From link at todd.inoz.com  Mon Jan  1 12:21:40 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Mon Jan  1 12:23:02 2007
Subject: [LINK] Ramping Spam Rampant - again
In-Reply-To: <459728A0.1080803@lannet.com.au>
References: <45970CFC.1010901@lannet.com.au>
	<5ii0ro$20mapu@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
	<459725DB.1030801@lannet.com.au> <459728A0.1080803@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070101121925.0395dad8@wheresmymailserver.com>

At 02:04 PM 31/12/2006, Howard Lowndes wrote:
>>I think spam has got out of the realm of the pimply faced youth - it's 
>>more in the realm of organised crime.
>
>IMO anti-spam legislation is pretty pointless.  When are governments going 
>to take the stick to the other end and start beating those with buggered 
>systems, or force their ISPs to take the big stick to them. Slapping a few 
>ISPs with a clue stick would make most of them wake up to themselves - but 
>then, it might reduce their traffic revenue and not too many governments 
>will take that tack.  :(

Actually as good as that sounds, that's really stepping into the world of 
Orwellianism.  We really don't want the Government making legislation to 
punish or prosecute end users for ignorance.

And we don't want end users become knowledgeable enough to be stupid and 
dangerous.

The best governance is for Government to prosecute the people who cause the 
SPAM, not the innocent people who happened to be used.

The problem is Law Enforcement doesn't care about Mums and Dads being 
affected by SPAM, they will only prosecute SPAMers who hit Government 
Agencies with traffic.

<sigh>




From link at todd.inoz.com  Mon Jan  1 12:18:42 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Mon Jan  1 12:23:07 2007
Subject: [LINK] Increased virus activity
In-Reply-To: <5ii0ro$20o4h4@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
References: <5ii0ro$20o4h4@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070101121657.0395ddf0@wheresmymailserver.com>

At 05:52 PM 31/12/2006, Jan Whitaker wrote:
>Linkers,
>On top of spam, I am seeing more attached executables with subject lines 
>like Happy new year. Wouldn't surprise me if the increase in spam is a 
>result of these, but I'm not going to open them to find out! Might be a 
>sign of DSL and broadband subscriptions for Christmas presents.

I suspect most of these are zapped by my sendmail filters looking for 
attachments that meet certain signatures and rejecting them.

You'll note that most of these attachments are 30kb or 79kb zip files.

I automatically destroy any screen saver files, bat files or com files.  If 
someone has a need to send them to me, not only will it have been arranged 
prior, but they'd be smart enough to use ftp and upload it to my ftp server :)

Jan, keep on deleting :)  Maybe add a filter to your Email proggy to just 
drop them into oblivion?


From link at todd.inoz.com  Mon Jan  1 15:22:30 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Mon Jan  1 15:24:07 2007
Subject: [LINK] Spam, Virus and Trojans - Statistics
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070101145000.06dbe018@mail.ah.net>


Hi all.  Just in keeping with the current thread on SPAM, I've been doing 
my usual cleaning up my Euroda Mail Boxes (thank goodness they are mbox 
format!) and have some summary statistic to announce :)

I filter inbound mail at my mail server, ay my delivery point and within 
Eudora.  The goal is that only genuine mail gets to me.  Mail lists are all 
subscribed to with a unique email addresses specific to that list, I use 
unique addresses for most business contact.  Only people I converse with in 
private are consolidated into generic user addresses such as "adam@"

Many links I see use my address' in domains todd.inoz.com and ah.net which 
is kinda interesting.

In December 2004 I implemented TMDA (Challenge/Response) on my mail server 
and applied it to two of my accounts.  I have a bypass account that isn't 
processed by TMDA.

I use a virtual mail system managed by Sendmail.  So each unique addresses 
is pointed to a local delivery address or mechanism.  I haven't done a 
parse over the virtual tables to see how many addresses are listed or what 
proportion of addresses go to with delivery point.  If anyone is 
interested, email me and I'll update the date.

The results are of those trapped or filtered but retained within 
Eudora.  Many are probably rejected at the initial connection for delivery.

VIRUS
-----

I thought I'd start with Virus type emails.  Be the virus attached or 
included within the email itself.  It might run with Outlook, but as I 
don't use it I can filter it.

2005		Received 42 virii
2006		Zero


TROJANS
-------
These are applications attached to which mostly you are invited to open the 
attachment to view or action the contents.

YEAR	MESSAGES	KB
2000	  14		18K
2001	No Records
2002	No Records
2003	No Records
2004	 355 		709K
2005	  93		567K
2006	  52		229K

** The entries in 2000, I haven't looked at, but suspect they may be 2006 
messages that have fake dates but were received in 2005 or 2006.

BLOCK
-------
These are messages that meet the criteria of unsolicted SPAM.  Unlike Craig 
Saunders who calls spam anything he didn't create himself, I do not 
consider a message from a person on a mail list I subscribe to as 
SPAM.  These are messages that relate to penis enlarging, having better sex 
with your partner, or making my boob bigger.    I tend to think that making 
my boobs bigger might not be in my masculine best interests.  Although in 
the case of my wife, she find the penis enlarging messages a bit odd, she 
hasn't considered a sex change.  These are messages that made it through 
ALL FILTERS

YEAR	Messages	K
1998<	    64		   216
1999	   757		 3,283
2000	 1,086		 5,276
2001	 6,408		41,491
2002	10,765		60,701
2003	 5,825		26,280
2004/2	 2,027		 4,759	(Jan - 30 June)
2004/2  7,572		15,366	(Jul - 31 Dec)
2005/F	   543		 3,913  (Received in 2005, but Nil or fake date)
2005/2	   254		 1,313	(Jan - 30 June)
2005/2	    76		   336	(Jul - 31 Dec)
2006	 4,964		20,630	(Full year)	
2006/F     28		   106  (Recieved in 2006, but Nil of fake date)

*2003 implemented broader RBL and Sendmail rejecting
*2004 Dec - implemented TMDA filtering

It's interesting to see the HUGE increase during 2006 or messages that 
bypass traditional and new design filters.


BOUNCES
-------
These are bounce notifications from the Mailer-Daemon.  Some may in fact be 
legitimate bounces from messages sent to incorrect typed addresses on my 
server, this would be rare. Most are messages that my server may have tried 
to send back to a fake address and failed.

YEAR	Msgs	K
1998	   26	    81
1999	  210	 2,103
2000   1,020	 3,678
2001     202	   863
2002	  957	 9,890
2003	  655	 7,688
2004	1,257	 9,861
2005	6,645	33,214
2006	9,155	79,790

* A noticeable increase in bounced messages is noticed after TMDA is 
implemented which sends a message to the sender asking them to 
verify.  It's fairly conclusive that most of these messages which bypass 
Sendmail Filtering, RBL Filtering and other Anti SPAM measures getting to 
the point of delivery, are from invalid addresses.

TMDA-BOUNCE
-----------
These are messages specifically created as Bounced by TMDA software.  I 
only started collecting these in 2006.


HTML MESSAGES
-------------
I filter all messages that contain HTML.  Some are legitimate, some are 
not.  I don't have much time to spare sorting through them so generally 
look for senders I know - many are Linkers! I take out the legitimate ones, 
so they aren't included :)

YEAR	Msgs	K
2003	 7,607	27,766	
2004	23,994	85,769
2005	Missing
2006	Not Processed
....
2006	 1,028	14,776	(Mix of mostly legitimate and minimal HTML SPAM)



YEAR	Msgs	K
2006	1,491	3,292



ATTACHMENTS
-----------
Attachments are anything that didn't fit into the above.  Mostly ZIP, COM 
and some Screen Savers that weren't detected as Trojans

YEAR	Msgs	K
2004	1,508	4,071
2005	1,038	5,746
2006	1,289	4,785	(About 5% are mis-sorted messages)





From link at todd.inoz.com  Mon Jan  1 16:02:42 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Mon Jan  1 16:03:20 2007
Subject: [LINK] Ramping Spam Rampant - again
In-Reply-To: <45986E1B.5090406@lannet.com.au>
References: <45970CFC.1010901@lannet.com.au>
	<5ii0ro$20mapu@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
	<459725DB.1030801@lannet.com.au> <459728A0.1080803@lannet.com.au>
	<6.2.0.14.0.20070101121925.0395dad8@wheresmymailserver.com>
	<45986E1B.5090406@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070101155650.0214fc30@wheresmymailserver.com>

At 01:12 PM 1/01/2007, Howard Lowndes wrote:


>Adam Todd wrote:
>>At 02:04 PM 31/12/2006, Howard Lowndes wrote:
>>>>I think spam has got out of the realm of the pimply faced youth - it's 
>>>>more in the realm of organised crime.
>>>
>>>IMO anti-spam legislation is pretty pointless.  When are governments 
>>>going to take the stick to the other end and start beating those with 
>>>buggered systems, or force their ISPs to take the big stick to them. 
>>>Slapping a few ISPs with a clue stick would make most of them wake up to 
>>>themselves - but then, it might reduce their traffic revenue and not too 
>>>many governments will take that tack.  :(
>>Actually as good as that sounds, that's really stepping into the world of 
>>Orwellianism.  We really don't want the Government making legislation to 
>>punish or prosecute end users for ignorance.
>
>If you drive an unserviceable car, then that's an offence in law as well 
>as the possibility of civil damages if it causes damage; how is operating 
>a borked computer any different?

Yes true.  Assuming you know the care is unserviceable.

But should then, the Mechanic you last used to service your car also become 
liable and subject to a Criminal offence for failing to ensure it's serviced.

So what you are really saying is that Harvy Norman and the Good Guys should 
be guilty of a criminal offence of selling a device that can be used for 
the purpose of committing a criminal offence?

>>And we don't want end users become knowledgeable enough to be stupid and 
>>dangerous.
>
>Similar analogy about driving a car.  Knowledge is required - IMO not 
>enough and not tested frequently enough.

God you don't want people knowing how cars work.  Really.

>As a private pilot I have to have a comprehensive test every two years and 
>I have to maintain a currency standard as well, and as a private pilot I 
>am far less likely to do damage to others than I am as a driver on, say, 
>the Hume Highway.

Flying is considerably more difficult and dangerous than driving a car. You 
can only crash into someone going, generally forwards, in a car.  In a 
plane, you can fall out of the sky, crash taking off, crash landing ...

And to be honest I'd prefer to have an intimate knowledge about a plane and 
how it works and check all the critical things BEFORE I taxi off, than to 
find out when I'm plummeting to earth!

But then I did 26 hours of flight training, so I know the difference 
between a plane and a car and I'll drive a car in my sleep any day!

>>The best governance is for Government to prosecute the people who cause 
>>the SPAM, not the innocent people who happened to be used.
>
>The controls need to be enforced from both ends.

Nope, it's simpler.  Government must be willing to prosecute SPAMMERS who 
affect Joe Citizen, not just those that affect Government Agencies.

I have too many examples of where Police enforce and prosecute relentlessly 
an allegation made by a Government Agency, but when you make the same 
allegation to which the Police have been a witness, they do nothing.

If you want prosecution, become a Government Agency.  If you want to be Joe 
Citizen and prosecuted, well.

>>The problem is Law Enforcement doesn't care about Mums and Dads being 
>>affected by SPAM, they will only prosecute SPAMers who hit Government 
>>Agencies with traffic.
>
>Then why aren't they doing something about it - someone from CSIRO said 
>that they have a 97% reject rate at 30 hits/sec.

Because someone at CSIRO hasn't made a formal complaint and probably 
doesn't have the authority to do so.


From kauer at biplane.com.au  Tue Jan  2 00:24:38 2007
From: kauer at biplane.com.au (Karl Auer)
Date: Tue Jan  2 00:25:14 2007
Subject: [LINK] OFF TOPIC: Reliable hardware vendor?
Message-ID: <1167657878.19380.47.camel@localhost.localdomain>

It's a long time since I bought hardware in Oz. I now find myself in
need of a PCMCIA (aka CardBus) wireless adapter (802.11b/g at least).
Has to work natively under Linux (no NDIS driver shenanigans), so
preferably an Atheros chipset. 

Any recommendations on someone reliable? Or on a good card?

Probably best to send replies off-list :-)

Regards, K.

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/~kauer/                  +61-428-957160 (mob)

From stephen at melbpc.org.au  Tue Jan  2 02:47:26 2007
From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley)
Date: Tue Jan  2 02:47:41 2007
Subject: [LINK] NASA  brain-computer interfaces 
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070102021559.01aaad98@melbpc.org.au>

Hi all,

The NASA Intelligent Systems Division (http://ti.arc.nasa.gov/)
are sponsoring some interesting research.  One recent report
depicts two 'brain-computer interfaces' called 'Target Practice'
(of course) and 'Think Pointer'. Both apparently work quite well:

"Brain-computer interfaces for 1-D and 2-D cursor control: designs using volitional control of the EEG spectrum or steady-state visual evoked potentials."

Trejo LJ,  Rosipal R,  and Matthews B.  NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA 94035, USA. ltrejo@quasarusa.com 
Published: IEEE Trans Neural Syst Rehabil Eng. June 2006.

We have developed and tested two electroencephalogram (EEG)-based brain-computer interfaces (BCI) for users to control a cursor on a computer display. Our system uses an adaptive algorithm, based on kernel partial least squares classification (KPLS), to associate patterns in multichannel EEG frequency spectra with cursor controls. 

Our first BCI, Target Practice, is a system for one-dimensional device control, in which participants use biofeedback to learn voluntary control of their EEG spectra. Target Practice uses a KPLS classifier to map power spectra of 62-electrode EEG signals to rightward or leftward position of a moving cursor on a computer display.  Three subjects learned to control motion of a cursor on a video display in multiple blocks of 60 trials over periods of up to six weeks. The best subject's average skill in correct selection of the cursor direction grew from 58% to 88% after 13 training sessions..

The second BCI, Think Pointer, is a system for two-dimensional cursor control. Steady-state visual evoked potentials (SSVEP) are triggered by four flickering checkerboard stimuli located in narrow strips at each edge of the display. The user attends to one of the four beacons to initiate motion in the desired direction. The SSVEP signals are recorded from 12 electrodes located over the occipital region. A KPLS classifier is individually calibrated to map multichannel frequency bands of the SSVEP signals to right-left or up-down motion of a cursor on a computer display. The display stops moving when the user attends to a central fixation point.. 

Training of the classifier requires about 3 min.. Across subjects and sessions, control accuracy ranged from 80% to 100% correct with lags of 1-5 s for movement initiation and turning.   We have also developed a realistic demonstration of our system for control of a moving map display.  
(PMID: 16792300)
--

Cheers all ..
Stephen Loosley
Melbourne, Australia
.


From link at todd.inoz.com  Tue Jan  2 18:00:19 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Tue Jan  2 18:00:53 2007
Subject: [LINK] OFFTOPIC:  Legal Assistance in QLD
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070102175349.02edf838@mail.ah.net>


Hi I was just wondering if any of the QLD based Linkers (or others who know 
people in QLD) can help me.

I need to find a Barrister (or lawyer) in QLD who can assist a family in 
gaining the return of the child, taken into care by Child Safety on 22 
December just before Christmas.

They are a young family, first marriage, first child, 13 months old.

Removed for "assessment to determine if the child is in need of care" 
because he had a runny nose (literally), a bit of diarrhea that occurred 
after following medical advice and because the parents are Vegan.

This is a very straight case managed by an over zealous 24 year old "just 
left uni out to save a child's life" women who has no children and only 
learned from text books.

(Remember Suzanne and I were accused of parenting by Parenting books!)

If you can help in this area or with support for the family who are from WA 
and only been in QLD for four months, please contact me on +61 4 3380 4177

Thanks.





From stephen at melbpc.org.au  Wed Jan  3 01:44:25 2007
From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley)
Date: Wed Jan  3 01:44:39 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <C1BD8BA3.5E8%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <200612310107.kBV16t27003250@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
	<C1BD8BA3.5E8%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070103002618.01d2f808@melbpc.org.au>

At 03:45 PM 31/12/2006, Stewart wrote:

>Stephen comments on 11 and 12Hz claims on cellphone pulsation.

Yes, there's an emerging interest in this high-end Alpha EEG frequency,
along with the lower Delta frequency em-fields created by the body/brain.

Eg, there are signs of a Delta 'standing-wave' with a 'cortical-resonance'.

Alpha waves, imho, may look the goods for the core brainwave frequency.

For eg 'Spectral changes (amplitude) in the alpha range have been reliably
related to attentional load, cognitive arousal, and mental effort' pubmed.gov
ID 17010944. Alpha waves appear weaker in studies with retarded people.
For example 'The results of our study demonstrate that indices of alpha2SP
may be considered as objective criteria of delayed mental maturation.' 
(PM ID: 16252384)

>For handsets, the science is too erratic, too bad, and many of the
>scientists are too stupid and narrow-minded.  And some of them are
>untrustworthy. In the circumstances, the fence looks pretty good to me.

I suppose. It's a pity for all science there's apparently little agreement.

Cheers Stewart
Stephen Loosley
Victoria, Australia

From Fred.Pilcher at act.gov.au  Wed Jan  3 08:28:42 2007
From: Fred.Pilcher at act.gov.au (Pilcher, Fred)
Date: Wed Jan  3 08:28:53 2007
Subject: [LINK] World Domination 201
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070103002618.01d2f808@melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72062B7F18@cal066.act.gov.au>

An interesting treatise on the potential of Linux to take over the world by 2008.

http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/world-domination/world-domination-201.html#id247970

Happy new year, all.

Fred 
  
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From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au  Wed Jan  3 10:02:34 2007
From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry)
Date: Wed Jan  3 10:02:43 2007
Subject: [LINK] Spam, Virus and Trojans - Statistics
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20070101145000.06dbe018@mail.ah.net>
References: <6.2.0.14.0.20070101145000.06dbe018@mail.ah.net>
Message-ID: <2EC449EA-F522-47BE-A752-0FEB84594D3A@tony-barry.emu.id.au>

Adam

On 01/01/2007, at 3:22 PM, Adam Todd wrote:

> These are messages that meet the criteria of unsolicted SPAM.   
> Unlike Craig Saunders who calls spam anything he didn't create  
> himself, I do not consider a message from a person on a mail list I  
> subscribe to as SPAM.

I don't want to start the new year off with a brawl between you and  
Craig (assuming you meant Sanders not Saunders?).


But to linkers one and all I wish you a very

		Happy New Year

Tony

phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au
http://tony-barry.emu.id.au


From SHENDERS at nla.gov.au  Wed Jan  3 10:28:06 2007
From: SHENDERS at nla.gov.au (Sandra Henderson)
Date: Wed Jan  3 10:28:15 2007
Subject: [LINK] Pandora?
Message-ID: <ADF6CFBF6F7B224BAD73E67A7F21EA3A01ECBE5A@gimli.shire.nla.gov.au>

Michael
PANDORA doesn't ignore sites hosted outside Australia, and doesn't
ignore Australian sites which aren't in the .au domain.  There are
examples of both in PANDORA.  PANDORA is a labour-intensive operation,
which is why its impossible to capture ALL Australian sites - all files
are checked for completeness and functionality, to ensure the harvest
has been accurate. This level of hand-crafting is not possible on a much
larger scale. PANDORA is consistently lauded by the web archiving
community for its high standards and achievements. 
Conscious of the very selective nature of the PANDORA Archive, the NLA
also contracted the Internet Archive to undertake two comprehensive
harvests of Australian sites.  These harvests, done in 2005 and 2006,
are not available to the public - the copyright situation, for example,
is tricky, which is why PANDORA files are only made available with
permission of the publishers. The files from the two web harvests are
installed here at the NLA - the last one resulted in over 19 terabytes
of data, from 1.2 million sites (over 500 million files), and the
Internet Archive has also prepared a full text index - this index across
the two years of files was the largest the Internet Archive has ever
undertaken.  It does mean we do have, for the future, two large
snapshots of the Australian web (and I understand the lists of seed URLS
we provided also ensure we get relevant non .au sites)
  


Sandra Henderson
Manager, Research, Coordination Support Branch
National Library of Australia
CANBERRA  ACT 2600
Phone: +61 2 6262 1481
Fax: +61 2 6273 2545
Email: shenders@nla.gov.au

-----Original Message-----
From: link-bounces@anumail0.anu.edu.au
[mailto:link-bounces@anumail0.anu.edu.au] On Behalf Of Michael Still
Posted At: Thursday, 28 December 2006 12:38 PM
Posted To: Link List
Conversation: [LINK] Pandora?
Subject: Re: [LINK] Pandora?


Adam Todd wrote:
> At 08:07 AM 28/12/2006, Michael Still wrote:
>> Eric Scheid wrote:
>>
>>> no idea if the sitemaps protocol is supported by Pandora yet.
>>
>> Isn't it irrelevant? Pandora claim to be a "selective index" (the 
>> usefulness of such a thing seems low to me, but anyway), and probably

>> wouldn't include anything new.
>>
>> http://pandora.nla.gov.au/selectionguidelinesallpartners.html
> 
> Pandora is a great resource.  Not every web site on the Internet that 
> holds Australian Public interest gets fully archives elsewhere.

Sure. In that case though they should do it properly and do all sights. 
Or partner with someone who can if they can't.

> The Internet Archive Project is probably one of the few resources that

> tries hard with limited resources to do such.
> 
> If you have a web site that has a level of public interest, or future 
> historic  value or even a site that has information that may one day 
> vanish - say when you move house and turn off your server, then 
> Pandora is a place you can approach if they haven't already approached

> you, to at least ensure that something of the fastest vanishing 
> records in history might be preserved.

I asked to be included. I was. Then they dropped me without warning. 
They're also flawed in that their definition of "Australian content" 
ignores (last time I checked):

  - content hosted outside of Australia
  - content on a non-.au domain

There are _lots_ of Australians who host overseas and who don't use a
.au domain, in both cases because the costs of doing it locally are
disproportionally high.

Why not use whois data for such an index? Why not let people opt in?

> I'm sure as time passes, the NLA will find ways to add more resources 
> and storage to the archive facility and increase and broaden the
storage.

Until Pandora is a complete archive of all "Australian" content (for
some workable definition), it will be largely useless. Worse, it
encourages others to make assumptions based on bad input data...

> I'd like to think that Pandora archives all the Political web sites 
> for each of those Running Candidates that flings so much crude on 
> their websites that never gets printed in a news paper.  Those things 
> can come back to bite later :)
> 
> Be nice if Pandora could also archive all School based web sites.  
> They change so often that history and commendations vanish from the 
> eyes of the world as fast as they are created.
> 
> Everyone deserves to be noted.  Time Magazine proved that!

Ok, so then they should do that.

Mikal
_______________________________________________
Link mailing list
Link@mailman.anu.edu.au
http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link

From link at todd.inoz.com  Wed Jan  3 11:32:10 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Wed Jan  3 11:34:41 2007
Subject: [LINK] Pandora?
In-Reply-To: <ADF6CFBF6F7B224BAD73E67A7F21EA3A01ECBE5A@gimli.shire.nla.g ov.au>
References: <ADF6CFBF6F7B224BAD73E67A7F21EA3A01ECBE5A@gimli.shire.nla.gov.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070103112550.02e1ad58@wheresmymailserver.com>

At 10:28 AM 3/01/2007, Sandra Henderson wrote:
>Michael
>PANDORA doesn't ignore sites hosted outside Australia, and doesn't
>ignore Australian sites which aren't in the .au domain.  There are
>examples of both in PANDORA.  PANDORA is a labour-intensive operation,
>which is why its impossible to capture ALL Australian sites - all files
>are checked for completeness and functionality, to ensure the harvest
>has been accurate.

Ergh, I dunna envy you (and the Pandora team) Sandra!  There is a lot of 
work to go to archive properly.

>This level of hand-crafting is not possible on a much
>larger scale. PANDORA is consistently lauded by the web archiving
>community for its high standards and achievements.
>Conscious of the very selective nature of the PANDORA Archive, the NLA
>also contracted the Internet Archive to undertake two comprehensive
>harvests of Australian sites.  These harvests, done in 2005 and 2006,
>are not available to the public - the copyright situation, for example,
>is tricky,

Tell me where to sign!

Seriously.  Although I ensure archiving of our web sites and public access 
information here, if my resources vanish, so does the information.

Internet Archive and Pandora are VITAL as library store houses of history 
that is there one moment and gone the next.

OK I've had my web sites and public access information online since the 
early 1990's and I'm still here.  Not bad when you think about it.

But with up and coming relocations and new offices being set up around the 
world, a change in my career path and new goals and aspirations, much of my 
Internet History is going to vanish and along with that, much information 
collected and gathered in the public interest and published.

I'll try and "house it" in an all in one location but it's not always going 
to be easy for me to do.

I've also used Internet Archive to recover our oldest web sites which we 
updated without giving a thought to the mere fact they really should have 
been burned to CD for archival purposes.

I use to see the Internet as an evolutionary process, not a historic process.

Now I realise that history is the discovery of the evolution process and 
keep more accurate archives.

I don't want the world in 2 million years to be trying to speculate what I 
did, how and when!  I'd rather give it to them in some form!


>which is why PANDORA files are only made available with
>permission of the publishers. The files from the two web harvests are
>installed here at the NLA - the last one resulted in over 19 terabytes
>of data, from 1.2 million sites (over 500 million files),

CRUMBS!

>and the Internet Archive has also prepared a full text index - this index 
>across the two years of files was the largest the Internet Archive has ever
>undertaken.

It's quite scary when you think about it.

>It does mean we do have, for the future, two large
>snapshots of the Australian web (and I understand the lists of seed URLS
>we provided also ensure we get relevant non .au sites)

As I said - where do we sign?

Especially as this year AJ's web site is going to take on a whole new look 
and form!  We'll still have the old version running online.  (Pandora as 
far as I know already has an older snapshot of AJ's web site!)

And we've got two new "Drama" sites coming soon.


From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au  Wed Jan  3 14:14:20 2007
From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry)
Date: Wed Jan  3 14:14:34 2007
Subject: [LINK] Librarians stake their future on open source
In-Reply-To: <458DD321.3000805@lannet.com.au>
References: <458DD321.3000805@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <9025BAE8-E23F-41A7-85E2-DEDC14EA4981@tony-barry.emu.id.au>


On 24/12/2006, at 12:08 PM, Howard Lowndes wrote:

> A group of librarians at the Georgia Public Library Service has  
> developed an open source, enterprise-class library management  
> system that may revolutionize the way large-scale libraries are run.


There is quite a lot going on in the area of open source for libraries.

See <http://www.oss4lib.org/>.

Tony

Feral Librarian | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au
P: 02 6241 7659 | tony@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
M: 04 1242 0397 | tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au



From grove at zeta.org.au  Wed Jan  3 16:28:07 2007
From: grove at zeta.org.au (grove@zeta.org.au)
Date: Wed Jan  3 16:28:19 2007
Subject: [LINK] More persistence of information.....
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701031624560.28989@zathras.uws.edu.au>

The Onion got this one right.....

Bush: 'Our Long National Nightmare Of Peace And Prosperity Is Finally Over'

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28784


Scary......... ;)


rachel

-- 
Rachel Polanskis                 Kingswood, Greater Western Sydney, Australia
grove@zeta.org.au                http://www.zeta.org.au/~grove/grove.html
 	"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security,
 	deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin, 1759
From brd at iimetro.com.au  Wed Jan  3 18:01:47 2007
From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn)
Date: Wed Jan  3 18:02:00 2007
Subject: [LINK] More persistence of information.....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701031624560.28989@zathras.uws.edu.au>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701031624560.28989@zathras.uws.edu.au>
Message-ID: <459B54DB.1060902@iimetro.com.au>

I didn't realise just how scary it was until I followed the link and 
discovered that it was written in January 2001 and includes the following:

<quote>
During the 40-minute speech, Bush also promised to bring an end to the 
severe war drought that plagued the nation under Clinton, assuring 
citizens that the U.S. will engage in at least one Gulf War-level armed 
conflict in the next four years.

"You better believe we're going to mix it up with somebody at some point 
during my administration," said Bush, who plans a 250 percent boost in 
military spending. "Unlike my predecessor, I am fully committed to 
putting soldiers in battle situations. Otherwise, what is the point of 
even having a military?"
</quote>

That whole article is one amazing piece of satire, bordering on the spooky.

Thanks Rachel

grove@zeta.org.au wrote:

> The Onion got this one right.....
> 
> Bush: 'Our Long National Nightmare Of Peace And Prosperity Is Finally Over'
> 
> http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28784
> 
> 
> Scary......... ;)
> 
> 
> rachel
> 

-- 

Regards
brd

Bernard Robertson-Dunn
Sydney Australia
brd@iimetro.com.au


From link at todd.inoz.com  Thu Jan  4 13:55:36 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Thu Jan  4 13:56:07 2007
Subject: [LINK] Who needs a copyright legal proceeding against a
 Multinational ...
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070104135442.02fdae50@mail.ah.net>


Who needs a copyright legal proceeding against a multinational when you 
have Internet and the worlds media spreading the word for you!





Band says Coke ripped off their song and video

    * 
<http://www.smh.com.au/cgi-bin/common/popupEmailArticle.pl?path=/articles/2007/01/04/1167777185946.html>Email 

    * Print
    * 
<http://www.smh.com.au/news/music/soft-drinks-hard-sell/2007/01/04/1167777185946.html#>Normal 
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<http://www.smh.com.au/news/music/soft-drinks-hard-sell/2007/01/04/1167777185946.html#>Large 
font
January 4, 2007 - 8:30AM
AdvertisementAdvertisement

They describe themselves as musicians who make "happy, bouncy" tunes, but a 
copyright dispute with a multinational company has flattened the London 
band's upbeat mood.

The band - called 7 Seconds of Love - have taken on soft-drink giant 
Coca-Cola over what they say was unauthorised use of their song, Ninja, and 
the video that goes with it.

A commercial, made in Argentina for South American audiences, appears to 
use the song to advertise Coca-Cola Light. The unsigned band learned of the 
advertisement when a fan asked about it.

The discovery, lead singer Joel Veitch said, led to "righteous fury 
followed by deep irritation".

"Initially, we didn't think much about it, because we don't get Argentine 
television here," Veitch said. "It was when it turned up on the internet 
that we went, 'Oh my God.' "

"To sound like us is OK. To look like us is OK. But it's the two together 
where it becomes a problem," he said.

The ska group, a form of Jamaican music, has no desire to take Coca-Cola to 
court, Veitch said, and could not really afford to wage a legal war because 
of its "extremely shallow pockets" and the fact that all band members have 
day jobs.

In a statement quoted by Sky News in Britain, Coca-Cola said the 
advertisement was done by a local agency, which told the company that it 
was original.

"We have acted in good faith in deciding to air the television commercial," 
the statement was quoted as saying. "Therefore, we are surprised by the 
alleged claim and deeply regret being associated to this unusual and 
unexpected debate."

Veitch said that 7 Seconds of Love wanted to reach a sensible settlement 
with Coca-Cola.

"They could have just called us," Veitch said, "and we would have happily 
made it for them."

From jwhit at janwhitaker.com  Fri Jan  5 09:19:18 2007
From: jwhit at janwhitaker.com (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Fri Jan  5 09:22:49 2007
Subject: [LINK] vista critique
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$22cevu@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

A case of unexpected consequences?
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt

            A Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection
            ===================================================

                 Peter Gutmann, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
         http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
                      Last updated 28 December 2006
        Distributed under the Creative Commons license (see Appendix)

     (A note to readers: The reaction to what started as an obscure
      technical post to a security mailing list has been rather unexpected
      and overwhelming, so I'm totally buried in Vista email at the moment.
      Please be patient when expecting replies, and apologies if I can't
      reply to all messages).

Executive Summary
-----------------

Windows Vista includes an extensive reworking of core OS elements in order to
provide content protection for so-called "premium content", typically HD data
from Blu-Ray and HD-DVD sources.  Providing this protection incurs
considerable costs in terms of system performance, system stability, technical
support overhead, and hardware and software cost.  These issues affect not
only users of Vista but the entire PC industry, since the effects of the
protection measures extend to cover all hardware and software that will ever
come into contact with Vista, even if it's not used directly with Vista (for
example hardware in a Macintosh computer or on a Linux server).  This document
analyses the cost involved in Vista's content protection, and the collateral
damage that this incurs throughout the computer industry.

Executive Executive Summary
---------------------------

The Vista Content Protection specification could very well constitute the
longest suicide note in history [Note A].

[snip]

Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From brd at iimetro.com.au  Fri Jan  5 10:04:28 2007
From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn)
Date: Fri Jan  5 10:04:39 2007
Subject: [LINK] vista critique
In-Reply-To: <5ii0ro$22cevu@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
References: <5ii0ro$22cevu@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <459D87FC.8090509@iimetro.com.au>

Jan Whitaker wrote:
> A case of unexpected consequences?
> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt

I'm still trying to make sense of Microsoft/IDC's claim that Vista is 
worth $40bn to EC economies.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/09/14/microsoft_eu_idc/
Published Thursday 14th September 2006 18:32 GMT

<quote>
Microsoft is touting the contribution of Windows Vista to EC economics 
in its latest attempt to persuade regulators to go easy on the operating 
system.

A report by tech analyst firm IDC, sponsored by Microsoft, estimates 
that Windows Vista will drive $40bn in economic activity and create 
100,000 new jobs in six European countries next year when it supposedly 
ships. Vista will be installed on 30 million PCs in Denmark, France, 
Germany, Poland, Spain and the UK in its first year.
</quote>

Isn't all this activity just around upgrading an operating system? 
Nothing of any use or value is created - just economic activity.

I suppose it gets back to a discussion we had on link many years ago 
about the way the the UN measures economic benefit as any activity - 
including oil spills, nuclear accidents, earthquakes, tsunamis etc.

-- 

Regards
brd

Bernard Robertson-Dunn
Sydney Australia
brd@iimetro.com.au


From cas at taz.net.au  Fri Jan  5 10:57:21 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Fri Jan  5 10:57:18 2007
Subject: [LINK] vista critique
In-Reply-To: <459D87FC.8090509@iimetro.com.au>
References: <5ii0ro$22cevu@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
	<459D87FC.8090509@iimetro.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070104235721.GF26390@taz.net.au>

On Fri, Jan 05, 2007 at 10:04:28AM +1100, Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote:
> Isn't all this activity just around upgrading an operating system? 
> Nothing of any use or value is created - just economic activity.

you're making the false assumption that bean-counters actually care
whether anything of any use or value is created. it is economic activity
that matters.

take, for example, the aluminium smelting industry in australia. if
you analyse the figures, it actually costs us more to have it than to
not have it (i.e. there is no profit for australia, it's a net loss.)

it would be billions of dollars cheaper (plus use a lot less electricity
- about 15% of australia's entire electricity consumption and thus about
5.9% of greenhouse gas emissions - and a lot less water) to just give
all the workers employed in the industry (all 5500 or so of them) $40K
or more per year and import the relatively small amount of aluminium
that we actually need (about 340000 tonnes IIRC, about $850M worth)

btw, i picked that figure of $40K because the direct, non-hidden
subsidies to the aluminium industry equate to about $40K per worker per
year. that's a very expensive job creation program. it would be cheaper
and far more effective to spend some or all of that money (over $2.2bn)
on training and development of other industries, things that were a net
gain for the country rather than a net loss.


but the beancounters and economists say that it is a good thing to have
the aluminium smelter because of the economic activity it generates.



and analysis of the forestry industry is even worse. logging and
woodchip companies make a profit but only because of government
subsidies and only at the expense of the rest of us - destroying our
environment and chopping down the carbon-sequestration devices (AKA
"trees") that help to keep this planet livable. some people get rich out
of it, but for the country as whole it is a huge loss.


craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Fri Jan  5 11:04:53 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Fri Jan  5 11:11:19 2007
Subject: [LINK] vista critique
In-Reply-To: <20070104235721.GF26390@taz.net.au>
References: <5ii0ro$22cevu@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
	<459D87FC.8090509@iimetro.com.au>
	<20070104235721.GF26390@taz.net.au>
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$22dol7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 10:57 AM 5/01/2007, Craig Sanders wrote:

>and analysis of the forestry industry is even worse. logging and
>woodchip companies make a profit but only because of government
>subsidies and only at the expense of the rest of us - destroying our
>environment and chopping down the carbon-sequestration devices (AKA
>"trees") that help to keep this planet livable. some people get rich out
>of it, but for the country as whole it is a huge loss.

so much for bitching and moaning about the farm subsidies in the US. 
Sort of puts the whole Australian govt hypocrisy in perspective.

Jan


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From link at todd.inoz.com  Fri Jan  5 11:38:38 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Fri Jan  5 11:46:47 2007
Subject: [LINK] vista critique
In-Reply-To: <5ii0ro$22cevu@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
References: <5ii0ro$22cevu@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070105113622.0399ea08@wheresmymailserver.com>

At 09:19 AM 5/01/2007, Jan Whitaker wrote:
>Windows Vista includes an extensive reworking of core OS elements in order to
>provide content protection for so-called "premium content", typically HD data
>from Blu-Ray and HD-DVD sources.  Providing this protection incurs
>considerable costs in terms of system performance, system stability, 
>technical support overhead, and hardware and software cost.

I really find this kind of stuff insulting to what I perceive as the 
average persons intelligence.

Most DVD players, and no doubt BluRay and HD-DVD have processors that are 
far inferior to the normal PC.

You don't see DVD players with 1 Gig of Ram, 2 Gig CPU's and several 
cooling fans.

That means that lesser power processors are doing the job of everything 
described above without missing a beat.

Maybe it's time consumers whinged more about the overhead, and bought less 
of the crud?


From link at todd.inoz.com  Fri Jan  5 11:45:33 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Fri Jan  5 11:46:51 2007
Subject: [LINK] vista critique
In-Reply-To: <459D87FC.8090509@iimetro.com.au>
References: <5ii0ro$22cevu@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
	<459D87FC.8090509@iimetro.com.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070105113848.03077c90@wheresmymailserver.com>

At 10:04 AM 5/01/2007, Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote:
>Jan Whitaker wrote:
>>A case of unexpected consequences?
>>http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
>
>I'm still trying to make sense of Microsoft/IDC's claim that Vista is 
>worth $40bn to EC economies.


200 million people at ...


<smile>

Oh come on!  Everyone has to have Vista!  Vista La Viva!  Vista Vista!

Vista la Vista even!

Personally if most people just dumped a Linux on their desktop and didn't 
bother to upgrade their current windows, or hard drive, or memory, or 
monitors or processors, or motherboards or ... just to run Vista, life 
would be simpler.

Unfortunately when Win95 was released, the concept of upgrading your 
hardware to meet the software requirement became a marketing tool for not 
only software vendors, but hardware vendors.

I don't buy into it, and I advise people to stay away.  Do you need to 
upgrade your hardware/software?

Generally not.  I still have a Win95 laptop, it runs Word, Excel and 
Access.  It browses.  It has ICQ, MSN and it's not missed a beat in 6 years.

I mistakenly upgraded my Windows NT4 to Win2K in the belief that I was 
magically going to get USB and Firewire support.  Linux worked fine, Win2K 
didn't like the hardware.  But then my deskstops died from over use :)  So 
I moved to a laptop with all the bells and whistles I wanted, and a few I 
didn't at the time but now do - alas.  It came with XP.  It seems to work 
fine.

But I won't be upgrading it to Vista just because Vista is "cool" or better 
or whatever someone wants to tell me.

In fact to be honest I'd be very surprised if I upgrade or purchase any new 
Microsoft Software.

I'm STILL using only 2 of my ten user licences of Office 97, had it since 
1998 and continue to use it without any problems.  If I need to "upgrade" 
it, I'll switch to Open Office and be done with the issues of Mac/PC 
incompatability.

If I switch to Open Office, I'll be motivated to dump Windows XP from the 
laptops, put an ODBC database front end or even finish coding up my Web 
based "Access Feature Alike" application and that will be the last of 
Windows around here except for my little Toshiba running Win95 faithfully.

$40 billion.  Gak.






From eleanor at pacific.net.au  Fri Jan  5 12:25:57 2007
From: eleanor at pacific.net.au (Eleanor Lister)
Date: Fri Jan  5 12:27:10 2007
Subject: [LINK] vista critique
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20070105113622.0399ea08@wheresmymailserver.com>
References: <5ii0ro$22cevu@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
	<6.2.0.14.0.20070105113622.0399ea08@wheresmymailserver.com>
Message-ID: <459DA925.40408@pacific.net.au>

Adam Todd wrote:
> At 09:19 AM 5/01/2007, Jan Whitaker wrote:
>> Windows Vista includes an extensive reworking of core OS elements in
>> order to
>> provide content protection for so-called "premium content", typically
>> HD data
>> from Blu-Ray and HD-DVD sources.  Providing this protection incurs
>> considerable costs in terms of system performance, system stability,
>> technical support overhead, and hardware and software cost.
>
> I really find this kind of stuff insulting to what I perceive as the
> average persons intelligence.
>
> Most DVD players, and no doubt BluRay and HD-DVD have processors that
> are far inferior to the normal PC.
>
> You don't see DVD players with 1 Gig of Ram, 2 Gig CPU's and several
> cooling fans.
>
> That means that lesser power processors are doing the job of
> everything described above without missing a beat.
>
> Maybe it's time consumers whinged more about the overhead, and bought
> less of the crud?
>

the reason i like the new HD stuff is that as soon as it hits the mass
market, the arse will fall out of the DVD market and i'll be able to
stock up on a huge collection of DVDs very cheaply.

there are very good reasons to stay 1 step *behind* the market,
including the fact that my DVD playing equipment works perfectly and is
very cheap, it's mature technology now. (like me, hehehe)

-- 
------------
Eleanor Ashley Lister
South Sydney Greens
http://ssg.nsw.greens.org.au
webmistress@ssg.nsw.greens.org.au

From rick at praxis.com.au  Fri Jan  5 15:08:06 2007
From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Fri Jan  5 15:08:23 2007
Subject: [LINK] vista critique
In-Reply-To: <5ii0ro$22cevu@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
References: <5ii0ro$22cevu@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <459DCF26.1050107@praxis.com.au>

Jan Whitaker wrote:

> A case of unexpected consequences?
> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
> 
>            A Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection
>            ===================================================

Thanks for this, Jan.

I have summarised a few of the more astonishing consequences of this
DRM regime below. The gist of the changes being imposed on Vista is
that the quality of multimedia content that the typical user
gathers from here and there on the Net will degrade, look fuzzy and sound
crappy on what is supposedly state-of-the-art very HQ and expensive
hardware.

Quotes from the article are indented.

   Amusingly, the Vista content protection docs say that it'll be left to
   graphics chip manufacturers to differentiate their product based on
   (deliberately degraded) video quality.  This seems a bit like breaking the
   legs of Olympic athletes and then rating them based on how fast they can
   hobble on crutches.

and

   Beyond the obvious playback-quality implications of deliberately degraded
   output, this measure can have serious repercussions in applications where
   high-quality reproduction of content is vital.  For example the field of
   medical imaging either bans outright or strongly frowns on any form of lossy
   compression because artifacts introduced by the compression process can cause
   mis-diagnoses and in extreme cases even become life-threatening.  Consider a
   medical IT worker who's using a medical imaging PC while listening to
   audio/video played back by the computer (the CDROM drives installed in
   workplace PCs inevitably spend most of their working lives playing music or
   MP3 CDs to drown out workplace noise).  If there's any premium content present
   in there, the image will be subtly altered by Vista's content protection,
   potentially creating exactly the life-threatening situation that the medical
   industry has worked so hard to avoid.

It must be noted here that to date, Windows as distributed by Microsoft clearly
states that their operating system *not* be used in certain critical areas like
aviation and medicine. And yet when I have visited my sister-in-law at work in
ICU, there are Windows boxes everywhere. And why Windows would be allowed
to be used to display life-critical diagnostic imaging is beyond my comprehension.
It would be child's play to introduce a rogue agent into the Windows system and
network that silently corrupts such imaging to cause surgical errors and even death.
It also boggles the mind that in the post-911 environment of heightened awareness
and security that such vulnerable systems are still be deployed at an alarming
rate throughout industries such as medicine and aviation.

So the question arises: will Vista also contain a sanction against use in certain
application areas like medicine and aviation? And one wonders if those sanctions
would be actionable under the law.

Back to the DRM ... and speaking of post-911 security:

  Even without deliberate abuse by malware, the homeland security implications
  of an external agent being empowered to turn off your IT infrastructure in
  response to a content leak discovered in some chipset that you coincidentally
  happen to be using is a serious concern for potential Vista users.  Non-US
  governments are already nervous enough about using a US-supplied operating
  system without having this remote DoS capability built into the operating
  system.  And like the medical-image-degradation issue, you won't find out
  about this until it's too late, turning Vista PCs into ticking time bombs if
  the revocation functionality is ever employed.

