that keeps annoying me. I use (among other things) Safari. I occasionally receive a PDF that Mac's Preview can't handle. By opening Adobe Acrobat 7.0 or Adobe Acrobat Professional 7.0 in order to view such a PDF, the software makes changes to Safari causing it to install and/or activate the plug-in component within Safari. That's emphatically not what I want. I want to download PDFs and then use Preview (or other viewer) to look at them; I do not want to display PDF in my browser window. What's more, I need to open Adobe products sufficiently infrequently that I can never remember where to go to get rid of the plug-in (or at least suppress it firing up). -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From rick at praxis.com.au Sun Jan 20 14:36:51 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:36:51 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: executable content vs plain data In-Reply-To: <20080120023605.GK6828@taz.net.au> References: <47902A8F.9000000@praxis.com.au> <20080118212038.GF6828@taz.net.au> <47916590.5000207@praxis.com.au> <20080120002450.GJ6828@taz.net.au> <4792A8F8.4090808@praxis.com.au> <20080120023605.GK6828@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <4792C1D3.4080200@praxis.com.au> Craig Sanders wrote: > no, flash videos are NOT just data. they are data plus program code > which is executed by the flash plugin. If that is the case, I stand corrected and will accept the fact. So far, I have not seen any evidence of there being interpreted code in a FLV file. >> A secure browser *never* downloads and executes programs without the >> user first enabling the download and installation. This is how the >> plug-in installation process works. > > 1. not true in the case of active x and anything else MS wants to > include by default in IE. ergo my use of the adjective "secure" > 2. in the case of flash and other plugins that do have to be installed > by the user[1], once the user has downloaded and installed the plugin > to view one thing, they're now at risk for EVERY web page they visit > afterwards. I won't argue with that. *Any* piece of code can contain bugs and could possibly be exploited for nefarious purposes. Solution? Turn off your PC, go outside and enjoy meatspace :) >>> non-techs could just listen to the advice from people who are >>> technically literate. >> Experience shows that most people simply do not listen. This alludes >> to the concept of the "Internet Dirver's Licence" which many geeks >> lament. > > right, so that's a reason for those of us who do understand the issues > to sit smugly on our arses and not even bother attempting to inform > people? What nonsense. I tell a person all about insecurities in Windows, why they should not open certain emails and to *never* click on links found in emails. They do not listen. And I am smug. Very rich. No, I am not being smug at all. If you read some of the many many rants I have posted to Link, ad nauseum, about various insecure practices, my actions back up my words: I never stop preaching about this stuff. It is important to me. It is important for a better running Internet. Smug? Nope. Persistent? Yup. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Once a new technology starts rolling, if you're not part of the steamroller, you're part of the road. -- Stewart Brand From robinstephens at gmail.com Sun Jan 20 15:26:56 2008 From: robinstephens at gmail.com (Robin Stephens) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 15:26:56 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: executable content vs plain data In-Reply-To: <4792C1D3.4080200@praxis.com.au> References: <47902A8F.9000000@praxis.com.au> <20080118212038.GF6828@taz.net.au> <47916590.5000207@praxis.com.au> <20080120002450.GJ6828@taz.net.au> <4792A8F8.4090808@praxis.com.au> <20080120023605.GK6828@taz.net.au> <4792C1D3.4080200@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <8056c7e90801192026t7be418bcy365d6d8d6fc1ebe3@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 20, 2008 2:36 PM, Rick Welykochy wrote: > Craig Sanders wrote: > > > no, flash videos are NOT just data. they are data plus program code > > which is executed by the flash plugin. > > If that is the case, I stand corrected and will accept the fact. So far, > I have not seen any evidence of there being interpreted code in a FLV file. Flash video is embedded in SWF for embedding in web pages. Where do you think the play/pause etc buttons come from? FLV by itself does not contain executable code. In the context of this discussion, flash video as streamed from web pages, yes it does. Robin From rick at praxis.com.au Sun Jan 20 15:51:14 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 15:51:14 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: executable content vs plain data In-Reply-To: <8056c7e90801192026t7be418bcy365d6d8d6fc1ebe3@mail.gmail.com> References: <47902A8F.9000000@praxis.com.au> <20080118212038.GF6828@taz.net.au> <47916590.5000207@praxis.com.au> <20080120002450.GJ6828@taz.net.au> <4792A8F8.4090808@praxis.com.au> <20080120023605.GK6828@taz.net.au> <4792C1D3.4080200@praxis.com.au> <8056c7e90801192026t7be418bcy365d6d8d6fc1ebe3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4792D342.1070202@praxis.com.au> Robin Stephens wrote: > Where do you think the play/pause etc buttons come from? The video player. It would be hard to even imagine that every FLV file contains megabytes of player code within it ;) cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Once a new technology starts rolling, if you're not part of the steamroller, you're part of the road. -- Stewart Brand From david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au Sun Jan 20 15:54:08 2008 From: david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au (David Boxall) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 15:54:08 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Of PDFs & DOCs Was:[ Adobe PDF Plug-in Was [executable content vs plain data]] Message-ID: <4792D3F0.8090506@hunterlink.net.au> On another tangent (it is a wet Sunday afternoon, after all). A few months back, a large financial institution had a link on their home page to - supposedly - a pdf file. On a Windows machine, the link didn't work. A little later, I happened to be back on the site using a Linux box and gave the link another try. It worked. Turns out the "pdf file" was actually a Word doc with the extension changed. Whatever the reader was in that Linux installation, it wasn't phased by something that had Windows totally flummoxed. The fact that someone apparently thought that changing the file's extension would convert the file format gives cause to worry about the quality of people managing our finances, as well. Roger Clarke wrote: > At 12:50 +1100 20/1/08, Rick Welykochy wrote: >> If you have the Adobe PDF Viewer installed as a plug-in, that is an >> executable you presumably agreed to have installed in your browser. > > Actually, no. Well, not in the instance that keeps annoying me. > > I use (among other things) Safari. > > I occasionally receive a PDF that Mac's Preview can't handle. > > By opening Adobe Acrobat 7.0 or Adobe Acrobat Professional 7.0 in > order to view such a PDF, the software makes changes to Safari causing > it to install and/or activate the plug-in component within Safari. > > That's emphatically not what I want. I want to download PDFs and then > use Preview (or other viewer) to look at them; I do not want to > display PDF in my browser window. > > What's more, I need to open Adobe products sufficiently infrequently > that I can never remember where to go to get rid of the plug-in (or at > least suppress it firing up). > -- David Boxall | In a hierarchical organization, | the higher the level, | the greater the confusion. | --Dow's Law. From david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au Sun Jan 20 15:56:28 2008 From: david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au (David Boxall) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 15:56:28 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Digital TV could see viewers left in the dark [WAS: Digital TV, live in the clouds, you may not see it] In-Reply-To: <6hhft4$kahbi@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> References: <6hhft4$kahbi@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <4792D47C.2070401@hunterlink.net.au> At 12/01/2008 4:26 PM Jan Whitaker wrote: > http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/digital-tv-could-see-viewers-left-in-the-dark/2008/01/11/1199988590074.html > > > Digital TV could see viewers left in the dark > Daniel Ziffer > January 12, 2008 > > TELEVISIONS across Australia could go dead in two years as analog > signals are switched off, with thousands of homes unable to pick up > the new digital system. > > A study has found that many apartment buildings that dominate the > inner suburbs are unable to receive digital signals as the December > 2009 date looms when the Government wants to switch off the old analog > system in cities. > > The world's tallest residential tower, the Q1 building on the Gold > Coast, is just one complex where residents cannot receive digital > television. > > The chief executive of commercial television industry body Free TV, > Julie Flynn, said the problem was extensive, but not insurmountable. ... I've never lived in a high-rise, so I've no idea of the problems. Evidently, a lot of people (i.e. voters) are affected, so the problem will no doubt be given some priority. Where I live (rural, with a mountain inconveniently positioned between transmitter and home) digital reception is usually better than analogue. That said; when digital fails, it fails completely. At least analogue degrades with some grace (and digital fails more often than analogue). The causes of digital's fragility are difficult to determine. Sometimes, signal strength drops to zero. Has the transmitter failed? Is something between transmitter and receiver blocking the signal? I've no way of knowing. I have noticed that poor digital performance often coincides with poor mains power quality. Interference transmitted from high tension lines is enough to drown out reception on any receiver (mains or battery). Filtering the mains supply helps a bit, but the main problem is EMR from the lines outside the house. So what is it that sometimes introduces so much hash into the mains supply that it causes such severe interference? We certainly need some way of finding out what is causing interference, so it can be fixed. I've no doubt there are people causing problems who have no idea they're doing so. We also need some way of knowing if there's a problem at the transmitter, so we don't waste resources pursuing other suspects. When more (or all) of the broadcaster's income depends on digital performance, maybe they'll get their act together. -- David Boxall | I have seen the past | And it worked. | --TJ Hooker From david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au Sun Jan 20 16:20:42 2008 From: david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au (David Boxall) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 16:20:42 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Pascal's Wager applied to GLobal CLimate Change In-Reply-To: References: <47902A8F.9000000@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <4792DA2A.8050606@hunterlink.net.au> Yes, climate change is horrendously complex. That's the problem: most people can't handle complexity. They really only pay attention to binaries (yes/no, true/false, good/evil, etc.). The video simplifies the problem to a couple of binaries. It's over-simplistic and inaccurate because it leaves out so much, but it's good enough. Within the practicalities of communicating with a mass audience, perfection is not a realistic expectation. I reckon the only real flaw is that he sugar-coats the worst-case scenario. One I read had surface temperatures reaching 400 degrees (Celsius, I think). That'd be really bad for business. By the way, addresses , not . Alastair Rankine wrote: > My friend Julian took this video apart pretty comprehensively a few > months ago: > > http://www.somethinkodd.com/oddthinking/2007/10/12/climate-change-debate-and-false-dilemmas/ > > > And, much as I hate to disagree with someone wearing a League of > Awesomeness t-shirt, I think Julian is right and this guy's reasoning > is faulty. > > > On 18/01/2008, at 3:26 PM, Rick Welykochy wrote: > >> Linkers, >> >> I started looking around the interesting website posted easlier >> by Mr Scheid (regarding Yellow Pages), and found this little gem. >> >> >> >> The video clip sums up quite nicely the consequences of >> doing nothing about GCC (and being wrong) vs doing something >> perhaps costly (and being wrong). >> >> How does this apply to Link? Reasoned analysis like this is >> easily disseminated now like never before. Public opinion can >> be better informed and force policy changes like never before. >> >> >> cheers >> rickw -- David Boxall | My figures are just as good | as any other figures. | I make them up myself, and they | always give me innocent pleasure. | --HL Mencken From robinstephens at gmail.com Sun Jan 20 16:26:39 2008 From: robinstephens at gmail.com (Robin Stephens) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 16:26:39 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: executable content vs plain data In-Reply-To: <4792D342.1070202@praxis.com.au> References: <47902A8F.9000000@praxis.com.au> <20080118212038.GF6828@taz.net.au> <47916590.5000207@praxis.com.au> <20080120002450.GJ6828@taz.net.au> <4792A8F8.4090808@praxis.com.au> <20080120023605.GK6828@taz.net.au> <4792C1D3.4080200@praxis.com.au> <8056c7e90801192026t7be418bcy365d6d8d6fc1ebe3@mail.gmail.com> <4792D342.1070202@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <8056c7e90801192126u3c4827fbsb904165fb2721463@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 20, 2008 3:51 PM, Rick Welykochy wrote: > Robin Stephens wrote: > > > Where do you think the play/pause etc buttons come from? > > The video player. It would be hard to even imagine that every > FLV file contains megabytes of player code within it ;) The video player (codecs) is built into flash player, controlled by buttons drawn inside your browser using... the flash player. >From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_Video Flash Video files can be delivered in several different ways: * As a standalone .FLV file. Although Flash Video files are normally delivered using a Flash player for control, the .FLV file itself is fully-functional on its own and can be played or converted to other formats from local storage such as a hard disk or a CD. From cas at taz.net.au Sun Jan 20 16:48:16 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 16:48:16 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: executable content vs plain data In-Reply-To: <4792C1D3.4080200@praxis.com.au> References: <47902A8F.9000000@praxis.com.au> <20080118212038.GF6828@taz.net.au> <47916590.5000207@praxis.com.au> <20080120002450.GJ6828@taz.net.au> <4792A8F8.4090808@praxis.com.au> <20080120023605.GK6828@taz.net.au> <4792C1D3.4080200@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <20080120054816.GM6828@taz.net.au> On Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 02:36:51PM +1100, Rick Welykochy wrote: > Craig Sanders wrote: > >> no, flash videos are NOT just data. they are data plus program code >> which is executed by the flash plugin. > > If that is the case, I stand corrected and will accept the fact. So far, > I have not seen any evidence of there being interpreted code in a FLV file. it's flash, it can contain anything that any other flash program can. in any case, where do you think the play, pause, etc controls come from? they're not just a standard unchangeable feature of the flash plugin, each video site can - and often does - embed their own player program written for the flash virtual machine. >> 2. in the case of flash and other plugins that do have to be installed >> by the user[1], once the user has downloaded and installed the plugin >> to view one thing, they're now at risk for EVERY web page they visit >> afterwards. > > I won't argue with that. *Any* piece of code can contain bugs and > could possibly be exploited for nefarious purposes. Solution? Turn > off your PC, go outside and enjoy meatspace :) meanwhile, back in the real world, a better alternative would be to NOT conflate data and executables, and to reject attempts by corporations (and governments, and organised crime, and others) to do so. i used to think that one of the most absurd things about Gibson's Neuromancer way back in the 80s was the idea of 'black ice' (security software) that could destroy the brains of those who 'jacked in' to his imaginary cyberspace, because "who'd be dumb enough to execute just any old code that comes their way? especially if it was on a machine plugged directly into their brain?". i guess i was wrong. >>>> non-techs could just listen to the advice from people who are >>>> technically literate. >>> Experience shows that most people simply do not listen. This alludes >>> to the concept of the "Internet Dirver's Licence" which many geeks >>> lament. >> >> right, so that's a reason for those of us who do understand the issues >> to sit smugly on our arses and not even bother attempting to inform >> people? > > What nonsense. I tell a person all about insecurities in Windows, why > they should not open certain emails and to *never* click on links found > in emails. They do not listen. And I am smug. Very rich. no, the smugness was in the implication that we should just say "they're too dumb to ever understand" and dismiss them as ignorant, ineducable rabble who deserve whatever they get. > No, I am not being smug at all. If you read some of the many many rants > I have posted to Link, ad nauseum, about various insecure practices, my > actions back up my words: I never stop preaching about this stuff. It is > important to me. It is important for a better running Internet. Smug? > Nope. Persistent? Yup. well, your comments in this thread were an exception to that. and yes, i did notice and remember your previous position on similar topics. part of what i wrote was to remind you of that. craig -- craig sanders BOFH excuse #118: the router thinks its a printer. From cas at taz.net.au Sun Jan 20 17:17:57 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:17:57 +1100 Subject: executable content vs plain data (was Re: [LINK] Pascal's Wager applied to GLobal CLimate Change) In-Reply-To: <20080119230915.GH6828@taz.net.au> References: <20080118212038.GF6828@taz.net.au> <20080119230915.GH6828@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <20080120061757.GN6828@taz.net.au> On Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 10:09:15AM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote: > > Miro, an Internet TV application, makes this possible in a fairly > > easy way. Streams the YouTube video and automatically converts it > > to a file on your hard drive. > > yeah, i've got miro installed and use it (some of the google talks > and TED lectures are interesting). i know it could search youtube to > construct what it calls a "channel", and now that you point it out, > the "Download video" option in the File menu seems to do the trick for > downloading individual youtube videos. btw, Miro downloaded the video with no problems, then said "Miro can't play this file. You may be able to open it with a different program." it played fine with totem. craig -- craig sanders There are two types of Linux developers - those who can spell, and those who can't. There is a constant pitched battle between the two. -- From one of the post-1.1.54 kernel update messages posted to c.o.l.a From cas at taz.net.au Sun Jan 20 17:28:04 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:28:04 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Digital TV could see viewers left in the dark [WAS: Digital TV, live in the clouds, you may not see it] In-Reply-To: <4792D47C.2070401@hunterlink.net.au> References: <6hhft4$kahbi@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> <4792D47C.2070401@hunterlink.net.au> Message-ID: <20080120062804.GO6828@taz.net.au> On Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 03:56:28PM +1100, David Boxall wrote: > I have noticed that poor digital performance often coincides with > poor mains power quality. Interference transmitted from high tension > lines is enough to drown out reception on any receiver (mains or > battery). interesting you should mention that. my house backs on to Merri Creek in Coburg, Melbourne. There are enormous electricty pylons running all the way along the creek - presumably a convenient access corridor for electricity supply. before i got an SD box, ABC and SBS were often unwatchable, with sprays of white "static" obscuring the picture and the sound breaking up. as soon as i got an SD box, they were both perfect. same antenna, same everything, except for addition of the SD box. the only time there's ever any interference is a noticable 'click' in the audio and sometimes weird pixelated artifacts in the video (both very short-lived) when our bathroom light is switched on or off. it's an old compact-flouro. the newer CFs in all our other rooms don't cause this. craig -- craig sanders "I think he said 'Blessed are the cheesemakers.'" "Nonsense, he was obviously referring to all manufacturers of dairy products." -- The Life of Brian From rick at praxis.com.au Sun Jan 20 18:33:34 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 18:33:34 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: executable content vs plain data In-Reply-To: <20080120054816.GM6828@taz.net.au> References: <47902A8F.9000000@praxis.com.au> <20080118212038.GF6828@taz.net.au> <47916590.5000207@praxis.com.au> <20080120002450.GJ6828@taz.net.au> <4792A8F8.4090808@praxis.com.au> <20080120023605.GK6828@taz.net.au> <4792C1D3.4080200@praxis.com.au> <20080120054816.GM6828@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <4792F94E.9080901@praxis.com.au> Craig Sanders wrote: > On Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 02:36:51PM +1100, Rick Welykochy wrote: >> Craig Sanders wrote: >> >>> no, flash videos are NOT just data. they are data plus program code >>> which is executed by the flash plugin. >> If that is the case, I stand corrected and will accept the fact. So far, >> I have not seen any evidence of there being interpreted code in a FLV file. > > it's flash, it can contain anything that any other flash program can. > > in any case, where do you think the play, pause, etc controls come from? > they're not just a standard unchangeable feature of the flash plugin, > each video site can - and often does - embed their own player program > written for the flash virtual machine. Play a flash video using the Flash Video Player application: [Browser] <-> [Flash] <-> [FVP] <-> [flash video file] View images with the Simple Image Viewer application: [Browser] <-> [Flash] <-> [SIV] <-> [image files] The content on the far RHS is non-executable data. I think you are refering to the Flash application that is loaded into the Flash plug-in. The FVP is *not* inside each Flash Video File, in the same way that the SIV is *not* inside each image file. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Once a new technology starts rolling, if you're not part of the steamroller, you're part of the road. -- Stewart Brand From sylvano at gnomon.com.au Sun Jan 20 19:05:06 2008 From: sylvano at gnomon.com.au (sylvano) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:05:06 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Digital TV could see viewers left in the dark [WAS: Digital TV, live in the clouds, you may not see it] In-Reply-To: <20080120062804.GO6828@taz.net.au> References: <6hhft4$kahbi@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> <4792D47C.2070401@hunterlink.net.au> <20080120062804.GO6828@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <200801201905.07056.sylvano@gnomon.com.au> On Sunday 20 January 2008 17:28, Craig Sanders wrote: > the only time there's ever any interference is a noticable 'click' in > the audio and sometimes weird pixelated artifacts in the video (both > very short-lived) when our bathroom light is switched on or off. it's > an old compact-flouro. the newer CFs in all our other rooms don't cause > this. Interestingly, I got that effect as well from the hand held gas lighter gun for lighting my stove... Now that I've moved from an aerial feed to the screen to a video-in feed, the electrical induced clicks don't happen. The other noticeable effect that surprised me was the availability of regional stations (I'm in the lower north shore of Sydney) that aren't there with analogue. With the autoscan function of the digital boxes, I wonder how many other people have suddenly gotten access to free to air variants, on top of the expected new channels of the parliamentary network, the expo channel, macquarie network, etc. -- Sylvano From cas at taz.net.au Sun Jan 20 19:34:57 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:34:57 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Digital TV could see viewers left in the dark [WAS: Digital TV, live in the clouds, you may not see it] In-Reply-To: <200801201905.07056.sylvano@gnomon.com.au> References: <6hhft4$kahbi@ipmail01.adl6.internode.on.net> <4792D47C.2070401@hunterlink.net.au> <20080120062804.GO6828@taz.net.au> <200801201905.07056.sylvano@gnomon.com.au> Message-ID: <20080120083456.GP6828@taz.net.au> On Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 07:05:06PM +1100, sylvano wrote: > On Sunday 20 January 2008 17:28, Craig Sanders wrote: > > > the only time there's ever any interference is a noticable 'click' in > > the audio and sometimes weird pixelated artifacts in the video (both > > very short-lived) when our bathroom light is switched on or off. it's > > an old compact-flouro. the newer CFs in all our other rooms don't cause > > this. > > Interestingly, I got that effect as well from the hand held gas lighter gun > for lighting my stove... not surprising. if CFs are like standard flouros, then a spark is required to start it glowing. and gas ligher guns generally have a piezo-electic crystal to light the gas with a spark. electrical sparks cause all sorts of RF noise across a very broad frequency range (a "feature" exploited by old-fashioned spark gap transmitters[1]...which, IIRC, nobody uses any more. they're banned most places anyway) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark-gap_transmitter > The other noticeable effect that surprised me was the availability > of regional stations (I'm in the lower north shore of Sydney) that > aren't there with haven't noticed that myself, but i live in inner suburban melbourne....a long way from any regional transmitters. craig -- craig sanders BOFH excuse #187: Reformatting Page. Wait... From cas at taz.net.au Sun Jan 20 19:59:44 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:59:44 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: executable content vs plain data In-Reply-To: <8056c7e90801192126u3c4827fbsb904165fb2721463@mail.gmail.com> References: <47902A8F.9000000@praxis.com.au> <20080118212038.GF6828@taz.net.au> <47916590.5000207@praxis.com.au> <20080120002450.GJ6828@taz.net.au> <4792A8F8.4090808@praxis.com.au> <20080120023605.GK6828@taz.net.au> <4792C1D3.4080200@praxis.com.au> <8056c7e90801192026t7be418bcy365d6d8d6fc1ebe3@mail.gmail.com> <4792D342.1070202@praxis.com.au> <8056c7e90801192126u3c4827fbsb904165fb2721463@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080120085944.GQ6828@taz.net.au> On Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 04:26:39PM +1100, Robin Stephens wrote: > >From Wikipedia: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_Video > > Flash Video files can be delivered in several different ways: > > * As a standalone .FLV file. Although Flash Video files are > normally delivered using a Flash player for control, the .FLV file > itself is fully-functional on its own and can be played or converted > to other formats from local storage such as a hard disk or a CD. and the most relevant delivery option for this discussion mentioned on that wikipedia page is: * Progressive download via HTTP (supported in Flash Player 7 and later). This method uses ActionScript to include an externally hosted Flash Video file client-side for playback. Progressive download has several advantages, including buffering, use of generic HTTP servers, and the ability to reuse a single SWF player for multiple Flash Video sources. Flash Player 8 includes support for random access within video files using the partial download functionality of HTTP, sometimes this is referred to as streaming. However, unlike streaming using RTMP, HTTP "streaming" does not support real-time broadcasting. Streaming via HTTP requires a custom player and the injection of specific Flash Video metadata containing the exact starting position in bytes and timecode of each keyframe. Using this specific information, a custom Flash Video player can request any part of the Flash Video file starting at a specified keyframe. For example, Google Video and Youtube support progressive downloading and can seek to any part of the video before buffering is complete. The server-side part of this "HTTP pseudo-streaming" method is fairly simple to implement, for example in PHP, as an Apache HTTPD module, or a lighttpd module. ActionScript is a programming language. Google, Youtube, and others have their own custom FLV player written in ActionScript, and executed by the Flash plugin's virtual machine. craig -- craig sanders BOFH excuse #254: Interference from lunar radiation From stephen at melbpc.org.au Mon Jan 21 01:01:14 2008 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen at melbpc.org.au) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:01:14 GMT Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista Message-ID: <20080120140114.E401B176B5@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> Lyndon writes, > Subject: Re: [Oz-teachers] Windows XP versus Vista > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:52:45 +0900 > From: Lyndon Sharp You may find this interesting .. Vista has not yet taken off (in the educational community at least). I have just completed my annual analytics of the Board of Studies NSW website for the whole of 2007. As the Board website has a lot of traffic, the folllowing figures might be representative of the 'educational community' (teachers, parents, students, school system networks, libraries, etc.) Of the 1,697,882 people who visited the Board website 4,116,984 times - and looked at 16,779,333 pages during 2007, 94.50% of them used Windows and 5.12% of them MacOS. Of the Windows users, 90.86% used XP and 4.84% used Vista (2.44% used Windows 2000.) That is, there are currently still less Vista users than Mac users. Not on the same topic, but may be of related interest - whilst Firefox is rising rapidly - it is still the case that 66.71% of our visitors are using Internet Explorer 6 and still only 32.91% have moved up to IE 7. Falling rapidly (thank goodness) are the numbers of people who are still using 800x600 resolution screens (6.37%), with 52.22% using 1024x768 and everyone else is using much bigger screens (1280x800, 1152x864, 1440x900, 1680x1050, etc) .. If you are interested in any of these statistics of website use, by the way, let me know and I'll post a few more. Cheers. Lyndon Sharp ---------------- 0419 211 120 lyndon.sharp at bos.nsw.edu.au lyndons at ozemail.com.au -- On Sat Jan 19 7:09, stephen at melbpc.org.au sent: .. Quite ridiculuosly, Vista demands 40 gig of space and a gig ram to run thus making obsolete 90% of the world's computing hardware, especially for schools and communities in developing countries. On the other hand MS XP-SP3 is fast, reliable and really only needs to see pentiums. But yet Microsoft is killing XP. If Gates really wants to be philanthropic he should, as the InfoWorld petition requests, simply continue to have XP supported and also come out with as many Vista upgrades as he wants. For all of us with broadband-dual-core-2-gig-ram grunters who say Vista is great, I'm very sincerely happy for you. But the digital divide will soon get a whole lot wider when XP dies, and, otherwise useful machines will end up as landfill all over the world. It seems really wrong to me. So dear colleagues, I guess my whole point is, please do enjoy whatever OS you have, if it's reliable, and fast enough, but spare a thought for our third world, and sign the InfoWorld petition, for NO XP DEATH DATE!! http://www.SaveXP.com And in all the schools and post offices of so very many towns and traditional villages in the Philippines (Pop:80M) where slow pentiums, dot-matrix printers & modems reign, as in all third world countries, it's Windows XP that's giving people a future. But viruses are rife, and it's a fragile system socially and technically. Now would be a brilliant time the charitable distro of a will-run-on-anything-with-drivers-for-everything open source Operating System. Thanks Lyndon Stephen Loosley Victoria Australia From brd at iimetro.com.au Mon Jan 21 08:49:08 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 08:49:08 +1100 Subject: [LINK] ICE Message-ID: <4793C1D4.7060704@iimetro.com.au> Technically this is spam. Message from NSW Ambulance Service: We all carry our mobile phones with names & numbers stored in its memory but nobody, other than if we were to be involved in an accident or were taken ill, the people attending us would have our mobile phone but wouldn't know who to call. Yes, there are hundreds of numbers stored but which one is the contact person in case of an emergency? Hence this "ICE" (In Case of Emergency) Campaign. The concept of "ICE" is catching on quickly. It is a method of contact during emergency situations. As cell phones are carried by the majority of the population, all you need to do is store the number of a contact person or persons who should be contacted during emergency under the name "ICE" ( In Case Of Emergency). The idea was thought up by a paramedic who found that when he went to the scenes of accidents, there were always mobile phones with patients, but they didn't know which number to call. He therefore thought that it would be a good idea if there was a nationally recognized name for this purpose. In an emergency situation, Emergency Service personnel and hospital Staff would be able to quickly contact the right person by simply dialling the number you have stored as "ICE". Please forward this. It won't take too many "forwards" before everybody will know about this. It really could save your life, or put a loved one's mind at rest. For more than one contact name simply enter ICE1, ICE2 and ICE3 etc. End Message from NSW Ambulance Service -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From scott at doc.net.au Mon Jan 21 09:48:21 2008 From: scott at doc.net.au (Scott Howard) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 09:48:21 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <20080120140114.E401B176B5@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> References: <20080120140114.E401B176B5@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: Ahh the joy of being able to make statistics say whatever you want.... On 1/21/08, stephen at melbpc.org.au wrote: > > > From: Lyndon Sharp > > I have just completed my annual analytics of the Board of Studies NSW > website for the whole of 2007. [...] That is, there are currently still less Vista users than Mac users. "whole of 2007" and "currently" are clearly two very different time periods - especially when you're talking about an OS which hasn't even been available for "the whole of 2007". A more realistic statistic would be to re-do the counts including only the past 1 or (at most) 3 months. If Vista managed 4.57% when averaged over the whole year, then I'd be very surprised if it didn't beat MacOS's 5.12% if you were looking only over a shorter time period. Scott. From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Mon Jan 21 10:02:26 2008 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (Richard Chirgwin) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:02:26 +1100 Subject: [LINK] ICE In-Reply-To: <4793C1D4.7060704@iimetro.com.au> References: <4793C1D4.7060704@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <4793D302.7040703@ozemail.com.au> Not just "technically spam", Bernard, it's a hoax e-mail. > The Ambulance Service has not launched any campaign supporting ICE (In > Case of > Emergency). Ambulance supports any method of contacting family in a > critical medical > emergency. Methods that can be used include information in diaries, > wallets, drivers? > licences, and mobile phones. The concept of ICE has merit and would be > another source of > information to assist with identification. http://www.ambulance.nsw.gov.au/docs/releases/2008/080117ice.pdf Now, it may be a harmless hoax, but a hoax it is... RC Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > > Technically this is spam. > > > Message from NSW Ambulance Service: > > We all carry our mobile phones with names & numbers stored in its > memory but nobody, other than if we were to be involved in an accident > or were taken ill, the people attending us would have our mobile phone > but wouldn't know who to call. Yes, there are hundreds of numbers > stored but which one is the contact person in case of an emergency? > Hence this "ICE" (In Case of Emergency) Campaign. > > The concept of "ICE" is catching on quickly. It is a method of contact > during emergency situations. As cell phones are carried by the majority > of the population, all you need to do is store the number of a contact > person or persons who should be contacted during emergency under the > name "ICE" ( In Case Of Emergency). > > The idea was thought up by a paramedic who found that when he went to > the scenes of accidents, there were always mobile phones with patients, > but they didn't know which number to call. He therefore thought that it > would be a good idea if there was a nationally recognized name for this > purpose. In an emergency situation, Emergency Service personnel and > hospital Staff would be able to quickly contact the right person by > simply dialling the number you have stored as "ICE". > > Please forward this. > > It won't take too many "forwards" before everybody will know about > this. It really could save your life, or put a loved one's mind at rest. > For more than one contact name simply enter ICE1, ICE2 and ICE3 etc. > > End Message from NSW Ambulance Service > From arsptr at internode.on.net Mon Jan 21 10:12:45 2008 From: arsptr at internode.on.net (Alastair Rankine) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:12:45 +1100 Subject: executable content vs plain data (was Re: [LINK] Pascal's Wager applied to GLobal CLimate Change) In-Reply-To: <20080118212038.GF6828@taz.net.au> References: <47902A8F.9000000@praxis.com.au> <20080118212038.GF6828@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <4793D56D.9080100@internode.on.net> Craig Sanders wrote: > > or download it (which can be a difficult exercise in itself - youtube > wants you to stream the video, not download it and view it at your > leisure) and attempt to extract the video data from the executable. > > I've been using Miro (http://www.getmiro.com) for successfully and easily downloading YouTube videos for a while now. Here's the recipe: 1. Create an account in YouTube, 2. Create an RSS feed for your favourite videos here: http://ubeek.com/youtube/ 3. Install Miro 4. Subscribe to the favourites feed in Miro Now, to easily download videos from YouTube, just "favorite" them. Start up Miro (or refresh the RSS feed) and it will download the video quickly and painlessly. Alternatively, Miro has a very nice search interface which shows up the YouTube results directly and will allow downloads from there. Recommended. From brd at iimetro.com.au Mon Jan 21 10:12:52 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:12:52 +1100 Subject: [LINK] ICE In-Reply-To: <4793D302.7040703@ozemail.com.au> References: <4793C1D4.7060704@iimetro.com.au> <4793D302.7040703@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <4793D574.6080705@iimetro.com.au> Richard Chirgwin wrote: > Not just "technically spam", Bernard, it's a hoax e-mail. As a matter of interest Richard, how did you know it was a hoax? -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From info at gnomon.com.au Mon Jan 21 10:25:35 2008 From: info at gnomon.com.au (Sylvano) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:25:35 +1100 Subject: [LINK] ICE Message-ID: <21ab1680060b4afca79fbdf84cfb799f.info@gnomon.com.au> From: Bernard Robertson-Dunn [mailto:brd at iimetro.com.au] Sent: 1/21/2008 10:12:52 AM To: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Cc: link at anu.edu.au Subject: Re: [LINK] ICE > Richard Chirgwin wrote: > > > Not just "technically spam", Bernard, it's a hoax e-mail. > > As a matter of interest Richard, how did you know it was a hoax? They'e not, it seems.... http://www.ambulance.nsw.gov.au/docs/releases/2008/080117ice.pdf In particular they point out: "IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE: in cases involving more than one patient or a where a mobile phone has been borrowed from someone else, it may be difficult to confidently match personal belongings to any one individual. This may in turn lead to unnecessary distress. The Ambulance Service also advises that as with all stored personal information, individuals need to be mindful of confidentiality issues." Sylvano Gnomon Publishing http://www.gnomon.com.au/ From ivan at itrundle.com Mon Jan 21 10:25:28 2008 From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:25:28 +1100 Subject: executable content vs plain data (was Re: [LINK] Pascal's Wager applied to GLobal CLimate Change) In-Reply-To: <4793D56D.9080100@internode.on.net> References: <47902A8F.9000000@praxis.com.au> <20080118212038.GF6828@taz.net.au> <4793D56D.9080100@internode.on.net> Message-ID: On 21/01/2008, at 10:12 AM, Alastair Rankine wrote: > Craig Sanders wrote: >> >> or download it (which can be a difficult exercise in itself - youtube >> wants you to stream the video, not download it and view it at your >> leisure) and attempt to extract the video data from the executable. >> >> > I've been using Miro (http://www.getmiro.com) for successfully and > easily downloading YouTube videos for a while now. Here's the recipe: > > 1. Create an account in YouTube, > 2. Create an RSS feed for your favourite videos here: http://ubeek.com/youtube/ > 3. Install Miro > 4. Subscribe to the favourites feed in Miro > > Now, to easily download videos from YouTube, just "favorite" them. > Start up Miro (or refresh the RSS feed) and it will download the > video quickly and painlessly. > > Alternatively, Miro has a very nice search interface which shows up > the YouTube results directly and will allow downloads from there. > > Recommended. > _______________ ...and for Mac users, I recommend TubeTV (free) - no account needed, no setup, no mucking about - just browse and save. iT From info at gnomon.com.au Mon Jan 21 10:26:59 2008 From: info at gnomon.com.au (Sylvano) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:26:59 +1100 Subject: [LINK] ICE (clarifying) Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Bernard Robertson-Dunn [mailto:brd at iimetro.com.au] > As a matter of interest Richard, how did you know it was a hoax? > > -- I mean that "they're not" from the Ambulance service, that is ;-) Gnomon Publishing http://www.gnomon.com.au/> From scott at doc.net.au Mon Jan 21 10:29:35 2008 From: scott at doc.net.au (Scott Howard) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:29:35 +1100 Subject: [LINK] ICE In-Reply-To: <4793D574.6080705@iimetro.com.au> References: <4793C1D4.7060704@iimetro.com.au> <4793D302.7040703@ozemail.com.au> <4793D574.6080705@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: On 1/21/08, Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > > Richard Chirgwin wrote: > > > Not just "technically spam", Bernard, it's a hoax e-mail. > > As a matter of interest Richard, how did you know it was a hoax? About 3 seconds on Google shows it is a hoax ("nsw ambulance ice" without the quotes). Personally I've seen enough of this type of email that I'm immediately suspicious and hit Google for all of them, although in this case it pretty much stands out itself - the wording isn't what you'd expect from an organisation like the NSW Ambulance service, incorrect capitalisation, use of "&", etc. But the real give away? US spelling... "recognized" Scott. From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Mon Jan 21 10:31:02 2008 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (Richard Chirgwin) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:31:02 +1100 Subject: [LINK] ICE In-Reply-To: <4793D574.6080705@iimetro.com.au> References: <4793C1D4.7060704@iimetro.com.au> <4793D302.7040703@ozemail.com.au> <4793D574.6080705@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <4793D9B6.8020108@ozemail.com.au> Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > Richard Chirgwin wrote: > >> Not just "technically spam", Bernard, it's a hoax e-mail. > > As a matter of interest Richard, how did you know it was a hoax? > It rang a faint bell ... it's circulated before, so I googled ICE and NSW Ambulance Service and presto ... RC From brd at iimetro.com.au Mon Jan 21 10:57:45 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:57:45 +1100 Subject: [LINK] ICE In-Reply-To: <4793D9B6.8020108@ozemail.com.au> References: <4793C1D4.7060704@iimetro.com.au> <4793D302.7040703@ozemail.com.au> <4793D574.6080705@iimetro.com.au> <4793D9B6.8020108@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <4793DFF9.4070403@iimetro.com.au> Richard Chirgwin wrote: > Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > >> Richard Chirgwin wrote: >> >>> Not just "technically spam", Bernard, it's a hoax e-mail. >> >> As a matter of interest Richard, how did you know it was a hoax? >> > It rang a faint bell ... it's circulated before, so I googled ICE and > NSW Ambulance Service and presto ... > > RC Ah... those faint bells. Quasimodo would be proud of you :-) -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From dlochrin at d2.net.au Mon Jan 21 11:21:58 2008 From: dlochrin at d2.net.au (David Lochrin) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 11:21:58 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Expert advise sought please... In-Reply-To: References: <478E8F8C.3030800@lannet.com.au> <4790A24D.7090208@umd.com.au> Message-ID: <200801211121.59167.dlochrin@d2.net.au> On Saturday 19 January 2008 10:58, Roger Clarke wrote: > One of the important uses of parts-identifiers is and will be to > enable investigations into accidents (e.g. a 777 crash-landing at > LHR). > [...] > If the component is missing, so is the data contained in a chip > that's integrated into the component. > > So it will be essential (and, to my understanding, is already a legal > requirement) that the operator maintain and have accessible by > investigators the full maintenance record of all controlled > components on the aircraft. > > So, if there's a full record outside the aircraft, what are the > benefits of a full record integral to the aircraft itself? These are good points. I believe parts tracking is required for sub- sub-assemblies down to things like engine fans. These get very hot, and I can't imagine any design of RFID tag which would survive that environment. The Boeing project was probably a warehouse system. But there's a more fundamental consideration of good systems design. Almost all aircraft accidents result from more that one failure (mechanical, procedural, etc). In similar fashion, it's just too easy for a database to accumulate errors - for example, the database says that aircraft 'a' includes engine 'b' which includes fan 'c' when it's actually fan 'z' - and in an accident investigation one would like to be able to confirm by direct inspection of an engraved serial number which fan was involved. It may well be that some mistake like that contributed to the accident. Disclaimer: my experience in the airline industry is now rather old!! David From peter at ratbags.com Mon Jan 21 14:29:18 2008 From: peter at ratbags.com (Peter Bowditch) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:29:18 +1100 Subject: [LINK] ICE In-Reply-To: <4793D574.6080705@iimetro.com.au> References: <4793C1D4.7060704@iimetro.com.au>, <4793D302.7040703@ozemail.com.au>, <4793D574.6080705@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <4794AC3E.2665.54827EA@peter.ratbags.com> bernard asked: > Richard Chirgwin wrote: > > > Not just "technically spam", Bernard, it's a hoax e-mail. > > As a matter of interest Richard, how did you know it was a hoax? I knew as soon as I saw the words "cell phone". -- Peter Bowditch The Millenium Project - http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud - http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics - http://www.skeptics.com.au From georgebray at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 15:17:55 2008 From: georgebray at gmail.com (George Bray) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:17:55 +1100 Subject: [LINK] ETT spruiks satellite broadband in face of OPEL and Govt plans In-Reply-To: <47919A05.7090405@hunterlink.net.au> References: <47919A05.7090405@hunterlink.net.au> Message-ID: <635bd2180801202017r1156c5f2g991740f719ca71f5@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 19, 2008 5:34 PM, David Boxall wrote: > From where I am (32?51'S; 151?15'E), the satellite is so low in the sky > that it doesn't take much of a tree to cause problems. We *are* talking > about the bush here. Where (apart from up) is the IPSTAR satellite anyway? 119.5E http://www.lyngsat.com/tracker/ipstar.html -- George Bray, The Australian National University, Canberra, Australia. From nospam at crm911.com Mon Jan 21 17:43:18 2008 From: nospam at crm911.com (Ash Nallawalla) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:43:18 +1100 Subject: [LINK] ICE In-Reply-To: References: <4793C1D4.7060704@iimetro.com.au> <4793D302.7040703@ozemail.com.au> <4793D574.6080705@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <005401c85bf8$e897d220$b9c77660$@com> Generally, any email that asks you to tell others to "pass it on, can't hurt, just in case" is a hoax because real alerts are passed on through the traditional news media and, in urgent cases, by direct mail. I tend to grab some unique-looking sentence and Google it. I used "He therefore thought that it would be a good idea if there was a nationally recognized name for this purpose". See this American version: http://activerain.com/blogsview/101557/Do-You-Have-ICE (I love the East Anglican Ambulance Service). I then Googled "East Anglican Ambulance Service", which brought forth many more suckers, including our very own ABC Radio back in 2005. http://www.abc.net.au/melbourne/stories/s1424165.htm Now the East Anglican Ambos even have "Matthew Ware, a spokesman for the East Anglican Ambulance service". Googling this Matthew Ware brought forth many more instances when he worked for the similarly named East Anglian Ambulance Service. Obviously some well-meaning person actually retyped the story and created the Anglican version. It came to a crashing end at Snopes, which should be mentioned to anyone who sends you one of those "pass it on" stories: http://www.snopes.com/crime/prevent/icephone.asp Have you all seen the PPT/PPS slide show that craps on about the price of "gasoline", Bush, Cheney and then purports to show a palatial building and says that it is a palace occupied by the Sheikh of Abu Dhabi? It is actually a hotel: http://www.emiratespalace.com Perhaps the Link Institute should create its own hoax email and see how far it goes? Ash > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Howard > Personally I've seen enough of this type of email that I'm immediately > suspicious and hit Google for all of them, although in this case it > pretty > much stands out itself - the wording isn't what you'd expect from an > organisation like the NSW Ambulance service, incorrect capitalisation, > use > of "&", etc. > > But the real give away? US spelling... "recognized" From rick at praxis.com.au Mon Jan 21 18:55:17 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 18:55:17 +1100 Subject: [LINK] ICE In-Reply-To: <005401c85bf8$e897d220$b9c77660$@com> References: <4793C1D4.7060704@iimetro.com.au> <4793D302.7040703@ozemail.com.au> <4793D574.6080705@iimetro.com.au> <005401c85bf8$e897d220$b9c77660$@com> Message-ID: <47944FE5.5070009@praxis.com.au> Ash Nallawalla wrote: > Perhaps the Link Institute should create its own hoax email and see how far > it goes? There have been some great press releases throughout Link's history, authored by the authoritative Prof. Klerphel. We have not been graced with one of these for a while. (I would have thought Klerphel would have had lots of ammunition with the Howard Regime in power) I suppose these press releases never traveled further than this list. Although given the number of misconceptions and plain old crap reportage we have debunked on the list, perhaps they should travel far and wide :) cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Once a new technology starts rolling, if you're not part of the steamroller, you're part of the road. -- Stewart Brand From robinstephens at gmail.com Mon Jan 21 19:11:35 2008 From: robinstephens at gmail.com (Robin Stephens) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:11:35 +1100 Subject: [LINK] ICE In-Reply-To: <4793CBBD.3030009@lannet.com.au> References: <4793C1D4.7060704@iimetro.com.au> <4793CBBD.3030009@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <8056c7e90801210011h2ca4dc66nd9bd7e2731fd41ce@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 21, 2008 9:31 AM, Howard Lowndes wrote: > I've used this concept for years. In fact mine go "ICE 1" thru "ICE 4" > > Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > > > > Technically this is spam. About 1 year ago, I recieved a spam text from Telstra suggesting I put an ICE number in my phone. Someone from Telstra obviously fell for it. From david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au Mon Jan 21 20:31:52 2008 From: david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au (David Boxall) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 20:31:52 +1100 Subject: [LINK] ipstar and open standards [Was: ETT spruiks satellite broadband in face of OPEL and Govt plans] Message-ID: <47946688.4050205@hunterlink.net.au> George Bray wrote: > On Jan 19, 2008 5:34 PM, David Boxall > wrote: >> Where (apart from up) is the IPSTAR satellite anyway? > > 119.5E > http://www.lyngsat.com/tracker/ipstar.html Thanks George, That would put it somewhere above Sulawesi: . Things could be worse - if I was one of their New Zealand customers. Presumably, I'd need to have a clear view of the Tasman (and hope the waves don't get too high). I guess it's a miracle the thing works at all, so far East of the satellite. Tinkering with the ipstar modem, I discovered that the configuration page doesn't work in Firefox. This tag from the page source probably gives a clue to the reason: . Funny thing is, it doesn't work reliably in IE 6 or 7 either. -- David Boxall | Any given program, | when running correctly, | is obsolete. | --Arthur C. Clarke From david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au Mon Jan 21 20:35:23 2008 From: david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au (David Boxall) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 20:35:23 +1100 Subject: [LINK] CIA Admits Cyberattacks Blacked Out Cities Message-ID: <4794675B.3020701@hunterlink.net.au> Here we go again. " Citing two Government Accountability Office reports on SCADA security, Paller said that people have been adding wireless and Windows to SCADA systems without really thinking about security. "They're gotten radically unsafe," he said." -- David Boxall | The more that wise people learn | The more they come to appreciate | How much they don't know. --Confucius From lealink at viking.org.au Mon Jan 21 21:38:14 2008 From: lealink at viking.org.au (Lea de Groot) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 20:38:14 +1000 Subject: [LINK] ICE In-Reply-To: <8056c7e90801210011h2ca4dc66nd9bd7e2731fd41ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <4793C1D4.7060704@iimetro.com.au> <4793CBBD.3030009@lannet.com.au> <8056c7e90801210011h2ca4dc66nd9bd7e2731fd41ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080121203814233471.abc9fb0b@viking.org.au> On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:11:35 +1100, Robin Stephens wrote: > About 1 year ago, I recieved a spam text from Telstra suggesting I put > an ICE number in my phone. Someone from Telstra obviously fell for > it. Just because it didn't originate from the Ambos doesn't mean it isn't at least a halfway good idea :) Lea -- Lea de Goot BrisVegas From stephen at melbpc.org.au Tue Jan 22 02:14:49 2008 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen at melbpc.org.au) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:14:49 GMT Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista Message-ID: <20080121151449.BF303176DE@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> Now that the majority of the world has access to a computer and the Internet, to maintain that access, Microsoft (the US) is demanding new hardware. Instead, many in Asia and elsewhere will seek free alternatives, for example, Red Flag Linux (China) which is running on 80-95% of all of China's open source machines. And, when the local communities save enough for another new computer one wonders if it be an Eastern or Western made and operated machine? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Flag_Linux > Subject: [OZTL_NET] Re: Windows XP versus Vista > Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 09:22:52 +0800 > From: Monica @xxx.edu.hk Dear Stephen and Lyndon I am in Hong Kong, and now the standard operating system on any new computer you buy is Vista, this has been the standard for about 3 months now. Previous to that we used to get a choice of XP or Vista, now only Vista. That's personal computers. Obviously Hong Kong is a leader in sales and marketing of technology... the change is coming. Monica teacher librarian xxx International School Hong Kong >>> 01/20/08 10:01 pm >>> Lyndon writes, > Subject: Re: [Oz-teachers] Windows XP versus Vista > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:52:45 +0900 > From: Lyndon Sharp < lyndons at ozemail.com.au > You may find this interesting .. Vista has not yet taken off (in the educational community at least). I have just completed my annual analytics of the Board of Studies NSW website for the whole of 2007. As the Board website has a lot of traffic, the folllowing figures might be representative of the 'educational community' (teachers, parents, students, school system networks, libraries, etc.) Of the 1,697,882 people who visited the Board website 4,116,984 times - and looked at 16,779,333 pages during 2007, 94.50% of them used Windows and 5.12% of them MacOS. Of the Windows users, 90.86% used XP and 4.84% used Vista (2.44% used Windows 2000.) That is, there are currently still less Vista users than Mac users. Not on the same topic, but may be of related interest - whilst Firefox is rising rapidly - it is still the case that 66.71% of our visitors are using Internet Explorer 6 and still only 32.91% have moved up to IE 7. Falling rapidly (thank goodness) are the numbers of people who are still using 800x600 resolution screens (6.37%), with 52.22% using 1024x768 and everyone else is using much bigger screens (1280x800, 1152x864, 1440x900, 1680x1050, etc) .. If you are interested in any of these statistics of website use, by the way, let me know and I'll post a few more. Cheers. Lyndon Sharp ---------------- 0419 211 120 lyndon.sharp at bos.nsw.edu.au lyndons at ozemail.com.au -- On Sat Jan 19 7:09, stephen at melbpc.org.au sent: .. Quite ridiculuosly, Vista demands 40 gig of space and a gig ram to run thus making obsolete 90% of the world's computing hardware, especially for schools and communities in developing countries. On the other hand MS XP-SP3 is fast, reliable and really only needs to see pentiums. But yet Microsoft is killing XP. If Gates really wants to be philanthropic he should, as the InfoWorld petition requests, simply continue to have XP supported and also come out with as many Vista upgrades as he wants. For all of us with broadband-dual-core-2-gig-ram grunters who say Vista is great, I'm very sincerely happy for you. But the digital divide will soon get a whole lot wider when XP dies, and, otherwise useful machines will end up as landfill all over the world. It seems really wrong to me. So dear colleagues, I guess my whole point is, please do enjoy whatever OS you have, if it's reliable, and fast enough, but spare a thought for our third world, and sign the InfoWorld petition, for NO XP DEATH DATE! http://www.SaveXP.com And in all the schools and post offices of so very many towns and traditional villages in the Philippines (Pop:80M) where slow pentiums, dot-matrix printers & modems reign, as in all third world countries, it's Windows XP that's giving people a future. But viruses are rife, and it's a fragile system socially and technically. Now would be a brilliant time the charitable distro of a will-run-on-anything-with-drivers-for-everything open source Operating System. Cheers people Stephen Loosley Member, Victorian Institute of Teaching From ivan at itrundle.com Tue Jan 22 08:25:41 2008 From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 08:25:41 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <20080121151449.BF303176DE@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> References: <20080121151449.BF303176DE@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <14BB3C2C-737E-47F2-86E1-1D343D0E8BE9@itrundle.com> On 22/01/2008, at 2:14 AM, stephen at melbpc.org.au wrote: > Now that the majority of the world has access to a computer > and the Internet, Is this so? 'Has access' is a very loose term, and I am sure that it would not be difficult to announce that 100% of the world 'has access to a computer and the internet' - it's just that they need to travel to a place with electricity, and a computer, and one with an internet connection. > to maintain that access, Microsoft (the US) > is demanding new hardware. Why does this follow? I don't see the connection. In any event, why is the United States demanding new hardware? > Instead, many in Asia and elsewhere > will seek free alternatives, for example, Red Flag Linux (China) > which is running on 80-95% of all of China's open source machines. And if there were only 100 open-source machines in China, that would amount to almost 95 machines. Sorry, but this appears to be a collection of sloppy statistics... We might well ponder if the computer be made in the east or the west (it doesn't matter to me: I'm typing on a machine made in Shanghai), but it is inevitable that computers will be designed in places that stimulate the most innovation and creative thought, and made in places that offer the cheapest labour and manufacturing: the two won't necessarily be the same, and are unlikely to be so. iT -- Ivan Trundle http://itrundle.com ivan at itrundle.com ph: +61 (0)418 244 259 fx: +61 (0)2 6286 8742 skype: callto://ivanovitchk From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Tue Jan 22 09:48:06 2008 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (Richard Chirgwin) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:48:06 +1100 Subject: [LINK] CIA Admits Cyberattacks Blacked Out Cities In-Reply-To: <4794675B.3020701@hunterlink.net.au> References: <4794675B.3020701@hunterlink.net.au> Message-ID: <47952126.2030509@ozemail.com.au> Wow ... I love the gap between the scary headline and the very thin detail in the CIA statement: "We have information, from multiple regions outside the United States, of cyber intrusions into utilities, followed by extortion demands. We suspect, but cannot confirm, that some of these attackers had the benefit of inside knowledge. We have information that cyberattacks have been used to disrupt power equipment in several regions outside the United States. In at least one case, the disruption caused a power outage affecting multiple cities. We do not know who executed these attacks or why, but all involved intrusions through the Internet." Let's disassemble the statement: > We have information, from multiple regions outside the United States, > of cyber intrusions into utilities, followed by extortion demands. ..."information" is, in CIA-speak, a different creature to "verification". It means "someone said something happened". > We suspect, but cannot confirm, that some of these attackers had the > benefit of inside knowledge. Note the "cannot confirm"... > We have information that cyberattacks have been used to disrupt power > equipment in several regions outside the United States. ..."Information" again... remember that it was "information" that gave the world WMD and Iraq. > We do not know who executed these attacks or why, but all involved > intrusions through the Internet. There is one positive, unequivocal statement made in the whole thing: "all involved intrusions through the Internet". In the absence of any other fact, how in the world can that last statement be supported? Of course, anybody who exposes a critical SCADA system to any Internet-connected network, even indirectly, is a brain donor. But scare-mongering like this is designed for the Information Week Google hit-counter. RC David Boxall wrote: > Here we go again. > > > > > " Citing two Government Accountability Office reports on SCADA > security, Paller said that people have been adding wireless and > Windows to SCADA systems without really thinking about security. > "They're gotten radically unsafe," he said." > From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au Mon Jan 21 16:00:56 2008 From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:00:56 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Expert advise sought please... In-Reply-To: <478E8F8C.3030800@lannet.com.au> References: <478E8F8C.3030800@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <20080121231038.126E07511@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com> At 10:13 AM 17/01/2008, Howard Lowndes wrote: >-------- Original Message -------- >Subject: From Alex another NEW Idea to investigate >Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 17:08:02 +0530 > >... I want that every battery of each solar PV system we will >install over the next years ... to be registered ... monitor its >life cycle. ... It might be simpler to just keep a central register, recording whatever identification there is on the batteries when they are installed and using that to identify them when they are replaced. This is on the assumption that the batteries are not going to be changed often and so it is not worth the effort and cost of fitting each one with a barcode, RFID tag or the like. >any other suggestions ... It might be worth looking at using "Low Self Discharge" rechargeable nickel metal hydride (NiMH) cells. These are commonly sold as "pre charged" rechargeable batteries. They cost more, but are claimed to be able to be charged twice the usual 500 times . I have successfully used the AAA size cells in a mobile phone and AAs in a string trimmer . These cells are very robust: I had to stand on the AAA cells to force them into the battery holder. I used the AA cells in place of larger sub-C NiCd cells in the line trimmer. I suspect these batteries will last much longer than regular ones, perhaps five to ten years in a solar lighting system. More recently I have read of larger capacity low discharge C and D cells, but have not tried these and I am not sure they use the same technology . The lower discharge rate batteries might allow the use of smaller batteries and smaller solar panels for home lighting, lowering the cost. The batteries could be combined with efficient LED lights, such as flexible LED tape, to provide light where it is needed and reduce waste. I have looked at using the flexible tape LEDs in a computer classroom . Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington at tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 http://www.tomw.net.au/ Adjunct Senior Lecturer, ANU From rick at praxis.com.au Tue Jan 22 11:49:41 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:49:41 +1100 Subject: [LINK] CIA Admits Cyberattacks Blacked Out Cities In-Reply-To: <47952126.2030509@ozemail.com.au> References: <4794675B.3020701@hunterlink.net.au> <47952126.2030509@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <47953DA5.2080801@praxis.com.au> Richard Chirgwin wrote: > Of course, anybody who exposes a critical SCADA system to any > Internet-connected network, even indirectly, is a brain donor. But > scare-mongering like this is designed for the Information Week Google > hit-counter. Scare-mongering like this is a direct product of the Whitehouse. The Bush Regime must continually maintain a sufficient level of alarm regarding terrorism. Otherwise, the "war" will fall into disrepute, decline and eventually stall. In case you haven't noticed, the "war on terrorism" is 99% PR and 1% action. As a matter of fact, the success rate of Homeland Security and the Patriot Act approaches zero when you consider what the legislation was intended to detect and prevent. Those two acts have been cynically employed by the US administration for purposes having absolutely nothing to do with counter terrorism measures. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Once a new technology starts rolling, if you're not part of the steamroller, you're part of the road. -- Stewart Brand From scott at doc.net.au Tue Jan 22 13:09:51 2008 From: scott at doc.net.au (Scott Howard) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:09:51 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Expert advise sought please... In-Reply-To: <200801211121.59167.dlochrin@d2.net.au> References: <478E8F8C.3030800@lannet.com.au> <4790A24D.7090208@umd.com.au> <200801211121.59167.dlochrin@d2.net.au> Message-ID: On 1/21/08, David Lochrin wrote: > > But there's a more fundamental consideration of good systems > design. Almost all aircraft accidents result from more that one failure > (mechanical, procedural, etc). In similar fashion, it's just too easy for a > database to accumulate errors - for example, the database says that aircraft > 'a' includes engine 'b' which includes fan 'c' when it's actually fan 'z' - > and in an accident investigation one would like to be able to confirm by > direct inspection of an engraved serial number which fan was involved. It > may well be that some mistake like that contributed to the accident. In the nirvana world of RFID, this is exactly the type of problem that RFID (combined with physical serial numbers) can help solve. Imagine if after maintenance had been carried out on an aircraft, and the database updated with the physical serial numbers of the parts, the frame could simply be "scanned" to confirm that records have been updated correctly. This would significantly decrease the possibility of records being incorrectly updated - even (or perhaps, especially) if it was only being used as a cross-check. Of course I'd be fairly sure that RFID technology still isn't at the point where this is possible, but it's getting closer. This is one application where the cost of doing it is probably significantly less than the possible savings. A single hull-loss accident can cost 100's of millions of dollars in equipment alone - without even considering the human life factor - and it wouldn't be the first time an accident occurred due to incorrect maintenance records. Scott From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Tue Jan 22 16:32:54 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:32:54 +1100 Subject: [LINK] speaking of Vista Message-ID: <6hhge8$169l1r@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> >http://www.theonion.com/content/infograph/microsoft_vista_released > >Microsoft Vista Released > >Microsoft released its new operating system, Vista, on Jan. 30. Here >are some of its features: > >Microsoft Word's helpful paper-clip icon now blinks at rate of normal humans > >Enhanced graphics on "System Is Not Responding" pop-up window > >Five new card-back designs for Solitaire > >Something that Apple would never, ever dream up in a billion years > Microsoft Vista Released > >4,391 security flaws to be patched over next 15 years > >Promise of broad, open-minded future or some bullsh*t > >Lists blocked wireless connections with greater speed and accuracy > >New operating system, same old Microsoft Paint Semi-finalist - Amazon Breakout Novelist Award 2008: The Truck - A baby-boomer nostalgia murder mystery http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00121WDVA - Read and rate now! Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Writing Lesson #54: Learn to love revision. Think of it as polishing the silver for guests. - JW, May, 2007 _ __________________ _ From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Tue Jan 22 22:56:25 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 22:56:25 +1100 Subject: [LINK] RFI: Email Download Failure from Local ISP Message-ID: People with low threshholds for stupidity please tune out now. __________________________________________________________________________ Please tell me I'm a dubbo and need to try harder. Or explain what's happened here (and, if you're even cleverer, why I can't quite see it). I think my failure to get email this evening may be my ISP's fault. (Or maybe Telstra's. But that would be just *too* much of a cop-out). If you don't love 'em you lose 'em, so I use a local ISP: http://www.apex.net.au/contact_us.php Office Hours Monday to Friday 9:00am till 7:00pm (Support) Saturday 9:00am till 2:00pm (Support) At 22:00+11 Tue 22 Jan 2008 and up to 23:00ish, fetches of mail from mail.apex.net.au were dropping out - Eudora said 'No response after 120 seconds'. The Squirrelmail/webmail alternative also wasn't working, just hanging, and finally displaying a message I haven't seen before (at the very bottom). A search of the DNS on mail.apex.net.au delivered: 15 - postoffice.telstra.net.au. (203.50.2.186) [Only one MX record?? What kind of fallback arrangements are in place??] [And Apex subcontracts to Telstra for an smtp server??] [I asked about that a few months ago, and wasn't sure that I understood the answer. Maybe I should have listened more closely, or thought deeper?] A traceroute of mail.apex.net.au delivered a connection that appeared to be inconsistent with the above. It ended up at 203.20.62.10. That *also* back-translates as mail.apex.net.au. Apex resolved to 203.20.62.16 Its DNS servers were shown as: ns1.apex.net.au 203.20.62.12 ns2.apex.net.au 203.20.62.13 [I've previously threatened to abandon them because the backup DNS-server is on the same subnet as the primary, in breach of the (advisory only) IETF RFC, i.e. the nearest thing to a standard that exists in Internet contexts] I divert all of my various email-addresses to xamax.com.au, which is delegated to Apex. Xamax's MX entry is: 20 - mail2.apex.net.au. (203.20.62.11) An attempt to fetch mail from mail2.apex.net.au produces: Server not responding. 706; Lost connection to the server. [Am I going mad, or has Apex stuffed up its DNS entries? [Am I a goose for delegating to an ISP who may only know marginally more about what they're doing than I do?] [Declaration: Among a few other things, I teach a Masters seminar in Internet and Web Infrastructure for eCommerce. But then it's only at a University; and it's not as if I'm claiming to be able to actually *do* things that I teach about. 'Those who can, do ...', etc. ] __________________________________________________________________________ The traceroute result, from my TPG ADSL service to mail.apex.net.au: 1 3/3 1.309 1.672 2.396 192.168.123.254 192.168.123.254 2 3/3 11.278 12.181 13.420 202.7.162.164 cbr-pow-ibo-tit-2-loo-20.tpgi.com.au 3 3/3 12.277 13.086 13.811 203.26.16.193 cbr-pow-ibo-tit-1-ge-0-1.tpgi.com.au 4 3/3 18.610 34.013 64.197 202.7.167.130 syd-pow-ibo-zeu-ge-3-2.tpgi.com.au 5 3/3 17.517 18.235 18.837 202.92.102.77 202.92.102.77 6 3/3 18.190 18.687 19.228 203.111.1.65 nsydnbrdr01-ge4011.powertel.net.au 7 3/3 17.687 17.759 17.837 203.111.3.246 nsydnbrdr01-ge4244.powertel.net.au 8 0/3 2147483.647 0.000 0.000 9 0/3 2147483.647 0.000 0.000 10 0/3 2147483.647 0.000 0.000 11 0/3 2147483.647 0.000 0.000 12 3/3 24.408 24.643 24.866 210.8.107.138 gigabitethernet0-1.cor1.can.connect.com.au 13 3/3 23.747 25.276 27.492 61.69.5.5 dtra138127-2.gw.connect.com.au 14 3/3 24.670 25.075 25.437 202.55.144.26 ve1102-1g.erx01.gate.transact.net.au 15 3/3 23.618 29.553 38.974 202.55.146.58 static-146-58.transact.net.au 16 3/3 25.412 26.976 29.446 203.20.62.10 mail.apex.net.au __________________________________________________________________________ The results from http://wq.apnic.net/apnic-bin/whois.pl for 203.50.2.186 inetnum: 203.48.0.0 - 203.51.255.255 netname: TELSTRAINTERNET3-AU descr: Telstra Internet descr: Locked Bag 5744 descr: Canberra descr: ACT 2601 country: AU admin-c: TIAR-AP tech-c: TIAR-AP mnt-by: APNIC-HM mnt-lower: MAINT-AU-TIAR-AP remarks: ----- remarks: All reports regarding SPAM or security breaches remarks: should be addressed to abuse at telstra.net remarks: ------ status: ALLOCATED PORTABLE changed: nobody at aunic.net 19961120 changed: nobody at aunic.net 20000105 changed: aunic-transfer at apnic.net 20010525 changed: addressing at telstra.net 20020115 changed: hm-changed at apnic.net 20030415 changed: hm-changed at apnic.net 20041214 source: APNIC person: Telstra Internet Address Registry address: Telstra Internet address: Locked Bag 5744 address: Canberra address: ACT 2601 country: AU phone: +61 3 9815 5923 e-mail: addressing at telstra.net nic-hdl: TIAR-AP remarks: Telstra Internet Address Registry Role Object mnt-by: MAINT-AU-TIAR-AP changed: nobody at aunic.net 19951128 changed: aunic-transfer at apnic.net 20010523 changed: aunic-transfer at apnic.net 20020115 changed: Kushnil at apnic.net 20020813 changed: hm-changed at apnic.net 20050310 source: APNIC __________________________________________________________________________ The traceroute result, from my TPG ADSL service to 203.50.2.186: 1 3/3 1.307 2.159 3.783 192.168.123.254 192.168.123.254 2 3/3 10.814 12.349 14.099 202.7.162.164 cbr-pow-ibo-tit-2-loo-20.tpgi.com.au 3 3/3 12.381 12.705 12.903 203.26.16.193 cbr-pow-ibo-tit-1-ge-0-1.tpgi.com.au 4 3/3 18.884 21.149 24.414 202.7.167.130 syd-pow-ibo-zeu-ge-3-2.tpgi.com.au 5 3/3 18.071 18.463 19.144 202.92.102.77 202.92.102.77 6 3/3 16.814 18.593 20.645 202.92.64.138 nsydnbrdr01-ge102.powertel.net.au 7 3/3 18.928 19.744 21.083 203.111.3.246 nsydnbrdr01-ge4244.powertel.net.au 8 3/3 18.168 18.369 18.592 203.63.130.249 hay-telstra.gw.connect.com.au 9 3/3 18.308 19.692 21.938 203.50.6.41 bundle-ether4.ken-core4.sydney.telstra.net 10 3/3 18.835 19.376 20.180 203.50.6.13 bundle-pos1.chw-core2.sydney.telstra.net 11 3/3 32.709 33.253 33.672 203.50.80.1 tengigabitethernet0-12-0-2.exi-core1.melbourne.telstra.net ... and then seems to wander off to never-never land. __________________________________________________________________________ The traceroute result, from my TPG ADSL service to 203.20.62.11: 1 3/3 1.252 2.134 3.703 192.168.123.254 192.168.123.254 2 3/3 11.313 11.858 12.615 202.7.162.164 cbr-pow-ibo-tit-2-loo-20.tpgi.com.au 3 3/3 11.732 12.545 13.328 203.26.16.193 cbr-pow-ibo-tit-1-ge-0-1.tpgi.com.au 4 3/3 18.610 19.391 20.394 202.7.167.130 syd-pow-ibo-zeu-ge-3-2.tpgi.com.au 5 3/3 17.115 18.514 20.643 202.92.102.65 202.92.102.65 6 3/3 21.361 22.918 25.608 203.111.1.65 nsydnbrdr01-ge4011.powertel.net.au 7 3/3 22.097 22.941 23.573 203.111.3.242 aapt-pwt-haym45.powertel.net.au 8 0/3 2147483.647 0.000 0.000 9 0/3 2147483.647 0.000 0.000 10 0/3 2147483.647 0.000 0.000 11 3/3 25.171 25.922 26.528 210.8.107.154 gigabitethernet0-2.cor1.can.connect.com.au 12 3/3 29.840 30.576 31.823 61.69.5.5 dtra138127-2.gw.connect.com.au 13 3/3 32.478 34.034 36.837 202.55.144.26 ve1102-1g.erx01.gate.transact.net.au 14 3/3 30.321 36.118 46.765 202.55.146.58 static-146-58.transact.net.au 15 3/3 33.486 39.635 45.516 203.20.62.11 mail2.apex.net.au __________________________________________________________________________ Safari error after trying to get to Apex Squirrelmail: Safari can't open the page "https://www.apex.net.au/squirrelmail/src/redirect.php". The error was: "lost network connection" (NSURLErrorDomain:-1005) Please choose Report Bug to Apple from the Safari menu, note the error number, and describe what you did before you saw this message. __________________________________________________________________________ -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From scott at doc.net.au Tue Jan 22 23:29:35 2008 From: scott at doc.net.au (Scott Howard) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:29:35 +1100 Subject: [LINK] RFI: Email Download Failure from Local ISP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/22/08, Roger Clarke wrote: > > At 22:00+11 Tue 22 Jan 2008 and up to 23:00ish, fetches of mail from > mail.apex.net.au were dropping out - Eudora said 'No response after > 120 seconds'. > > The Squirrelmail/webmail alternative also wasn't working, just > hanging, and finally displaying a message I haven't seen before (at > the very bottom). Sounds like either the POP server is broken, or you're got a massively large mailbox which is taking too long for the server to open. The former is more likely... > A search of the DNS on mail.apex.net.au delivered: > 15 - postoffice.telstra.net.au. (203.50.2.186) [Only one MX record?? What kind of fallback arrangements are in place??] I'm not sure where you're getting this result from. MX records are for domains, so you should be looking at the MX record for apex.net.au, not mail.apex.net.au. This gives : apex.net.au mail exchanger = 15 postoffice.telstra.net.au. apex.net.au mail exchanger = 0 mail.apex.net.au. apex.net.au mail exchanger = 10 mail2.apex.net.au. So their own mail servers are the primaries, and Telstra is a backup (lowest numbers are highest priority, the order they are listed in above isn't relevant) mail.apex.net.au doesn't have any MX records, nor seem to have anything to do with telstra, so I'm not sure where the results you got above came from. [I've previously threatened to abandon them because the backup > DNS-server is on the same subnet as the primary, in breach of the > (advisory only) IETF RFC, i.e. the nearest thing to a standard that > exists in Internet contexts] Given that their entire ISP is probably on that same subnet, it probably doesn't make a lot of difference. There are a hell of a lot of "advisory" RFCs out there - many of which were far more relevant in a 1990's Internet rather than a 2008 Internet (Not to mention that many of them contract either themselves, other advisory RFCs, or in many cases contract the standards track RFCs...) An attempt to fetch mail from mail2.apex.net.au produces: > Server not responding. 706; Lost connection to the server. Not unexpected - you're trying to connect to it using POP or IMAP, when there's nothing to say that this server actually supports either. Having it listed as an MX record means that it's willing to _accept_ mail on port 25, not that it's a valid host for you "fetching" mail from it. That said, mail2.apex.net.au is also refusing connections on port 25, so... $ telnet mail2.apex.net.au 25 Trying 203.20.62.11... telnet: Unable to connect to remote host: Connection refused Scott. From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Tue Jan 22 23:48:56 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:48:56 +1100 Subject: [LINK] RFI: Email Download Failure from Local ISP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6hhge8$16fbac@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> At 11:29 PM 22/01/2008, Scott Howard wrote: >mail2.apex.net.au is also refusing connections on port 25, so... > >$ telnet mail2.apex.net.au 25 >Trying 203.20.62.11... >telnet: Unable to connect to remote host: Connection refused I know nothing much about this stuff, but I've been seeing that some ISPs in the US are shutting out 25 and going to 2525 as an alternative. Could that be it? Jan - who is wondering how Roger is going to get the feedback if he's unable to collect his mail. Are you using webmail, Roger? Semi-finalist - Amazon Breakout Novelist Award 2008: The Truck - A baby-boomer nostalgia murder mystery http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00121WDVA - Read and rate now! Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Writing Lesson #54: Learn to love revision. Think of it as polishing the silver for guests. - JW, May, 2007 _ __________________ _ From scott at doc.net.au Wed Jan 23 00:13:54 2008 From: scott at doc.net.au (Scott Howard) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 00:13:54 +1100 Subject: [LINK] RFI: Email Download Failure from Local ISP In-Reply-To: <6hhge8$16fbac@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> References: <6hhge8$16fbac@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> Message-ID: On 1/22/08, Jan Whitaker wrote: > > I know nothing much about this stuff, but I've been seeing that some > ISPs in the US are shutting out 25 and going to 2525 as an > alternative. Could that be it? Not unless they don't actually want people to be able to send mail to them... In order to receive mail from the internet you _must_ use port 25. Simple as that. No way to change it. What you're probably referring to is the port they are using to allow their own customers to connect to their mail servers to send mail. This can be changed (although it requires your customers to change their config to match), and there are often good reasons for doing it. The more normal ports used for this are 587 or 993 (for SSL), although there's no reason an ISP couldn't use 2525 - it's just non-standard (587 and 993 are RFC'd somewhere). Scott From stephen at melbpc.org.au Wed Jan 23 01:32:09 2008 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen at melbpc.org.au) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 14:32:09 GMT Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista Message-ID: <20080122143209.A11C31771A@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> Ivan writes: > ..'Has access' is a very loose term .. they need to travel to a place > with electricity, and a computer, and one with an internet connection. Agree Ivan .. the percentage of the world's population with acces to the Internet is subjective. I was being generous, others say it's around 20%. , with Windows XP on around +75% of computers. >> to maintain that access, Microsoft (the US) is demanding new hardware. > > Why does this follow? I don't see the connection .. Vista wants 40 gig space and a gig ram. How many of the world's computers would you say will run it now, especially in the third world countries? And with world fuel prices and talk of a global recession, how many third world villages could afford to upgrade hardware when XP support stops in 5 months? > > Instead, many in Asia and elsewhere > > will seek free alternatives, for example, Red Flag Linux (China) > > which is running on 80-95% of all of China's open source machines. > > And if there were only 100 open-source machines in China, that would > amount to almost 95 machines. Sorry, but this appears to be a collection > of sloppy statistics... Ivan have a look beyond numbers to the big picture. For me it's a matter of world social justice, and the digital divide. For shakey third world computers, some virus-ridden, the continuation of XP support for several years at least simply seems a world humanitarian necessity. Do you agree? >From the MS perspective of profits-before-people, I say, not good enough! As well as marketing vertically to us 20% of the world with net access etc why not horizontally, with say, XP RA (Remote Area) at US$20 for a few CDs posted anywhere. An MS XT Beetle/Trabby/Mini for the world and your Vista Caddy for broadband highways. Come on Microsoft! 20% and no less than 20%! Windows XP, if it works, don't break it .. 75% of the world depend on it. > We might well ponder if the computer be made in the east or the west > (it doesn't matter to me: I'm typing on a machine made in Shanghai), > but it is inevitable that computers will be designed in places that > stimulate the most innovation and creative thought, and made in places > that offer the cheapest labour and manufacturing: the two won't > necessarily be the same, and are unlikely to be so. iT Cheers, Ivan Stephen Loosley Victoria, Australia From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Wed Jan 23 07:34:11 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:34:11 +1100 Subject: [LINK] RFI: Email Download Failure from Local ISP In-Reply-To: References: <6hhge8$16fbac@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> Message-ID: <6hhge8$16kcms@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> At 12:13 AM 23/01/2008, Scott Howard wrote: >Not unless they don't actually want people to be able to send mail to them... > >In order to receive mail from the internet you _must_ use port 25. >Simple as that. No way to change it. Here's where I picked that up from a discussion about why someone couldn't retrieve their mail: -------- According to , the SMTP server name for infomagic.net is: SMTP.infomagic.net infomagic.net may require authentication and a change of SMTP port to 2525 instead of simply 25. To do that, infomagic.net Persona in Eudora.ini file needs to be edited by adding: SMTPPort=2525. (I found this on a Website related to infomagic.net.) --------- Like I said, I don't know which is which. Jan Semi-finalist - Amazon Breakout Novelist Award 2008: The Truck - A baby-boomer nostalgia murder mystery http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00121WDVA - Read and rate now! Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Writing Lesson #54: Learn to love revision. Think of it as polishing the silver for guests. - JW, May, 2007 _ __________________ _ From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Wed Jan 23 07:53:12 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:53:12 +1100 Subject: [LINK] SMH: 'Jail threat against internet cafe owners' Message-ID: [Can anyone confirm or deny this claim: "A federal police spokesman said internet cafe operators ... had a duty of care to prevent illegal activity on their premises."] Jail threat against internet cafe owners The Sydney Morning Herald Date: January 23 2008 Arjun Ramachandran http://www.smh.com.au/text/articles/2008/01/22/1200764264492.html MOST people use Tony Chen's Bondi Junction internet cafe to email friends or browse the internet. But if any of the backpackers or local residents frequenting his cafe, The Mouse Pad, were to illegally download music, Mr Chen - as the cafe's owner - could face up to five years in jail or fines of up to $60,500. That was the stern warning yesterday from Music Industry Piracy Investigations, the Australian music industry's anti-piracy arm. The organisation has released a guide for internet cafes, warning operators of their obligations in stopping music piracy. Mr Chen's cafe operates on the principle of honesty. "I don't really know what [the patrons] do. We haven't really got any rules." But Sabiene Heindl, the general manager of the investigating agency, said there were increasing numbers of complaints about copyrighted content being housed in internet cafes. "The suggestion is that a number of cafes are actively encouraging people to save music on their servers, then [that content] is almost offered as a value-add for the fee paid," she said. Last month Australian Federal Police raided a city centre internet cafe that allegedly offered customers large volumes of pirated content, in what Ms Heindl said was the first criminal action against an internet cafe for copyright breaches. The agency has said it will also consider civil action against internet cafes simply unaware their customers are downloading content illegally. "It's not OK to turn a blind eye to these things," Ms Heindl said. The proposition shocked Mr Chen, who said he had not been made aware of his obligations or how to control the computers. A federal police spokesman said internet cafe operators would not necessarily be held liable for customers' actions, but had a duty of care to prevent illegal activity on their premises. -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From rick at praxis.com.au Wed Jan 23 08:58:51 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:58:51 +1100 Subject: [LINK] SMH: 'Jail threat against internet cafe owners' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4796671B.4040604@praxis.com.au> Roger Clarke wrote: > [Can anyone confirm or deny this claim: > "A federal police spokesman said internet cafe operators ... had a duty > of care to prevent illegal activity on their premises."] Wouldn't that be up to the legal profession, and specifically the courts to decide? Separation of powers, etc. > Jail threat against internet cafe owners > The Sydney Morning Herald > Date: January 23 2008 > Arjun Ramachandran > http://www.smh.com.au/text/articles/2008/01/22/1200764264492.html [SNIP] > But Sabiene Heindl, the general manager of the investigating agency, > said there were increasing numbers of complaints about copyrighted > content being housed in internet cafes. The above is one thing ... > "The suggestion is that a number of cafes are actively encouraging > people to save music on their servers, then [that content] is almost > offered as a value-add for the fee paid," she said. and this is another. It is not reasonable to expect a cafe operator to monitor the online activities of its clients. If the owners encourage the downloads and the allow redistribution of same, they are fair game for the law. There is an easy technological solution to prevent the sharing and distribution of copyright materials in the cafe. After a customer logs off, clear the data area of the hard drive. The cafe owner is then showing that she is actively discouraging sharing of these materials amongst customers. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Your food stamps will be stopped effective March 1992 because we received notice that you passed away. May God bless you. You may reapply if there is a change in your circumstances. -- Department of Social Services, Greenville, South Carolina From cas at taz.net.au Wed Jan 23 09:16:12 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:16:12 +1100 Subject: [LINK] RFI: Email Download Failure from Local ISP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080122221612.GR6828@taz.net.au> On Tue, Jan 22, 2008 at 11:29:35PM +1100, Scott Howard wrote: > On 1/22/08, Roger Clarke wrote: > > > > At 22:00+11 Tue 22 Jan 2008 and up to 23:00ish, fetches of mail from > > mail.apex.net.au were dropping out - Eudora said 'No response after > > 120 seconds'. > > > > The Squirrelmail/webmail alternative also wasn't working, just > > hanging, and finally displaying a message I haven't seen before (at > > the very bottom). > > Sounds like either the POP server is broken, or you're got a massively > large mailbox which is taking too long for the server to open. The > former is more likely... yeah, that would be my guess too. apex's mail server is/was likely down. such things happen from time to time, even for giant ISPs that can afford to throw lots of money, staff, and hardware at mail server infrastructure. > So their own mail servers are the primaries, and Telstra is a backup > (lowest numbers are highest priority, the order they are listed in > above isn't relevant) something like this was recommended practice 15+ years ago, but it's considered bad practice these days to use a backup MX that you do not control, and that does not have the same anti-spam/anti-virus setup as you do. spammers & viruses target backup MX servers(*), and have done for years. there are two immediate consequences of this: 1. it can be a way to bypass some of your anti-spam/anti-virus rules (especially those that check the sending client's IP address) or even all of them if you configure your mail server to blindly trust your backup MX....and if you're misguided enough to use a backup MX you don't control, it's quite possible that you're misguided enough to do that. this is, of course, the reason why malware deliberately targets backup MX servers. 2. backscatter. it's uncommon for backup MX servers that you don't control to know which email addresses are valid for your domain, so they typically accept all mail addressed to any user @yourdomain. when the backup MX tries to deliver mail for bogusaddress at yourdomain, your mail server will reject it and say "no such user", and the backup then has to bounce the message. leading to what is known as "backscatter", or bouncing mail to forged sender addresses. note that there is a huge difference between rejecting a message (as your mail server can do because it knows what the valid addresses are), and bouncing a message (which involves first accepting a message and then sending it back to the alleged sender). most spamware/viruses will just drop the message if it it rejected, because there's no need to program in bounce-handling code or waste bandwidth delivering a bounce rather than another spam, so a rejection won't result in backscatter like a bounce will (unless there is some real mail server as an intermediary, such as a backup MX that you don't control). (*) that's why i have a dummy secondary MX record for my domain, and my firewall drops all SMTP packets except to/from my mail server. it doesn't actually achieve much but waste the time of spamware trying to connect to it, hopefully slowing it down. and doing it did show that some spamware targets backup MXs exclusively - the amount of rejected spam in my mail logs went down noticably after i set that up a few years ago. BTW, apex's secondary MX setup won't affect mail sent to your domain. your domain's MX records list only apex's mail servers. $ host -t mx xamax.com.au xamax.com.au MX 0 mail.apex.net.au xamax.com.au MX 20 mail2.apex.net.au > > DNS-server is on the same subnet as the primary, in breach of the > > (advisory only) IETF RFC, i.e. the nearest thing to a standard that > > exists in Internet contexts] > > Given that their entire ISP is probably on that same subnet, it > probably doesn't make a lot of difference. There are a hell of a lot > of "advisory" RFCs out there - many of which were far more relevant > in a 1990's Internet rather than a 2008 Internet (Not to mention that > many of them contract either themselves, other advisory RFCs, or in > many cases contract the standards track RFCs...) yep. i wouldn't consider it reason enough by itself to leave an ISP, but it is a bad sign. apex should find another similarly sized ISP (perhaps via the aussie-isp list that i run) and make a deal to provide secondary NS facilities for each other. the catch is that you've got to pick one that is unlikely to go bust because it can be a major PITA to have to suddenly redelegate your domain(s) because one of your nameservers has vanished off the net. or just pay for a secondary NS, there are services around that do it for a fee, and it's dirt cheap to pay for a virtual host on a server in a well-connected spot in the US - bandwidth requirements would be minimal for just serving DNS requests. actually such a machine could act as a backup MX too. craig -- craig sanders Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich. -- Napoleon From Vanessa.TUCKFIELD at Dest.gov.au Wed Jan 23 09:19:59 2008 From: Vanessa.TUCKFIELD at Dest.gov.au (Vanessa.TUCKFIELD at Dest.gov.au) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:19:59 +1100 Subject: [LINK] SMH: 'Jail threat against internet cafe owners' [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <42AE08054734A940AE4F983C21324D0403ECA00F@acexp005.portfolio.base> > On Behalf Of Roger Clarke >Sent: Wednesday, 23 January 2008 7:53 >To: link at anu.edu.au >Subject: [LINK] SMH: 'Jail threat against internet cafe owners' >[Can anyone confirm or deny this claim: >"A federal police spokesman said internet cafe operators ... had a duty >of care to prevent illegal activity on their premises."] Wouldn't they be under a similar duty of care to libraries to have "reasonably inform patron/users/customers of their copyright responsibilities when downloading material off the internet" When you go into libraries they usually have signs around all the copying equipment and probably in their computer areas http://copyrightkitchen.flexiblelearning.net.au/main.php?m=view&id=65 provides a link to an explanation for training organisations on the subject. IMHO Internet caf?'s get paid more for time spent on their computers than libraries do, and this looks like an area ripe for watching. Vanessa Tuckfield Copyright Advisor Education Innovation & Infrastructure Policy Department of Education, Employment & Workplace Relations P: 02 6229 4047 E: vanessa.tuckfield at dest.gov.au Classification: UNCLASSIFIED From darrell.burkey at anu.edu.au Wed Jan 23 09:28:15 2008 From: darrell.burkey at anu.edu.au (Darrell Burkey) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:28:15 +1100 Subject: [LINK] RFI: Email Download Failure from Local ISP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1201040895.817.17.camel@bippo> On Tue, 2008-01-22 at 22:56, Roger Clarke wrote: > If you don't love 'em you lose 'em, so I use a local ISP: > http://www.apex.net.au/contact_us.php I don't understand this. Are you saying that non-local ISPs don't love you so therefore you use local ISPs? Then you go on to mention a few dubious technical configurations of said local ISP and appear to be complaining that things aren't working. So, let me just see if I have this right. A small local ISP that appears to not be delivering the service you want is your choice because you feel loved by them but a national well respected and resourced ISP isn't your choice because you don't feel the love from them? Sorry Roger, but I don't think the problem here is the ISP. :-) TPG and Apex, interesting choice. If you want to contact me off list I'll send you a one word solution to your issues with a personal promise that you will never look back. I'll back that with free coffee for a week if I'm wrong. I won't say it here as I'm not interested in fuelling religious wars and personally I think the very concept of ISPs is a primitive and outdated way of delivering a critical service that we all rely on. Nonetheless, we have to live with them and there is one shining light out there. I am also surprised that anyone would consider an interruption of services on the 'net as unusual. Poo happens (technical term) even to the best of providers. Cheers. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Darrell Burkey UNIX Systems Administrator College of Asia & the Pacific Australian National University Ph: (02) 6125 4160 From ivan at itrundle.com Wed Jan 23 09:31:45 2008 From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:31:45 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <20080122143209.A11C31771A@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> References: <20080122143209.A11C31771A@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <6C23BCD5-0EE8-48BC-80E4-D5084F7D2272@itrundle.com> On 23/01/2008, at 1:32 AM, stephen at melbpc.org.au wrote: > Ivan writes: > >> ..'Has access' is a very loose term .. they need to travel to a place >> with electricity, and a computer, and one with an internet >> connection. > > Agree Ivan .. the percentage of the world's population with acces to > the > Internet is subjective. I was being generous, others say it's around > 20%. > , with Windows XP on > around > +75% of computers. > To be honest, I cannot see how the number of people with access to the internet can be determined. Even if one were to count the number of computers sold (and subtract a percentage which is known to be landfill, or no longer operational) and divde by the number of people, I'm sure the statistics would look different again - and that's not considering the multitudes of computers that are NOT connected to the internet. What other metrics are available? IP addresses don't mean much - since many are hoarded and unused, with NAT and DHCP confusing the issue. E-mail addresses don't count for much either. >>> to maintain that access, Microsoft (the US) is demanding new >>> hardware. >> >> Why does this follow? I don't see the connection .. > > Vista wants 40 gig space and a gig ram. How many of the world's > computers > would you say will run it now, especially in the third world > countries? Who knows? But Vista has less than 4% penetration, according to statistics that I read yesterday (i.e. less than Mac OS). There are alternatives, even from the Windows camp: XP will continue for a long time to come, even if it is neither sold nor supported in the West. > And > with world fuel prices and talk of a global recession, how many > third world > villages could afford to upgrade hardware when XP support stops in 5 > months? I don't believe that this will be an impediment of any significance. Granted, there will come a time when alternatives will be sought: and they might not include Vista. A new industry of support for older hardware (and software) will exist for as long as there is an imperative to continue with the equipment, and until 'older' harder discarded by richer nations is devalued to the point of being affordable by all. This economic model persists. >>> Instead, many in Asia and elsewhere >>> will seek free alternatives, for example, Red Flag Linux (China) >>> which is running on 80-95% of all of China's open source machines. >> >> And if there were only 100 open-source machines in China, that would >> amount to almost 95 machines. Sorry, but this appears to be a >> collection >> of sloppy statistics... > > Ivan have a look beyond numbers to the big picture. For me it's a > matter > of world social justice, and the digital divide. For shakey third > world > computers, some virus-ridden, the continuation of XP support for > several > years at least simply seems a world humanitarian necessity. Do you > agree? Absolutely. The point I was making though is that we simply don't know the numbers of what is running on China's machines, open-source or otherwise. On the other hand, virus-ridden computers is an opportunity for some, and a challenge for others. Maybe a new industry in making better, cheaper, simpler software. Already China is embarking on an operating system that it can call its own. Equity, on the other hand, is a complex issue... The digital divide will persist, and whilst many of us place this at a high priority, the divide is sharper and more challenging at the social, economic, and political levels - not to say that technology is in the mix, but rather that the digital divide is narrowed only when the other 'divides' are tackled first. >> From the MS perspective of profits-before-people, I say, not good >> enough! And the irony is that America's richest man is now doing all he can to reverse this, though his altruism does not extend to offering MS technology for free to needy nations. The capitalist model that we embrace doesn't seem to allow for this. > As well as marketing vertically to us 20% of the world with net > access etc > why not horizontally, with say, XP RA (Remote Area) at US$20 for a > few CDs > posted anywhere. An MS XT Beetle/Trabby/Mini for the world and your > Vista > Caddy for broadband highways. Come on Microsoft! 20% and no less > than 20%! > > Windows XP, if it works, don't break it .. 75% of the world depend > on it. 'Depend' is unfortunate, but true. >> We might well ponder if the computer be made in the east or the west >> (it doesn't matter to me: I'm typing on a machine made in Shanghai), >> but it is inevitable that computers will be designed in places that >> stimulate the most innovation and creative thought, and made in >> places >> that offer the cheapest labour and manufacturing: the two won't >> necessarily be the same, and are unlikely to be so. iT > Warmly Ivan -- Ivan Trundle http://itrundle.com ivan at itrundle.com ph: +61 (0)418 244 259 fx: +61 (0)2 6286 8742 skype: callto://ivanovitchk From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au Wed Jan 23 09:01:46 2008 From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:01:46 +1100 Subject: [LINK] How to write a business case for e-learning Message-ID: <20080122233713.1B855157E6@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com> The Australian Flexible Learning Framework, are sponsoring free workshops on "How to write a business case for e-learning" in February and March 2008 . The workshops are intended for businesses interested in developing in house e-learning. This is part of a $15 million federal and state Australian government e-learning strategy. The title of the workshop reminds me of the comedy "How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying" . In it, there was there was a company called "World Wide Wicket" and the name is remarkably close to "World Wide Web". ;-) --- 1. Professional development workshop (1? hours) * learn about the basics of a business case * hear from and ask questions of a previous successful Framework funded industry or RTO champion regarding their business case and its implementation * explore the resources available on the E-learning for Industry website that will assist you in writing a business case, eg the Practical guide to e-learning for industry * write a business case using a workshop template * access the free online learning resource ?How to write a business case for e-learning?. 2. Optional information session (funding opportunities through the 2008 Innovation Program of the Australian Flexible Learning Framework) * national funding for an Industry Integration of E-learning project * state/territory funding for an E-learning Innovations project (advice provided at most state/territory workshops). --- From: E-learning for Industry, Commonwealth of Australia, 2008 Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington at tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 http://www.tomw.net.au/ Adjunct Senior Lecturer, ANU From cas at taz.net.au Wed Jan 23 10:55:45 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:55:45 +1100 Subject: [LINK] RFI: Email Download Failure from Local ISP In-Reply-To: <1201040895.817.17.camel@bippo> References: <1201040895.817.17.camel@bippo> Message-ID: <20080122235545.GS6828@taz.net.au> On Wed, Jan 23, 2008 at 09:28:15AM +1100, Darrell Burkey wrote: > > On Tue, 2008-01-22 at 22:56, Roger Clarke wrote: > > > If you don't love 'em you lose 'em, so I use a local ISP: > > http://www.apex.net.au/contact_us.php > > I don't understand this. Are you saying that non-local ISPs don't love > you so therefore you use local ISPs? > > [...] A small local ISP that appears to not be delivering the service > you want is your choice because you feel loved by them but a national > well respected and resourced ISP isn't your choice because you don't > feel the love from them? what he's saying is that if nobody uses small, independant, local ISPs that they will vanish from the market leaving only giant national and multinational would-be monopolists. > I won't say it here as I'm not interested in fuelling religious > wars and personally I think the very concept of ISPs is a primitive > and outdated way of delivering a critical service that we all rely > on. Nonetheless, we have to live with them and there is one shining > light out there. so who is this amazing ISP with the halo? btw, even if some miracle occurred and everyone was capable of running all their own services (mail, dns, web, etc etc) AND had the time to do so AND were willing to do so, somebody would still have to provide the ADSL or whatever connections, the bandwidth, the routing, and so on. that's an ISP. or a telco acting as an ISP (the distinction is vanishing, anyway). geeks like me don't need or want anything but raw bandwidth and routing from an "ISP". most people aren't geeks, they do need and want a lot more than that. craig -- craig sanders It seems appropriate to me that Mapplethorpe's perverse images should be situated so close to Congress, which perpetuates a number of unnatural acts upon the body politic every day, without benefit of artificial lubrication or foreplay. -- Pat Calafia's review of Camille Paglia's "Sex, Art and American Culture" From brendansweb at optusnet.com.au Wed Jan 23 21:27:39 2008 From: brendansweb at optusnet.com.au (Brendan Scott) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:27:39 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Analysis: Metcalfe's Law + Real ID = more crime, less safety Message-ID: <4797169B.9010907@optusnet.com.au> http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080119-analysis-metcalfes-law-real-id-more-crime-less-safety.html "Here's an ugly prediction that you can take to the bank: as the amount of data that the feds collect on innocent civilians grows, so will the number of people who are victims of crimes that were made possible by unauthorized access to a government database." From stephen at melbpc.org.au Thu Jan 24 01:13:03 2008 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen at melbpc.org.au) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:13:03 GMT Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista Message-ID: <20080123141303.6341917643@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> Hi Ivan and all, Instead of simply stopping support for most of the world's computers, and whilst building the gig-generation, Microsoft might consider giving the XP OS and associated academic products away cheaply for the world, like they do for America and us http://www.microsoft.com/Education/Eligible.mspx but cheaper, for their world XP jeep, while the Vista hummer cruises on ahead. Ivan very sensibly writes: >> ..'Has access' is a very loose term .. they need to travel to >> a place with electricity, and a computer, and one with an internet >> connection. > > Agree Ivan .. the percentage of the world's population with acces to > the Internet is subjective. I was being generous, others say it's > around 20%. , with Windows > XP on around +75% of computers. > >> to maintain that access, Microsoft (the US) is demanding new >>> hardware. >> >> Why does this follow? I don't see the connection .. > > Vista wants 40 gig space and a gig ram. How many of the world's > computers > would you say will run it now, especially in the third world > countries? Who knows? But Vista has less than 4% penetration, according to statistics that I read yesterday (i.e. less than Mac OS). There are alternatives, even from the Windows camp: XP will continue for a long time to come, even if it is neither sold nor supported in the West. > And > with world fuel prices and talk of a global recession, how many > third world > villages could afford to upgrade hardware when XP support stops in 5 > months? I don't believe that this will be an impediment of any significance. Granted, there will come a time when alternatives will be sought: and they might not include Vista. A new industry of support for older hardware (and software) will exist for as long as there is an imperative to continue with the equipment, and until 'older' harder discarded by richer nations is devalued to the point of being affordable by all. This economic model persists. >>> Instead, many in Asia and elsewhere >>> will seek free alternatives, for example, Red Flag Linux (China) >>> which is running on 80-95% of all of China's open source machines. >> >> And if there were only 100 open-source machines in China, that would >> amount to almost 95 machines. Sorry, but this appears to be a >> collection >> of sloppy statistics... > > Ivan have a look beyond numbers to the big picture. For me it's a > matter > of world social justice, and the digital divide. For shakey third > world > computers, some virus-ridden, the continuation of XP support for > several > years at least simply seems a world humanitarian necessity. Do you > agree? Absolutely. The point I was making though is that we simply don't know the numbers of what is running on China's machines, open-source or otherwise. On the other hand, virus-ridden computers is an opportunity for some, and a challenge for others. Maybe a new industry in making better, cheaper, simpler software. Already China is embarking on an operating system that it can call its own. Equity, on the other hand, is a complex issue... The digital divide will persist, and whilst many of us place this at a high priority, the divide is sharper and more challenging at the social, economic, and political levels - not to say that technology is in the mix, but rather that the digital divide is narrowed only when the other 'divides' are tackled first. >> From the MS perspective of profits-before-people, I say, not good >> enough! And the irony is that America's richest man is now doing all he can to reverse this, though his altruism does not extend to offering MS technology for free to needy nations. The capitalist model that we embrace doesn't seem to allow for this. > As well as marketing vertically to us 20% of the world with net > access etc > why not horizontally, with say, XP RA (Remote Area) at US$20 for a > few CDs > posted anywhere. An MS XT Beetle/Trabby/Mini for the world and your > Vista > Caddy for broadband highways. Come on Microsoft! 20% and no less > than 20%! > > Windows XP, if it works, don't break it .. 75% of the world depend > on it. 'Depend' is unfortunate, but true. >> We might well ponder if the computer be made in the east or the west >> (it doesn't matter to me: I'm typing on a machine made in Shanghai), >> but it is inevitable that computers will be designed in places that >> stimulate the most innovation and creative thought, and made in >> places >> that offer the cheapest labour and manufacturing: the two won't >> necessarily be the same, and are unlikely to be so. iT > Warmly Ivan -- Ivan Trundle http://itrundle.com ivan at itrundle.com ph: +61 (0)418 244 259 fx: +61 (0)2 6286 8742 skype: callto://ivanovitchk -- Warm respect also, Ivan Stephen From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au Thu Jan 24 08:17:23 2008 From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 08:17:23 +1100 Subject: [LINK] IT Journal Goes Paperlast Message-ID: <20080123223246.B667D2484C@heartbeat2.messagingengine.com> Linkers might be interested to know that the Journal of Research and Practice in Information Technology (JRPIT) , produced by the ACS is going "green". After thirty five years of distributing it on paper, the journal was put on the web and made open access so anyone could read it for free. A few years later we provided subscribers with the ability to opt out of the print edition, if they were happy with the online version. Now a few years later we are changing the default so that they can opt in, if the want the print version. This is being done to save paper, as well as printing and distribution costs. I expect that out of the 13,000 subscribers, only about 200 will opt for the printed edition. ps: The change to online publishing has been uncontroversial. The fact that it is not on paper does not effect the academic status of the publication, with the reputation of the editors and reviewers being unchanged. Also I suspect that retaining a print-like format makes the online journal more academically acceptable, even though this makes it harder to read online. More thoughts at . Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington at tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 http://www.tomw.net.au/ Adjunct Senior Lecturer, ANU From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au Thu Jan 24 09:00:27 2008 From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:00:27 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Computer Energy Standard Workshop, 8 February, Sydney Message-ID: <20080123223400.0DF0E2484C@heartbeat2.messagingengine.com> The Australian Greenhouse Office (AGO) is holding a free Labeling Workshop for Computers and Monitors, 8 February 2008 in Sydney. The Australian state and federal governments, along with New Zealand, are considering making the US energy star standards mandatory for computer and monitors sold from October 2009. There is a Fact Sheet and Technical Report available on the proposal. The new Minimum Energy Performance Standard is intended to apply to corporate, private and government computer purchases, with non-complying products being prohibited. Energy rating labels similar to those on consumer appliances would be attached to computers. Australian federal government agencies are already supposed to purchase "Energy Star" standard computers (as are US Government Agencies) under a 1997 policy on Measures for Improving Energy Efficiency in Commonwealth Operations . However, the policy was not actively promoted in Australia. The workshop will cover the reasons for energy efficiency standards and labeling, why this should apply to ICT equipment, if the scheme should be voluntary or compulsory, how it could be implemented. A similar workshop was held in 20 December 2007 on energy labelling for televisions . I will be providing the lunch time talk at the workshop and proposing that a new category of "thin client" desk top computers of 25 Watts or less be added to the standard. Units such as the Zonbu , consume less than 20 Watts, which is far less than the smallest 50 W category in the ENERGY STAR computer specifications V4.0. Use of such devices should be encouraged, as a way to reduce energy use. The workshop is free and anyone involved in ICT is welcome. RSVP: Dana Domazet, Equipment Energy Efficiency (E3) Team, DEWHA, Email: dana.domazet at environment.gov.au Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington at tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 http://www.tomw.net.au/ Adjunct Senior Lecturer, ANU From wavey_one at yahoo.com Thu Jan 24 13:23:13 2008 From: wavey_one at yahoo.com (David Goldstein) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:23:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista Message-ID: <491433.90720.qm@web50511.mail.re2.yahoo.com> A lot of this talk of whether a person living in the third world can use Vista misses a very vital point. It is extremely unlikely there will is the infrastructure to even run a computer let alone have internet access. And whenever the time comes (does anyone want to have a guess at which decade this may be?) that there is some sort of infrastructure to run a PC/Mac, the cost of memory will probably be so cheap that the cost of the memory required will be superfluous. And by this time Vista will be a distant memory to most of us in the first world. You can hurl brickbats at Vista all you like, but lets face it, it's more stable and more secure than any previous Microsoft operating system, and does a better job. I've been using Vista for almost one year now on my PC and not one problem, almost no crashes, that's if there were any (I can't recall one) and it's generally an easier system to use. My main problem is getting my head around Office 2007, which people familiar with Macs says is similar in layout to office software on a Mac. And this is because I just don't use Office anywhere near as much as I use to. On security and stability, Dark Reading has this based on a Microsoft report: "Microsoft's Windows Vista operating system brought home its first-year security report card today: Vista logged less than half the vulnerabilities that Windows XP did in its first year, according to the Microsoft report." ... "So what does the Vista report card really mean? 'It proves that it [Vista] is quantitatively more secure, but not that it's quantitatively less risky -- what I call security versus safety,' Mogull says. 'IT managers need to know the overall risk assessment, which includes that data as well as other information sources.' "Vista underwent more quality assurance and security testing than any other OS, Mogull says, and it paid off. 'The Trustworthy Computing Initiative has resulted in material improvements in the operating system, and other OS vendors should adopt similar practices.'" http://www.darkreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=143979 Then there's Jack Schofield, the best technology tips person I've encountered for the lay person, who in his Ask Jack column in The Guardian said in response to a recent reader question concluded: "There has been something of a backlash against Vista, but this has also been true of most new Microsoft operating systems. I'd still recommend Vista rather than XP, especially if you're taking a five-year view. Vista is more secure, more reliable and more capable than XP, comes with better applications (including ubiquitous search), and has a better user interface. The kernel is based on the hugely successful Windows Server 2003 code, and with SP1 will be much the same as Windows Server 2008. It will be a few years before Vista is more common than XP, but it is not going away." http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/askjack/2007/12/windows_pc_shopping_revisited.html So whatever anyone says, Vista works extremely well. Cheers David ----- Original Message ---- From: "stephen at melbpc.org.au" To: link at anu.edu.au; ivan at itrundle.com Sent: Wednesday, 23 January, 2008 1:32:09 AM Subject: Re: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista Ivan writes: > ..'Has access' is a very loose term .. they need to travel to a place > with electricity, and a computer, and one with an internet connection. Agree Ivan .. the percentage of the world's population with acces to the Internet is subjective. I was being generous, others say it's around 20%. , with Windows XP on around +75% of computers. >> to maintain that access, Microsoft (the US) is demanding new hardware. > > Why does this follow? I don't see the connection .. Vista wants 40 gig space and a gig ram. How many of the world's computers would you say will run it now, especially in the third world countries? And with world fuel prices and talk of a global recession, how many third world villages could afford to upgrade hardware when XP support stops in 5 months? > > Instead, many in Asia and elsewhere > > will seek free alternatives, for example, Red Flag Linux (China) > > which is running on 80-95% of all of China's open source machines. > > And if there were only 100 open-source machines in China, that would > amount to almost 95 machines. Sorry, but this appears to be a collection > of sloppy statistics... Ivan have a look beyond numbers to the big picture. For me it's a matter of world social justice, and the digital divide. For shakey third world computers, some virus-ridden, the continuation of XP support for several years at least simply seems a world humanitarian necessity. Do you agree? >From the MS perspective of profits-before-people, I say, not good enough! As well as marketing vertically to us 20% of the world with net access etc why not horizontally, with say, XP RA (Remote Area) at US$20 for a few CDs posted anywhere. An MS XT Beetle/Trabby/Mini for the world and your Vista Caddy for broadband highways. Come on Microsoft! 20% and no less than 20%! Windows XP, if it works, don't break it .. 75% of the world depend on it. > We might well ponder if the computer be made in the east or the west > (it doesn't matter to me: I'm typing on a machine made in Shanghai), > but it is inevitable that computers will be designed in places that > stimulate the most innovation and creative thought, and made in places > that offer the cheapest labour and manufacturing: the two won't > necessarily be the same, and are unlikely to be so. iT Cheers, Ivan Stephen Loosley Victoria, Australia _______________________________________________ Link mailing list Link at mailman.anu.edu.au http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link Make the switch to the world's best email. Get the new Yahoo!7 Mail now. www.yahoo7.com.au/worldsbestemail From swilson at lockstep.com.au Thu Jan 24 13:51:37 2008 From: swilson at lockstep.com.au (Stephen Wilson) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:51:37 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <491433.90720.qm@web50511.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <491433.90720.qm@web50511.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4797FD39.4010504@lockstep.com.au> David Goldstein wrote: > A lot of this talk of whether a person living in the third world can > use Vista misses a very vital point. It is extremely unlikely there > will is the infrastructure to even run a computer let alone have > internet access. This seems a rather pessimistic view of the "third world". They have telecommmunications. The Commission for Africa in 2004 reported that the "number of mobile subscribers has already grown to over 50 million, representing over 7% of the population. The number of subscribers is currently expanding at around 35% a year, and is forecast to continue over the next few years". The only other infrastructure needed to run a PC would be electrickery, which I don't think is unknown in the "third world". Cheers, Stephen Wilson Managing Director Lockstep Phone +61 (0)414 488 851 www.lockstep.com.au ------------------- * Lockstep Technologies: ICT Secrets of Innovation Finalist 2007 * Lockstep Technologies: Anthill / PwC Cool Company Finalist 2007 ------------------- Lockstep Consulting provides independent specialist advice and analysis on authentication, PKI and smartcards. Lockstep Technologies develops unique new smart ID solutions that safeguard identity and privacy. From stil at stilgherrian.com Thu Jan 24 14:03:17 2008 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 14:03:17 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <4797FD39.4010504@lockstep.com.au> Message-ID: On 24/1/08 1:51 PM, "Stephen Wilson" wrote: > David Goldstein wrote: >> A lot of this talk of whether a person living in the third world can >> use Vista misses a very vital point. It is extremely unlikely there >> will is the infrastructure to even run a computer let alone have >> internet access. > > This seems a rather pessimistic view of the "third world". > > They have telecommmunications... [etc] Surely depends which "they" you mean. I don't think "The Third World" is a homogeneous lump of people all with the same asset base. Then again, neither is The First World or The Second World. Even within Australia, some people have 12Mb/sec data links and grunty mobile computers with mobile Internet (me) and others living nearby have some crappy old Pentium box on a dial-up which crashes all the time (a mate who works for a basic wage). One Size Fits All won't fit anyone, really. Stil -- Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/ Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia mobile +61 407 623 600 fax +61 2 9516 5630 ABN 25 231 641 421 From wavey_one at yahoo.com Thu Jan 24 15:42:14 2008 From: wavey_one at yahoo.com (David Goldstein) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 20:42:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista Message-ID: <359817.6436.qm@web50505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Stephen, You are right there are pockets of Africa with great telecommunications. Parts of South Africa come to mind. But a friend who lives in the capital of Namibia finds it difficult to get more than dial-up. And through mobile internet she gets a very expensive connection to the internet. A huge country of only two million people has more things on its mind than broadband access for all. And an article by Steven Huter and Adiel Akplogan from the University of Oregon Network Startup Resource Center and Regional Registry for Internet Number Resources for Africa in The Guardian recently (see www.guardian.co.uk/media/2007/dec/03/mondaymediasection.internet) outlines a lot of the problems. There are also other stories on my website under Digital Divide and Governance. See http://technewsreview.com.au/ But the main issues are lack of infrastructure, the cost of a personal computer, limited or unavailable national infrastructure (power and fibre) and regulatory and political environments with cumbersome barriers that removed would encourage competition by opening up markets to engage more access providers. The article referred to was broadly supported by contacts in Africa. And yes, mobile communications are booming, but even at a growth rate of 35% per year, it will be decades before they approach the penetration rate of western countries. One thing though, electricity is unknown in many parts of the third world. David ----- Original Message ---- From: Stephen Wilson To: link at anu.edu.au Sent: Thursday, 24 January, 2008 1:51:37 PM Subject: Re: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista David Goldstein wrote: > A lot of this talk of whether a person living in the third world can > use Vista misses a very vital point. It is extremely unlikely there > will is the infrastructure to even run a computer let alone have > internet access. This seems a rather pessimistic view of the "third world". They have telecommmunications. The Commission for Africa in 2004 reported that the "number of mobile subscribers has already grown to over 50 million, representing over 7% of the population. The number of subscribers is currently expanding at around 35% a year, and is forecast to continue over the next few years". The only other infrastructure needed to run a PC would be electrickery, which I don't think is unknown in the "third world". Cheers, Stephen Wilson Managing Director Lockstep Phone +61 (0)414 488 851 www.lockstep.com.au ------------------- * Lockstep Technologies: ICT Secrets of Innovation Finalist 2007 * Lockstep Technologies: Anthill / PwC Cool Company Finalist 2007 ------------------- Lockstep Consulting provides independent specialist advice and analysis on authentication, PKI and smartcards. Lockstep Technologies develops unique new smart ID solutions that safeguard identity and privacy. _______________________________________________ Link mailing list Link at mailman.anu.edu.au http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link Make the switch to the world's best email. Get the new Yahoo!7 Mail now. www.yahoo7.com.au/worldsbestemail From swilson at lockstep.com.au Thu Jan 24 16:11:39 2008 From: swilson at lockstep.com.au (Stephen Wilson) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:11:39 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <359817.6436.qm@web50505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <359817.6436.qm@web50505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47981E0B.8000702@lockstep.com.au> David, I was just trying to moderate the blanket remark that "It is extremely unlikely there will [be] infrastructure [in the third world] to even run a computer let alone have internet access". As it stood, I thought that was a blunt over-generalisation. I think we all need to take care in how we describe "the third world", and avoid slipping into suggestions like: "even at a growth rate of 35% per year, it will be decades before [Africa mobile phones] approach the penetration rate of western countries". Well, no. At 35% p.a., a population of 50 million phones would grow cover all of Africa in 11 years and all of the world in 16 years. That's way short of "decades". Cheers, Stephen Wilson. David Goldstein wrote: > Stephen, > > You are right there are pockets of Africa with great > telecommunications. Parts of South Africa come to mind. But a friend > who lives in the capital of Namibia finds it difficult to get more > than dial-up. And through mobile internet she gets a very expensive > connection to the internet. A huge country of only two million people > has more things on its mind than broadband access for all. > > And an article by Steven Huter and Adiel Akplogan from the University > of Oregon Network Startup Resource Center and Regional Registry for > Internet Number Resources for Africa in The Guardian recently (see > www.guardian.co.uk/media/2007/dec/03/mondaymediasection.internet) > outlines a lot of the problems. There are also other stories on my > website under Digital Divide and Governance. See > http://technewsreview.com.au/ > > But the main issues are lack of infrastructure, the cost of a > personal computer, limited or unavailable national infrastructure > (power and fibre) and regulatory and political environments with > cumbersome barriers that removed would encourage competition by > opening up markets to engage more access providers. > > The article referred to was broadly supported by contacts in Africa. > > And yes, mobile communications are booming, but even at a growth rate > of 35% per year, it will be decades before they approach the > penetration rate of western countries. One thing though, electricity > is unknown in many parts of the third world. > > David > > ----- Original Message ---- From: Stephen Wilson > To: link at anu.edu.au Sent: Thursday, 24 > January, 2008 1:51:37 PM Subject: Re: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus > Vista > > > David Goldstein wrote: >> A lot of this talk of whether a person living in the third world >> can use Vista misses a very vital point. It is extremely unlikely >> there will is the infrastructure to even run a computer let alone >> have internet access. > > This seems a rather pessimistic view of the "third world". > > They have telecommmunications. The Commission for Africa in 2004 > reported that the "number of mobile subscribers has already grown to > over 50 million, representing over 7% of the population. The number > of subscribers is currently expanding at around 35% a year, and is > forecast to continue over the next few years". > > The only other infrastructure needed to run a PC would be > electrickery, > > which I don't think is unknown in the "third world". > > Cheers, > > Stephen Wilson Managing Director Lockstep > > Phone +61 (0)414 488 851 > > www.lockstep.com.au ------------------- * Lockstep Technologies: ICT > Secrets of Innovation Finalist 2007 * Lockstep Technologies: Anthill > / PwC Cool Company Finalist 2007 ------------------- Lockstep > Consulting provides independent specialist advice and analysis on > authentication, PKI and smartcards. Lockstep Technologies develops > unique new smart ID solutions that safeguard identity and privacy. > > _______________________________________________ Link mailing list > Link at mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > > > > > > Make the switch to the world's best email. Get the new Yahoo!7 Mail > now. www.yahoo7.com.au/worldsbestemail > > From rick at praxis.com.au Thu Jan 24 17:06:03 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:06:03 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <47981E0B.8000702@lockstep.com.au> References: <359817.6436.qm@web50505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <47981E0B.8000702@lockstep.com.au> Message-ID: <47982ACB.9000200@praxis.com.au> Stephen Wilson wrote: > Well, no. At 35% p.a., a population of 50 million phones would grow > cover all of Africa in 11 years and all of the world in 16 years. That's > way short of "decades". Is that simple or compound interest? Seriously, I can see what you mean. Pop.growth (and market growth) figures naturally compound each year. "Simple" growth does not apply. Perhaps that is what was meant. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Your food stamps will be stopped effective March 1992 because we received notice that you passed away. May God bless you. You may reapply if there is a change in your circumstances. -- Department of Social Services, Greenville, South Carolina From wavey_one at yahoo.com Thu Jan 24 18:38:54 2008 From: wavey_one at yahoo.com (David Goldstein) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:38:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista Message-ID: <489176.20041.qm@web50506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Stephen, And the point is that infrastructure in Africa is woeful. And it will be decades before most of Africa could possibly hope to have the infrastructure we enjoy in the west now. Mobile internet access *may* give Africa a lot of assistance, but there are still critical infrastructure problems. From undersea cables that connect the continent to electricity and fibre for the infrastructure. OK, at 35% growth per year, no matter how you calculate it, Africa would catch up in the not too distant future. But this growth simply aint sustainable. So I go back to my original point, and to keep you happy about generalisations, that except for pockets where there will be good internet access, the vast majority of Africa will be behind the first world indefinitely. Governments just have too many other concerns to make it a priority is a big issue. But then building the infrastructure is another big issue. Cheers David ----- Original Message ---- From: Stephen Wilson To: link at anu.edu.au Sent: Thursday, 24 January, 2008 4:11:39 PM Subject: Re: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista David, I was just trying to moderate the blanket remark that "It is extremely unlikely there will [be] infrastructure [in the third world] to even run a computer let alone have internet access". As it stood, I thought that was a blunt over-generalisation. I think we all need to take care in how we describe "the third world", and avoid slipping into suggestions like: "even at a growth rate of 35% per year, it will be decades before [Africa mobile phones] approach the penetration rate of western countries". Well, no. At 35% p.a., a population of 50 million phones would grow cover all of Africa in 11 years and all of the world in 16 years. That's way short of "decades". Cheers, Stephen Wilson. David Goldstein wrote: > Stephen, > > You are right there are pockets of Africa with great > telecommunications. Parts of South Africa come to mind. But a friend > who lives in the capital of Namibia finds it difficult to get more > than dial-up. And through mobile internet she gets a very expensive > connection to the internet. A huge country of only two million people > has more things on its mind than broadband access for all. > > And an article by Steven Huter and Adiel Akplogan from the University > of Oregon Network Startup Resource Center and Regional Registry for > Internet Number Resources for Africa in The Guardian recently (see > www.guardian.co.uk/media/2007/dec/03/mondaymediasection.internet) > outlines a lot of the problems. There are also other stories on my > website under Digital Divide and Governance. See > http://technewsreview.com.au/ > > But the main issues are lack of infrastructure, the cost of a > personal computer, limited or unavailable national infrastructure > (power and fibre) and regulatory and political environments with > cumbersome barriers that removed would encourage competition by > opening up markets to engage more access providers. > > The article referred to was broadly supported by contacts in Africa. > > And yes, mobile communications are booming, but even at a growth rate > of 35% per year, it will be decades before they approach the > penetration rate of western countries. One thing though, electricity > is unknown in many parts of the third world. > > David > > ----- Original Message ---- From: Stephen Wilson > To: link at anu.edu.au Sent: Thursday, 24 > January, 2008 1:51:37 PM Subject: Re: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus > Vista > > > David Goldstein wrote: >> A lot of this talk of whether a person living in the third world >> can use Vista misses a very vital point. It is extremely unlikely >> there will is the infrastructure to even run a computer let alone >> have internet access. > > This seems a rather pessimistic view of the "third world". > > They have telecommmunications. The Commission for Africa in 2004 > reported that the "number of mobile subscribers has already grown to > over 50 million, representing over 7% of the population. The number > of subscribers is currently expanding at around 35% a year, and is > forecast to continue over the next few years". > > The only other infrastructure needed to run a PC would be > electrickery, > > which I don't think is unknown in the "third world". > > Cheers, > > Stephen Wilson Managing Director Lockstep > > Phone +61 (0)414 488 851 > > www.lockstep.com.au ------------------- * Lockstep Technologies: ICT > Secrets of Innovation Finalist 2007 * Lockstep Technologies: Anthill > / PwC Cool Company Finalist 2007 ------------------- Lockstep > Consulting provides independent specialist advice and analysis on > authentication, PKI and smartcards. Lockstep Technologies develops > unique new smart ID solutions that safeguard identity and privacy. > > _______________________________________________ Link mailing list > Link at mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > > > > > > Make the switch to the world's best email. Get the new Yahoo!7 Mail > now. www.yahoo7.com.au/worldsbestemail > > _______________________________________________ Link mailing list Link at mailman.anu.edu.au http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link Make the switch to the world's best email. Get the new Yahoo!7 Mail now. www.yahoo7.com.au/worldsbestemail From kim at holburn.net Thu Jan 24 19:25:43 2008 From: kim at holburn.net (Kim Holburn) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 09:25:43 +0100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <491433.90720.qm@web50511.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <491433.90720.qm@web50511.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1C478970-42F2-43E7-B5FD-923BE3C9EA83@holburn.net> On 2008/Jan/24, at 3:23 AM, David Goldstein wrote: > A lot of this talk of whether a person living in the third world > can use Vista misses a very vital point. It is extremely unlikely > there will is the infrastructure to even run a computer let alone > have internet access. > > And whenever the time comes (does anyone want to have a guess at > which decade this may be?) that there is some sort of > infrastructure to run a PC/Mac, the cost of memory will probably be > so cheap that the cost of the memory required will be superfluous. > And by this time Vista will be a distant memory to most of us in > the first world. > > You can hurl brickbats at Vista all you like, but lets face it, > it's more stable and more secure than any previous Microsoft > operating system, This is not saying a lot. > and does a better job. I've been using Vista for almost one year > now on my PC and not one problem, almost no crashes, that's if > there were any (I can't recall one) and it's generally an easier > system to use. What does that mean exactly - how long does it go in between reboots? I can run linux systems for years without reboots, Macs for months, windows systems usually need to be rebooted once a day... > My main problem is getting my head around Office 2007, which people > familiar with Macs says is similar in layout to office software on > a Mac. And this is because I just don't use Office anywhere near as > much as I use to. > > On security and stability, Dark Reading has this based on a > Microsoft report: > "Microsoft's Windows Vista operating system brought home its first- > year security report card today: Vista logged less than half the > vulnerabilities that Windows XP did in its first year, according to > the Microsoft report." Number of vulnerabilities is not a metric for security. What was the uptake rate of Vista compared with XP? Are they counting licenses sold or machines with vista actually installed? When you look at the MS funded studies of vulnerabilities for instance, they count MS vulnerabilities in the base OS, linux vulnerabilities in the whole distribution. Debian has 9000+ packages. Comparing number of successful attacks, or number of actual different pieces of malware that gives quite a different result. Compare that for example, to number of attacks on LAMP servers and you get a considerable difference. > ... > "So what does the Vista report card really mean? 'It proves that it > [Vista] is quantitatively more secure, but not that it's > quantitatively less risky -- what I call security versus safety,' > Mogull says. 'IT managers need to know the overall risk assessment, > which includes that data as well as other information sources.' > > "Vista underwent more quality assurance and security testing than > any other OS, Would that be any other Microsoft OS? I can't imagine it would come close to OpenBSD. > Mogull says, and it paid off. 'The Trustworthy Computing Initiative > has resulted in material improvements in the operating system, You'd have to hope so. > and other OS vendors should adopt similar practices.'" > http://www.darkreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=143979 hmmmm... Kim -- Kim Holburn IT Network & Security Consultant Ph: +39 06 855 4294 M: +39 3494957443 mailto:kim at holburn.net aim://kimholburn skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny. -- Lloyd Biggle, Jr. Analog, Apr 1961 From rick at praxis.com.au Thu Jan 24 19:39:35 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 19:39:35 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <489176.20041.qm@web50506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <489176.20041.qm@web50506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47984EC7.6000509@praxis.com.au> David Goldstein wrote: > OK, at 35% growth per year, no matter how you calculate it, Africa would catch up in the not too distant future. But this growth simply aint sustainable. So I go back to my original point, and to keep you happy about generalisations, that except for pockets where there will be good internet access, the vast majority of Africa will be behind the first world indefinitely. Governments just have too many other concerns to make it a priority is a big issue. But then building the infrastructure is another big issue. Not to mention systemic corruption. Aid dollars do not reach those in need. Development funds are diverted and hoarded, and supplies are often commandeered and resold. Until the unerlying causes of inequity are solved, Africa will have lots of problems. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Your food stamps will be stopped effective March 1992 because we received notice that you passed away. May God bless you. You may reapply if there is a change in your circumstances. -- Department of Social Services, Greenville, South Carolina From rick at praxis.com.au Thu Jan 24 19:46:13 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 19:46:13 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <1C478970-42F2-43E7-B5FD-923BE3C9EA83@holburn.net> References: <491433.90720.qm@web50511.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1C478970-42F2-43E7-B5FD-923BE3C9EA83@holburn.net> Message-ID: <47985055.6080905@praxis.com.au> Kim Holburn wrote: >> and other OS vendors should adopt similar practices.'" >> http://www.darkreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=143979 > > hmmmm... Hmmm indeed. The article discusses "operating systems in their first year". Okay, then compare Linux in its first year to Windows NT in its first year. Windows Vista "in its first year" is not a valid comparison since it is not a new operating system. Rather, its is patchwork mess built upon Wind/NT then Win2K then WinXP. As well, apples and oranges time again. 100 low level vulnerabilities that might expose data or give a single user a service problem (the common type of vulnerability on Linux and Unix systems) is simply not the same as 100 high level vulnerabilities on Windows that allow machines to be taken over as zombies and admin-level access granted. Remind me again, how many Mac or Linux zombies are there out in the wild? cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Your food stamps will be stopped effective March 1992 because we received notice that you passed away. May God bless you. You may reapply if there is a change in your circumstances. -- Department of Social Services, Greenville, South Carolina From jwhit at janwhitaker.com Thu Jan 24 20:32:20 2008 From: jwhit at janwhitaker.com (Jan Whitaker) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:32:20 +1100 Subject: [LINK] for Internet historians - Clinton/Lewinski - 10 years on Message-ID: <6hhge8$17jupu@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> This is funny: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-kelly/10-years-later-my-part-i_b_82910.html Jan Semi-finalist - Amazon Breakout Novelist Award 2008: The Truck - A baby-boomer nostalgia murder mystery http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00121WDVA - Read and rate now! Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Writing Lesson #54: Learn to love revision. Think of it as polishing the silver for guests. - JW, May, 2007 _ __________________ _ From stephen at melbpc.org.au Thu Jan 24 21:00:25 2008 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen at melbpc.org.au) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:00:25 GMT Subject: [LINK] Fwd: Opportunity to Influence Copyright Law Message-ID: <20080124100026.05F63164DD@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> Christian writes, > Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:21:35 +1100 > From: "Christian McCrea" > Subject: [fibreculture] Opportunity to Influence Copyright Law > To: "list at fibreculture.org" For those interested in copyright issues in Australia: "The Government is reviewing the operation of two new copyright exceptions that permit 'format shifting'. These exceptions are sections 47J and 110AA of the Copyright Act 1968n which permit photographs and cinematograph films to be reproduced in a different format for private use, subject to certain conditions." It is more than likely that the record and film industries will be pushing for the smallest possible definition of the clauses, as they are fairly strict at the moment but not quite truly draconian yet. If anybody is interested in forming a working party to draft a response from a loose collective of Australian media academics, this could be a good opportunity to create a counter-measure to corporate interests. By citing the Swedish example, I would for example like to see a copyright law that makes the private copying of film, music, text, photo and data utterly legal no matter the circumstances - including the complete legality of file-sharing - but allow whatever regulatory framework be created on the selling or financial gain of those copies. Even a position as extreme as that can be well articulated and will most certainly be less farcical than the last word we had from the record and film industries, who were attempting to force a levy on a/v cables. I would also like to know if anybody else just feels as strongly about this as I do. I think DRM goes beyond inconvenience and requires our attention now before it takes root. A quote from Cory Doctorow is quite poetic: ========================================================================== For DRM to work, it has to be airtight. There can't be a single mistake. It's like a balloon that pops with the first prick. That means that every single product from every single vendor has to perfectly hide their keys, perfectly implement their code. There can't be a single way to get into the guts of the code to retrieve the cleartext or the keys while it's playing back. All attackers need is a single mistake that they can use to compromise the system. There is no future in which bits will get harder to copy. Instead of spending billions on technologies that attack paying customers, the studios should be confronting that reality and figuring out how to make a living in a world where copying will get easier and easier. They're like blacksmiths meeting to figure out how to protect the horseshoe racket by sabotaging railroads. The railroad is coming. The tracks have been laid right through the studio gates. It's time to get out of the horseshoe business. ========================================================================== Instead of letting the joke play on and on, we could make a public statement about the increasing silliness of the situation, where Australians are being extradited to countries they have never visited for copying data. If anybody has any interest, we could start a discussion here and think about what might need to be said - we have a month. -Christian McCrea Swinburne University of Technology -- Cheers, people Stephen Loosley Victoria, Australia From wavey_one at yahoo.com Thu Jan 24 22:30:24 2008 From: wavey_one at yahoo.com (David Goldstein) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 03:30:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista Message-ID: <815633.64131.qm@web50510.