One starts to wonder where all of this DRM detritis is coming from. Well, we all
know, don't we:

   So if you design a new security system, you can't get it supported in Windows
   Vista until well-known computer security experts like Disney, MGM, and 20th
   Century-Fox give you the go-ahead.  It's absolutely astonishing to find
   paragraphs like that in what are supposed to be Windows technical documents,
   since it gives Hollywood studios veto rights over Windows security mechanisms.

Which raises the enevitable question: why is Hollywood now dictating the design of
software, hardware and security for all future PCs, regardless of the use to which
those PCs will be put? Their lobby in the past has resulted in increase  of
copyright lifetimes to ridiculous lengths, introduced legislation like the DMCA
and other invasions of userspace. How long before legislation is enacted that
caters to the DRM whims of Hollywood and mandates the kind of hardware and software
we are allowed to use in our homes? We all knew Microsoft has been sucking up to
the big media players for a long time now (and to other big organisations) but
the revelations coming out of the Vista design are truly gobsmacking.

   ... since even AES-128 on a modern CPU isn't fast enough to encrypt high-bandwidth
   content, companies are required to license the Intel-owned Cascaded Cipher, an
   AES-128-based transform that's designed to offer a generally similar level of
   security but with less processing overhead.

We all know what has happened in the past when crypto non-experts have implemented
their own encryption systems without peer review and analysis by the crypto
community: breakage within days of its release. I do not hold any high expectations
for crypto created by Intel, but I have not looked much further into it.

It is truly ironic and galling that Microsoft is now requiring strict adherence to its
"robustness" guidelines for Vista hardware and hardware drivers, given its own abyssmal
track record in the area of software robustness and security. When the shoe is on
Hollywood's foot, it seems that reliability and robustness are suddenly of paramount
importance. Vista is clearly Hollywood's bitch:

   On-board graphics create an additional problem in that blocks of precious
   content will end up stored in system memory, from where they could be paged to
   disk.  In order to avoid this, Vista tags such pages with a special protection
   bit indicating that they need to be encrypted before being paged out and
   decrypted again after being paged in.  Vista doesn't provide any other
   pagefile encryption, and will quite happily page banking PINs, credit card
   details, private, personal data, and other sensitive information, in
   plaintext.  The content-protection requirements make it fairly clear that in
   Microsoft's eyes a frame of premium content is worth more than (say) a user's
   medical records or their banking PIN.

How do you feel as a would-be user of technology implemented in such a manner to
hold your own personal security and safety is such utter contempt?

cheers
rickw





-- 
_________________________________
Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
      -- John Kenneth Galbraith
From grove at zeta.org.au  Fri Jan  5 16:29:23 2007
From: grove at zeta.org.au (grove@zeta.org.au)
Date: Fri Jan  5 16:29:40 2007
Subject: [LINK] vista critique
In-Reply-To: <459DD771.3070407@lannet.com.au>
References: <5ii0ro$22cevu@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
	<459DCF26.1050107@praxis.com.au> <459DD771.3070407@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701051613020.28989@zathras.uws.edu.au>

>>> A case of unexpected consequences?
>>> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
>>>
>>>            A Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection
>>>            ===================================================


As a person who uses their computer for composing music, I find the 
Vista situation to be ridiculous.    It would seem that to use 
any software that creates audio or graphic content can now be forced
to have DRM imprinted in it, or certain media libraries may fail to 
open correctly, such as audio samples or graphic plugins or image 
collections.  Certainly, sharing content that was originally 
DRM imprinted is going be much more difficult and the results
less than spectacular.

Not being able to use SPDIF or to be forced into lower sample rates 
is going to be a killer for anyone doing media projects on their 
computer.   It's also going to create more of a security hole as 
users work around the DRM to gain access to features that should 
already be available, as usurping the DRM can lead to inadvertantly 
creating illegal paths into the kernel from user content or apps or plugins
designed to usurp DRM.

Also, how far does this extend into source code or even the compilers
or app development tools?   How easy is it going to be to use 
CVS style tools, web publishing apps, C compilers and the rest?

DRM could see app library frameworks suddenly having a huge extra layer
of complexity and perhaps for OSS developers, this means no longer
being able to use certain libraries, because they contain prohibited
DRM content and the rest.

The deeper you go into Vista, the more it is obvious it is the same 
old rubbish, but with terribly restrictive rights imposed on it, 
for anyone who isn't working for Microsoft, or one of it's partners.

Don't even bother buying the "Home" version - it won't even look 
at an SPDIF port.

But, people will buy it.  Enterprises will install it. 
And the programmers will have to learn their trade all over again. 
And the outsourcing will continue.   And the security holes will get bigger.
And everyone will make lots of money.


rachel

-- 
Rachel Polanskis                 Kingswood, Greater Western Sydney, Australia
grove@zeta.org.au                http://www.zeta.org.au/~grove/grove.html
 	"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security,
 	deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin, 1759
From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au  Fri Jan  5 21:32:55 2007
From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry)
Date: Fri Jan  5 21:33:07 2007
Subject: [LINK] Fwd: MR 1/07: ACMA seeks comment on extending datacasting
	trial in Sydney
References: <02374900011678706878963@subscribedmailings.com>
Message-ID: <514582B6-F878-41E3-BD91-CB6701759FC5@tony-barry.emu.id.au>



Begin forwarded message:

> From: "Australian Communications & Media Authority"  
> <publishing@acma.gov.au>
> Date: 4 January 2007 11:31:27 AM
> To: <tony@tony-barry.emu.id.au>
> Subject: MR 1/07: ACMA seeks comment on extending datacasting trial  
> in Sydney
> Reply-To: media@acma.gov.au
>
> The Australian Communications and Media Authority is seeking public  
> comment on extending the digital datacasting trial currently being  
> conducted in Sydney by Broadcast Australia.  The full release can  
> be found at http://www.acma.gov.au/ACMAINTER:STANDARD::pc=PC_101031
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> --------------------
> UNSUBSCRIBE INFORMATION
> This email was sent to tony@tony-barry.emu.id.au, by <br>Mailing  
> list manager.
> To opt-out of any future messages, please use the url below:-
> http://elmn.com/?0073447701595tony@tony-barry.emu.id.au
> We will respect your decision to receive no further emails from us.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> --------------------
>
>

phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au
http://tony-barry.emu.id.au


From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au  Fri Jan  5 21:37:07 2007
From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry)
Date: Fri Jan  5 21:37:19 2007
Subject: [LINK] Fwd: [padiforum-l] DigCCurr2007 - Proposal Deadline Extended
	to Jan. 10th
References: <sympa.1167179677.26005.109@nla.gov.au>
Message-ID: <15DA1C05-862A-4799-A458-2720B1F38D36@tony-barry.emu.id.au>



Begin forwarded message:

> From: tibbo@email.unc.edu
> Date: 27 December 2006 11:35:46 AM
> To: padiforum-l@nla.gov.au
> Subject: [padiforum-l] DigCCurr2007 - Proposal Deadline Extended to  
> Jan. 10th
> Reply-To: padiforum-l@nla.gov.au
>
> Apologies for cross postings.
>
> To accommodate busy holiday schedules and travel, we are moving the  
> paper submission deadline to January 10, 2007.
>
> *****************************************
> DigCCurr2007: An International Symposium on Digital Curation
>
> Focus: ?What Digital Curators Do and What They Need to Know?
>
> April 18-20, 2007
> Chapel Hill, North Carolina
>
> *****************************************
> IMPORTANT DATES:
>
> 750 word abstract: January 10, 2007
> Notification of acceptance: February 1, 2007
> Full papers: March 15, 2007
> Symposium: April 18-20, 2007
>
> http://www.ils.unc.edu/digccurr2007/papers.html
>
> *****************************************
> REGISTRATION INFORMATION:
>
> Early Bird Register by January 15, 2007 $250.00 (US)
> Regular Register January 16 - March 1, 2007 $275.00 (US)
> Late Register March 2 - April 20, 2007 $300.00 (US)
>
> http://www.ils.unc.edu/digccurr2007/registration.html
>
> *****************************************
> INTRODUCTION:
>
> The School of Information and Library Science <http:// 
> sils.unc.edu>  (SILS) at the University of North Carolina at Chapel  
> Hill will host DigCCurr2007, an international symposium on Digital  
> Curation, April 19 ? 20, 2007. This two-day event is part of the  
> ?Preserving Access to Our Digital Future: Building an International  
> Digital Curation? project funded by the Institute of Museum of  
> Library Services (IMLS). The National Archives and Records  
> Administration (NARA) is a partner in this effort.
>
> DigCCurr2007 will focus on what digital curators do and what they  
> need to know to carry out this work and each speaker is asked to  
> address these issues in their presentation.
>
> *****************************************
> AUDIENCE:
>
> Anyone interested in digital preservation and curation, especially  
> those who are building staff capacity in these areas.
>
> *****************************************
> TOPICS OF INTEREST:
>
> While paper submissions on any aspect of digital curation are  
> welcome, we are particularly interested in the following areas and  
> topics:
>
> Designing Repositories ? Where to Begin?
> Repository Architecture
> Ingest Services
> User Services
> Metadata
> Standards and Standard Development
> Policy Development
> Programs for Working with Content/Data Providers
> Intellectual Property Rights Issues
> Information Industry Perspectives
> Social Science Data Curation
> Science Data Curation
> Funding and Sustainability
>
> We request that each paper include discussion of the skills,  
> knowledge, and perspectives individuals working in these functional  
> areas and environments or addressing these issues will find valuable.
>
> *****************************************
> PAPER FORMAT & SUBMISSION:
>
> Abstract and full papers must be submitted electronically as PDF  
> files. Full papers should be 6-8 pages in length and use a double  
> column format such as the ACM layout. Detailed formatting and  
> submission instructions will be available in the author  
> instructions section of the conference Web site soon. At this time  
> electronic publication of the proceedings is planned but may be  
> followed with a print version.
>
> Please submit abstracts to John Schaefer at: jschaefe@email.unc.edu  
> by January 10, 2007.
>
> *****************************************
> CONFERENCE ORGANIZERS
>
> Helen R. Tibbo, School of Information and Library Science, UNC- 
> Chapel Hill
> Christopher A. Lee, School of Information and Library Science, UNC- 
> Chapel Hill
> John Schaefer, School of Information and Library Science, UNC- 
> Chapel Hill
>
> *****************************************
> ADVISORY BOARD:
>
> Advisory Board members include:
> Stephen Chapman, Harvard University;
> Adrian Cunningham, National Archives of Australia;
> Robin Dale, RLG/OCLC;
> Wendy Duff, University of Toronto;
> Philip Eppard, SUNY-Albany;
> Anne Gilliland, UCLA;
> Maria Guercio, University of Urbino;
> Hans Hofman, Nationaal Archief (National Archives) of the  
> Netherlands and ERPANET;
> Anne Kenney, Cornell University Library;
> Steve Knight, National Library of New Zealand;
> Clifford Lynch, Coalition for Networked Information; Richard  
> Marciano, San Diego Super Computer Center;
> Seamus Ross, University of Glasgow;
> Don Sawyer, NASA;
> Kenneth Thibodeau, National Archives and Records Administration;
> Raymond van Diessen, IBM, The Netherlands;
> Elizabeth Yakel, University of Michigan.
>
> *****************************************
> CONFERENCE SOCIAL EVENTS:
>
> All-conference opening reception, 6:00 ? 7:30 PM, Wednesday, April  
> 18th
> Working lunch, 12:15 ? 1:45, Thursday, April 19th
> All-conference reception, 5:00 ? 7:00 PM, Thursday, April 19th
> Working lunch, 12:15 ? 1:45, Friday, April 20h
>
> *****************************************
> CONFERENCE LOCATION:
>
> The opening reception will be held in The Wilson Library on UNC?s  
> main campus.
> All sessions, lunches, and the Thursday evening reception will be  
> held at The William and Ida Friday Center for Continuing Education,  
> University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, located on Route 54 in  
> Chapel Hill, NC.
>
> FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
>
> Please see: http://ils.unc.edu/digccurr.
>
>
> Dr. Helen R. Tibbo, Professor
> School of Information and Library Science
> 201 Manning Hall
> University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
> Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3360
> tibbo@ils.unc.edu
> Tel: 919.962.8063
> Fax: 919.962.8071

phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au
http://tony-barry.emu.id.au



From link at todd.inoz.com  Fri Jan  5 23:32:44 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Fri Jan  5 23:33:43 2007
Subject: [LINK] Fwd: MR 1/07: ACMA seeks comment on extending
	datacasting trial in Sydney
In-Reply-To: <514582B6-F878-41E3-BD91-CB6701759FC5@tony-barry.emu.id.au>
References: <02374900011678706878963@subscribedmailings.com>
	<514582B6-F878-41E3-BD91-CB6701759FC5@tony-barry.emu.id.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070105232943.0335c360@wheresmymailserver.com>

At 09:32 PM 5/01/2007, Antony Barry wrote:

>>The Australian Communications and Media Authority is seeking public
>>comment on extending the digital datacasting trial currently being
>>conducted in Sydney by Broadcast Australia.  The full release can
>>be found at http://www.acma.gov.au/ACMAINTER:STANDARD::pc=PC_101031

An interesting read.  Especially the Broadcast Australia Dec 2006 report, 
and the inclusion of their limited market research sample.

Seems no one is watching the Christian Channel :)

Or the 24 hour a day Expo "Call now, but wait get free steak knives so you 
can carve your DTB!"

I've found the "NSW Info" channel became unusable last year.  Being unable 
to select the information and waiting 20 minutes for a loop to pass wasn't 
really helpful.

I'd really support an RTA Traffic Channel that has a user interactive user 
selection of which camera option.    This might well assist with traffic 
congestion and all kinds of problems.

I'm not sure about the "Mobile TV" concept.  What's the "mobile" user use 
to get the broadcast?  Another pocket device?


From grove at zeta.org.au  Sat Jan  6 00:04:04 2007
From: grove at zeta.org.au (grove@zeta.org.au)
Date: Sat Jan  6 00:04:12 2007
Subject: [LINK] The bee man was right.....
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701060002390.29620@zathras.uws.edu.au>

I was looking forward to the day I could post this ;)


http://www.abc.net.au/rural/telegraph/content/2006/s1801908.htm

Why is it that the bees know but the best technology in the world 
still cannot give us more than a few days forecast?!


rachel

-- 
Rachel Polanskis                 Kingswood, Greater Western Sydney, Australia
grove@zeta.org.au                http://www.zeta.org.au/~grove/grove.html
 	"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security,
 	deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin, 1759
From grove at zeta.org.au  Sat Jan  6 00:07:32 2007
From: grove at zeta.org.au (grove@zeta.org.au)
Date: Sat Jan  6 00:07:51 2007
Subject: [LINK] Whoops - bee man was right...
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701060006510.29620@zathras.uws.edu.au>

Sorry,

I meant to post this one which explains it better!

http://www.abc.gov.au/news/items/200611/1800208.htm?alicesprings


rachel

-- 
Rachel Polanskis                 Kingswood, Greater Western Sydney, Australia
grove@zeta.org.au                http://www.zeta.org.au/~grove/grove.html
 	"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security,
 	deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin, 1759
From stephen at melbpc.org.au  Sat Jan  6 02:37:52 2007
From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley)
Date: Sat Jan  6 02:38:22 2007
Subject: [LINK] More persistence of information.....
In-Reply-To: <459B54DB.1060902@iimetro.com.au>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701031624560.28989@zathras.uws.edu.au>
	<459B54DB.1060902@iimetro.com.au>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070105015928.01aadc68@melbpc.org.au>

At 06:01 PM 3/01/2007, Bernard wrote:

<quote> Bush also promised to bring an end to the severe war drought 

and, what better than an Oil war! ... the Texas oil-man still desperate to
keep mobile the SUV urban-tanks, thinks hmm, i know, we'll have a joke
invasion .. we'll give it a major petrol company brand name, ie "Gulf" war,
and later we'll joke about no WMDs, after we've secured all those oil-fields
first, and for forever .. and .. bugger the people .. jeepers, now that's a plan!

and so that's what they did but with no disrespect to the office of the
President of the US, I think the current one should always add 'junior'
after his name .. he just seems like a  junior type-of-guy .. you know?

  


From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Sat Jan  6 12:37:25 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Sat Jan  6 12:39:42 2007
Subject: [LINK] Whoops - bee man was right...
Message-ID: <C1C54885.611%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>

> An Alice Springs apiarist says he is predicting big rains for central
> Australia within the next two months because of some unusual behaviour by his
> bees. 

The 7.30 report the other day showed that Central Australia and NW Western
Australia have both had record levels of rain right throughout this year...
pushing Australia's average fall above the normal despite the southern
drought.

Which probably suggests how the apiarist was able to make this prediction in
November 2006 and be reasonably confident of being right (it is their wet
season after all).  It might also explain how the bees had the resources to
make all that honey and wax.





-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458

From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au  Sat Jan  6 13:03:17 2007
From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry)
Date: Sat Jan  6 13:03:33 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20061231114730.03398120@wheresmymailserver.com>
References: <C1BC148C.5DA%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20061231011006.01b02a68@melbpc.org.au>
	<6.2.0.14.0.20061231114730.03398120@wheresmymailserver.com>
Message-ID: <AACA0016-0B78-4346-8F39-5298A67822BF@tony-barry.emu.id.au>


On 31/12/2006, at 11:57 AM, Adam Todd wrote:

> I have belief and experience in Extra-sensory perception.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias>?

Tony

phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au
http://tony-barry.emu.id.au


From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au  Sat Jan  6 13:05:47 2007
From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry)
Date: Sat Jan  6 13:05:58 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <C1BD8BA3.5E8%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <C1BD8BA3.5E8%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <D686917D-EB4B-4479-A01F-C119B7864C0C@tony-barry.emu.id.au>


On 31/12/2006, at 3:45 PM, Stewart Fist wrote:

> I'll start worrying about ESP the first day I ever get the slightest
> evidence (or even 'inkling') that it exists.  I've watched the  
> claims for 60
> years, and never seen anything stand up to even a modicum of  
> scientific
> examination or evaluation.

Research into the paranormal seems to follow a kind of quantum  
uncertainty principle.

The more effort you put into trying to measure an effect the more it  
seems to go away :^)

Tony

phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au
http://tony-barry.emu.id.au


From grove at zeta.org.au  Sat Jan  6 13:49:33 2007
From: grove at zeta.org.au (grove@zeta.org.au)
Date: Sat Jan  6 13:49:46 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <D686917D-EB4B-4479-A01F-C119B7864C0C@tony-barry.emu.id.au>
References: <C1BD8BA3.5E8%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<D686917D-EB4B-4479-A01F-C119B7864C0C@tony-barry.emu.id.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701061348070.29813@zathras.uws.edu.au>

On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Antony Barry wrote:

>
> On 31/12/2006, at 3:45 PM, Stewart Fist wrote:
>
>> I'll start worrying about ESP the first day I ever get the slightest
>> evidence (or even 'inkling') that it exists.  I've watched the claims for 
>> 60
>> years, and never seen anything stand up to even a modicum of scientific
>> examination or evaluation.
>
> Research into the paranormal seems to follow a kind of quantum uncertainty 
> principle.
>
> The more effort you put into trying to measure an effect the more it seems to 
> go away :^)


I am surprised no one got around to mentioning the obvious....

http://zapatopi.net/afdb/


rachel

-- 
Rachel Polanskis                 Kingswood, Greater Western Sydney, Australia
grove@zeta.org.au                http://www.zeta.org.au/~grove/grove.html
 	"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security,
 	deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin, 1759
From grove at zeta.org.au  Sat Jan  6 13:53:39 2007
From: grove at zeta.org.au (grove@zeta.org.au)
Date: Sat Jan  6 13:53:49 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <AACA0016-0B78-4346-8F39-5298A67822BF@tony-barry.emu.id.au>
References: <C1BC148C.5DA%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20061231011006.01b02a68@melbpc.org.au>
	<6.2.0.14.0.20061231114730.03398120@wheresmymailserver.com>
	<AACA0016-0B78-4346-8F39-5298A67822BF@tony-barry.emu.id.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701061351130.29813@zathras.uws.edu.au>

On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Antony Barry wrote:

>
> On 31/12/2006, at 11:57 AM, Adam Todd wrote:
>
>> I have belief and experience in Extra-sensory perception.
>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias>?

Is Johnny's reaction to Ziggy's paper an example of this?


rachel

-- 
Rachel Polanskis                 Kingswood, Greater Western Sydney, Australia
grove@zeta.org.au                http://www.zeta.org.au/~grove/grove.html
 	"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security,
 	deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin, 1759
From link at todd.inoz.com  Sat Jan  6 14:52:43 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Sat Jan  6 14:53:14 2007
Subject: [LINK] The bee man was right.....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701060002390.29620@zathras.uws.edu.au>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701060002390.29620@zathras.uws.edu.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070106145137.03026730@wheresmymailserver.com>

At 12:04 AM 6/01/2007, grove@zeta.org.au wrote:
>I was looking forward to the day I could post this ;)
>
>
>http://www.abc.net.au/rural/telegraph/content/2006/s1801908.htm
>
>Why is it that the bees know but the best technology in the world still 
>cannot give us more than a few days forecast?!

What about the Ants?  Right now its about 38C outside, the sunroom has 
peaked at 53C, and the Ants are bringing food INTO the kitchen, normally 
they take it from!

I suspect after two days of heat there is a whopper of a storm heading to 
Sydney!  Now, lets go see what the BOM says :) 

From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Sat Jan  6 15:43:23 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Sat Jan  6 15:49:13 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701061351130.29813@zathras.uws.edu.au>
References: <C1BC148C.5DA%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20061231011006.01b02a68@melbpc.org.au>
	<6.2.0.14.0.20061231114730.03398120@wheresmymailserver.com>
	<AACA0016-0B78-4346-8F39-5298A67822BF@tony-barry.emu.id.au>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0701061351130.29813@zathras.uws.edu.au>
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$22sgv1@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 01:53 PM 6/01/2007, grove@zeta.org.au wrote:
>Is Johnny's reaction to Ziggy's paper an example of this?

Naw, that was an example of an old betting term: the fix was in.


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From link at todd.inoz.com  Sat Jan  6 16:19:35 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Sat Jan  6 16:20:31 2007
Subject: [LINK] SPAM to my link only address:  Fwd: within my wrath of you.
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070106161800.03081d28@mail.ah.net>


I can only think that someone on link has had their address book or email 
folders scanned by a spamers trojen because the email address herein is 
exclusively used only on link :(

I'd hate to think that the address has been farmed from link archives or 
via a listbot subscribing to the list.


>Return-Path: <link@todd.inoz.com>
>Received: from dsl-ncr-dynamic-218.58.23.125.airtelbroadband.in 
>(dsl-ncr-dynamic-218.58.23.125.airtelbroadband.in [125.23.58.218] (may be 
>forged))
>         by fep1.ah.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l064V7BQ003651
>         for <link@todd.inoz.com>; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 15:32:02 +1100
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>From: "Samuel Lewis" <whvkysibmw@oslobusiness.no>
>To: link@todd.inoz.com
>Subject: within my wrath of you.
>Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 10:00:59 +0530
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From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Sat Jan  6 17:17:43 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Sat Jan  6 17:20:05 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
Message-ID: <C1C58A37.616%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>

Rachel wrote

> I am surprised no one got around to mentioning the obvious....

<http://zapatopi.net/afdb/>



Call me naive, but I thought my friends wore them to ward off bald-pate
sunburn.  



-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458

From cas at taz.net.au  Sat Jan  6 18:19:51 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Sat Jan  6 18:19:49 2007
Subject: [LINK] SPAM to my link only address: Fwd: within my wrath of you.
In-Reply-To: <459F47B7.1070104@lannet.com.au>
References: <6.2.0.14.0.20070106161800.03081d28@mail.ah.net>
	<459F47B7.1070104@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070106071951.GH26390@taz.net.au>

On Sat, Jan 06, 2007 at 05:54:47PM +1100, Howard Lowndes wrote:
> I hate to tell you but the Link archive is an open archive, one reason 
> why I use:
> X-No-Archive: yes
> in my mail headers.

it makes no difference anyway. munging your address or using
X-No-Archive or whatever is completely pointless - your address WILL be
harvested by spammers no matter what you do. and once it's harvested
once, it will spread to more and more spammer lists.

so, it's a waste of time. it's far better to concentrate on blocking and
filtering spam.

> OK, my pearls of wisdom are not cast before swine, but neither is my
> email address.

actually, it is. all it takes is one loser with a windows virus to be
subscribed to the same list(s) as you or to encounter your email address
on a web site or in an email, and your address will be harvested.

there's NOTHING you can do to prevent your address from being harvested.
even addresses that have never been used, not even once, can end up
in spammer lists because spammers use dictionary attacks (and similar
methods - e.g. randomly combining known-good localparts (i.e. the bit
before the @ symbol) with random domains) to compile lists of *possible*
addresses. unless your address looks like line-noise, it will eventually
be discovered this way.

and once your address is in a spam list, it will never, ever be removed.
it will just keep on being added to more (e.g. my mail server is still
rejecting spam for addresses that didn't exist 10 years ago, still don't
exist now, and never have existed....they were added to a spam list by a
vengeful spammer, and must have now spread to pretty nearly every spam
list out there)


craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From link at todd.inoz.com  Sat Jan  6 18:59:49 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Sat Jan  6 19:00:18 2007
Subject: [LINK] SPAM to my link only address:  Fwd: within my wrath of you.
In-Reply-To: <459F47B7.1070104@lannet.com.au>
References: <6.2.0.14.0.20070106161800.03081d28@mail.ah.net>
	<459F47B7.1070104@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070106185915.037f3bf0@wheresmymailserver.com>

At 05:54 PM 6/01/2007, Howard Lowndes wrote:
>I hate to tell you but the Link archive is an open archive, one reason why 
>I use:
>X-No-Archive: yes
>in my mail headers.

Yes but most publishing software munges the addresses!

>OK, my pearls of wisdom are not cast before swine, but neither is my email 
>address.

Oh it's OK, I'll just change the address :)


From link at todd.inoz.com  Sun Jan  7 00:05:58 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Sun Jan  7 00:06:31 2007
Subject: [LINK] Search continues for other missing weapons
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070107000325.030e1ef0@mail.ah.net>


I've been watching this story for a few days, both in the media and via 
other places of interest.  Rather interesting to see what information is 
leaked to the media, given to the media and discovered by the media.

But I think what stands out most is the whole lack of accountability, 
monitoring and management.



Search continues for other missing weapons

Craig Skehan
January 6, 2007


Other related coverage

    * 
<http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/nuclear-plant-target-for-stolen-rocket-launchers-police-allege/2007/01/05/1167777281891.html>Nuclear 
plant target for stolen rocket launchers, police allege
    * 
<http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/weapon-warning-ignored/2006/12/23/1166290777965.html>Weapon 
warning 'ignored'
    * 
<http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/2-rocket-launcher-mystery/2007/01/03/1167777155925.html>$2 
rocket launcher mystery
    * 
<http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/stolen-rocket-launchers-sold-to-terror-suspect/2007/01/05/1167777261021.html>Stolen 
rocket launchers 'sold to terror suspect'
    * 
<http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/2-rocket-launcher-found/2007/01/03/1167777123211.html>$2 
rocket launcher found
AdvertisementAdvertisement

THE dramatic arrest yesterday over the theft of an Australian Defence Force 
rocket launcher comes amid ASIO involvement in attempts to find out how 
many more of the weapons may be missing.

Sources said some of the launchers could have been stolen while they were 
being transported from the US manufacturer to the Australian Defence Force 
or after they were obtained by Defence.

While an audit has not found records of missing launchers since "computer 
integration" in about 2000, sources said it was more difficult to determine 
what might have happened before that.

There could be no guarantees that someone in a position of trust with the 
defence establishment had not more recently falsified computer records.

The Australian Federal Police Commissioner, Mick Keelty, said that the one 
rocket launcher recovered in Sydney definitely belonged to Defence and that 
there was an investigation to determine whether seven more are missing.

The Federal Government announced last month that ASIO was being brought in 
to oversee an urgent review of Defence Force security amid fears that 
criminals, and possibly terrorists, had obtained the shoulder-fired 
66-millimetre rocket launchers from the army.

The army stopped distributing the launchers, except in specifically 
authorised operations.

The Herald had earlier reported that NSW and federal police suspected 
inside involvement by rogue soldiers in the theft, but Mr Keelty said 
yesterday that no individual soldiers were being targeted.

The launcher recovered was bought back in September by police in a special 
operation from the family of a Sydney criminal, but the Mr Keelty denied 
yesterday that a second rocket launcher had been recovered.

The federal Opposition defence spokesman, Joel Fitzgibbon, said yesterday 
that the latest developments placed even more pressure on the Government to 
ensure that weapons were securely held.

He cited a "long and sorry record of poor inventory keeping in regard to 
military equipment".

Mr Keelty said yesterday that the focus of the investigations was on how 
the recovered launcher "got from Defence to civilian possession".

From cas at taz.net.au  Sun Jan  7 09:57:01 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Sun Jan  7 09:57:01 2007
Subject: [LINK] SPAM to my link only address: Fwd: within my wrath of you.
In-Reply-To: <459F5273.4000301@lannet.com.au>
References: <6.2.0.14.0.20070106161800.03081d28@mail.ah.net>
	<459F47B7.1070104@lannet.com.au>
	<20070106071951.GH26390@taz.net.au>
	<459F5273.4000301@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070106225701.GI26390@taz.net.au>

On Sat, Jan 06, 2007 at 06:40:35PM +1100, Howard Lowndes wrote:
> Craig Sanders wrote:
> >On Sat, Jan 06, 2007 at 05:54:47PM +1100, Howard Lowndes wrote:
> >>I hate to tell you but the Link archive is an open archive, one reason 
> >>why I use:
> >>X-No-Archive: yes
> >>in my mail headers.
> >
> >it makes no difference anyway. munging your address or using
> >X-No-Archive or whatever is completely pointless - your address WILL be
> >harvested by spammers no matter what you do. and once it's harvested
> >once, it will spread to more and more spammer lists.
> 
> No, it's not pointless at all.  It reduces the exposure and hence is all 
> part of an overall spam control plan.

no, it doesn't.

the probability of being harvested is not reduced at all. p still equals
1.0.

at best, it means your address might take a few months to get harvested
rather than a few weeks....but you've been using your address for years.
it has already been harvested many times.

it makes no difference if your address is only harvested by spammers
once or ten times or hundreds of times - your address will still end up
on hundreds or thousands of spammer lists.

it may provide you with some sense of satisfaction, but it doesn't
actually achieve anything. address-munging is a useless ritual as
effective as prayer or waving a dead chicken over your modem. your time
and effort is better spent on improving your anti-spam rules.

i gave up on munging years ago. now the only thing close to that i use
is to create unique addresses (either an alias, or a simple plussed
address like cas+websitename@taz.net.au) when registering with various
web sites. not to block spam, but to make it obvious when a particular
site misuses the personal data i give them.


> > so, it's a waste of time. it's far better to concentrate on blocking
> > and filtering spam.
>
> The trouble is that if you do really aggressive filtering then you
> suddenly find all the borked mails servers out there that belong
> to SMEs - mostly M$ Exchange servers where the HELO record is not
> correctly set and they use the default somewhere.local hostname or
> Win9X machines that don't use domain parts to the HELO clause.  If you
> do filtering on HELO records then that is not only contrary to RFCs
> but has too many false positives.  The other problem is IP addresses
> that are static but still don't have PTR records - come in Comindico.

yes, there are many broken mail servers out there. more generally, every
anti-spam method has false-positives and will block legitimate mail.
that is unavoidable.

it is up to you to decide the point at which your tolerance for
false-positives meets your intolerance for spam and construct your
anti-spam rules accordingly. that's different for every person, and
every organisation.

whatever your decision, though, you will never get 0% false-positives,
nor will you ever get 100% spam blocking. you can get very close (i do),
but there is always the risk of both FPs and false negatives (undetected
spam).


(and for those who can't do their own anti-spam stuff, their best bet
is to use one of the anti-spam mail services, like fastmail.fm. trouble
is that while they have some scope for individual customisation, you're
largely dependant on someone else's decisions about anti-spam rules.
that would be unacceptable for me, but is a lot better than nothing for
the unskilled).


> I had a go the other day about the need for persons/orgs operating
> computers to have the same legal requirement to ensure that they
> use a serviceable computer as they are required to ensure that they
> use a serviceable vehicle, and that computer should be subject to a
> routine inspection.  Controversial - yes, but just as a vehicle has
> the potential to cause injury to persons or damage to property, so
> computers have the potential to cause damage to the economy.  One
> prediction for 2007 is a major DDoS on a stock exchange.

yes, i've made similar arguments over the years - IIRC, using the car
roadworthiness analogy like you and also an analogy about leaving a
loaded gun in the back seat of a car. negligence is negligence and the
law doesn't admit ignorance as an excuse.



> >there's NOTHING you can do to prevent your address from being harvested.
> >even addresses that have never been used, not even once, can end up
> >in spammer lists because spammers use dictionary attacks (and similar
> >methods - e.g. randomly combining known-good localparts (i.e. the bit
> >before the @ symbol) with random domains) to compile lists of *possible*
> >addresses. unless your address looks like line-noise, it will eventually
> >be discovered this way.
> >
> >and once your address is in a spam list, it will never, ever be removed.
> >it will just keep on being added to more (e.g. my mail server is still
> >rejecting spam for addresses that didn't exist 10 years ago, still don't
> >exist now, and never have existed....they were added to a spam list by a
> >vengeful spammer, and must have now spread to pretty nearly every spam
> >list out there)
> 
> Don't be defeatist - fight back.

i do. my postfix rules block over 99% of the spam attempting to get into
my system, and i detect and tag all but of a handful of the rest with
spamassassin.

e.g. a recent week had 103398 spam rejected by postfix. a further 145
spams were detected by spamassassin, tagged, and filtered to my spam
quarantine mailbox (and used to construct or refine my anti-spam rules).
1271 legitimate messages were delivered.

Percentages:
spam ratio      (103543/104814) 98.79%
tagged messages (145/1416) 10.24%
rejected spam   (103398/103543) 99.86%

of those 1271, there were probably a few (anything up to 4 or 5) that were
false-negatives (undetected spam).  that's not bad compared to the >100,000
spams that would have flooded my mailboxes otherwise.

i don't see that as being in the slightest bit defeatist. i just know
where to concentrate my efforts for best results.


craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From cas at taz.net.au  Sun Jan  7 11:58:40 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Sun Jan  7 11:58:38 2007
Subject: [LINK] SPAM to my link only address: Fwd: within my wrath of you.
In-Reply-To: <45A03ECF.7020802@lannet.com.au>
References: <6.2.0.14.0.20070106161800.03081d28@mail.ah.net>
	<459F47B7.1070104@lannet.com.au>
	<20070106071951.GH26390@taz.net.au>
	<459F5273.4000301@lannet.com.au>
	<20070106225701.GI26390@taz.net.au>
	<45A03ECF.7020802@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070107005840.GJ26390@taz.net.au>

On Sun, Jan 07, 2007 at 11:29:03AM +1100, Howard Lowndes wrote:
> Craig Sanders wrote:
> >it may provide you with some sense of satisfaction, but it doesn't
> >actually achieve anything. address-munging is a useless ritual as
> >effective as prayer or waving a dead chicken over your modem. your time
> >and effort is better spent on improving your anti-spam rules.
> 
> Do you mean that the lucky rabbit's foot tied onto my monitor won't work?

it will work about as well as address-munging.

> I can write very tight anti-spam rules, but the rate of false
> positives ramps up to an unacceptable extent and much of that is
> mal-configured genuine servers.

like i said, it's up to you to decide your level of tolerance for FPs.

> >e.g. a recent week had 103398 spam rejected by postfix. a further 145
> 
> Mmmm, that would be a quiet week for me  :)

it's only a small home mail server, handling mail for about half a dozen
people.

over 103000 spams rejected for about 1200 messages delivered. that's
absurd...words fail me over how wrong that is.

(and that doesn't include the spams that get blocked by my firewall
packet filtering rules - i block most of china and some other countries.
they don't even get as far as postfix, so don't get logged. i can afford
to do that on a small home server because i don't know anyone in china
and dont care in the slightest about the miniscule risk of blocking
a legit message from there. i couldn't do that kind of blocking on a
company or ISP mail server).

craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From stephen at melbpc.org.au  Mon Jan  8 03:50:06 2007
From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley)
Date: Mon Jan  8 03:51:38 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701061348070.29813@zathras.uws.edu.au>
References: <C1BD8BA3.5E8%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<D686917D-EB4B-4479-A01F-C119B7864C0C@tony-barry.emu.id.au>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0701061348070.29813@zathras.uws.edu.au>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070108021323.01c56f98@melbpc.org.au>

At 01:49 PM 6/01/2007, Rachel wrote:

>On Sat, 6 Jan 2007, Antony wrote:
>
>>On 31/12/2006, at 3:45 PM, Stewart wrote:
>>
>>>I'll start worrying about ESP the first day I ever get the slightest
>>>evidence (or even 'inkling') that it exists.  I've watched the claims for 60
>>>years, and never seen anything stand up to even a modicum of scientific
>>>examination or evaluation.
>>
>>Research into the paranormal seems to follow a kind of quantum uncertainty principle.
>>The more effort you put into trying to measure an effect the more it seems to go away :^)
>
>I am surprised no one got around to mentioning the obvious.... http://zapatopi.net/afdb/


Yes, and I would suggest we put all this together, and start seriously
looking at science-assisted-extra-sensory-perception .. and of even
more importance .. science-assisted-extra-sensory-communication.

And yes at first it may take a hat with 64 EMF detectors, but once we
know the frequencies (12Hz?), the signal pulse-rates and the various
neuron-areas which create human electromagnetic brain-wave fields
(accurate 3D EMF brain-maps), then increasingly powerful computer
algorithms may mean that 'extra-sensory' (and even two-way) human
communication is possible. For example amplified 'telepathy' of text?

Being one species I bet humans process text in much the same way
with the same frequencies, bit-patterns and brain-neuron locations. If
so it's reasonable to suppose technology could transfer our mind-info
directly as one data-stream, and thus, send and receive text directly?

Cheers,
Stephen
ps, with many examples of 'loving-empathy' human communications
especially, reportedly received telepathically though, I wouldn't be at
all surprised if, in extreme moments, we humans did have this ability.







From brd at iimetro.com.au  Mon Jan  8 09:01:27 2007
From: brd at iimetro.com.au (brd@iimetro.com.au)
Date: Mon Jan  8 09:01:43 2007
Subject: [LINK] E-vote systems certifier de-certified
Message-ID: <20070108070127.ucqmmr69wp0kso4w@webmail.iimetro.com.au>

E-vote systems certifier de-certified
We can't prove anything, so neither can the Feds
By Thomas C Greene in Dublin
Published Friday 5th January 2007 12:40 GMT
The Register
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/01/05/evoting_not_well_understood/

The leading certifier of US electronic voting systems, Colorado outfit Ciber,
Inc., is no longer permitted to issue certifications, after federal
investigators discovered appallingly haphazard testing regimes, the New York
Times reports.

Ciber, which certifies the majority of US election devices, was unable to
document how it supposedly tested the machines for accuracy and security. Due
to the oddities of US elections regulations, no government agency is assigned
this role; rather, device manufacturers pay whoever they wish to rubber-stamp
their kit.

The US federal Election Assistance Commission began oversight only in July 2006,
and immediately found problems with Ciber's records, but did not act until
recently, presumably in fear that the November election results would be
brought into question. Ciber has been barred from issuing certifications until
it can demonstrate proper quality controls and documentation of its "work".

The company says it's on the mend, however, and assures investors that it will
win federal accreditation this month. Voters may be less optimistic. While
Ciber may not be allowed to certify machines until the Commission is satisfied
with its recordkeeping, nothing is yet being done to re-examine the machines it
"passed" without adequate controls.

And nothing is being done to bring transparency to the business of voting
machine testing and certification, although this is perhaps the most important
element of any trustworthy scheme. A good model can be found in the Nevada
Gaming Commission, which investigates even the smallest complaints with Las
Vegas's electronic slot machines (among many other things). If these machines
were certified by anyone the makers wished to hire, the public would soon
mobilise in protest, and casinos would lose significant revenue from their most
blatant mechanisms of mass theft.

And yet there is no popular outcry against the lack of accountability and
transparency in the e-voting racket. It's interesting to note that the public
is clearly less concerned with the integrity of its election equipment than it
is with a one-armed bandit in a Vegas hotel.

-- 
Regards
brd

Bernard Robertson-Dunn
Sydney Australia
brd@iimetro.com.au

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using iiMetro WebMail 
From mike.shearer at jcu.edu.au  Mon Jan  8 09:37:35 2007
From: mike.shearer at jcu.edu.au (Mike Shearer)
Date: Mon Jan  8 09:33:17 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070108021323.01c56f98@melbpc.org.au>
References: <C1BD8BA3.5E8%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>	<D686917D-EB4B-4479-A01F-C119B7864C0C@tony-barry.emu.id.au>	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0701061348070.29813@zathras.uws.edu.au>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070108021323.01c56f98@melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <45A1762F.3070703@jcu.edu.au>

Stephen Loosley wrote:
> Yes, and I would suggest we put all this together, and start seriously
> looking at science-assisted-extra-sensory-perception .. and of even
> more importance .. science-assisted-extra-sensory-communication.
>
> And yes at first it may take a hat with 64 EMF detectors, but once we
> know the frequencies (12Hz?), the signal pulse-rates and the various
> neuron-areas which create human electromagnetic brain-wave fields
> (accurate 3D EMF brain-maps), then increasingly powerful computer
> algorithms may mean that 'extra-sensory' (and even two-way) human
> communication is possible. For example amplified 'telepathy' of text?
>
> Being one species I bet humans process text in much the same way
> with the same frequencies, bit-patterns and brain-neuron locations. If
> so it's reasonable to suppose technology could transfer our mind-info
> directly as one data-stream, and thus, send and receive text directly?
>
> Cheers,
> Stephen
> ps, with many examples of 'loving-empathy' human communications
> especially, reportedly received telepathically though, I wouldn't be at
> all surprised if, in extreme moments, we humans did have this ability.
>
>
>   
Extremely unlikely, ever.  Unless you are satisfied with a fuzzy 
so-broad-its-meaningless message, to which you attach your own meaning 
and then feel that there has been real communication.   Such as you can 
already get with channellers and psychics.

-- 
Mike Shearer  BA, BPsych(Hons) PGDipClinPsych
James Cook University
Townsville   Queensland 4810


+61 7 4781 4482  Fax +61 7 4781 5886

From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Mon Jan  8 10:53:33 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Mon Jan  8 10:55:53 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
Message-ID: <C1C7D32D.61C%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>

Rachael wrote on Confirmation Bias

> Is Johnny's reaction to Ziggy's paper an example of this?

More to the point, is Ziggy's report the ultimate example of this.

And getting back to the original question under discussion:

Where did all the nuclear scientists go when the bottom dropped out of their
industry?   

When I was a kid, a job in nuclear energy engineering/physics was seen as
being the career-path with the most prospects of wealth and fame in the
scientific area.  Thousands of bright kids must have gone into this industry
full of hope, then found themselves without prospects of employment.

Ziggy became a research laboratory administrator for Eastman Kodak in the
USA.   And I keep stumbling across other nuclear physics graduates in
various radiation-related fields -- specifically in radio telecommunications
(which has very little carry over).  They seem to be seen here as the
engineering types who have an understanding of potential interaction with
biological systems.  So they ended up running the various EMF-equipment
testing labs and health/radiation standards groups.

You find them in these jobs all around the world, and the various IEEE and
ANSI committees are full of them.

I suspect that many ex-nuclear physicists have a very dim view of the health
and environmental activists who killed their industry and their careers.
And I suspect that this explains their rather cavalier dismissal of all
claims of potential harm from R/F power sources; cellphones and the like.

They are quite confident that only ionising (above UV) forms of radiation
can effect biological tissue, unless the non-ionising forms are powerful
enough to raise the core temperature of their test rats by one degree
Centigrade (thermal effects).   And this is how the 'safety standards' are
set around the world.

They know this with absolute confidence because that's what they were taught
in their nuclear radiation classes thirty years ago.

 That's still conventional wisdom in this area of science, despite hundreds
of biomedical researchers saying that they can measure or detect biological
changes in humans, animals and tissue cultures at radiation levels far below
the thermal threshold, with (non-ionising) sources like radio and microwave
transmitters.



-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458

From Fred.Pilcher at act.gov.au  Mon Jan  8 11:10:48 2007
From: Fred.Pilcher at act.gov.au (Pilcher, Fred)
Date: Mon Jan  8 11:10:58 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <C1C7D32D.61C%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72062B7F68@cal066.act.gov.au>

Did anyone see the show on SBS at 8:30 last night - "Nuclear Nightmares"? It was purportedly a report on analyses of medium to low dosages of radiation following Chernobyl, showing that, contrary to received wisdom, not only were the number of deaths orders of magnitude smaller than predicted but, at the fringe, it may be possible to interpret the evidence such that low dosages may actually have a beneficial effect on the immune system.

If it was genuine, it turns current attitudes towards the noocular industry on their head. If not, it was an extraordinary propaganda job. Unfortunately I'm no position to judge which it was.

Fred 
  
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From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Mon Jan  8 11:10:52 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Mon Jan  8 11:13:11 2007
Subject: [LINK] SPAM to my link only address: Fwd: within my wrath
Message-ID: <C1C7D73C.61D%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>

I signed up to Optusnet a couple of years ago, and for various reasons I was
unable to use my new e-mail address for a couple of weeks.

The first e-mail I received on this new address was a Welcome from Optus;
the second was ... you guessed it ... spam.  Both arrived before any e-mail
had ever been sent from this account.

Most probably one of their employees was just making some cash on the side.

It doesn't appear to have caused a flood of spam compared to how many I used
to get from my old ozemail address, so I guess it didn't get into a wider
circulation list for some reason.

Ozemail also use to send me a mass of spam that wasn't even remotely
addressed to me.  

Optusnet's spam filters seem to work fairly well, except for that type of
stock-market promotion that uses borrowed text and fake subject and author
lines.


-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458

From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Mon Jan  8 11:10:57 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Mon Jan  8 11:13:42 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <C1C7D32D.61C%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <C1C7D32D.61C%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$23gtcf@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 10:53 AM 8/01/2007, Stewart Fist wrote:
>various radiation-related fields -- specifically in radio telecommunications
>(which has very little carry over).

Well, the first 4 letters match. That's not bad.... ;-)


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From brd at iimetro.com.au  Mon Jan  8 11:34:50 2007
From: brd at iimetro.com.au (brd@iimetro.com.au)
Date: Mon Jan  8 11:34:59 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <C1C7D32D.61C%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <C1C7D32D.61C%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070108093450.7pn5b3crz72ssckg@webmail.iimetro.com.au>

Quoting Stewart Fist <stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>:

> And getting back to the original question under discussion:
>
> Where did all the nuclear scientists go when the bottom dropped out of their
> industry?

They sometimes try and do things they are not trained to do. My experience of
nuclear scientists is that they are trained to understand how to take things
apart i.e. they are reductionists. Where they tend to fall down is
understanding how complex things work i.e. emergent properties of chaotic,
non-linear systems.

The nuclear industry and the wider social systems it fits into is much more
complex than any of the physical systems nuclear scientists work on.

Unfortunately the people who hire nuclear scientists and the nuclear 
scientists
themselves are generally unaware of this.

Similarly, the subtle, emergent effects of electromagnetic radiation on
biological systems is beyond their experience horizon.

-- 
Regards
brd

Bernard Robertson-Dunn
Sydney Australia
brd@iimetro.com.au

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This message was sent using iiMetro WebMail
From brd at iimetro.com.au  Mon Jan  8 11:43:41 2007
From: brd at iimetro.com.au (brd@iimetro.com.au)
Date: Mon Jan  8 11:43:52 2007
Subject: [LINK] NYT suggests avoiding Windows to improve security
Message-ID: <20070108094341.rtyc2y4us6jo0k0c@webmail.iimetro.com.au>

Tips for Protecting the Home Computer
By JOHN MARKOFF
January 7, 2007
New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/07/technology/07tips.html?_r=1&oref=slog
in

Botnet programs and other malicious software largely take aim at PCs runnin
g the
Microsoft Windows operating system, because Windows? ubiquity makes it fe
rtile
ground for network-based attacks.

Using a non-Windows-based PC may be one defense against these programs, kno
wn as
malware; in addition, anti-malware programs and antivirus utilities for the
 PC
are available from several vendors. Windows users should use the Windows Up
date
feature.

... etc

-- 
Regards
brd

Bernard Robertson-Dunn
Sydney Australia
brd@iimetro.com.au

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From stil at stilgherrian.com  Mon Jan  8 11:58:04 2007
From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian)
Date: Mon Jan  8 11:58:32 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <45A1945E.1010508@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <C1C7E24C.5C7F4%stil@stilgherrian.com>

On 8/1/07 11:46 AM, "Howard Lowndes" <lannet@lannet.com.au> wrote:
> Pilcher, Fred wrote:
>> If it was genuine, it turns current attitudes towards the noocular industry
>> on their head. If not, it was an extraordinary propaganda job. Unfortunately
>> I'm no position to judge which it was.
> 
> I did see the program and was thinking along the same lines, but I
> forgot to check who published the program.

The original "publisher" was the BBC. It was an episode of "Panorama", the
BBC's equivalent to "Four Corners".

Stil


-- 
Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/
Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia
mobile +61 407 623 600
fax +61 2 9516 5630
ABN 25 231 641 421





From brd at iimetro.com.au  Mon Jan  8 11:58:31 2007
From: brd at iimetro.com.au (brd@iimetro.com.au)
Date: Mon Jan  8 11:58:41 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72062B7F68@cal066.act.gov.au>
References: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72062B7F68@cal066.act.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20070108095831.zbv4duhouhsk4wsw@webmail.iimetro.com.au>

Quoting "Pilcher, Fred" <Fred.Pilcher@act.gov.au>:

> Did anyone see the show on SBS at 8:30 last night - "Nuclear Nightmares"?

BBC Horizon.
More info and other links here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5173310.stm

-- 
Regards
brd

Bernard Robertson-Dunn
Sydney Australia
brd@iimetro.com.au

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This message was sent using iiMetro WebMail
From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au  Mon Jan  8 12:13:19 2007
From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry)
Date: Mon Jan  8 12:13:29 2007
Subject: [LINK] SPAM to my link only address: Fwd: within my wrath of you.
In-Reply-To: <20070106225701.GI26390@taz.net.au>
References: <6.2.0.14.0.20070106161800.03081d28@mail.ah.net>
	<459F47B7.1070104@lannet.com.au>
	<20070106071951.GH26390@taz.net.au>
	<459F5273.4000301@lannet.com.au>
	<20070106225701.GI26390@taz.net.au>
Message-ID: <3F6F2CC1-A74E-4FF5-B090-BEFF8F75E2F0@tony-barry.emu.id.au>


On 07/01/2007, at 9:57 AM, Craig Sanders wrote:

....

> is a useless ritual as
> effective as prayer or waving a dead chicken over your modem...

You mean I've been keeping that frozen chicken in the freezer for  
nothing!! :-[

Tony


phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au
http://tony-barry.emu.id.au


From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au  Mon Jan  8 12:25:29 2007
From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry)
Date: Mon Jan  8 12:25:41 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <C1C7D32D.61C%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <C1C7D32D.61C%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <D8AC5921-3DCF-46AC-8269-01FD9BC6B243@tony-barry.emu.id.au>


On 08/01/2007, at 10:53 AM, Stewart Fist wrote:

> Where did all the nuclear scientists go when the bottom dropped out  
> of their
> industry?
>
> When I was a kid, a job in nuclear energy engineering/physics was  
> seen as
> being the career-path with the most prospects of wealth and fame in  
> the
> scientific area.  Thousands of bright kids must have gone into this  
> industry
> full of hope, then found themselves without prospects of employment.

When I was 21 I thought I was going to be a thermonuclear physicist  
and ended up a librarian...

We are still waiting for thermonuclear. If ITER <http://www.iter.org/ 
 > works we *might* have something useful in thirty years.

Tony


Feral Librarian | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au
P: 02 6241 7659 | tony@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
M: 04 1242 0397 | tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au



From eleanor at pacific.net.au  Mon Jan  8 12:34:36 2007
From: eleanor at pacific.net.au (Eleanor Lister)
Date: Mon Jan  8 12:34:42 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <20070108095831.zbv4duhouhsk4wsw@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
References: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72062B7F68@cal066.act.gov.au>
	<20070108095831.zbv4duhouhsk4wsw@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
Message-ID: <45A19FAC.9050304@pacific.net.au>

brd@iimetro.com.au wrote:
> Quoting "Pilcher, Fred" <Fred.Pilcher@act.gov.au>:
>
>> Did anyone see the show on SBS at 8:30 last night - "Nuclear
>> Nightmares"?
>
> BBC Horizon.
> More info and other links here:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5173310.stm
>

interesting article, it seems much more work needs to be done, as the
scientific community does not seem to have consensus on this.

i find it interesting that the suggestion that nuclear power is safe
emerges at a time when politicians are pushing hard for the industry.

-- 
------------
Eleanor Ashley Lister
South Sydney Greens
http://ssg.nsw.greens.org.au
webmistress@ssg.nsw.greens.org.au

From cas at taz.net.au  Mon Jan  8 12:43:43 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Mon Jan  8 12:43:41 2007
Subject: [LINK] SPAM to my link only address: Fwd: within my wrath of you.
In-Reply-To: <3F6F2CC1-A74E-4FF5-B090-BEFF8F75E2F0@tony-barry.emu.id.au>
References: <6.2.0.14.0.20070106161800.03081d28@mail.ah.net>
	<459F47B7.1070104@lannet.com.au>
	<20070106071951.GH26390@taz.net.au>
	<459F5273.4000301@lannet.com.au>
	<20070106225701.GI26390@taz.net.au>
	<3F6F2CC1-A74E-4FF5-B090-BEFF8F75E2F0@tony-barry.emu.id.au>
Message-ID: <20070108014343.GK26390@taz.net.au>

On Mon, Jan 08, 2007 at 12:13:19PM +1100, Antony Barry wrote:
> On 07/01/2007, at 9:57 AM, Craig Sanders wrote:
> 
> >is a useless ritual as
> >effective as prayer or waving a dead chicken over your modem...
> 
> You mean I've been keeping that frozen chicken in the freezer for  
> nothing!! :-[

not really.

it would probably make a good sunday lunch.

craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au  Mon Jan  8 13:07:36 2007
From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry)
Date: Mon Jan  8 13:07:47 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <20070108093450.7pn5b3crz72ssckg@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
References: <C1C7D32D.61C%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<20070108093450.7pn5b3crz72ssckg@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
Message-ID: <D9B30E3D-289D-4507-AC24-A4D3BA9BBE4E@tony-barry.emu.id.au>


On 08/01/2007, at 11:34 AM, brd@iimetro.com.au wrote:

> They sometimes try and do things they are not trained to do. My  
> experience of
> nuclear scientists is that they are trained to understand how to  
> take things
> apart i.e. they are reductionists. Where they tend to fall down is
> understanding how complex things work i.e. emergent properties of  
> chaotic,
> non-linear systems.

Science, particularly the physical sciences,  succeeds well in areas  
which are simple at gross level and simplifying assumptions can be made.

Astrophysics is a case in point. A star is simple. It is largely  
spherically symmetrical , with an overlay of cylindrical symmetry on  
it's axis of rotation. As a first approximation you can assume  
reasonably smooth flow in it's interior and straightforward radiative  
transfer of energy which is produced by a few of the particles of the  
standard nuclear model interacting.

You can observe type II supernova and find that you can predict their  
evolution by knowing what they must be made of initially. The theory  
predicted that when the core collapsed and electrons and protons  
merged to form neutrons at the core resulting in a neutron star. A  
flash of neutrons would exit the star and precede the emission of  
light which would follow when the shock wave from the explosion  
reached the surface of the star about eight minutes later.

And so it proved to be. When the supernova 87A exploded in 1987 the  
light travelled for 50,000 years to get here but eight minutes before  
it arrived at the earth the two neutrino detectors, one in Japan, one  
in the US, saw the pulse of neutrinos.

I think this is one of the most dramatic demonstrations of the power  
of theoretical physical models EVER in the history of science  
involving as it did quantum mechanics, nuclear theory, gravity, non- 
linear effects in fluid dynamics and plasma physics.

Once you get to the nitty gritty of fine scale effects like solar  
flares things become messy however.

Getting back to reductionism. You need it. Being holistic will only  
get you so far. On the other hand if you just start with the bits you  
won't go far either. There are ~1000 parts in a bicycle. You'd have  
to be Leonardo to figure out what you could do with the bits if you  
had never seen a bicycle being used. Take an example from chemistry.  
Back in the 50's the chemists knew about hydrogen bonding empirically  
but it wasn't until we could pull a chemical compound to bits and use  
quantum theory and solve Schr?dinger equation <http:// 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger_equation> for the system that  
we could predict how strong it would be and how and where it would work.

I seem to have spent most of my adult life doing things I wasn't  
trained to do. I like to think a mostly did a reasonable job and I  
like to think that it was my education in mathematics and physics  
which had a large part in it. You can't understand the whole without  
knowing how the parts interact. You can't predict what the parts will  
do unless you have an idea of what the whole does. A good education  
in physics helps.

Tony

phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au
http://tony-barry.emu.id.au



From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au  Mon Jan  8 13:21:16 2007
From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry)
Date: Mon Jan  8 13:21:27 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <45A19FAC.9050304@pacific.net.au>
References: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72062B7F68@cal066.act.gov.au>
	<20070108095831.zbv4duhouhsk4wsw@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
	<45A19FAC.9050304@pacific.net.au>
Message-ID: <7EE81B33-5893-4C79-BB71-67E8008CFEB6@tony-barry.emu.id.au>


On 08/01/2007, at 12:34 PM, Eleanor Lister wrote:

> interesting article, it seems much more work needs to be done, as the
> scientific community does not seem to have consensus on this.

I think most of the health physics dosage stuff was done by tracking  
Hiroshima survivors and trying to estimate their exposure and  
following their subsequent health. The estimates would have been poor.

The other problem is the dosage response curve. The "official" view  
is that it is linear <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_no- 
threshold_model> but it may not be. Below a certain threshold there  
may be no effect or it even may be beneficial. If you assume it's  
linear then Chernobyl will produce hundreds of thousands of extra  
cancer cases in Europe BUT they will be hidden in the much larger  
number of naturally occurring cases and thence unmeasurable. It's not  
like tobacco where the figures were obvious to anybody who looked and  
was honest. So wildly different assertions can be made about death  
rates.

Tony

phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au
http://tony-barry.emu.id.au


From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Mon Jan  8 13:40:33 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Mon Jan  8 13:43:44 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <D9B30E3D-289D-4507-AC24-A4D3BA9BBE4E@tony-barry.emu.id.au>
References: <C1C7D32D.61C%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<20070108093450.7pn5b3crz72ssckg@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
	<D9B30E3D-289D-4507-AC24-A4D3BA9BBE4E@tony-barry.emu.id.au>
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$23iua5@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 01:07 PM 8/01/2007, Antony Barry wrote:
>You can't understand the whole without
>knowing how the parts interact. You can't predict what the parts will
>do unless you have an idea of what the whole does. A good education
>in physics helps.

Lovely comments on both sides of the coin of 'wholes', Tony. I would 
add: you can't understand the impact of the whole unless you look to 
the context of where the whole fits in the next higher level of order 
in the universe.


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Mon Jan  8 13:42:19 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Mon Jan  8 13:48:53 2007
Subject: [LINK] SPAM to my link only address: Fwd: within my wrath of you.
In-Reply-To: <20070108014343.GK26390@taz.net.au>
References: <6.2.0.14.0.20070106161800.03081d28@mail.ah.net>
	<459F47B7.1070104@lannet.com.au>
	<20070106071951.GH26390@taz.net.au>
	<459F5273.4000301@lannet.com.au>
	<20070106225701.GI26390@taz.net.au>
	<3F6F2CC1-A74E-4FF5-B090-BEFF8F75E2F0@tony-barry.emu.id.au>
	<20070108014343.GK26390@taz.net.au>
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$23j0fo@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 12:43 PM 8/01/2007, Craig Sanders wrote:
>it would probably make a good sunday lunch.

Or a cold pack if you've run out of peas.

(says Jan who has tendonitis and is using corn packs)


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From brd at iimetro.com.au  Mon Jan  8 13:49:26 2007
From: brd at iimetro.com.au (brd@iimetro.com.au)
Date: Mon Jan  8 13:49:35 2007
Subject: [LINK] AJAX May Be Considered Harmful
Message-ID: <20070108114926.rqv6ey31knoc4gs4@webmail.iimetro.com.au>

AJAX May Be Considered Harmful
Slashdot
http://it.slashdot.org/it/07/01/06/216245.shtml

"Security lists are abuzz about a presentation from the 23C3
conference<http://events.ccc.de/congress/2006/Home>, which details a
fundamental design flaw in Javascript
<http://events.ccc.de/congress/2006/Fahrplan/events/1602.en.html>.

The technique, called Prototype Hijacking, allows an attacker to redefine any
feature of Javascript.

The paper is called 'Subverting AJAX'
<http://events.ccc.de/congress/2006/Fahrplan/attachments/1158-Subverting_Ajax.pdf>
(pdf), and outlines a possible Web Worm that lives in the very fabric of Web 2.0
and could kill the Web as we know it."

-- 
Regards
brd

Bernard Robertson-Dunn
Sydney Australia
brd@iimetro.com.au

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using iiMetro WebMail 
From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au  Mon Jan  8 14:13:57 2007
From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke)
Date: Mon Jan  8 14:14:20 2007
Subject: [LINK] AJAX May Be Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <20070108114926.rqv6ey31knoc4gs4@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
References: <20070108114926.rqv6ey31knoc4gs4@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
Message-ID: <p06240815c1c766f9299d@[192.168.123.167]>

At 11:49 +0900 8/1/07, brd@iimetro.com.au wrote:
>The paper is called 'Subverting AJAX'
><http://events.ccc.de/congress/2006/Fahrplan/attachments/1158-Subverting_Ajax.pdf>
>(pdf), and outlines a possible Web Worm that lives in the very 
>fabric of Web 2.0
>and could kill the Web as we know it."

Unsurprisingly, the server's suffering overload ...


Note the pre-counter at
http://it.slashdot.org/it/06/12/01/1634203.shtml
An anonymous reader writes
"Jeremiah Grossman (CTO of WhiteHat Security) has published 
Myth-Busting - an article dismissing the hyped-up claims that AJAX is 
insecure. He says: 'The hype surrounding AJAX and security risks is 
hard to miss. Supposedly, this hot new technology responsible for 
compelling web-based applications like Gmail and Google Maps harbors 
a dark secret that opens the door to malicious hackers. Not exactly 
true ... Word on the cyber-street is that AJAX is the harbinger of 
larger attack surfaces, increased complexity, fake requests, denial 
of service, deadly cross-site scripting (XSS) , reliance on 
client-side security, and more. In reality, these issues existed well 
before AJAX. And, the recommended security best practices remain 
unchanged.'"

-- 
Roger Clarke                  http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/
			            
Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd      78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA
                    Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916
mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au                http://www.xamax.com.au/

Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng  Australian National University
Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program      University of Hong Kong
Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre      Uni of NSW
From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au  Mon Jan  8 14:22:35 2007
From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry)
Date: Mon Jan  8 14:22:45 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <5ii0ro$23iua5@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
References: <C1C7D32D.61C%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<20070108093450.7pn5b3crz72ssckg@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
	<D9B30E3D-289D-4507-AC24-A4D3BA9BBE4E@tony-barry.emu.id.au>
	<5ii0ro$23iua5@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <39AEEE51-B837-4EC3-81FB-D89592217B8E@tony-barry.emu.id.au>


On 08/01/2007, at 1:40 PM, Jan Whitaker wrote:

> At 01:07 PM 8/01/2007, Antony Barry wrote:
>> You can't understand the whole without
>> knowing how the parts interact. You can't predict what the parts will
>> do unless you have an idea of what the whole does. A good education
>> in physics helps.
>
> Lovely comments on both sides of the coin of 'wholes', Tony. I  
> would add: you can't understand the impact of the whole unless you  
> look to the context of where the whole fits in the next higher  
> level of order in the universe.

That's where "does" comes in. The "whole" does things in the next  
higher level.

The bottom level which makes everything else work is physics and its  
language is mathematics.

Tony

phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au
http://tony-barry.emu.id.au


From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au  Mon Jan  8 14:32:46 2007
From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (Richard Chirgwin)
Date: Mon Jan  8 14:33:10 2007
Subject: [LINK] AJAX May Be Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <20070108114926.rqv6ey31knoc4gs4@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
References: <20070108114926.rqv6ey31knoc4gs4@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
Message-ID: <45A1BB5E.6070200@ozemail.com.au>

brd@iimetro.com.au wrote:
> AJAX May Be Considered Harmful
> Slashdot
> http://it.slashdot.org/it/07/01/06/216245.shtml
>
> "Security lists are abuzz about a presentation from the 23C3
> conference<http://events.ccc.de/congress/2006/Home>, which details a
> fundamental design flaw in Javascript
> <http://events.ccc.de/congress/2006/Fahrplan/events/1602.en.html>.
>
> The technique, called Prototype Hijacking, allows an attacker to redefine any
> feature of Javascript.
>
> The paper is called 'Subverting AJAX'
> <http://events.ccc.de/congress/2006/Fahrplan/attachments/1158-Subverting_Ajax.pdf>
> (pdf), and outlines a possible Web Worm that lives in the very fabric of Web 2.0
> and could kill the Web as we know it."
>
>   
That's an equivocation that crosses an awful lot of space, really 
quickly, on really stumpy short little legs ... Web 2.0 == "the Web as 
we know it."

RC
From brd at iimetro.com.au  Mon Jan  8 14:38:03 2007
From: brd at iimetro.com.au (brd@iimetro.com.au)
Date: Mon Jan  8 14:38:11 2007
Subject: [LINK] AJAX May Be Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <p06240815c1c766f9299d@[192.168.123.167]>
References: <20070108114926.rqv6ey31knoc4gs4@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
	<p06240815c1c766f9299d@[192.168.123.167]>
Message-ID: <20070108123803.tuxhlicytkd4c84o@webmail.iimetro.com.au>

Quoting Roger Clarke <Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au>:
> Note the pre-counter at
> http://it.slashdot.org/it/06/12/01/1634203.shtml
> An anonymous reader writes
> In reality, these issues existed well before AJAX. And, the 
> recommended security best practices remain unchanged.'"

This is one of those meaningless statements. It's a bit like saying that ID
theft has always existed and that you should always keep your wallet safe.

What I would like to know is: Does AJAX make the problem larger or smaller?

Computers have the unfortunate ability to magnify weaknesses. The time between
hitting the return key and "Oops, I shouldn't have done that" is reducing in
proportion to Moore's law.

-- 
Regards
brd

Bernard Robertson-Dunn
Sydney Australia
brd@iimetro.com.au

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From planetjim at gmail.com  Mon Jan  8 14:46:07 2007
From: planetjim at gmail.com (jim birch)
Date: Mon Jan  8 14:46:19 2007
Subject: [LINK] AJAX May Be Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <p06240815c1c766f9299d@192.168.123.167>
References: <20070108114926.rqv6ey31knoc4gs4@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
	<p06240815c1c766f9299d@192.168.123.167>
Message-ID: <39e534e70701071946s3aeaba38l495f555a07652ef4@mail.gmail.com>

On 08/01/07, Roger Clarke <Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au> quoted:
>
> "In reality, these issues existed well before AJAX."


Javascript has been around for a long time, so, it must be the XML that
makes AJAX really, really dangerous?

Personally, I've always found that verbose, text-based data formatting
schemes gave me a spooky feeling of something really big, dark and
uncontrollable lying hidden just below the surface.

More seriously, are they thick enough to believe their own bs, or, are they
just making a cynical grab for the limelight?  Or, both?

Jim
From Fred.Pilcher at act.gov.au  Mon Jan  8 14:57:11 2007
From: Fred.Pilcher at act.gov.au (Pilcher, Fred)
Date: Mon Jan  8 14:57:24 2007
Subject: [LINK] AJAX May Be Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <39e534e70701071946s3aeaba38l495f555a07652ef4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72062B7F7C@cal066.act.gov.au>

> On 08/01/07, Roger Clarke <Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au> quoted:
> >
> > "In reality, these issues existed well before AJAX."
> 
> 
> Javascript has been around for a long time, so, it must be 
> the XML that
> makes AJAX really, really dangerous?

My Web 2 sense is tingling... 
  
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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From cas at taz.net.au  Mon Jan  8 15:34:34 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Mon Jan  8 15:34:33 2007
Subject: [LINK] AJAX May Be Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <p06240815c1c766f9299d@[192.168.123.167]>
References: <20070108114926.rqv6ey31knoc4gs4@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
	<p06240815c1c766f9299d@[192.168.123.167]>
Message-ID: <20070108043434.GL26390@taz.net.au>

On Mon, Jan 08, 2007 at 02:13:57PM +1100, Roger Clarke wrote:
> At 11:49 +0900 8/1/07, brd@iimetro.com.au wrote:
> >The paper is called 'Subverting AJAX'
> ><http://events.ccc.de/congress/2006/Fahrplan/attachments/1158-Subverting_Ajax.pdf>
> >(pdf), and outlines a possible Web Worm that lives in the very 
> >fabric of Web 2.0
> >and could kill the Web as we know it."
> 
> Unsurprisingly, the server's suffering overload ...
> 
> 
> Note the pre-counter at
> http://it.slashdot.org/it/06/12/01/1634203.shtml
> An anonymous reader writes
> "Jeremiah Grossman (CTO of WhiteHat Security) has published           
> Myth-Busting - an article dismissing the hyped-up claims that AJAX    
> is insecure. He says: 'The hype surrounding AJAX and security risks   
> is hard to miss. Supposedly, this hot new technology responsible for  
> compelling web-based applications like Gmail and Google Maps harbors  
> a dark secret that opens the door to malicious hackers. Not exactly   
> true ... Word on the cyber-street is that AJAX is the harbinger       
> of larger attack surfaces, increased complexity, fake requests,       
> denial of service, deadly cross-site scripting (XSS) , reliance on    
> client-side security, and more.                                       

the problem isn't specific to "AJAX" (which, really, is not a new
technology, it's just a fancy new name for web pages with javascript
code).

the problem is inherent to running untrusted programs.  AJAX (and
javascript in general) doesn't increase the risk, it just makes it more
commonplace...especially as people start to think that trusting random
code from random sites is normal behaviour.

> In reality, these issues existed well before AJAX. And, the
> recommended security best practices remain unchanged.'"

yes. and teh recommended best practice is to disable javascript (and
java and shockwave and all other executable content from web sites).
enable them ONLY for sites that you would trust to run arbitrary
programs on your computer (remember that you can't restrict WHAT the
code does*, you can only decide whether the site can run js/swf/java/etc
code or not).


* with a few very limited exceptions. e.g. there are options in some
browsers to disable changing the status bar or popping up a new window.
those things are very specific actions and thus easy to block.

craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From rick at praxis.com.au  Mon Jan  8 19:37:39 2007
From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Mon Jan  8 19:37:49 2007
Subject: [LINK] AJAX May Be Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <20070108114926.rqv6ey31knoc4gs4@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
References: <20070108114926.rqv6ey31knoc4gs4@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
Message-ID: <45A202D3.8050500@praxis.com.au>

brd@iimetro.com.au wrote:

> AJAX May Be Considered Harmful
> Slashdot
> http://it.slashdot.org/it/07/01/06/216245.shtml

An interesting bit of real-world experience with Javascript and AJAX
was submitted anonymously to the above thread, which I will recklessly
quote here in its entirety. From the sounds of it, AJAX is not to be
considered a viable applications building platform.

cheers
rickw

------------------------------------------------------------------------

AJAX applications just aren't solid or stable, for the most part. We tried to integrate a number of them into our 
network here, and frankly each attempt went terribly. I'd like to think it was just one application vendor or AJAX 
toolkit that was problematic, but that wasn't the case.

We found a number of common problems with every AJAX application we tried. Just for the record, the applications 
included three CMS systems, a Web-based email system, two groupware systems, and three Web forums.

The first major problem with one of resource usage, on both the client-side and the server-side. Client-side, many AJAX 
applications consume far too much CPU time. From our investigation, it was due to the use of poor JavaScript algorithms 
that'd consume 100% of the CPU in some cases, for minutes on end. The applications "worked", in that they'd provide the 
correct result. It'd just take them far too long to get it done.

On the server-side, they'd again result in excessive CPU and RAM consumption. For one of the Webmail systems, we could 
only handle a fifth (yes, 20%) of what our old Perl-based system could. And that was on a quad-core Opteron system with 
8 GB of RAM! The Perl-based system was on a couple of 200 MHz Pentium systems, each with 128 MB of RAM. Even after 
assistance from the AJAX-based Webmail system's vendor, we were only able to handle roughly 90% of the number of 
transactions of our older system.

The second major problem is that of usability. Many of the AJAX apps we tried didn't play well with browser tabs, for 
instance. Some even fucked around with text input areas, resulting in copy-and-pasting no longer working. One 
application even prevented the text within a text field from being highlighted! We thought these problems may be 
browser-specific incompatibilities, be we ran into this same problem with Firefox, Safari, Opera, and even IE6! After 
talking with the vendor, they admitted these were known problems, and no solutions were presently available.

The third major problem is a lack of quality. Many AJAX applications are poorly coded and poorly designed. I think the 
main reason for that is because it's such an unstructured technology. Even competent software developers run into 
problems that cannot be solved easily, and thus must resort to hackish techniques to overcome these inherent problems.

The fourth major problem was that the users hated the systems. Of the few systems we managed to roll out successfully, 
the users absolutely hated them. Their complaints were a combination of the above three factors. The AJAX applications 
would not do what the user wanted. The AJAX applications did not conform to common practices (eg. copy-and-paste, 
textbox text selection, etc.). The AJAX applications ran far too slowly, even on fast client machines. The AJAX 
applications just plain didn't work!

All of our AJAX trials were abysmal failures. That's why we're sticking with the existing Perl- and Java-based systems 
that we currently use. They perform far better on much fewer resources, actually do what the users want, avoid violating 
the most common of conventions, and they do what they're supposed to. I'm sorry to say it, but AJAX might just be the 
worst technology I have ever had to deal with.
From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au  Mon Jan  8 20:50:35 2007
From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke)
Date: Mon Jan  8 20:50:55 2007
Subject: [LINK] AJAX May Be Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <45A202D3.8050500@praxis.com.au>
References: <20070108114926.rqv6ey31knoc4gs4@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
	<45A202D3.8050500@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <p0624081fc1c7c3cbeb06@[192.168.123.167]>

>brd@iimetro.com.au wrote:
>>  AJAX May Be Considered Harmful
>>  Slashdot
>>  http://it.slashdot.org/it/07/01/06/216245.shtml
>
At 19:37 +1100 8/1/07, Rick Welykochy wrote:
>An interesting bit of real-world experience with Javascript and AJAX
>was submitted anonymously to the above thread, which I will recklessly
>quote here in its entirety. From the sounds of it, AJAX is not to be
>considered a viable applications building platform.

Bugger copyright, this deserves wide distribution and widely 
distributed archival.  (Quite apart from the information content, 
even after years of practice I seldom manage to write with such 
clarity!).

>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>AJAX applications just aren't solid or stable, for the most part. We 
>tried to integrate a number of them into our network here, and 
>frankly each attempt went terribly. I'd like to think it was just 
>one application vendor or AJAX toolkit that was problematic, but 
>that wasn't the case.
>
>We found a number of common problems with every AJAX application we 
>tried. Just for the record, the applications included three CMS 
>systems, a Web-based email system, two groupware systems, and three 
>Web forums.
>
>The first major problem with one of resource usage, on both the 
>client-side and the server-side. Client-side, many AJAX applications 
>consume far too much CPU time. From our investigation, it was due to 
>the use of poor JavaScript algorithms that'd consume 100% of the CPU 
>in some cases, for minutes on end. The applications "worked", in 
>that they'd provide the correct result. It'd just take them far too 
>long to get it done.
>
>On the server-side, they'd again result in excessive CPU and RAM 
>consumption. For one of the Webmail systems, we could only handle a 
>fifth (yes, 20%) of what our old Perl-based system could. And that 
>was on a quad-core Opteron system with 8 GB of RAM! The Perl-based 
>system was on a couple of 200 MHz Pentium systems, each with 128 MB 
>of RAM. Even after assistance from the AJAX-based Webmail system's 
>vendor, we were only able to handle roughly 90% of the number of 
>transactions of our older system.
>
>The second major problem is that of usability. Many of the AJAX apps 
>we tried didn't play well with browser tabs, for instance. Some even 
>fucked around with text input areas, resulting in copy-and-pasting 
>no longer working. One application even prevented the text within a 
>text field from being highlighted! We thought these problems may be 
>browser-specific incompatibilities, be we ran into this same problem 
>with Firefox, Safari, Opera, and even IE6! After talking with the 
>vendor, they admitted these were known problems, and no solutions 
>were presently available.
>
>The third major problem is a lack of quality. Many AJAX applications 
>are poorly coded and poorly designed. I think the main reason for 
>that is because it's such an unstructured technology. Even competent 
>software developers run into problems that cannot be solved easily, 
>and thus must resort to hackish techniques to overcome these 
>inherent problems.
>
>The fourth major problem was that the users hated the systems. Of 
>the few systems we managed to roll out successfully, the users 
>absolutely hated them. Their complaints were a combination of the 
>above three factors. The AJAX applications would not do what the 
>user wanted. The AJAX applications did not conform to common 
>practices (eg. copy-and-paste, textbox text selection, etc.). The 
>AJAX applications ran far too slowly, even on fast client machines. 
>The AJAX applications just plain didn't work!
>
>All of our AJAX trials were abysmal failures. That's why we're 
>sticking with the existing Perl- and Java-based systems that we 
>currently use. They perform far better on much fewer resources, 
>actually do what the users want, avoid violating the most common of 
>conventions, and they do what they're supposed to. I'm sorry to say 
>it, but AJAX might just be the worst technology I have ever had to 
>deal with.
>_______________________________________________
>Link mailing list
>Link@mailman.anu.edu.au
>http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link

-- 
Roger Clarke                  http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/

Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd      78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA
                    Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916
mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au                http://www.xamax.com.au/

Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng  Australian National University
Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program      University of Hong Kong
Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre      Uni of NSW
From adrian at creative.net.au  Mon Jan  8 22:08:52 2007
From: adrian at creative.net.au (Adrian Chadd)
Date: Mon Jan  8 22:05:04 2007
Subject: [LINK] AJAX May Be Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <45A202D3.8050500@praxis.com.au>
References: <20070108114926.rqv6ey31knoc4gs4@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
	<45A202D3.8050500@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070108110852.GF11273@skywalker.creative.net.au>

On Mon, Jan 08, 2007, Rick Welykochy wrote:

> On the server-side, they'd again result in excessive CPU and RAM 
> consumption. For one of the Webmail systems, we could only handle a fifth 
> (yes, 20%) of what our old Perl-based system could. And that was on a 
> quad-core Opteron system with 8 GB of RAM! The Perl-based system was on a 
> couple of 200 MHz Pentium systems, each with 128 MB of RAM. Even after 
> assistance from the AJAX-based Webmail system's vendor, we were only able 
> to handle roughly 90% of the number of transactions of our older system.

I don't buy it. It has to be written -badly- for it to have that kind of
performance hit.

There's many reasons to think twice before deploying lots of AJAX'ed apps
but they have more to do with the people writing/verifying it than the
technology involved.

(Damnit Browser Vendors: where's my F$CKING sandbox that you touted as
a wonderful thing in the mid 90s?)



Adrian

From grove at zeta.org.au  Mon Jan  8 23:55:50 2007
From: grove at zeta.org.au (grove@zeta.org.au)
Date: Mon Jan  8 23:56:04 2007
Subject: [LINK] AJAX May Be Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <20070108110852.GF11273@skywalker.creative.net.au>
References: <20070108114926.rqv6ey31knoc4gs4@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
	<45A202D3.8050500@praxis.com.au>
	<20070108110852.GF11273@skywalker.creative.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701082336540.963@zathras.uws.edu.au>

On Mon, 8 Jan 2007, Adrian Chadd wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 08, 2007, Rick Welykochy wrote:
>
>> On the server-side, they'd again result in excessive CPU and RAM
>> consumption. For one of the Webmail systems, we could only handle a fifth
>> (yes, 20%) of what our old Perl-based system could. And that was on a
>> quad-core Opteron system with 8 GB of RAM! The Perl-based system was on a
>> couple of 200 MHz Pentium systems, each with 128 MB of RAM. Even after
>> assistance from the AJAX-based Webmail system's vendor, we were only able
>> to handle roughly 90% of the number of transactions of our older system.
>
> I don't buy it. It has to be written -badly- for it to have that kind of
> performance hit.
>
> There's many reasons to think twice before deploying lots of AJAX'ed apps
> but they have more to do with the people writing/verifying it than the
> technology involved.
>
> (Damnit Browser Vendors: where's my F$CKING sandbox that you touted as
> a wonderful thing in the mid 90s?)

One of the big issues is that a lot of programmers are not testing their
designs over a WAN or Internet.  Thus we see the fabled "it works 
great on my workstation" scenarios where hapless web monkey has a perfectly 
working suite of Ajax apps, but fails to identify what happens when 
you're pushing lots of data down the pipe, when you're hopping across
networks, being routed by a Content Switch, proxied, fragmented and 
retried.

In the middle of all this, you have situations where the servers themselves
are really not tuned properly for content of the appropriate type.   When
your appserver is pushing loads of Ajax enabled java servlets and 
the queries get stuck in lots of CLOSE_WAIT connections, which can 
be caused by a poorly written app, that either has a Java thread that
has lost it's parent, or a session closed too quick by a user, 
or a poorly formed SQL query that creates a seeming hang of the client,
which is then closed by the user and so on.

No one seems to test for these things much.  Rob, my partner, who is 
a web developer has recently started looking at Ajax as a solution 
to his problems, but has decided it is not properly ready yet.

He is in a position where the decree from above is that PHP is the language
to be used for web dev, hell in fact they are trying to force him to 
use a HTML editor instead of vi and so on.   So he is constrained by
being a Perl hacker, forced to work in the constraints of the 
Poorly Hosted Pages product and the related technologies.

We have found numerous problems with PHP, from the implementations
of the Oracle OCI plug, to the way it interacts with the user 
sessions and so on.   We have looked at workarounds and he has written
code that is as secure as is possible.   What he likes about PHP 
is the Object Oriented aspects of it - he's written beautiful, elegant
code that works great and even I can understand it.  But the handling 
of variables and the passing of values to parameters in functions 
is a bit painful, unlike the simple elegance of CGI.pm which can do 
anything you want, safely and simply.

So of course the time for development stretches out because to 
taint check your PHP code takes a lot longer than it does in Perl,
because when you taint perl, it whinges and carries on, whereas PHP 
will quite happily accept practically anything you throw at it.

This is where the problems with Ajax breaks down and what it is supposed
to accomplish - a form of Validation of user input prior to it hitting 
the database or whatever your tier is.   Ajax can do the Validation
stuff just fine, but it's no good if it can be readily usurped, because
then you have to rely on PHP to accept the guff it's been offered.

It's very tempting to use Ajax, because it does have some merit,
but there seems to be a fork in RAD development these days where 
the end product "just works" but really it's become a rush job, 
where only the most basic thought is put into what the data is really
doing on the network....


rachel

-- 
Rachel Polanskis                 Kingswood, Greater Western Sydney, Australia
grove@zeta.org.au                http://www.zeta.org.au/~grove/grove.html
 	"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security,
 	deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin, 1759
From stephen at melbpc.org.au  Tue Jan  9 02:51:27 2007
From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley)
Date: Tue Jan  9 02:51:46 2007
Subject: [LINK] EMF and Humans
In-Reply-To: <45A1762F.3070703@jcu.edu.au>
References: <C1BD8BA3.5E8%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<D686917D-EB4B-4479-A01F-C119B7864C0C@tony-barry.emu.id.au>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0701061348070.29813@zathras.uws.edu.au>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070108021323.01c56f98@melbpc.org.au>
	<45A1762F.3070703@jcu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070109012956.01020048@melbpc.org.au>

At 09:37 AM 8/01/2007, Mike Shearer wrote:

>> ps, with many examples of 'loving-empathy' human communications
>> especially, reportedly received telepathically though, I wouldn't be at
>> all surprised if, in extreme moments, we humans did have this ability.
> 
> Unlikely, unless you are satisfied with a fuzzy so-broad-its-meaningless
> message, to which you attach your own meaning and then feel that there
> has been real communication.

Yes well .. and between colleagues .. maybe one issue comes down to
expectations .. discuss ESP, and people expect all or nothing ... instant
3D movies.  We *are* finding new extra-sensory neuron-communication
channels (eg, TAARs)  Imho, the neurosciences ought look more at EMF.

-- 
Nature. Aug 10  2006
(snip) 442(7103):645-50.

A second class of chemosensory receptors in the olfactory epithelium.

Liberles SD,  Buck LB. 

Howard Hughes Medical Institute, Basic Sciences Division.. 1100 Fairview Avenue North, Seattle, Washington 98109, USA.

The mammalian olfactory system detects chemicals. as well as social cues that stimulate innate responses. 

Here we report the discovery of a second family of receptors in the mouse olfactory epithelium. Genes encoding these receptors, called 'trace amine-associated receptors' (TAARs), are present in human, mouse and fish. 

Like odorant receptors, individual mouse TAARs are expressed in unique subsets of neurons dispersed in the epithelium. Notably, at least three mouse TAARs recognize volatile amines found in urine: one detects a compound linked to stress, whereas the other two detect compounds enriched in male versus female urine-one of which is reportedly a pheromone. 

The evolutionary conservation of the TAAR family suggests a chemosensory function distinct from odorant receptors. Ligands identified for TAARs thus far suggest a function associated with the detection of social cues.

PMID: 16878137 [PubMed]
--

Cheers, Mike
Stephen Loosley 
BA Psych (Hons) & Grad Dip Psych Couns
(plus others and also lapsed-member APS)


-- 
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From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au  Mon Jan  8 16:40:46 2007
From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington)
Date: Tue Jan  9 09:47:01 2007
Subject: [LINK] Australian Government Web Accessibility Audit Findings,
 Canberra, 18 January 2007
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070108163523.01b88578@tomw.net.au>

Recommended:

>Seventh Canberra WSG meeting
>
>When: Thursday 18 January
>Time: 2.30 pm - 4.45 pm (please arrive by 2.15 pm to register with 
>security, even earlier if you need to find a car park)
>
>Where: Bunker Theatre, Department of the Environment and Heritage, 
>John Gorton Building, King Edward Tce, Parkes, ACT  2600
>
>Cost: Free
>RSVP: gavin.dispain@deh.gov.au (very important to speed up the sign 
>in process)
>
>First speaker: Alexi Paschalidis, Oxide Interactive Topic 1: Navy 
>web site redevelopment ...
>
>Second speaker: Gavin Dispain, Department of the Environment and Heritage
>Topic 2: 2006 web standards audit of Australian Government home pages
>During December 2006, the home pages of 105 Australian Government 
>web sites were audited for compliance with W3C, WAI and Australian 
>Government best practice web standards. Gavin will present the 
>findings of the audit.
>
>Web sites that were audited: aad, abs, accc, accesscard, afma, afp, 
>ag, agimo, ags, ahc, aic, amsa, anao, anbg, aph, apsc, apvma, army, 
>asada, asic, asio, ato, ausport, australia, 
>australianapprenticeships, awm, bom, casa, centrelink, chah, 
>citizenship, coag, community, communitywatergrants, connected, 
>connectedwater, crimecommission, crimtrac, cultureandrecreation, 
>customs, daff, dcita, defence, deh, dest, dewr, dfat, dha, 
>directory, dotars, dpmc, dsd, dva, environment, ephc, 
>e-strategyguide, facs, finance, ga, gbrmpa, gcu, gov, greenhouse, 
>greenvehicleguide, harbourtrust, health, heritage, hreoc, 
>humanservices, immi, industry, ipaustralia, jobsearch, lebmf, lwa, 
>mdbc, medicareaustralia, mincos, movingintowork, naa, napswq, 
>nathers, nationalcapital, navy, nht, nla, npi, nrm, nsif, nwc, 
>oilrecycling, oipc, orer, ozco, peo, pm, privacy, publications, 
>smos, tenders, tga, travelsmart, treasury, waterrating, wea
>
>Third speaker: Karl Hayes, Hitwise Topic 3: Best practice tactics 
>for government web sites ...
>... <file://www.webstandardsgroup.org>www.webstandardsgroup.org ...

ps: Make sure you book and turn up on time. You can't wander in off 
the street, as the meeting is held in the "bunker theatre" UNDER the 
Department of Environment <http://www.tomw.net.au/travel/gallery.shtml#jgb>.



Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150
Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd            ABN: 17 088 714 309
PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617                http://www.tomw.net.au/
Visiting Fellow, ANU      Blog: http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/atom.xml  

From carl at xena.IPAustralia.gov.au  Tue Jan  9 09:56:31 2007
From: carl at xena.IPAustralia.gov.au (Carl Makin)
Date: Tue Jan  9 09:56:29 2007
Subject: [LINK] AJAX May Be Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <45A202D3.8050500@praxis.com.au>
References: <20070108114926.rqv6ey31knoc4gs4@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
	<45A202D3.8050500@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <C0F9D9D0-E95C-4441-AC5A-18A5B486B27C@xena.ipaustralia.gov.au>

Morning All,
We're running an build and release management tool called  
"Tableaux" (http://www.incanica.com/tableaux.html) that started out  
as just a java servelet but over the past couple of years has  
migrated to being heavily AJAXified.

It's an impressive piece of software that, if it failed, would  
paralyse software development here.  It's robust, reliable and the  
users love it.

Yes, AJAX can be a complete horror, but that's no worse than the  
majority of IE6 or flash only websites out there.

On 08/01/2007, at 7:37 PM, Rick Welykochy wrote:

> AJAX May Be Considered Harmful
> Slashdot
> http://it.slashdot.org/it/07/01/06/216245.shtml
.
.
> AJAX applications just aren't solid or stable, for the most part.  
> We tried to integrate a number of them into our network here, and  
> frankly each attempt went terribly. I'd like to think it was just  
> one application vendor or AJAX toolkit that was problematic, but  
> that wasn't the case.

Tableaux runs 24/7 here, has up to 30 concurrent users and manages  
deployments across 20 environments.  It's rock stable and very  
responsive.  We have it running on a Sun v280 which has dual 750Mhz  
SPARC IIIi processors, which is not that big a box.

.
.
> All of our AJAX trials were abysmal failures. That's why we're  
> sticking with the existing Perl- and Java-based systems that we  
> currently use. They perform far better on much fewer resources,  
> actually do what the users want, avoid violating the most common of  
> conventions, and they do what they're supposed to. I'm sorry to say  
> it, but AJAX might just be the worst technology I have ever had to  
> deal with.

This guys sounds like he's had a nightmare, but our experience is  
quite different.  Mind you we're only using one AJAX app, but it's  
fast, reliable and easy to use.

AJAX has it's problems, but give it some time to settle down and mature.


Carl.

From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Tue Jan  9 11:40:27 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Tue Jan  9 11:42:50 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
Message-ID: <C1C92FAB.628%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>

Re Fred's "Nuclear Nightmares"?

I only saw a few bits of it.  It seemed to be a rehash of a lot of dubious
material that I'd seen before.

It seems to me that both sides are playing the public for suckers in the
Chernobyl debate (as they also did in the Bopal debate).

Both exaggerate their figures, and make unsustainable claims.

I spent a lot of time looking at the Chernobly figures a few years ago, and
came to the conclusion that I couldn't trust any of them enough to make a
decision either way.

Everyone in this nuclear area is already so committed to one side or the
other that it would be very difficult to find a group that you could trust
to make an intelligent inquiry.

Personally, in these cases I always follow:
1.  the Precautionary Principle (assume the worst, if the potential is
catastrophic),
2. Russel's Dictum (that when scientists are in dispute, the layman is wise
to sit on the fence),
3. Rumsfeld's Rubrik ("We don't know what we don't know)



On the question of " low dosages may actually have a beneficial effect".
This is called Hormesis in the literature.

It is a theory that radiation below a threshold (not approached by
cellphones) imparts a statistically significant increase in resistance to
cancers among humans.

The Neo-con technical guru George Gilder has proposed this as an explanation
for his claimed reduction in cancer rates in developed countries.

Unfortunately, the main scientific and evidential support for his theory is
pretty close to zero.

The idea was also promoted by the tobacco companies -- suggesting that
environmental smoke in offices may have a protective effect against
cancer-causing air pollution.  And by some water polluting companies who
dumped toxic waste into aquifers.



-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458

From Fred.Pilcher at act.gov.au  Tue Jan  9 12:04:36 2007
From: Fred.Pilcher at act.gov.au (Pilcher, Fred)
Date: Tue Jan  9 12:04:44 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <C1C92FAB.628%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72062B7F99@cal066.act.gov.au>

Stewart wrote:

> Re Fred's "Nuclear Nightmares"?
> 
> I only saw a few bits of it.  It seemed to be a rehash of a 
> lot of dubious material that I'd seen before.

Thanks for that reality check, Stewart. As a card-carrying member of the Australian Skeptics I had my suspicions. I'll adopt Russel's Dictum as my own in this case.

What pushed me over the edge was the timing. It just felt too co-incidental that, at a time in which politicians and industry are softening us up for noocular power, new research should magically come to light showing that radiation is actually good for us.

It would be wonderful news if it were true, and we need to be particularly careful about believing something that we'd really like to believe merely because we'd like to believe it. 

Skepticism demands that we keep an open mind, but not be so open that out brains fall out.

Fred 
  
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From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Tue Jan  9 12:18:25 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Tue Jan  9 12:22:38 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <C1C92FAB.628%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <C1C92FAB.628%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$242hd7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 11:40 AM 9/01/2007, Stewart Fist wrote:
>The idea was also promoted by the tobacco companies -- suggesting that
>environmental smoke in offices may have a protective effect against
>cancer-causing air pollution.  And by some water polluting companies who
>dumped toxic waste into aquifers.

Sounds like the same self-serving cods wallop (my spell checker said 
these are two words, not one, but I and it may be wrong) that I heard 
on local ABC this morning. CHOICE is doing an expose on the 
non-evidence for the support of the effectiveness of herbal cures 
like aloe vera and lavender oil. A caller who was obviously a 
'user'  if not a seller of these products rang the show later and 
took poor Indira Naidu to task for bias toward the medical 
establishment. I had to laugh because the caller couldn't see her own 
bias when she 'swore' by the positive impact of these 'cures' based 
on some pseudo-'science' examples comparing the effects of potato 
skins on healing burns with no scars and no pain in 15 minutes. Of 
course she wouldn't listen to the show's compare, Lindy Burns (no 
pun, real name), who asked why scientific tests would be so wrong? 
The caller was so exasperated! Of course not everything that is good 
can be measured!

I nearly peed myself! There's no debating illogic with some people 
who truly 'believe'. (George Bush et al come to mind as well.)

Jan


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From kauer at biplane.com.au  Tue Jan  9 12:37:45 2007
From: kauer at biplane.com.au (Karl Auer)
Date: Tue Jan  9 12:38:38 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <5ii0ro$242hd7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
References: <C1C92FAB.628%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<5ii0ro$242hd7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <1168306665.29573.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2007-01-09 at 12:18 +1100, Jan Whitaker wrote:
> establishment. I had to laugh because the caller couldn't see her own 
> bias when she 'swore' by the positive impact of these 'cures' based 
> on some pseudo-'science' examples comparing the effects of potato 
> skins on healing burns with no scars and no pain in 15 minutes. Of 
> course she wouldn't listen to the show's compare, Lindy Burns (no 
> pun, real name), who asked why scientific tests would be so wrong? 

There have been a lot of real, rational, sceptical scientific studies
into the placebo effect, and the results can be truly startling. People
tend to forget the placebo effect.

What this says to me is that provided a remedy is at worst harmless,
there should be no problem with people taking that remedy, or even with
that remedy being prescribed to them, because it if they believe it will
help them then it very likely WILL help them, even if only by improving
their perceived well-being.

Such remedies only cause harm when they displace or interfere with
proven remedies (especially in the case of people in the care of others,
like children), or when they exploit the credulous.

Regards, K.

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/~kauer/                  +61-428-957160 (mob)

From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Tue Jan  9 12:40:38 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Tue Jan  9 12:43:07 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
Message-ID: <C1C93DC6.629%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>

Epidemiology is the science of looking at clusters of change in an otherwise
unchanged baseline population.  When the change effects everyone in the
community, then epidemiology is virtually useless.  This is a problem that
Chernobyl faced, and which we face today with radio and other environmental
exposures.

Epidemiology just doesn't have tools for detecting changes that take place
across whole populations.


It also has few useful tools for detecting changes that take place slowly
and insidiously over time.  It can handle causal-consequences that happen
within days or even up to a year or so, but not those spread over a couple
of decades.  

Politics also is obsessed with short-term and critical outcomes - rather
than with the long-term and insidious.

So the funding, naturally enough, goes to researching those problems the
politicians can see,  to the exclusion of those that may only be suspected
or hinted at in the evidence.  The assumption is that they can be dealt with
later.  

You can't really argue with this -- although it does show a certain
superficiality to our consideration of most of these long-term concerns.
And as we gradually solve most of the short-term/critical problems, we get
increasingly left with the long-term/insidious.

[A decade or so ago I went on a crusade to try and have the Labor Government
fund a special institute within the CSIRO who's job it would be to look at
the potential for long-term insidious health problems in the Australian
community.  But no one in the Party thought it was a useful idea.

Lyn Allison of the Democrats was the only one in Parliament who seriously
considered the idea.]



On the question of thresholds, I think it is obvious that some toxic
substances would have a threshold because we have evolved in an environment
with toxic susbstances, and some wouldn't.  But it also depends on what you
mean by threshold; usually the term is only applied to critical
consequences.  

If you give a certain amount to a lab rat, it might roll-over and die, so
that is obviously above the threshold.  If it show no immediate reaction, it
is said to be below the threshold.

But that tells you nothing about giving low-doses to the rat over a two-year
life span unless you extend the program of research, and that will cost
about $2 million to get statistically significant numbers with rats.

And even then you can't extrapolate to a 90 year human life-span.


-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458

From adrian at creative.net.au  Tue Jan  9 12:50:15 2007
From: adrian at creative.net.au (Adrian Chadd)
Date: Tue Jan  9 12:46:19 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <1168306665.29573.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <C1C92FAB.628%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<5ii0ro$242hd7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
	<1168306665.29573.30.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20070109015015.GC20784@skywalker.creative.net.au>

On Tue, Jan 09, 2007, Karl Auer wrote:
> On Tue, 2007-01-09 at 12:18 +1100, Jan Whitaker wrote:
> > establishment. I had to laugh because the caller couldn't see her own 
> > bias when she 'swore' by the positive impact of these 'cures' based 
> > on some pseudo-'science' examples comparing the effects of potato 
> > skins on healing burns with no scars and no pain in 15 minutes. Of 
> > course she wouldn't listen to the show's compare, Lindy Burns (no 
> > pun, real name), who asked why scientific tests would be so wrong? 
> 
> There have been a lot of real, rational, sceptical scientific studies
> into the placebo effect, and the results can be truly startling. People
> tend to forget the placebo effect.

Taking first/second year Psychology at University has been a bit of an
eye-opener. They talk about the "human, heal thyself" rates in relation
to the placebo effect. The second year courses really seem to try and
drill into people that they're looking not only for statistically significant
effects but improved healing rates from the baseline self-healing rate.

Sometimes I wish this kind of exposure to critical thinking was a requirement
at upper secondary schooling levels but I know how unrealistic that'd be.



Adrian

From alan at austlii.edu.au  Tue Jan  9 12:47:27 2007
From: alan at austlii.edu.au (Alan L Tyree)
Date: Tue Jan  9 12:48:44 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <5ii0ro$242hd7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
References: <C1C92FAB.628%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<5ii0ro$242hd7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <20070109124727.5ed65ed2.alan@austlii.edu.au>

On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 12:18:25 +1100
Jan Whitaker <jwhit@melbpc.org.au> wrote:

> At 11:40 AM 9/01/2007, Stewart Fist wrote:
> >The idea was also promoted by the tobacco companies -- suggesting
> >that environmental smoke in offices may have a protective effect
> >against cancer-causing air pollution.  And by some water polluting
> >companies who dumped toxic waste into aquifers.
> 
> Sounds like the same self-serving cods wallop (my spell checker said 
> these are two words, not one, but I and it may be wrong) that I heard 
> on local ABC this morning. CHOICE is doing an expose on the 
> non-evidence for the support of the effectiveness of herbal cures 
> like aloe vera and lavender oil. A caller who was obviously a 
> 'user'  if not a seller of these products rang the show later and 
> took poor Indira Naidu to task for bias toward the medical 
> establishment. I had to laugh because the caller couldn't see her own 
> bias when she 'swore' by the positive impact of these 'cures' based 
> on some pseudo-'science' examples comparing the effects of potato 
> skins on healing burns with no scars and no pain in 15 minutes. Of 
> course she wouldn't listen to the show's compare, Lindy Burns (no 
> pun, real name), who asked why scientific tests would be so wrong? 

Am I the only one here old enough to remember the Club of Rome? Of
course, those weren't scientific tests, they were computer models. Like
most of the "scientific" predictions of today.

Alan


> The caller was so exasperated! Of course not everything that is good 
> can be measured!
> 
> I nearly peed myself! There's no debating illogic with some people 
> who truly 'believe'. (George Bush et al come to mind as well.)
> 
> Jan
> 
> 
> Jan Whitaker
> JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
> jwhit@janwhitaker.com
> business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
> personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
> commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/
> 
> 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
> there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
> _ __________________ _
> _______________________________________________
> Link mailing list
> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au
> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link
> 


-- 
Alan L Tyree                    http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel: +61 2 4782 2670            Mobile: +61 427 486 206
Fax: +61 2 4782 7092            FWD: 615662
From ivan at itrundle.com  Tue Jan  9 13:00:34 2007
From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle)
Date: Tue Jan  9 13:00:48 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <C1C93DC6.629%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <C1C93DC6.629%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <4EA8393C-42EF-4F3A-B9D2-133875EDA5D5@itrundle.com>


On 09/01/2007, at 12:40 PM, Stewart Fist wrote:

> Epidemiology is the science of looking at clusters of change in an  
> otherwise
> unchanged baseline population.  When the change effects everyone in  
> the
> community, then epidemiology is virtually useless.

Sorry for being a pedant here, but I believe that the correct word is  
'affect', and it is beginning to bother me that a subject line AND  
comment can contain the same mistake...

I am trying to effect a change here, though I might be affected by  
the effect, especially if I'm not very effective.

Just don't get me started on affective impact... (my Psych days are  
long over)

iT

--
Ivan Trundle
http://itrundle.com ivan@itrundle.com
ph: +61 (0)418 244 259 fx: +61 (0)2 6286 8742
skype: callto://ivanovitchk


From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Tue Jan  9 13:21:34 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Tue Jan  9 13:27:34 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <C1C93DC6.629%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <C1C93DC6.629%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$243c4q@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 12:40 PM 9/01/2007, Stewart Fist wrote:
>But that tells you nothing about giving low-doses to the rat over a two-year
>life span unless you extend the program of research, and that will cost
>about $2 million to get statistically significant numbers with rats.
>
>And even then you can't extrapolate to a 90 year human life-span.

That was the problem with most long-term effects things we are seeing 
today. Asbestos was always 'sold' as good fire-retardent. I remember 
that when I was a kid. So it's no wonder it was used in buildings! 
Economic reasons, right? I don't need to mention tobacco which is 
obvious. Lead in paint is another, as is the mercury used in amalgam 
tooth fillings. How were the effects of these eventually discovered 
since they are obviously now known as problems over time?

Jan


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Tue Jan  9 13:22:43 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Tue Jan  9 13:27:40 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <20070109124727.5ed65ed2.alan@austlii.edu.au>
References: <C1C92FAB.628%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<5ii0ro$242hd7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
	<20070109124727.5ed65ed2.alan@austlii.edu.au>
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$243c4v@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 12:47 PM 9/01/2007, Alan L Tyree wrote:
> > course she wouldn't listen to the show's compare, Lindy Burns (no
> > pun, real name), who asked why scientific tests would be so wrong?
>
>Am I the only one here old enough to remember the Club of Rome? Of
>course, those weren't scientific tests, they were computer models. Like
>most of the "scientific" predictions of today.

I remember them from the world of 'conspiracies', but not as it would 
relate to scientific analysis.

>Taking first/second year Psychology at University has been a bit of an
>eye-opener. They talk about the "human, heal thyself" rates in relation
>to the placebo effect. The second year courses really seem to try and
>drill into people that they're looking not only for statistically significant
>effects but improved healing rates from the baseline self-healing rate.
>
>Sometimes I wish this kind of exposure to critical thinking was a requirement
>at upper secondary schooling levels but I know how unrealistic that'd be.

I was going to mention the concept of 'wait a awhile and it will get 
better' which fits colds and many other ailments. I reckon we could 
reduce our health costs by about 30% merely by pointing this out to 
new mothers.

Jan


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From adrian at creative.net.au  Tue Jan  9 13:39:22 2007
From: adrian at creative.net.au (Adrian Chadd)
Date: Tue Jan  9 13:35:27 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <5ii0ro$243c4v@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
References: <C1C92FAB.628%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<5ii0ro$242hd7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
	<20070109124727.5ed65ed2.alan@austlii.edu.au>
	<5ii0ro$243c4v@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <20070109023922.GE20784@skywalker.creative.net.au>

On Tue, Jan 09, 2007, Jan Whitaker wrote:

(Where'd my attribution go?)

> >Taking first/second year Psychology at University has been a bit of an
> >eye-opener. They talk about the "human, heal thyself" rates in relation
> >to the placebo effect. The second year courses really seem to try and
> >drill into people that they're looking not only for statistically 
> >significant
> >effects but improved healing rates from the baseline self-healing rate.
> >
> >Sometimes I wish this kind of exposure to critical thinking was a 
> >requirement
> >at upper secondary schooling levels but I know how unrealistic that'd be.
> 
> I was going to mention the concept of 'wait a awhile and it will get 
> better' which fits colds and many other ailments. I reckon we could 
> reduce our health costs by about 30% merely by pointing this out to 
> new mothers.

You also have to ensure you're not -defeating- our natural healing
abilities. Eg: research done into the effects of over-steralised environments
on developing immune systems (anyone know the literature for this?) and
perhaps the obesity stuff which is in the newspapers at the present.



Adrian

From link at todd.inoz.com  Tue Jan  9 14:08:10 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Tue Jan  9 14:29:37 2007
Subject: [LINK] EMF and Humans
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070109012956.01020048@melbpc.org.au>
References: <C1BD8BA3.5E8%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<D686917D-EB4B-4479-A01F-C119B7864C0C@tony-barry.emu.id.au>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0701061348070.29813@zathras.uws.edu.au>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070108021323.01c56f98@melbpc.org.au>
	<45A1762F.3070703@jcu.edu.au>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070109012956.01020048@melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070109140640.03084588@wheresmymailserver.com>

At 02:51 AM 9/01/2007, Stephen Loosley wrote:
>At 09:37 AM 8/01/2007, Mike Shearer wrote:
>
> >> ps, with many examples of 'loving-empathy' human communications
> >> especially, reportedly received telepathically though, I wouldn't be at
> >> all surprised if, in extreme moments, we humans did have this ability.
> >
> > Unlikely, unless you are satisfied with a fuzzy so-broad-its-meaningless
> > message, to which you attach your own meaning and then feel that there
> > has been real communication.

Again I point to the Global Consciousness Project and it's ten year study 
around the world of human energy emissions.

<http://noosphere.princeton.edu/>Global Consciousness Project -- 
consciousness, group consciousness, mind


>Yes well .. and between colleagues .. maybe one issue comes down to
>expectations .. discuss ESP, and people expect all or nothing ... instant
>3D movies.

What has ESP got to do with 3D movies?

>We *are* finding new extra-sensory neuron-communication
>channels (eg, TAARs)  Imho, the neurosciences ought look more at EMF.

Of course!  EMF is the measure of energy in movement :)


From link at todd.inoz.com  Tue Jan  9 14:09:41 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Tue Jan  9 14:29:44 2007
Subject: [LINK] NSW steers clear of Vista
In-Reply-To: <45A29E05.1080707@lannet.com.au>
References: <45A29E05.1080707@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070109140834.03084818@wheresmymailserver.com>


No.

More likely they didn't want to go through the sheer hell it is to upgrade 
thousands of workstations, take thousands of support calls and deal with 
hardware and other upgrades, just to install a $80 piece of software.

I know I wouldn't.

At 06:39 AM 9/01/2007, Howard Lowndes wrote:
><hfl>
>Governments getting it right...???
></hfl>
>
>http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,21024831%5E15306,00.html
>
>THE NSW government has shied away from Microsoft's new Windows Vista 
>operating systems after executives in charge of the state's $1 billion 
>computing budget agreed they saw little value in upgrading to the software.
>[...]

From eleanor at pacific.net.au  Sat Jan  6 20:00:10 2007
From: eleanor at pacific.net.au (Eleanor Lister)
Date: Tue Jan  9 14:38:10 2007
Subject: [LINK] SPAM to my link only address:  Fwd: within my wrath of you.
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20070106185915.037f3bf0@wheresmymailserver.com>
References: <6.2.0.14.0.20070106161800.03081d28@mail.ah.net>	<459F47B7.1070104@lannet.com.au>
	<6.2.0.14.0.20070106185915.037f3bf0@wheresmymailserver.com>
Message-ID: <459F651A.5090705@pacific.net.au>

Adam Todd wrote:
> At 05:54 PM 6/01/2007, Howard Lowndes wrote:
>> I hate to tell you but the Link archive is an open archive, one
>> reason why I use:
>> X-No-Archive: yes
>> in my mail headers.
>
> Yes but most publishing software munges the addresses!
>
>> OK, my pearls of wisdom are not cast before swine, but neither is my
>> email address.
>
> Oh it's OK, I'll just change the address :)
>
i have my real spam under control, but i am getting a mountain of
redirected spam where some of my email addresses are being set as "Reply
To" in the spam, so i get all the spamfilters sending it to me

i don't quite understand some of the spam, it can't really be targeted
or i wouldn't get:

* foreign medications, kinda pointless since our PBS makes them cheaper
than the spammers' goods

* offers of govt finance that only americans can apply for

* Viagra & penis enlargement (guys, figure out why i ain't interested,
please)

and many more, equally pointless.

why can't they offer me something i would buy, like a new camera, or
some nice shoes with 3" heels, or a date with James Bond?

it's the lack of imagination that offends.

-- 
------------
Eleanor Ashley Lister
South Sydney Greens
http://ssg.nsw.greens.org.au
webmistress@ssg.nsw.greens.org.au

From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Tue Jan  9 14:36:30 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Tue Jan  9 14:38:51 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
Message-ID: <C1C958EE.631%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>

Ivan pendants:

> I believe that the correct word is 'affect', and it is beginning to bother me
> that a subject line AND comment can contain the same mistake...

Dead right Ivan.  Spelling never was my fourtay.



-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458

From ivan at itrundle.com  Tue Jan  9 15:05:09 2007
From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle)
Date: Tue Jan  9 15:05:29 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <C1C958EE.631%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <C1C958EE.631%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <41595EE5-7D24-4314-A8FA-9FA372D6DFEA@itrundle.com>


On 09/01/2007, at 2:36 PM, Stewart Fist wrote:

> Ivan pendants:
>
>> I believe that the correct word is 'affect', and it is beginning  
>> to bother me
>> that a subject line AND comment can contain the same mistake...
>
> Dead right Ivan.  Spelling never was my fourtay.

Dead write indeed. You righters and journey lists aural the same -  
expecting us editors to pick up the peace is.

<still sitting here with flame-retardant suit for protection>

iT

From planetjim at gmail.com  Tue Jan  9 15:36:57 2007
From: planetjim at gmail.com (jim birch)
Date: Tue Jan  9 15:37:09 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <5ii0ro$243c4v@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
References: <C1C92FAB.628%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<5ii0ro$242hd7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
	<20070109124727.5ed65ed2.alan@austlii.edu.au>
	<5ii0ro$243c4v@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <39e534e70701082036y47cf8551q2dfdb0c28464341e@mail.gmail.com>

On 09/01/07, Jan Whitaker <jwhit@melbpc.org.au> wrote:
>
>
> I was going to mention the concept of 'wait a awhile and it will get
> better' which fits colds and many other ailments. I reckon we could
> reduce our health costs by about 30% merely by pointing this out to
> new mothers.


Similarly, it is demonstrable that singing the national anthem out load each
day before breakfast cures colds, and generally within only a week or two.

For anyone interested in this stuff (like me), I strongly recommend a book I
recently read on and around this subject: Six impossible things before
breakfast, by Lewis Wolpert.  It's an inquiry into the nature of belief, but
unlike the array of philosophical enquiries (eg Popper) it takes a
biological perspective, looking at what the evolutionary basis might be for
developing a brain capable of belief, and what the limitations of the system
might be.  Along the way, he looks at what animals can and cannot do, what
people can and can't do, and brings in lots of other interesting stuff, like
the tool making capacities of ravens.

His take: once we developed a belief system that's always switched on, it
became intolerable to not have reasons for important life events, like
droughts, disease, death, etc,  so we began producing explanations by any
available means.  We're reasonably good on the simple, like figuring that
clubbing an antelope produces food, but producing reliable beliefs on
difficult problems like weather patterns and disease requires us to
relinquish simple belief producing methods and resort to slow
counterintuitive processes like the scientific method, statistics, and
complex reasoned analysis.

He argues that no one can do this all the time, we are - for "good"
biological reasons - just too prone to grabbing beliefs by any available
method, so the best we can hope for is to require that where important
aspects of other people's lives are dependent on our beliefs we should be
required to use methods that produce reliable beliefs.

That's my nutshell, but if you're interested, borrow or buy the  book; I
enjoyed it and it made me think and reevaluate.  For me, it's a great
insight into why certain types of disagreement like political arguments can
persist seemingly without limit, basically, they are in the unreliable zone!

Cheers

Jim
From rick at praxis.com.au  Tue Jan  9 16:53:07 2007
From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Tue Jan  9 16:53:28 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <5ii0ro$242hd7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
References: <C1C92FAB.628%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<5ii0ro$242hd7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <45A32DC3.5090403@praxis.com.au>

Jan Whitaker wrote:

> I nearly peed myself! There's no debating illogic with some people who 
> truly 'believe'. (George Bush et al come to mind as well.)

You begin to touch on many of the points raised by Richard Dawkins on
ABC/RN just before Xmas, promoting his new book "The God Deception".

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-dawkins/why-there-almost-certainl_b_32164.html?p=24

contains some of his thinking in blog format. Basically, the WORLD is suffering
pretty bad due to religion and irrational belief systems that affect all
areas of human endeavour from politics to sex. Hey ... sounds like a dinner
party conversation!

Anway, getting off topic now.

cheers
rickw



-- 
_________________________________
Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services

Your food stamps will be stopped effective March 1992 because we received notice
that you passed away. May God bless you. You may reapply if there is a change in
your circumstances.
      -- Department of Social Services, Greenville, South Carolina
From josh at email.nu  Tue Jan  9 16:53:56 2007
From: josh at email.nu (Josh Rowe)
Date: Tue Jan  9 16:54:14 2007
Subject: [LINK] DCITA Review - submissions posted
Message-ID: <20070109055356.GB13541@whim.sanctum.com.au>

The submissions to the DCITA "Review of the structure and operation of the .au Internet domain" have been posted here:

http://www.dcita.gov.au/communications_and_technology/consultation_and_submissions/review_of_the_structure_and_operation_of_the_.au_internet_domain

http://shorterlink.com/?7924AT


Josh
--
http://josh.id.au/
From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au  Tue Jan  9 17:15:00 2007
From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry)
Date: Tue Jan  9 17:15:14 2007
Subject: [LINK] AJAX May Be Considered Harmful
In-Reply-To: <20070108123803.tuxhlicytkd4c84o@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
References: <20070108114926.rqv6ey31knoc4gs4@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
	<p06240815c1c766f9299d@[192.168.123.167]>
	<20070108123803.tuxhlicytkd4c84o@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
Message-ID: <583D6C0F-9030-4B27-AFE0-41741F6A5355@tony-barry.emu.id.au>


On 08/01/2007, at 2:38 PM, brd@iimetro.com.au wrote:

> Computers have the unfortunate ability to magnify weaknesses.

Very true. I draw very badly. Completely lacking in any artistic  
sense. However with the aid of a good drawing program I can do very  
bad drawings much more quickly.

Tony

phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au
http://tony-barry.emu.id.au


From kim.holburn at gmail.com  Tue Jan  9 19:11:39 2007
From: kim.holburn at gmail.com (Kim Holburn)
Date: Tue Jan  9 19:13:07 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <45A32DC3.5090403@praxis.com.au>
References: <C1C92FAB.628%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<5ii0ro$242hd7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
	<45A32DC3.5090403@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <4D9DFC16-F9DC-45DC-B56F-D25E5FF3F88A@gmail.com>


On 2007/Jan/09, at 6:53 AM, Rick Welykochy wrote:

> Jan Whitaker wrote:
>
>> I nearly peed myself! There's no debating illogic with some people  
>> who truly 'believe'. (George Bush et al come to mind as well.)
>
> You begin to touch on many of the points raised by Richard Dawkins on
> ABC/RN just before Xmas, promoting his new book "The God Deception".
>
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-dawkins/why-there-almost- 
> certainl_b_32164.html?p=24
>
> contains some of his thinking in blog format. Basically, the WORLD  
> is suffering
> pretty bad due to religion and irrational belief systems that  
> affect all
> areas of human endeavour from politics to sex. Hey ... sounds like  
> a dinner
> party conversation!
>
> Anway, getting off topic now.

Just to be really OT there was an article about Dawkin's book in  
NewScientist a couple of months back.  He was saying that religion  
has been responsible for more killings than any other cause.  The  
writer of the article pointed out that the four or so "regimes" of  
the twentieth century that have been responsible for the most and the  
most systemic and state orchestrated killings have all been secular  
states: Germany under Hitler, Cambodia under Pol Pot, Russia under  
Stalin and China under Mao.  Perhaps religion has an ameliorating  
effect on human violence.

--
Kim Holburn
IT Network & Security Consultant
Ph: +39 06 855 4294  M: +39 3342707610
mailto:kim@holburn.net  aim://kimholburn
skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request

Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny.
                           -- Lloyd Biggle, Jr. Analog, Apr 1961



From liddy at sunriseresearch.org  Tue Jan  9 19:31:02 2007
From: liddy at sunriseresearch.org (Liddy Nevile)
Date: Tue Jan  9 19:31:21 2007
Subject: [LINK] Australian Government Web Accessibility Audit Findings,
	Canberra, 18 January 2007
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070108163523.01b88578@tomw.net.au>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070108163523.01b88578@tomw.net.au>
Message-ID: <27C20379-248C-4474-BD06-4D3B534BF4DB@sunriseresearch.org>

Will you report on the event for those of us who can't make it, please?

Liddy

On 08/01/2007, at 4:40 PM, Tom Worthington wrote:

>
> Recommended:
>
>> Seventh Canberra WSG meeting
>>
>> When: Thursday 18 January
>> Time: 2.30 pm - 4.45 pm (please arrive by 2.15 pm to register with  
>> security, even earlier if you need to find a car park)
>>
>> Where: Bunker Theatre, Department of the Environment and Heritage,  
>> John Gorton Building, King Edward Tce, Parkes, ACT  2600
>>
>> Cost: Free
>> RSVP: gavin.dispain@deh.gov.au (very important to speed up the  
>> sign in process)
>>
>> First speaker: Alexi Paschalidis, Oxide Interactive Topic 1: Navy  
>> web site redevelopment ...
>>
>> Second speaker: Gavin Dispain, Department of the Environment and  
>> Heritage
>> Topic 2: 2006 web standards audit of Australian Government home pages
>> During December 2006, the home pages of 105 Australian Government  
>> web sites were audited for compliance with W3C, WAI and Australian  
>> Government best practice web standards. Gavin will present the  
>> findings of the audit.
>>
>> Web sites that were audited: aad, abs, accc, accesscard, afma,  
>> afp, ag, agimo, ags, ahc, aic, amsa, anao, anbg, aph, apsc, apvma,  
>> army, asada, asic, asio, ato, ausport, australia,  
>> australianapprenticeships, awm, bom, casa, centrelink, chah,  
>> citizenship, coag, community, communitywatergrants, connected,  
>> connectedwater, crimecommission, crimtrac, cultureandrecreation,  
>> customs, daff, dcita, defence, deh, dest, dewr, dfat, dha,  
>> directory, dotars, dpmc, dsd, dva, environment, ephc, e- 
>> strategyguide, facs, finance, ga, gbrmpa, gcu, gov, greenhouse,  
>> greenvehicleguide, harbourtrust, health, heritage, hreoc,  
>> humanservices, immi, industry, ipaustralia, jobsearch, lebmf, lwa,  
>> mdbc, medicareaustralia, mincos, movingintowork, naa, napswq,  
>> nathers, nationalcapital, navy, nht, nla, npi, nrm, nsif, nwc,  
>> oilrecycling, oipc, orer, ozco, peo, pm, privacy, publications,  
>> smos, tenders, tga, travelsmart, treasury, waterrating, wea
>>
>> Third speaker: Karl Hayes, Hitwise Topic 3: Best practice tactics  
>> for government web sites ...
>> ... <file://www.webstandardsgroup.org>www.webstandardsgroup.org ...
>
> ps: Make sure you book and turn up on time. You can't wander in off  
> the street, as the meeting is held in the "bunker theatre" UNDER  
> the Department of Environment <http://www.tomw.net.au/travel/ 
> gallery.shtml#jgb>.
>
>
>
> Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150
> Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd            ABN: 17 088 714 309
> PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617                http://www.tomw.net.au/
> Visiting Fellow, ANU      Blog: http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/atom.xml
> _______________________________________________
> Link mailing list
> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au
> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link

From kauer at biplane.com.au  Tue Jan  9 19:34:27 2007
From: kauer at biplane.com.au (Karl Auer)
Date: Tue Jan  9 19:35:18 2007
Subject: OFFTOPIC: Religion (was Re: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect
	brain activity)
In-Reply-To: <4D9DFC16-F9DC-45DC-B56F-D25E5FF3F88A@gmail.com>
References: <C1C92FAB.628%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<5ii0ro$242hd7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
	<45A32DC3.5090403@praxis.com.au>
	<4D9DFC16-F9DC-45DC-B56F-D25E5FF3F88A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1168331668.29573.130.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2007-01-09 at 09:11 +0100, Kim Holburn wrote:
> Just to be really OT there was an article about Dawkin's book in  
> NewScientist a couple of months back.  He was saying that religion  
> has been responsible for more killings than any other cause.  The  
> writer of the article pointed out that the four or so "regimes" of  
> the twentieth century that have been responsible for the most and the  
> most systemic and state orchestrated killings have all been secular  
> states: Germany under Hitler, Cambodia under Pol Pot, Russia under  
> Stalin and China under Mao.  Perhaps religion has an ameliorating  
> effect on human violence.

Hitler was at least nominally Christian and legendarily antisemitic -
hardly a secular attitude. Not to mention "Gott mit uns!". Stalin and
Mao both targeted religions explicitly and violently. All three
certainly used religious hatred to their own ends. Hitler and Mao
directed religious behaviour towards themselves, with a great deal of
success. Pol Pot I don't know enough about.

The idea that religion has an ameliorating effect on human violence is
absolutely laughable. One glance at the middle east, one second's
consideration of the Inquisition, Yugoslavia, Ireland, the Crusades,
apartheid, Texas or even our very own refugee prisons should dispel any
lingering doubts.

The odd placid Tibetan monk or eccentric English vicar do not make up
for the megalitres of blood spilled in the name of God.

Regards, K.

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/~kauer/                  +61-428-957160 (mob)

From grove at zeta.org.au  Tue Jan  9 21:00:55 2007
From: grove at zeta.org.au (grove@zeta.org.au)
Date: Tue Jan  9 21:01:07 2007
Subject: OFFTOPIC: Religion (was Re: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect
	brain activity)
In-Reply-To: <1168331668.29573.130.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <C1C92FAB.628%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<5ii0ro$242hd7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
	<45A32DC3.5090403@praxis.com.au>
	<4D9DFC16-F9DC-45DC-B56F-D25E5FF3F88A@gmail.com>
	<1168331668.29573.130.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701092057440.1361@zathras.uws.edu.au>

On Tue, 9 Jan 2007, Karl Auer wrote:

>
> Hitler was at least nominally Christian and legendarily antisemitic -

I thought Hitler considered Christianity "impure" because Jesus 
was Jewish in origin?   It also explains the Muslim death squads
he supported in the partisan wars in Croatia and so on.

He definitely took over Christian feasts but there was a lot 
more paganism and spiritism in his ideology than there was Christianity,
but maybe I am misinformed?


rachel

-- 
Rachel Polanskis                 Kingswood, Greater Western Sydney, Australia
grove@zeta.org.au                http://www.zeta.org.au/~grove/grove.html
 	"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security,
 	deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin, 1759
From rick at praxis.com.au  Tue Jan  9 21:22:59 2007
From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Tue Jan  9 21:23:11 2007
Subject: [LINK] Part time job offer - what is the scam?
Message-ID: <45A36D03.7050506@praxis.com.au>

We've all heard of spam emails offer some sort of job scam.
What do Linkers think the scam is here?
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 19:04:38 +0900
From: Esteban Borges <Simone@c2i.net>
To: rick@praxis.com.au
Subject: Part time job offer

Hello,
My name is Esteban Borges and our company has a job offer for you. Our
company is a worldwide reseller of various technologies, and we need a person to
accept online payments from our Australian customers and then forward the cash
to Germany, Russia and Spain via Western Union or MoneyGram. We offer you 5% of
each transfer to your account. The average total of payments is $2000-$4000 AUD,
so you can earn around $100-$250 AUD a day. All operations take not more than 2
hours. Initially for a test period we provide 2-3 payments per week, and then
you can open one or more accounts in other banks and earn $450-$750 AUD per day.
I understand your concerns regarding your personal bank account, although at any
time you can open an account specifically for these transactions. All
negotiations must be via email. All instructions will be sent through
email. If you're interested in this Job please contact our managers through the
contacts below:

e-mail: esteban.borges@hotmail.com

Best Regards,
Esteban Borges.

From stil at stilgherrian.com  Tue Jan  9 21:35:39 2007
From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian)
Date: Tue Jan  9 21:36:08 2007
Subject: [LINK] Part time job offer - what is the scam?
In-Reply-To: <45A36D03.7050506@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <C1C9BB2B.5C8CA%stil@stilgherrian.com>

On 9/1/07 9:22 PM, "Rick Welykochy" <rick@praxis.com.au> wrote:
> We've all heard of spam emails offer some sort of job scam.
> What do Linkers think the scam is here?

Money laundering from other scams, is my guess.

Run a few tens of thousands thru the punters' accounts before you move on.

Scatter these little payments through a network of hundreds or thousands of
these, and hope the pattern doesn't show up on TRAC.

Or this part...
 
> Initially for a test period we provide 2-3 payments per week, and then
> you can open one or more accounts in other banks and earn $450-$750 AUD per
> day.

... could be the trust-builder before a bigger sting to come later.

Stil


-- 
Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/
Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia
mobile +61 407 623 600
fax +61 2 9516 5630
ABN 25 231 641 421





From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au  Tue Jan  9 21:46:38 2007
From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke)
Date: Tue Jan  9 21:47:30 2007
Subject: OFFTOPIC: Religion (was Re: [LINK] electromagnetic fields
	effect 	brain activity)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701092057440.1361@zathras.uws.edu.au>
References: <C1C92FAB.628%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<5ii0ro$242hd7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
	<45A32DC3.5090403@praxis.com.au>
	<4D9DFC16-F9DC-45DC-B56F-D25E5FF3F88A@gmail.com>
	<1168331668.29573.130.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0701092057440.1361@zathras.uws.edu.au>
Message-ID: <p06240834c1c92185e326@[192.168.123.167]>

>On Tue, 9 Jan 2007, Karl Auer wrote:
>>  Hitler was at least nominally Christian and legendarily antisemitic -

Good ol' Google

<Hitler Christianity> begets:
http://nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ca_hitler.html

Nope, I haven't checked the pedigree or reasonableness of any of the above.

Just call me an average web-user - 'it *must* be true'

-- 
Roger Clarke                  http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/

Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd      78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA
                    Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916
mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au                http://www.xamax.com.au/

Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng  Australian National University
Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program      University of Hong Kong
Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre      Uni of NSW
From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Tue Jan  9 22:52:51 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Tue Jan  9 22:57:36 2007
Subject: [LINK] Part time job offer - what is the scam?
In-Reply-To: <45A36D03.7050506@praxis.com.au>
References: <45A36D03.7050506@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$249qpk@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 09:22 PM 9/01/2007, Rick Welykochy wrote:
>We've all heard of spam emails offer some sort of job scam.
>What do Linkers think the scam is here?
>. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

I get these all the time. In fact this scam was the one that sent me 
on the wild goose chase through ACMA, AFP, and a few other acronyms 
to report it as money laundering. No one wanted to know about it. I 
did eventually get someone who responded with the name of this 
particular scam, but they still didn't want to know about it. I gave 
up and just hit the delete key.

Jan


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From link at todd.inoz.com  Tue Jan  9 23:23:51 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Tue Jan  9 23:24:28 2007
Subject: [LINK] Part time job offer - what is the scam?
In-Reply-To: <45A36D03.7050506@praxis.com.au>
References: <45A36D03.7050506@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070109231954.031d6a08@wheresmymailserver.com>


Oh this one is easy!  Money Laundering!

You get deposits into your bank account in small numbers that fall below 
the global $10,000 limit that requires auditing.

No one really cares about $2000 here or there, especially when it's random 
cash deposits, wire transfers or Western Unions.

You withdrawal the money in your currency and then deposit the money into 
another bank account which is then withdrawn by another person similar to 
yourself, and so it goes three or four times till the last person in the 
short chain is the final recpient, generally in a foreign country.

The whole reason for "opening other bank accounts with other banks" is to 
further dilute the thread, get you sucked into loving the fact that $250 a 
day now becomes four bank accounts of $1000 a day and voila!  You are a 
Money Launderer.

Sadly you are not protected by law if you are caught in the thread when it 
is uncovered.

There have been some people in Australia who have built this up to 15 bank 
accounts in various names (Mum, Dad, Child, Cousin etc) moving cash around 
daily for several months, then they get caught and sadly you are guilty of 
an offence, even though you know nothing about it.  Jail sentences have 
been handed down - WITHOUT BAIL prior to hearing.

I need say no more.



At 09:22 PM 9/01/2007, Rick Welykochy wrote:
>We've all heard of spam emails offer some sort of job scam.
>What do Linkers think the scam is here?
>. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>
>Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 19:04:38 +0900
>From: Esteban Borges <Simone@c2i.net>
>To: rick@praxis.com.au
>Subject: Part time job offer
>
>Hello,
>My name is Esteban Borges and our company has a job offer for you. Our
>company is a worldwide reseller of various technologies, and we need a 
>person to
>accept online payments from our Australian customers and then forward the cash
>to Germany, Russia and Spain via Western Union or MoneyGram. We offer you 
>5% of
>each transfer to your account. The average total of payments is 
>$2000-$4000 AUD,
>so you can earn around $100-$250 AUD a day. All operations take not more 
>than 2
>hours. Initially for a test period we provide 2-3 payments per week, and then
>you can open one or more accounts in other banks and earn $450-$750 AUD 
>per day.
>I understand your concerns regarding your personal bank account, although 
>at any
>time you can open an account specifically for these transactions. All
>negotiations must be via email. All instructions will be sent through
>email. If you're interested in this Job please contact our managers 
>through the
>contacts below:
>
>e-mail: esteban.borges@hotmail.com
>
>Best Regards,
>Esteban Borges.
>
>_______________________________________________
>Link mailing list
>Link@mailman.anu.edu.au
>http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link

From stephen at melbpc.org.au  Wed Jan 10 00:53:38 2007
From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley)
Date: Wed Jan 10 00:54:39 2007
Subject: [LINK] www.curriki.org
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070110003800.01bc1540@melbpc.org.au>

'Curriki.org is an online environment created to support the development and free distribution of world-class educational materials to anyone who needs them. Please join us.

Our name is a play on the combination of 'curriculum' and 'wiki' which is the technology we're using to make education universally accessible. 

Curriki is a free community of educators, learners and committed education experts who are working together to create quality materials that will benefit teachers and students around the world.  Curriki is the result of an online project started by Sun Microsystems to develop works for education in a collaborative effort.'