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Well, the only reboots of my computer with Vista are when an update or new programme says I should reboot. In the 8 months I've been using Vista I may have rebooted it because of problems once or twice. But then, that may have just been the easier way out of working out what the issue was. And from recollection of news reports, Vista's uptake has been comparable to say XP. And while you may be able to run Linux systems for years without reboots, let's face it, the average computer user is simply not going to use Linux - it's just way to difficult. At least with Mac and Windows, it's just out of the box, turn it on, and you're away. You may beg to differ, and I've not tried to use Linux, but tech advice says this to be the case. And for the vast majority of people, Windows does the job wonderfully. Doesn't mean it couldn't be better, or even a lot better. But it works fine. David ----- Original Message ---- From: Kim Holburn To: The Link Institute Sent: Thursday, 24 January, 2008 7:25:43 PM Subject: Re: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista On 2008/Jan/24, at 3:23 AM, David Goldstein wrote: > A lot of this talk of whether a person living in the third world > can use Vista misses a very vital point. It is extremely unlikely > there will is the infrastructure to even run a computer let alone > have internet access. > > And whenever the time comes (does anyone want to have a guess at > which decade this may be?) that there is some sort of > infrastructure to run a PC/Mac, the cost of memory will probably be > so cheap that the cost of the memory required will be superfluous. > And by this time Vista will be a distant memory to most of us in > the first world. > > You can hurl brickbats at Vista all you like, but lets face it, > it's more stable and more secure than any previous Microsoft > operating system, This is not saying a lot. > and does a better job. I've been using Vista for almost one year > now on my PC and not one problem, almost no crashes, that's if > there were any (I can't recall one) and it's generally an easier > system to use. What does that mean exactly - how long does it go in between reboots? I can run linux systems for years without reboots, Macs for months, windows systems usually need to be rebooted once a day... > My main problem is getting my head around Office 2007, which people > familiar with Macs says is similar in layout to office software on > a Mac. And this is because I just don't use Office anywhere near as > much as I use to. > > On security and stability, Dark Reading has this based on a > Microsoft report: > "Microsoft's Windows Vista operating system brought home its first- > year security report card today: Vista logged less than half the > vulnerabilities that Windows XP did in its first year, according to > the Microsoft report." Number of vulnerabilities is not a metric for security. What was the uptake rate of Vista compared with XP? Are they counting licenses sold or machines with vista actually installed? When you look at the MS funded studies of vulnerabilities for instance, they count MS vulnerabilities in the base OS, linux vulnerabilities in the whole distribution. Debian has 9000+ packages. Comparing number of successful attacks, or number of actual different pieces of malware that gives quite a different result. Compare that for example, to number of attacks on LAMP servers and you get a considerable difference. > ... > "So what does the Vista report card really mean? 'It proves that it > [Vista] is quantitatively more secure, but not that it's > quantitatively less risky -- what I call security versus safety,' > Mogull says. 'IT managers need to know the overall risk assessment, > which includes that data as well as other information sources.' > > "Vista underwent more quality assurance and security testing than > any other OS, Would that be any other Microsoft OS? I can't imagine it would come close to OpenBSD. > Mogull says, and it paid off. 'The Trustworthy Computing Initiative > has resulted in material improvements in the operating system, You'd have to hope so. > and other OS vendors should adopt similar practices.'" > http://www.darkreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=143979 hmmmm... Kim -- Kim Holburn IT Network & Security Consultant Ph: +39 06 855 4294 M: +39 3494957443 mailto:kim at holburn.net aim://kimholburn skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny. -- Lloyd Biggle, Jr. Analog, Apr 1961 _______________________________________________ Link mailing list Link at mailman.anu.edu.au http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link Make the switch to the world's best email. Get the new Yahoo!7 Mail now. www.yahoo7.com.au/worldsbestemail From kim at holburn.net Fri Jan 25 00:33:48 2008 From: kim at holburn.net (Kim Holburn) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 14:33:48 +0100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <815633.64131.qm@web50510.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <815633.64131.qm@web50510.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5169EBFF-3E90-457D-AD8B-C93FD82CC5BB@holburn.net> On 2008/Jan/24, at 12:30 PM, David Goldstein wrote: > Well, the only reboots of my computer with Vista are when an update or > new programme says I should reboot. In the 8 months I've been using > Vista I may have rebooted it because of problems once or twice. But > then, that may have just been the easier way out of working out what > the issue was. And from recollection of news reports, Vista's > uptake has been comparable to say XP. Yeah, like I said, the difference between licenses sold and what's on the machine. Many companies scrub the installed distro and install their own company version of XP or W2k. > And while you may be able to run Linux systems for years without > reboots, let's face it, the average computer user is simply not > going to use Linux - it's just way to difficult. At least with Mac > and Windows, it's just out of the box, turn it on, and you're away. Actually the only reason you can do this with windows is because Microsoft puts huge, and largely illegal, pressure on OEMs to preinstall windows, to bundle computers with windows and it has been doing this for a long time now. If you have to install windows yourself, it is way more difficult and time consuming than Linux. Usually takes me a couple of days to get everything on and secure. There are many linux distros that fire up in seconds to minutes and install in a few minutes and that includes all the applications as well. > You may beg to differ, and I've not tried to use Linux, but tech > advice says this to be the case. Microsoft trained techies? People who are used to windows will find another OS difficult at first. I remember having to give up Wordstar. My hands still remember most of the commands... But things change. > And for the vast majority of people, Windows does the job > wonderfully. Doesn't mean it couldn't be better, or even a lot > better. But it works fine. And to run it you have to have additional software, just to be secure and more to do anything useful - like applications? It's just not a problem on other platforms. -- Kim Holburn IT Network & Security Consultant Ph: +39 06 855 4294 M: +39 3494957443 mailto:kim at holburn.net aim://kimholburn skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny. -- Lloyd Biggle, Jr. Analog, Apr 1961 From kim at holburn.net Fri Jan 25 01:00:50 2008 From: kim at holburn.net (Kim Holburn) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:00:50 +0100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <47985055.6080905@praxis.com.au> References: <491433.90720.qm@web50511.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1C478970-42F2-43E7-B5FD-923BE3C9EA83@holburn.net> <47985055.6080905@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: On 2008/Jan/24, at 9:46 AM, Rick Welykochy wrote: > Kim Holburn wrote: > >>> and other OS vendors should adopt similar practices.'" >>> http://www.darkreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=143979 >> hmmmm... > > Hmmm indeed. The article discusses "operating systems in their > first year". Okay, then compare Linux in its first year to > Windows NT in its first year. > > Windows Vista "in its first year" is not a valid comparison since > it is not a new operating system. Rather, its is patchwork mess > built upon Wind/NT then Win2K then WinXP. > > As well, apples and oranges time again. 100 low level vulnerabilities > that might expose data or give a single user a service problem > (the common type of vulnerability on Linux and Unix systems) is > simply not the same as 100 high level vulnerabilities on Windows > that allow machines to be taken over as zombies and admin-level > access granted. The article was virtually an ad. Amazing the kind of ads you can get when you are as cashed up as MS. > Remind me again, how many Mac or Linux zombies are there out in the > wild? And that's the critical thing isn't it. You can rabbit on about number of vulnerabilities but in the end you have thousands of viruses and trojans actually out there on windows and not on linux or the Mac. And most people running Linux and Macs don't even have anti-virus software. Part of the problem of Windows zombies are precisely because there are so many pirated copies and really old versions out there and now MS is trying to refuse to update and patch them. You could say that a large part of the zombie problem comes directly as a result of the licensing policies of Microsoft. Kim -- Kim Holburn IT Network & Security Consultant Ph: +39 06 855 4294 M: +39 3494957443 mailto:kim at holburn.net aim://kimholburn skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny. -- Lloyd Biggle, Jr. Analog, Apr 1961 From stephen at melbpc.org.au Fri Jan 25 01:19:18 2008 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen at melbpc.org.au) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 14:19:18 GMT Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista Message-ID: <20080124141918.E2E8117731@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> Rick writes: > Until the underlying causes of inequity are solved, Africa > will have lots of problems. Agreed, so we do what we can, where we can, while we can. In the Philippines for example, most homes have electricity .. a villiage generator, lights out at ten, or eco-friendly water-wheels in the myriad fast flowing mountain streams, and in which case it's 24/7 for lights or a computer or a television. Net-cafes and mobiles are literally everywhere. This computer I'm using now, a 486sx and Win98, because it's comfortable in this room, works fine. As does most computer hardware, way beyond microsoft's timetable. Win XP won't run on this, but it will on the hundreds of thousands of Phils school computers. Come on Microsoft, give away XP to them. Even if you don't support it, a re-install now and then on a virused school-student machine rarely looses mission critical data. And in towns & villages all over the worlfd, it would be hard to imagine a better incentive to buy/salvage those old computers than a spanking fresh, shiney, legal copy of Windows XP. Come on Microsoft, give XP to the world. You've finished with it, you don't want it, you're going virtual ... Virtualization Microsoft Pushes Virtualization Wendy Tanaka, 01.22.08, 12:01 AM ET "Watch out, VMware. We're coming after your space!" is the underlying message of Microsoft's new strategy for virtualization--software services that help businesses reduce costs and improve business processes. Microsoft on Monday planned to announce what it calls a companywide strategy to accelerate broad adoption of virtualization by its customers. As part of its new approach, the Redmond, Wash.-based software giant unveiled a suite of services aimed at reducing the number of servers businesses need to use, separating applications from operating systems, reducing costs, and--thanks to trimmed energy use--lowering carbon emissions. Industry experts say virtualization is the wave of the future in enterprise computing. Sector leader VMware, of Palo Alto, Calif., shined a light on the space last fall after its ultra-successful initial public offering. Since then, other business-software makers have been rushing to offer similar services. Microsoft announced that it competed acquisition of Calista Technologies, a San Jose, Calif.-based start-up that makes computer graphics for virtualized computers, in addition to an expanded partnership with Citrix Systems, a VMware competitor based in Fort Lauderdale, Fla. Microsoft and Citrix will jointly market services that "virtualize" computers, operating systems and applications. Microsoft's shot across the bow at VMware is inevitable as companies throughout the industry shift to Web-based services. "Microsoft needs to get something into the market quickly," says Roger Kay, president of technology research firm Endpoint Technologies Associate. "Windows Office has 10 years to burn, but it will become less relevant." He notes that virtualization could prove more profitable for Microsoft than, say, search advertising, where it is a distant No. 3 to Google, because the company already has a strong presence in the enterprise space. Microsoft wouldn't disclose how much it paid for Calista, but Kay speculates that the price tag was likely south of $100 million. He also says Microsoft may be interested in acquiring Citrix. "Citrix, on its own, has a small market share," Kay says. "VMware was cleaning its clock." A Microsoft-Citrix combination could present formidable competition to VMware, he suggests. Buying Citrix, however, would be a significant deal: The company has a market capitalization of $6.4 billion. (IBM first introduced virtualization for mainframe computers in the early '60s, but analysts say enterprisewide advancements are more recent. A fully virtualized enterprise is years away. Microsoft estimates that only 5% of businesses are using virtualization.) -- Cheers, people Stephen Loosley Victoria, Australia From stephen at melbpc.org.au Fri Jan 25 02:36:01 2008 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen at melbpc.org.au) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:36:01 GMT Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista Message-ID: <20080124153601.526DA17731@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> Andrew writes, > You may well find that many institutions in the Philippines don't want > XP, Vista or any flavor of Windows. There have been moves, in recent > years, to roll out open source .. We've been talking to different people, Andrew. I find that Filipinas want to use Windows, and the net, the same as 90% of PC-net users world wide. ?A Computer for Every School? or ACES is a (Phils Gov) project aiming to put at least one (Win) computer in every school in the Philippines. But with the budget limited, they are now considering using GNU/Linux instead" It would seem a brilliant move by microsoft to give them XP. But whatever, Filipinas aren't silly, and, as you say, open source is growing steadly. But I don't hear any of the Phils it-teachers I often talk with say they care all that much about the evils of the 'growing-evil-empire-microsoft'. They just want their school and student computers to continue to work. And why not? Thus I say let them continue to use what everyone else uses. WinXP Cheers, Andrew Stephen Loosley Victoria, Australia From rick at praxis.com.au Fri Jan 25 04:58:43 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 04:58:43 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <20080124141918.E2E8117731@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> References: <20080124141918.E2E8117731@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <4798D1D3.4040500@praxis.com.au> stephen at melbpc.org.au wrote: > Come on Microsoft, give XP to the world. You've finished with it, you > don't want it, you're going virtual ... I've got one word to say to you, Stephen: Zombies. Well, several words: bot wars (on Windows), bot armies, DDos attacks, SPAM and PRON distribution, identity theft, sophisticated phishing. These are all possible courtesy of one single IT company: Microsoft. The current dismal security situation on the Net is mainly due to the "ease of use" promoted by Microsoft. WinXP is a very bad move if WinXP is no longer supported with security updates. New exploits are found in Windows all the time. And this will not end tomorrow. The only safe Windows box is disconnected from the Internet. In safely configured server installations, Linux/Unix lives out there on the periphery (sometimes even being the periphery), and Windows servers are located way inside the secure zones, completely isolated and firewalled from the Internet. As many services as possible are proxied before being sent on to Windows. You know the drill: email cascades through Linux-run services before being handed over to Exchange. Apache on Linux reverse proxies traffic or redirects to internal IIS services. Etc. etc. On the client side, you have a snowflake's chance in hell of directly connecting a WinXP box to the Internet, get the security updates downloaded and installed and reboot before your box is compromised. This has been discussed time and time again on the list. It takes advanced technical skill to get a Winders box setup and on the Net without it being compromised in minutes. Giving WinXP to millions of unskilled users will only make the current problems on the Internet worse. Add third world conditions to the mix, and you've got an ever-escalating threat. In Australia we have access to and can afford the myriad extra resources required to secure client-side Windows, even if most consumers don't bother the use them. In the third world, these resources are scarce, cost money and I doubt will be used at all. Getting back to zombies (i.e. the compromised box sitting in your loungeroom), we all know they can be used for distributing SPAM and PRON. But they can also be used to tunnel and hide traffic usage patterns (think of a Tor-style bot net). This presents a rather serious security threat. It makes the task of tracking terrorist communications that much harder, if not impossible. It stymies law enforcement tracking down and stamping out kiddie pron. In general, zombies present a new security threat that has not even begin to be dealt with. > Virtualization > Microsoft Pushes Virtualization > Wendy Tanaka, 01.22.08, 12:01 AM ET > vmware-calista-tech-cx_wt_0121microsoft.html> > > "Watch out, VMware. We're coming after your space!" is the underlying > message of Microsoft's new strategy for virtualization--software services > that help businesses reduce costs and improve business processes. > > Microsoft on Monday planned to announce what it calls a companywide > strategy to accelerate broad adoption of virtualization by its customers. > > As part of its new approach, the Redmond, Wash.-based software giant > unveiled a suite of services aimed at reducing the number of servers > businesses need to use, separating applications from operating systems, > reducing costs, and--thanks to trimmed energy use--lowering carbon > emissions. This *might* be welcomed on the server side. With current offerings, a medium-size Windows-based enterprise must deploy one box for SQL database, another for email services, yet another for file sharing and printing, ... you get the picture. Windows has serious scaleability issues that are addressed by installing more and more hardware. Compare this to Linux. On the one box, all these services are installed and deployed, and the box usually sits there at 50% idle. I know I am generalising, but this is a common pattern when comparing a Windows server installation to a Linux one. But get this: if Windows right now requires one to distribute various daemons (services) on different physical boxes due to scaleability issues, that problem does not vanish when one moves to virtualisation. Smoke and mirrors and *extra grunt* will make it appear that there is a gain, but at the cost of replacing, say, ten individual boxes with one with ten times the grunt, hardware, memory and expense. There may be some savings through a refactoring effect in the shared hardware. I don't know if this has been quantified. Of course, once again, Microsoft is not an innovator in the area of virtualisation. As mentioned in the article, they'll be acquiring, embracing and extinguishing to accomplish their goal. Don't believe the hype. This is yet again Not A Good Thing. It is yet another attempt by Microsoft to clear-fell another sector of the IT market. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Your food stamps will be stopped effective March 1992 because we received notice that you passed away. May God bless you. You may reapply if there is a change in your circumstances. -- Department of Social Services, Greenville, South Carolina From cas at taz.net.au Fri Jan 25 06:58:50 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 06:58:50 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <20080124153601.526DA17731@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> References: <20080124153601.526DA17731@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <20080124195850.GY6828@taz.net.au> On Thu, Jan 24, 2008 at 03:36:01PM +0000, stephen at melbpc.org.au wrote: > They just want their school and student computers to continue to > work. And why not? Thus I say let them continue to use what everyone > else uses. WinXP better to give them something that works and works reliably & securely. Windows' much vaunted superior "ease-of-use" comes solely from the fact that people are used to it, and most people are reluctant to change - a very common attitude is "it was very hard to learn windows over the last few years, i don't want to go through that again with a new OS". the fact that software like linux - or mac os - works logically and *consistently*, so is actually easier to learn, and the fact that much of the general usage knowledge they've already learnt will directly transfer doesn't change that attitude at all. they don't believe it, any more than they believe that it's possible for a computer system to be secure or not crash. Microsoft has lowered the bar of expectation and now users think that it's *NORMAL* for computers to crash all the time. that's one of the things i dislike most about microsoft - that they have made people think it's normal and acceptable for computers to be unreliable garbage, when they don't have to be. there's a chance here for users in the Phillipines (and other countries) to get used to a decent OS rather than MS's insecure & unreliable rubbish. craig -- craig sanders BOFH excuse #402: Secretary sent chain letter to all 5000 employees. From wavey_one at yahoo.com Fri Jan 25 14:43:02 2008 From: wavey_one at yahoo.com (David Goldstein) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 19:43:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista Message-ID: <900936.53461.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> How much is the security problem with Microsoft products to do with if you attack Windows-based computers you can potentially reach well over 90% of the world's computers and how much is to do with the design of the software? Whatever its validity there are stories circulating more and more of hackers hacking into Mac computers, precisely because there are more of them now and it's becoming worthwhile for hackers to delve into this area. David ----- Original Message ---- From: Rick Welykochy To: stephen at melbpc.org.au Cc: link at anu.edu.au Sent: Friday, 25 January, 2008 4:58:43 AM Subject: Re: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista stephen at melbpc.org.au wrote: > Come on Microsoft, give XP to the world. You've finished with it, you > don't want it, you're going virtual ... I've got one word to say to you, Stephen: Zombies. Well, several words: bot wars (on Windows), bot armies, DDos attacks, SPAM and PRON distribution, identity theft, sophisticated phishing. These are all possible courtesy of one single IT company: Microsoft. The current dismal security situation on the Net is mainly due to the "ease of use" promoted by Microsoft. WinXP is a very bad move if WinXP is no longer supported with security updates. New exploits are found in Windows all the time. And this will not end tomorrow. The only safe Windows box is disconnected from the Internet. In safely configured server installations, Linux/Unix lives out there on the periphery (sometimes even being the periphery), and Windows servers are located way inside the secure zones, completely isolated and firewalled from the Internet. As many services as possible are proxied before being sent on to Windows. You know the drill: email cascades through Linux-run services before being handed over to Exchange. Apache on Linux reverse proxies traffic or redirects to internal IIS services. Etc. etc. On the client side, you have a snowflake's chance in hell of directly connecting a WinXP box to the Internet, get the security updates downloaded and installed and reboot before your box is compromised. This has been discussed time and time again on the list. It takes advanced technical skill to get a Winders box setup and on the Net without it being compromised in minutes. Giving WinXP to millions of unskilled users will only make the current problems on the Internet worse. Add third world conditions to the mix, and you've got an ever-escalating threat. In Australia we have access to and can afford the myriad extra resources required to secure client-side Windows, even if most consumers don't bother the use them. In the third world, these resources are scarce, cost money and I doubt will be used at all. Getting back to zombies (i.e. the compromised box sitting in your loungeroom), we all know they can be used for distributing SPAM and PRON. But they can also be used to tunnel and hide traffic usage patterns (think of a Tor-style bot net). This presents a rather serious security threat. It makes the task of tracking terrorist communications that much harder, if not impossible. It stymies law enforcement tracking down and stamping out kiddie pron. In general, zombies present a new security threat that has not even begin to be dealt with. > Virtualization > Microsoft Pushes Virtualization > Wendy Tanaka, 01.22.08, 12:01 AM ET > vmware-calista-tech-cx_wt_0121microsoft.html> > > "Watch out, VMware. We're coming after your space!" is the underlying > message of Microsoft's new strategy for virtualization--software services > that help businesses reduce costs and improve business processes. > > Microsoft on Monday planned to announce what it calls a companywide > strategy to accelerate broad adoption of virtualization by its customers. > > As part of its new approach, the Redmond, Wash.-based software giant > unveiled a suite of services aimed at reducing the number of servers > businesses need to use, separating applications from operating systems, > reducing costs, and--thanks to trimmed energy use--lowering carbon > emissions. This *might* be welcomed on the server side. With current offerings, a medium-size Windows-based enterprise must deploy one box for SQL database, another for email services, yet another for file sharing and printing, ... you get the picture. Windows has serious scaleability issues that are addressed by installing more and more hardware. Compare this to Linux. On the one box, all these services are installed and deployed, and the box usually sits there at 50% idle. I know I am generalising, but this is a common pattern when comparing a Windows server installation to a Linux one. But get this: if Windows right now requires one to distribute various daemons (services) on different physical boxes due to scaleability issues, that problem does not vanish when one moves to virtualisation. Smoke and mirrors and *extra grunt* will make it appear that there is a gain, but at the cost of replacing, say, ten individual boxes with one with ten times the grunt, hardware, memory and expense. There may be some savings through a refactoring effect in the shared hardware. I don't know if this has been quantified. Of course, once again, Microsoft is not an innovator in the area of virtualisation. As mentioned in the article, they'll be acquiring, embracing and extinguishing to accomplish their goal. Don't believe the hype. This is yet again Not A Good Thing. It is yet another attempt by Microsoft to clear-fell another sector of the IT market. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Your food stamps will be stopped effective March 1992 because we received notice that you passed away. May God bless you. You may reapply if there is a change in your circumstances. -- Department of Social Services, Greenville, South Carolina _______________________________________________ Link mailing list Link at mailman.anu.edu.au http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link Make the switch to the world's best email. Get the new Yahoo!7 Mail now. www.yahoo7.com.au/worldsbestemail From ivan at itrundle.com Fri Jan 25 14:59:41 2008 From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 14:59:41 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <900936.53461.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <900936.53461.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <82B9A2DF-4306-497D-81F2-213458AC9D08@itrundle.com> On 25/01/2008, at 2:43 PM, David Goldstein wrote: > Whatever its validity there are stories circulating more and more of > hackers hacking into Mac computers, precisely because there are more > of them now and it's becoming worthwhile for hackers to delve into > this area. Where are these stories? I've been using networked Macs for years, and diligently look for any possible intrusions or malware, but have yet to find any. And it's not just 'security through obscurity', either - an inherently stronger system is going to be hacked less, regardless of numbers. iT -- Ivan Trundle http://itrundle.com ivan at itrundle.com ph: +61 (0)418 244 259 fx: +61 (0)2 6286 8742 skype: callto://ivanovitchk From adrian at creative.net.au Fri Jan 25 15:28:51 2008 From: adrian at creative.net.au (Adrian Chadd) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:28:51 +0900 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <900936.53461.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <900936.53461.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080125042851.GI8454@skywalker.creative.net.au> On Thu, Jan 24, 2008, David Goldstein wrote: > How much is the security problem with Microsoft products to do with if you attack Windows-based computers you can potentially reach well over 90% of the world's computers and how much is to do with the design of the software? > > Whatever its validity there are stories circulating more and more of hackers hacking into Mac computers, precisely because there are more of them now and it's becoming worthwhile for hackers to delve into this area. Software isn't engineered like a bridge is engineered. Thats really the core of the problem. The "software engineering" stuff in the CS course I've since quit in disgust focuses on methodology (UML), concepts (OO), language (Java) and teamwork; completely forgetting how to write efficient, secure code in a hostile environment. It'd be nice if software engineering had exactly the same liabilities as the rest of the engineering field. :) Adrian From adrian at creative.net.au Fri Jan 25 15:31:51 2008 From: adrian at creative.net.au (Adrian Chadd) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:31:51 +0900 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <82B9A2DF-4306-497D-81F2-213458AC9D08@itrundle.com> References: <900936.53461.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <82B9A2DF-4306-497D-81F2-213458AC9D08@itrundle.com> Message-ID: <20080125043151.GJ8454@skywalker.creative.net.au> On Fri, Jan 25, 2008, Ivan Trundle wrote: > Where are these stories? I've been using networked Macs for years, and > diligently look for any possible intrusions or malware, but have yet > to find any. > > And it's not just 'security through obscurity', either - an inherently > stronger system is going to be hacked less, regardless of numbers. The problem is that the user is involved in making decisions which affect security. Apple products don't have a spotless security record. Plenty of the UNIX subsystem stuff has had issues which do show up as MacOS X vulnerabilities. The problem is that this industry hasn't yet found the right balance between "sandboxing" and "granting access to data"; usually you're either -very- sandboxed (eg flash, for the most part), or you get access to do almost anything you want (eg javascript, java (sandboxed or not), web browsers and their "Cross site" magic, etc.) There's no middle ground thats actually -properly- implemented. Liability is where its at :) 2c, Adrian From grove at zeta.org.au Fri Jan 25 15:34:00 2008 From: grove at zeta.org.au (grove at zeta.org.au) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 15:34:00 +1100 (EST) Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <82B9A2DF-4306-497D-81F2-213458AC9D08@itrundle.com> References: <900936.53461.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <82B9A2DF-4306-497D-81F2-213458AC9D08@itrundle.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Jan 2008, Ivan Trundle wrote: > > On 25/01/2008, at 2:43 PM, David Goldstein wrote: > >> Whatever its validity there are stories circulating more and more of >> hackers hacking into Mac computers, precisely because there are more of >> them now and it's becoming worthwhile for hackers to delve into this area. > > Where are these stories? I've been using networked Macs for years, and > diligently look for any possible intrusions or malware, but have yet to find > any. I concur. I can't get a positive result for my Mac or anyone else I know running OSX - any version. > And it's not just 'security through obscurity', either - an inherently > stronger system is going to be hacked less, regardless of numbers. And all we have to go on regarding Vista is Microsoft's own spin doctors. Vista is going nowhere so the astroturfing is coming thick and fast. rachel -- Rachel Polanskis Kingswood, Greater Western Sydney, Australia grove at zeta.org.au http://www.zeta.org.au/~grove/grove.html The price of greatness is responsibility. From grove at zeta.org.au Fri Jan 25 15:37:59 2008 From: grove at zeta.org.au (grove at zeta.org.au) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 15:37:59 +1100 (EST) Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <47991DFA.6000203@lannet.com.au> References: <359817.6436.qm@web50505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <47991DFA.6000203@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Jan 2008, Howard Lowndes wrote: > As you probably know, I am about to head for Nepal where Internet access is > limited even in KTM and non-existent is some places where I will be working, > and is not helped by power outages for extended periods. Microsoft tech support is pretty thin on the ground in Nepal, from what I hear, too...... I can just see you calling up on a sat-phone and "your call has been placed in a queue...." rachel -- Rachel Polanskis Kingswood, Greater Western Sydney, Australia grove at zeta.org.au http://www.zeta.org.au/~grove/grove.html The price of greatness is responsibility. From rick at praxis.com.au Fri Jan 25 15:44:48 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 15:44:48 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <900936.53461.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <900936.53461.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47996940.4050503@praxis.com.au> David Goldstein wrote: > How much is the security problem with Microsoft products to do with if you attack Windows-based computers you can potentially reach well over 90% of the world's computers and how much is to do with the design of the software? It is 100% with the design of the software. The ubiquity argument doesn't wash. We've covered this on Link many times. Lots of good counter examples, most popular being Apache. > Whatever its validity there are stories circulating more and more of hackers hacking into Mac computers, precisely because there are more of them now and it's becoming worthwhile for hackers to delve into this area. "stories" ... meh! Repeat after me. Ubiquity != insecurity. Do you have a technical background, David? Anyone who does will ask the first question: where are these stories? And are they FUD? Then they will quote you the numbers: Windows: in excess of 60,000 viruses, 100's of millions of compromised machines. *nix + Mac: a handful of viruses, conceptually. None demonstrateed in the wild AFAIK. I can only guess at the number of compromised machines, but no zombies. A couple of worms ran through Unix and Net in all of its history. No bot storms. No SPAM relaying. Nothing else. Go figure. But people cling onto the best-marketed pile of crap on the planet. And no one want to hear that they have made a bad consumer / enterprise choice. Enough said. This has been going around in circles on Link for years. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Your food stamps will be stopped effective March 1992 because we received notice that you passed away. May God bless you. You may reapply if there is a change in your circumstances. -- Department of Social Services, Greenville, South Carolina From ivan at itrundle.com Fri Jan 25 16:33:41 2008 From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:33:41 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: References: <900936.53461.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <82B9A2DF-4306-497D-81F2-213458AC9D08@itrundle.com> Message-ID: <0B9F161A-CA2E-474C-AC0E-9B33B649FC7D@itrundle.com> On 25/01/2008, at 3:34 PM, grove at zeta.org.au wrote: > On Fri, 25 Jan 2008, Ivan Trundle wrote: > >> >> On 25/01/2008, at 2:43 PM, David Goldstein wrote: >> >>> Whatever its validity there are stories circulating more and more >>> of hackers hacking into Mac computers, precisely because there are >>> more of them now and it's becoming worthwhile for hackers to delve >>> into this area. >> >> Where are these stories? I've been using networked Macs for years, >> and diligently look for any possible intrusions or malware, but >> have yet to find any. > > I concur. I can't get a positive result for my Mac or anyone else I > know running OSX - any version. Want some *real* spin from Microsoft? And to demonstrate that stats will prove anything? Try this 15 January 24-page report from the Jeffrey R Jones* Security Blog: Vista One-year vulnerability report. Gizmodo has some of the charts from the PDF report, and a brief analysis: http://gizmodo.com/348437/microsoft-says-vista-more-secure-than-xp-osx-and-linux ...but the full report is here: http://blogs.technet.com/security/archive/2008/01/23/download-windows-vista-one-year-vulnerability-report.aspx And just to show that he lives by his words, directly from the report itself: "Jeff actively encourages readers to challenge his assumptions, analysis and conclusions and provide critical feedback ? but asks for equal (or better) rigor in methodology and analysis to support the challenges, as opposed to enthusiastic espousal of unsupported evangelistic fervor." Brought tears to my eyes, it really did... ( * JRJ is also a director of Microsoft ) From kim at holburn.net Fri Jan 25 19:29:09 2008 From: kim at holburn.net (Kim Holburn) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:29:09 +0100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <900936.53461.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <900936.53461.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1842629B-DC62-45C0-8ACF-7C7DCBB877D9@holburn.net> On 2008/Jan/25, at 4:43 AM, David Goldstein wrote: > How much is the security problem with Microsoft products to do with > if you attack Windows-based computers you can potentially reach > well over 90% of the world's computers and how much is to do with > the design of the software? > > Whatever its validity there are stories circulating more and more > of hackers hacking into Mac computers, precisely because there are > more of them now and it's becoming worthwhile for hackers to delve > into this area. Here's some reading on the subject: Security Report: Windows vs Linux http://www.theregister.co.uk/security/security_report_windows_vs_linux/ 2006 Operating System Vulnerability Summary http://www.omninerd.com/2007/03/26/articles/74 Linux vs. Windows: Which is Most Secure? http://www.esecurityplanet.com/views/article.php/3665801 Linux Security: A Big Edge Over Windows http://www.linuxinsider.com/rsstory/54742.html The problems with Vista laid bare - What might have been http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=38419 Why Windows is less secure than Linux http://blogs.zdnet.com/threatchaos/?p=311 Linux more secure than Windows, national survey shows http://www.xomba.com/ linux_more_secure_than_windows_national_survey_shows Microsoft Windows: Insecure by Design http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A34978-2003Aug23? language=printer If Only We Knew Then What We Know Now About Windows XP http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/23/ AR2006092300510.html?nav=rss_technology Why Windows is a security nightmare. http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/21/1085120110704.html The Structural Failures of Windows http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=15305 > > David > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Rick Welykochy > To: stephen at melbpc.org.au > Cc: link at anu.edu.au > Sent: Friday, 25 January, 2008 4:58:43 AM > Subject: Re: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista > > stephen at melbpc.org.au wrote: > >> Come on Microsoft, give XP to the world. You've finished with it, you > >> don't want it, you're going virtual ... > > I've got one word to say to you, Stephen: Zombies. Well, several > words: > bot wars (on Windows), bot armies, DDos attacks, SPAM and PRON > distribution, > identity theft, sophisticated phishing. These are all possible > courtesy > of one single IT company: Microsoft. The current dismal security > situation > on the Net is mainly due to the "ease of use" promoted by Microsoft. > > WinXP is a very bad move if WinXP is no longer supported with security > updates. New exploits are found in Windows all the time. And this > will not end tomorrow. > > The only safe Windows box is disconnected from the Internet. > > In safely configured server installations, Linux/Unix lives out there > on the periphery (sometimes even being the periphery), and Windows > servers > are located way inside the secure zones, completely isolated and > firewalled > from the Internet. As many services as possible are proxied before > being sent on to Windows. You know the drill: email cascades through > Linux-run services before being handed over to Exchange. Apache on > Linux reverse proxies traffic or redirects to internal IIS services. > Etc. etc. > > On the client side, you have a snowflake's chance in hell of directly > connecting a WinXP box to the Internet, get the security updates > downloaded > and installed and reboot before your box is compromised. This has been > discussed time and time again on the list. It takes advanced technical > skill to get a Winders box setup and on the Net without it being > compromised > in minutes. > > Giving WinXP to millions of unskilled users will only make the current > problems > on the Internet worse. Add third world conditions to the mix, and > you've > got an ever-escalating threat. In Australia we have access to and can > afford > the myriad extra resources required to secure client-side Windows, > even > if most > consumers don't bother the use them. In the third world, these > resources are > scarce, cost money and I doubt will be used at all. > > Getting back to zombies (i.e. the compromised box sitting in your > loungeroom), > we all know they can be used for distributing SPAM and PRON. But they > can also > be used to tunnel and hide traffic usage patterns (think of a Tor- > style > bot net). > This presents a rather serious security threat. It makes the task of > tracking > terrorist communications that much harder, if not impossible. It > stymies > law enforcement tracking down and stamping out kiddie pron. In > general, > zombies > present a new security threat that has not even begin to be dealt > with. > > >> Virtualization >> Microsoft Pushes Virtualization >> Wendy Tanaka, 01.22.08, 12:01 AM ET >> > microsoft- >> vmware-calista-tech-cx_wt_0121microsoft.html> >> >> "Watch out, VMware. We're coming after your space!" is the underlying > >> message of Microsoft's new strategy for virtualization--software > services >> that help businesses reduce costs and improve business processes. >> >> Microsoft on Monday planned to announce what it calls a companywide >> strategy to accelerate broad adoption of virtualization by its > customers. >> >> As part of its new approach, the Redmond, Wash.-based software giant >> unveiled a suite of services aimed at reducing the number of servers >> businesses need to use, separating applications from operating > systems, >> reducing costs, and--thanks to trimmed energy use--lowering carbon >> emissions. > > This *might* be welcomed on the server side. With current offerings, a > medium-size Windows-based enterprise must deploy one box for SQL > database, > another for email services, yet another for file sharing and printing, > ... you get the picture. Windows has serious scaleability issues that > are addressed by installing more and more hardware. > > Compare this to Linux. On the one box, all these services are > installed > and deployed, and the box usually sits there at 50% idle. > > I know I am generalising, but this is a common pattern when comparing > a Windows server installation to a Linux one. > > But get this: if Windows right now requires one to distribute various > daemons > (services) on different physical boxes due to scaleability issues, > that > problem does not vanish when one moves to virtualisation. Smoke and > mirrors > and *extra grunt* will make it appear that there is a gain, but at > the > cost > of replacing, say, ten individual boxes with one with ten times the > grunt, > hardware, memory and expense. There may be some savings through a > refactoring > effect in the shared hardware. I don't know if this has been > quantified. > > Of course, once again, Microsoft is not an innovator in the area of > virtualisation. > As mentioned in the article, they'll be acquiring, embracing and > extinguishing > to accomplish their goal. Don't believe the hype. This is yet again > Not > A Good Thing. > It is yet another attempt by Microsoft to clear-fell another sector of > the > IT market. > > > cheers > rickw > > > -- > _________________________________ > Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services > > Your food stamps will be stopped effective March 1992 because we > received notice > that you passed away. May God bless you. You may reapply if there is a > change in > your circumstances. > -- Department of Social Services, Greenville, South Carolina > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link at mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > > > > > > Make the switch to the world's best email. Get the new Yahoo! > 7 Mail now. www.yahoo7.com.au/worldsbestemail > > > > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link at mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link -- Kim Holburn IT Network & Security Consultant Ph: +39 06 855 4294 M: +39 3494957443 mailto:kim at holburn.net aim://kimholburn skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny. -- Lloyd Biggle, Jr. Analog, Apr 1961 From cas at taz.net.au Fri Jan 25 19:38:59 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 19:38:59 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <900936.53461.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <900936.53461.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080125083859.GA6828@taz.net.au> On Thu, Jan 24, 2008 at 07:43:02PM -0800, David Goldstein wrote: > Whatever its validity there are stories circulating more and more of > hackers hacking into Mac computers, precisely because there are more > of them now and it's becoming worthwhile for hackers to delve into > this area. ah, here we see the Fallacy of Ubiquity in another guise. Windows doesn't have more viruses, more exploits, more malware because it is the most common operating system. it has those things because it is crappily written, insecure software and because microsoft don't give a damn about security and never has. the fact that Windows is the most common OS just makes it a problem for everyone, rather than just those unfortunate enough to use it. craig -- craig sanders BOFH excuse #282: High altitude condensation from U.S.A.F prototype aircraft has contaminated the primary subnet mask. Turn off your computer for 9 days to avoid damaging it. From robinstephens at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 20:15:46 2008 From: robinstephens at gmail.com (Robin Stephens) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:15:46 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <900936.53461.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <900936.53461.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8056c7e90801250115u1fe85c36w122c1e3a9b8b5b75@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 25, 2008 2:43 PM, David Goldstein wrote: > How much is the security problem with Microsoft products to do with if you attack Windows-based computers you can potentially reach well over 90% of the world's computers and how much is to do with the design of the software? People keep using this correlation to argue the point of why Windows has so many viruses but it is unproven that ubiquity is the reason for so much malware. "Correlation does not imply causation" is a phrase commonly used in scientific circles. The fact that Windows is the most installed *and* most attacked by viruses does not necessarily mean that one caused the other. There could be a relationship between the two facts but at this point it is unproven. Other factors such as quality of code could also be a cause. Robin From stephen at melbpc.org.au Fri Jan 25 21:24:51 2008 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen at melbpc.org.au) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 10:24:51 GMT Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista Message-ID: <20080125102451.57EF217739@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> Hi Rick and all, Thanks Rick, a fascinating read, from a genuine ICT professional. Re problems with Microsoft products, one might speculate that giving the world's libraries, schools and school-children free copies of WinXP might well reduce the number of OEM problem machines? And, especially so, if: a) Microsoft bring out a free and legal final XP version for third-world schools to update the OEM. Who'd want to hack it, except for net-throughput? And b) Most third world school-computers are stand-alone-with-modem tools. Reportedly, the Phils (pop:80M) has around 10 million net users, with half a million or so broadband accounts, and around 2 million computers. With a free new Remote-Area version of XP, mostly as a school learning tool, though also sometimes for slow modem net-access, one guesses badies would seek alternate net access. Especialy since that one computer with the modem is usually tied down quite well. Eg careful sys-admin allocation and firewalls, AVG/Sophos etc, and quite tight physical security. Teachers are not irresponsible. etc. And, I completely agree, Rick, many many problems regarding third world computer equity can be solved with open source operating systems and apps. But how many nix flavours have drivers for ten year old no-name dot matrix printers? Or the Principal's 1992 Chinese WeFly ink-jet, or even maybe the Phils/Tiawanese soundcards? There's not a lot of use for computers with few I-O capabilities. I guess they could teach graphics, but not with a stylus, just the mouse. And print-preview will have to do, and lets hope the school's 28.8kbps modem came with nix drivers, and we can find them. For Phils schools, even with illegal copies of Windows and Word etc, *nix isn't an option really. Not until their associated hardware expires. So,in the interim, I say give them XP. It's 20 Million poor kids in poor schools we are talking about, with in-frequent and slow net access. They aren't going to be a threat to our net, or your systems. And, free XP for a few years, till hardware updates of peripherals allow them the luxury of *nix? Anyway, enough from me about 3rd world schools. Free XP, for the drivers, till many peripherals are replaced, then, full steam ahead 3rd world nix! Rick writes: > > Come on Microsoft, give XP to the world. You've finished with it, you > > don't want it, you're going virtual ... > > I've got one word to say to you, Stephen: Zombies. Well, several words: > bot wars (on Windows), bot armies, DDos attacks, SPAM and PRON distribution, > identity theft, sophisticated phishing. These are all possible courtesy > of one single IT company: Microsoft. The current dismal security situation > on the Net is mainly due to the "ease of use" promoted by Microsoft. > > WinXP is a very bad move if WinXP is no longer supported with security > updates. New exploits are found in Windows all the time. And this > will not end tomorrow. > > The only safe Windows box is disconnected from the Internet. > > In safely configured server installations, Linux/Unix lives out there > on the periphery (sometimes even being the periphery), and Windows servers > are located way inside the secure zones, completely isolated and firewalled > from the Internet. As many services as possible are proxied before > being sent on to Windows. You know the drill: email cascades through > Linux-run services before being handed over to Exchange. Apache on > Linux reverse proxies traffic or redirects to internal IIS services. > Etc. etc. > > On the client side, you have a snowflake's chance in hell of directly > connecting a WinXP box to the Internet, get the security updates downloaded > and installed and reboot before your box is compromised. This has been > discussed time and time again on the list. It takes advanced technical > skill to get a Winders box setup and on the Net without it being compromised > in minutes. > > Giving WinXP to millions of unskilled users will only make the current problems > on the Internet worse. Add third world conditions to the mix, and you've > got an ever-escalating threat. In Australia we have access to and can afford > the myriad extra resources required to secure client-side Windows, even if most > consumers don't bother the use them. In the third world, these resources are > scarce, cost money and I doubt will be used at all. > > Getting back to zombies (i.e. the compromised box sitting in your loungeroom), > we all know they can be used for distributing SPAM and PRON. But they can also > be used to tunnel and hide traffic usage patterns (think of a Tor-style bot net). > This presents a rather serious security threat. It makes the task of tracking > terrorist communications that much harder, if not impossible. It stymies > law enforcement tracking down and stamping out kiddie pron. In general, zombies > present a new security threat that has not even begin to be dealt with. > > > Virtualization > > Microsoft Pushes Virtualization > > Wendy Tanaka, 01.22.08, 12:01 AM ET > > > vmware-calista-tech-cx_wt_0121microsoft.html> > > > > "Watch out, VMware. We're coming after your space!" is the underlying > > message of Microsoft's new strategy for virtualization--software services > > that help businesses reduce costs and improve business processes. > > > > Microsoft on Monday planned to announce what it calls a companywide > > strategy to accelerate broad adoption of virtualization by its customers. > > > > As part of its new approach, the Redmond, Wash.-based software giant > > unveiled a suite of services aimed at reducing the number of servers > > businesses need to use, separating applications from operating systems, > > reducing costs, and--thanks to trimmed energy use--lowering carbon > > emissions. > > This *might* be welcomed on the server side. With current offerings, a > medium-size Windows-based enterprise must deploy one box for SQL database, > another for email services, yet another for file sharing and printing, > ... you get the picture. Windows has serious scaleability issues that > are addressed by installing more and more hardware. > > Compare this to Linux. On the one box, all these services are installed > and deployed, and the box usually sits there at 50% idle. > > I know I am generalising, but this is a common pattern when comparing > a Windows server installation to a Linux one. > > But get this: if Windows right now requires one to distribute various daemons > (services) on different physical boxes due to scaleability issues, that > problem does not vanish when one moves to virtualisation. Smoke and mirrors > and *extra grunt* will make it appear that there is a gain, but at the cost > of replacing, say, ten individual boxes with one with ten times the grunt, > hardware, memory and expense. There may be some savings through a refactoring > effect in the shared hardware. I don't know if this has been quantified. > > Of course, once again, Microsoft is not an innovator in the area of virtualisation. > As mentioned in the article, they'll be acquiring, embracing and extinguishing > to accomplish their goal. Don't believe the hype. This is yet again Not A Good Thing. > It is yet another attempt by Microsoft to clear-fell another sector of the > IT market. > > cheers > rickw > Message sent using MelbPC WebMail Server From grove at zeta.org.au Fri Jan 25 23:15:20 2008 From: grove at zeta.org.au (grove at zeta.org.au) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 23:15:20 +1100 (EST) Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <20080125083859.GA6828@taz.net.au> References: <900936.53461.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20080125083859.GA6828@taz.net.au> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Jan 2008, Craig Sanders wrote: > On Thu, Jan 24, 2008 at 07:43:02PM -0800, David Goldstein wrote: > >> Whatever its validity there are stories circulating more and more of >> hackers hacking into Mac computers, precisely because there are more >> of them now and it's becoming worthwhile for hackers to delve into >> this area. > > ah, here we see the Fallacy of Ubiquity in another guise. > > Windows doesn't have more viruses, more exploits, more malware because > it is the most common operating system. it has those things because it > is crappily written, insecure software and because microsoft don't give > a damn about security and never has. > > the fact that Windows is the most common OS just makes it a problem for > everyone, rather than just those unfortunate enough to use it. The more things change, the more they stay the same.... I remember having the same argument on here about every 2 years and always the same conclusion is met. The only difference is, I am not the one saying it anymore.... rachel -- Rachel Polanskis Kingswood, Greater Western Sydney, Australia grove at zeta.org.au http://www.zeta.org.au/~grove/grove.html The price of greatness is responsibility. From scott at doc.net.au Sat Jan 26 00:55:46 2008 From: scott at doc.net.au (Scott Howard) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 00:55:46 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <20080125083859.GA6828@taz.net.au> References: <900936.53461.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20080125083859.GA6828@taz.net.au> Message-ID: On 1/25/08, Craig Sanders wrote: > > Windows doesn't have more viruses, more exploits, more malware because > it is the most common operating system. it has those things because it > is crappily written, insecure software and because microsoft don't give > a damn about security and never has. And you can sight references for that of course? Or is it just an opinion? Given that opinions seem to be the order of the day I'll throw mine in the ring... The two biggest reasons why more viruses, malware, etc, exist for Windows more than for other platforms, IMHO, are (in no particular order) : 1) Market share. A virus which can infect "one-in-a-million" Linux workstations is not going to get very far. A virus which can infect "one-in-a-million" Windows PCs has a far bigger target audience. If you were writing a virus - ignoring all other factors - which would you write it for? Virus/Malware/etc today is almost entirely about money - and money comes from quantity. 2) Clue level of users. If you take the "IT clue level" (for some definition of that term) for the average (or even better - median) Windows user, and compared it to the "IT clue level" for the average/median Linux or Mac user, which do you think will be higher? If the median Linux user gets a flash-initiated pop-up saying their computer is infected with Malware and to click here to remove it - do you think they would do it? How about the median Windows user? I'm not saying there aren't clueful Windows users out there, nor clueless Linux/Mac users, but for the moment at least the Linux/Mac camps are much more top-heavy than the Windows camp. Scott. From kim.holburn at gmail.com Sat Jan 26 04:35:14 2008 From: kim.holburn at gmail.com (Kim Holburn) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:35:14 +0100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: References: <900936.53461.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20080125083859.GA6828@taz.net.au> Message-ID: On 2008/Jan/25, at 2:55 PM, Scott Howard wrote: > On 1/25/08, Craig Sanders wrote: >> Windows doesn't have more viruses, more exploits, more malware >> because >> it is the most common operating system. it has those things >> because it >> is crappily written, insecure software and because microsoft don't >> give >> a damn about security and never has. > > And you can sight references for that of course? Or is it just an > opinion? Sophos make Anti-virus for Windows, Macs and linux. Unlike most of the other AV companies they actually understand Macs and linux and can really compare. Unlike most of the other AV companies they don't make all their money on the insecurity of windows (just most ;-). In general they have said that Macs are safer. Here's a quote from one of their press releases: "No-one should panic, and while this is an indication that hackers are showing an increased interest in targeting the Mac OS X platform it is still a lot safer place to be than Windows." Release is here: http://www.sophos.com/pressoffice/news/articles/2006/11/macarena.html The problem with the market share idea is highlighted when you look at web servers. The largest share of webserver OSs has for some time been linux. Linux webservers have never had viruses and have in general been considerably less prone to attacks. That is changing, but in general linux is not subject to automated attacks like windows is. Linux and Macs are still subject to network attacks but so is windows. It is not the case that linux and macs are "secure". It is the case that linux and macs are less insecure than windows. Clue-level of users is very important. But shouldn't a good OS protect the user? How is the user to know obscure details of OS kernel programming or system security? How can they judge network security issues? How can they possibly understand a complex question when shown a dialog box with a very limited amount of information and asked to decide? They can't and it shouldn't happen. Most of the current crop of OSs are really not very good at all at security. > Given that opinions seem to be the order of the day I'll throw mine > in the > ring... > > The two biggest reasons why more viruses, malware, etc, exist for > Windows > more than for other platforms, IMHO, are (in no particular order) : > > 1) Market share. A virus which can infect "one-in-a-million" Linux > workstations is not going to get very far. A virus which can infect > "one-in-a-million" Windows PCs has a far bigger target audience. > If you > were writing a virus - ignoring all other factors - which would you > write it > for? Virus/Malware/etc today is almost entirely about money - and > money > comes from quantity. > > 2) Clue level of users. If you take the "IT clue level" (for some > definition of that term) for the average (or even better - median) > Windows > user, and compared it to the "IT clue level" for the average/median > Linux or > Mac user, which do you think will be higher? If the median Linux > user gets > a flash-initiated pop-up saying their computer is infected with > Malware and > to click here to remove it - do you think they would do it? How > about the > median Windows user? > > I'm not saying there aren't clueful Windows users out there, nor > clueless > Linux/Mac users, but for the moment at least the Linux/Mac camps > are much > more top-heavy than the Windows camp. > > Scott. > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link at mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link -- Kim Holburn IT Network & Security Consultant Ph: +39 06 855 4294 M: +39 3494957443 mailto:kim at holburn.net aim://kimholburn skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny. -- Lloyd Biggle, Jr. Analog, Apr 1961 From ivan at itrundle.com Sat Jan 26 08:03:47 2008 From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 08:03:47 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: References: <900936.53461.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20080125083859.GA6828@taz.net.au> Message-ID: On 25/01/2008, at 11:15 PM, grove at zeta.org.au wrote: > The more things change, the more they stay the same.... > I remember having the same argument on here about every 2 years > and always the same conclusion is met. The only difference is, I > am not the one saying it anymore.... Too true (and it does get tiresome). But what fascinates *me* is that it is often recycled, and has to be denounced each time. That's the interesting puzzle. It's as if no education is taking place, and new IT pundits are rising to the surface with no knowledge or understanding of their craft, or the history of IT, or what has been said before. Perhaps this reflects that we are all awash with information, and that it will not be long before we decide to commit information to our brain cells, and not to our hard disks. I was listening to a radio program abut the cost of committing data to magnetic disks (or any other synthetic medium), and that the cost of storing data is so great that it will not be long before we take active steps to reduce the information held, and not increase it (because there is little value in retaining large chunks of information that has no relevance or meaning). iT From cas at taz.net.au Sat Jan 26 08:35:08 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 08:35:08 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: References: <900936.53461.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20080125083859.GA6828@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <20080125213508.GB6828@taz.net.au> On Sat, Jan 26, 2008 at 12:55:46AM +1100, Scott Howard wrote: > On 1/25/08, Craig Sanders wrote: > > > > Windows doesn't have more viruses, more exploits, more malware because > > it is the most common operating system. it has those things because it > > is crappily written, insecure software and because microsoft don't give > > a damn about security and never has. > > > And you can sight references for that of course? Or is it just an opinion? somebody posted numerous URLs just last night. and no, it's not just an opinion. it's fact. > The two biggest reasons why more viruses, malware, etc, exist for > Windows more than for other platforms, IMHO, are (in no particular > order) : > > 1) Market share. this is the Fallacy of Ubiquity. > A virus which can infect "one-in-a-million" Linux workstations is not > going to get very far. A virus which can infect "one-in-a-million" > Windows PCs has a far bigger target audience. If you were writing a > virus - ignoring all other factors - which would you write it for? > Virus/Malware/etc today is almost entirely about money - and money > comes from quantity. here's another silly Market Share/Ubiquity example that completely ignores the relative difficulty: police are far more likely than ordinary citizens in this country to possess guns, at least while on duty, therefore criminals steal all their guns from on-duty police officers. yes, of course that's a a stupid argument (just like the fallacy of ubiquity). that's because it's *much harder* to steal a gun from a cop than from an ordinary citizen or even to buy one on the black market. so much harder that it basically doesn't happen except in very rare and exceptional circumstances, where some other factor (like injury or unconsciousness) makes it possible. > > 2) Clue level of users. If you take the "IT clue level" (for some Cluelessness contributes of course, but Windows doesn't have a monopoly on clueless users. The average Mac user, for example, has no more of a clue about computers and technology than the average Windows user. there are technically proficient users of both Mac and Windows, but that makes little difference - they are in the minority in both cases. more importantly the proficient Mac user can honestly and confidently say that they have secured their computer. the proficient Windows user can not. > definition of that term) for the average (or even better - median) > Windows user, and compared it to the "IT clue level" for the > average/median Linux or Mac user, which do you think will be higher? > If the median Linux user gets a flash-initiated pop-up saying their > computer is infected with Malware and to click here to remove it - do > you think they would do it? How about the median Windows user? the point you're missing is that it wouldn't matter at all if the linux user did click on it. in any case, any "security" system that relies entirely on the user not doing dumb things is completely broken. not that users have to do dumb things on a windows box to get their machine infected - all they have to do is visit the wrong web page with IE (or, with a bit less risk, firefox...it's more secure than IE but cannot completely compensate for the flaws of the underlying operating system). users don't even have to visit a virus-hosting web site. cross-site scripting attacks can see them get infected merely by visiting a known and trusted forum site. > I'm not saying there aren't clueful Windows users out there, nor > clueless Linux/Mac users, but for the moment at least the Linux/Mac > camps are much more top-heavy than the Windows camp. all that shows is that clueful people gravitate towards quality operating systems. doesn't that tell you something? craig -- craig sanders BOFH excuse #44: bank holiday - system operating credits not recharged From whassaname at gmail.com Sat Jan 26 10:32:11 2008 From: whassaname at gmail.com (Johann Kruse) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 10:32:11 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista References: <359817.6436.qm@web50505.mail.re2.yahoo.com><47991DFA.6000203@lannet.com.au> <47998488.8090307@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: From: "Howard Lowndes" Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 5:41 PM Cc: Subject: Re: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista > grove at zeta.org.au wrote: >> On Fri, 25 Jan 2008, Howard Lowndes wrote: >> >>> As you probably know, I am about to head for Nepal where Internet access >>> is limited even in KTM and non-existent is some places where I will be >>> working, and is not helped by power outages for extended periods. >> >> Microsoft tech support is pretty thin on the ground in Nepal, from what I >> hear, too...... > > That suits me to a "T". All the more reason to push Linux :) Actually there is local Microsoft support and a regional service centre in Nepal - call (91) (11) 26292640. http://www.microsoft.com/learning/support/india.mspx From rick at praxis.com.au Sat Jan 26 11:55:21 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 11:55:21 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: References: <900936.53461.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20080125083859.GA6828@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <479A84F9.8080008@praxis.com.au> Scott Howard wrote: > The two biggest reasons why more viruses, malware, etc, exist for Windows > more than for other platforms, IMHO, are (in no particular order) : > > 1) Market share. A virus which can infect "one-in-a-million" Linux > workstations is not going to get very far. A virus which can infect > "one-in-a-million" Windows PCs has a far bigger target audience. If you > were writing a virus - ignoring all other factors - which would you write it > for? Virus/Malware/etc today is almost entirely about money - and money > comes from quantity. apples and oranges. The configuration of *every* WinXP box is the same. The flaws of *every* WinXP box are the same. The user getting infected has Admin privileges. This is a FACT, not an opinion. Not so on Linux. There are hundreds of different configurations. And the security flaws in Linux are minor compared to Winders. So it is more like a virus or exploit can infect "one in ten" Windows boxes. Writing a virus for Linux is very difficult since the user getting attacked is *NOT* running as the Admin. Scott, these are facts, not opinions. And we've covered this ground many many times before on Link, with submissions from highly skilled technical boffins who know their stuff. And we use logical deduction, reasoning and experience to reach our conclusions, not hyped up PR websites and MS shills. If you wish to believe the spin doctors supported by MS, that is your choice. But reason, logic and experience can show you why Winders is so insecure (from the ground up) and why *Nix systems beat it every time for performance, safety, reliability and TCO. As I've said in this thread already, we are going around in circles with this topic. Many people/institutions who have committed money and resources to Windows are embarrassed to admit they've bought a lemon. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Any sufficiently advanced technology seems like magic. -- Arthur C. Namesake From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Sat Jan 26 15:54:38 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 15:54:38 +1100 Subject: [LINK] RFC: 'A Risk Assessment Framework for Mobile Payments' Message-ID: Any thoughts, corrections, pointers, references much appreciated! A Risk Assessment Framework for Mobile Payments http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/EC/MP-RAF.html Progress in Mobile Commerce is heavily dependent upon effective and reliable payment mechanisms. Security concerns loom as a major impediment to widespread and rapid adoption, and there is accordingly an urgent need for a framework within which security issues in mobile commerce can be evaluated. This paper presents such a framework and reflects lessons from prior payment mechanisms. It provides insights into the use of the framework by performing a test application. Implications for policy, practice and research are drawn. -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From wavey_one at yahoo.com Sat Jan 26 18:33:37 2008 From: wavey_one at yahoo.com (David Goldstein) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 23:33:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista Message-ID: <176450.27189.qm@web50506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> You don't look too hard. Whatever its validity, a news search using the terms apple and hacker finds the following story first: Criminal hackers turn on Mac users Security experts have warned that hackers are fast extending their efforts beyond Windows and are actively targeting Mac users. The 2008 Security Threat Report from Sophos said that organised criminal gangs have 'arrived at Apple's doorstep with the intention of stealing money'. The report acknowledged that, while malware for Macs has long existed, criminal gangs have not felt the need to target Mac users when there are so many poorly protected Windows PCs available. http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/0125/hackers.html David ----- Original Message ---- From: Adrian Chadd To: David Goldstein Cc: link at anu.edu.au Sent: Friday, 25 January, 2008 3:28:51 PM Subject: Re: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista On Thu, Jan 24, 2008, David Goldstein wrote: > How much is the security problem with Microsoft products to do with if you attack Windows-based computers you can potentially reach well over 90% of the world's computers and how much is to do with the design of the software? > > Whatever its validity there are stories circulating more and more of hackers hacking into Mac computers, precisely because there are more of them now and it's becoming worthwhile for hackers to delve into this area. Software isn't engineered like a bridge is engineered. Thats really the core of the problem. The "software engineering" stuff in the CS course I've since quit in disgust focuses on methodology (UML), concepts (OO), language (Java) and teamwork; completely forgetting how to write efficient, secure code in a hostile environment. It'd be nice if software engineering had exactly the same liabilities as the rest of the engineering field. :) Adrian Make the switch to the world's best email. Get the new Yahoo!7 Mail now. www.yahoo7.com.au/worldsbestemail From eric.scheid at ironclad.net.au Sat Jan 26 19:41:26 2008 From: eric.scheid at ironclad.net.au (Eric Scheid) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 19:41:26 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <176450.27189.qm@web50506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 26/1/08 6:33 PM, "David Goldstein" wrote: > You don't look too hard. Whatever its validity, a news search using the terms > apple and hacker finds the following story first: > Criminal hackers turn on Mac users > Security experts have warned that hackers are fast extending their efforts > beyond Windows and are actively targeting Mac users. hmmm ... reading all the way to the bottom of that turns up this nugget: > What?s important to realise, however, is that this Trojan doesn?t exploit a > vulnerability in OS X, Leopard, Tiger, or any Apple code. This Trojan exploits > the vulnerability within the person sitting in front of the keyboard. It?s the > Mac user who has given permission for the code to run and allowing their > computer to be infected. > e. From rick at praxis.com.au Sat Jan 26 19:59:57 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 19:59:57 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <176450.27189.qm@web50506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <176450.27189.qm@web50506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <479AF68D.4020707@praxis.com.au> David Goldstein wrote: > You don't look too hard. Whatever its validity, a news search using the terms apple and hacker finds the following story first: > Criminal hackers turn on Mac users > Security experts have warned that hackers are fast extending their efforts beyond Windows and are actively targeting Mac users. > > The 2008 Security Threat Report from Sophos said that organised criminal gangs have 'arrived at Apple's doorstep with the intention of stealing money'. > > The report acknowledged that, while malware for Macs has long existed, > criminal gangs have not felt the need to target Mac users when there > are so many poorly protected Windows PCs available. > http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/0125/hackers.html Did you actually read about the malware? http://www.sophos.com/security/blog/2007/11/729.html and I quote the steps to install the malware: 1. Computer users are encouraged to install a codec to allow them to watch a video on a website. 2. The fake Codec program presents a license agreement, which the user has to agree to before installation. 3. They next need to give permission for the program to install itself, by entering their username and password. "What?s important to realise, however, is that this Trojan doesn?t exploit a vulnerability in OS X, Leopard, Tiger, or any Apple code. This Trojan exploits the vulnerability within the person sitting in front of the keyboard." So if you 1. download software from an untrusted source and 2. click to accept a licence agreement and 3. enter the admin username and password, Voila! Trojaned! Anyone who executes steps 1 2 and 3 should return their computer to the shop in the box it came with and hand in their Internet driving licence. OTOH, the same malware on Windows is described here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlob_trojan and it would take an expert eye to avoid installing it by mistake, since *system level software* can be installed on Windows XP without changing your access permissions: you *are* the admin in WinXP. In this case, they simply click "OK" to a dialogue warning them about spyware that should be removed pronto. Suckers! BTW: "malware" can be written for *ANY* operating system. It is, as the name implies, "evil software". Nothing too amazing about that. What is amazing is that people will willingly download it, install it and run it! If you could get a Linux user to download malware, install and run it, yup, their Linux box could be compromised. But that is not a weakness on the part of Linux. It is stupidity on the part of the "luser". HTH! cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Any sufficiently advanced technology seems like magic. -- Arthur C. Namesake From adrian at creative.net.au Sat Jan 26 20:16:26 2008 From: adrian at creative.net.au (Adrian Chadd) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 18:16:26 +0900 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <479AF68D.4020707@praxis.com.au> References: <176450.27189.qm@web50506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <479AF68D.4020707@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <20080126091626.GE20620@skywalker.creative.net.au> On Sat, Jan 26, 2008, Rick Welykochy wrote: > "What???s important to realise, however, is that this Trojan doesn???t > exploit a vulnerability in OS X, Leopard, Tiger, or any Apple code. > This Trojan exploits the vulnerability within the person sitting in > front of the keyboard." Of course, I'm constantly surprised why a third-party CODEC runs with full system privileges. :) "Broken By Design" is the concept here. Adrian From dassa at dhs.org Sat Jan 26 20:18:48 2008 From: dassa at dhs.org (Darryl (Dassa) Lynch) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:18:48 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200801260918.m0Q9IpCx014901@relay01.ispone.net.au> link-bounces at anumail0.anu.edu.au wrote: || On 26/1/08 6:33 PM, "David Goldstein" wrote: || ||| You don't look too hard. Whatever its validity, a news search using ||| the terms apple and hacker finds the following story first: ||| Criminal hackers turn on Mac users ||| Security experts have warned that hackers are fast extending their ||| efforts beyond Windows and are actively targeting Mac users. || || hmmm ... reading all the way to the bottom of that turns up || this nugget: || ||| What?s important to realise, however, is that this Trojan doesn?t ||| exploit a vulnerability in OS X, Leopard, Tiger, or any Apple code. ||| This Trojan exploits the vulnerability within the person sitting in ||| front of the keyboard. It?s the Mac user who has given permission ||| for the code to run and allowing their computer to be infected. Most of the malware or trojans that infect any computer no matter what the OS require this. I've been running Windows and other other operating systems for years without any problems but I do take steps to minimise any risks and am very careful on what I allow. If you take the right precautions any OS can be safe enough to use. You do a risk assessment and take any steps necessary to minimise any potential threats. What most users fail at is not recognising the risk in the first place independent of the OS. I consider it unrealistic to expect an OS to protect users from all risks but the public seems to expect this. Not a sustainable situation in MHO. Darryl (Dassa) Lynch From rick at praxis.com.au Sat Jan 26 20:48:20 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:48:20 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <20080126091626.GE20620@skywalker.creative.net.au> References: <176450.27189.qm@web50506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <479AF68D.4020707@praxis.com.au> <20080126091626.GE20620@skywalker.creative.net.au> Message-ID: <479B01E4.6030406@praxis.com.au> Adrian Chadd wrote: > On Sat, Jan 26, 2008, Rick Welykochy wrote: > >> "What???s important to realise, however, is that this Trojan doesn???t >> exploit a vulnerability in OS X, Leopard, Tiger, or any Apple code. >> This Trojan exploits the vulnerability within the person sitting in >> front of the keyboard." > > Of course, I'm constantly surprised why a third-party CODEC runs with full > system privileges. :) > > "Broken By Design" is the concept here. don't know what you mean by "full system privileges". To install *any* software on Mac OS X, you need Administrator access rights. This prevents software from being installed by stealth. If you are referring to whether OS kernel is required to run the codec, I simply do not know. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Any sufficiently advanced technology seems like magic. -- Arthur C. Namesake From grove at zeta.org.au Sat Jan 26 23:14:54 2008 From: grove at zeta.org.au (grove at zeta.org.au) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 23:14:54 +1100 (EST) Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <176450.27189.qm@web50506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <176450.27189.qm@web50506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Jan 2008, David Goldstein wrote: > The report acknowledged that, while malware for Macs has long existed, > criminal gangs have not felt the need to target Mac users when there > are so many poorly protected Windows PCs available. > http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/0125/hackers.html The most recent exploit is really a "phishing" expedition. Unlike a virus or trojan: 1) the user must first access the site, entailing coming across it at random. 2) the user must then run the suspicious looking test. 3) the user must then choose to download the package 4) the user must then give authority to install the package. Only after all criteria are met does the exploit get onto your Mac. A virus or trojan really only needs one of either 1 or 3 to be breached. Windows allows the ordinary user to install programs as a non administrative (root) user. While Macs can do this, in general they are configured to not be as lax by default. MSW is so insecure that just visiting a site can activate all sorts of nasty stuff. Downloading a package or opening an attachment can install stuff unwarrantedly. On a Mac, getting the same level of compliancy from the OS is a lot harder. Pervasive Windows is an excuse for bad design. "Windows Everywhere" is a slogan that belies the perils. rachel -- Rachel Polanskis Kingswood, Greater Western Sydney, Australia grove at zeta.org.au http://www.zeta.org.au/~grove/grove.html The price of greatness is responsibility. From stephen at melbpc.org.au Sun Jan 27 00:42:43 2008 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen at melbpc.org.au) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 13:42:43 GMT Subject: [LINK] Win SteadyState Message-ID: <20080126134243.F0BB88B6@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> Hi all, > it would take an expert eye to avoid installing [malware] by mistake, > since *system level software* can be installed on Windows XP without > changing your access permissions: you *are* the admin in WinXP. Windows SteadyState helps protect your family, and your family computer Windows SteadyState is a (free) download for Windows XP that can help protect your family from inappropriate Web content and contact on the Web. Windows SteadyState also protects your computer settings from unwelcome changes by your children. You can download SteadyState at no charge to people using genuine Microsoft Windows XP. Windows SteadyState can return your family computer and hard disk to the condition it was before your children changed it. You just restart your computer. (Note: Windows SteadyState is for Windows XP only. Similar features, called Windows Vista Parental Controls, are built in to Windows Vista.) * Restrict access to programs and settings If you're a parent, you can use Windows SteadyState User Settings to customize the family computer and help make it safer and easier for you and your children to use. For example, to help ensure your children don???t use the Internet without your knowledge, you can create a user profile and restrict their access to Internet Explorer, Windows Messenger, and other programs on the family computer. If you don't want your children to change settings on the computer, you can simply restrict their access to Windows management features such as the Control Panel. With Windows SteadyState, you can create multiple user profiles and set a different level of restriction for each child. * Return your computer to its original state When children use the family computer, they might accidentally change important settings or download spyware, viruses, or other unwanted software. The Windows Disk Protection feature in Windows SteadyState helps you prevent these changes from causing any permanent damage to the hard disk. When you have Windows Disk Protection turned on, you can simply restart your computer to return Windows SteadyState to the condition it was in before the last user touched it. Windows SteadyState can clear all the changes made during the last user session, including installations of viruses or spyware, or deletions of critical system files. * Control your child's experience You can use Windows SteadyState to help control how your children interact with Windows, other programs, and the Web. For example, you can remove items from the Start menu for your child's user account, which simplifies your child's computing experience and can help protect your computer from unwanted changes. You can also choose which Web addresses your child can visit and block your child from opening specific programs through the Start menu. With Windows SteadyState, you can also enforce time limits on your child's sessions on the computer. * Using Windows SteadyState When you open Windows SteadyState for the first time, you see the SteadyState console, where you can choose which settings you want to change on your computer. To make the best use of Windows SteadyState features, it's a good idea to start out by adding a new user account for every person who will use the computer. You can adjust settings for each user account separately. After you've created user accounts, you can specify the restrictions you want to select for each user. You can download Windows SteadyState for your Windows XP computer at no charge. To download SteadyState and to find more information, including FAQs and discussion forums, visit the Microsoft Shared Access site. -- Cheers people Stephen Loosley Member, Victorian Institute of Teaching Message sent using MelbPC WebMail Server From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Sun Jan 27 07:30:14 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 07:30:14 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Win SteadyState In-Reply-To: <20080126134243.F0BB88B6@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> References: <20080126134243.F0BB88B6@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <6hhge8$18or3m@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> At 12:42 AM 27/01/2008, stephen at melbpc.org.au wrote: >When you have Windows Disk Protection turned on, you can simply restart >your computer to return Windows SteadyState to the condition it was in >before the last user touched it. Windows SteadyState can clear all the >changes made during the last user session, including installations of >viruses or spyware, or deletions of critical system files. How is this different from System Restore? Jan Semi-finalist - Amazon Breakout Novelist Award 2008: The Truck - A baby-boomer nostalgia murder mystery http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00121WDVA - Read and rate now! Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Writing Lesson #54: Learn to love revision. Think of it as polishing the silver for guests. - JW, May, 2007 _ __________________ _ From whassaname at gmail.com Sun Jan 27 09:36:25 2008 From: whassaname at gmail.com (Johann Kruse) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 09:36:25 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista References: <176450.27189.qm@web50506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <479AF68D.4020707@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: From: "Rick Welykochy" Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 7:59 PM To: "David Goldstein" Cc: Subject: Re: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista > and it would take an expert eye to avoid installing it by mistake, > since *system level software* can be installed on Windows XP without > changing your access permissions: you *are* the admin in WinXP. > In this case, they simply click "OK" to a dialogue warning them > about spyware that should be removed pronto. Suckers! XP, yes - which is why Vista has UAC. From whassaname at gmail.com Sun Jan 27 09:37:19 2008 From: whassaname at gmail.com (Johann Kruse) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 09:37:19 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista References: <176450.27189.qm@web50506.mail.re2.yahoo.com><479AF68D.4020707@praxis.com.au><20080126091626.GE20620@skywalker.creative.net.au> <479B01E4.6030406@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: From: "Rick Welykochy" Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 8:48 PM To: "Adrian Chadd" Cc: Subject: Re: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista > To install *any* software on Mac OS X, you need Administrator access > rights. This prevents software from being installed by stealth. > And Vista ;) From whassaname at gmail.com Sun Jan 27 09:40:04 2008 From: whassaname at gmail.com (Johann Kruse) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 09:40:04 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista References: <176450.27189.qm@web50506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <026CA60B0B034F6A9D83B869440BCD7C@southpacific.corp.microsoft.com> From: Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 11:14 PM To: "David Goldstein" Cc: Subject: Re: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista > On Fri, 25 Jan 2008, David Goldstein wrote: > >> The report acknowledged that, while malware for Macs has long existed, >> criminal gangs have not felt the need to target Mac users when there >> are so many poorly protected Windows PCs available. >> http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/0125/hackers.html > > The most recent exploit is really a "phishing" expedition. > Unlike a virus or trojan: > > 1) the user must first access the site, entailing coming across it at > random. > 2) the user must then run the suspicious looking test. > 3) the user must then choose to download the package > 4) the user must then give authority to install the package. > > Only after all criteria are met does the exploit get onto your Mac. > A virus or trojan really only needs one of either 1 or 3 to be breached. > Windows allows the ordinary user to install programs > as a non administrative (root) user. While Macs can do this, in general > they are configured to not be as lax by default. > > MSW is so insecure that just visiting a site can activate all sorts > of nasty stuff. Downloading a package or opening an attachment can > install stuff unwarrantedly. On a Mac, getting the same level of > compliancy from the OS is a lot harder. Sorry if I sound like a broken record (my previous emails), but you specifically mean Windows XP and older - Vista is the same as the Mac you describe. Cheers, Johann From rick at praxis.com.au Sun Jan 27 10:39:32 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:39:32 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: References: <176450.27189.qm@web50506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <479AF68D.4020707@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <479BC4B4.70700@praxis.com.au> Johann Kruse wrote: >> and it would take an expert eye to avoid installing it by mistake, >> since *system level software* can be installed on Windows XP without >> changing your access permissions: you *are* the admin in WinXP. >> In this case, they simply click "OK" to a dialogue warning them >> about spyware that should be removed pronto. Suckers! > > XP, yes - which is why Vista has UAC. Look before you leap. A little research goes a long way to understanding the reality behind Microsoft's marketing of UAC. Yet another attempt by MS to copycat (Apple in this case), but it is already failing. Google for "uac vista problems" turns up some 64,000 hits. Gems such as the following: [1] "Microsoft employee, John Howard, found that he needed to turn off UAC to get Microsoft?s own Money 2005 working under Vista. He writes? The workaround, it turns out, is relatively simple. However the symptoms above give no indication of the problem directly. What you need to do is turn off UAC (User Account Control). He recommends turning UAC back on after fixing the problem, but when users need to do this more than a couple of times to get a usable system, they will just leave it turned off." [2] "How Vista recognizes installer executables? It has a compatibility database as well as uses several heuristics to do that, e.g. if the file name contains the string ?setup? (Really, I?m not kidding!). Finally it looks at the executable?s manifest and most of the modern installers are expected to have such manifest embedded, which may indicate that the executable should be run as administrator." Also, the UAC is implemented in the registry via the IL scheme. All an attacker has to do is screw with the registry (sound familiar?) by phishing. And from the same article: [2] "One simple scenario of the attack is that a malicious program, running at Low IL, can wait for the user to open elevated command prompt ? it can e.g. poll the open window handles e.g. every second or so (Window enumeration is allowed even at Low IL). Once it finds the window, it can send commands to execute? Probably not that cool as the recent ?Vista Speech Exploit?, but still something to play with ;) It?s my feeling that there are more holes in UAC, but I will leave finding them all as an exercise for the readers..." [3] "Natalya Kaspersky, the company's chief executive, said that without UAC, Vista will be less secure than Windows XP SP2." A quick read of the headlines produced by the google search is enough to raise eyebrows. UAC interferes with printers, MS Office 2007 (!), MS Money (see above), and yup, hardware evice drivers. UAC is yet another attack vector into Windows. This time it is more insidious since the hapless luser has a false sense of security since she is running UAC! What could go wrong? Given Microsoft's track record, everything can go wrong, e.g. [4] Microsoft Endorses Product That Turns Off Vista UAC Nags - third party products are emerging to deal with the nagging(!) And this: "It is the Vista feature which Apple so successfully parodied in one of its "I'm a PC" ads earlier this year: the part of User Account Control which asks the user to "Cancel" or "Continue," so that a task may run under elevated privileges. Alternately, Vista can be set up so that the user is asked to supply an administrator password - instead of just clicking on "Continue" - before any process is run that requires highest-level privileges. Many users don't quite get it: Why would Vista keep asking permission over and over and over, even if it's just having the user click on a button?" [5] And "Vista's UAC Warnings Can't Be Trusted, Symantec Says". And so it goes. I turned up this information in a matter of minutes, learning far more than I wanted to (urgh). Further research will no doubt blunt enthusiasm for this to Vista. It appears that you have to provide a password to satisfy UAC, but that gets tiresome. You can configure the thing to just accept an "OKAY" button click. When that gets repetitive and boring, you can turn it off. Users will be disabling UAC toute suite! In Mac OSX, OTOH, the security of an install is simple: you *have to* type in a username/password to install software. And you cannot disable it. And there are no exceptions, variations, spoofs, etc. cheers rickw references: [1] http://beta.amanzi.co.nz/2006/11/13/microsoft-turn-off-vistas-uac-to-fix-problems/ [2] http://theinvisiblethings.blogspot.com/2007/02/running-vista-every-day.html [3] http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/soa/Microsoft-partner-Vista-less-secure-than-XP/0,130061733,339274261,00.htm [4] http://www.betanews.com/article/Microsoft_Endorses_Product_That_Turns_Off_Vista_UAC_Nags/1187970563 [5] http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/129268/vistas_uac_warnings_cant_be_trusted_symantec_says.html -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Any sufficiently advanced technology seems like magic. -- Arthur C. Namesake From rick at praxis.com.au Sun Jan 27 10:54:19 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:54:19 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <026CA60B0B034F6A9D83B869440BCD7C@southpacific.corp.microsoft.com> References: <176450.27189.qm@web50506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <026CA60B0B034F6A9D83B869440BCD7C@southpacific.