News: December 14, 2006  "Curriki.org made its debut January 2006, and has been growing fast. Some 450 courses are in the works, and about 3,000 people have joined as members. McNealy reports that a teenager in Kuwait has already completed the introductory physics and calculus classes in 18 days."
--

Cheers, people
Stephen Loosley
Victoria, Australia


-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.7/619 - Release Date: 7/01/2007 6:29 PM


From cas at taz.net.au  Wed Jan 10 08:47:27 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Wed Jan 10 08:47:27 2007
Subject: [LINK] Will governments grasp the nettle on spam
In-Reply-To: <45A3EFEE.7090300@lannet.com.au>
References: <45A3EFEE.7090300@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070109214727.GO26390@taz.net.au>

On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 06:41:34AM +1100, Howard Lowndes wrote:
> <hfl>
> I commented the other day about governments having to get more involved 
> in fighting spam.  It looks like I am not the only one with that thought.
> </hfl>

i don't have any objection to better anti-spam laws, but i also don't
think they'll do much (if any) good - although it was nice to see the
perth spammers get some of what they deserve last year.

spammers are breaking many existing laws - some of them with far higher
penalties than any anti-spam penalties.

most of the things advertised by spam are already illegal (e.g. pump and
dump stock scams, nigerian "419" scams), or advertised/sold in a way
prohibited by regulations (e.g. pill spams). if the governments of the
world wanted to go after spammers, they've already got the laws to do
so.

porn spam could be targetted on the basis that it's impossible for
spammers to restrict their spam to adults (18+ or 21+ depending on
jurisdiction) so they are distributing pornography to children.

and the bulk of spam comes via spamware viruses which are in themselves
illegal.

about the only common spam that isn't for an illegal product or service
are mortgage spams, and they're fairly easy to block.



so yeah, good anti-spam laws would be an OK thing....but laws are never
going to replace the need for good anti-spam filters.

> http://theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=36823
> 
> [...]
> CTO of SoftScan Diego d'Ambra said in a press release that "if spam 
> distribution levels continue to rise at the rate we have seen over the 
> last few months, then I believe that by the end of 2007 governments 
> worldwide will be obliged to enforce international anti-spam laws."

why?  spam is already causing massive problems to the email infrastructure
around the world, and governments are doing little or nothing.  why should
they suddenly decide to do something?  wishful thinking.

craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From cas at taz.net.au  Wed Jan 10 08:52:53 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Wed Jan 10 08:52:52 2007
Subject: [LINK] Part time job offer - what is the scam?
In-Reply-To: <45A36D03.7050506@praxis.com.au>
References: <45A36D03.7050506@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070109215253.GP26390@taz.net.au>

On Tue, Jan 09, 2007 at 09:22:59PM +1100, Rick Welykochy wrote:
> We've all heard of spam emails offer some sort of job scam.
> What do Linkers think the scam is here?
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

money laundering from phishing attacks.

they gather bank/paypal/etc login details with their phishes and need an
account to transfer the money to. so they find some sucker to accept the
money into their account, keep a percentage, and forward it on to them,
either through a chain of other suckers' accounts or via an anonymous
wire transfer type service.

the sucker will inevitably get caught (because the transaction trail
leads directly to their account), probably within days or weeks of the
first transaction. most of them probably have some idea of the true
nature of the "job", but some of them are just gullible.


craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From brd at iimetro.com.au  Wed Jan 10 09:02:32 2007
From: brd at iimetro.com.au (brd@iimetro.com.au)
Date: Wed Jan 10 09:02:42 2007
Subject: [LINK] For Windows Vista Security, Microsoft Called in Pros
Message-ID: <20070110070232.y0ogc5bb8zggs08k@webmail.iimetro.com.au>

<brd>
There must be a suspicion that the co-operation could have been a two way
street.

With DRM and security issues being raised, and large companies questioning the
value of upgrading to Vista, what's the future for this software?

I guess it depends if there is a compeling case to install Vista so that some
other feature can be enabled. eg new versions of other software, new hardware
that only works with Vista. And then there is the biggie - no support for older
versions of Windows.

</brd>

For Windows Vista Security, Microsoft Called in Pros
By Alec Klein and Ellen Nakashima
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, January 9, 2007
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/08/AR2007010801352.html

When Microsoft introduces its long-awaited Windows Vista operating system this
month, it will have an unlikely partner to thank for making its flagship
product safe and secure for millions of computer users across the world: the
National Security Agency.

For the first time, the giant software maker is acknowledging the help of the
secretive agency, better known for eavesdropping on foreign officials and, more
recently, U.S. citizens as part of the Bush administration's effort to combat
terrorism. The agency said it has helped in the development of the security of
Microsoft's new operating system -- the brains of a computer -- to protect it
from worms, Trojan horses and other insidious computer attackers.



----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using iiMetro WebMail 
From rw at firstpr.com.au  Wed Jan 10 09:03:06 2007
From: rw at firstpr.com.au (Robin Whittle)
Date: Wed Jan 10 09:03:46 2007
Subject: [LINK] Spam again
In-Reply-To: <45A3EAAC.1070701@lannet.com.au>
References: <45A3EAAC.1070701@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <45A4111A.50305@firstpr.com.au>

It is probably unrelated, but since yesterday afternoon I got about
15,000 "backscatter" emails - probably 200 Megabytes - from a
Netspace.net.au mail server and one in France, dutifully reporting that
a message I supposedly sent was addressed to a non-existent account.  It
was a NAB phishing email.  Some other backscatter messages contained the
whole thing, and it was sent from a user's machine in France.

I also got a few unpleasant emails from disgruntled recipients.

It would probably be possible to block the main two sources of
backscatter with Postfix header checks, but instead a set up a filter in
my Maildrop mailfilter file, and dumped the lot in a mailbox.

 - Robin

From cas at taz.net.au  Wed Jan 10 09:08:55 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Wed Jan 10 09:08:52 2007
Subject: OFFTOPIC: Religion (was Re: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect
	brain activity)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701092057440.1361@zathras.uws.edu.au>
References: <C1C92FAB.628%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<5ii0ro$242hd7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
	<45A32DC3.5090403@praxis.com.au>
	<4D9DFC16-F9DC-45DC-B56F-D25E5FF3F88A@gmail.com>
	<1168331668.29573.130.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0701092057440.1361@zathras.uws.edu.au>
Message-ID: <20070109220855.GQ26390@taz.net.au>

On Tue, Jan 09, 2007 at 09:00:55PM +1100, grove@zeta.org.au wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jan 2007, Karl Auer wrote:
> 
> >Hitler was at least nominally Christian and legendarily antisemitic -
> 
> I thought Hitler considered Christianity "impure" because Jesus 
> was Jewish in origin?   

and where did his anti-semitism come from? christian anti-semitism
has a long history in europe, especially in germany.  Jews have been
(and still are) accused of all the usual crimes (baby killers/eaters,
witchcraft, theft, etc) that transient or ethnic minority groups (incl.
heretics, gypsies, and others) are always accused of plus the extra
crime that they as an entire race/culture were the killers of Christ.

the fact that Jesus himself was a Jew (and that his teachings were ONLY
for other Jews - it was Paul, not Jesus, who spread it to gentiles)
is usually glossed over and ignored by christian anti-semites...an
unfortunate and inconvenient truth


> He definitely took over Christian feasts but there was a lot more
> paganism and spiritism in his ideology than there was Christianity,
> but maybe I am misinformed?

christians, and especially catholics, have been trying to disown hitler
and distance themselves from him since the 40s. he's an embarassment, so
they like to blame him on atheists or pagans.

he was definitely a christian, and a catholic.

craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From Fred.Pilcher at act.gov.au  Wed Jan 10 09:33:04 2007
From: Fred.Pilcher at act.gov.au (Pilcher, Fred)
Date: Wed Jan 10 09:33:12 2007
Subject: [LINK] Will governments grasp the nettle on spam
In-Reply-To: <20070109214727.GO26390@taz.net.au>
Message-ID: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72062B7FC1@cal066.act.gov.au>

What's always puzzled me is that all these spams lead back, ultimately, to someone selling something. Where law enforcement agencies bother to act at all, they tend to go after the monkey, not the organ grinder. Surely it would be comparitively trivial to track down and prosecute the people selling the products  - the people who are paying the spammer to spam? Sticking a few of them behind bars would seem to be potentially easier and more effective than chasing the spammers, an activity that's been demonstrably ineffective.

Fred 
  
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From cas at taz.net.au  Wed Jan 10 09:45:05 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Wed Jan 10 09:45:04 2007
Subject: [LINK] Will governments grasp the nettle on spam
In-Reply-To: <45A415E6.5040605@lannet.com.au>
References: <45A3EFEE.7090300@lannet.com.au>
	<20070109214727.GO26390@taz.net.au>
	<45A415E6.5040605@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070109224505.GR26390@taz.net.au>

On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 09:23:34AM +1100, Howard Lowndes wrote:
> Craig Sanders wrote:
> >On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 06:41:34AM +1100, Howard Lowndes wrote:
> >>http://theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=36823
> >>
> >>[...]
> >>CTO of SoftScan Diego d'Ambra said in a press release that "if spam 
> >>distribution levels continue to rise at the rate we have seen over the 
> >>last few months, then I believe that by the end of 2007 governments 
> >>worldwide will be obliged to enforce international anti-spam laws."
> >
> >why?  spam is already causing massive problems to the email infrastructure
> >around the world, and governments are doing little or nothing.  why should
> >they suddenly decide to do something?  wishful thinking.
> 
> Because soon they are going to wake up to the fact that it is also 
> inconveniencing them and not just the unwashed masses.

but it doesn't inconvenience them. it incoveniences their
staffers....and they must have been ignoring their complaints about the
spam they have to wade through for years.

also, governments are pretty much all infected by the meme that ANY
economic activity is good economic activity, and spam results in
economic activity. while they can't actively support it, they can and
will ignore it.

craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From marghanita at ramin.com.au  Wed Jan 10 09:28:32 2007
From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz)
Date: Wed Jan 10 09:51:35 2007
Subject: [LINK] For Windows Vista Security, Microsoft Called in Pros
In-Reply-To: <20070110070232.y0ogc5bb8zggs08k@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
References: <20070110070232.y0ogc5bb8zggs08k@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
Message-ID: <45A41710.80703@ramin.com.au>

brd@iimetro.com.au wrote:
> <brd>
> There must be a suspicion that the co-operation could have been a two way
> street.
> 
> With DRM and security issues being raised, and large companies questioning the
> value of upgrading to Vista, what's the future for this software?
> 
> I guess it depends if there is a compeling case to install Vista so that some
> other feature can be enabled. eg new versions of other software, new hardware
> that only works with Vista. And then there is the biggie - no support for older
> versions of Windows.
> 
> </brd>
Is it the licensing cost or the reliability cost that has people balking 
at a Windows desktop?
Does anyone know the state of play with web servers?

for my part, I switched to Linux, because I couldn't be bothered dealing 
with viruses.
and have always insisted on Apache. The free software is a bonus and 
open source is reassuring.

Also, can anyone pinpoint why I can't view this page (in Mozilla 1.4 - 
ok, I said I was planning to upgrade...but haven't quite got there yet)
<http://www.dcita.gov.au/communications_and_technology/consultation_and_submissions/review_of_the_structure_and_operation_of_the_.au_internet_domain>

I accessed the info including the PDF report by viewing the source :-(
<http://www.dcita.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/51305/au_Review_Discussion_Paper.pdf 
 >
  It makes interesting reading given our discussion about the domain 
name stuff in December,

m
> 
> For Windows Vista Security, Microsoft Called in Pro
> By Alec Klein and Ellen Nakashima
> Washington Post Staff Writers
> Tuesday, January 9, 2007
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/08/AR2007010801352.html
<snip>
-- 
Marghanita da Cruz
http://www.ramin.com.au/
Telephone: 0414-869202
Ramin Communications Pty Ltd
ABN: 027-089-713-084



From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au  Wed Jan 10 09:52:18 2007
From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry)
Date: Wed Jan 10 09:52:29 2007
Subject: [LINK] For Windows Vista Security, Microsoft Called in Pros
In-Reply-To: <20070110070232.y0ogc5bb8zggs08k@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
References: <20070110070232.y0ogc5bb8zggs08k@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
Message-ID: <673EF28F-A9BD-45E9-9A51-66D1585E183D@tony-barry.emu.id.au>


On 10/01/2007, at 9:02 AM, brd@iimetro.com.au wrote:

> The agency said it has helped in the development of the security of
> Microsoft's new operating system -- the brains of a computer -- to  
> protect it
> from worms, Trojan horses and other insidious computer attackers.

Why does this make me feel that there is more to it than that? NSA  
reviews the code of Vista in conjunction with Microsoft and can  
anybody sense a backdoor?

Tony

phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au
http://tony-barry.emu.id.au


From rick at praxis.com.au  Wed Jan 10 09:54:28 2007
From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Wed Jan 10 09:55:05 2007
Subject: [LINK] Will governments grasp the nettle on spam
In-Reply-To: <45A3EFEE.7090300@lannet.com.au>
References: <45A3EFEE.7090300@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <45A41D24.2040007@praxis.com.au>

Howard Lowndes wrote:

> SoftScan also announced the top five virus families for December, 
> phishing being top dog at 69%, followed by tibs at 12.89% netsky at 
> 4.00% stration at 3.05% and bagle at 2.56%.

Phishing is not a virus and should not be allowed into that family.

WTH are tibs, netsky, stration and bagle?


-rw



-- 
_________________________________
Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services

Does Bush check the Rapture Index daily, as Reagan did his stars?
We don't know, but would anyone be surprised?
      -- Richard Dawkins
From brd at iimetro.com.au  Wed Jan 10 10:00:11 2007
From: brd at iimetro.com.au (brd@iimetro.com.au)
Date: Wed Jan 10 10:00:22 2007
Subject: [LINK] Vista Casts A Pall On PC Gaming
Message-ID: <20070110080011.s9dunpi4v0g00g8k@webmail.iimetro.com.au>

<brd>
One of the features/problems with Windows is that it has set out to be all
things to everyone.

The new security and DRM features of Vista are starting to reduce the ubiquitous
nature of an OS that is actually not an OS, but a mishmash of OS and
applications.

Vista could well be the tipping point for the OS world causing fragmentation.

If the interfaces and general behaviours of future OS and apps stay similar to
that of Windows, then the only true benefit of Windows might be maintained.

IMHO Linux is an OS, Windows can never be. Windows was a marketing tool which
has reached its natural end of life.

</brd>


Opinion: 'Vista Casts A Pall On PC Gaming'
January 9, 2007
Gamasutra
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=12314

Will new features in Windows Vista have a chilling effect on indie PC game
development? In this exclusive Gamasutra opinion piece, WildTangent founder and
CEO Alex St. John highlights obstructive security controls embedded in Vista
that threaten to do just that.

....

-- 
Regards
brd

Bernard Robertson-Dunn
Sydney Australia
brd@iimetro.com.au

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using iiMetro WebMail 
From cas at taz.net.au  Wed Jan 10 10:04:30 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Wed Jan 10 10:04:28 2007
Subject: [LINK] Will governments grasp the nettle on spam
In-Reply-To: <45A41C5B.3080205@lannet.com.au>
References: <45A3EFEE.7090300@lannet.com.au>
	<20070109214727.GO26390@taz.net.au>
	<45A415E6.5040605@lannet.com.au>
	<20070109224505.GR26390@taz.net.au>
	<45A41C5B.3080205@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070109230430.GS26390@taz.net.au>

On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 09:51:07AM +1100, Howard Lowndes wrote:
> Craig Sanders wrote:
> > also, governments are pretty much all infected by the meme that ANY
> > economic activity is good economic activity, and spam results in
> > economic activity. while they can't actively support it, they can and
> > will ignore it.
> 
> Do you mean that it's good for the economy for me to go around knocking 
> old ladies on the head and pinching their bank books then cleaning out 
> the accounts and spending up big time...

yep.  you'd be doing a service to the nation.

pretty small scale, though. you'd get a lot more appreciation if you
plundered the few remaining forests and/or spewed out megatons of
greenhouse gases.

craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From marghanita at ramin.com.au  Wed Jan 10 10:29:43 2007
From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz)
Date: Wed Jan 10 10:30:06 2007
Subject: [LINK] Vista Casts A Pall On PC Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20070110080011.s9dunpi4v0g00g8k@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
References: <20070110080011.s9dunpi4v0g00g8k@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
Message-ID: <45A42567.4020602@ramin.com.au>

brd@iimetro.com.au wrote:
<snip>
> IMHO Linux is an OS, Windows can never be. Windows was a marketing tool which
> has reached its natural end of life.
<snip>
BRD,

IMHO your conclusion is correct but not your assessment of Windows.  We 
should acknowledge the contribution of MSDOS, MSWindows/Office and the 
IBM PC in the history books - I was there too.

Marghanita
-- 
Marghanita da Cruz
http://www.ramin.com.au/
Telephone: 0414-869202
Ramin Communications Pty Ltd
ABN: 027-089-713-084



From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Wed Jan 10 10:33:42 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Wed Jan 10 10:38:18 2007
Subject: [LINK] For Windows Vista Security, Microsoft Called in Pros
In-Reply-To: <20070110070232.y0ogc5bb8zggs08k@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
References: <20070110070232.y0ogc5bb8zggs08k@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$24g2fs@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 09:02 AM 10/01/2007, brd@iimetro.com.au wrote:
>When Microsoft introduces its long-awaited Windows Vista operating system this
>month, it will have an unlikely partner to thank for making its flagship
>product safe and secure for millions of computer users across the world: the
>National Security Agency.

I'm not sure I feel better about this at all! Backdoors anyone? Given 
the Diebold fiasco in the US, I don't think I want to trust anything 
that has had the current US govt involved. I know, I know, it's 
already doing it in all other kinds of ways that aren't acknowledged, 
but it doesn't make it any better to be told about it!

Jan


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Wed Jan 10 10:52:00 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Wed Jan 10 10:54:21 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
Message-ID: <C1CA75D0.63C%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>

Karl writes re placebo:

> if they believe it will help them then it very likely WILL help them, even if
> only by improving their perceived well-being.

I dont' disagree at all.  But I think one of the most common misconceptions
about the use of a placebo (and the patient is not supposed to know that it
is only a placebo)  is that the patient's feeling of well-being actually
contributes to the healing process.

This is dubious in my opinion; it might effect/affect (Ivan??) the mood, but
I doubt it affects/effects the body.

The body heals by itself, with or without placebos -- and with or without
feelings of well-being. It even heals in a coma.

 There's no evidence that the bones of a depressive take longer to mend than
the bones of an eternal optimist.  If there were, hospitals would load their
patients up with a good high dose of morphine or opium to enlist euphoria
and hasten the healing process.

An extension of this "feeling of well-being" idea is the firmly-held-belief
in the general community that the bravery of certain people helps them cure
themselves of supposedly incurable diseases.  TV Current-affairs shows love
to use the term 'hero' about kids who survive cancer and they almost always
attribute the survival to the mental state of the kid.

This is never discussed truthfully in the media, because its not a
characterisation that anyone can vocally object to without looking like a
complete bastard.

However consider its corollary, which presumably is that those who die, do
so because of cowardice or lack-of-willpower in facing and fighting their
disease.   I often wonder how the families of those who die think about this
implied characterisation of their loved ones.


Karl's condemnation of people who "exploit the credulous" however, seems to
under-rate this as a problem.  It is a multi-billion dollar problem in
Australia, and a multi-trillion dollar problem around the world.


-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458





From brd at iimetro.com.au  Wed Jan 10 10:57:46 2007
From: brd at iimetro.com.au (brd@iimetro.com.au)
Date: Wed Jan 10 10:57:56 2007
Subject: [LINK] Vista Casts A Pall On PC Gaming
In-Reply-To: <45A42567.4020602@ramin.com.au>
References: <20070110080011.s9dunpi4v0g00g8k@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
	<45A42567.4020602@ramin.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070110085746.20s3fab0orw44ckk@webmail.iimetro.com.au>

Quoting Marghanita da Cruz <marghanita@ramin.com.au>:

> brd@iimetro.com.au wrote:
> <snip>
>> IMHO Linux is an OS, Windows can never be. Windows was a marketing 
>> tool which
>> has reached its natural end of life.
> <snip>
> BRD,
>
> IMHO your conclusion is correct but not your assessment of Windows.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Are you suggesting that
Windows is an OS?

> We should acknowledge the contribution of MSDOS, MSWindows/Office and 
> the IBM PC in the history books - I was there too.

MSDOS was never an operating system it was a program loader. Microsoft 
has never
developed or even bought/stolen/adapted an Operating System in its 
life. It has
always developed and marketed software with the express intention of
eliminating its opposition.

There are so many aspects of MS software that is just really bad Computer
Science it is amazing that it has been so successful. The fact that Mr 
Gates is
seen as a "computer whiz" rather than a very astute business man 
speakes volumes
about other business people, politicians and the media.

-- 
Regards
brd

Bernard Robertson-Dunn
Sydney Australia
brd@iimetro.com.au

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using iiMetro WebMail
From marghanita at ramin.com.au  Wed Jan 10 10:59:14 2007
From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz)
Date: Wed Jan 10 10:59:47 2007
Subject: [LINK] Vista Casts A Pall On PC Gaming
In-Reply-To: <45A429CA.3090204@lannet.com.au>
References: <20070110080011.s9dunpi4v0g00g8k@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
	<45A42567.4020602@ramin.com.au> <45A429CA.3090204@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <45A42C52.3050005@ramin.com.au>

Howard Lowndes wrote:
> 
> 
> Marghanita da Cruz wrote:
> 
>> brd@iimetro.com.au wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>> IMHO Linux is an OS, Windows can never be. Windows was a marketing 
>>> tool which
>>> has reached its natural end of life.
>>
>> <snip>
>> BRD,
>>
>> IMHO your conclusion is correct but not your assessment of Windows.  
>> We should acknowledge the contribution
> 
> 
> "contribution" - do you mean as in viruses, spam, etc...?

viruses/spam came much later....I was referring to the contribution to 
"end user" computing - usability/word processing/spreadsheets in 
particular.

Personally, I preferred a line editor and lotus 123. Not to mention 
those who still believe CPM was a better operating system. We could have 
a debate about Unix and proprietary operating systems also.

Unix has been around for a long time, I think the aspect of Linux we 
need to understand is open source and the Web/Internet is open 
standards/interoperability.


-- 
Marghanita da Cruz
http://www.ramin.com.au/
Telephone: 0414-869202
Ramin Communications Pty Ltd
ABN: 027-089-713-084



From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Wed Jan 10 11:08:24 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Wed Jan 10 11:10:48 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <200701091356.l09DuXiw016285@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <C1CA79A8.63D%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>

Re Off Topic

Why is Hitler's Germany being included in these lists as a "secular state".

To my knowledge, most of those in the top Nazi hierarchy were Christians,
and Hitler certainly was an Austrian Catholic.  He was no more 'lapsed' than
was Churchill or Roosevelt.

Moreover Stalin was the product of many years in a seminary.

And why does the Jesuit dictum of "Give me a child until he is 7, and I'll
show you the man" not extend to Hitler and Stalin?

And why do we only select the 20th Century?

Could I suggest that for 1900 years before that, most of the massacres were
caused by Christians, Muslims, Mongols (who were often Buddhist/Nestorian
Christians or Muslims)

... and before that (as recorded in the Old Testament) they were Jewish, or
Roman Pagan, etc. etc.

I think you'll generally find that massacres are roughly proportional to
religiousity -- and I include political-religiousity in my definition, just
to make my conclusions completely indisputable.




-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458

From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Wed Jan 10 11:08:07 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Wed Jan 10 11:11:39 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <C1CA75D0.63C%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <C1CA75D0.63C%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$24ggml@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 10:52 AM 10/01/2007, Stewart Fist wrote:
>This is dubious in my opinion; it might effect/affect (Ivan??) the mood, but
>I doubt it affects/effects the body.
>
>The body heals by itself, with or without placebos -- and with or without
>feelings of well-being. It even heals in a coma.

(to affect - verb; effect - noun)

moving right along: good points, Stewart, but is there any conclusive 
research either way? Is this possibly one of those threshold issues 
that we were discussing about re radiation levels? There are studies 
about the effects (note: noun :-) ) of endorphins to increase healing 
( or did I make that up? can't recall).

The body can heal itself if it's not deteriorated too much (think 
pneumonia) or if it has the defense mechanisms still in place (think 
Immune Deficiency syndromes). Nothing much is going to heal the body 
unless there are external manipulations. Even broken bones will heal, 
but may heal wrongly if not seen to. Of course mental state won't do 
much unless it's the intent to seek out someone to do the 
healing/fixing. Logically, I would think people with depression may 
not have the right mind set. And those who are keen on life will.

There was a discussion this morning on ABC about PTSD and how those 
who have it (coming back from Afghanistan/Iraq) are having to fight 
the DVA all over again for compensation, even though they have been 
diagnosed by two separate independent hospitals, one a repatriation 
hospital in Perth. These guys are in no state to fight the 
bureaucrats. Bilson tried to squirm out of it, but didn't convince me.

Now I am spinning out a bit far....

bye
Jan


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From rick at praxis.com.au  Wed Jan 10 11:31:07 2007
From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Wed Jan 10 11:31:19 2007
Subject: [LINK] For Windows Vista Security, Microsoft Called in Pros
In-Reply-To: <45A41710.80703@ramin.com.au>
References: <20070110070232.y0ogc5bb8zggs08k@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
	<45A41710.80703@ramin.com.au>
Message-ID: <45A433CB.4000300@praxis.com.au>

Marghanita da Cruz wrote:

> Also, can anyone pinpoint why I can't view this page (in Mozilla 1.4 - 
> ok, I said I was planning to upgrade...but haven't quite got there yet)
> <http://www.dcita.gov.au/communications_and_technology/consultation_and_submissions/review_of_the_structure_and_operation_of_the_.au_internet_domain> 

Very hard to say why without having that version of the browser.
The page displays fine in Mozilla 1.7.13 on a Mac OS X system.

cheers
rickw



-- 
_________________________________
Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services

Does Bush check the Rapture Index daily, as Reagan did his stars?
We don't know, but would anyone be surprised?
      -- Richard Dawkins
From eleanor at pacific.net.au  Wed Jan 10 11:32:16 2007
From: eleanor at pacific.net.au (Eleanor Lister)
Date: Wed Jan 10 11:32:27 2007
Subject: [LINK] Will governments grasp the nettle on spam
In-Reply-To: <45A3EFEE.7090300@lannet.com.au>
References: <45A3EFEE.7090300@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <45A43410.7060806@pacific.net.au>

Howard Lowndes wrote:
> <hfl>
> I commented the other day about governments having to get more
> involved in fighting spam.  It looks like I am not the only one with
> that thought.
> </hfl>
>
> http://theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=36823
>
> [...]
> As just about every security company will be saying, more effort will
> be needed to tackle the spam problem this year if the rising spam
> trend continues. For example, the lowest spam level in December - a
> big month for spam - was massively high at 84.95%.
>
> CTO of SoftScan Diego d'Ambra said in a press release that "if spam
> distribution levels continue to rise at the rate we have seen over the
> last few months, then I believe that by the end of 2007 governments
> worldwide will be obliged to enforce international anti-spam laws."
>
> SoftScan also announced the top five virus families for December,
> phishing being top dog at 69%, followed by tibs at 12.89% netsky at
> 4.00% stration at 3.05% and bagle at 2.56%.
>

i believe that spam is very welcome to the corporate software providers,
as it will generate the following scenario:

- spam becomes so prevalent that email becomes hard to use

- a new email protocol is devised, not because it is more secure, but
because it requires that the source is registered in a corporate
database or be considered malformed by the email handler and discarded

- this gives the corporates a revenue stream registering email sources,
and a further per-message charge per customer

- the days of free and open communications are over, the mechanisms of
social control are firmly in place, and making money

- John & Jane don't care if they pay $10 a month for email, they see it
like paying postage for letters

- many obvious spammers go to jail, except for ones based in countries
that don't care, or are using relays

- a new version of the protocol with digital signatures is put up, which
costs even more for the poor bloody customer

- the new spammers are the corporates, who flood us with targeted spam,
just as bad as before, only the poor bloody customer is paying an arm or
a leg to be spammed

- it isn't called spam anymore, that's evil interference with your
rights; this is multi-level marketing, from reputable firms!

hoo-bloody-ray.

(feeling savage today, just cleaned out my in-box)

grrrrrrrrrr,
    EL

------------
Eleanor Ashley Lister
South Sydney Greens
http://ssg.nsw.greens.org.au
webmistress@ssg.nsw.greens.org.au

From rick at praxis.com.au  Wed Jan 10 11:40:06 2007
From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Wed Jan 10 11:40:17 2007
Subject: [LINK] Vista Casts A Pall On PC Gaming
In-Reply-To: <45A429CA.3090204@lannet.com.au>
References: <20070110080011.s9dunpi4v0g00g8k@webmail.iimetro.com.au>	<45A42567.4020602@ramin.com.au>
	<45A429CA.3090204@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <45A435E6.7000204@praxis.com.au>

Howard Lowndes wrote:

> Marghanita da Cruz wrote:
>
>> IMHO your conclusion is correct but not your assessment of Windows.  
>> We should acknowledge the contribution
> 
> 
> "contribution" - do you mean as in viruses, spam, etc...?

Howard is right. Microsoft has contributed zero in the advancement of
computing science and IT innovation. They have actually set the bar and
expectations of how computers should perform so low that their software can
be considered "toy". If you do the research you will find that practically
anything of usefullness that Microsoft sells has been either ripped off
(Lotus 1-2-3 ==> Excel), adapted (GUI as but one example) or assimilated
Borg-style (Mosaic ==> IE).

Need some concrete examples of their failure to innovate? Microsoft was
on the web way later than many other technology companies, around 1996 IIRC.
Their TCP/IP stack had to be imported from BSD. Their IIS web server came
arrived way after Apache. Their browser came in years after Netscape had
established firm market position. IE introduced "tabbed browsing" just a few
months ago, years after Mozilla and Safari.

The only thing Microsoft has really contributed to is the reinforcement
of the notion that combines and anti-trust legislation is a toothless
tiger and the real message in our capitalist system is to rape, pillage
and plunder as many markets and competitors to "win the game". And don't even
get me started on the Dr-DOS fiasco.

Cynic, moi?


cheers
rickw


-- 
_________________________________
Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services

Does Bush check the Rapture Index daily, as Reagan did his stars?
We don't know, but would anyone be surprised?
      -- Richard Dawkins


From marghanita at ramin.com.au  Wed Jan 10 11:38:51 2007
From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz)
Date: Wed Jan 10 11:41:38 2007
Subject: [LINK] Vista Casts A Pall On PC Gaming
In-Reply-To: <20070110085746.20s3fab0orw44ckk@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
References: <20070110080011.s9dunpi4v0g00g8k@webmail.iimetro.com.au>	<45A42567.4020602@ramin.com.au>
	<20070110085746.20s3fab0orw44ckk@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
Message-ID: <45A4359B.2020601@ramin.com.au>

brd@iimetro.com.au wrote:
> Quoting Marghanita da Cruz <marghanita@ramin.com.au>:
> 
>> brd@iimetro.com.au wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>> IMHO Linux is an OS, Windows can never be. Windows was a marketing 
>>> tool which
>>> has reached its natural end of life.
>>
>> <snip>
>> BRD,
>>
>> IMHO your conclusion is correct but not your assessment of Windows.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Are you suggesting that
> Windows is an OS?
> 
>> We should acknowledge the contribution of MSDOS, MSWindows/Office and 
>> the IBM PC in the history books - I was there too.
> 
> 
> MSDOS was never an operating system it was a program loader. Microsoft 
> has never
> developed or even bought/stolen/adapted an Operating System in its life. 
> It has
> always developed and marketed software with the express intention of
> eliminating its opposition.
> 
> There are so many aspects of MS software that is just really bad Computer
> Science it is amazing that it has been so successful. The fact that Mr 
> Gates is
> seen as a "computer whiz" rather than a very astute business man speakes 
> volumes
> about other business people, politicians and the media.
> 
Bernard,

It is not the quality of the operating system that I am disputing
either. I started work, bright eyed and bushy tailed after studying
computer science - where we used a Unix machine which taught you to save
edits regularly in case it crashed.

My first job, in 1982 entailed decommissioning the card reader and
replacing it with a PC for data entry. (Northstar running CPM). It also
entailed maintaining an econometric model of the economy written in
Fortran (and legend would have it backed up on cards under the bed of
the Econometrician) on a Bureau Cyber - where you had to do explicit
memory management.

We could also discuss the merits of Pascal vs
Fortran...something else I learnt in Computer Science. And they let me 
attempt to implement the econometric model in Pascal on the 
PC...needless to say, I didn't get very far. Next Job, moved a Fortran 
Royalties program from a Cyber to a Prime Mini computer running Primos. 
Kept compiling and getting different results, brought in a consultant 
who pointed out a bug in the Fortran compiler....

In 1988, I encountered the Digital Rainbow - quid each way ran MSDOS and
CPM Used a Vax/VMS to enable PC and MAC users to share files...

BTW, also listened to the debate about the quality of sound on vinyl vs
CDs and Analog vs Digital Audio.

Not sure, why I suddently recall my  grandmother's advice, you can take
a horse to water, but you can't make it drink!

Marghanita
-- 
Marghanita da Cruz
http://www.ramin.com.au/
Telephone: 0414-869202
Ramin Communications Pty Ltd
ABN: 027-089-713-084




From marghanita at ramin.com.au  Wed Jan 10 11:34:12 2007
From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz)
Date: Wed Jan 10 11:42:02 2007
Subject: [LINK] Vista Casts A Pall On PC Gaming
In-Reply-To: <45A42EBE.1070201@lannet.com.au>
References: <20070110080011.s9dunpi4v0g00g8k@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
	<45A42567.4020602@ramin.com.au> <45A429CA.3090204@lannet.com.au>
	<45A42C52.3050005@ramin.com.au> <45A42EBE.1070201@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <45A43484.7000006@ramin.com.au>

Howard Lowndes wrote:
> 
> 
> Marghanita da Cruz wrote:
> 
>> Howard Lowndes wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Marghanita da Cruz wrote:
<snip>
>>> "contribution" - do you mean as in viruses, spam, etc...?
>>
>>
>> viruses/spam came much later
> 
> 
> not very much later.  IIRC, the stoned virus was about 1984.
> 
> ....I was referring to the contribution to
> 
>> "end user" computing - usability/word processing/spreadsheets in 
>> particular.
> 
> 
> think visicalc and wordstar - well before M$ came on the scene.

vaguely recall wordstar and visicalc....but was involved in heated 
debates about the benefits of WordPerfect and amipro.

However, as an integrated easy to use, and probably price wise, package 
MSWin/Office won the day. The other aspect was networking, integrating 
PCs/Macs/Vax pre-web was a challenge.  TCP/IP and the Internet were 
floating around too - remember the debate between Ethernet and TOKEN RING?

Not to mention x.400...

Oh the good old days! These young people today, don't know how good they 
have it.

> 
>>
>> Personally, I preferred a line editor and lotus 123. Not to mention 
>> those who still believe CPM was a better operating system. We could 
>> have a debate about Unix and proprietary operating systems also.
>>
>> Unix has been around for a long time, I think the aspect of Linux we 
>> need to understand is open source and the Web/Internet is open 
>> standards/interoperability.
> 
> 
> Yes, Richie and Thompson were working on Unix at around the same time 
> that Dick Pick was working on his OS - late '60s/early '70s
> 
>>
>>
> 


-- 
Marghanita da Cruz
http://www.ramin.com.au/
Telephone: 0414-869202
Ramin Communications Pty Ltd
ABN: 027-089-713-084



From ivan at itrundle.com  Wed Jan 10 12:21:32 2007
From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle)
Date: Wed Jan 10 12:21:44 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <C1CA75D0.63C%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <C1CA75D0.63C%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <2A407F10-4A49-4B41-8529-4DC31B867FC1@itrundle.com>


On 10/01/2007, at 10:52 AM, Stewart Fist wrote:

> Karl writes re placebo:
>
>> if they believe it will help them then it very likely WILL help  
>> them, even if
>> only by improving their perceived well-being.
>
> I dont' disagree at all.  But I think one of the most common  
> misconceptions
> about the use of a placebo (and the patient is not supposed to know  
> that it
> is only a placebo)  is that the patient's feeling of well-being  
> actually
> contributes to the healing process.
>
> This is dubious in my opinion; it might effect/affect (Ivan??) the  
> mood, but
> I doubt it affects/effects the body.

Effect - noun

Affect - verb

...though psychologists have tried hard to confuse this (I'm  
qualified to talk about this) but in the context of what is being  
discussed here, more confusing because we are debating emotional  
'fluency' and affective behaviours.

Internalised moods, feelings and well-being are influenced by a host  
of factors, and these in turn do directly influence the body. Mental  
states ARE recorded as having an effect on the body: but this is not  
then presume that mental states will mitigate or reverse a medical  
problem.

It's a complex issue, if only because we still don't properly  
understand how pain, suffering, and an overall negative state all  
have on an ill or broken body. Mitigation of pain alone can assist in  
recovery, and not just because of the physiological dampening of the  
transmitted signals. On the other hand, pain is actually a useful  
process in itself, to prevent further injury. We simply don't know  
the sum total. There is no conclusive research to date.

<snip>

> An extension of this "feeling of well-being" idea is the firmly- 
> held-belief
> in the general community that the bravery of certain people helps  
> them cure
> themselves of supposedly incurable diseases.

And we all know anecdotally that this simply isn't true. Nonetheless,  
I can speak anecdotally of those who have died around me - and can  
vouch for how quickly someone will die if they want to. But this is  
an extreme environment, and I'm not certain that we should  
extrapolate too much. Others in the business of dealing with the  
dying will tell similar stories, but our cultural beliefs will tell  
us not to delve into this topic too far with people who are dying  
(either expectedly, or not).

> This is never discussed truthfully in the media, because its not a
> characterisation that anyone can vocally object to without looking  
> like a
> complete bastard.

Agreed, our social and cultural beliefs preclude this.

> However consider its corollary, which presumably is that those who  
> die, do
> so because of cowardice or lack-of-willpower in facing and fighting  
> their
> disease.   I often wonder how the families of those who die think  
> about this
> implied characterisation of their loved ones.

Not a good corollary, as those dying express many emotions, sometimes  
all at once. It all gets very confusing at that time for those who  
are aware of their condition. Some are ready to die, prepared to  
accept it is a fate, but is it really cowardice or lack of willpower?  
A desire to die expresses willpower in a different way, and cowardice  
might be expressed in not wanting to die. It can be worse for  
bystanders, emotionally - who will interpret what they see in other  
ways again.

> Karl's condemnation of people who "exploit the credulous" however,  
> seems to
> under-rate this as a problem.  It is a multi-billion dollar problem in
> Australia, and a multi-trillion dollar problem around the world.

True, too true.

iT

From sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au  Wed Jan 10 12:22:19 2007
From: sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au (steve jenkin)
Date: Wed Jan 10 12:27:27 2007
Subject: [LINK] Part time job offer - what is the scam?
In-Reply-To: <45A36D03.7050506@praxis.com.au>
References: <45A36D03.7050506@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <45A43FCB.7070100@canb.auug.org.au>

Rick Welykochy wrote on 9/1/07 9:22 PM:
> We've all heard of spam emails offer some sort of job scam.
> What do Linkers think the scam is here?

Recruitment of "Money Mules".  See:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_mule>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_computer>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botnet>

A comment in another forum:
<http://www.phishtank.com/blog/2006/11/10/money-mules-laundering-out-the-phish-smell>

A very good set of slides from a security expert (Peter Gutman
<http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/>):
<http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/blended.pdf>

He discusses the convergence of SPAM and hacking... It's now a single
community.

The AusCERT 2005 Security Survey stated in late 2004 "the hackers turned
pro".
That's the most important & alarming Internet news I've seen since 1992
when I heard about 'the web'.
We're not up against a bunch of pimply hacker 'leets' anymore, but real
organised crime...
The rate of increase of attacks is stunning - 1500% year on year in some
areas - and not coming off low bases.

Search for "Happy New Year!" virus - there were 3200+ short-lived
variants in the first 65 hours.
It also is supposed to have accounted for 1 in *8* email messages
globally at its height.
It was a planned "zero-day" attack.
If your organisation relied only on good virus scanners - then you lost.
 The viruses streaming straight past your expensive virus pattern
matching systems...
  It will continue to infect systems until all those people on holidays
have opened their mail.

McAfee Avert Labs claims *271,000* different types of malware. I'm
hoping that not just a count of their virus "signatures".
<http://www.technewsworld.com/rsstory/54924.html>

If you run MS-Windows, there is no such thing as 'Safe Internet Banking' :-(

HTH
sj
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>
> Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 19:04:38 +0900
> From: Esteban Borges <Simone@c2i.net>
> To: rick@praxis.com.au
> Subject: Part time job offer
>
> <snip>
> contacts below:
>
> e-mail: esteban.borges@hotmail.com
>
> Best Regards,
> Esteban Borges.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Link mailing list
> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au
> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link
>
>


-- 
Steve Jenkin, Info Tech, Systems and Design Specialist.
0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915)
PO Box 48, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA

sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au http://www.canb.auug.org.au/~sjenkin

From alan at austlii.edu.au  Wed Jan 10 12:30:17 2007
From: alan at austlii.edu.au (Alan L Tyree)
Date: Wed Jan 10 12:31:37 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <2A407F10-4A49-4B41-8529-4DC31B867FC1@itrundle.com>
References: <C1CA75D0.63C%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<2A407F10-4A49-4B41-8529-4DC31B867FC1@itrundle.com>
Message-ID: <20070110123017.ee5bfcd3.alan@austlii.edu.au>

On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 12:21:32 +1100
Ivan Trundle <ivan@itrundle.com> wrote:

> 
> On 10/01/2007, at 10:52 AM, Stewart Fist wrote:
> 
> > Karl writes re placebo:
> >
> >> if they believe it will help them then it very likely WILL help  
> >> them, even if
> >> only by improving their perceived well-being.
> >
> > I dont' disagree at all.  But I think one of the most common  
> > misconceptions
> > about the use of a placebo (and the patient is not supposed to
> > know that it
> > is only a placebo)  is that the patient's feeling of well-being  
> > actually
> > contributes to the healing process.
> >
> > This is dubious in my opinion; it might effect/affect (Ivan??) the  
> > mood, but
> > I doubt it affects/effects the body.
> 
> Effect - noun
> 
> Affect - verb

Effect \Ef*fect"\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. {Effected}; p. pr. & vb.
   n. {Effecting}.]
   1. To produce, as a cause or agent; to cause to be.
      [1913 Webster]

            So great a body such exploits to effect. --Daniel.
      [1913 Webster]

   2. To bring to pass; to execute; to enforce; to achieve; to
      accomplish.
      [1913 Webster]

            To effect that which the divine counsels had
            decreed.                              --Bp. Hurd.
      [1913 Webster]

            They sailed away without effecting their purpose.
                                                  --Jowett (Th.
                                                  ).

   Syn: To accomplish; fulfill; achieve; complete; execute;
        perform; attain. See {Accomplish}.
        [1913 Webster]

	-- From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English
v.0.48

Also, to effect payment.

> 
> ...though psychologists have tried hard to confuse this (I'm  
> qualified to talk about this) but in the context of what is being  
> discussed here, more confusing because we are debating emotional  
> 'fluency' and affective behaviours.
> 
> Internalised moods, feelings and well-being are influenced by a host  
> of factors, and these in turn do directly influence the body. Mental  
> states ARE recorded as having an effect on the body: but this is not  
> then presume that mental states will mitigate or reverse a medical  
> problem.
> 
> It's a complex issue, if only because we still don't properly  
> understand how pain, suffering, and an overall negative state all  
> have on an ill or broken body. Mitigation of pain alone can assist
> in recovery, and not just because of the physiological dampening of
> the transmitted signals. On the other hand, pain is actually a
> useful process in itself, to prevent further injury. We simply don't
> know the sum total. There is no conclusive research to date.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > An extension of this "feeling of well-being" idea is the firmly- 
> > held-belief
> > in the general community that the bravery of certain people helps  
> > them cure
> > themselves of supposedly incurable diseases.
> 
> And we all know anecdotally that this simply isn't true.
> Nonetheless, I can speak anecdotally of those who have died around me
> - and can vouch for how quickly someone will die if they want to. But
> this is an extreme environment, and I'm not certain that we should  
> extrapolate too much. Others in the business of dealing with the  
> dying will tell similar stories, but our cultural beliefs will tell  
> us not to delve into this topic too far with people who are dying  
> (either expectedly, or not).
> 
> > This is never discussed truthfully in the media, because its not a
> > characterisation that anyone can vocally object to without looking  
> > like a
> > complete bastard.
> 
> Agreed, our social and cultural beliefs preclude this.
> 
> > However consider its corollary, which presumably is that those who  
> > die, do
> > so because of cowardice or lack-of-willpower in facing and
> > fighting their
> > disease.   I often wonder how the families of those who die think  
> > about this
> > implied characterisation of their loved ones.
> 
> Not a good corollary, as those dying express many emotions,
> sometimes all at once. It all gets very confusing at that time for
> those who are aware of their condition. Some are ready to die,
> prepared to accept it is a fate, but is it really cowardice or lack
> of willpower? A desire to die expresses willpower in a different way,
> and cowardice might be expressed in not wanting to die. It can be
> worse for bystanders, emotionally - who will interpret what they see
> in other ways again.
> 
> > Karl's condemnation of people who "exploit the credulous" however,  
> > seems to
> > under-rate this as a problem.  It is a multi-billion dollar problem
> > in Australia, and a multi-trillion dollar problem around the world.
> 
> True, too true.
> 
> iT
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Link mailing list
> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au
> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link
> 


-- 
Alan L Tyree                    http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel: +61 2 4782 2670            Mobile: +61 427 486 206
Fax: +61 2 4782 7092            FWD: 615662
From rick at praxis.com.au  Wed Jan 10 13:39:00 2007
From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Wed Jan 10 13:39:11 2007
Subject: [LINK] Part time job offer - what is the scam?
In-Reply-To: <45A43FCB.7070100@canb.auug.org.au>
References: <45A36D03.7050506@praxis.com.au>
	<45A43FCB.7070100@canb.auug.org.au>
Message-ID: <45A451C4.6090200@praxis.com.au>

steve jenkin wrote:


> McAfee Avert Labs claims *271,000* different types of malware. I'm
> hoping that not just a count of their virus "signatures".
> <http://www.technewsworld.com/rsstory/54924.html>

Some simple research I did for Link years back showed that circa. 1998 (?)
there were about

(*) 60,000 Windows virii, worms, etc
(*) 40 Macintosh
(*) 1 Linux

I would hazard a guess that the numbers might now read as follows, given
the above submission:

(*) 271,000 Windows virii, worms, etc
(*) 40 Macintosh
(*) 1 Linux

and the latter 41 are all but dead and certainly not "in the wild".
Interesting to visit the above link and follow on through to the McAfee
site, which reports on January 9 (yesterday), more vulnerabilities were
found in Office 2003 + Excel. The more things change ...


cheers
rickw


-- 
_________________________________
Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services

Does Bush check the Rapture Index daily, as Reagan did his stars?
We don't know, but would anyone be surprised?
      -- Richard Dawkins
From adrian at creative.net.au  Wed Jan 10 13:50:58 2007
From: adrian at creative.net.au (Adrian Chadd)
Date: Wed Jan 10 13:46:59 2007
Subject: [LINK] Part time job offer - what is the scam?
In-Reply-To: <45A451C4.6090200@praxis.com.au>
References: <45A36D03.7050506@praxis.com.au>
	<45A43FCB.7070100@canb.auug.org.au>
	<45A451C4.6090200@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070110025058.GP20784@skywalker.creative.net.au>

On Wed, Jan 10, 2007, Rick Welykochy wrote:

> (*) 271,000 Windows virii, worms, etc
> (*) 40 Macintosh
> (*) 1 Linux

"Linux viruses" are always hard to classify.

* There's plenty of them
* They exist across multiple Linux platforms
* Sometimes application software is classified as a "Linux worm" (eg PHPBB) which
  might skew the numbers.

Anyone who preaches Linux purely on its security track records needs to re-evaluate
their security knowledge. Its had its fair share of "really dumb mistakes" which
have cropped up.

(Now, openness, auditing, accountability and speed of bug resolution - thats a
completely different story.)



Adrian

From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Wed Jan 10 14:31:26 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Wed Jan 10 14:33:51 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <200701100104.l0A14Xta016617@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <C1CAA93E.642%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>

Jan wrote: 

> (to affect - verb; effect - noun)

My problem is that I consistently failed English at school, and never really
learned to distinguish nouns and verbs -- let alone adverbs and those other
things....?

If I had to stop and think which parts of speech I was writing, I would
certainly be a starving writer without a garret.

Personally, I think English is the problem not me.  I'm doing my best to
iron out some of the spelling difficulties and make it easier for future
generations.


-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458

From link at todd.inoz.com  Wed Jan 10 14:33:24 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Wed Jan 10 14:34:52 2007
Subject: [LINK] Part time job offer - what is the scam?
In-Reply-To: <20070110025058.GP20784@skywalker.creative.net.au>
References: <45A36D03.7050506@praxis.com.au>
	<45A43FCB.7070100@canb.auug.org.au>
	<45A451C4.6090200@praxis.com.au>
	<20070110025058.GP20784@skywalker.creative.net.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070110143034.030f0cc8@wheresmymailserver.com>

At 01:50 PM 10/01/2007, Adrian Chadd wrote:
>On Wed, Jan 10, 2007, Rick Welykochy wrote:
>
> > (*) 271,000 Windows virii, worms, etc
> > (*) 40 Macintosh
> > (*) 1 Linux
>
>"Linux viruses" are always hard to classify.
>
>* There's plenty of them

There are?

>* They exist across multiple Linux platforms

Can't say I've come across any!

>* Sometimes application software is classified as a "Linux worm" (eg 
>PHPBB) which might skew the numbers.

PHPBB is an application, yes.  But I'd not call it "the worm" I'd call the 
application that is loaded through PHPBB to be the worm.

Then again why anyone would run PHP applications on a visible IP is about 
as questionable as running an MS IIS server or a Windows Box on a visible IP!

>Anyone who preaches Linux purely on its security track records needs to 
>re-evaluate their security knowledge. Its had its fair share of "really 
>dumb mistakes" which have cropped up.

Dumb mistakes are different to open and accountable vulnerabilities!

At leas the *nix community patches rather fast!

>(Now, openness, auditing, accountability and speed of bug resolution - 
>thats a completely different story.)

But that's what makes it work.

Still, even the majority of *nix programers aren't as crack as the minority 
who ensure that their code is secure, safe and highly unlikely to be cracked.


From rick at praxis.com.au  Wed Jan 10 16:28:30 2007
From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Wed Jan 10 16:28:51 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <C1CAA93E.642%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <C1CAA93E.642%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <45A4797E.6040706@praxis.com.au>

Stewart Fist wrote:

> Personally, I think English is the problem not me.  I'm doing my best to
> iron out some of the spelling difficulties and make it easier for future
> generations.

At the risk of veering way OT, here is Euro English ...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English
will be the official language of the EU rather than German which was the
other possibility.

As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government conceded that
English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a five
year phase-in plan that would be known as "Euro-English".

In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will
make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in
favour of the "k". This should klear up konfusion and keyboards kan
have 1 less letter.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the
troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f". This will make words like
"fotograf" 20% shorter.

In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be ekspekted
to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments
will enkorage the removal of double letters, which have always ben a
deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of
the silent "e"s in the language is disgraseful, and they should go away.

By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing
"th" with "z" and "w" with "v". During ze fifz year, ze unesesary
"o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and similar changes vud
of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.

After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no
mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi to understand ech ozer.
Ze drem vil finali kum tru! And zen world!
From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au  Wed Jan 10 16:50:59 2007
From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry)
Date: Wed Jan 10 16:51:13 2007
Subject: [LINK] Vista Casts A Pall On PC Gaming
In-Reply-To: <45A43484.7000006@ramin.com.au>
References: <20070110080011.s9dunpi4v0g00g8k@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
	<45A42567.4020602@ramin.com.au> <45A429CA.3090204@lannet.com.au>
	<45A42C52.3050005@ramin.com.au> <45A42EBE.1070201@lannet.com.au>
	<45A43484.7000006@ramin.com.au>
Message-ID: <B0422AB5-3F29-4374-9577-1F463D5F3281@tony-barry.emu.id.au>


On 10/01/2007, at 11:34 AM, Marghanita da Cruz wrote:

> Oh the good old days! These young people today, don't know how good  
> they have it.

Young! Ha!

I can think of one linker who _might_ be older than me but there  
might be more.

Ha! Bet nobody has eleven grandchildren.

Ha!

Tony
Having a seniors moment

phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au
http://tony-barry.emu.id.au


From kauer at biplane.com.au  Wed Jan 10 16:59:11 2007
From: kauer at biplane.com.au (Karl Auer)
Date: Wed Jan 10 17:00:06 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <45A4797E.6040706@praxis.com.au>
References: <C1CAA93E.642%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<45A4797E.6040706@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <1168408752.28156.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 2007-01-10 at 16:28 +1100, Rick Welykochy wrote:
> At the risk of veering way OT, here is Euro English ...

And here is Mark Twain (or possibly MJ Shields), who did it a good
century earlier...

A Plan for the Improvement of English Spelling 

For example, in Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped to be
replased either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer be part
of the alphabet. The only kase in which "c" would be retained would be
the "ch" formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2 might reform
"w" spelling, so that "which" and "one" would take the same konsonant,
wile Year 3 might well abolish "y" replasing it with "i" and Iear 4
might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all. Jenerally, then, the
improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with Iear 5 doing awai with
useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the
rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants. Bai Iear 15 or sou, it wud
fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez "c", "y" and "x" --
bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez -- tu riplais "ch",
"sh", and "th" rispektivli. Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov
orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt
xe Ingliy-spiking werld.


-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/~kauer/                  +61-428-957160 (mob)

From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au  Wed Jan 10 17:17:29 2007
From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry)
Date: Wed Jan 10 17:17:40 2007
Subject: [LINK] When matching algorithms get it wrong
Message-ID: <A2E9816B-B12E-4053-BCBE-DF15BBF6C872@tony-barry.emu.id.au>

Linkers

I just got this from Amazon -

> Dear Amazon.com Customer,
>
> We've noticed that customers who have expressed interest in books by
> John Pilger have also ordered "Ultra Wideband Antennas And Propagation
> for Communications, Radar And Imaging" by Ben Allen. For this reason
> you might like to know that Ben Allen's newest book, "Ultra Wideband
> Antennas And Propagation for Communications, Radar And Imaging", is  
> now
> available in Hardcover.  You can order your copy for just $135.00 by
> following the link below.
>
> Ultra Wideband Antennas And Propagation for Communications, Radar And
> Imaging
> Ben Allen

I like Pilger as for his irreverent points of view and find him easy  
to read. I can think of some pretty rococo explanations for why  
people who would buy his books also might buy the book suggested but  
more likely it's a hiccup.

Anybody else got examples of crazy things like this? eg the old one  
"out of sight, out of mind" coming back as "invisible idiot" through  
a double translation.

Tony


phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au
http://tony-barry.emu.id.au


From rick at praxis.com.au  Wed Jan 10 17:35:04 2007
From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Wed Jan 10 17:35:21 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <1168408752.28156.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <C1CAA93E.642%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>	<45A4797E.6040706@praxis.com.au>
	<1168408752.28156.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <45A48918.1070301@praxis.com.au>

Karl Auer wrote:

> On Wed, 2007-01-10 at 16:28 +1100, Rick Welykochy wrote:
> 
>>At the risk of veering way OT, here is Euro English ...
> 
> 
> And here is Mark Twain (or possibly MJ Shields), who did it a good
> century earlier...

LOL ...

> "sh", and "th" rispektivli. Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov
> orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt
> xe Ingliy-spiking werld.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the above is what written
English looks like to those encountering the language for
the first time :-(

-rw



-- 
_________________________________
Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services

Does Bush check the Rapture Index daily, as Reagan did his stars?
We don't know, but would anyone be surprised?
      -- Richard Dawkins
From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au  Wed Jan 10 20:11:30 2007
From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry)
Date: Wed Jan 10 20:11:48 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <45A48918.1070301@praxis.com.au>
References: <C1CAA93E.642%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>	<45A4797E.6040706@praxis.com.au>
	<1168408752.28156.60.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<45A48918.1070301@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <FC0DD3BF-8BCC-436A-81B1-B37521EF7477@tony-barry.emu.id.au>


On 10/01/2007, at 5:35 PM, Rick Welykochy wrote:

> I have a sneaking suspicion that the above is what written
> English looks like to those encountering the language for
> the first time :-(

Some of us oldies were taught to read phonetically by sounding out  
the letters in the word. I often wondered why as it seemed perhaps,  
that even most words,  didn't work that way. I blame it on the  
problems I always had with spelling, until the invention of spelling  
checkers which kept showing me when I was wrong.

Tony

phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au
http://tony-barry.emu.id.au


From kim.holburn at gmail.com  Wed Jan 10 20:54:31 2007
From: kim.holburn at gmail.com (Kim Holburn)
Date: Wed Jan 10 20:54:58 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <C1CA75D0.63C%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <C1CA75D0.63C%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <2421B9F0-E10C-409F-A839-18C010523F88@gmail.com>


On 2007/Jan/10, at 12:52 AM, Stewart Fist wrote:
> Karl writes re placebo:
>
>> if they believe it will help them then it very likely WILL help  
>> them, even if
>> only by improving their perceived well-being.
>
> I dont' disagree at all.  But I think one of the most common  
> misconceptions
> about the use of a placebo (and the patient is not supposed to know  
> that it
> is only a placebo)  is that the patient's feeling of well-being  
> actually
> contributes to the healing process.

The placebo effect is such a powerful one and makes it so difficult  
to even test drugs, it's surprising there's not more research into  
it.  (Well perhaps not so surprising: you probably can't make money  
out of it as easily as patenting drugs.)  They are starting to do  
research into it but not much yet.

> This is dubious in my opinion; it might effect/affect (Ivan??) the  
> mood, but
> I doubt it affects/effects the body.
>
> The body heals by itself, with or without placebos -- and with or  
> without
> feelings of well-being. It even heals in a coma.
>
>  There's no evidence that the bones of a depressive take longer to  
> mend than
> the bones of an eternal optimist.  If there were, hospitals would  
> load their
> patients up with a good high dose of morphine or opium to enlist  
> euphoria
> and hasten the healing process.

Actually, it's called a medically induced coma and they do do it.   
Most healing is effected by the immune system and takes place during  
sleep so there are good reasons for doing it.

There is evidence that the immune system is affected by the brain  
(and consequently the mood).  The immune system and many organs have  
neuro-receptors.

Remember there is also the nocebo effect so to get placebo or nocebo  
there must be some brain involvement.

> An extension of this "feeling of well-being" idea is the firmly- 
> held-belief
> in the general community that the bravery of certain people helps  
> them cure
> themselves of supposedly incurable diseases.  TV Current-affairs  
> shows love
> to use the term 'hero' about kids who survive cancer and they  
> almost always
> attribute the survival to the mental state of the kid.
>
> This is never discussed truthfully in the media, because its not a
> characterisation that anyone can vocally object to without looking  
> like a
> complete bastard.
>
> However consider its corollary, which presumably is that those who  
> die, do
> so because of cowardice or lack-of-willpower in facing and fighting  
> their
> disease.   I often wonder how the families of those who die think  
> about this
> implied characterisation of their loved ones.
>
>
> Karl's condemnation of people who "exploit the credulous" however,  
> seems to
> under-rate this as a problem.  It is a multi-billion dollar problem in
> Australia, and a multi-trillion dollar problem around the world.

The problem is we know so little about it.  In normal double blind  
studies they have to account for the mood of the prescribing doctor  
as well as the patient because that too seems to affect the outcome  
due to the placebo effect. If there was no "mood" affect then drug  
studies would be much simpler.

--
Kim Holburn
IT Network & Security Consultant
Ph: +39 06 855 4294  M: +39 3342707610
mailto:kim@holburn.net  aim://kimholburn
skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request

Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny.
                           -- Lloyd Biggle, Jr. Analog, Apr 1961



From kim.holburn at gmail.com  Wed Jan 10 21:35:31 2007
From: kim.holburn at gmail.com (Kim Holburn)
Date: Wed Jan 10 21:35:52 2007
Subject: [LINK] Vista Casts A Pall On PC Gaming
In-Reply-To: <45A435E6.7000204@praxis.com.au>
References: <20070110080011.s9dunpi4v0g00g8k@webmail.iimetro.com.au>	<45A42567.4020602@ramin.com.au>
	<45A429CA.3090204@lannet.com.au> <45A435E6.7000204@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <6BD21F4A-EB16-47FD-9B83-084B118C67C5@gmail.com>


On 2007/Jan/10, at 1:40 AM, Rick Welykochy wrote:

> Howard Lowndes wrote:
>
>> Marghanita da Cruz wrote:
>>
>>> IMHO your conclusion is correct but not your assessment of  
>>> Windows.  We should acknowledge the contribution
>> "contribution" - do you mean as in viruses, spam, etc...?

Actually the first computer viruses were Mac ones ;-)

> Howard is right. Microsoft has contributed zero in the advancement of
> computing science and IT innovation.

The wheel mouse?

> They have actually set the bar and
> expectations of how computers should perform so low that their  
> software can
> be considered "toy". If you do the research you will find that  
> practically
> anything of usefullness that Microsoft sells has been either ripped  
> off
> (Lotus 1-2-3 ==> Excel), adapted (GUI as but one example) or  
> assimilated
> Borg-style (Mosaic ==> IE).
>
> Need some concrete examples of their failure to innovate? Microsoft  
> was
> on the web way later than many other technology companies, around  
> 1996 IIRC.
> Their TCP/IP stack had to be imported from BSD. Their IIS web  
> server came
> arrived way after Apache. Their browser came in years after  
> Netscape had
> established firm market position. IE introduced "tabbed browsing"  
> just a few
> months ago, years after Mozilla and Safari.
>
> The only thing Microsoft has really contributed to is the  
> reinforcement
> of the notion that combines and anti-trust legislation is a toothless
> tiger and the real message in our capitalist system is to rape,  
> pillage
> and plunder as many markets and competitors to "win the game". And  
> don't even
> get me started on the Dr-DOS fiasco.

--
Kim Holburn
IT Network & Security Consultant
Ph: +39 06 855 4294  M: +39 3342707610
mailto:kim@holburn.net  aim://kimholburn
skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request

Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny.
                           -- Lloyd Biggle, Jr. Analog, Apr 1961



From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Wed Jan 10 21:43:59 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Wed Jan 10 21:49:09 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <45A47E3B.8030708@lannet.com.au>
References: <C1CAA93E.642%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<45A4797E.6040706@praxis.com.au> <45A47E3B.8030708@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$24no3r@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 04:48 PM 10/01/2007, Howard Lowndes wrote:
>I tht t kids wr thr w/sms spk

There's a google ad banner on some websites now that advertises link 
to a 'safe internetting' site with one of the benefits listed as 
being able to decode the acronyms 'your kids' use in chat rooms. 
Interesting assumptions there, eh?


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Wed Jan 10 21:57:16 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Wed Jan 10 21:59:58 2007
Subject: [LINK] 
 Fwd: vip-l: Fwd: Article: Blind Americans demand Web access; 
 Target fights back
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$24nrqb@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>


[sorry about the ragged lines]

>This story appeared on Network World at
>www.networkworld.com/news/2007/010508-target.html
>
>Blind Americans demand Web access; Target fights back
>Court battle expected to heat up in coming months
>By Jon Brodkin, Network World, 01/05/07
>Retailer Target's refusal to make its Web site more accessible to the
>blind
>has fueled a high-profile court battle that is causing many companies to
>quietly upgrade their Web sites in the hopes of avoiding negative
>publicity
>and legal liability.
>The case will unfold over the next several months, but a federal judge
>has
>already dismissed Target's claim that Americans with Disabilities Act
>prohibitions against discrimination do not apply to commercial Web
>sites.
>This ruling, and other advocacy efforts on behalf of the blind, has
>caused a
>number of "major e-tailers" to upgrade their sites to make them
>compatible
>with software the blind use to access the Internet, says Paul Rosenfeld,
>senior vice president of federal accessibility solutions at the SSB BART
>Group in San Francisco, a consulting firm founded by technologists with
>disabilities.

[snip....more]


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From ivan at itrundle.com  Wed Jan 10 22:12:55 2007
From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle)
Date: Wed Jan 10 22:13:06 2007
Subject: [LINK] UK government to create 'super websites' 
Message-ID: <8558566B-F73F-4A4C-A2E5-7BB5478EF96B@itrundle.com>

This appeared on Kable's website tonight:
http://www.kablenet.com/


Government to create 'super websites'
10 January 2007

[Whitehall is to shut down 551 websites to make access to information  
easier for citizens and businesses, the minister for Transformational  
Government has said]

Launching the delayed Transformational Government annual report 2006,  
Pat McFadden said over half of central government websites will face  
closure over the next year.

Ninety of the 551 websites have already been closed. Agreed dates for  
the remaining are expected to be released shortly.

Relevant information from the closed websites will be transferred to  
the governments 'super websites', Directgov and Business Link.

The closure of the sites is expected to save the Treasury ?9m over  
three years.

Out of the total of 951 central government websites, 26 are "certain"  
to be retained, says the report. A further 374 of the 951 will be  
reviewed for possible closure by June 2007.

McFadden said on 10 January 2007: "This report demonstrates how  
millions of people are benefiting from our use of technology every day.

"We are dealing decisively with the proliferation of government  
websites - getting rid of more than 500 - and we are ensuring that  
the quality of our services will not be affected by these changes."

Prior to McFadden's speech at the Transformational Government II  
conference, organised by Kable, a Cabinet Office spokesperson told GC  
News: "The Cabinet Office alone has made an annual saving of ?174,000  
by closing all of its websites apart from its corporate website.

"As for non-finance benefits for citizens they are immeasurable.  
People do not want to surf the net for information; they want to find  
it as quickly as possible. Our ultimate aim to to close 95% of  
Whitehall's websites."

Directgov, launched in 2004, receives over 5m visits a month. It  
currently involves 18 government departments and has links to  
services in nearly all 388 councils in England.


Source: Kable's Government Computing
Publication date: 10/01/2007


--
Ivan Trundle
http://itrundle.com ivan@itrundle.com
ph: +61 (0)418 244 259 fx: +61 (0)2 6286 8742
skype: callto://ivanovitchk



From ivan at itrundle.com  Wed Jan 10 22:15:05 2007
From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle)
Date: Wed Jan 10 22:15:22 2007
Subject: [LINK] Fwd: vip-l: Fwd: Article: Blind Americans demand Web
	access; Target fights back
In-Reply-To: <5ii0ro$24nrqb@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
References: <5ii0ro$24nrqb@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <2C6D565E-38CD-4A61-B115-F51CF158D3D0@itrundle.com>


On 10/01/2007, at 9:57 PM, Jan Whitaker wrote:

>
> [sorry about the ragged lines]
>
>> This story appeared on Network World at
>> www.networkworld.com/news/2007/010508-target.html
>>
>> Blind Americans demand Web access; Target fights back
>> Court battle expected to heat up in coming months
>> By Jon Brodkin, Network World, 01/05/07
>> Retailer Target's refusal to make its Web site more accessible to the
>> blind
>> has fueled a high-profile court battle that is causing many  
>> companies to
>> quietly upgrade their Web sites in the hopes of avoiding negative
>> publicity
>> and legal liability.
>> The case will unfold over the next several months, but a federal  
>> judge
>> has
>> already dismissed Target's claim that Americans with Disabilities Act
>> prohibitions against discrimination do not apply to commercial Web
>> sites.

Anyone aware of what the basis of Target's claim was? I'm interested  
to know how they went about formulating a legal argument to  
discriminate, and on what grounds.

iT

From rha at juggernaut.com.au  Wed Jan 10 21:57:33 2007
From: rha at juggernaut.com.au (Richard Archer)
Date: Wed Jan 10 22:24:24 2007
Subject: [LINK] Re: Vista Casts A Pall On PC Gaming
In-Reply-To: <6BD21F4A-EB16-47FD-9B83-084B118C67C5@gmail.com>
References: <20070110080011.s9dunpi4v0g00g8k@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
	<45A42567.4020602@ramin.com.au>	<45A429CA.3090204@lannet.com.au>
	<45A435E6.7000204@praxis.com.au>
	<6BD21F4A-EB16-47FD-9B83-084B118C67C5@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06230914c1ca75663a76@[192.168.0.2]>

FWIW, the article at the original link posted by Bernard does a
very nice job of describing how the Microsoft marketing machine
puts sales and hype ahead of functionality and usability.

The description of the "Game Explorer" in action is priceless.

It really is a travesty that Microsoft software doesn't have to
work in order to sell. But then, consumers get what they deserve
and I'm sure it will all come back and bite M$ on the bum sooner
or later.

 ...R.
From stephen at melbpc.org.au  Thu Jan 11 02:26:14 2007
From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen@melbpc.org.au)
Date: Thu Jan 11 02:26:24 2007
Subject: [LINK] Call for Papers, JCIS2007
Message-ID: <20070110152614.EF0AE15A5E@vscan42.melbpc.org.au>

The Joint Conference on Information Sciences 2007
is calling for a wide range of '07 Conference Papers.

They've doing the site now, it's wobbly but interesting:

   http://www.jcis.org/

JCIS is a multidisciplinary meeting encompassing conferences, workshops 
and symposiums that highlight emerging science and technology related to 
intelligent machinery and systems. For more than a decade, the conference 
has encouraged information dissemination and the exchange of ideas among 
researchers in the diverse yet interconnected fields of information 
sciences.

12th International Conference on Fuzzy Theory & Technology

10th International Conference on Computer Science & Informatics

8th International Conference on Natural Computing

8th International Conference on Computer Vision, Pattern Recognition & 
Image Processing 

7th Atlantic Symposium on Computational Biology & Genome Informatics

6th International Conference on Computational Intelligence in Economics & 
Finance

5th International Conference on Intelligent Multimedia & Ambient 
Intelligence 

5th Symposium on Photonics, Networking & Computing

2nd International Workshop on Chance Discovery & Data Mining

--
Regards all ..
Stephen Loosley
Victoria, Australia


Message sent using MelbPC WebMail Server



From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au  Thu Jan 11 07:16:55 2007
From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry)
Date: Thu Jan 11 07:17:09 2007
Subject: [LINK] UK government to create 'super websites' 
In-Reply-To: <8558566B-F73F-4A4C-A2E5-7BB5478EF96B@itrundle.com>
References: <8558566B-F73F-4A4C-A2E5-7BB5478EF96B@itrundle.com>
Message-ID: <F038570A-E8B5-443A-9C06-32EEAC16A6D6@tony-barry.emu.id.au>


On 10/01/2007, at 10:12 PM, Ivan Trundle wrote:

> [Whitehall is to shut down 551 websites to make access to  
> information easier for citizens and businesses, the minister for  
> Transformational Government has said]
> ....

>
> Relevant information from the closed websites will be transferred  
> to the governments 'super websites', Directgov and Business Link.

I've always felt uncomfortable with too much centralisation and tend  
to have an emotional attachment to decentralised models without a  
clear idea why.

Models like pictureaustralia <http://www.pictureaustralia.org/> which  
gives a single access point and a unitary appearance through the use  
of standards while letting each component do it's own thing seem to  
make sense to me.

Maybe behind the scenes to UK Government is doing this but I suspect  
that everything is going on a big central database providing a single  
point of failure.

Perhaps it's the contrast between one resulting from bottom up  
cooperation and the other from central direction.

Tony

phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au
http://tony-barry.emu.id.au


From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au  Thu Jan 11 07:55:40 2007
From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke)
Date: Thu Jan 11 07:57:43 2007
Subject: [LINK] UK government to create 'super websites'
In-Reply-To: <F038570A-E8B5-443A-9C06-32EEAC16A6D6@tony-barry.emu.id.au>
References: <8558566B-F73F-4A4C-A2E5-7BB5478EF96B@itrundle.com>
	<F038570A-E8B5-443A-9C06-32EEAC16A6D6@tony-barry.emu.id.au>
Message-ID: <p0624085bc1cb01d97783@[192.168.123.167]>

>On 10/01/2007, at 10:12 PM, Ivan Trundle wrote:
>>  [Whitehall is to shut down 551 websites to make access to 
>>information easier for citizens and businesses, the minister for 
>>Transformational Government has said]
>>  ....

At 7:16 +1100 11/1/07, Antony Barry wrote:
>I've always felt uncomfortable with too much centralisation ...

Tony was a bit milder than me.

When I saw that late last night, I found it highly depressing, and 
sent it on to some colleagues with the following:

Re: Death of the Entry Point

An unhappy new year, I'm afraid.

Cyberspace was a fad that lasted a bit longer than WWII.

Whitehall has quickly reverted to type, re-discovered centralism, and 
can be expected to shortly re-create the Ministry of Truth.

>Directgov, launched in 2004, receives over 5m visits a month. ...

I got 3.5 million in 2006.  So Directgov beat 1 moderate pre-blogger 
by a factor of less than 20.

And the logic then is:  because individual agencies are more readily 
found than the entry point, we'd better close down the individual 
agencies' sites?

Can consolidation mean anything other than ossification?

Will anyone ever re-discover diseconomies of scale and scope?


-- 
Roger Clarke                  http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/

Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd      78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA
                    Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916
mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au                http://www.xamax.com.au/

Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng  Australian National University
Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program      University of Hong Kong
Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre      Uni of NSW
From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au  Thu Jan 11 08:18:17 2007
From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee)
Date: Thu Jan 11 08:18:26 2007
Subject: [LINK] UK government to create 'super websites'
In-Reply-To: <8558566B-F73F-4A4C-A2E5-7BB5478EF96B@itrundle.com>
References: <8558566B-F73F-4A4C-A2E5-7BB5478EF96B@itrundle.com>
Message-ID: <20070110211817.GB20729@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au>

> [Whitehall is to shut down 551 websites to make access to information  
> easier for citizens and businesses, the minister for Transformational  
> Government has said]
 
I don't for a moment suspect that the 551 old websites will be kept
around with appropriate redirects in place, as the few hundred thousand
pounds it might cost to do that properly will hurt some bureaucrat's
bottom line.

I wonder if forcing XX million people in the UK (and elsewhere)
to update their bookmarks or waste time with broken links on outside
sites that haven't been updated (and may not ever be) has been factored
into the costs involved with this?  I reckon that could work out at
nearly a billion pounds a year in lost or wasted time (say one hour
per person), at least for the first year.

Danny.
  ---------------------------------------------------------
  http://dannyreviews.com/ - over nine hundred book reviews
  http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog
  ---------------------------------------------------------

From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Thu Jan 11 08:29:40 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Thu Jan 11 08:33:20 2007
Subject: [LINK] UK government to create 'super websites' 
In-Reply-To: <F038570A-E8B5-443A-9C06-32EEAC16A6D6@tony-barry.emu.id.au>
References: <8558566B-F73F-4A4C-A2E5-7BB5478EF96B@itrundle.com>
	<F038570A-E8B5-443A-9C06-32EEAC16A6D6@tony-barry.emu.id.au>
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$24sphn@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 07:16 AM 11/01/2007, Antony Barry wrote:
>Perhaps it's the contrast between one resulting from bottom up
>cooperation and the other from central direction.

Tony, your point about pointing to someone else's work is also worth 
putting into the mix as why you may feel more comfortable with 
decentralised systems. It's why we like the Internet. If part of it 
breaks, the whole thing doesn't collapse. Same with all centralised 
monolithic systems (dare I say the proposed ID card?). Fewer points 
of failure, perhaps, but that isn't always the most important factor. 
I think many centralisers are mostly trying to reduce support 
overhead. That's the point of many mergers, besides control. Roger 
said it well: Will anyone ever re-discover diseconomies of scale and scope?

Speaking of control.....There is also the matter of who controls the 
data. If it's centralised, whoever has the button in that spot makes 
it on or off. If it's distributed, the control lies in the hands of the source.

Jan


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au  Thu Jan 11 08:37:46 2007
From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry)
Date: Thu Jan 11 08:37:56 2007
Subject: [LINK] UK government to create 'super websites'
In-Reply-To: <20070110211817.GB20729@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au>
References: <8558566B-F73F-4A4C-A2E5-7BB5478EF96B@itrundle.com>
	<20070110211817.GB20729@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <2F95AF8D-BF80-4F55-9ECE-D3D5A086EF4D@tony-barry.emu.id.au>


On 11/01/2007, at 8:18 AM, Danny Yee wrote:

> I don't for a moment suspect that the 551 old websites will be kept
> around with appropriate redirects in place, as the few hundred  
> thousand
> pounds it might cost to do that properly will hurt some bureaucrat's
> bottom line.

At the very minimum lets hope the point all the old host names at the  
directory site and redirect all the resulting  404 errors to a page  
with an apology and a search form.

Tony

phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au
http://tony-barry.emu.id.au


From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Thu Jan 11 08:34:16 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Thu Jan 11 08:39:33 2007
Subject: [LINK] UK government to create 'super websites'
In-Reply-To: <20070110211817.GB20729@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au>
References: <8558566B-F73F-4A4C-A2E5-7BB5478EF96B@itrundle.com>
	<20070110211817.GB20729@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$24sr97@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 08:18 AM 11/01/2007, Danny Yee wrote:
>I reckon that could work out at
>nearly a billion pounds a year in lost or wasted time (say one hour
>per person), at least for the first year.

They'll probably do what our 'brilliant' <cough cough> govt <gack> 
does and 'market' (advertise) it to death. Joe Cocker songs do well 
for this, I understand. At least he would be contributing for his 
countrymen instead of the colonials. hee hee

Jan


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From ivan at itrundle.com  Thu Jan 11 09:37:44 2007
From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle)
Date: Thu Jan 11 09:38:05 2007
Subject: [LINK] UK government to create 'super websites' 
In-Reply-To: <5ii0ro$24sphn@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
References: <8558566B-F73F-4A4C-A2E5-7BB5478EF96B@itrundle.com>
	<F038570A-E8B5-443A-9C06-32EEAC16A6D6@tony-barry.emu.id.au>
	<5ii0ro$24sphn@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <69F3B785-58A7-4610-9BD3-0D42BF9900F8@itrundle.com>


On 11/01/2007, at 8:29 AM, Jan Whitaker wrote:

> At 07:16 AM 11/01/2007, Antony Barry wrote:
>> Perhaps it's the contrast between one resulting from bottom up
>> cooperation and the other from central direction.
>
> <snip> I think many centralisers are mostly trying to reduce  
> support overhead. That's the point of many mergers, besides  
> control. Roger said it well: Will anyone ever re-discover  
> diseconomies of scale and scope?

I don't have a problem with reducing support overhead, though the  
corollary that more centralisation = more control is not clear.

> Speaking of control.....There is also the matter of who controls  
> the data. If it's centralised, whoever has the button in that spot  
> makes it on or off. If it's distributed, the control lies in the  
> hands of the source.

I regard this as a minor 'problem' in the grand scheme of things.  
There are others who have access to the on/off button, and in the  
grand scheme of things, there are more on/off buttons that determine  
access to a website.

'Control' can be as much or as little is required to run a service.  
There was no hint in the article that government agencies would have  
less control over their data.

But look at the wider picture here: governments have always wanted to  
control how data is distributed to the public. Just because we are  
talking about a collection of websites doesn't change a great deal.

I can think of larger entities on the web which have 'control' over  
access to data - and not just Google or Yahoo, either.

On a personal level, I am as uncomfortable as Tony and others about  
the direction that this move is heading in, but this doesn't alter  
the simple fact that on paper, the merger looks like offering a  
number of advantages. How individual government departments handle  
the data and how they allow it to be accessed probably won't change  
much.

I see this as a 'Portal 2.0' move, and as doomed to failure as  
portals were generally (and it's got a noice Web2.0 ring about it as  
well).

iT

--
Ivan Trundle
http://itrundle.com ivan@itrundle.com
ph: +61 (0)418 244 259 fx: +61 (0)2 6286 8742
skype: callto://ivanovitchk


From SHENDERS at nla.gov.au  Thu Jan 11 09:42:49 2007
From: SHENDERS at nla.gov.au (Sandra Henderson)
Date: Thu Jan 11 09:43:37 2007
Subject: [LINK] UK government to create 'super websites' 
Message-ID: <ADF6CFBF6F7B224BAD73E67A7F21EA3A01ECBED8@gimli.shire.nla.gov.au>

and won't it then become that much more difficult to keep things up-to-date, and less likely that individual agencies will put much effort into that...
Just how are they "ensuring" that quality of service won't be affected...
And, conscious of the problems I encounter in linking parts our our site to other agency sites, who's making sure nothing important is actually disappearing completely in this change - we've certainly seen important government reports and the like disappear from the .gov.au domain here in Oz when govt agencies have changed name/responsibilities, redesigned websites, amalgamated with another agency...

Sandra Henderson
Manager, Research, Coordination Support Branch
National Library of Australia
CANBERRA  ACT 2600
Phone: +61 2 6262 1481
Fax: +61 2 6273 2545
Email: shenders@nla.gov.au

-----Original Message-----
From: link-bounces@anumail0.anu.edu.au [mailto:link-bounces@anumail0.anu.edu.au] On Behalf Of Ivan Trundle
Posted At: Wednesday, 10 January 2007 10:13 PM
Posted To: Link List
Conversation: [LINK] UK government to create 'super websites' 
Subject: [LINK] UK government to create 'super websites' 


This appeared on Kable's website tonight:
http://www.kablenet.com/


Government to create 'super websites'
10 January 2007

[Whitehall is to shut down 551 websites to make access to information easier for citizens and businesses, the minister for Transformational Government has said]

Launching the delayed Transformational Government annual report 2006, Pat McFadden said over half of central government websites will face closure over the next year.

Ninety of the 551 websites have already been closed. Agreed dates for the remaining are expected to be released shortly.

Relevant information from the closed websites will be transferred to the governments 'super websites', Directgov and Business Link.

The closure of the sites is expected to save the Treasury ?9m over three years.

Out of the total of 951 central government websites, 26 are "certain"  
to be retained, says the report. A further 374 of the 951 will be reviewed for possible closure by June 2007.

McFadden said on 10 January 2007: "This report demonstrates how millions of people are benefiting from our use of technology every day.

"We are dealing decisively with the proliferation of government websites - getting rid of more than 500 - and we are ensuring that the quality of our services will not be affected by these changes."

Prior to McFadden's speech at the Transformational Government II conference, organised by Kable, a Cabinet Office spokesperson told GC
News: "The Cabinet Office alone has made an annual saving of ?174,000 by closing all of its websites apart from its corporate website.

"As for non-finance benefits for citizens they are immeasurable.  
People do not want to surf the net for information; they want to find it as quickly as possible. Our ultimate aim to to close 95% of Whitehall's websites."

Directgov, launched in 2004, receives over 5m visits a month. It currently involves 18 government departments and has links to services in nearly all 388 councils in England.


Source: Kable's Government Computing
Publication date: 10/01/2007


--
Ivan Trundle
http://itrundle.com ivan@itrundle.com
ph: +61 (0)418 244 259 fx: +61 (0)2 6286 8742
skype: callto://ivanovitchk



_______________________________________________
Link mailing list
Link@mailman.anu.edu.au
http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link

From ivan at itrundle.com  Thu Jan 11 10:20:24 2007
From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle)
Date: Thu Jan 11 10:20:41 2007
Subject: [LINK] UK government to create 'super websites' 
In-Reply-To: <ADF6CFBF6F7B224BAD73E67A7F21EA3A01ECBED8@gimli.shire.nla.gov.au>
References: <ADF6CFBF6F7B224BAD73E67A7F21EA3A01ECBED8@gimli.shire.nla.gov.au>
Message-ID: <1ED2F5AD-4710-4B97-B92C-58FBEEF246E9@itrundle.com>


On 11/01/2007, at 9:42 AM, Sandra Henderson wrote:

> and won't it then become that much more difficult to keep things up- 
> to-date, and less likely that individual agencies will put much  
> effort into that...

Hi Sandra

I don't recall the article mentioning that individual agencies were  
to lose access to their data, but rather the right to store it in a  
particular location. It would be as simple as offering accounts (on  
the centralised server - or servers) to those agencies that require  
access. But I'm only guessing here. I can't see how it would be made  
more difficult to keep material up-to-date: no-one would approve the  
change otherwise.

> Just how are they "ensuring" that quality of service won't be  
> affected..

By suggesting that more resources can be put into maintaining a  
central server? I'm sure that they'll think of something... Rampant  
ideology offers a range of options here.

> .
> And, conscious of the problems I encounter in linking parts our our  
> site to other agency sites, who's making sure nothing important is  
> actually disappearing completely in this change - we've certainly  
> seen important government reports and the like disappear from  
> the .gov.au domain here in Oz when govt agencies have changed name/ 
> responsibilities, redesigned websites, amalgamated with another  
> agency...

But that's altogether different. And harder to avoid. But I would  
assume that migration of data to the central server(s) would be  
managed by individual agencies, and that places where duplicate  
records were held could be streamlined somewhat.

Agencies changing names/merging/dissolving is all part and parcel of  
government thinking these days: it must be hard for Pandora etc to  
manage archival of this material.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I like the proposal (??).

I thoroughly dislike, as a consumer/taxpayer, having to assess which  
is the best location to find information, and in any event, there is  
simply too much of it about to make sense of it much of the time  
(less is more).

Must be the heat ...

iT

--
Ivan Trundle
http://itrundle.com ivan@itrundle.com
ph: +61 (0)418 244 259 fx: +61 (0)2 6286 8742
skype: callto://ivanovitchk


From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Thu Jan 11 10:21:22 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Thu Jan 11 10:23:44 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <200701100551.l0A5pGRZ013919@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <C1CBC022.653%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>




> Internalised moods, feelings and well-being are influenced by a host
> of factors, and these in turn do directly influence the body. Mental
> states ARE recorded as having an effect on the body: but this is not
> then presume that mental states will mitigate or reverse a medical
> problem.

The problem here is the old one of causality.  Surely, unless you believe
the 'mind' is something non-physical -- eg a soul -- then it is the body
that effects the mental state, rather than the other way around.

Or perhaps it is the body that effects/affects the mind, which then
a/effects the body in a chain of consequences.  People who are ill,
generally feel lousy.  People who are dying, generally get depressed unless
they are drugged up (and they often are, without knowing it in hospital).



-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458
Ivan writes:

From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Thu Jan 11 10:24:49 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Thu Jan 11 10:27:11 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <200701100551.l0A5pGRZ013919@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <C1CBC0F1.654%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>

Alan writes:
> 
> Effect \Ef*fect"\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. {Effected}; p. pr. & vb.
> n. {Effecting}.]
> 1. To produce, as a cause or agent; to cause to be.
> [1913 Webster]
> 
> So great a body such exploits to effect. --Daniel.
> [1913 Webster]
> 
> 2. To bring to pass; to execute; to enforce; to achieve; to
> accomplish.
> [1913 Webster]
> 
> To effect that which the divine counsels had
> decreed.                              --Bp. Hurd.
> [1913 Webster]
> 
> They sailed away without effecting their purpose.
> --Jowett (Th.
> ).
> 
> Syn: To accomplish; fulfill; achieve; complete; execute;
> perform; attain. See {Accomplish}.
> [1913 Webster]
> 
> -- From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English
> v.0.48
> 
> Also, to effect payment.



Since we are talking about the possibility of EMF changes in brain activity,
maybe the correct word is "infect"



-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458


From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au  Wed Jan 10 10:23:20 2007
From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington)
Date: Thu Jan 11 10:43:10 2007
Subject: [LINK] Australian Government Web Accessibility Audit
	Findings, Canberra, 18 January 2007
In-Reply-To: <27C20379-248C-4474-BD06-4D3B534BF4DB@sunriseresearch.org>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070108163523.01b88578@tomw.net.au>
	<27C20379-248C-4474-BD06-4D3B534BF4DB@sunriseresearch.org>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070110101335.01af3180@tomw.net.au>

At 07:31 PM 1/9/2007, Liddy Nevile wrote:
>Will you report on the event for those of us who can't make it, please?

I may not be able to report "live", as my wireless modem may not work 
in the underground "Bunker Theatre". It was designed to survive a 
nuclear attack and radiation shielded 
<http://www.tomw.net.au/travel/gallery.shtml#jgb>.

Previous meetings have been podcast <http://webstandardsgroup.org/audio/>.

The room is equipped for video conference and this has been used to 
link in other sites for past meetings. If other linkers are 
interested I could ask for this to be done. But that way you miss out 
on the excellent muffins served during the break in the meeting.



Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150
Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd            ABN: 17 088 714 309
PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617                http://www.tomw.net.au/
Visiting Fellow, ANU      Blog: http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/atom.xml  

From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au  Wed Jan 10 15:14:58 2007
From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington)
Date: Thu Jan 11 10:43:40 2007
Subject: [LINK] Digital Culture Talk on Second Life, 14 February 2007,
	Canberra
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070110151236.01ac1b58@tomw.net.au>

This is in the same series as Vic Elliott's talk on academic 
publishing 
<http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/2006/12/academic-publishing-viable-in-australia.html>. 
Recommended:

>NLA Digital Culture talks:
>
>Flying Librarians of Oz: What's the fuss about Second Life and 
>what's it got to do with libraries?
>
>Second Life is an online virtual community created by its residents 
>and run by Linden Labs. Over two million people have registered: 
>Dell Computing, Adidas, Harvard Law School and the United States 
>Congress all have a presence there. ...
>
>Kathryn Greenhill, a librarian at Murdoch University Library in 
>Western Australia, co-ordinates the Australian Libraries Building. 
>She will provide a guided tour of the Australian Libraries Building 
>and discuss some of the benefits to librarians of having a Second 
>Life. See <http://secondlife.com/>http://secondlife.com/
>
>Time: 12.30 to 13.30
>Date: Wednesday, 14 February 2007
>Venue: Library Theatre
>Entry: Free
>Speaker: Kathryn Greenhill, Librarian, Murdoch University Library, 
>Western Australia
>Introduced by Matthew Stuckings, Reader Services Branch, National 
>Library of Australia
>
>Bobby Graham
>Web Content Manager
>Web Publishing Branch, IT Division
>National Library of Australia
>Tel: +61 2 6262 1542
><http://www.nla.gov.au/>www.nla.gov.au




Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150
Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd            ABN: 17 088 714 309
PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617                http://www.tomw.net.au/
Visiting Fellow, ANU      Blog: http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/atom.xml  

From ivan at itrundle.com  Thu Jan 11 10:45:14 2007
From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle)
Date: Thu Jan 11 10:45:33 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <C1CBC022.653%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <C1CBC022.653%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <C8D84151-277B-455F-A8A7-C81AAC9BAC58@itrundle.com>


On 11/01/2007, at 10:21 AM, Stewart Fist wrote:

> The problem here is the old one of causality.  Surely, unless you  
> believe
> the 'mind' is something non-physical -- eg a soul -- then it is the  
> body
> that effects the mental state, rather than the other way around.

You're an epiphenomenalist, then... (said in the nicest possible way)

Not wishing to embark on a philosophical discourse as to the  
composition of the mind (dualism, monism, functionalism, non- 
reductive physicality, etc), I'm of the view that since the mind is  
capable of constructing thoughts, feelings and emotions independently  
from the body (not in a literal sense), then both can occur. I think  
that the jury is out on where the soul lives.

But I defer to Plato, Descartes, Aristotle, Jackson, et al in this.  
They seem to have grappled with this in more depth that I ever  
managed at uni.

For those with an interest in this area, I can recommend a well- 
written wikipedia topic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_mind

--
Ivan Trundle
http://itrundle.com ivan@itrundle.com
ph: +61 (0)418 244 259 fx: +61 (0)2 6286 8742
skype: callto://ivanovitchk


From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au  Thu Jan 11 10:54:05 2007
From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke)
Date: Thu Jan 11 10:54:25 2007
Subject: [LINK] UK government to create 'super websites'
In-Reply-To: <1ED2F5AD-4710-4B97-B92C-58FBEEF246E9@itrundle.com>
References: <ADF6CFBF6F7B224BAD73E67A7F21EA3A01ECBED8@gimli.shire.nla.gov.au>
	<1ED2F5AD-4710-4B97-B92C-58FBEEF246E9@itrundle.com>
Message-ID: <p0624085dc1cb2b66347f@[192.168.123.167]>

At 10:20 +1100 11/1/07, Ivan Trundle wrote:
>I thoroughly dislike, as a consumer/taxpayer, having to assess which 
>is the best location to find information, and in any event, there is 
>simply too much of it about to make sense of it much of the time 
>(less is more).

Entry-Points are hardly a new idea:
http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/EC/ESD.html#MO
(1999, reporting on consultancy work of the preceding years)

The Entry-Point concept is distinct from 'portal'/'vortal' and its ilk:
http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/EC/WillPay.html#Comm5

Examples include:
http://www.australia.gov.au/
http://www.business.gov.au/
http://www.canberraconnect.act.gov.au/
http://www.vic.gov.au/

Dispersed repositories, using common protocols and standards.

(No, they didn't implement anything like all of the recommendations 
we gave them;  but some of these sites are reasonably functional).

-- 
Roger Clarke                  http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/

Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd      78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA
                    Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916
mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au                http://www.xamax.com.au/

Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng  Australian National University
Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program      University of Hong Kong
Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre      Uni of NSW
From SHENDERS at nla.gov.au  Thu Jan 11 10:57:01 2007
From: SHENDERS at nla.gov.au (Sandra Henderson)
Date: Thu Jan 11 10:57:11 2007
Subject: [LINK] National Library's Innovative Ideas Forum, 2007
Message-ID: <ADF6CFBF6F7B224BAD73E67A7F21EA3A01ECBEDE@gimli.shire.nla.gov.au>

Apologies for cross-posting


After the success of the 2006 Innovative Ideas Forum, the National
Library is holding a one-day Forum on April 19. The detailed program
will be available soon, but the speakers this year will include Abby
Blachly, one of the founders of LibraryThing; Courtney Gibson, Head of
Arts and Entertainment at the ABC; and Professor Amanda Spink of QUT,
one of the most widely cited authors in library and information science.

Mark the date in your diary, and look out in the coming weeks for more
information about the program and how to register.  As with the 2006
event, attendance will be free and will include lunch and teas. 


Sandra Henderson
Manager, Research, Coordination Support Branch
National Library of Australia
CANBERRA  ACT 2600
Phone: +61 2 6262 1481
Fax: +61 2 6273 2545
Email: shenders@nla.gov.au

From kauer at biplane.com.au  Thu Jan 11 11:00:05 2007
From: kauer at biplane.com.au (Karl Auer)
Date: Thu Jan 11 11:01:01 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <C8D84151-277B-455F-A8A7-C81AAC9BAC58@itrundle.com>
References: <C1CBC022.653%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<C8D84151-277B-455F-A8A7-C81AAC9BAC58@itrundle.com>
Message-ID: <1168473606.1822.11.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On 11/01/2007, at 10:21 AM, Stewart Fist wrote:
> > The problem here is the old one of causality.  Surely, unless you  
> > believe the 'mind' is something non-physical -- eg a soul -- then
> > it is the body that effects the mental state, rather than the
> > other way around.

None of this requires a "soul" to explain. As soon as you admit the
existence of a "mental state" you are allowing a distinction between
body and mind.

The two things can affect each other - both directions. I'm happy with
the idea that physics causes and supports mind, but that doesn't mean
that mind is "just" physics. When you think of something, the thought
can be described independently of the fabric it resides in - and in fact
regularly is, we call it things like "speech", and "writing". Your mind,
via such means, can affect my mind and body (shout "fire!").

People can calm themselves down, fire themselves up, make themselves
happy, angry or sad - it seems entirely reasonable that there are more
subtle ways that the conscious or unconscious will can make changes in
the body.

I therefore disagree that the placebo effect is "only" about perceived
well-being, though I'd be very reluctant to claim it could cure cancer
or whatever. That said, it may well be the edge that a body needs to
defeat some illness.

Regards, K.

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/~kauer/                  +61-428-957160 (mob)

From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Thu Jan 11 10:57:37 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Thu Jan 11 11:02:59 2007
Subject: [LINK] Digital Culture Talk on Second Life, 14 February
	2007, Canberra
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070110151236.01ac1b58@tomw.net.au>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070110151236.01ac1b58@tomw.net.au>
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$24uhq5@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 03:14 PM 10/01/2007, Tom Worthington wrote:
>>Flying Librarians of Oz: What's the fuss about Second Life and 
>>what's it got to do with libraries?
>>
>>Second Life is an online virtual community created by its residents 
>>and run by Linden Labs. Over two million people have registered: 
>>Dell Computing, Adidas, Harvard Law School and the United States 
>>Congress all have a presence there. ...

I just saw a Second Life hack where the person doing the interview 
was attacked by a series of dancing penises to the tune of Dance of 
the Sugar Plum Fairies. Hilarious! It's on YouTube. They were not amused....


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From eleanor at pacific.net.au  Thu Jan 11 11:25:04 2007
From: eleanor at pacific.net.au (Eleanor Lister)
Date: Thu Jan 11 11:25:13 2007
Subject: [LINK] Digital Culture Talk on Second Life, 14 February	2007,
	Canberra
In-Reply-To: <5ii0ro$24uhq5@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070110151236.01ac1b58@tomw.net.au>
	<5ii0ro$24uhq5@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <45A583E0.1060305@pacific.net.au>

Jan Whitaker wrote:
> At 03:14 PM 10/01/2007, Tom Worthington wrote:
>>> Flying Librarians of Oz: What's the fuss about Second Life and
>>> what's it got to do with libraries?
>>>
>>> Second Life is an online virtual community created by its residents
>>> and run by Linden Labs. Over two million people have registered:
>>> Dell Computing, Adidas, Harvard Law School and the United States
>>> Congress all have a presence there. ...
>
> I just saw a Second Life hack where the person doing the interview was
> attacked by a series of dancing penises to the tune of Dance of the
> Sugar Plum Fairies. Hilarious! It's on YouTube. They were not amused....

awww, give us the link!

-- 
------------
Eleanor Ashley Lister
South Sydney Greens
http://ssg.nsw.greens.org.au
webmistress@ssg.nsw.greens.org.au

From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Thu Jan 11 12:19:43 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Thu Jan 11 12:22:06 2007
Subject: [LINK] Re: Link Digest, Vol 170, Issue 19
In-Reply-To: <200701101616.l0AGGapp008731@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <C1CBDBDE.658%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>

In reply to my statement
> 
>> There's no evidence that the bones of a depressive take longer to
>> mend than
>> the bones of an eternal optimist.  If there were, hospitals would
>> load their
>> patients up with a good high dose of morphine or opium to enlist
>> euphoria
>> and hasten the healing process.

Kim replies
> 
> Actually, it's called a medically induced coma and they do do it.
> Most healing is effected by the immune system and takes place during
> sleep so there are good reasons for doing it.


I would have thought the coma is evidence of exactly the opposite -- which
is what I was saying.  Being in a coma or being asleep clearly removes the
mind, or the person's positive attitude, or will-power, or whatever you want
to call it, from contention as a curing mechanism.   The less the conscious
brain activity, the better.

> Remember there is also the nocebo effect so to get placebo or nocebo
> there must be some brain involvement.

The promotion of the nocebo idea (that you can make yourself actually ill by
worrying about things) was promoted by (if not originated by) two very
dubious scientists in Washington in the early 1980s (George Carlo and Ernst
Wynder), and by the neo-con lobby group they were both associated with
called the Washington Legal Foundation (funded by tobacco, cellphone
companies and some others).


The main promoter of Nocebo was Dr George Carlo, who was a science-for-sale
operator working with Philip Morris, the Chlorine Institute (on dioxins and
pesticides), and a few other industry group.

He was selected by the cellphone industry to head its $27 million 'research'
effort through a group known as "Wireless Technology Research" (WTR).  It
was later said of this group that it 'managed to spend the whole $27 m
without ever getting a test-tube wet'.

George ran through the Cellphone Industry's money, then when they wouldn't
put up more, he suddenly had a Damascian conversion, discovered that
cellphones were causing acoustic neuroma, published a scare-book, and went
(temporarily) into business with Peter Angelos, the main public-liability
class action lawyerin America.

When Angelos woke up to George's dubious reputation, Carlo moved out to
became a best-selling author and consultant on the dangers of cellphones.
(See his role in Melbourne RMIT, etc,)

He knows Melbourne well after having prepared a report for the water
authorities which proved the drinking water was safe (in 1990) after a
dioxin spill at a Nufarm factory near Werribee.  He forgot to tell the
government that he was a consultant and technical director for the New
Zealand company Fernz which owned Nufarm, and also that he was a consultant
to the Chlorine Chemical Association in the USA.


For those that are interested:

Here is some indication as to the documentation available on these shonks:

ETS = Environmental Tobacco Smoke   TI = Tobacco Institute
E. Bruce Harrison was the company employed by the Chemical Manufacturer's
Association to counter the book "Silent Spring" on chemical pollution.

1.  <http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/bfm86d00>

2.  <http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/upw43d00>

3.  This is from a document which essentially rehashes an old piece of mine
on Carlo and the Nocebo effect written about ten years ago:
(CTIA - Cellular Telephone Industry Assoc)

--------------
Dr George Carlo is not an employee of the CTIA, he contracts to them and
acts as research director, funder and controller of research, and spokesman
for them on all such health-related matters. He is an expert in lobbying
governments, in promoting health policies, and in helping industries under
attack from environmental and health activists.

He is basically a technocrat and administrator, and his reputation in much
wider circles is now well known -- he has been an opponent of the
environmental and health activities and activists since his first days with
the Arkansas Health Department, defending the Arkansas Light & Power nuclear
power station in a controversy surrounding a increase in still births,
blamed on radiation leakage.

In March 1979, he was involved again with the power companies who had
problems with the Three Mile Island incident, and he claims to have had a
hand in writing the official government report on this affair.

He was also a consultant to the land developers in the Love Canal incident
(toxic substances used in landfill), and later to the Chlorine Institute and
paper manufacturers (dioxins and other chlorine-based chemicals in drinking
water, causing mutations of fish, among other things), and still later on
some pesticide and herbicide cases.

He surfaced again when Agent Orange created a problem for Dow Chemicals and
other chemical companies, and now we find him once more performing research
and interpreting scientific reports over the recent silicone breast implant
controversy.  

You?ve got to admit that this record is quite impressive. In his spare time
over the years his biography claims the became a lawyer (J.D.) through the
George Washington University, a lecturer at the Georgetown University, a
speaker and lecturer on ?Health Policy Issues Management?, and a prominent
lecturer in Washington DC on ?The Nocebo Effect.?

 Here?s what his documentation says about the Nocebo Effect:
 
In distinguishing the positive from the negative effects of belief,
scientists use the term placebo, based on the Latin verb placere (to
please), for positive effects and its opposite nocebo, based on the verb
nocere (to harm). The phrase nocebo is also commonly used to refer to the
negative placebo. 

Over the past two years, a small group of leading scientists, academicians,
and professionals has initiated scientific inquiry into the nocebo
phenomenon. Are nocebo effects having an impact on symptoms among Gulf War
veterans, women with breast implants, users of cellular telephones, and
consumers of fat substitutes and artificial sweeteners that some refer to as
junk science? 

Experts from a variety of disciplines have been brought together for a
series of scientific meetings to discuss what is known and what we need to
know about nocebo effects and expectation mediated symptoms (EMS). The first
meeting, The Negative Placebo (Nocebo): Its Scientific, Medical, and Public
Health Implications, was sponsored by American Health Foundation in November
1995. 

As a follow-up on issues raised at this meeting, the National Institutes of
Health, American Health Foundation, and The Institute for Science and Public
Policy sponsored Placebo and Nocebo Effects: Developing a Research Agenda in
December 1996. On 18 February 1997, an entire day will be dedicated to
evaluating the wide ranging implications specific to the nocebo phenomenon
and EMS at A Breakthrough Workshop on Nocebo (Negative Placebo) Effects and
Expectation Mediated Symptoms.

---
Notes:  The AMF is run by Ernst Wynder, an associate of both George Carlo in
the tobacco industry research area.  The Institute for Science and Public
Policy is a fake institute owned and controlled by Carlo.

It is fairly obvious where they come from and where they are going with all
of this, and it seems to be a Carlo initiative.


He now runs an organisation called the Safety Wirless Initiative, and
consults to various companies offering 'protective mechanisms'

See 
<http://www.mybiopro.ca/News_Dr_Carlo_Alliance.aspx?ID=melbourneaustralia>

---------

4.  I wrote a three-part piece on Carlo which you can still find somewhere
on the Internet by searching for "Dr George Carlo and the WTR"

5.  There's also my submission to the UK House of Commons in which I mention
George and the Nocebo effect, if you've got a few hours to waste.
<http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.com/pa/cm199899/cmselect/cmscte
ch/489/489a30.htm>



-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458



From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Thu Jan 11 13:04:00 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Thu Jan 11 13:06:23 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <200701110106.l0B16HWu026958@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <C1CBE640.65E%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>



Karl says:

> None of this requires a "soul" to explain. As soon as you admit the
> existence of a "mental state" you are allowing a distinction between
> body and mind

Yes, but the distinction proves nothing.  I am quite happy to distinguish
between body and mind, and I will even accept the term "soul" in the same
way as I accept "Leprechauns" without having to also accept that they are
real.  With body and mind, one is a consequence of the other -- unless you
believe in magic or souls.


The problem with all this placebo/nocebo discussion is that the promoters of
these ideas, very often don't define their terms

For instance, if placebo just means that the patient feels better having
been given a pill, then why not say so.  Why give it a fancy medical term?

Similarly, if nocebo just refers to the psychological effects, then call it
hypochondria or irrational-fear, or whatever.

The use of the term in a medical context implies a real physical change.
Yet if you read most of this stuff, there's no evidence of any physical
change.

There is a claim about some Boston women who were interviewed to ascertain
how long they thought they had to live.  Those who predicted a short
life-span died at a much higher rate than those who thought they had many
years to live.  This is often promoted as evidence of the nocebo effect.

Of course, it could also just be a rational realistic assessment of their
current health.

-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458

From link at todd.inoz.com  Thu Jan 11 13:27:08 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Thu Jan 11 13:28:48 2007
Subject: [LINK] Digital Culture Talk on Second Life, 14 February
	2007, Canberra
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070110151236.01ac1b58@tomw.net.au>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070110151236.01ac1b58@tomw.net.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070111132431.0220cc18@wheresmymailserver.com>


I just have to wonder with the complex lives we live today, trying ot keep 
up with ever changing laws, interest rates, increasing rents, water 
shortages, war here, war there, oil prices, bananas and every increasing 
costly MUST HAVE  technology, why ANYONE would want to have a second life 
in a virtual world!

Is it to escape reality?

Will we all soon be attached to computers more so than we are today, 
earning a living in Linden Dollars by pressing buttons on computers and 
making Avtars do the work?

Where will our sustenance come from?  Perhaps the process of having an IV 
line attached to your arm and a bottle at the front door of your ever 
reducing in size home (who needs a yard and space when you can close your 
eyes and think it!) where it will be filled with processed protein and 
glucose fluids pumped to you the way water is today?

Scary huh?

I call it "Faction"

Reality is often stranger than fiction and in this day, it's hard to create 
fiction that hasn't been based on something from the past.  40 years ago, 
SciFi stories specialised in gadgets never before seen.

Now the gadgets are appearing faster than the script writers can think them up!




At 03:14 PM 10/01/2007, Tom Worthington wrote:
>This is in the same series as Vic Elliott's talk on academic publishing 
><http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/2006/12/academic-publishing-viable-in-australia.html>. 
>Recommended:
>
>>NLA Digital Culture talks:
>>
>>Flying Librarians of Oz: What's the fuss about Second Life and what's it 
>>got to do with libraries?
>>
>>Second Life is an online virtual community created by its residents and 
>>run by Linden Labs. Over two million people have registered: Dell 
>>Computing, Adidas, Harvard Law School and the United States Congress all 
>>have a presence there. ...
>>
>>Kathryn Greenhill, a librarian at Murdoch University Library in Western 
>>Australia, co-ordinates the Australian Libraries Building. She will 
>>provide a guided tour of the Australian Libraries Building and discuss 
>>some of the benefits to librarians of having a Second Life. See 
>><http://secondlife.com/>http://secondlife.com/
>>
>>Time: 12.30 to 13.30
>>Date: Wednesday, 14 February 2007
>>Venue: Library Theatre
>>Entry: Free
>>Speaker: Kathryn Greenhill, Librarian, Murdoch University Library, 
>>Western Australia
>>Introduced by Matthew Stuckings, Reader Services Branch, National Library 
>>of Australia
>>
>>Bobby Graham
>>Web Content Manager
>>Web Publishing Branch, IT Division
>>National Library of Australia
>>Tel: +61 2 6262 1542
>><http://www.nla.gov.au/>www.nla.gov.au
>
>
>
>
>Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150
>Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd            ABN: 17 088 714 309
>PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617                http://www.tomw.net.au/
>Visiting Fellow, ANU      Blog: http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/atom.xml
>
>_______________________________________________
>Link mailing list
>Link@mailman.anu.edu.au
>http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link

From link at todd.inoz.com  Thu Jan 11 14:32:36 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Thu Jan 11 14:33:09 2007
Subject: [LINK] Digital Culture Talk on Second Life, 14
	February	2007, Canberra
In-Reply-To: <45A5A362.7040509@lannet.com.au>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070110151236.01ac1b58@tomw.net.au>
	<6.2.0.14.0.20070111132431.0220cc18@wheresmymailserver.com>
	<45A5A362.7040509@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070111143132.03ae5370@wheresmymailserver.com>

At 01:39 PM 11/01/2007, Howard Lowndes wrote:
>>Will we all soon be attached to computers more so than we are today, 
>>earning a living in Linden Dollars by pressing buttons on computers and 
>>making Avtars do the work?
>
>...well you can already make them have sex... :)

Yes but no one does that in the real world any more anyway.  Adult "meeting 
sites" are for people to express their fantasies and desires, but rarely do 
meetings and "sex" take place.

>>Where will our sustenance come from?  Perhaps the process of having an IV 
>>line attached to your arm and a bottle at the front door of your ever 
>>reducing in size home (who needs a yard and space when you can close your 
>>eyes and think it!) where it will be filled with processed protein and 
>>glucose fluids pumped to you the way water is today?
>
>probably something like the dotcom effect - all input with no prospect of 
>output.

Sounds like the Australian Federal Government and the New South Wales State 
Government.

From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au  Thu Jan 11 15:58:16 2007
From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry)
Date: Thu Jan 11 15:58:30 2007
Subject: [LINK] UK government to create 'super websites' 
In-Reply-To: <1ED2F5AD-4710-4B97-B92C-58FBEEF246E9@itrundle.com>
References: <ADF6CFBF6F7B224BAD73E67A7F21EA3A01ECBED8@gimli.shire.nla.gov.au>
	<1ED2F5AD-4710-4B97-B92C-58FBEEF246E9@itrundle.com>
Message-ID: <92627B24-EF33-4923-BE86-57FBAAF1F3B7@tony-barry.emu.id.au>


On 11/01/2007, at 10:20 AM, Ivan Trundle wrote:

> But that's altogether different. And harder to avoid. But I would  
> assume that migration of data to the central server(s) would be  
> managed by individual agencies, and that places where duplicate  
> records were held could be streamlined somewhat.
>

My gut feeling is that duplication on different servers is good.

>
> I thoroughly dislike, as a consumer/taxpayer, having to assess  
> which is the best location to find information, and in any event,  
> there is simply too much of it about to make sense of it much of  
> the time (less is more).

That's why I like the centralised index then you don't need to worry  
if there ar 1, 2 100 or 1000 physical servers.

Tony

Feral Librarian | http://tony-barry.emu.id.au
P: 02 6241 7659 | tony@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
M: 04 1242 0397 | tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au



From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au  Thu Jan 11 16:13:20 2007
From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry)
Date: Thu Jan 11 16:13:32 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <C1CBC022.653%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <C1CBC022.653%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <E164823C-D968-4CA8-B514-6BA7D122AEFF@tony-barry.emu.id.au>


On 11/01/2007, at 10:21 AM, Stewart Fist wrote:

> The problem here is the old one of causality.  Surely, unless you  
> believe
> the 'mind' is something non-physical -- eg a soul -- then it is the  
> body
> that effects the mental state, rather than the other way around.


The mind is to the body as waves are to water. Each involves an  
illusion. The water in a wave essentially moves vertically but the  
wave moves horisontally. The mind appears as something we are aware  
of when most of it is not conscious and comprises a pattern of  
electro-chemical processes in axons and dendrites and between them  
not a thing.

I saw a neat comparison recently that if you believe that the human  
mind exists outside the mind and after the death of the mind you  
should believe the same of digestion and the intestines. Who knows?  
Perhaps our digestion goes to the great guts in the sky after we die.

Tony

phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au
http://tony-barry.emu.id.au


From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Thu Jan 11 16:12:48 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Thu Jan 11 16:19:45 2007
Subject: [LINK] Digital Culture Talk on Second Life, 14
	February	2007, Canberra
In-Reply-To: <45A583E0.1060305@pacific.net.au>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070110151236.01ac1b58@tomw.net.au>
	<5ii0ro$24uhq5@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
	<45A583E0.1060305@pacific.net.au>
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$252eqq@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 11:25 AM 11/01/2007, you wrote:

> > Sugar Plum Fairies. Hilarious! It's on YouTube. They were not amused....
>
>awww, give us the link!

gee you guys are lazy! google is a marvelous invention!! even 
searching YouTube with Second Life and penis should get you close...

Oops! sorry, it's on Google video: 
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5387867190768022577&q=Anshe+Chun

Jan


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Thu Jan 11 16:22:02 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Thu Jan 11 16:24:40 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <C1CBE640.65E%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <200701110106.l0B16HWu026958@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
	<C1CBE640.65E%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$252gkn@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 01:04 PM 11/01/2007, Stewart Fist wrote:
>For instance, if placebo just means that the patient feels better having
>been given a pill, then why not say so.  Why give it a fancy medical term?

at least it's not an acronym

>Similarly, if nocebo just refers to the psychological effects, then call it
>hypochondria or irrational-fear, or whatever.

I hadn't heard this before, but it doesn't mean fear or hypochondria. 
It means taking medicine that should work, but doesn't because the 
person expects it not to. Placebos used in blind studies employ inert 
substances - sugar pills for example - and the placebo effect is the 
statistical part of the sample who get better even when they take 
those and not the treatment with the active ingredient. Whether or 
not it's the body healing itself or a psychological predisposition 
because the person thinks they are taking an active medicine is of 
course debatable.


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From jwhit at janwhitaker.com  Thu Jan 11 16:39:31 2007
From: jwhit at janwhitaker.com (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Thu Jan 11 16:44:45 2007
Subject: [LINK] Canadian spy coins
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$252oi1@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070111/ap_on_hi_te/spy_coins

Defense workers warned about spy coins

By TED BRIDIS, Associated Press Writer 53 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - Can the coins jingling in your pocket trace your 
movements? The Defense Department is warning its American contractor 
employees about a new espionage threat seemingly straight from 
Hollywood: It discovered Canadian coins with tiny radio frequency 
transmitters hidden inside.

In a U.S. government report, it said the mysterious coins were found 
planted on U.S. contractors with classified security clearances on at 
least three separate occasions between October 2005 and January 2006 
as the contractors traveled through Canada.
[snip]



Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From planetjim at gmail.com  Thu Jan 11 17:49:44 2007
From: planetjim at gmail.com (jim birch)
Date: Thu Jan 11 17:49:57 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <5ii0ro$252gkn@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
References: <200701110106.l0B16HWu026958@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
	<C1CBE640.65E%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<5ii0ro$252gkn@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <39e534e70701102249p69d9823cg6e9bc25aeb059095@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/01/07, Jan Whitaker <jwhit@melbpc.org.au> wrote:
>
> At 01:04 PM 11/01/2007, Stewart Fist wrote:
> >For instance, if placebo just means that the patient feels better having
> >been given a pill, then why not say so.  Why give it a fancy medical
> term?

at least it's not an acronym


It's not just the patient (reporting) feeling better.  Observable
physiological changes are common.  Some conditions respond much more than
others to placebos, and to other treatments without a direct causal action,
such as meditation, hot baths, and spells.  For example, the innate (ie
genetically programmed) immune system responds much more to these things
than the slower adaptive immune system.  Colds respond more than broken
legs.  Because the placebo effect can be so strong, the baseline of a
medical treatment is not that it has a statistically significant effect but
that the effect is greater than a placebo.  Hence a double blind trial
compares the treatment not to no treatment but to a placebo.  It's pretty
well established that just putting a person in a medical trial will be
likely produce a relative improvement to their condition even if they are
given no real treatment.

Ideally, medical practice would maximise these placebo-like effects (i)
because they may aid healing, and (ii) because placebos are less likely to
have harmful side effects.  (Or, if they do, it's harder to nail the
doctor!)  Unfortunately, in these days of ethics committees and informed
consent, doctors are less likely to ascribe wildly efficacious potential to
medically inert substances.  On the positive side, we live in a period of
history when there's a reasonable chance doctors may actually be able to do
something positive for most medical complaints, so the placebo effect gets a
guernsey anyway.

But there's also the (true) story of a double blind trial of a new birth
control pill, several of the subjects who were given the placebo experienced
a highly negative side-effect: pregnancy.  The doctor apologised but was
prohibited by the relevant US state law from offering corrective abortions.

Jim
From adrian at creative.net.au  Thu Jan 11 17:58:34 2007
From: adrian at creative.net.au (Adrian Chadd)
Date: Thu Jan 11 17:54:27 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <5ii0ro$252gkn@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
References: <200701110106.l0B16HWu026958@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
	<C1CBE640.65E%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<5ii0ro$252gkn@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <20070111065833.GF8593@skywalker.creative.net.au>

On Thu, Jan 11, 2007, Jan Whitaker wrote:
> At 01:04 PM 11/01/2007, Stewart Fist wrote:
> >For instance, if placebo just means that the patient feels better having
> >been given a pill, then why not say so.  Why give it a fancy medical term?
> 
> at least it's not an acronym
> 
> >Similarly, if nocebo just refers to the psychological effects, then call it
> >hypochondria or irrational-fear, or whatever.
> 
> I hadn't heard this before, but it doesn't mean fear or hypochondria. 
> It means taking medicine that should work, but doesn't because the 
> person expects it not to. Placebos used in blind studies employ inert 
> substances - sugar pills for example - and the placebo effect is the 
> statistical part of the sample who get better even when they take 
> those and not the treatment with the active ingredient. Whether or 
> not it's the body healing itself or a psychological predisposition 
> because the person thinks they are taking an active medicine is of 
> course debatable.

ISTR stuff popping up in class about the reactions of patients who -know-
they're taking the sugar pills being different to those who don't know
either way and are actually taking sugar pills.

(Again, I wonder if there's any hard research on it..)



Adrian

From kim.holburn at gmail.com  Thu Jan 11 18:57:52 2007
From: kim.holburn at gmail.com (Kim Holburn)
Date: Thu Jan 11 18:58:12 2007
Subject: [LINK] Re: Link Digest, Vol 170, Issue 19
In-Reply-To: <C1CBDBDE.658%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <C1CBDBDE.658%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <5EFC2F64-8157-4408-9562-9430AE72C57A@gmail.com>

I guess the whole thing comes down to mind involvement.  The reason  
drug companies go to such lengths to rule out placebo, and are forced  
to use double blind studies, which are not simple, is that the  
patients' knowledge or perhaps feeling or belief about the treatment  
they are getting seems to affect the success of the treatment.  The  
reason for double blind studies is that even the doctor's knowledge  
about the treatment appears to be communicated subliminally to the  
patient enough to affect results.  There is clearly some affect of  
"mind" here.  You don't have to postulate anything non-physical for  
that.

On 2007/Jan/11, at 2:19 AM, Stewart Fist wrote:

> In reply to my statement
>>
>>> There's no evidence that the bones of a depressive take longer to
>>> mend than
>>> the bones of an eternal optimist.  If there were, hospitals would
>>> load their
>>> patients up with a good high dose of morphine or opium to enlist
>>> euphoria
>>> and hasten the healing process.
>
> Kim replies
>>
>> Actually, it's called a medically induced coma and they do do it.
>> Most healing is effected by the immune system and takes place during
>> sleep so there are good reasons for doing it.
>
>
> I would have thought the coma is evidence of exactly the opposite  
> -- which
> is what I was saying.  Being in a coma or being asleep clearly  
> removes the
> mind, or the person's positive attitude, or will-power, or whatever  
> you want
> to call it, from contention as a curing mechanism.   The less the  
> conscious
> brain activity, the better.

I'm not sure that being asleep removes the mind.  Everything that  
makes up the mind doesn't evaporate during sleep, it's all still  
there.  None of this requires "conscious" control in fact most of it  
seems unconscious and body healing is mostly done during sleep which  
would seem to indicate that unconsciousness is a requirement for  
healing.  It still seems that attitude or belief has some place in  
the process, not sure why though.

>> Remember there is also the nocebo effect so to get placebo or nocebo
>> there must be some brain involvement.
>
> The promotion of the nocebo idea (that you can make yourself  
> actually ill by
> worrying about things) was promoted by (if not originated by) two very
> dubious scientists in Washington in the early 1980s (George Carlo  
> and Ernst
> Wynder), and by the neo-con lobby group they were both associated with
> called the Washington Legal Foundation (funded by tobacco, cellphone
> companies and some others).

Thanks for your stuff on nocebo.

--
Kim Holburn
IT Network & Security Consultant
Ph: +39 06 855 4294  M: +39 3342707610
mailto:kim@holburn.net  aim://kimholburn
skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request

Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny.
                           -- Lloyd Biggle, Jr. Analog, Apr 1961



From jwhit at janwhitaker.com  Thu Jan 11 18:53:04 2007
From: jwhit at janwhitaker.com (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Thu Jan 11 18:59:44 2007
Subject: [LINK] RFID on popular TV
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$2547d1@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

On Numbers, channel 10 tonight, 9:30:

Don and his team investigate a school shooting. He learns two 
students could have a strong motive, so Charlie uses the school's 
radio frequency identification system to track the shooters' 
movements through the school's hallways.



Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Thu Jan 11 20:02:04 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Thu Jan 11 20:09:38 2007
Subject: [LINK] brain/healing stuff
In-Reply-To: <5EFC2F64-8157-4408-9562-9430AE72C57A@gmail.com>
References: <C1CBDBDE.658%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<5EFC2F64-8157-4408-9562-9430AE72C57A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$254rho@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 06:57 PM 11/01/2007, Kim Holburn wrote:
>seems unconscious and body healing is mostly done during sleep which
>would seem to indicate that unconsciousness is a requirement for
>healing.  It still seems that attitude or belief has some place in
>the process, not sure why though.

I have a theory (now, stop groaning, linkers!).  The brain uses an 
unbelievable amount of our energy (calories/kilojoules) intake per 
day. So when we sleep,  the brain and the body are less active, so 
the brain recharges and body repairs are taking place because we 
aren't moving as much and we certainly aren't thinking. Does that make sense?

(waiting for Tony's directive to move this to unlink -- but of course 
this is probably still the final stages of silly season, so maybe 
he's not so concerned, but I'd imagine some members are)

Jan


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From rw at firstpr.com.au  Thu Jan 11 21:48:52 2007
From: rw at firstpr.com.au (Robin Whittle)
Date: Thu Jan 11 21:49:26 2007
Subject: [LINK] 1.5 Mbps limit lifted from Telstra's ADSL DSLAMs?
Message-ID: <45A61614.30809@firstpr.com.au>

I have a fixed IP address Internode ADSL service, which uses Telstra's
DSLAM at the local exchange building.  My current plan is 1500 kbps
downstream and 256 kbps upstream (although real rates are a little below
this due to protocol overhead) with a 10 GB/month download limit.  This
costs $79.95 and has been very reliable, since May.  The two outages
were server or router problems which affected the whole of Internode.

Until now, I understood that Telstra capped the rate of its ADSL
services - the ones it retailed and those it wholesales to Internode
etc. - to 1.5Mbps, even though the DSLAM and modem might be able to go
to 6 or 8 Mbps.

Does anyone know the politics of this?  I guess the old limit was to
stop people downloading videos too fast and competing with Foxtel - or
maybe as part of jockeying for the need to do VDSL (AKA Fibre to the Node).

Now those limits are gone.

  http://www.internode.on.net/adsl/pricing/soho.php

My old plan seems to be represented by "SOHO-1500-Power10" and is $10
cheaper.  For $10 more ($89.95) I can get the same 10 GB/month limit
with speeds up to 8 Mbps downstream and 384 kbps upstream:
"SOHO-High-Power10".  Extra 10 Gigs per month cost about $10, so this is
0.1 cents per Megabyte.

I won't get 8Mbps, since the exchange building is quite a few km away,
but I recall the modem (D-Link DSL 502T, based on an impressive Texas
Instruments chip) was reporting a speed well above 1.5 Mbps when I
initialised it.  I don't think I can do that with the modem in its
current configuration.

SFTP from my server in San Francisco runs at about 85kBps (680kbps).
The limit there might be the long distance and TCP taking a while to
adapt to the large window of data in transit - but I didn't see it
moving much faster as time went on.

Downloading a bz2 file from http://mirror.aarnet.edu.au runs at about
137 kBps with Mozilla on Windows and 155 kbps with wget on a Linux
machine.  Running two such processes, on the same file, on two machines
leads to about the same total download rate split between them.

Running one mirror.aarnet.edu.au wget process and one SFTP process from
the San Francisco server, it was clear that one affected the other, with
the total speed being around 155kB/s.  This is 1.24Mbps, which is not
bad considering TCP protocol overhead and the ADSL modem protocols of
PPP over Ethernet, using ATM within the ADSL system.  So it seems this
limit is that of the ADSL link, presumably set in Telstra's DSLAM.

I signed up for the "up to 8 Mbps downstream and 384 kbps upstream"
plan.  Supposedly the new speed will be available in an hour.  I will
unplug the ADSL modem to be sure.


   - Robin

From kim.holburn at gmail.com  Thu Jan 11 21:49:28 2007
From: kim.holburn at gmail.com (Kim Holburn)
Date: Thu Jan 11 21:49:47 2007
Subject: [LINK] brain/healing stuff
In-Reply-To: <5ii0ro$254rho@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
References: <C1CBDBDE.658%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<5EFC2F64-8157-4408-9562-9430AE72C57A@gmail.com>
	<5ii0ro$254rho@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <AF2784C6-85AE-4AD0-B36B-9BFEA593E39B@gmail.com>

On 2007/Jan/11, at 10:02 AM, Jan Whitaker wrote:

> At 06:57 PM 11/01/2007, Kim Holburn wrote:
>> seems unconscious and body healing is mostly done during sleep which
>> would seem to indicate that unconsciousness is a requirement for
>> healing.  It still seems that attitude or belief has some place in
>> the process, not sure why though.
>
> I have a theory (now, stop groaning, linkers!).  The brain uses an  
> unbelievable amount of our energy (calories/kilojoules) intake per  
> day. So when we sleep,  the brain and the body are less active, so  
> the brain recharges and body repairs are taking place because we  
> aren't moving as much and we certainly aren't thinking. Does that  
> make sense?

Thinking and being awake and especially being physically active, use  
a lot of energy so when we sleep the body can devote a lot of energy  
to the immune system and other healing activities.  In sports  
medicine it's well known that if you are ill, a great deal of your  
daily energy quota is devoted to your immune system and other healing  
tasks and you don't have so much for being active, in the worst cases  
maybe none at all.

The brain does not stop in sleep.  During a coma or an operation with  
a general anaesthetic the brain is still (sometimes) listening to  
what is being said around it.

> (waiting for Tony's directive to move this to unlink -- but of  
> course this is probably still the final stages of silly season, so  
> maybe he's not so concerned, but I'd imagine some members are)
>
> Jan
>
>
> Jan Whitaker
> JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
> jwhit@janwhitaker.com
> business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
> personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
> commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/
>
> 'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed,  
> there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
> _ __________________ _
> _______________________________________________
> Link mailing list
> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au
> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link

--
Kim Holburn
IT Network & Security Consultant
Ph: +39 06 855 4294  M: +39 3342707610
mailto:kim@holburn.net  aim://kimholburn
skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request

Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny.
                           -- Lloyd Biggle, Jr. Analog, Apr 1961



From kim.holburn at gmail.com  Fri Jan 12 01:17:30 2007
From: kim.holburn at gmail.com (Kim Holburn)
Date: Fri Jan 12 01:17:51 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <5ii0ro$252gkn@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
References: <200701110106.l0B16HWu026958@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
	<C1CBE640.65E%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<5ii0ro$252gkn@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <819A0BCB-FB5F-4FB5-B0BA-131E6DE0543C@gmail.com>


On 2007/Jan/11, at 6:22 AM, Jan Whitaker wrote:

> At 01:04 PM 11/01/2007, Stewart Fist wrote:
>> For instance, if placebo just means that the patient feels better  
>> having
>> been given a pill, then why not say so.  Why give it a fancy  
>> medical term?
>
> at least it's not an acronym
>
>> Similarly, if nocebo just refers to the psychological effects,  
>> then call it
>> hypochondria or irrational-fear, or whatever.
>
> I hadn't heard this before, but it doesn't mean fear or  
> hypochondria. It means taking medicine that should work, but  
> doesn't because the person expects it not to.

It means taking medicine that should work or have no effect and it  
has a negative affect.

> Placebos used in blind studies employ inert substances - sugar  
> pills for example - and the placebo effect is the statistical part  
> of the sample who get better even when they take those and not the  
> treatment with the active ingredient.

And the part of those who take the active ingredient and get better  
by themselves anyway.

> Whether or not it's the body healing itself or a psychological  
> predisposition because the person thinks they are taking an active  
> medicine is of course debatable.

There is real healing taking place and that is part of where the  
problem is.  The body can heal itself pretty well, in fact it does so  
most of the time without or in spite of intervention.  The other  
problem with placebos is that the placebo healing seems to take place  
"because the patients believe they are taking medicine that will cure  
them".  If they know they are taking a placebo it has no effect or  
much less.

--
Kim Holburn
IT Network & Security Consultant
Ph: +39 06 855 4294  M: +39 3342707610
mailto:kim@holburn.net  aim://kimholburn
skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request

Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny.
                           -- Lloyd Biggle, Jr. Analog, Apr 1961



From stephen at melbpc.org.au  Fri Jan 12 02:07:18 2007
From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley)
Date: Fri Jan 12 02:07:40 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <C1CBC0F1.654%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <200701100551.l0A5pGRZ013919@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
	<C1CBC0F1.654%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070112015743.01b6b440@melbpc.org.au>

At 10:24 AM 11/01/2007, Stewart wrote:

>Alan writes:
>> 
>> Effect \Ef*fect"\, v. 
>
>Since we are talking about the possibility of EMF changes in brain activity,
>maybe the correct word is "infect"

Which, said by a New Zealander regards mobiles, you'd assert, impossible.

Cheers,
Stephen







-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.9/622 - Release Date: 10/01/2007 2:52 PM


From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au  Fri Jan 12 07:15:03 2007
From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry)
Date: Fri Jan 12 07:15:15 2007
Subject: [LINK] Re: Link Digest, Vol 170, Issue 19
In-Reply-To: <5EFC2F64-8157-4408-9562-9430AE72C57A@gmail.com>
References: <C1CBDBDE.658%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<5EFC2F64-8157-4408-9562-9430AE72C57A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1D8BB39A-B60C-4931-8987-826A697707AB@tony-barry.emu.id.au>


On 11/01/2007, at 6:57 PM, Kim Holburn wrote:

>  There is clearly some affect of "mind" here.  You don't have to  
> postulate anything non-physical for that.

Feedback loops. Hormones and neurotransmitters affect mental states.  
Mental states alter production of hormones and neurotransmitters.  
Both affect other bodily systems. And the external environment can  
change the equation.

It's not rocket science to know that the effects on your health will  
be different if you are in Guantanamo Bay or the bosom of your family  
all other things being equal. Stress affect mood, mood affects health.

Tony

phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au
http://tony-barry.emu.id.au


From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au  Fri Jan 12 07:18:20 2007
From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry)
Date: Fri Jan 12 07:18:35 2007
Subject: [LINK] brain/healing stuff
In-Reply-To: <5ii0ro$254rho@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
References: <C1CBDBDE.658%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<5EFC2F64-8157-4408-9562-9430AE72C57A@gmail.com>
	<5ii0ro$254rho@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <4EA1DA35-133C-42CD-B9D7-29B353DF1B3E@tony-barry.emu.id.au>


On 11/01/2007, at 8:02 PM, Jan Whitaker wrote:

> The brain uses an unbelievable amount of our energy (calories/ 
> kilojoules) intake per day.

20% of the bodies energy

> So when we sleep,  the brain and the body are less active, so the  
> brain recharges and body repairs are taking place because we aren't  
> moving as much and we certainly aren't thinking. Does that make sense?
>

Lots of ideas and theories at <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ 
Sleep#Theories_regarding_the_function_of_sleep>

> (waiting for Tony's directive to move this to unlink -- but of  
> course this is probably still the final stages of silly season, so  
> maybe he's not so concerned, but I'd imagine some members are)

An interesting discussion. I got sucked in but I guess we should  
unlink it.

The unlink list is run by macjordomo software. To subscribe to unlink  
send the following message to macjordomo@tony-barry.emu.id.au -
SUBSCRIBE unlink Your_FirstName Your_LastName

Tony

phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au
http://tony-barry.emu.id.au


From brd at iimetro.com.au  Fri Jan 12 07:56:00 2007
From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn)
Date: Fri Jan 12 07:56:14 2007
Subject: [LINK] UK schools at risk of Microsoft lock-in,
	says government report
Message-ID: <45A6A460.6040004@iimetro.com.au>

UK schools at risk of Microsoft lock-in, says government report
11th January 2007
By Matthew Aslett
CBR Online
http://www.cbronline.com/article_news_print.asp?guid=BDD20D68-FDBF-4E1C-BA77-BBA4B7CA6061

UK schools and colleges that have signed up to Microsoft Corp's academic 
licensing programs face the 'significant potential' of being locked in 
to the company's software, according to an interim review by the UK 
government agency responsible for technology in education.