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <479BC82B.6080904@praxis.com.au> Johann Kruse wrote: >> MSW is so insecure that just visiting a site can activate all sorts >> of nasty stuff. Downloading a package or opening an attachment can >> install stuff unwarrantedly. On a Mac, getting the same level of >> compliancy from the OS is a lot harder. > > > Sorry if I sound like a broken record (my previous emails), but you > specifically mean Windows XP and older - Vista is the same as the Mac > you describe. Must be a new use of the word "same". The two systems of installation protection are demonstably different, as I pointed out in my previous post. Here is the Apple advert that parodies UAC. http://movies.apple.com/movies/us/apple/getamac/apple-getamac-security_480x376.mov And forgive me .... the virus ad: http://movies.apple.com/movies/us/apple/getamac_ads1/viruses_480x376.mov cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Any sufficiently advanced technology seems like magic. -- Arthur C. Namesake From ivan at itrundle.com Sun Jan 27 13:18:50 2008 From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 13:18:50 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <479BC82B.6080904@praxis.com.au> References: <176450.27189.qm@web50506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <026CA60B0B034F6A9D83B869440BCD7C@southpacific.corp.microsoft.com> <479BC82B.6080904@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: On 27/01/2008, at 10:54 AM, Rick Welykochy wrote: >>> MSW is so insecure that just visiting a site can activate all sorts >>> of nasty stuff. Downloading a package or opening an attachment >>> can install stuff unwarrantedly. On a Mac, getting the same level >>> of compliancy from the OS is a lot harder. > Microsoft still has much to learn: their latest offering for the Mac OS, Office 2008, is broken - from a installation security perspective. http://www.tuaw.com/2008/01/26/macbu-promises-office-2008-fix/ (though at least they acknowledge the problem, and are looking at a fix) iT -- Ivan Trundle http://itrundle.com ivan at itrundle.com ph: +61 (0)418 244 259 fx: +61 (0)2 6286 8742 skype: callto://ivanovitchk From cas at taz.net.au Sun Jan 27 13:33:56 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 13:33:56 +1100 Subject: [LINK] RFC: 'A Risk Assessment Framework for Mobile Payments' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080127023356.GD6828@taz.net.au> On Sat, Jan 26, 2008 at 03:54:38PM +1100, Roger Clarke wrote: > Any thoughts, corrections, pointers, references much appreciated! > > > A Risk Assessment Framework for Mobile Payments > http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/EC/MP-RAF.html > > Progress in Mobile Commerce is heavily dependent upon effective and > reliable payment mechanisms. Security concerns loom as a major impediment > to widespread and rapid adoption, and there is accordingly an urgent need > for a framework within which security issues in mobile commerce can be > evaluated. This paper presents such a framework and reflects lessons from > prior payment mechanisms. It provides insights into the use of the > framework by performing a test application. Implications for policy, > practice and research are drawn. my only thought is that i hope this kind of thing isn't done via some behind-closed-doors deal between mobile phone manufacturers, telcos, and retailers so that it's automatically enabled for anyone who has a compatible phone. i don't *EVER* want to buy things or have fees charged to my phone bill just because my mobile phone is within range. not under any circumstances. i want every transaction involving me to require specific positive action on my part. my bet, though, is that that is exactly how it will be introduced. and it will be touted as a convenience feature (and most idiot consumers will believe that's a Good Thing because the nice smiling suit tells them it is). and opting out will be difficult and subject to bureaucratic delays and "accidental" re-enabling every so often. craig -- craig sanders In the future, there will be fewer but better Russians. -- Joseph Stalin From link at todd.inoz.com Sun Jan 27 14:42:17 2008 From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 14:42:17 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Win SteadyState In-Reply-To: <479B8F51.6030602@lannet.com.au> References: <20080126134243.F0BB88B6@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> <479B8F51.6030602@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <200801270345.m0R3j8Pi029943@ah.net> More concerned about all the "Make the Internet safe by installing software so you can go to the pub and come home and reset the computer back to the way it was before you left. It's all very strange to me to see all this safety being sprouted. Children don't get injured or hurt when malware or trojans are installed cause they clicked on a link in an email Only person hurt is the parent when they get their bill for the next month with massive charges or 190 dialer deamons. Better parental supervision is the key, not software. No amount of software will EVER replace a proper parents supervision. The safest (huh?) way to protect children from nastie on the Internet is NOT to let them connect! Anyway mine are too busy marauding in the bush to worry about computers and TV :) At 06:51 27/01/2008, Howard Lowndes wrote: >...and just how many of the Joe Lusers out there >do you think would even understand what this is about... > >stephen at melbpc.org.au wrote: >>Hi all, >> >>>it would take an expert eye to avoid installing [malware] by mistake, >>>since *system level software* can be installed on Windows XP without >>>changing your access permissions: you *are* the admin in WinXP. >> >>Windows SteadyState helps protect your family, and your family computer >>Windows SteadyState is a (free) download for >>Windows XP that can help protect your family >>from inappropriate Web content and contact on the Web. >> Windows SteadyState also protects your >> computer settings from unwelcome changes by your children. >>You can download SteadyState at no charge to >>people using genuine Microsoft Windows XP. >>Windows SteadyState can return your family >>computer and hard disk to the condition it was >>before your children changed it. You just >>restart your computer. (Note: Windows >>SteadyState is for Windows XP only. Similar >>features, called Windows Vista Parental >>Controls, are built in to Windows Vista.) >>* Restrict access to programs and settings >>If you're a parent, you can use Windows >>SteadyState User Settings to customize the >>family computer and help make it safer and >>easier for you and your children to use. >>For example, to help ensure your children >>don???t use the Internet without your >>knowledge, you can create a user profile and >>restrict their access to Internet Explorer, >>Windows Messenger, and other programs on the family computer. >>If you don't want your children to change >>settings on the computer, you can simply >>restrict their access to Windows management features such as the Control Panel. >>With Windows SteadyState, you can create >>multiple user profiles and set a different level of restriction for each child. >>* Return your computer to its original state >>When children use the family computer, they >>might accidentally change important settings or >>download spyware, viruses, or other unwanted >>software. The Windows Disk Protection feature >>in Windows SteadyState helps you prevent these >>changes from causing any permanent damage to the hard disk. >>When you have Windows Disk Protection turned >>on, you can simply restart your computer to >>return Windows SteadyState to the condition it >>was in before the last user touched it. Windows >>SteadyState can clear all the changes made >>during the last user session, including >>installations of viruses or spyware, or deletions of critical system files. >>* Control your child's experience >>You can use Windows SteadyState to help control >>how your children interact with Windows, other >>programs, and the Web. For example, you can >>remove items from the Start menu for your >>child's user account, which simplifies your >>child's computing experience and can help >>protect your computer from unwanted changes. >>You can also choose which Web addresses your >>child can visit and block your child from >>opening specific programs through the Start menu. >>With Windows SteadyState, you can also enforce >>time limits on your child's sessions on the computer. >>* Using Windows SteadyState >>When you open Windows SteadyState for the first >>time, you see the SteadyState console, where >>you can choose which settings you want to change on your computer. >>To make the best use of Windows SteadyState >>features, it's a good idea to start out by >>adding a new user account for every person who >>will use the computer. You can adjust settings >>for each user account separately. >>After you've created user accounts, you can >>specify the restrictions you want to select for each user. >>You can download Windows SteadyState for your >>Windows XP computer at no charge. To download >>SteadyState and to find more information, >>including FAQs and discussion forums, visit the >>Microsoft Shared Access site. -- >>Cheers people >>Stephen Loosley >>Member, Victorian >>Institute of Teaching >> >>Message sent using MelbPC WebMail Server >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Link mailing list >>Link at mailman.anu.edu.au >>http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link > >-- >Howard. >LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people >When you want a computer system that works, just choose Linux; >When you want a computer system that works, just, choose Microsoft. >-- >Flatter government, not fatter government; abolish the Australian states. > >_______________________________________________ >Link mailing list >Link at mailman.anu.edu.au >http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link From matthew at sorbs.net Sun Jan 27 14:48:36 2008 From: matthew at sorbs.net (Matthew Sullivan) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 14:48:36 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: References: <491433.90720.qm@web50511.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1C478970-42F2-43E7-B5FD-923BE3C9EA83@holburn.net> <47985055.6080905@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <479BFF14.70609@sorbs.net> Kim Holburn wrote: > On 2008/Jan/24, at 9:46 AM, Rick Welykochy wrote: > >> Remind me again, how many Mac or Linux zombies are there out in the >> wild? > > And that's the critical thing isn't it. You can rabbit on about > number of vulnerabilities but in the end you have thousands of viruses > and trojans actually out there on windows and not on linux or the > Mac. And most people running Linux and Macs don't even have > anti-virus software. > > Part of the problem of Windows zombies are precisely because there are > so many pirated copies and really old versions out there and now MS is > trying to refuse to update and patch them. You could say that a large > part of the zombie problem comes directly as a result of the licensing > policies of Microsoft. I'd disagree with that, M$ is trying to force people into upgrading (and paying more $$$) by not patching older OS's, that is the problem with Microsoft and Windows. Patches for Linux kernel 2.0.x don't happen any more... I can't get my Mandrake 8 box (that just died last week as it happens) patched to the latest versions of everything (and no, you can't just patch it!). My Mac is getting patched pretty much automatically, but I wonder how long before I am forced to upgrade to the next OSX or not get patched? (and I know I'll have to pay or pirate for the upgrade). On a lighter note, I have a substantial number of machines at home, and the funny thing is only 2 of my machines have more room than the 40G required for Vista... This Mac, and a Sun Enterprise 2500 with 400G of FCAL Drives...which of course will not run vista anyhow. Even my 'games machine' doesn't have the drive space with a 40G drive as it's primary. Regards, Mat From brd at iimetro.com.au Sun Jan 27 21:23:13 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 21:23:13 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Microchips Everywhere: a Future Vision Message-ID: <479C5B91.3040507@iimetro.com.au> Microchips Everywhere: a Future Vision By Todd Lewan The Associated Press Saturday, January 26, 2008; 12:16 PM http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/26/AR2008012601126-pf.html -- Here's a vision of the not-so-distant future: -> Microchips with antennas will be embedded in virtually everything you buy, wear, drive and read, allowing retailers and law enforcement to track consumer items - and, by extension, consumers - wherever they go, from a distance. -> A seamless, global network of electronic "sniffers" will scan radio tags in myriad public settings, identifying people and their tastes instantly so that customized ads, "live spam," may be beamed at them. -> In "Smart Homes," sensors built into walls, floors and appliances will inventory possessions, record eating habits, monitor medicine cabinets - all the while, silently reporting data to marketers eager for a peek into the occupants' private lives. Science fiction? In truth, much of the radio frequency identification technology that enables objects and people to be tagged and tracked wirelessly already exists - and new and potentially intrusive uses of it are being patented, perfected and deployed. Some of the world's largest corporations are vested in the success of RFID technology, which couples highly miniaturized computers with radio antennas to broadcast information about sales and buyers to company databases. Already, microchips are turning up in some computer printers, car keys and tires, on shampoo bottles and department store clothing tags. They're also in library books and "contactless" payment cards (such as American Express' "Blue" and ExxonMobil's "Speedpass.") Companies say the RFID tags improve supply-chain efficiency, cut theft, and guarantee that brand-name products are authentic, not counterfeit. At a store, RFID doorways could scan your purchases automatically as you leave, eliminating tedious checkouts. At home, convenience is a selling point: RFID-enabled refrigerators could warn about expired milk, generate weekly shopping lists, even send signals to your interactive TV, so that you see "personalized" commercials for foods you have a history of buying. Sniffers in your microwave might read a chip-equipped TV dinner and cook it without instruction. "We've seen so many different uses of the technology," says Dan Mullen, president of AIM Global, a national association of data collection businesses, including RFID, "and we're probably still just scratching the surface in terms of places RFID can be used." The problem, critics say, is that microchipped products might very well do a whole lot more. With tags in so many objects, relaying information to databases that can be linked to credit and bank cards, almost no aspect of life may soon be safe from the prying eyes of corporations and governments, says Mark Rasch, former head of the computer-crime unit of the U.S. Justice Department. By placing sniffers in strategic areas, companies can invisibly "rifle through people's pockets, purses, suitcases, briefcases, luggage - and possibly their kitchens and bedrooms - anytime of the day or night," says Rasch, now managing director of technology at FTI Consulting Inc., a Baltimore-based company. In an RFID world, "You've got the possibility of unauthorized people learning stuff about who you are, what you've bought, how and where you've bought it ... It's like saying, 'Well, who wants to look through my medicine cabinet?'" He imagines a time when anyone from police to identity thieves to stalkers might scan locked car trunks, garages or home offices from a distance. "Think of it as a high-tech form of Dumpster diving," says Rasch, who's also concerned about data gathered by "spy" appliances in the home. "It's going to be used in unintended ways by third parties - not just the government, but private investigators, marketers, lawyers building a case against you ..." Presently, the radio tag most commercialized in America is the so-called "passive" emitter, meaning it has no internal power supply. Only when a reader powers these tags with a squirt of electrons do they broadcast their signal, indiscriminately, within a range of a few inches to 20 feet. Not as common, but increasing in use, are "active" tags, which have internal batteries and can transmit signals, continuously, as far as low-orbiting satellites. Active tags pay tolls as motorists to zip through tollgates; they also track wildlife, such as sea lions. Retailers and manufacturers want to use passive tags to replace the bar code, for tracking inventory. These radio tags transmit Electronic Product Codes, number strings that allow trillons of objects to be uniquely identified. Some transmit specifics about the item, such as price, though not the name of the buyer. However, "once a tagged item is associated with a particular individual, personally identifiable information can be obtained and then aggregated to develop a profile," the U.S. Government Accountability Office concluded in a 2005 report on RFID. Federal agencies and law enforcement already buy information about individuals from commercial data brokers, companies that compile computer dossiers on millions of individuals from public records, credit applications and many other sources, then offer summaries for sale. These brokers, unlike credit bureaus, aren't subject to provisions of the Fair Credit Reporting Act of 1970, which gives consumers the right to correct errors and block access to their personal records. That, and the ever-increasing volume of data collected on consumers, is worrisome, says Mike Hrabik, chief technology officer at Solutionary, a computer-security firm in Bethesda, Md. "Are companies using that information incorrectly, and are they giving it out inappropriately? I'm sure that's happening. Should we be concerned? Yes." Even some industry proponents recognize risks. Elliott Maxwell, a research fellow at Pennsylvania State University who serves as a policy adviser to EPCglobal, the industry's standard-setting group, says data broadcast by microchips can easily be intercepted, and misused, by high-tech thieves. As RFID goes mainstream and the range of readers increases, it will be "difficult to know who is gathering what data, who has access to it, what is being done with it, and who should be held responsible for it," Maxwell wrote in RFID Journal, an industry publication. The recent growth of the RFID industry has been staggering: From 1955 to 2005, cumulative sales of radio tags totaled 2.4 billion; last year alone, 2.24 billion tags were sold worldwide, and analysts project that by 2017 cumulative sales will top 1 trillion - generating more than $25 billion in annual revenues for the industry. Heady forecasts like these energize chip proponents, who insist that RFID will result in enormous savings for businesses. Each year, retailers lose $57 billion from administrative failures, supplier fraud and employee theft, according to a recent survey of 820 retailers by Checkpoint Systems, an RFID manufacturer that specializes in store security devices. Privacy concerns, some RFID supporters say, are overblown. One, Mark Roberti, editor of RFID Journal, says the notion that businesses would conspire to create high-resolution portraits of people is "simply silly." Corporations know Americans are sensitive about their privacy, he says, and are careful not to alienate consumers by violating it. Besides, "All companies keep their customer data close to the vest ... There's absolutely no value in sharing it. Zero." Industry officials, too, insist that addressing privacy concerns is paramount. As American Express spokeswoman Judy Tenzer says, "Security and privacy are a top priority for American Express in everything we do." But industry documents suggest a different line of thinking, privacy experts say. A 2005 patent application by American Express itself describes how RFID-embedded objects carried by shoppers could emit "identification signals" when queried by electronic "consumer trackers." The system could identify people, record their movements, and send them video ads that might offer "incentives" or "even the emission of a scent." RFID readers could be placed in public venues, including "a common area of a school, shopping center, bus station or other place of public accommodation," according to the application, which is still pending - and which is not alone. In 2006, IBM received patent approval for an invention it called, "Identification and tracking of persons using RFID-tagged items." One stated purpose: To collect information about people that could be "used to monitor the movement of the person through the store or other areas." Once somebody enters a store, a sniffer "scans all identifiable RFID tags carried on the person," and correlates the tag information with sales records to determine the individual's "exact identity." A device known as a "person tracking unit" then assigns a tracking number to the shopper "to monitor the movement of the person through the store or other areas." But as the patent makes clear, IBM's invention could work in other public places, "such as shopping malls, airports, train stations, bus stations, elevators, trains, airplanes, restrooms, sports arenas, libraries, theaters, museums, etc." (RFID could even help "follow a particular crime suspect through public areas.") Another patent, obtained in 2003 by NCR Corp., details how camouflaged sensors and cameras would record customers' wanderings through a store, film their facial expressions at displays, and time - to the second - how long shoppers hold and study items. Why? Such monitoring "allows one to draw valuable inferences about the behavior of large numbers of shoppers," the patent states. Then there's a 2001 patent application by Procter & Gamble, "Systems and methods for tracking consumers in a store environment." This one lays out an idea to use heat sensors to track and record "where a consumer is looking, i.e., which way she is facing, whether she is bending over or crouching down to look at a lower shelf." The system could space sensors 8 feet apart, in ceilings, floors, shelving and displays, so they could capture signals transmitted every 1.5 seconds by microchipped shopping carts. The documents "raise the hair on the back of your neck," says Liz McIntyre, co-author of "Spychips," a book that is critical of the industry. "The industry has long promised it would never use this technology to track people. But these patent records clearly suggest otherwise." Corporations take issue with that, saying that patent filings shouldn't be used to predict a company's actions. "We file thousands of patents every year, which are designed to protect concepts or ideas," Paul Fox, a spokesman for Procter & Gamble, says. "The reality is that many of those ideas and concepts never see the light of day." And what of his company's 2001 patent application? "I'm not aware of any plans to use that," Fox says. Sandy Hughes, P&G's global privacy executive, adds that Procter & Gamble has no intention of using any technologies - RFID or otherwise - to track individuals. The idea of the 2001 filing, she says, is to monitor how groups of people react to store displays, "not individual consumers." NCR and American Express echoed those statements. IBM declined to comment for this story. "Not every element in a patent filing is necessarily something we would pursue....," says Tenzer, the American Express spokeswoman. "Under no circumstances would we use this technology without a customer's permission." McIntyre has her doubts. In the marketing world of today, she says, "data on individual consumers is gold, and the only thing preventing these companies from abusing technologies like RFID to get at that gold is public scrutiny." RFID dates to World War II, when Britain put transponders in Allied aircraft to help radar crews distinguish them from German fighters. In the 1970s, the U.S. government tagged trucks entering and leaving secure facilities such as the Los Alamos National Laboratory, and a decade later, they were used to track livestock and railroad cars. In 2003, the U.S. Department of Defense and Wal-Mart gave RFID a mammoth push, mandating that suppliers radio tag all crates and cartons. To that point, the cost of tags had simply been too high to make tagging pallets - let alone individual items - viable. In 1999, passive tags cost nearly $2 apiece. Since then, rising demand and production of microchips - along with technological advances - have driven tag prices down to a range of 7 to 15 cents. At that price, the technology is "well-suited at a case and pallet level," says Mullen, of the industry group AIM Global. John Simley, a spokesman for Wal-Mart, says tracking products in real-time helps ensure product freshness and lowers the chances that items will be out of stock. By reducing loss and waste in the supply chain, RFID "allows us to keep our prices that much lower." Katherine Albrecht, founder of CASPIAN, an anti-RFID group, says, "Nobody cares about radio tags on crates and pallets. But if we don't keep RFID off of individual consumer items, our stores will one day turn into retail 'zoos' where the customer is always on exhibit." So, how long will it be before you find an RFID tag in your underwear? The industry isn't saying, but some analysts speculate that within a decade tag costs may dip below a penny, the threshold at which nearly everything could be chipped. To businesses slammed by counterfeiters - pharmaceuticals, for one - that's not a bad thing. Sales of fake drugs cost drug makers an estimated $46 billion a year. In 2004, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration recommended that RFID be incorporated throughout the supply chain as a way of making sure consumers get authentic drugs. In the United States, Pfizer has already begun chipping all 30- and 100-count bottles of Viagra, one of the most counterfeited drugs. Chips could be embedded in other controlled or potentially dangerous items such as firearms and explosives, to make them easier to track. This was mentioned in IBM's patent documents. Still, the idea that tiny radio chips might be in their socks and shoes doesn't sit well with Americans. At least, that's what Fleishman-Hillard Inc., a public-relations firm in St. Louis, found in 2001 when it surveyed 317 consumers for the industry. Seventy-eight percent of those queried reacted negatively to RFID when privacy was raised. "More than half claimed to be extremely or very concerned," the report said, noting that the term "Big Brother" was "used in 15 separate cases to describe the technology." It also found that people bridled at the idea of having "Smart Tags" in their homes. One surveyed person remarked: "Where money is to be made the privacy of the individual will be compromised." In 2002, Fleishman-Hillard produced another report for the industry that counseled RFID makers to "convey (the) inevitability of technology," and to develop a plan to "neutralize the opposition," by adopting friendlier names for radio tags such as "Bar Code II" and "Green Tag." And in a 2003 report, Helen Duce, the industry's trade group director in Europe, wrote that "the lack of clear benefits to consumers could present a problem in the 'real world,'" particularly if privacy issues were stirred by "negative press coverage." (Though the reports were marked "Confidential," they were later found archived on an industry trade group's Web site.) The Duce report's recommendations: Tell consumers that RFID is regulated, that RFID is just a new and improved bar code, and that retailers will announce when an item is radio tagged, and deactivate the tags at check-out upon a customer's request. Actually, in the United States, RFID is not federally regulated. And while bar codes identify product categories, radio tags carry unique serial numbers that - when purchased with a credit card, frequent shopper card or contactless card - can be linked to specific shoppers. And, unlike bar codes, RFID tags can be read through almost anything except metal and water, without the holder's knowledge. EPCglobal, the industry's standard-setting body, has issued public policy guidelines that call for retailers to put a thumbnail-sized logo - "EPC," for Electronic Product Code - on all radio tagged packaging. The group also suggests that merchants notify shoppers that RFID tags can be removed, discarded or disabled. Critics say the guidelines are voluntary, vague and don't penalize violators. They want federal and state oversight - something the industry has vigorously opposed - particularly after two RFID manufacturers, Checkpoint Systems and Sensormatic, announced last year that they are marketing tags designed to be embedded in such items as shoes. Marc Rotenberg, executive director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, says, "I don't think there's any basis ... for consumers to have to think that their clothing is tracking them." -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Mon Jan 28 08:08:51 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 08:08:51 +1100 Subject: [LINK] WIMAX said to be operational in Yorke Peninsula Message-ID: [Okay, it's company PR rather than a considered report by a third party, but it does appear that Internode has some cred. to trade off.] Internode rolls out 'real world' WiMAX in regional Australia 25-01-2008 http://www.internode.on.net/news/2008/01/71.php Internode's WiMAX network on the Yorke Peninsula is delivering real-world wireless broadband speeds as fast as six megabits per second up to 30km from its base stations. Internode has started connecting customers to its high speed national network, becoming the first Australian broadband company to deliver a region-wide, wireless broadband service using WiMAX. Internode has several installation teams working on the Yorke Peninsula, west of Adelaide, to connect more than 200 people who have ordered broadband through the Federal Government's Australian Broadband Guarantee (ABG) program. Many of these people live too far from a telephone exchange to get ADSL-based broadband. Through a network of 10 WiMAX base stations using the 3.4 gigahertz licensed spectrum, Internode is achieving transmission speeds as fast as six megabits per second at distances as far as 30km from the tower, as long as good line of sight is available. Internode's first commercial WiMAX customer, farmer Ted Buttfield, who was connected to the Internode network on Monday, January 21, said Internode's WiMAX broadband service was terrific. "Compared to the dial-up service we've had until now, it is wonderful," he said. "We use the Internet for many things including Internet banking, which was painful over a dial-up connection. My wife used to get very frustrated with the length of time it took to get through the security mode. Even something simple, like downloading Norton upgrades, could take an hour and a half, with dropouts. Last night, it took us only minutes. ["something simple, like downloading Norton upgrades"?? Is this man looking for sponsorship or what??] "One thing we are looking forward to is using Internode's NodePhone service. We have a son who lives in Melbourne, so I reckon that will save us a few dollars in telephone calls. "Internode has been extremely helpful. I have nothing but praise for them as they've bent over backwards for us. I think a lot of people here are putting their hands up for broadband. If you go to the pub, or meetings of the Progress Association, broadband is a topic of conversation at every meeting." Internode is using WiMAX wireless broadband technology throughout the Yorke Peninsula to connect customers who are beyond the reach of "wired" ADSL services, which are limited by telephone line quality and distance from the telephone exchange. Internode managing director Simon Hackett said Internode's experience demonstrated that WiMAX worked perfectly using licensed spectrum. "With WiMAX equipment installed on 10 of our towers, we are providing virtually 100 per cent coverage of the Yorke Peninsula," he said. "With good line of sight, we are achieving speeds as fast as six megs per second at distances up to 30km from the base station. This is not a theoretical result - it's a real world outcome. All of our base station equipment is now installed, so it's just a matter of setting up equipment at our customers' premises. We have two surveyors and four installation teams on the road to make sure we can get the equipment deployed as quickly as possible. "For people on the Yorke Peninsula, the beauty is that they pay no more than Internode customers living in metropolitan areas because of the Australian Broadband Guarantee subsidy." Internode has already taken delivery of more than 150 Airspan WiMAX CPE (Customer Premises Equipment) radios, which use the latest Rosedale chips from Intel. Each device is mounted on a mast at the customer's site, delivering line-of-site connectivity to an Internode base station. Internode surveyors use mobile WiMAX equipment at the customer site to identify the optimal configuration, including the necessary radio height, get achieve the required broadband performance. This customised configuration is then assembled offsite, so it can be quickly and easily installed at the customer's premises, with minimal adjustment. Internode is also considering the expansion of its new WiMAX network into the Coorong region, south east of Adelaide, to enhance its existing pre-WiMAX wireless broadband network in that area. Internode already holds spectrum licenses for WiMAX deployment in the Coorong region. The Coorong and Yorke Peninsula network projects were strongly backed by the Coorong District Council and District Council of Yorke Peninsula and underpinned by the SA State Government's Broadband Development Fund. -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From stephen at melbpc.org.au Mon Jan 28 08:15:42 2008 From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen at melbpc.org.au) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 21:15:42 GMT Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista Message-ID: <20080127211542.DEB2416669@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> Matthew writes: > I have a substantial number of machines at home, and the funny thing > is only 2 of my machines have more room than the 40G required for Vista Ditto. Indeed, this sweet 486 Win98 machine has no firewall or antivirus at all. And I fired up its modem and browser (Netscape 4.5 internal start page) two hours ago: > Connected at 50,000 bps > Duration 02:14.30 > Butes received: 3,104 bytes > Bytes sent: 1,540 bytes Two hours? Win98? No Proxy or Firewall? No Antivirus? ... 1,540 Bytes! Two online-virus-checkers complain it's old, but assert that it's clean. Where are all the malicious Zombies one gets instantly one goes online? Ahh .. after 10 years of use, I demand a share of bottom-feeding code! Mind, I wouldn't/couldn't bank etc with it, however, the point remains. Anyone claim as little net-upload/time? Wonder what Vista finds necessary. Cheers, people Stephen Loosley Victoria, Australia From stil at stilgherrian.com Mon Jan 28 08:18:52 2008 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 08:18:52 +1100 Subject: [LINK] WIMAX said to be operational in Yorke Peninsula In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 28/1/08 8:08 AM, "Roger Clarke" wrote: > Internode's WiMAX network on the Yorke Peninsula is delivering > real-world wireless broadband speeds as fast as six megabits per > second up to 30km from its base stations. As someone greater than me once pointed out, the numbers "as fast as" and "up to" also include the number zero. That said, Internode has an excellent record of rolling up its sleeves and building real, well-engineered networks, as opposed to announcing plans and whinging at the government. I should point out, though, that Yorke Peninsula is sparely populated and flat as a pancake, so a relatively easy challenge for WiMax. Stil Disclosure: Being from South Australia originally, I'm bound to be biased towards the local success story, plus I vaguely knew people connected with the founding of Internode back when we connected to the Internet through hand-rolled SLIP connections and 2400 baud modems. -- Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/ Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia mobile +61 407 623 600 fax +61 2 9516 5630 ABN 25 231 641 421 From kim.holburn at gmail.com Mon Jan 28 08:52:44 2008 From: kim.holburn at gmail.com (Kim Holburn) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 22:52:44 +0100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <20080127211542.DEB2416669@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> References: <20080127211542.DEB2416669@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <69173548-B6C0-4B4F-A191-7678E059322E@gmail.com> Word is that the old viruses, worms and trojans are not so in at the moment. The new black is injection of trojans from either malicious or compromised web-sites. On 2008/Jan/27, at 9:15 PM, stephen at melbpc.org.au wrote: > Matthew writes: > >> I have a substantial number of machines at home, and the funny thing >> is only 2 of my machines have more room than the 40G required for >> Vista > > Ditto. Indeed, this sweet 486 Win98 machine has no firewall or > antivirus > at all. And I fired up its modem and browser (Netscape 4.5 internal > start > page) two hours ago: > >> Connected at 50,000 bps >> Duration 02:14.30 >> Butes received: 3,104 bytes >> Bytes sent: 1,540 bytes > > Two hours? Win98? No Proxy or Firewall? No Antivirus? ... 1,540 Bytes! > > Two online-virus-checkers complain it's old, but assert that it's > clean. > > Where are all the malicious Zombies one gets instantly one goes > online? > > Ahh .. after 10 years of use, I demand a share of bottom-feeding code! > > Mind, I wouldn't/couldn't bank etc with it, however, the point > remains. > > Anyone claim as little net-upload/time? Wonder what Vista finds > necessary. > > Cheers, people > Stephen Loosley > Victoria, Australia > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link at mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link -- Kim Holburn IT Network & Security Consultant Ph: +39 06 855 4294 M: +39 3494957443 mailto:kim at holburn.net aim://kimholburn skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny. -- Lloyd Biggle, Jr. Analog, Apr 1961 From brd at iimetro.com.au Mon Jan 28 09:52:07 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:52:07 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Bank turns London man into RFID-enabled guinea pig Message-ID: <479D0B17.8010802@iimetro.com.au> Bank turns London man into RFID-enabled guinea pig Halifax customer bites back By John Leyden Sunday 27th January 2008 07:02 GMT The Register http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/01/27/paywave/ The Halifax bank is enrolling unsuspecting customers in trials of a new generation of RFID-enabled bank cards, and trying to keep them in the program even if they have mis-givings about the wave and pay technology. PayWave allows punters to debit their account without having to enter a PIN or sign for goods valued at less than ?10. The RFID-based technology, backed by Visa, is being rolled out by UK banks Barclays and Halifax, as well as others on the continent. Mastercard is backing a similar technology called PayPass. Halifax is introducing the technology in London to a number of punters, including Reg reader Pete. Pete, a current account holder at Halifax, was among those issued with a new card. He didn't want to use the unsolicited technology and his attempts to receive an alternative card, though ultimately successful, proved frustrating. "I have to input my PIN the very first time I use this 'Paywave' card, but after that it is automatically authorised to work for all transactions under ?10," Pete explained. "I put the new card straight in the bin - in fact, I shredded it and put it in several different bins. I don't want this highly insecure-sounding facility, and I never use a debit card for retail transactions anyway." Pete thought no more of the card assuming his old plastic, which had months left to run, would continue to be useable. But when he went to his local bank in early December to get some cash the ATM refused the transaction and retained his card. Bank staff, having verified Pete's identity, were not immediately able to work out why the card had been retained. They gave him back his card but, after other attempts to use his card failed, he was faced with the chore of getting his card replaced. After calling Halifax's helpline, Pete was told that the (unsolicited) issue of the contactless card had automatically cancelled his original card, something not mentioned in the paperwork that came with the old card, according to Pete. "Halifax are cancelling peoples' bank cards without permission and without even telling them, and forcing them to use these new cards, which as far as I know nobody has asked for," Pete told El Reg "Who wants these things? Not me. And is there no limit to the level of insecurity they want to introduce to their cards? I guess not, so long as the cardholder can be stuck with the liability," he added. A replacement card also came with the unwanted contactless card technology. Curiously, Pete's wife didn't get a contactless card even though she is joint holder of the same Halifax account. Ultimately, after complaining long and loud, Pete has now received a non-Paywave bank card from Halifax. The incident has left him far from satisfied. Halifax turned down Pete's request for compensation. Halifax declined to speak about individual cases, but confirmed it was conducting a trial of the technology across London, prior to a nationwide rollout. A spokesman for banking association APACS said whether customers had the ability to refuse new technologies was "card issuer dependant". Barclays is also introducing the technology in the UK. A developer familiar with Barclays plans said it, like Halifax, is rolling out the technology in London in advance of the rest of the country, both as a test-bed for the technology and because Londoners are more used to using RFID-enabled technology in the form of Oyster travel cards. Barclays has created a triple-function card (called OnePulse ) that combines a traditional credit card with PayWave and also with Oyster on-board as a separate application. "Barclays and a couple of other banks were bidding to effectively take over Oyster and subsume it into a larger payment scheme using the less-proprietary Visa and Mastercard technology, but these negotiations fell apart," he added. Our source noted that the maximum transaction value for contactless purchases is typically ?10, which mitigates the increased risk of using the cards. "Major customer education issues still need to be overcome before everyone is happy to use this as a cash-replacement technology, which is what the banks and retailers want," he said. "It's certainly a very interesting privacy issue if banks are including the contactless chips in 'standard' credit cards without asking, especially since the transactions are effectively unsecured because no PIN is needed. "On the privacy issue, there is likely to be a growing number of stories and attempts at hacking and skimming contactless cards, once they are out in the wild, and whether or not the risks to consumers are real, they need to understand the issues and risks." Our source added that the situation created a market for niche security firms to develop products that protect contactless-enabled cards from "uninvited attempts to communicate with them", in response to security concerns about the possible misuse of the technology to perpetrate fraud. Whether the likes of Pete will be reassured by extra security controls on a type of card they have had forced on them in the fist place remains to be seen. -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From rick at praxis.com.au Mon Jan 28 13:04:39 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 13:04:39 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <20080127211542.DEB2416669@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> References: <20080127211542.DEB2416669@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <479D3837.1020700@praxis.com.au> stephen at melbpc.org.au wrote: > Where are all the malicious Zombies one gets instantly one goes online? > Ahh .. after 10 years of use, I demand a share of bottom-feeding code! I don't really know meself. I googled for "demonstration of windows activex exploit" which turned up thousands of hits. You may want to read up on this one: http://www.edensoft.com/exploit.html It demonstrates an activex exploit harmlessly by launching calc.exe on your machine. The link to the exploit demonstration page is here: http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/ I don't run Winders so I cannot test this. You may wish to try and let the list know. The writeup mentions that it does work with IE 5.5 on Win98. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Any sufficiently advanced technology seems like magic. -- Arthur C. Namesake From brd at iimetro.com.au Mon Jan 28 14:56:33 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:56:33 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <479D3837.1020700@praxis.com.au> References: <20080127211542.DEB2416669@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> <479D3837.1020700@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <479D5271.6010907@iimetro.com.au> Rick Welykochy wrote: > The link to the exploit demonstration page is here: > > http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/ > > I don't run Winders so I cannot test this. You may wish to try and > let the list know. The writeup mentions that it does work with > IE 5.5 on Win98. > IE 7 on Vista with AVG antivirus - nothing happens. NS 7.1 on Vista with AVG antivirus - nothing happens. IE 6 on WinXP with Symantic antivirus, the antivirus picks it up. NS 7.1 on WinXP with Symantic antivirus - nothing happens. IE 6 on Win98 with AVG antivirus - nothing happens. IE 5 on Win98 with Norton Antivirus v 5.0 - nothing happens. and, just for fun... Firefox 2.0 on Ubuntu 7.10 no antivirus - nothing happens. ["Nothing happens" means that the expected browser information screen appears, but calc.exe doesn't run, neither does the antivirus kick in] -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From rick at praxis.com.au Mon Jan 28 15:28:55 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:28:55 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <479D5271.6010907@iimetro.com.au> References: <20080127211542.DEB2416669@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> <479D3837.1020700@praxis.com.au> <479D5271.6010907@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <479D5A07.60002@praxis.com.au> Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > Rick Welykochy wrote: > >> The link to the exploit demonstration page is here: >> >> http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/ >> >> I don't run Winders so I cannot test this. You may wish to try and >> let the list know. The writeup mentions that it does work with >> IE 5.5 on Win98. > > IE 7 on Vista with AVG antivirus - nothing happens. > NS 7.1 on Vista with AVG antivirus - nothing happens. > > IE 6 on WinXP with Symantic antivirus, the antivirus picks it up. > NS 7.1 on WinXP with Symantic antivirus - nothing happens. > > IE 6 on Win98 with AVG antivirus - nothing happens. > > IE 5 on Win98 with Norton Antivirus v 5.0 - nothing happens. > > and, just for fun... > Firefox 2.0 on Ubuntu 7.10 no antivirus - nothing happens. Out of curiosity, have you changed any of the default preferences in IE? Perhaps MS has wized up and disabled activex by default?! cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Any sufficiently advanced technology seems like magic. -- Arthur C. Namesake From brd at iimetro.com.au Mon Jan 28 17:09:00 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:09:00 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <479D5A07.60002@praxis.com.au> References: <20080127211542.DEB2416669@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> <479D3837.1020700@praxis.com.au> <479D5271.6010907@iimetro.com.au> <479D5A07.60002@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <479D717C.8010500@iimetro.com.au> Rick Welykochy wrote: > Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > >> Rick Welykochy wrote: >> >>> The link to the exploit demonstration page is here: >>> >>> http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/ >>> >>> I don't run Winders so I cannot test this. You may wish to try and >>> let the list know. The writeup mentions that it does work with >>> IE 5.5 on Win98. >> >> >> IE 7 on Vista with AVG antivirus - nothing happens. >> NS 7.1 on Vista with AVG antivirus - nothing happens. >> >> IE 6 on WinXP with Symantic antivirus, the antivirus picks it up. >> NS 7.1 on WinXP with Symantic antivirus - nothing happens. >> >> IE 6 on Win98 with AVG antivirus - nothing happens. >> >> IE 5 on Win98 with Norton Antivirus v 5.0 - nothing happens. >> >> and, just for fun... >> Firefox 2.0 on Ubuntu 7.10 no antivirus - nothing happens. > > > Out of curiosity, have you changed any of the default preferences > in IE? > > Perhaps MS has wized up and disabled activex by default?! Probably, I can't remember exactly. Although I don't go overboard with locking down my machines. For example, the my IE5/Win98 will run ActiveX but only after prompting, which it didn't in the test. In the case of IE7/Vista, I've got it set at default for Medium High Security, so it prompts before it downloads ActiveX, which it didn't in the test. There are 10 different settings for ActiveX on IE7/Vista some of which are turned on by default eg "Run ActiveX controls and plug ins" - set at Enable and some set to prompt eg "Download Signed ActiveX Controls" I think it would be untrue to say that MS has disabled ActiveX by default, they have made users a bit more aware of some of the settings. -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Mon Jan 28 18:06:11 2008 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 18:06:11 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Are PC users diluting the IQ of the Mac community? Message-ID: <0957E77D-6B17-45A0-9C36-A44627C3A4F4@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Are PC users diluting the IQ of the Mac community? Posted by Liam Tung @ 15:07 According to one security vendor, Mac users are at a crossroads this year: if they prove to be as gullible as PC users, they will invite more attention by malware distributors. At a time when spiraling malware threats have bombarded PC users, Mac users have been able to kick back and relax. 2007 saw 5.5 million viruses -- including variants -- on the hunt for vulnerable PCs, meanwhile threats to Mac users remained minuscule by comparison: two. Still, the emergence of that pair has prompted speculation that Mac users will likely be targeted more in the coming year. If that turns out to be the case, it begs the question: will they respond to these threats better than PC users have over the years? More at phone : 02 6241 7659 mobile: 04 3365 2400 -- ~| mailto: tony at Tony-Barry.emu.id.au -- \@ or tony.barry at alianet.alia.org.au -- _\\/\% http://tony-barry.emu.id.au GT3 ____(*)__(*)___ Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Restore From kim at holburn.net Mon Jan 28 22:10:34 2008 From: kim at holburn.net (Kim Holburn) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:10:34 +0100 Subject: [LINK] Google maps and your privacy Message-ID: Google maps and your privacy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPgV6-gnQaE Hey it's not Friday but this was funny.... Oh yeah and a bit scary too. -- Kim Holburn IT Network & Security Consultant Ph: +39 06 855 4294 M: +39 3494957443 mailto:kim at holburn.net aim://kimholburn skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny. -- Lloyd Biggle, Jr. Analog, Apr 1961 From mgm-ns at tardis.net Mon Jan 28 23:43:30 2008 From: mgm-ns at tardis.net (Malcolm Miles) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 23:43:30 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Re: Windows XP versus Vista In-Reply-To: <479D5A07.60002@praxis.com.au> References: <20080127211542.DEB2416669@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> <479D3837.1020700@praxis.com.au> <479D5271.6010907@iimetro.com.au> <479D5A07.60002@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:28:55 +1100, you wrote: >Out of curiosity, have you changed any of the default preferences >in IE? It was patched 6 years ago so it is unlikely that many PCs would still be vulnerable. > >Perhaps MS has wized up and disabled activex by default?! The exploit doesn't use ActiveX. > >cheers >rickw -- Best wishes, Malcolm From stil at stilgherrian.com Tue Jan 29 08:47:13 2008 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 08:47:13 +1100 Subject: [LINK] "I don =?iso-8859-1?q?=B9?= t understand computers" is not an excuse! Message-ID: Gentler Linkers. I reckon that here in the 21st Century a business manager can't get away with "I don't understand computers" any more. IT and the Internet are a core component of running most businesses -- except maybe a shoe-shine stand -- and managers should be across this arena as much as they're across money or insurance or IR laws relating to their industry. So I've written an article aimed at small business owners to sketch out this idea. It's deliberately provocative, but it also includes a list of what managers should be across. Have I got it right? The kind of businesses I'm thinking of here are a small factory with 20 production staff and a back-office of 5, or a chain of half a dozen shoe stores, or a small PR firm with 3 or 4 staff. Obviously small businesses at the upper end of the range (50 to 100 staff) are likely to have a full-time IT person, so this article isn't aimed at them. Any comments or additions? Here on Link or there on my website, it's all good. Stil ... I don?t understand computers" is not an excuse If you own or manage a business that handles information (and which business doesn't?) then you must understand computers and the Internet. If you don't, you're incompetent. Yes, that's right, you heard me. Incompetent. There, I've said it. Now, with that out of the way, let me explain? I don't mean you need to know how computers work, or how to set them up, program them, maintain them or fix them when they break. You don't need to know how to connect a computer to the Internet, build a website or any of that stuff either. However you should know enough to make effective decisions about how they're used in your business. You should know how the leaders in your industry are using the technology. You should be aware of developments that might affect your plans. In short, you don't need to know the technology itself, but you do need to know its implications for your business... Read on at: http://stilgherrian.com/internet/managers_must_understand_computers/ -- Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/ Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia mobile +61 407 623 600 fax +61 2 9516 5630 ABN 25 231 641 421 From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Tue Jan 29 09:18:56 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 09:18:56 +1100 Subject: [LINK] OECD RFID document Message-ID: OECD (2008) 'RADIO FREQUENCY IDENTIFICATION (RFID):A FOCUS ON INFORMATION SECURITY AND PRIVACY' Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development, Paris, DSTI/ICCP/REG(2007)9/FINAL, 14 January 2008, at http://www.olis.oecd.org/olis/2007doc.nsf/LinkTo/NT00005A7A/$FILE/JT03238682.PDF It's a catalogue, fails to analyse particular applications and patterns of use, and hence lacks policy punch; but it may be a useful resource. -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Tue Jan 29 09:48:31 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 09:48:31 +1100 Subject: [LINK] "I don ' t understand computers" is not an excuse! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:47 +1100 29/1/08, Stilgherrian wrote: >I don't understand computers" is not an excuse >If you own or manage a business that handles information (and which business >doesn't?) then you must understand computers and the Internet. If you don't, >you're incompetent. Yes, that's right, you heard me. Incompetent. I know you want to keep it simple and to-the-point, but "here in the 21st Century" there's a problem with the word 'computer'. Sure, 'we' know what one is, and to some extent so does 'the public'; but the idea manifests itself very differently in different businesses. Desktops, portables, handhelds, phones, smartcards, RFID tags, and that's without getting into the embedded ones in photocopiers, fuel injection, etc. If micro and small businesspeople from 10 different sectors read the piece, will they interpret 'computer' in an appropriate way? If not, they may dismiss the piece as too superficial. -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From stil at stilgherrian.com Tue Jan 29 10:08:08 2008 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 10:08:08 +1100 Subject: [LINK] "I don ' t understand computers" is not an excuse! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 29/1/08 9:48 AM, "Roger Clarke" wrote: > At 8:47 +1100 29/1/08, Stilgherrian wrote: >> I don't understand computers" is not an excuse >> If you own or manage a business that handles information (and which business >> doesn't?) then you must understand computers and the Internet. If you don't, >> you're incompetent. Yes, that's right, you heard me. Incompetent. > > I know you want to keep it simple and to-the-point, but "here in the > 21st Century" there's a problem with the word 'computer'. > > Sure, 'we' know what one is, and to some extent so does 'the public'; > but the idea manifests itself very differently in different > businesses. > > Desktops, portables, handhelds, phones, smartcards, RFID tags, and > that's without getting into the embedded ones in photocopiers, fuel > injection, etc. Excellent point, Roger. Many (most?) small business people wouldn't realise that a phone is a computer now, and that for many applications it might be better to use Twitter or SMS or a custom web application on a small screen than lugging around a laptop. The article is intended to be one instalment in an engagement process with small business clients. Most small business don't really thinks about IT until something breaks, and in my experience most are only just capable of using email -- let alone being across the newer "Web 2.0" developments. However it IS important to start the dialog on the right note. One continual frustration is clients asking whether Tool X is "good" when they haven't first explained what it is that they want to achieve. A website commenter has added: Know the difference between shrinkwrap and custom-built software. Sometimes a task can be automated with an Excel spreadsheet or a copy of Quicken. Other times you need to hire programmers or buy software from someone who writes it for you. You need to be able to make a judgement as to when that's necessary, and have a good idea of how long you'd expect a software development project to take and how much you'll need to pay. It may be costly to get someone in to write the software to handle sales and ordering for your little shop selling hand-knitted Etruscan snoods, but if you try doing it in Excel you'll quickly fall in a heap forcing your entire business to fit into rows and columns, but buying a generic inventory program off the shelf won't help you deal with the tricky bits involved with the different grades of Carthaginian yak wool and their effect on knitting time. His example is a tad obscure, but he has a point. Stil -- Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/ Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia mobile +61 407 623 600 fax +61 2 9516 5630 ABN 25 231 641 421 From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Tue Jan 29 10:38:02 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 10:38:02 +1100 Subject: [LINK] "I don ' t understand computers" is not an excuse! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6hhge8$19jahm@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> At 10:08 AM 29/01/2008, Stilgherrian wrote: >One continual frustration is clients asking whether Tool X is "good" when >they haven't first explained what it is that they want to achieve. Abso-bloody-lutely! If they can't describe the problem they are trying to solve or the outcome they are wanting to achieve, there is a highest likelihood that what they buy won't do or solve what they really need done or solved. They just see that some competitor is using x and they want on the bandwagon or some flashy brochure has arrived in an official-looking envelope, maybe with a cover letter, from a vendor who needs to up that quarter's sales. And some won't appreciate the undisclosed extra costs: loss of sunk costs, retraining of staff, differences in maintenance agreements, etc etc. Tool don't come without strings. There are always strings. Unfortunately, the tool vendor is unlikely to expose the 'bad' news along with the 'you beaut' gotta have this marketing spin. good luck with the article, Stil. Jan Semi-finalist - Amazon Breakout Novelist Award 2008: The Truck - A baby-boomer nostalgia murder mystery http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00121WDVA - Read and rate now! Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Writing Lesson #54: Learn to love revision. Think of it as polishing the silver for guests. - JW, May, 2007 _ __________________ _ From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au Mon Jan 28 15:10:29 2008 From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:10:29 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Win SteadyState In-Reply-To: <20080126134243.F0BB88B6@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> References: <20080126134243.F0BB88B6@vscan42.melbpc.org.au> Message-ID: <20080128234642.D3C6712F16@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com> At 12:42 AM 27/01/2008, stephen at melbpc.org.au wrote: >... > >Windows SteadyState helps protect your family, and your family computer ... The Linux Zonbu computer comes with an online backup turned on by default. System files are copied to a remote server while you are using the computer . This is a problem if you are on a slow connection, and it backs up things it really doesn't need to (such as temporary files), but would be handy if something goes wrong. The user data, such as word processing files are separately stored in a web accessible online directory. This approach is not without problems, one of which is if the user knows when to use the backup. Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington at tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 http://www.tomw.net.au/ Adjunct Senior Lecturer, ANU From david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au Tue Jan 29 11:32:24 2008 From: david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au (David Boxall) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 11:32:24 +1100 Subject: [LINK] WIMAX said to be operational in Yorke Peninsula In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <479E7418.1020705@hunterlink.net.au> At 28/01/2008 8:08 AM Roger Clarke wrote: > [Okay, it's company PR rather than a considered report by a third > party, but it does appear that Internode has some cred. to trade off.] > > Internode rolls out 'real world' WiMAX in regional Australia > 25-01-2008 > http://www.internode.on.net/news/2008/01/71.php More on the same story: . Checking out OPEL's "likely" WiMAX coverage for my area: , two things strike me:- * the tiny areas covered by ADSL (of any form) and; * the WiMAX coverage areas are combinations of perfect circles. Apparently, obstructions are not expected to have any impact. Anyway, I'll wait with bated breath to find out whether: * I can get service and; * it's more reliable than satellite. My broadband fails every afternoon. I guess it's the sun, blinding the receiver (ipstar is ridiculously low in the sky to the Westnor'west). -- David Boxall | When a distinguished but elderly | scientist states that something is | possible, he is almost certainly | right. When he states that | something is impossible, he is | very probably wrong. --Arthur C. Clarke From russell.ashdown at ashdown.net.au Tue Jan 29 14:31:52 2008 From: russell.ashdown at ashdown.net.au (Russell Ashdown) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 13:31:52 +1000 Subject: [LINK] WIMAX said to be operational in Yorke Peninsula In-Reply-To: <479E7418.1020705@hunterlink.net.au> References: <479E7418.1020705@hunterlink.net.au> Message-ID: <479E9E28.4060800@ashdown.net.au> David Boxall wrote: > Checking out OPEL's "likely" WiMAX coverage for my area: > , two things > strike me:- > * the tiny areas covered by ADSL (of any form) and; > * the WiMAX coverage areas are combinations of perfect circles. > Apparently, obstructions are not expected to have any impact. They're "...using the 3.4 gigahertz licensed spectrum, Internode is achieving transmission speeds as fast as six megabits per second at distances as far as 30km from the tower, as long as good line of sight is available. GOOD LINE OF SIGHT equates pretty much to perfect circles. From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Wed Jan 30 07:05:19 2008 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 07:05:19 +1100 Subject: [LINK] =?iso-8859-1?q?Fwd=3A_MR_4/08=3A_Small_and_medium_enterpr?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ises_and_the_farming_sector_=91keen_adopters=92_of_communi?= =?iso-8859-1?q?cations_technology_=5BSEC=3DUNCLASSIFIED=5D?= References: <03103170012015657494016@subscribedmailings.com> Message-ID: Begin forwarded message: > From: "Australian Communications & Media Authority" > > Date: 29 January 2008 11:15:49 AM > To: > Subject: MR 4/08: Small and medium enterprises and the farming > sector ?keen adopters? of communications technology > [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] > Reply-To: media at acma.gov.au > > Research released today by the Australian Communications and Media > Authority shows that Australia?s small and medium enterprises > (SMEs) and the rural sector are reasonably connected online and on > the phone, with 92 per cent of SMEs and 74 per cent of farms having > an internet connection, and 93 per cent and 85 per cent > respectively reporting the use of a mobile phone. The full release > can be found at: http://www.acma.gov.au/WEB/STANDARD/pc=PC_310936 > From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au Wed Jan 30 08:52:43 2008 From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 08:52:43 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Public Knowledge Project, 15 February 2008, Canberra Message-ID: <20080129225951.244E73553@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com> Recommended talk at the National Library of Australia, 15 February 2008, 12.30 pm in Canberra. Kevin Stranack is from the Public Knowledge Project at the Simon Fraser University, which produced the free Open Journal System publishing software. I used this to set up a digital library for the Australian Computer Society : >It gives me pleasure to invite you to the next Digital Culture talk: >The Public Knowledge Project: Breaking Down the Barriers to Open Access >Kevin Stranack > >Are you concerned about the spiraling costs of academic journals? Do >you worry that access to critical research information is under >threat? This presentation will describe the work of the Public >Knowledge Project, and discuss some of the steps librarians and >others in Canada, Australia, and other countries around the world >are taking to confront the crisis in scholarly communication, and >ensure that readers and authors remain connected. > >A collaboration between the University of British Columbia, Stanford >University, and Simon Fraser University's Library and Canadian >Centre for Studies in Publishing, the Public Knowledge Project has >grown from a small research project into a global, community-based, >open access publishing alternative, providing free, open source >software for hundreds of researchers, editors, software developers, >and librarians. > >Kevin will be introduced by Chris Foster, Director Monographs >Branch, National Library of Australia > >The speaker >Kevin Stranack is a librarian with the Public Knowledge Project at >the Simon Fraser University Library. He works with editors, >publishers, software developers, and librarians in their use of open >source software for open access publishing, and is the author of >"OJS in an Hour", "OCS in an Hour", "Getting Found, Staying Found", >and other documents published by the Project. Kevin is a frequent >presenter at library and information technology conferences, >including the Canadian Library Association, the British Columbia >Library Association, the Charleston Conference, Access, BCNet, >NetSpeed, and others. > >Date: Friday 15 February 2008 >Time: 12.30 to 13.30 >Venue: Library Theatre >This talk is free and open to everyone. ... > >Bobby Graham >Web Content Manager >Web Publishing Branch, IT Division >National Library of Australia >Tel: +61 2 6262 1542 >www.nla.gov.au Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington at tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150 Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 17 088 714 309 PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617 http://www.tomw.net.au/ Adjunct Senior Lecturer, ANU From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Wed Jan 30 11:48:04 2008 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 11:48:04 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: [aliaACTive] Reminder: Open Access Collections References: <871B1597F6E4F04B85465F9C7E706C5016FA07@CASEVS03.cas.anu.edu.au> Message-ID: <6814519B-631F-4870-8AC5-FE71358A44CA@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Begin forwarded message: > From: "Margaret Henty" > Date: 29 January 2008 12:14:29 PM > To: > Subject: [aliaACTive] Reminder: Open Access Collections > > > > Open Access Collections, a one day workshop on the challenges and > opportunities of open access publishing for Australian universities > will > be held at Customs House in Brisbane on February 14. > > The program will include two overseas speakers: > > * Dr Peter Murray Rust from the Unilever Centre for Molecular > Sciences Informatics at the University of Cambridge who has written > widely on the need for open access > * Kevin Stranack from the Public Knowledge Project at Simon Fraser > University. > > Other speakers will include: > > Leanne Harvey from the Department of Education, Employment and > Workplace > Relations > Professor Hubert Chanson, Professor in Civil Engineering, The > University > of Queensland > Professor Ray Frost, School of Physical & Chemical Sciences, > Queensland > University of Technology > Danny Kingsley, Graduate Scholar, Australian National University > > A more complete program is available at > http://www.apsr.edu.au/open_access_collections/index.htm > > where you will also find registration details. Registrations will > close > on February 8. > > Hope to see you there, > > Margaret > > ********************************************************************** > * > Margaret Henty > National Services Program Coordinator > Australian Partnership for Sustainable Repositories W. K. Hancock > Building (#43) The Australian National University Canberra, ACT, 0200, > AUSTRALIA > phone 61 2 6125 7685 mob. 0404 878 442 > fax 61 2 6125 5526 > http://www.apsr.edu.au > From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au Wed Jan 30 14:12:24 2008 From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:12:24 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: MR 7-08: A new approach to consultation on spectrum matters [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] References: <02534010012016562372600@subscribedmailings.com> Message-ID: <08475995-4B0C-4E30-B050-AD8F4124659C@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Begin forwarded message: > From: "Australian Communications & Media Authority" > > Date: 30 January 2008 12:23:57 PM > To: > Subject: MR 7-08: A new approach to consultation on spectrum > matters [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] > Reply-To: media at acma.gov.au > > The Australian Communications and Media Authority has announced > three initiatives to promote increased consultation, transparency > and accountability in its radiofrequency spectrum planning and > management. The full media release can be found at http:// > www.acma.gov.au/WEB/STANDARD/pc=PC_310939 > > From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au Wed Jan 30 15:17:19 2008 From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 15:17:19 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: MR 7-08: A new approach to consultation on spectrum matters In-Reply-To: <08475995-4B0C-4E30-B050-AD8F4124659C@tony-barry.emu.id.au> References: <02534010012016562372600@subscribedmailings.com> <08475995-4B0C-4E30-B050-AD8F4124659C@tony-barry.emu.id.au> Message-ID: >> The Australian Communications and Media Authority has announced >>three initiatives to promote increased consultation, transparency >>and accountability in its radiofrequency spectrum planning and >>management. The full media release can be found at >>http://www.acma.gov.au/WEB/STANDARD/pc=PC_310939 Here I was expecting use of e-tools. But what is it? 1. a single advisory group underpinned by working groups 2. a radiocommunications conference 3. development and annual updating of a five-year rolling strategy plan Maybe there *is* a case for Kevin Rudd's office to vet Media Releases after all. (:-)} -- Roger Clarke http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd 78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916 mailto:Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au http://www.xamax.com.au/ Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng Australian National University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre Uni of NSW From nospam at crm911.com Wed Jan 30 17:35:29 2008 From: nospam at crm911.com (Ash Nallawalla) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:35:29 +1100 Subject: [LINK] "I don't understand computers" is not an excuse! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <020501c8630a$4f458cc0$edd0a640$@com> What is missing in #4 is a comment about the nasties that can affect computers - employees love to receive and pass on "funny" or "cute" emails and they like to install cursors and toolbars, or generally click on links. Without going into the specifics of Trojans vs Viruses, the business owner needs to know that employees should not surf the web for personal reasons, which includes clicking on links in private emails. " A typical small businessperson no more needs to know how computers work that Sir..." - change "that" to "than". Regards Ash http://www.netmagellan.com From stil at stilgherrian.com Wed Jan 30 17:43:55 2008 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:43:55 +1100 Subject: [LINK] "I don't understand computers" is not an excuse! In-Reply-To: <020501c8630a$4f458cc0$edd0a640$@com> Message-ID: On 30/1/08 5:35 PM, "Ash Nallawalla" wrote: > What is missing in #4 is a comment about the nasties that can affect > computers - employees love to receive and pass on "funny" or "cute" emails > and they like to install cursors and toolbars, or generally click on links. > Without going into the specifics of Trojans vs Viruses, the business owner > needs to know that employees should not surf the web for personal reasons, > which includes clicking on links in private emails. Excellent point, will add it in the next edition. > " A typical small businessperson no more needs to know how computers work > that Sir..." - change "that" to "than". Fixed. Stil -- Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/ Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia mobile +61 407 623 600 fax +61 2 9516 5630 ABN 25 231 641 421 From brd at iimetro.com.au Wed Jan 30 22:05:38 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:05:38 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Security efforts hindered by untrained users Message-ID: <47A05A02.6030202@iimetro.com.au> Security efforts hindered by untrained users By Shamus McGillicuddy, News Writer 29 Jan 2008 http://searchcio-midmarket.techtarget.com/news/article/0,289142,sid183_gci1296314,00.html Buy all the security technology you want. You're only as secure as your most idiotic end user. A survey sponsored by security vendor GFI Software Ltd. revealed that midmarket CIOs don't want a bigger security budget. They want educated employees. GFI's survey asked IT leaders at 455 small and midmarket businesses in the U.S. what would help improve the level of security at their companies. Only 12% said a larger budget would help. Forty-eight percent chose better awareness of security among employees, and another 25% said better awareness of security among senior management was key. Clearly this is contributing to their general feeling of insecurity, because 42% of survey respondents said they do not consider their networks to be secure -- even though 96% have antivirus technology in place and 93% have firewalls installed. In fact, new research from New York-based AMI Partners Inc. has revealed that midmarket companies spent 17% more on security in 2007 than they did in 2006. "They see the end user as the weakest link," said David Kelleher, project leader for research and surveys at San Gwann, Malta-based GFI. "The proliferation of these social networking sites has created more and more problems for administrators. These employees are spending their lunch break updating profiles and downloading files and clicking links. There's always the risk of clicking a link that takes you to a malicious Web site." Kelleher said midmarket companies have security policies, but there isn't a good level of communication between IT and end users. End users don't understand the reasoning behind the policies, nor how IT plans to enforce them. Kelleher said CIOs should make sure new employees go through a rigorous induction course that explains what they can and can't do on the network. He said IT should also lean on vendors and resellers for education on security issues, particularly for educating senior management. "Certainly end users are a big hole for most people, because end users are not going to be your most technically competent people," said Gary Chen, a senior analyst at Boston-based Yankee Group Research Inc. "And a lot of attacks today rely on the gullibility of users to click on a link." Chen said it's important to educate end users, but he's not sure it will really do any good. "I guess I'm not truly convinced that you can seriously make a dent in that problem," he said. "You can do all the training you want, but people are just going to be stupid and you're not going to be able to do much about it." Chen said small and midmarket companies should strive to implement technologies that assume the user is going to do the wrong thing. He said these companies should look to vendors who offer integrated security services or managed services. "There's just so many security technologies, and SMBs just don't have the time to research every new threat," Chen said. "What they need is to integrate stuff, to buy one service or device to handle everything instead of getting this product for this problem and that product for that problem. I think the offerings are falling behind. SMBs are falling behind on security. I don't think they're keeping up. They are losing the war. But there are a lot of services being put together now." Kelleher added, "I think too many SMBs are worried about viruses and spam. They need to start looking beyond. There are many, many more threats and they have to be more proactive. They can't wait for something to happen. They basically need to take out an insurance policy because ultimately security is a cost of doing business." -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From brendansweb at optusnet.com.au Wed Jan 30 22:57:27 2008 From: brendansweb at optusnet.com.au (Brendan Scott) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:57:27 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Security efforts hindered by untrained users In-Reply-To: <47A05A02.6030202@iimetro.com.au> References: <47A05A02.6030202@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <47A06627.7010500@optusnet.com.au> Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > Security efforts hindered by untrained users > By Shamus McGillicuddy, News Writer > 29 Jan 2008 > http://searchcio-midmarket.techtarget.com/news/article/0,289142,sid183_gci1296314,00.html [] > "Certainly end users are a big hole for most people, because end users > are not going to be your most technically competent people," said Gary > Chen, a senior analyst at Boston-based Yankee Group Research Inc. "And a > lot of attacks today rely on the gullibility of users to click on a link." Surely this could be effectively combated by having a pop up ask "Are you sure?" each time someone clicks a link? From kim.holburn at gmail.com Thu Jan 31 03:03:13 2008 From: kim.holburn at gmail.com (Kim Holburn) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:03:13 +0100 Subject: [LINK] Security efforts hindered by untrained users In-Reply-To: <47A06627.7010500@optusnet.com.au> References: <47A05A02.6030202@iimetro.com.au> <47A06627.7010500@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 2008/Jan/30, at 12:57 PM, Brendan Scott wrote: > Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: >> Security efforts hindered by untrained users >> By Shamus McGillicuddy, News Writer >> 29 Jan 2008 >> http://searchcio-midmarket.techtarget.com/news/article/ >> 0,289142,sid183_gci1296314,00.html > > [] > >> "Certainly end users are a big hole for most people, because end >> users >> are not going to be your most technically competent people," said >> Gary >> Chen, a senior analyst at Boston-based Yankee Group Research Inc. >> "And a >> lot of attacks today rely on the gullibility of users to click on >> a link." > > Surely this could be effectively combated by having a pop up ask > "Are you sure?" each time someone clicks a link? For real security you need a follow-up pop-up to ask "Are you really sure?" and then an "Are you really really sure?" just to be sure, to be sure. Kim -- Kim Holburn IT Network & Security Consultant Ph: +39 06 855 4294 M: +39 3494957443 mailto:kim at holburn.net aim://kimholburn skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny. -- Lloyd Biggle, Jr. Analog, Apr 1961 From stil at stilgherrian.com Thu Jan 31 05:40:47 2008 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 05:40:47 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Security efforts hindered by untrained users In-Reply-To: <47A06627.7010500@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 30/1/08 10:57 PM, "Brendan Scott" wrote: > Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: > >> "Certainly end users are a big hole for most people, because end users >> are not going to be your most technically competent people," said Gary >> Chen, a senior analyst at Boston-based Yankee Group Research Inc. "And a >> lot of attacks today rely on the gullibility of users to click on a link." > > Surely this could be effectively combated by having a pop up ask "Are you > sure?" each time someone clicks a link? No. Having worked a lot with relative na?ve users over the years, I can report that any dialog which gets in the way of them achieving their aim simply isn't read. Since so many dialogs are meaningless (to them), and their world does not immediately cave in, hitting "OK" is a reflex action. They click "OK" without reading what the dialog says. Even if they did read the message, because they'd be being asked for every link, the vast majority of which would be legitimate, that click would soon become reflex if it wasn't already. Stil -- Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/ Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia mobile +61 407 623 600 fax +61 2 9516 5630 ABN 25 231 641 421 From rick at praxis.com.au Thu Jan 31 06:06:32 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 06:06:32 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Security efforts hindered by untrained users In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47A0CAB8.90805@praxis.com.au> Stilgherrian wrote: > No. Having worked a lot with relative na?ve users over the years, I can > report that any dialog which gets in the way of them achieving their aim > simply isn't read. Since so many dialogs are meaningless (to them), and > their world does not immediately cave in, hitting "OK" is a reflex action. > > They click "OK" without reading what the dialog says. > > Even if they did read the message, because they'd be being asked for every > link, the vast majority of which would be legitimate, that click would soon > become reflex if it wasn't already. I resemble that remark! I would hope that Brendan was being a bit sarcky with his suggestion about a pop-up. Here is a more comprehensive solution >> A dialogue pops up with a text box labelled "Please explain reason:". The staff member has to write in their own words why they are going to visit the given link. After the staff member hits the "Request" button in the dialogue, it is submitted to the Department of Redundancy Department for further investigating and vetting. Once the link is approved by the BOFH*, the staff member can happily surf to that site. Wash, rinse, repeat, as required. On a more serious note, the quoted article is a very long-winded puff piece that says "stupid people offline are going to be stupid online as well; there is nothing that can be done to unstupify stupid people." Yeah, so what? I guess interesting things to write about were scarce on ground that day. cheers rickw * BOFH: Bastard Operator From Hell http://members.iinet.net.au/~bofh/ Highly comical and insightful net comedy! A must-read for every PBH. (But I think PHB originates in the Dilbert cartoon series) -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Any sufficiently advanced technology seems like magic. -- Arthur C. Namesake From cas at taz.net.au Thu Jan 31 06:43:22 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 06:43:22 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Security efforts hindered by untrained users In-Reply-To: References: <47A06627.7010500@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20080130194321.GE6828@taz.net.au> On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 05:40:47AM +1100, Stilgherrian wrote: > > Surely this could be effectively combated by having a pop up ask "Are you > > sure?" each time someone clicks a link? > > No. [...] > > They click "OK" without reading what the dialog says. that's easily solved. put in a 3 second delay before the "OK" button appears in the dialog box. craig -- craig sanders BOFH excuse #288: Hard drive sleeping. Let it wake up on it's own... From cas at taz.net.au Thu Jan 31 06:49:26 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 06:49:26 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Security efforts hindered by untrained users In-Reply-To: <47A0CAB8.90805@praxis.com.au> References: <47A0CAB8.90805@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <20080130194926.GF6828@taz.net.au> On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 06:06:32AM +1100, Rick Welykochy wrote: > On a more serious note, the quoted article is a very long-winded > puff piece that says "stupid people offline are going to be stupid > online as well; there is nothing that can be done to unstupify stupid > people." Yeah, so what? I guess interesting things to write about were > scarce on ground that day. there's also the fact (which can be attested to by anyone who has ever done tech support) that many otherwise quite intelligent people suddenly become incredibly stupid when faced with any technology more complicated than a toaster. and, of course, there ARE a lot of just plain stupid people in the world...the movie Idiocracy was not a comedy, it was a chillingly accurate prophecy. craig -- craig sanders BOFH excuse #25: Decreasing electron flux From stil at stilgherrian.com Thu Jan 31 07:05:15 2008 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 07:05:15 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Security efforts hindered by untrained users In-Reply-To: <20080130194926.GF6828@taz.net.au> Message-ID: On 31/1/08 6:49 AM, "Craig Sanders" wrote: > there's also the fact (which can be attested to by anyone who has ever > done tech support) that many otherwise quite intelligent people suddenly > become incredibly stupid when faced with any technology more complicated > than a toaster. I think part of the problem is that many geeks blame perfectly intelligent people who may be well-informed and capable in their own field(s) for not immediately understanding the complicated, non-intuitive (except to other geeks) and rapidly-changing technology which we've forced upon them. If perfectly intelligent people have trouble with the technology, then it's our fault for making poor technology, our fault for not training them, and our fault for alienating them by calling them idiots. It's also partially the fault of marketing departments for pushing the idea that complex technology is something you "should" understand "at the push of the button", but geeks aren't helping. In general. Stil -- Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/ Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia mobile +61 407 623 600 fax +61 2 9516 5630 ABN 25 231 641 421 From matthew at sorbs.net Thu Jan 31 07:51:17 2008 From: matthew at sorbs.net (Matthew Sullivan) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 07:51:17 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Security efforts hindered by untrained users In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47A0E345.4020607@sorbs.net> Stilgherrian wrote: > On 30/1/08 10:57 PM, "Brendan Scott" wrote: > > >> Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote: >> >> >>> "Certainly end users are a big hole for most people, because end users >>> are not going to be your most technically competent people," said Gary >>> Chen, a senior analyst at Boston-based Yankee Group Research Inc. "And a >>> lot of attacks today rely on the gullibility of users to click on a link." >>> >> Surely this could be effectively combated by having a pop up ask "Are you >> sure?" each time someone clicks a link? >> > > No. Having worked a lot with relative na?ve users over the years, I can > report that any dialog which gets in the way of them achieving their aim > simply isn't read. Since so many dialogs are meaningless (to them), and > their world does not immediately cave in, hitting "OK" is a reflex action. > > They click "OK" without reading what the dialog says. > > Even if they did read the message, because they'd be being asked for every > link, the vast majority of which would be legitimate, that click would soon > become reflex if it wasn't already. > What you have to remember is that the user doesn't see 'Ok' or 'Cancel' they just see one button that says: "Press this to make it work." / Mat From stil at stilgherrian.com Thu Jan 31 07:56:43 2008 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 07:56:43 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Security efforts hindered by untrained users In-Reply-To: <47A0E345.4020607@sorbs.net> Message-ID: On 31/1/08 7:51 AM, "Matthew Sullivan" wrote: > Stilgherrian wrote: >> No. Having worked a lot with relative na?ve users over the years, I can >> report that any dialog which gets in the way of them achieving their aim >> simply isn't read. Since so many dialogs are meaningless (to them), and >> their world does not immediately cave in, hitting "OK" is a reflex action. >> >> They click "OK" without reading what the dialog says. >> >> Even if they did read the message, because they'd be being asked for every >> link, the vast majority of which would be legitimate, that click would soon >> become reflex if it wasn't already. >> > What you have to remember is that the user doesn't see 'Ok' or 'Cancel' > they just see one button that says: > > "Press this to make it work." That, Sir, is EXACTLY the best way of putting it! Stil -- Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/ Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia mobile +61 407 623 600 fax +61 2 9516 5630 ABN 25 231 641 421 From cas at taz.net.au Thu Jan 31 08:06:57 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 08:06:57 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Security efforts hindered by untrained users In-Reply-To: References: <20080130194926.GF6828@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <20080130210657.GG6828@taz.net.au> On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 07:05:15AM +1100, Stilgherrian wrote: > On 31/1/08 6:49 AM, "Craig Sanders" wrote: > > there's also the fact (which can be attested to by anyone who has > > ever done tech support) that many otherwise quite intelligent people > > suddenly become incredibly stupid when faced with any technology > > more complicated than a toaster. > > I think part of the problem is that many geeks blame perfectly > intelligent people who may be well-informed and capable in their > own field(s) for not immediately understanding the complicated, > non-intuitive (except to other geeks) and rapidly-changing technology > which we've forced upon them. no, that's not it at all. i'm talking about otherwise intelligent people who become useless idiots who aren't capable of and don't even bother trying to learn or understand even the simplest things about computers, no matter how often or how patiently you try to teach them. it's like their brain just switches off - they've made the decision that it's too hard or too much effort (or that it's "easier" to get someone else to do it for them) and they revert to being a pathetic, helpless child. > If perfectly intelligent people have trouble with the technology, then > it's our fault for making poor technology, our fault for not training > them, and our fault for alienating them by calling them idiots. partly. mostly, though, it's THEIR fault for refusing to even attempt to learn anything about it....worse than refuse, they actively resist and resent any attempt to teach them. (and, frankly, anyone who *chooses* not to even attempt to learn even the basics about something that's important to their daily personal and/or working life *IS* an idiot. no matter how smart they might be otherwise). BTW, on a related note: to borrow a misused term, there is such a thing as "irreducible complexity" - but not in the sense that loony creationists mean it. for a computer to be able to do all the things that people need it to do, a general purpose computing device for word processing, spreadsheets, web browsing, email, and numerous other tasks, absolutely *requires* at least a minimal level of complexity. it will not and can not ever be as simple to operate as a toaster (or even a VCR - something which otherwise intelligent people also have difficulty with). > It's also partially the fault of marketing departments for pushing the > idea that complex technology is something you "should" understand "at > the push of the button", yes. definitely. they've created and fostered unrealistic expectations. > but geeks aren't helping. actually, many geeks ARE helping. many geeks have the same attitude to tech support that I do (i.e. "teach rather than spoonfeed when possible/appropriate") and many are (also like me) very good at translating complex technical concepts into everyday English that non-techs can understand - and frequently encounter resistance, resentment, and hostility for our efforts. many people actively do not want to learn. craig -- craig sanders BOFH excuse #48: bad ether in the cables From stil at stilgherrian.com Thu Jan 31 08:16:07 2008 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 08:16:07 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Security efforts hindered by untrained users In-Reply-To: <20080130210657.GG6828@taz.net.au> Message-ID: On 31/1/08 8:06 AM, "Craig Sanders" wrote: > (and, frankly, anyone who *chooses* not to even attempt to learn even > the basics about something that's important to their daily personal > and/or working life *IS* an idiot. no matter how smart they might be > otherwise). Indeed, that's exactly the motivation behind the piece I wrote the other day: '?I don?t understand computers? is not an excuse' at http://stilgherrian.com/internet/managers_must_understand_computers/ ... though rather than calling them "idiots" I called them "incompetent". > it's like their brain just switches off - they've made the decision that > it's too hard or too much effort (or that it's "easier" to get someone > else to do it for them) and they revert to being a pathetic, helpless > child. Yes, noticed this too. I think there must be some fundamental brain mechanism at work here -- the equivalent of rabbits freezing in the headlights, maybe? I suspect that if we want to help people get over this hump, then we need to unlock whatever is happening here. Or, perhaps not. Perhaps this is just evolution at work, natural selection in action. Some of the humans are not genetically equipped to move into this new realm of being, and They Will Be Purged. Stil -- Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/ Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia mobile +61 407 623 600 fax +61 2 9516 5630 ABN 25 231 641 421 From kim.holburn at gmail.com Thu Jan 31 08:46:36 2008 From: kim.holburn at gmail.com (Kim Holburn) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:46:36 +0100 Subject: [LINK] Security efforts hindered by untrained users In-Reply-To: <20080130210657.GG6828@taz.net.au> References: <20080130194926.GF6828@taz.net.au> <20080130210657.GG6828@taz.net.au> Message-ID: You talk as if a knowledgeable person would understand when seeing the "pop up" what was happening and press the right button. Simply not the case. Much software is very badly designed and doesn't present the user with enough information to make any kind of informed answer. I've seen experienced IT people stumped at times, so how is the average user going to do? Not well. On 2008/Jan/30, at 10:06 PM, Craig Sanders wrote: > On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 07:05:15AM +1100, Stilgherrian wrote: >> On 31/1/08 6:49 AM, "Craig Sanders" wrote: >>> there's also the fact (which can be attested to by anyone who has >>> ever done tech support) that many otherwise quite intelligent people >>> suddenly become incredibly stupid when faced with any technology >>> more complicated than a toaster. >> >> I think part of the problem is that many geeks blame perfectly >> intelligent people who may be well-informed and capable in their >> own field(s) for not immediately understanding the complicated, >> non-intuitive (except to other geeks) and rapidly-changing technology >> which we've forced upon them. > > no, that's not it at all. > > i'm talking about otherwise intelligent people who become useless > idiots who aren't capable of and don't even bother trying to learn or > understand even the simplest things about computers, no matter how > often > or how patiently you try to teach them. > > it's like their brain just switches off - they've made the decision > that > it's too hard or too much effort (or that it's "easier" to get someone > else to do it for them) and they revert to being a pathetic, helpless > child. > >> If perfectly intelligent people have trouble with the technology, >> then >> it's our fault for making poor technology, our fault for not training >> them, and our fault for alienating them by calling them idiots. > > partly. mostly, though, it's THEIR fault for refusing to even attempt > to learn anything about it....worse than refuse, they actively resist > and resent any attempt to teach them. > > (and, frankly, anyone who *chooses* not to even attempt to learn even > the basics about something that's important to their daily personal > and/or working life *IS* an idiot. no matter how smart they might be > otherwise). > > > BTW, on a related note: to borrow a misused term, there is such a > thing as "irreducible complexity" - but not in the sense that loony > creationists mean it. for a computer to be able to do all the things > that people need it to do, a general purpose computing device for word > processing, spreadsheets, web browsing, email, and numerous other > tasks, > absolutely *requires* at least a minimal level of complexity. it will > not and can not ever be as simple to operate as a toaster (or even a > VCR - something which otherwise intelligent people also have > difficulty > with). > > > >> It's also partially the fault of marketing departments for pushing >> the >> idea that complex technology is something you "should" understand "at >> the push of the button", > > yes. definitely. they've created and fostered unrealistic > expectations. > >> but geeks aren't helping. > > actually, many geeks ARE helping. many geeks have the same attitude > to tech support that I do (i.e. "teach rather than spoonfeed when > possible/appropriate") and many are (also like me) very good at > translating complex technical concepts into everyday English that > non-techs can understand - and frequently encounter resistance, > resentment, and hostility for our efforts. > > many people actively do not want to learn. > > craig > > -- > craig sanders > > BOFH excuse #48: > > bad ether in the cables > _______________________________________________ > Link mailing list > Link at mailman.anu.edu.au > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link -- Kim Holburn IT Network & Security Consultant Ph: +39 06 855 4294 M: +39 3494957443 mailto:kim at holburn.net aim://kimholburn skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny. -- Lloyd Biggle, Jr. Analog, Apr 1961 From jwhit at janwhitaker.com Thu Jan 31 09:15:27 2008 From: jwhit at janwhitaker.com (Jan Whitaker) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 09:15:27 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Fwd: [crimescenewriter] Shape-shifting robot forms from magnetic swarm Message-ID: <6hhge8$1au611@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> > >http://technology.newscientist.com/channel/tech/dn13244-shapeshifting-robot-forms-from-magnetic-swarm.html?feedId=tech_rss20 Swarms of robots that use electromagnetic forces to cling together and assume different shapes are being developed by US researchers. The grand goal is to create swarms of microscopic robots capable of morphing into virtually any form by clinging together. Seth Goldstein, who leads the research project at Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, in the US, admits this is still a distant prospect. However, his team is using simulations to develop control strategies for futuristic shape-shifting, or "claytronic", robots, which they are testing on small groups of more primitive, pocket-sized machines. These prototype robots use electromagnetic forces to manoeuvre themselves, communicate, and even share power. [snip] Jan Semi-finalist - Amazon Breakout Novelist Award 2008: The Truck - A baby-boomer nostalgia murder mystery http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00121WDVA - Read and rate now! Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Writing Lesson #54: Learn to love revision. Think of it as polishing the silver for guests. - JW, May, 2007 _ __________________ _ From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Thu Jan 31 09:22:10 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 09:22:10 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Security efforts hindered by untrained users In-Reply-To: References: <20080130194926.GF6828@taz.net.au> <20080130210657.GG6828@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <6hhge8$1auas9@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> At 08:46 AM 31/01/2008, Kim Holburn wrote: >You talk as if a knowledgeable person would understand when seeing >the "pop up" what was happening and press the right button. Simply >not the case. Much software is very badly designed and doesn't >present the user with enough information to make any kind of informed >answer. I've seen experienced IT people stumped at times, so how is >the average user going to do? Not well. Agreed. There are so many warnings now that it's nearly impossible to know if doing something will really be a problem or just maybe a problem or just some geek covering his/her backside in the code. Just yesterday I was warned about a certificate that had expired and if I communicated with this site, someone might see it. The irony was that the site was wikileaks.org which through the request to secure.wikileaks.org! Jan Semi-finalist - Amazon Breakout Novelist Award 2008: The Truck - A baby-boomer nostalgia murder mystery http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00121WDVA - Read and rate now! Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Writing Lesson #54: Learn to love revision. Think of it as polishing the silver for guests. - JW, May, 2007 _ __________________ _ From rick at praxis.com.au Thu Jan 31 10:33:39 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 10:33:39 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Security efforts hindered by untrained users In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47A10953.4000603@praxis.com.au> Stilgherrian wrote: >> it's like their brain just switches off - they've made the decision that >> it's too hard or too much effort (or that it's "easier" to get someone >> else to do it for them) and they revert to being a pathetic, helpless >> child. > > Yes, noticed this too. I think there must be some fundamental brain > mechanism at work here -- the equivalent of rabbits freezing in the > headlights, maybe? Try switching disciplines and see if applies to *you*. Here is my example: I am a stupid idiot when it comes to company accounting. I ran an ISP for years, but when it came to rectifying accounts and doing the most rudimentary things like a Journal Entry, my brain would freeze up and I would call our accountant. I had and still have real trouble grasping the double entry system. The trouble arises when things are not correct in the accounts, i.e. "when things go wrong". I do not have any problem solving skills in the are of accounting. And I am trained in comps.sci., calculus, linear algebra and physics! I attribute this to the somewhat illogical arrangement of asset accounts vs liability accounts. The accountant tried to explain it to me, but I still get the "debit" and "credit" side of things mixed up for some accounts. It seems illogical to me! cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Any sufficiently advanced technology seems like magic. -- Arthur C. Namesake From swilson at lockstep.com.au Thu Jan 31 11:32:49 2008 From: swilson at lockstep.com.au (Stephen Wilson) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:32:49 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Perspective on security! [was: Security efforts hindered by untrained users] In-Reply-To: <47A10953.4000603@praxis.com.au> References: <47A10953.4000603@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <47A11731.7040209@lockstep.com.au> Jeez ... >> it's like their brain just switches off - they've made the decision that >> it's too hard or too much effort (or that it's "easier" to get someone >> else to do it for them) and they revert to being a pathetic, helpless >> child. > > Yes, noticed this too. I think there must be some fundamental brain > mechanism at work here -- the equivalent of rabbits freezing in the > headlights, maybe? I'm surprised by the naked contempt displayed in many of these comments for regular computing users. Even the self-evident jokes in this thread drip with sarcasm reflecting an unhelpful air of superiority. In many ways, commodity computing today mirrors the state of the automobile industry c. 1900s. You had to be a technical wizard to get the most out of a car, to operate it safely, to maintain it. The supply chain was still very complicated, no one-stop-shops back then. And no traffic rules either, or driver licenses, or road worthy certificates. The "business case" to buy an car instead of a horse was shaky. But I digress ... With regards security and usability, let's retain some perspective. We're in the very early stages of a new technological revolution. The deep deep knowledge that is required to safely operate computers (to make sense of dialog boxes and security warnings etc etc etc) may well become unnecessary in another decade. The Internet might adopt the sorts of embedded security mechanisms that are needed to safeguard privacy and security (as opposed to sharing physics papers as the WWW was originally intended to do). And PCs might adopt proper security firmware (like Trusted Platform Modules) to make them safe enough to double as ATMs (as opposed to playing video games and writing BASIC programs as the Wintel platform was originally designed for). [Or maybe things won't get better. My fear is that software still advances too quickly for hardware and standards to keep up. Speed of development after all is why we have software, but it takes discipline to engineer the stuff properly, including testing. I would speculate that if cars were made of software instead of alloy, and took hours to modify instead of years, the auto industry (including its standards and safety regulations) might have never settled down as it has.] Meanwhile, let's approach security and usability with a blend of good software design, testing, human factors engineering, education, support services, cryptography and so on. And stop with the glib blame game, like 'if the bloody users only educated themselves, it would all be OK'. Cheers, Stephen Wilson Managing Director Lockstep Phone +61 (0)414 488 851 www.lockstep.com.au ------------------- * Lockstep Technologies: ICT Secrets of Innovation Finalist 2007 * Lockstep Technologies: Anthill / PwC Cool Company Finalist 2007 ------------------- Lockstep Consulting provides independent specialist advice and analysis on authentication, PKI and smartcards. Lockstep Technologies develops unique new smart ID solutions that safeguard identity and privacy. From rick at praxis.com.au Thu Jan 31 11:36:16 2008 From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:36:16 +1100 Subject: [LINK] French police deal blow to Microsoft Message-ID: <47A11800.3070002@praxis.com.au> "French police deal blow to Microsoft The French paramilitary police force said Wednesday it is ditching Microsoft for the free Linux operating system, becoming one of the biggest administrations in the world to make the break. ... The move away from licenced products is saving the gendarmerie about seven million euros (10.3 million US dollars) a year for all its PCs." Seems like world's best expenditure practice is to move away from expensive licenced products and save taxpayers big bucks. As taxpayers we should demand that the bureaucracies that we pay for adopt this best practice. cheers rickw -- _________________________________ Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services Any sufficiently advanced technology seems like magic. -- Arthur C. Namesake From stil at stilgherrian.com Thu Jan 31 11:47:56 2008 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:47:56 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Perspective on security! [was: Security efforts hindered by untrained users] In-Reply-To: <47A11731.7040209@lockstep.com.au> Message-ID: On 31/1/08 11:32 AM, "Stephen Wilson" wrote: > Jeez ... > >>> it's like their brain just switches off - they've made the decision that >>> it's too hard or too much effort (or that it's "easier" to get someone >>> else to do it for them) and they revert to being a pathetic, helpless >>> child. >> >> Yes, noticed this too. I think there must be some fundamental brain >> mechanism at work here -- the equivalent of rabbits freezing in the >> headlights, maybe? > > I'm surprised by the naked contempt displayed in many of these comments > for regular computing users. Even the self-evident jokes in this thread > drip with sarcasm reflecting an unhelpful air of superiority. [snip] Stephen, just to be clear, I'm actually agreeing with you on this issue -- and was also considering using the early auto industry as an analogy (but got distracted by some other things before writing). I'm not sure whether you *intend* to group me with the contempt-showers, but since your comment comes immediately after quoting a paragraph I wrote, I'm worried that you are. I'd therefore like to repeat an earlier paragraph I wrote: > If perfectly intelligent people have trouble with the technology, then it's > our fault for making poor technology, our fault for not training them, and our > fault for alienating them by calling them idiots. As for the rabbit-in-spotlight comment... I've actually seen this. A dialog pops up and people do literally freeze in place, completely unsure as to what to do next. So frozen, in fact, that they don't think to read the words in front of them. (Of course it doesn't help if the words are meaningless to them.) And I stress again, some fundamental human mechanism must be at work here -- which we need to understand to move forward. While I did make a tongue-in-cheek comment about "natural selection in action", I do wonder whether there might not be some truth in this. Our brain is a wonderfully complex thing, and while to you and me it might look like undifferentiated slush, perhaps there are different structures in different people. Could not we see the emergence of brains which can better handle many, short-duration inputs (from watching TV or many data inputs on a computer screen), or more abstract concepts (ditto) rather than being able to react to a pouncing tiger? I don't see this as being any more critical of people as humans than saying some people have evolved to have more melanin in their skin because of the environment their ancestors grew up in. Possibly I have over-reacted to your comment. But it did come after quoting me, so... Stil -- Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/ Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia mobile +61 407 623 600 fax +61 2 9516 5630 ABN 25 231 641 421 From stil at stilgherrian.com Thu Jan 31 11:49:57 2008 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:49:57 +1100 Subject: Bookkeeping (was Re: [LINK] Security efforts hindered by untrained users) In-Reply-To: <47A1180E.4000609@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: On 31/1/08 11:36 AM, "Howard Lowndes" wrote: > What's hard about it? My bookkeeping lecturer told me: > > "Debits on the left, Credits on the right" :) > > I must admit that it took me a while to appreciate that debtors are an > asset, and that Cash and Bank are a debit. :) This is another case where you can blame those b&$%tards at the bank. They send you a statement of account written from *their* point of view as a bank, not ours as the customer. So we're constantly shown data that's "the wrong way around". No wonder it's confusing. Stil -- Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/ Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia mobile +61 407 623 600 fax +61 2 9516 5630 ABN 25 231 641 421 From bpa at iss.net.au Thu Jan 31 12:12:27 2008 From: bpa at iss.net.au (Brenda Aynsley) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:42:27 +1030 Subject: [LINK] Perspective on security! [was: Security efforts hindered by untrained users] In-Reply-To: <47A11731.7040209@lockstep.com.au> References: <47A10953.4000603@praxis.com.au> <47A11731.7040209@lockstep.com.au> Message-ID: <47A1207B.6010703@iss.net.au> Stephen Wilson wrote: > I'm surprised by the naked contempt displayed in many of these comments > for regular computing users. Even the self-evident jokes in this thread > drip with sarcasm reflecting an unhelpful air of superiority. > Even as a long standing member of this list, I think I agree with you Stephen, the views we express on this list tend to be elitist on many occasions :( [snip] > With regards security and usability, let's retain some perspective. We're in the very early stages of a new technological revolution. The deep deep knowledge that is required to safely operate computers (to make sense of dialog boxes and security warnings etc etc etc) may well become unnecessary in another decade. [snip] I teach people to survive on the Internet whilst they are learning how to optimise their participation in the wired/wireless world. How do I do that? This is my best advice to those less well versed in this wondrous world we inhabit and it takes commonsense, and a very little bit of technical know-how, to implement: 1. I provide information and know-how about suitable safety devices - installing firewalls, antivirus, anti spyware tools in the windows environment and the need to keep these current at all times. I also point out the limitations of these tools and the need for them to THINK about what they are doing. 2. I teach them what i call a 'cause and effect' strategy with respect to dialogue boxes. * Did you do something that caused that (firewall/security device) dialog box to come up? * If not tell the firewall no ie cancel/deny etc. * If you did and it 'looks alright', it *probably is* ok to click allow/ok etc. * If you aren't sure take the cancel option. 3. Be very conservative about where you go wandering in the web, just like you would if you were visiting a strange city. 4. If you read something on the screen and it sounds too good to be true had you read it on a flyer in your letterbox, then it certainly will be just the same online. That is - don't suspend disbelief just because you are gob-smacked about the medium. It's not the same as understanding what you are doing but it's a strategy that has largely worked for me over the years as I have acquired what Internet savvy I have got. In the early years of the Internet (c1993) I used to advocate that the browser ought to be the 'only doorway' to the Internet and locked down to a whitelist and as users became more aware and savvy, they'd pass a test that would allow them to have a broader whitelist and so on ... until they had free access cos they had sufficient nous to cope with that level of freedom. I still think that 'protected' environments are worth implementing, but appreciate the complexity of doing so. cheers brenda -- Brenda Aynsley, FACS, PCP Director Oz Business Partners http://www.ozbusinesspartners.com/ Mobile:+61(0) 412 662 988 || Skype: callto://baynsley Phone:08 8357 8844 Fax:08 8272 7486 Nodephone:08 7127 0107 Chairman Pearcey Foundation, SA Committee www.pearcey.org.au Immediate Past Chairman ACS SA Branch www.acs.org.au/sa *Produced by Ubuntu and Mozilla Thunderbird* From a.maurushat at unsw.edu.au Thu Jan 31 12:23:01 2008 From: a.maurushat at unsw.edu.au (Alana Maurushat) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:23:01 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Security efforts hindered by untrained users In-Reply-To: <200801310102.m0V12mqJ012991@anumail0.anu.edu.au> References: <200801310102.m0V12mqJ012991@anumail0.anu.edu.au> Message-ID: Alright. Time for my very first contribution to Link and *gasp* *choke* as a lawyer and luddite = someone who is frustrated easily by technology designed without the user in mind (the reason why I purchased a Mac a few months back). I find it easier to understand how the Storm Worm propagates than I do trying to figure out whether I am actually using a secure site, or what the heck anything from the Active X Control means. As for pop-ups, where do I start: 1) they immediately scare me and even deter me from what I am doing at times - well, if it involves money, 2) there's no way of knowing if the pop-up is from a trusted source and 3) you need technical support to follow the instructions, and 4)even if you perform all acts in a secure manner, then the original application is no longer available to you. Could there be anything more frustrating! Could you imagine putting your toast in the toaster but before doing so, you are prompted to check to see if your toaster is plugged in, is the circuit working, would you like it semi-toasted on one side, black on the other, is this really the toaster you want to use, etc. Then you do everything only to find out that you can no longer make toast! Because this is what it's like for the average user of technologies. Market the technologies as complex, but PLEASE make them simple to work. Current security measures are the scourge of the Internet from a user perspective. We simply don't know who or what to trust anymore. I say this honestly, and would love to hear on how you think this could be improved upon. Alana FYI: Currently writing PhD in legal, ethical, and technical dimensions of botnets. -----Original Message----- From: link-bounces at anumail0.anu.edu.au [mailto:link-bounces at anumail0.anu.edu.au] On Behalf Of link-request at anumail0.anu.edu.au Sent: Thursday, 31 January 2008 12:03 PM To: link at anumail0.anu.edu.au Subject: Link Digest, Vol 182, Issue 56 Send Link mailing list submissions to link at mailman.anu.edu.au To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to link-request at mailman.anu.edu.au You can reach the person managing the list at link-owner at mailman.anu.edu.au When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Link digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Bookkeeping (was Re: [LINK] Security efforts hindered by untrained users) (Stilgherrian) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:49:57 +1100 From: Stilgherrian Subject: Bookkeeping (was Re: [LINK] Security efforts hindered by untrained users) To: The Link Institute Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" On 31/1/08 11:36 AM, "Howard Lowndes" wrote: > What's hard about it? My bookkeeping lecturer told me: > > "Debits on the left, Credits on the right" :) > > I must admit that it took me a while to appreciate that debtors are an > asset, and that Cash and Bank are a debit. :) This is another case where you can blame those b&$%tards at the bank. They send you a statement of account written from *their* point of view as a bank, not ours as the customer. So we're constantly shown data that's "the wrong way around". No wonder it's confusing. Stil -- Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/ Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia mobile +61 407 623 600 fax +61 2 9516 5630 ABN 25 231 641 421 ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Link mailing list Link at mailman.anu.edu.au http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link End of Link Digest, Vol 182, Issue 56 ************************************* From brd at iimetro.com.au Thu Jan 31 14:18:03 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:18:03 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Lotus Notes 8.5 to fully support Ubuntu Linux 7.0 Message-ID: <47A13DEB.80102@iimetro.com.au> Lotus Notes 8.5 to fully support Ubuntu Linux 7.0 IBM says end users with 100,000 desktops looking at Ubuntu Linux By Todd R. Weiss Computerworld http://www.computerworlduk.com/technology/applications/enterprise/news/index.cfm?newsid=7193&print IBM believes Linux on the enterprise desktop finally ready for widespread adoption. To meet future demand it is preparing to deliver its next versions of Lotus Notes enterprise collaboration software and Lotus Symphony office productivity applications for the first time with full support for Ubuntu Linux 7.0. The roll out will occur sometime in the second half of this year. In an announcement this week at the Lotusphere 2008 conference in Orlando, IBM said that it will provide full support for Ubuntu Linux with Lotus Notes 8.5 and Lotus Symphony using its Open Collaboration Client software, which is based on open standards. Antony Satyadas, chief competitive marketing officer for IBM Lotus, said the Ubuntu support for Notes and Symphony were a direct response to demand from customers. Lotus Notes 8.0.1 has limited support for Ubuntu Linux, but customers have asked for broader capabilities, he said. "We're doing pilots with customers now," Satyadas said. "Some of the requests came from big companies" with as many as 100,000 users that are interested in moving to Ubuntu Linux on the desktop. "The other thing we are seeing is some interesting patterns evolving here," he said. "It starts with a very small company looking at Linux, and then there are really large companies that are starting out small with 500 [Linux desktop] users, then moving up to 2,000 or more. That is the pattern we are seeing." Although some industry experts have been proclaiming for the last six years that Linux on the corporate desktop was finally ready, IBM thinks that this year, it will happen. IBM said in the past that Linux on the corporate desktop wouldn't happen until the operating system was good enough to allow companies to have all the functions they need to run their businesses. At the same time, an adequate supply of critical business software that would run reliably and efficiently on Linux would be needed. "We are putting our money where our mouth is," Satyadas said. "We think now the time is really[here]" and the needed business applications are available to make it work for enterprises. "We use it (Linux) ourselves. We are able to offer a secure, rich and cost-effective Microsoft alternative." The Open Collaboration Client software includes advanced e-mail and calendar capabilities, unified communication and collaboration functions and general word processing, spreadsheet and presentation capabilities with Open Document Format (ODF) support. The Open Collaboration Client is built on Lotus Expeditor, which is based on the open source Eclipse Rich Client Platform. Mark Murphy, vice president of alliances for Canonical, the commercial sponsor of Ubuntu Linux, said that the availability of Notes and Symphony for use with Ubuntu will be a "win for customers everywhere. Canonical is committed to bringing the best available productivity tools to its users on an open platform. ?Ubuntu users will now have an outstanding choice with Lotus Notes, while businesses will have a great choice with Lotus Domino. From a technical viewpoint, we are impressed how Lotus leverages the Eclipse platform to build and deliver rich client applications. This is an exciting development for Ubuntu users, too. -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From brd at iimetro.com.au Thu Jan 31 14:18:13 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:18:13 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Ubuntu Message-ID: <47A13DF5.6090501@iimetro.com.au> I was going to put this at the front of the IBM article, but decided it needed a posting of its own. As a recent convert to Ubuntu, I was pleasantly surprised at its ease of installation and use. I used a free distro from a DVD on the cover of APC. It happily booted and then (after I initiated it) installed itself on an old Aptiva along side Win98 and a slave HDD with XP and Red Hat on it. It then phoned home (via the internet, not dial up) and told me what it needed to upgrade to the latest release level, which I allowed it to do. It has a habit (not unlike Vista) of asking for admin privileges, for which it needs my password (not root, just my login password), to do certain tasks. The most amazing thing to me has been the way I can print to a printer on a Vista desktop machine. Ubuntu found the printer, a recommend driver and installed it. I have not been able to work out how to get my notebook Vista to print to this same printer over the network. I can print directly to it by plugging it in but I can't get at it over the network. Somebody is doing something stupid and it is probably me, but Vista doesn't help me find out exactly what the problem is. The other thing I like is the Synaptic Package Manager. It lists over 23,000 available packages, mostly free, some (like Open Office) needing a "I accept these conditions" tick in the box. The only thing I found to be a problem was finding out that I needed to install a certain package set to compile and link C, Java etc. The information was buried in a help file. Once I did what was needed, everything worked fine. And the whole system now takes up only 3.3 GBytes. I'm next going to put Ubuntu onto a 4GByte memory stick I have used a few Linux distros and this latest Ubuntu beats the lot. It gets pretty close to beating Vista too, depending on what you want a computer for. -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From brd at iimetro.com.au Thu Jan 31 14:51:22 2008 From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:51:22 +1100 Subject: [LINK] E-Voting Undermines Public Confidence In Elections Even Without Evidence Message-ID: <47A145BA.7020707@iimetro.com.au> E-Voting Undermines Public Confidence In Elections Even Without Evidence of Wrongdoing from the conflict-of-interest dept Timothy Lee Tech Dirt http://techdirt.com/articles/20080120/07521615.shtml Are Republican operatives scheming to steal the election in Maryland this fall? Threat Level is reporting that the contract for transporting e-voting machines in the state has been contracted to a company whose president was the head of the state Republican party until 2006. I think the answer is almost certainly "no": while this certainly looks like a conflict of interest, I suspect it's no more than an honest oversight that will be quickly corrected. Still, it's troubling that we even have to worry about who transports voting machines. With ordinary paper ballots, it doesn't matter who transports them because there's nothing a moving company can do to undermine the election. But with e-voting machines, a moving company really could install malicious software that would undermine the election. And once an e-voting machines has been tampered with, there's no reliable mechanism for detecting the problem. Again, there's no evidence anything untoward has occurred in Maryland. But no matter who transports those e-voting machines, the public is being asked to take it on faith that they won't be tampered with. In a well-designed voting system, voters shouldn't have to take anyone's actions on faith. The entire process should be simple and transparent, so that anyone can observe it and verify that it was carried out correctly. The complexity and opacity of e-voting machines makes effective public scrutiny impossible, and so it's a bad idea even in the absence of specific evidence of wrongdoing. Timothy Lee is an expert at the Techdirt Insight Community. -- Regards brd Bernard Robertson-Dunn Sydney Australia brd at iimetro.com.au From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Thu Jan 31 15:22:12 2008 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (Richard Chirgwin) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:22:12 +1100 Subject: [LINK] E-Voting Undermines Public Confidence In Elections Even Without Evidence In-Reply-To: <47A145BA.7020707@iimetro.com.au> References: <47A145BA.7020707@iimetro.com.au> Message-ID: <47A14CF4.3050703@ozemail.com.au> Bernard, You beat me by 90 seconds or so ... > In a well-designed voting system, voters shouldn't have to take > anyone's actions on faith. The entire process should be simple and > transparent, so that anyone can observe it and verify that it was > carried out correctly. > > The complexity and opacity of e-voting machines makes effective public > scrutiny impossible, and so it's a bad idea even in the absence of > specific evidence of wrongdoing. > > Timothy Lee is an expert at the Techdirt Insight Community. > I think similar things have been said on Link on the same topic ... but perhaps not so succinctly. "Get with the program" types will keep on with the "I want e-voting" push, and I suspect will never let up. So it's important that democrats keep debunking e-voting as often as is needed... RC From eric.scheid at ironclad.net.au Thu Jan 31 15:36:17 2008 From: eric.scheid at ironclad.net.au (Eric Scheid) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:36:17 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Security efforts hindered by untrained users In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 31/1/08 8:16 AM, "Stilgherrian" wrote: > Indeed, that's exactly the motivation behind the piece I wrote the other > day: '?I don?t understand computers? is not an excuse' at > http://stilgherrian.com/internet/managers_must_understand_computers/ ... > though rather than calling them "idiots" I called them "incompetent". which isn't that far off from "idiot". would calling them "unprofessional" be better? e. From swilson at lockstep.com.au Thu Jan 31 15:44:12 2008 From: swilson at lockstep.com.au (Stephen Wilson) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:44:12 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Perspective on security! [was: Security efforts hindered by untrained users] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47A1521C.7010808@lockstep.com.au> Hi Stil, No, I didn't mean to group you with contempt-showers. Sorry for any imputation. I lost track of who said what and when in the thread, and just used the quoted passage as a launching pad. Cheers, Steve Wilson. Stilgherrian wrote: > On 31/1/08 11:32 AM, "Stephen Wilson" wrote: >> Jeez ... >> >>>> it's like their brain just switches off - they've made the decision that >>>> it's too hard or too much effort (or that it's "easier" to get someone >>>> else to do it for them) and they revert to being a pathetic, helpless >>>> child. >>> Yes, noticed this too. I think there must be some fundamental brain >>> mechanism at work here -- the equivalent of rabbits freezing in the >>> headlights, maybe? >> I'm surprised by the naked contempt displayed in many of these comments >> for regular computing users. Even the self-evident jokes in this thread >> drip with sarcasm reflecting an unhelpful air of superiority. [snip] > > Stephen, just to be clear, I'm actually agreeing with you on this issue -- > and was also considering using the early auto industry as an analogy (but > got distracted by some other things before writing). > > I'm not sure whether you *intend* to group me with the contempt-showers, but > since your comment comes immediately after quoting a paragraph I wrote, I'm > worried that you are. I'd therefore like to repeat an earlier paragraph I > wrote: > >> If perfectly intelligent people have trouble with the technology, then it's >> our fault for making poor technology, our fault for not training them, and our >> fault for alienating them by calling them idiots. > > As for the rabbit-in-spotlight comment... I've actually seen this. A dialog > pops up and people do literally freeze in place, completely unsure as to > what to do next. So frozen, in fact, that they don't think to read the words > in front of them. > > (Of course it doesn't help if the words are meaningless to them.) > > And I stress again, some fundamental human mechanism must be at work here -- > which we need to understand to move forward. > > While I did make a tongue-in-cheek comment about "natural selection in > action", I do wonder whether there might not be some truth in this. Our > brain is a wonderfully complex thing, and while to you and me it might look > like undifferentiated slush, perhaps there are different structures in > different people. Could not we see the emergence of brains which can better > handle many, short-duration inputs (from watching TV or many data inputs on > a computer screen), or more abstract concepts (ditto) rather than being able > to react to a pouncing tiger? > > I don't see this as being any more critical of people as humans than saying > some people have evolved to have more melanin in their skin because of the > environment their ancestors grew up in. > > Possibly I have over-reacted to your comment. But it did come after quoting > me, so... > > Stil > > From stil at stilgherrian.com Thu Jan 31 17:09:32 2008 From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:09:32 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Security efforts hindered by untrained users In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 31/1/08 3:36 PM, "Eric Scheid" wrote: > On 31/1/08 8:16 AM, "Stilgherrian" wrote: > >> Indeed, that's exactly the motivation behind the piece I wrote the other >> day: '?I don?t understand computers? is not an excuse' at >> http://stilgherrian.com/internet/managers_must_understand_computers/ ... >> though rather than calling them "idiots" I called them "incompetent". > > which isn't that far off from "idiot". You're right. While the "strict" meaning of "incompetent" is "without competence", i.e. they could learn and *become* competent, it's also a very accusatory word. > would calling them "unprofessional" be better? Possibly. OTOH, my intention was a deliberate splash of cold water in the face. I wanted to stress that not having *any* of the knowledge doesn't just mean that a business manager is "less competitive", but that he or she is genuinely not up for the job they've been hired to do. I *think* the article goes on to soften the blow... but it WAS my intention to slap 'em 'round a bit. :) Stil -- Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/ Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia mobile +61 407 623 600 fax +61 2 9516 5630 ABN 25 231 641 421 From cas at taz.net.au Thu Jan 31 17:23:00 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:23:00 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Security efforts hindered by untrained users In-Reply-To: References: <20080130210657.GG6828@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <20080131062300.GH6828@taz.net.au> On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 08:16:07AM +1100, Stilgherrian wrote: > Or, perhaps not. Perhaps this is just evolution at work, natural > selection in action. Some of the humans are not genetically equipped > to move into this new realm of being, and They Will Be Purged. unfortunately, that's not the way that human breeding statistics are panning out. craig -- craig sanders BOFH excuse #379: We've picked COBOL as the language of choice. From jwhit at melbpc.org.au Thu Jan 31 17:33:43 2008 From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:33:43 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Security efforts hindered by untrained users In-Reply-To: <47A0F1D7.60103@lannet.com.au> References: <47A0F1D7.60103@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <6hhge8$1b7npp@ipmail05.adl2.internode.on.net> At 08:53 AM 31/01/2008, Howard Lowndes wrote: >>>What you have to remember is that the user doesn't see 'Ok' or 'Cancel' >>>they just see one button that says: >>> >>>"Press this to make it work." >>That, Sir, is EXACTLY the best way of putting it! > >Easily fixed. Put a large Cancel button in the same obvious place >on the screen, and the minuscule OK button randomly hidden elsewhere. But there is a problem with this. Are you saying OK to I agree with the words in the box, which may be worded: allow this to happen OR this is bad so I'm going stop this before you screw yourself. A blanket OK or Cancel, assuming the message is the reverse meaning, won't help anyone. Cancel may merely cancel the nag box and allow the process to continue. What I love are the jokes I've seen where the nag box says something like: The action you just requested will destroy your harddrive: OK Continue :-) Jan Semi-finalist - Amazon Breakout Novelist Award 2008: The Truck - A baby-boomer nostalgia murder mystery http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00121WDVA - Read and rate now! Melbourne, Victoria, Australia jwhit at janwhitaker.com business: http://www.janwhitaker.com personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/ commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/ Writing Lesson #54: Learn to love revision. Think of it as polishing the silver for guests. - JW, May, 2007 _ __________________ _ From cas at taz.net.au Thu Jan 31 18:20:20 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:20:20 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Security efforts hindered by untrained users In-Reply-To: <47A10953.4000603@praxis.com.au> References: <47A10953.4000603@praxis.com.au> Message-ID: <20080131072020.GI6828@taz.net.au> On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 10:33:39AM +1100, Rick Welykochy wrote: > Stilgherrian wrote: > >>> it's like their brain just switches off - they've made the decision that >>> it's too hard or too much effort (or that it's "easier" to get someone >>> else to do it for them) and they revert to being a pathetic, helpless >>> child. >> >> Yes, noticed this too. I think there must be some fundamental brain >> mechanism at work here -- the equivalent of rabbits freezing in the >> headlights, maybe? > > Try switching disciplines and see if applies to *you*. i've done this many times. i'm a jack-of-all-trades and a master of ONE (systems admin). there's lots of stuff that i've learnt because i've needed to even though i have little or no interest in it. and even more that i've learnt simply because it's interesting to me in some way. i've never had any difficulty (or even any reluctance) learning anything that's either interesting or that i need in some way. i can't imagine that there's anything i couldn't learn if i wanted to or needed to. either 'want' or 'need' are crucial, though. if neither applies then i just dont bother. at all. for instance - sport news, actor/musician/band/celebrity names (i can see an actor in 5 or more different movies before i even realise it's the same actor let alone know what their name is, and years can pass between hearing a song that i like and finding out - by chance - what it's called and who it's by, even if it's by a band i already know the name of and like....and even then i often promptly forget anyway) and similarly boring & useless stuff. i expect that if i ever actually needed to know the names of songs and bands then i'd learn them. but since i don't need to and i don't find such info interesting in itself, i don't. > Here is my example: I am a stupid idiot when it comes to company > accounting. i've had to learn accounting, both for software development and for my own business. i'll never be an expert in it, but i know more than enough for my needs, AND (most importantly) i know enough to know how & where to research the topic if i ever need to know more. it's not something i actually want to do, but i know enough to do most of it myself and to understand what my accountant is telling me. same for mechanical stuff, especially cars...i'll never ever be an expert or capable of doing more than simple things but i know enough to understand what a paid mechanic is telling me and enough to know when they're trying to bullshit me because they think i might be a sucker. IMO, that level of knowledge at minimum is mandatory for anyone who doesn't want to get ripped off by every business and tradesperson they have any dealings with. same with plumbing, both the real kind of plumbing (gas & water & pipes etc), and what i refer to as plumbing (routers, network links, cabling). i know enough to get by (actually a lot more than that for network plumbing) but i can't stand crawling around under tables or floors. that kind of thing is what plumbers (and network engineers) are for. in all three examples, it's stuff that i understand at least passably well but don't want to do myself - so i'm happy to pay someone else to do it. BUT for my own self-protection, if for no other reason, I *MUST* understand it well enough that i don't get ripped off by anyone who is willing to take advantage of my ignorance. that's 'caveat emptor' from the buyer's POV.....what i don't know can cost me a lot. ignorance is expensive. and potentially dangerous. craig -- craig sanders Unseen University had never admitted women, muttering something about problems with the plumbing, but the real reason was an unspoken dread that if women were allowed to mess around with magic they would probably be embarrassingly good at it ... -- Terry Pratchett, "The Light Fantastic" From matthew at sorbs.net Thu Jan 31 18:21:52 2008 From: matthew at sorbs.net (Matthew Sullivan) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:21:52 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Security efforts hindered by untrained users In-Reply-To: <47A0F1D7.60103@lannet.com.au> References: <47A0F1D7.60103@lannet.com.au> Message-ID: <47A17710.6060201@sorbs.net> Howard Lowndes wrote: > > > Stilgherrian wrote: >> On 31/1/08 7:51 AM, "Matthew Sullivan" wrote: >> >>> Stilgherrian wrote: >> >>>> No. Having worked a lot with relative na?ve users over the years, I >>>> can >>>> report that any dialog which gets in the way of them achieving >>>> their aim >>>> simply isn't read. Since so many dialogs are meaningless (to them), >>>> and >>>> their world does not immediately cave in, hitting "OK" is a reflex >>>> action. >>>> >>>> They click "OK" without reading what the dialog says. >>>> >>>> Even if they did read the message, because they'd be being asked >>>> for every >>>> link, the vast majority of which would be legitimate, that click >>>> would soon >>>> become reflex if it wasn't already. >>>> >>> What you have to remember is that the user doesn't see 'Ok' or 'Cancel' >>> they just see one button that says: >>> >>> "Press this to make it work." >> >> That, Sir, is EXACTLY the best way of putting it! > > Easily fixed. Put a large Cancel button in the same obvious place on > the screen, and the minuscule OK button randomly hidden elsewhere. > Netscape's ever moving 'Accept this certificate' button proved that it doesn't work. Regards, Mat From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au Thu Jan 31 18:29:19 2008 From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:29:19 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Perspective on security! [was: Security efforts hindered by untrained users] In-Reply-To: <47A1207B.6010703@iss.net.au> References: <47A10953.4000603@praxis.com.au> <47A11731.7040209@lockstep.com.au> <47A1207B.6010703@iss.net.au> Message-ID: <47A178CF.8000000@ozemail.com.au> Brenda & Link... Brenda Aynsley wrote: > Stephen Wilson wrote: > >> I'm surprised by the naked contempt displayed in many of these >> comments for regular computing users. Even the self-evident jokes in >> this thread drip with sarcasm reflecting an unhelpful air of >> superiority. >> > > Even as a long standing member of this list, I think I agree with you > Stephen, the views we express on this list tend to be elitist on many > occasions :( ...the problem isn't the existence of an elite, but its attitude. In many / most areas of invention, products get simplified to create the broadest possible market. But in technological products, complexity is first added, then justified, and those who don't enjoy or understand the complexities are then ridiculed. And the ridiculing comes from the technically elite ... Looking at the premise that "managers who don't understand computers shouldn't be managers": it depends. I don't know Frank Lowy's computer expertise, but his specialty is making money out of property, and you'd be hard put to argue incompetence in his speciality. So a universal statement is subject to erosion by exception. Even if we regard some "core skills" with computers as being unavoidable, no two experts will agree on the necessary core skills (as they relate to the ordinary user), and the list keeps getting extended by new complexities in the next round of releases. Take the statement "everybody needs to understand computer security". This is answerable at least in part by the number of experts who can't keep up. So how much security knowledge is enough for the ordinary user? Simplistic elitism doesn't help answer that question: I know enough to set *simple* security rules, but then find myself having to re-state the rules every time the damn firewall vendor sends an upgrade. I can easily understand how this could be excessively burdensome to someone who doesn't understand IP addressing, and doesn't understand that Windows Explorer has no reason to talk to the Internet (let alone the excessive number of processes that need to be managed and that's just on one box). I'll toss in an inflammatory statement of my own: saying "user education is the answer to security" is a cop-out that lets software writers, from the operating system upwards, shirk their responsibility by making fun of people who aren't "in the club". Richard > > In the early years of the Internet (c1993) I used to advocate that the > browser ought to be the 'only doorway' to the Internet and locked down > to a whitelist and as users became more aware and savvy, they'd pass a > test that would allow them to have a broader whitelist and so on ... > until they had free access cos they had sufficient nous to cope with > that level of freedom. I still think that 'protected' environments are > worth implementing, but appreciate the complexity of doing so. > > cheers > brenda > > From cas at taz.net.au Thu Jan 31 18:46:09 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:46:09 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Perspective on security! [was: Security efforts hindered by untrained users] In-Reply-To: <47A11731.7040209@lockstep.com.au> References: <47A10953.4000603@praxis.com.au> <47A11731.7040209@lockstep.com.au> Message-ID: <20080131074609.GJ6828@taz.net.au> On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 11:32:49AM +1100, Stephen Wilson wrote: > Jeez ... > >>> it's like their brain just switches off - they've made the decision that >>> it's too hard or too much effort (or that it's "easier" to get someone >>> else to do it for them) and they revert to being a pathetic, helpless >>> child. >> >> Yes, noticed this too. I think there must be some fundamental brain >> mechanism at work here -- the equivalent of rabbits freezing in the >> headlights, maybe? > > I'm surprised by the naked contempt displayed in many of these comments for > regular computing users. Even the self-evident jokes in this thread drip > with sarcasm reflecting an unhelpful air of superiority. you've obviously never worked in tech support. you get to see the dumbest of the dumb in that job (admittedly, it's a partially self-selecting sample). and it's not contempt for the "regular" computer users. it's for the stupid ones. the kind that *really* do stuff like call their support dept to complain that their cup holder is broken. > In many ways, commodity computing today mirrors the state of the automobile > industry c. 1900s. You had to be a technical wizard to get the most out of > a car, to operate it safely, to maintain it. The supply chain was still > very complicated, no one-stop-shops back then. And no traffic rules > either, or driver licenses, or road worthy certificates. The "business > case" to buy an car instead of a horse was shaky. But I digress ... ummm, hate to break it to you but you're describing computing in the the 1970s and early 1980s. that was about 25+ years ago. the field has come a very long way since then. > With regards security and usability, let's retain some perspective. We're > in the very early stages of a new technological revolution. The deep deep > knowledge that is required to safely operate computers (to make sense of > dialog boxes and security warnings etc etc etc) may well become unnecessary > in another decade. The Internet might adopt the sorts of embedded security > mechanisms that are needed to safeguard privacy and security (as opposed to > sharing physics papers as the WWW was originally intended to do). And PCs > might adopt proper security firmware (like Trusted Platform Modules) to > make them safe enough to double as ATMs (as opposed to playing video games > and writing BASIC programs as the Wintel platform was originally designed > for). that's wishful and misguided thinking. Treacherous Computing[1] has been rejected by the mass market for the same reason that they are actively rejecting DRM. they want to run what they want on *their* computers, not just what Microsoft or the RIAA or some other corporation tells them they're allowed to run. [1] http://www.fsf.org/news/treacherous.html see also http://defectivebydesign.org/ and the links at the bottom of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing "modchips" for the xbox and the ps2 & ps3 show that it's futile, anyway. if someone has physical access to their machine, they can disable or work around the restrictions - or pay someone to do it. > [Or maybe things won't get better. My fear is that software still > advances too quickly for hardware and standards to keep up. Speed of > development after all is why we have software, but it takes discipline > to engineer the stuff properly, including testing. apart from the obvious statement that discipline is required, that makes no sense at all. especially the bit about standards. the problem with standards is not that they don't keep up, it's that some software corporations (microsoft in particular) do their utmost to subvert them by stalling or corrupting standards committees, by their embrace-and-extend methodology, and by just ignoring existing standards. they don't want standards. standards = risk of competition. they want whatever they say or do to be the de-facto standard. and they want to change it at a whim so that they can screw over any potential competitor and force them into a doomed catch-up game. > I would speculate that if cars were made of software instead of > alloy, and took hours to modify instead of years, the auto industry > (including its standards and safety regulations) might have never > settled down as it has.] wait for 20 or 30 years when we have the 15th+ generation of micro-fabs like the Rapid Replicating Prototyper[3] coupled with the hardware design equivalent of the Free Software Foundation then you'll see cars (and many other things) designed to meet people's needs rather than corporate needs....and there will be good as well as bad from that kind of technology being available (which is inevitable, even though there will be increasingly shrill and desperate legislation trying to outlaw it over the next few decades) [3] http://reprap.org/ > > Meanwhile, let's approach security and usability with a blend of good > software design, testing, human factors engineering, education, support > services, cryptography and so on. And stop with the glib blame game, like > 'if the bloody users only educated themselves, it would all be OK'. users are part of the problem, but only a very small part of it. the bulk of the problem is that the software that most people use (MS Windows) is complete and utter crap. craig -- craig sanders BOFH excuse #358: struck by the Good Times virus From cas at taz.net.au Thu Jan 31 18:58:07 2008 From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:58:07 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Perspective on security! [was: Security efforts hindered by untrained users] In-Reply-To: <47A178CF.8000000@ozemail.com.au> References: <47A10953.4000603@praxis.com.au> <47A11731.7040209@lockstep.com.au> <47A1207B.6010703@iss.net.au> <47A178CF.8000000@ozemail.com.au> Message-ID: <20080131075807.GK6828@taz.net.au> On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 06:29:19PM +1100, rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au wrote: > Even if we regard some "core skills" with computers as being > unavoidable, no two experts will agree on the necessary core skills > (as they relate to the ordinary user), and the list keeps getting > extended by new complexities in the next round of releases. imo, there are only 2 core skills: 1. the ability to learn whatever you need to learn 2. the ability to recognise whatever it is that you need to learn. this applies to computing as it does to every other field of knowledge or endeavour. > I'll toss in an inflammatory statement of my own: saying "user > education is the answer to security" is a cop-out that lets software > writers, from the operating system upwards, shirk their responsibility > by making fun of people who aren't "in the club". user education isn't and wont ever be the entire answer or even a huge part of it. you can lead a user to knowledge but you can't force them to understand. user willingness to learn is part of the answer. good software is most of the answer. and no, that doesn't mean just simplifying complex stuff down to the point that even an idiot could use because that would result in security that only an idiot would be happy with. complexity is unavoidable in complex things. that should be regarded as an obvious tautology but for some bizarre reason it's regarded as unreasonable heresy when it comes to computers. craig -- craig sanders BOFH excuse #36: dynamic software linking table corrupted From swilson at lockstep.com.au Thu Jan 31 22:24:11 2008 From: swilson at lockstep.com.au (Stephen Wilson) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 22:24:11 +1100 Subject: [LINK] Perspective on security! [was: Security efforts hindered by untrained users] In-Reply-To: <20080131074609.GJ6828@taz.net.au> References: <47A10953.4000603@praxis.com.au> <47A11731.7040209@lockstep.com.au> <20080131074609.GJ6828@taz.net.au> Message-ID: <47A1AFDB.7060500@lockstep.com.au> Craig Sanders wrote: >> [Steve Wilson wrote:] In many ways, commodity computing today mirrors the state of the automobile >> industry c. 1900s. You had to be a technical wizard to get the most out of >> a car, to operate it safely, to maintain it. The supply chain was still >> very complicated, no one-stop-shops back then. And no traffic rules >> either, or driver licenses, or road worthy certificates. The "business >> case" to buy an car instead of a horse was shaky. But I digress ... > > ummm, hate to break it to you but you're describing computing in the the > 1970s and early 1980s. that was about 25+ years ago. the field has come > a very long way since then. Really? Bugger all has changed fundamentally. The recent Link thread about software as a profession versus software as a craft proves how far we still have to go. The very fact that security and user training provokes so much discussion also suggests that the IT sector is still embryonic. These are complex issues that have yet to play out. The Microsoft versus Open Source debate may run for years to come, and its outcome may utterly change the landscape. You would want it to! Moving along, I'm fascinated that on the one hand Craig Sanders said: > Treacherous Computing[1] has been rejected by the mass market ... But on the other hand: > the bulk of the problem is that the software that most people use (MS > Windows) is complete and utter crap. Spot the inconsistencies? You cannot bemoan the market's infatuation with Microsoft but then give it credit for 'rejecting' Trusted Computing [which was itself rejected by big bad Microsoft for quite a while]. Surely it's way too early to rush to judge Trusted Computing. In any case, blaming Microsoft is really blaming users, to follow the logic of many on the List who seem to think that if only users knew better, they would surely choose Unix. Cheers, Steve Wilson. From darrell.burkey at anu.edu.au Thu Jan 31 22:53:43 2008 From: darrell.burkey at anu.edu.au (Darrell Burkey) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 22:53:43 +1100 (EST) Subject: [LINK] Perspective on security! [was: Security efforts hindered by untrained users] In-Reply-To: <47A1AFDB.7060500@lockstep.com.au> References: <47A10953.4000603@praxis.com.au> <47A11731.7040209@lockstep.com.au> <20080131074609.GJ6828@taz.net.au> <47A1AFDB.7060500@lockstep.com.au> Message-ID: I haven't had time to catch up with this entire thread so forgive me if I'm off the mark a bit. >From what I have read I think Bruce Schneier's keynote speech at linux.conf 2008 last Mon might be of interest. See/hear http://linux.conf.au/programme/keynotes for an interesting take on 'feeling secure'. Cheers. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Darrell Burkey, UNIX Systems Administrator Research School of Pacific & Asian History College of Asia & the Pacific Australian National University Ph: +61-2-6125 4160