The British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta) 
report also states that most establishments surveyed do not believe that 
Microsoft's licensing agreements provide value for money, while a 
separate review has recommended against the deployment of Vista and 
Office 2007

-- 

Regards
brd

Bernard Robertson-Dunn
Sydney Australia
brd@iimetro.com.au


From brd at iimetro.com.au  Fri Jan 12 07:56:06 2007
From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn)
Date: Fri Jan 12 07:56:23 2007
Subject: [LINK] [UK] Government agency tells schools to shun Vista
Message-ID: <45A6A466.2080606@iimetro.com.au>

Government agency tells schools to shun Vista
ZDNet.com
http://www.zdnet.co.uk/misc/print/0,1000000169,39285414-39001068c,00.htm

Education agency has urged schools not to deploy Microsoft's Vista 
operating system.

In a surprise criticism of Microsoft, the government's schools computer 
agency has warned that deploying Vista carries too much risk and that 
its benefits are unclear.

Becta, the British Educational Communications and Technology Agency, 
said on Wednesday that it "strongly recommends" schools do not deploy 
Microsoft's latest operating system within the next 12 months.

And in a further dig at Microsoft, Becta argues there are no "must-have" 
features in Vista and that "technical, financial and organisational 
challenges associated with early deployment currently make this [Vista] 
a high-risk strategy."

-- 

Regards
brd

Bernard Robertson-Dunn
Sydney Australia
brd@iimetro.com.au


From cas at taz.net.au  Fri Jan 12 08:38:40 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Fri Jan 12 08:38:41 2007
Subject: [LINK] 1.5 Mbps limit lifted from Telstra's ADSL DSLAMs?
In-Reply-To: <45A61614.30809@firstpr.com.au>
References: <45A61614.30809@firstpr.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070111213840.GW26390@taz.net.au>

On Thu, Jan 11, 2007 at 09:48:52PM +1100, Robin Whittle wrote:
> Until now, I understood that Telstra capped the rate of its ADSL
> services - the ones it retailed and those it wholesales to Internode
> etc. - to 1.5Mbps, even though the DSLAM and modem might be able to go
> to 6 or 8 Mbps.
>
> Does anyone know the politics of this?  I guess the old limit was to
> stop people downloading videos too fast and competing with Foxtel - or
> maybe as part of jockeying for the need to do VDSL (AKA Fibre to the
> Node).

the old limit probably had more to do with not undercutting demand
for their corporate plans. you need high speed upload to run any kind
of hosting and/or internet service business/web site. if ADSL is fast
enough, that will eat into sales of their corporate services with faster
upload - even without the same reliability or Service Level Agreement
(SLA): ADSL is pretty much on a best-effort basis.  SDSL and other
corporate plans are generally provided with a contracted guarantee of
quality and reliability.

also because Telstra (like any Telco) sees high-speed broadband as the
death of their traditional cash cow, overpriced landline voice calls.
it's happening already, with VOIP providers springing up all over the
place. they know it's inevitable....but they're going to drag their
heels as long as possible to milk the last cents possible out of it
while they still can.

> Now those limits are gone.

well, not quite gone.  ADSL1 is capable of up to 8Mbps down, and up to
1Mbps up (depending on distance from exchange, quality of copper line,
quality of modem, etc).  Telstra is still limiting ADSL to 384Kbps up
(presumably also so that ADSL doesn't compete against their other plans
- 1Mbps up is enough for a reasonable hosting business*, 384K is less so)

Telstra has also enabled ADSL2 (up to 24Mbps down and 1 or 2MBps up)
on some exchanges. unfortunately, even though their DSLAMs in most
exchanges are capable of ADSL2 (it hasn't been possible for ISPs/telcos
to buy new ADSL1-only DSLAMs for a few years now), they have only
enabled it in exchanges where other ISPs (iinet, internode, a few
others) have already installed ADSL2 DSLAMs.



* OTOH, anyone with more sense than dollars would co-locate their
hosting servers (or rent servers) in the US. cheap, fast bandwidth, and
lots of it.


craig

ps: my new ISP (greentreefrog.net.au - i churned in mid-Dec after about
2.5 years with the previous ISP) will be set up for the almost-uncapped
ADSL1 sometime this month.  $99/month for 8M down/384K up, and 80GB
quota. my current speed is 512/128 with 40GB quota for $55/month. i'll
be upgrading when it's available. i could have upgraded to 1500/256 in
the interim, but then i'd be paying two upgrade fees...i can wait.

the ISP also says that they're negotiating a deal as an Optus DSLDirect
(ULL) reseller, and that should be available on my exchange (coburg) in
a few months. that will allow me to upgrade to ADSL2 for the same price,
and optionally let me churn my voice number over, with no monthly line
rental charges, saving the $19.95/month i currently pay for Telstra's
HomeLine Budget rental plan (actually, i'll save that twice because i
still have a dedicated adsl line also costing me $19.95/month in line
rental - a historical legacy from when that was my modem line. i'll be
able to get rid of both of them).

he also does some VOIP stuff. i'm vaguely interested in that but only
so that i can play with asterisk (i want to block phone spammers)
- i make so few voice calls that i really don't care how much they
cost. line rental is more of a concern to me than call costs (i was
paying $39.95/month line rental on both lines until i jumped through
telstra's hoops to switch them over to the budget plan - they make
it difficult....it's the ONLY rental plan which is NOT available for
ordering on their website and their call-centre staff are obviously
trained to talk you out of it unless you really insist that you want
it).

anyway, so i'm paying 30cents per local call on the budget plan. big
deal. i'd have to make many hundreds of calls per month to even come
close to what the old rental was costing me. and i have my mobile with
its $29 cap for any STD or mobile calls i might need to make.


back to adsl: i expect i'd get the full speed (or very close to) from
either service, i'm in the inner city and less than a kilometer from my
exchange.

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au  Fri Jan 12 09:39:39 2007
From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington)
Date: Fri Jan 12 09:40:22 2007
Subject: [LINK] UK government to create 'super websites' 
In-Reply-To: <8558566B-F73F-4A4C-A2E5-7BB5478EF96B@itrundle.com>
References: <8558566B-F73F-4A4C-A2E5-7BB5478EF96B@itrundle.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070111095425.019e8788@tomw.net.au>

At 10:12 PM 1/10/2007, Ivan Trundle wrote:
>This appeared on Kable's website tonight: http://www.kablenet.com/
>
>... "This report demonstrates how  millions of 
>people are benefiting from our use of technology 
>every day. ... a Cabinet Office spokesperson ... 
>"The Cabinet Office alone has made an annual 
>saving of ?174,000  by closing all of its 
>websites apart from its corporate website. ...

What worked for one small policy agency (the UK 
Cabinet Office) may not  work across the whole of 
government. Having a mismatch between who does 
the web pages and the functions they are about 
risks embarrassing and expensive mistakes.

The Australian Government has a better approach 
with its Australian Government Online Service 
Point 
<http://www.tomw.net.au/technology/it/egovernment/index.shtml#servicepoint>. 
This uses a "federated" approach between the 
agencies. Those bits which can be usefully 
coordinated are, but leaving each agency to look 
after its own detailed content. It sounds messy, 
but avoids unnecessary duplication of effort and extra layers of coordination.

ps: UK Civil Servants will be able to study my 
units on this topic, as soon as I get Moodle to 
work 
<http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/2007/01/how-to-create-on-line-university.html>. 
;-)



Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150
Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd            ABN: 17 088 714 309
PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617                http://www.tomw.net.au/
Visiting Fellow, ANU      Blog: http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/atom.xml  


From kauer at biplane.com.au  Fri Jan 12 09:40:50 2007
From: kauer at biplane.com.au (Karl Auer)
Date: Fri Jan 12 09:41:49 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <819A0BCB-FB5F-4FB5-B0BA-131E6DE0543C@gmail.com>
References: <200701110106.l0B16HWu026958@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
	<C1CBE640.65E%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<5ii0ro$252gkn@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
	<819A0BCB-FB5F-4FB5-B0BA-131E6DE0543C@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1168555250.1822.75.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 2007-01-11 at 15:17 +0100, Kim Holburn wrote:
> The body can heal itself pretty well, in fact it does so  
> most of the time without or in spite of intervention.

A friend of mine, an orthopaedic surgeon who was head honcho at a
Melbourne hospital for a while, once said that "doctors and the medical
profession cannot heal so much as a single cell. All they can do is
improve the position for the cells to heal themselves".

Regards, K.

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/~kauer/                  +61-428-957160 (mob)

From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Fri Jan 12 10:25:36 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Fri Jan 12 10:27:57 2007
Subject: [LINK] Re: Double Blind Trials (Was to do with EMF)
Message-ID: <C1CD12A0.670%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>

The reason why double blind trial are used, is not because of the placebo
effect, but because it is vitally important to rule out overt and covert
influence in recording the results by the investigator.

It is a problem of the 'witness' not the patient.  It is well known that
investigators who believe in the efficacy of a new drug will either
consciously/deliberately or unconsciously err on the side of recording
positive results.

Blind trials exist to stop this trend.


-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458

From jwhit at janwhitaker.com  Fri Jan 12 11:45:02 2007
From: jwhit at janwhitaker.com (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Fri Jan 12 11:47:38 2007
Subject: [LINK] using the net for promotion of a comedian
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$25daeh@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

Just listening to a repeat of an interview with a Canadian/Indian 
comedian, Russell Peters, who came to Australia to do shows. He just 
said that before he came, the promoters set aside $20K to advertise. 
This guy said save the money, and let him do something first. They 
sent out emails to 80 to 90 fans who had written to him from here. 
Sold 10,000 tickets!

Jan

Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From rw at firstpr.com.au  Fri Jan 12 13:10:16 2007
From: rw at firstpr.com.au (Robin Whittle)
Date: Fri Jan 12 13:10:52 2007
Subject: [LINK] 1.5 Mbps limit lifted from Telstra's ADSL DSLAMs?
In-Reply-To: <20070111213840.GW26390@taz.net.au>
References: <45A61614.30809@firstpr.com.au> <20070111213840.GW26390@taz.net.au>
Message-ID: <45A6EE08.6040409@firstpr.com.au>

Despite the website telling me the new speed would be available in an
hour, the speed hasn't changed yet.  I called Internode and they said it
would take 2 to 3 days, to notify Telstra.  I will report back when the
change happens.

Craig, I tend to agree with all you wrote.  It wouldn't surprise me if
the DSLAMs were ADSL2 in many exchanges, and it wouldn't surprise me if
they were only enabled to do ADSL2 where there was competition.
However, I don't have any reason, other than your report, for thinking
this is the case.

Hosting from an ADSL line would be fine for some applications, but for
USD$69 a month you can have your own server:

   http://www.ev1servers.net/Dedicated/RTG/servers/valuextreme.aspx

with a 750 GB/month limit and a 10Mbps link to the Net.  I have a server
at the same price (which was a special), at http://www.servepath.net in
San Francisco.  It has less RAM and a slower CPU, with 500 GB/month with
4 IP addresses.  This server has been good since I got it in February
2005: only one freeze about a year ago.  It is currently running FreeBSD
5.3 but I intend to change it over to Debian, since I can't figure out a
straightforward way of doing security updates for FreeBSD.

  - Robin

From cas at taz.net.au  Fri Jan 12 13:50:58 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Fri Jan 12 13:50:58 2007
Subject: [LINK] 1.5 Mbps limit lifted from Telstra's ADSL DSLAMs?
In-Reply-To: <45A6EE08.6040409@firstpr.com.au>
References: <45A61614.30809@firstpr.com.au> <20070111213840.GW26390@taz.net.au>
	<45A6EE08.6040409@firstpr.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070112025057.GX26390@taz.net.au>

On Fri, Jan 12, 2007 at 01:10:16PM +1100, Robin Whittle wrote:
> Craig, I tend to agree with all you wrote.  It wouldn't surprise me if
> the DSLAMs were ADSL2 in many exchanges, 

it's a matter of undisputed fact.  even Helen Coonan is aware of it - and if
the minister knows, then everyone else did long ago.

> and it wouldn't surprise me if they were only enabled to do ADSL2
> where there was competition.

well, that's factually correct (Telstra's ADSL2 *IS* only enabled
where there's competition), but the reason for that is hotly disputed
by Telstra. Telstra claims it's because they're scared the ACCC will
force them to make it available wholesale at a reasonable price if
they turn it on everywhere (even though the ACCC has said on several
occasions that they wont*). in reality, they're just not that interested
in provided high speed broadband, so they're just using it as a weapon
to attack competitors.


* personally, i think that the ACCC *should* do exactly that, and do it
regardless of whether Telstra turns it on at all exchanges or just as an
anti-competitive tactic.

> However, I don't have any reason, other than your report, for thinking
> this is the case.

check out whirlpool.  if you have the time to sort out the dross, there's
quite a lot of useful & interesting information to be found there.


> Hosting from an ADSL line would be fine for some applications, 

like brochureware web sites....or about 80+% of all the $10-$20/month
web sites in existence.

> but for USD$69 a month you can have your own server:
> 
>    http://www.ev1servers.net/Dedicated/RTG/servers/valuextreme.aspx
> 
> with a 750 GB/month limit and a 10Mbps link to the Net.  I have a server

yep, and that's not even the cheapest available. of course, you get what
you pay for - cheaper isn't necessarily better (or even as good).


> at the same price (which was a special), at http://www.servepath.net in
> San Francisco.  It has less RAM and a slower CPU, with 500 GB/month with
> 4 IP addresses.  This server has been good since I got it in February
> 2005: only one freeze about a year ago.  It is currently running FreeBSD
> 5.3 but I intend to change it over to Debian, since I can't figure out a
> straightforward way of doing security updates for FreeBSD.

the freebsd ports system is nice, but it's a lot more hassle and a lot
more time-consuming than 'apt-get dist-upgrade'

craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From brendansweb at optusnet.com.au  Fri Jan 12 14:21:33 2007
From: brendansweb at optusnet.com.au (Brendan Scott)
Date: Fri Jan 12 14:10:39 2007
Subject: [LINK] 50pc of managers could be psychopaths: research
In-Reply-To: <45A6F22D.5070407@lannet.com.au>
References: <45A6F22D.5070407@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <45A6FEBD.1060402@optusnet.com.au>

Howard Lowndes wrote:
> <hfl>
> Perhaps this will add fuel to the fire that has been burning happily on
> this list for the past few days.
> </hfl>
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200701/s1825713.htm
> 
> British research suggests that up to 50 per cent of business managers
> could have psychopathic or similar tendencies.
> 
> The study carried out by the British Psychological Society says such
> managers are often articulate and confident, but can be unpredictable,
> self indulgent and lacking in empathy.
> 
> Psychology Professor Adrian Furnham says manipulative characteristics
> are often rewarded in the business world.
> 
> "Beware of the following individual, the good looking, educated,
> articulate and very bold and self confident leader," he said.
> 
> "If somebody says to you 'I can take this company to the next level'
> beware, it might be a manifestation of narcissism rather than ability."

I remember reading (some time ago) a management article on "type 4" and "type 5" leaders (or somesuch).  The (first?) promotes the growth of an organisation in a manner dependent on that person, the second promotes it in a manner which is independent of that person.  Type 5 leaders are the better leaders to have...


From rick at praxis.com.au  Fri Jan 12 15:00:31 2007
From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Fri Jan 12 15:04:11 2007
Subject: [LINK] 1.5 Mbps limit lifted from Telstra's ADSL DSLAMs?
In-Reply-To: <20070112025057.GX26390@taz.net.au>
References: <45A61614.30809@firstpr.com.au>
	<20070111213840.GW26390@taz.net.au>	<45A6EE08.6040409@firstpr.com.au>
	<20070112025057.GX26390@taz.net.au>
Message-ID: <45A707DF.5080605@praxis.com.au>

Craig Sanders wrote:

> the freebsd ports system is nice, but it's a lot more hassle and a lot
> more time-consuming than 'apt-get dist-upgrade'

Upgrading is never that simple on a production box. You first have
to create the same environment (pre upgrade) on a test server, then
do your upgrades to that, test the whole mess and ensure nothing
was broken by the upgrade, and finally:

apt-get dist-upgrade

Given that most of the time is taken in setting up and testing the
upgrade, I don't see why it is that much harder to keep a BSD box
up to date (Robin's words, not Craig's).


cheers
rickw



-- 
_________________________________
Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services

Does Bush check the Rapture Index daily, as Reagan did his stars?
We don't know, but would anyone be surprised?
      -- Richard Dawkins
From cas at taz.net.au  Fri Jan 12 15:37:51 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Fri Jan 12 15:37:50 2007
Subject: [LINK] 1.5 Mbps limit lifted from Telstra's ADSL DSLAMs?
In-Reply-To: <45A707DF.5080605@praxis.com.au>
References: <45A61614.30809@firstpr.com.au> <20070111213840.GW26390@taz.net.au>
	<45A6EE08.6040409@firstpr.com.au>
	<20070112025057.GX26390@taz.net.au>
	<45A707DF.5080605@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070112043751.GY26390@taz.net.au>

On Fri, Jan 12, 2007 at 03:00:31PM +1100, Rick Welykochy wrote:
> Craig Sanders wrote:
> 
> >the freebsd ports system is nice, but it's a lot more hassle and a lot
> >more time-consuming than 'apt-get dist-upgrade'
> 
> Upgrading is never that simple on a production box. You first have
> to create the same environment (pre upgrade) on a test server, then
> do your upgrades to that, test the whole mess and ensure nothing
> was broken by the upgrade, and finally:
> 
> apt-get dist-upgrade

well, kind of. yes and no. "yes", you need to test the upgrade first.
and "no", you don't always have to replicate the exact environment on
a test server. as long as you test that the stuff that the production
server needs will continue working after the upgrade, that is (most of
the time) enough.

the more crucial the server, the more important it is to test
thoroughly.

> Given that most of the time is taken in setting up and testing the
> upgrade, I don't see why it is that much harder to keep a BSD box up
> to date (Robin's words, not Craig's).

downloading and compiling source for each package that needs upgrading
is time-consuming and a significant load on the system (CPU, disk,
memory) - even if it's all automated by Makefiles as the BSD ports
system is. in short, it's tedious - and time better spent on testing
and/or configuring the packages.



> Does Bush check the Rapture Index daily, as Reagan did his stars?
> We don't know, but would anyone be surprised?
>      -- Richard Dawkins

i just finished his God Delusion book the other day. preaching to the
choir, but an excellent book. it changed my mind about one thing: even
moderate religion is dangerous, in that it provides a safe environment
for lunatic religion to grow.

recommended reading for anyone who's ever been tempted to believe in a
personal creator god.

of course, anyone who REALLY needs to read it wouldn't go anywhere near
such a satanic piece of filth.


craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From rw at firstpr.com.au  Fri Jan 12 15:43:43 2007
From: rw at firstpr.com.au (Robin Whittle)
Date: Fri Jan 12 15:44:19 2007
Subject: [LINK] Keeping FreeBSD up to date vs. Debian
In-Reply-To: <45A707DF.5080605@praxis.com.au>
References: <45A61614.30809@firstpr.com.au>	<20070111213840.GW26390@taz.net.au>	<45A6EE08.6040409@firstpr.com.au>	<20070112025057.GX26390@taz.net.au>
	<45A707DF.5080605@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <45A711FF.9000004@firstpr.com.au>

In "Re: [LINK] 1.5 Mbps limit lifted from Telstra's ADSL DSLAMs?" Rick
Welykochy wrote:

> Upgrading is never that simple on a production box. You first have
> to create the same environment (pre upgrade) on a test server, then
> do your upgrades to that, test the whole mess and ensure nothing
> was broken by the upgrade, and finally:
> 
> apt-get dist-upgrade
> 
> Given that most of the time is taken in setting up and testing the
> upgrade, I don't see why it is that much harder to keep a BSD box
> up to date (Robin's words, not Craig's).

I was referring not to setting up the operating system, but keeping it
up-to-date in terms of security patches.  I spent a long time trying to
figure out a foolproof, simple, way of doing this with FreeBSD 5.3 - and
didn't reach a good conclusion.  I am not saying it can't be done - just
that I couldn't find it after quite a few hours trying.

Debian is simple:

  apt-get update   (Updates the local database of applications
                    which are available.)
  atp-get upgrade  (Resolves dependencies, downloads and installs them.)


The last time I changed the OS I rented this new, cheaper, server in
parallel with the older one (running RedHat 7, I recall).  This time, I
will get them to install the new OS on the same machine and then set it
up myself - so I expect the web sites will be off the air for a day or so.

 - Robin

From brd at iimetro.com.au  Fri Jan 12 15:45:51 2007
From: brd at iimetro.com.au (Bernard Robertson-Dunn)
Date: Fri Jan 12 15:46:06 2007
Subject: [LINK] 50pc of managers could be psychopaths: research
Message-ID: <45A7127F.2080507@iimetro.com.au>

Howard Lowndes wrote:

> <hfl>
> Perhaps this will add fuel to the fire that has been burning happily on 
> this list for the past few days.
> </hfl>
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200701/s1825713.htm
> 
> British research suggests that up to 50 per cent of business managers 
> could have psychopathic or similar tendencies.

Here's a suggestion relevant to the IT industry (it may apply to other
industry, I can't comment"

When someone becomes a manager (it may happen earlier but it often
happens then) they lose touch with the skills and expertise of the
people they are managing.

This means that they are operating in a world where they don't
adequately understand the details of what's happening. Or to put it
another way, they lose touch with reality.

	http://www.healthsquare.com/mc/fgmc2415.htm
	Paranoid Schizophrenia

	Schizophrenia -one of the most damaging of all mental disorders-
	causes its victims to lose touch with reality.

The number of projects I have worked on where the people in charge have
no idea of the reality of the system being developed, yet make crucial,
fundamental, project killing decisions is still growing.

I find it most frustrating, but I don't think it is resulting in a
mental disease. Although I could be wrong - my disease might manifest
itself in repeatedly working in such environments hoping that the next
time it will be different.

-- 

Regards
brd

Bernard Robertson-Dunn
Sydney Australia
brd@iimetro.com.au



-- 

Regards
brd

Bernard Robertson-Dunn
Sydney Australia
brd@iimetro.com.au


From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Fri Jan 12 16:13:48 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Fri Jan 12 16:18:33 2007
Subject: [LINK] 50pc of managers could be psychopaths: research
In-Reply-To: <45A7127F.2080507@iimetro.com.au>
References: <45A7127F.2080507@iimetro.com.au>
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$25gmhm@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 03:45 PM 12/01/2007, Bernard Robertson-Dunn wrote:
>This means that they are operating in a world where they don't
>adequately understand the details of what's happening. Or to put it
>another way, they lose touch with reality.

Yes, it often is that way. Possibly this is due to the change in 
responsibilities that come with having to think about different 
issues than what you may have done in the 'skills' area. And the 
longer you're in management, the worse it gets because you can't 
possibly keep up with your specialty AND think broadly AND manage 
projects. That's why involvement and consultation is so important, 
but is seldom done. The assumption is that if you make 'the big 
bucks' you need to have all the answers, despite that impossibility. Catch 22.

Jan


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au  Fri Jan 12 16:31:41 2007
From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry)
Date: Fri Jan 12 16:31:55 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <20070109124727.5ed65ed2.alan@austlii.edu.au>
References: <C1C92FAB.628%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<5ii0ro$242hd7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
	<20070109124727.5ed65ed2.alan@austlii.edu.au>
Message-ID: <961F7894-B308-4D90-8CAB-4EE2EFBC381F@tony-barry.emu.id.au>


On 09/01/2007, at 12:47 PM, Alan L Tyree wrote:

> Am I the only one here old enough to remember the Club of Rome?

Yes. I read their report in draft and commented on it suggesting that  
they should transfer the demand for oil to coal when the oil ran out.  
as a consequence they cut their figure for the lifetime of coal  
reserves.

> Of
> course, those weren't scientific tests, they were computer models.  
> Like
> most of the "scientific" predictions of today.

ALL mathematical based theories are models. Also as soon as you get  
away from anything trivial there are no exact analytic solutions and  
you have to go to numerical approximations. This means computers for  
anything other than the extremely simple. Then to top it all off any  
set of equations which aren't dead simple are chaotic and after a  
period of time the prediction will rapidly drift away from what the  
real world does because of the impossibility of pinning down the  
initial conditions. The key is doing a sensitivity analysis to have a  
handle on what the likely time into the future the prediction will  
hold.  Even planetary dynamics are chaotic over a sufficiently long  
timescale.

The Club of Rome said we could be in strife through a resource  
crisis, a food crisis or a pollution crisis around the end of the  
century depending what we did. They checked the sensitivity of the  
prediction with respect to resources and showed that a doubling(?) of  
reserves just moved the problem back a decade or two because of the  
nature of exponential growth. They refined the model twice since.

Donella H Meadows, Dennis L Meadows and J?rgen Randers. "Beyond the  
limits: global collapse or a sustainable future". Earthscan, 1992

Donella Meadows, J?rgen Randers and Dennis Meadows. "Limits to  
growth; the 30-year update". Earthscan, 2005.

Their conclusions overall haven't changed. The timeline has shifted  
back a few decades not unexpectedly and there is trouble coming a few  
decades ahead. Depending what we do it will be very nasty or only  
somewhat unpleasant for a time.

Look where we are at now -

Resources
---------
Crude oil production will probably peak by 2015 and then start to  
decline with natural gas not to far behind.

For many metals we are going to lower and lower quality ores.

Pollution
---------
Global warming

Rapidly increasing dead zones in the oceans

Ozone hole not decreasing as expected

Inexplicable rise in cancers in the developed world

Food
----
Soil depletion

Rapid fall in the water tables in key grain growing areas which rely  
on ground water

Per capita grain reserves lowest for 35 years

Loss of crude oil will impact heavily on the green revolution


The crunch is coming.

If anybody wants to discuss this could we shift it to unlink.

While I write this it is 40.8 degrees in my part of Canberra so I'm  
feeling a bit crabby. It was over 40 yesterday but there is a change  
coming although the storms appear to have gone to the south of us.

Tony

phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au
http://tony-barry.emu.id.au



From kim.holburn at gmail.com  Fri Jan 12 17:58:06 2007
From: kim.holburn at gmail.com (Kim Holburn)
Date: Fri Jan 12 17:58:24 2007
Subject: [LINK] Re: Double Blind Trials (Was to do with EMF)
In-Reply-To: <C1CD12A0.670%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <C1CD12A0.670%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <9A39D81F-81B3-4A45-BBA0-48BF30E25B74@gmail.com>


On 2007/Jan/12, at 12:25 AM, Stewart Fist wrote:
> The reason why double blind trial are used, is not because of the  
> placebo
> effect, but because it is vitally important to rule out overt and  
> covert
> influence in recording the results by the investigator.
>
> It is a problem of the 'witness' not the patient.  It is well known  
> that
> investigators who believe in the efficacy of a new drug will either
> consciously/deliberately or unconsciously err on the side of recording
> positive results.
>
> Blind trials exist to stop this trend.

I hadn't thought about it quite like that.  Do you think then, that  
the placebo effect is just a virtual effect for the purposes of drug  
testing and not something that's really happening at all?

Kim

--
Kim Holburn
IT Network & Security Consultant
Ph: +39 06 855 4294  M: +39 3342707610
mailto:kim@holburn.net  aim://kimholburn
skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request

Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny.
                           -- Lloyd Biggle, Jr. Analog, Apr 1961



From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au  Fri Jan 12 18:32:06 2007
From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au)
Date: Fri Jan 12 18:32:11 2007
Subject: [LINK] Re: Double Blind Trials (Was to do with EMF)
In-Reply-To: <9A39D81F-81B3-4A45-BBA0-48BF30E25B74@gmail.com>
References: <C1CD12A0.670%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<9A39D81F-81B3-4A45-BBA0-48BF30E25B74@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45A73976.2000806@ozemail.com.au>

Kim Holburn wrote:

>
> On 2007/Jan/12, at 12:25 AM, Stewart Fist wrote:
>
>> The reason why double blind trial are used, is not because of the  
>> placebo
>> effect, but because it is vitally important to rule out overt and  
>> covert
>> influence in recording the results by the investigator.
>>
>> It is a problem of the 'witness' not the patient.  It is well known  
>> that
>> investigators who believe in the efficacy of a new drug will either
>> consciously/deliberately or unconsciously err on the side of recording
>> positive results.
>>
>> Blind trials exist to stop this trend.
>
>
> I hadn't thought about it quite like that.  Do you think then, that  
> the placebo effect is just a virtual effect for the purposes of drug  
> testing and not something that's really happening at all?

It's more complex than that. "Placebo effect" is, anyway, a pop-culture 
shorthand for a complex phenomenon. Summarising this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo
(sorry to those who object to WP)

1) Drug and placebo are equally ineffective
2) Drug is effective but has nasty side effects.
3) Drug is ineffective *and* has nasty side effects

And:
1) Side effects are noticable before the drug's desired effect
2) Side effects are slower

So. What's perceived as a placebo effect may be:
- the placebo doesn't cause side-effects, so people using the placebo 
report feeling better than those using the active drug
- the subjects recognise that they're receiving a placebo (because of 
the lack of side effects), which effects how they report how they're feeling
- the subjects genuinely can't tell, in which case the outputs of the 
study can be trusted
...and so on.

Even in the double-blind test, the presence or absence of side-effects 
is a big marker to the recipient.

Because this all gets shorthanded, people believe that there's a simple 
something called the 'placebo effect' which everybody knows about and 
has been proved and measured and so on. It's no such thing; it's a 
debateable artefact of measurement which may reflect patient psychology, 
or may reflect the way drug tests are conducted, or ...

RC

>
> Kim
>
> -- 
> Kim Holburn
> IT Network & Security Consultant
> Ph: +39 06 855 4294  M: +39 3342707610
> mailto:kim@holburn.net  aim://kimholburn
> skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request
>
> Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny.
>                           -- Lloyd Biggle, Jr. Analog, Apr 1961
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Link mailing list
> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au
> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link
>
From link at todd.inoz.com  Fri Jan 12 18:53:21 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Fri Jan 12 18:56:57 2007
Subject: [LINK] 50pc of managers could be psychopaths: research
In-Reply-To: <45A6F22D.5070407@lannet.com.au>
References: <45A6F22D.5070407@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070112185131.033f5400@wheresmymailserver.com>


Ohhh ,my wife will like that topic!

Her feature film "Anatomy of a Psychath" based on true events from 
April/May 2003 and her Documentary "Don't Tell Bill" goes into the analysis 
and defining of Psychopaths.

I did post a link here some months ago for people to do a Psychopath Survey 
by the only person studying psychopathy in Australia.

It would be fun if everyone on Link took the test!  And those can arrange 
an hour or two in Sydney to do the actually Skin Resistance testing :)

A lot of fun!

Let me know if you do, maybe wed can come and film it for the Documentary :)

At 01:27 PM 12/01/2007, Howard Lowndes wrote:
><hfl>
>Perhaps this will add fuel to the fire that has been burning happily on 
>this list for the past few days.
></hfl>
>
>http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200701/s1825713.htm
>
>British research suggests that up to 50 per cent of business managers 
>could have psychopathic or similar tendencies.
>
>The study carried out by the British Psychological Society says such 
>managers are often articulate and confident, but can be unpredictable, 
>self indulgent and lacking in empathy.
>
>Psychology Professor Adrian Furnham says manipulative characteristics are 
>often rewarded in the business world.
>
>"Beware of the following individual, the good looking, educated, 
>articulate and very bold and self confident leader," he said.
>
>"If somebody says to you 'I can take this company to the next level' 
>beware, it might be a manifestation of narcissism rather than ability."
>--
>Howard.
>LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people <http://lannetlinux.com>
>When you want a computer system that works, just choose Linux;
>When you want a computer system that works, just, choose Microsoft.
>--
>Flatter government, not fatter government; abolish the Australian states.
>
>_______________________________________________
>Link mailing list
>Link@mailman.anu.edu.au
>http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link

From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Fri Jan 12 19:00:20 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Fri Jan 12 19:03:36 2007
Subject: [LINK] Re: Double Blind Trials (Was to do with EMF)
In-Reply-To: <45A73976.2000806@ozemail.com.au>
References: <C1CD12A0.670%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<9A39D81F-81B3-4A45-BBA0-48BF30E25B74@gmail.com>
	<45A73976.2000806@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$25iaf7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 06:32 PM 12/01/2007, rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote:
>it's a debateable artefact of measurement which may reflect patient 
>psychology, or may reflect the way drug tests are conducted, or ...

may be a situation where the measures are NOT self-report, but are 
actual measures of healing of the body in terms of time or reduction 
in a tumour or production of some antibody or....


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From adrian at creative.net.au  Fri Jan 12 19:17:28 2007
From: adrian at creative.net.au (Adrian Chadd)
Date: Fri Jan 12 19:13:20 2007
Subject: [LINK] Re: Double Blind Trials (Was to do with EMF)
In-Reply-To: <45A73976.2000806@ozemail.com.au>
References: <C1CD12A0.670%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<9A39D81F-81B3-4A45-BBA0-48BF30E25B74@gmail.com>
	<45A73976.2000806@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070112081728.GF8593@skywalker.creative.net.au>

On Fri, Jan 12, 2007, rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote:

> Even in the double-blind test, the presence or absence of side-effects 
> is a big marker to the recipient.

And, if my psychology lectures serve me right, are attempted to be 
counted for by introducing similar side effects into the placebo drug.



Adrian

From fpilcher at netspeed.com.au  Fri Jan 12 20:00:34 2007
From: fpilcher at netspeed.com.au (Fred Pilcher)
Date: Fri Jan 12 20:02:21 2007
Subject: [LINK] using the net for promotion of a comedian
In-Reply-To: <5ii0ro$25daeh@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
References: <5ii0ro$25daeh@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <200701122000.34707.fpilcher@netspeed.com.au>

Jan wrote:
> Just listening to a repeat of an interview with a Canadian/Indian
> comedian, Russell Peters, who came to Australia to do shows. He just
> said that before he came, the promoters set aside $20K to advertise.
> This guy said save the money, and let him do something first. They
> sent out emails to 80 to 90 fans who had written to him from here.
> Sold 10,000 tickets!

Not surprised. A friend in the US told me that the Dresden Dolls were coming 
to Oz - I looked at the site - two days after the announcement all concerts 
were sold out. No (paid) advertising at all.

Fred
From fpilcher at netspeed.com.au  Fri Jan 12 20:00:34 2007
From: fpilcher at netspeed.com.au (Fred Pilcher)
Date: Fri Jan 12 20:02:27 2007
Subject: [LINK] using the net for promotion of a comedian
In-Reply-To: <5ii0ro$25daeh@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
References: <5ii0ro$25daeh@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <200701122000.34707.fpilcher@netspeed.com.au>

Jan wrote:
> Just listening to a repeat of an interview with a Canadian/Indian
> comedian, Russell Peters, who came to Australia to do shows. He just
> said that before he came, the promoters set aside $20K to advertise.
> This guy said save the money, and let him do something first. They
> sent out emails to 80 to 90 fans who had written to him from here.
> Sold 10,000 tickets!

Not surprised. A friend in the US told me that the Dresden Dolls were coming 
to Oz - I looked at the site - two days after the announcement all concerts 
were sold out. No (paid) advertising at all.

Fred
From rick at praxis.com.au  Fri Jan 12 22:25:18 2007
From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Fri Jan 12 22:25:35 2007
Subject: [LINK] World Domination 201
Message-ID: <45A7701E.7030108@praxis.com.au>

Fred Pilcher wrote:

 > An interesting treatise on the potential of Linux to take over the world by 2008.
 > http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/world-domination/world-domination-201.html#id247970

Very interesting reading. There is quite a lot to digest but the gist of
Linux World Domination 201 is that the desktop will not be ready for the 64-bit takeover
that is coming up in December 2008 if Linux does not provide the FULL multi-media
package, i.e. including Quicktime 7, Real Player, MP3 and other patented technologies.

The solution that Raymond grudgingly admits is to (for the time being until certain
patents expire) is to offer a not-quite-totally-free version of Linux and find a corporate
sponsor to pay the the required licence fees. And he has done just that through
Linspire and Freespire:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/world-domination/world-domination-201.html#id288946

I had a read of the Freespire FAQ which touches on this very topic
<http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/FAQ_Category:_About_Freespire_and_The_Freespire_Project>
and it turns out there are now two free as in beer versions of Freespire,
one which includes legal copies of proprietary codecs and device drivers, etc, and a
complete OSS version which does not. The list of proprietary pieces to the puzzle that
can make Linux a competitive and killer desktop is here:

http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/Summary_of_Proprietary_Components

There are only 20 such pieces, i.e. less than 1% of the entire Freespire distro.
And with those pieces, Freespire can now compete for the first time with Windows
and Mac OS X. And of course, one can pruchase Linspire if full support is required.

Has anyone tried Freespire? I am inspired to do so. It might just be the killer
Debian distro. One would have to be an ultra-purist to forgo these 20 proprietary
components and use a substandard multimedia desktop. But who am I to judge?

cheers
rickw


-- 
_________________________________
Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services

Does Bush check the Rapture Index daily, as Reagan did his stars?
We don't know, but would anyone be surprised?
      -- Richard Dawkins

From rick at praxis.com.au  Fri Jan 12 23:47:48 2007
From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Fri Jan 12 23:48:17 2007
Subject: [LINK] Australia trials low-cost laptop
Message-ID: <45A78374.8080301@praxis.com.au>

The "One Laptop Per Child" program is to be trialled in Australia.
The laptops cost approx $US 150 and run open source software.


<http://www.smh.com.au/news/laptops--desktops/australia-trials-low-cost-laptop/2007/01/12/1168105153500.html>
or
<http://preview.tinyurl.com/ykw4m5>

Quotes from the article follow.

cheers
rickw


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Asher Moses
January 12, 2007 - 11:07AM

The One Laptop Per Child (OLPC) project aims to put low-cost laptops into
the hands of impoverished children in the developing world, but work is
already underway to trial them among indigenous populations in Australia.

The simple laptop, currently being built for around $US150 each, is the
brainchild of MIT Media Lab and Nicholas Negroponte, who billed it as being
revolutionary for children's education.

...

"There are numerous other areas in Queensland, WA, SA, NSW, Vic and Tas
that hold equal potential."

Sharron Noske, deputy chief executive of planning and resources for the
Northern Territory Department of Employment, Education and Training (DEET),
said two samples were being tested to decide whether to go ahead with a
trial program.

"DEET is keen to look at an extended pilot where a whole class of students
use the laptops for an extended period - to establish the learning benefits
and identify the associated teaching strategies and resources required," she said.

"If this pilot shows the outcomes DEET is seeking, then the department would
consider a wider roll-out."

For such a low cost, the OLPC laptop offers a rich array of features including
a webcam, microphone, wireless networking, SD memory card slot and built-in speakers.

...

Being open-source, the laptops are open to development by anyone worldwide,
and there is a vast community contributing new features and fixing bugs, which
are then incorporated into future "builds" of the laptop.

In order to produce them for $US150 - the goal is to bring this price down to
$US85 by 2010 - countries would need to order the laptops in one million unit
batches. This poses difficulties for countries with smaller population sizes,
such as Australia.

Srikhanta said a viable solution would be to bring together a group of Asia
Pacific countries for a bulk order which would then be split up and distributed.





-- 
_________________________________
Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services


Web (hosting), security and high-performance computing are the
three areas where Linux has more strength.
      -- Bob Muglia, senior VP in charge of Windows Server development

From stephen at melbpc.org.au  Sat Jan 13 00:26:06 2007
From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley)
Date: Sat Jan 13 00:26:28 2007
Subject: [LINK] Second Life
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070110151236.01ac1b58@tomw.net.au>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070110151236.01ac1b58@tomw.net.au>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070113000051.010201a8@melbpc.org.au>

Hi Tom and all,

"IBM has poured many, many hours into (Second Life) to showcase
what some at the giant US technology company believe could be a
new way of doing business.  It's no gimmick.  Big Blue is serious .."

> At 03:14 PM 10/01/2007, Tom writes:
>
>> Flying Librarians of Oz: What's the fuss about Second Life and what's
>> it got to do with libraries?
>>
>> Second Life is an online virtual community created by its residents and
>> run by Linden Labs. Over two million people registered: Dell Computing,
>> Adidas, Harvard Law School and the United States Congress all have a
>> presence there. ...
>>
>> Kathryn Greenhill, a librarian at Murdoch University Library in Western
>> Australia, co-ordinates the Australian Libraries Building. She will provide
>> a guided tour of the Australian Libraries Building and discuss some of the
>> benefits to librarians of having a Second Life. See <http://secondlife.com/>

Grand Slam tennis that's out of this world
http://www.theage.com.au/news/biztech/grand-slam-tennis-thats-out-of-this-world/2007/01/12/1168105128562.html

Stephen Hutcheon
January 12, 2007

On Monday they'll be flicking a switch that will pump real time centre court action from the Australian Tennis Open - ball-by-ball, point-by-point - into a parallel, virtual universe.

IBM, which provides the IT services and technology backbone for Tennis Australia's Grand Slam tournament, has built a three dimensional facsimile of the Melbourne Tennis Centre complex inside a virtual world called Second Life.

Over the duration of the two week tournament, data will be fed from games in the real Rod Laver Arena into the unreal one, nano seconds after happens.

The feed will come from game-tracking technologies such as the line-calling system HawkEye, PointTracker which plots shots and ball trajectories and Speed Serve which clocks the players' serves.

Computers then crunch the numbers to recreate the positioning of the ball inside the virtual stadium. And avatars, 3-D characters representing the players, can simulate strokes made by Roger Federer or Alicia Molik - or whoever is playing at the time.

And spectators inside this computerised world will have not only the pick of the seats (including the match umpire's), but they can choose to watch the action from a player's perspective.

Forget stump cam. In Second Life you can get inside the heads of the players on the court and see what they see 
 after a fashion.

The Australian Open is IBM's second crack at such a project. As an experimental exercise, the company built a more bare bones set-up for the Wimbledon tournament last June.

"This time we've used Second Life physics engine," said Mr Brad Kasell, Asia-Pacific Manager for IBM Software Group's Emerging Technologies. "So we're plotting the ball's trajectory in a much more refined manner so you can see the trace of the ball far more accurately."

IBM has poured many, many hours into this project to showcase what some at the giant US technology company believe could be a new way of doing business. It's no gimmick. Big Blue is serious about this.

Dr Irving Wladawsky-Berger, IBM's Vice President of Technical Strategy and Innovation, likes to call it v-business - virtual business, or business conducted in a virtual space.

"I believe that highly visual interfaces and virtual worlds will become increasingly important for interacting with applications, communicating with people and engaging in commerce," he wrote in a post on his blog at the start of the year...
--

Cheers, people
Stephen Loosley
Victoria, Australia
aka: "Another Acronym"
(with $250) in Second Life :-)


-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.9/623 - Release Date: 11/01/2007 3:33 PM



From stephen at melbpc.org.au  Sat Jan 13 04:58:50 2007
From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley)
Date: Sat Jan 13 04:59:13 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070112015743.01b6b440@melbpc.org.au>
References: <200701100551.l0A5pGRZ013919@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
	<C1CBC0F1.654%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070112015743.01b6b440@melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070113035750.01020ff0@melbpc.org.au>

>>> Since we are talking about the possibility of EMF changes
>>> in brain activity, maybe the correct word is "infect"
>
> Which, said by a New Zealander regards mobiles, you'd assert, impossible.

With respect, perhaps even affection, certainly not affectation, nor an infection
when writing the above one did forget to add a smiley.

> Cheers,
> Stephen


-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.9/623 - Release Date: 11/01/2007 3:33 PM


From alan at austlii.edu.au  Sat Jan 13 08:50:19 2007
From: alan at austlii.edu.au (Alan L Tyree)
Date: Sat Jan 13 08:51:38 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
In-Reply-To: <961F7894-B308-4D90-8CAB-4EE2EFBC381F@tony-barry.emu.id.au>
References: <C1C92FAB.628%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<5ii0ro$242hd7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
	<20070109124727.5ed65ed2.alan@austlii.edu.au>
	<961F7894-B308-4D90-8CAB-4EE2EFBC381F@tony-barry.emu.id.au>
Message-ID: <20070113085019.2ee9c2f9.alan@austlii.edu.au>

On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 16:31:41 +1100
Antony Barry <tony@tony-barry.emu.id.au> wrote:

> 
> On 09/01/2007, at 12:47 PM, Alan L Tyree wrote:
> 
> > Am I the only one here old enough to remember the Club of Rome?
> 
> Yes. I read their report in draft and commented on it suggesting
> that they should transfer the demand for oil to coal when the oil ran
> out. as a consequence they cut their figure for the lifetime of coal  
> reserves.
> 
> > Of
> > course, those weren't scientific tests, they were computer models.  
> > Like
> > most of the "scientific" predictions of today.
> 
> ALL mathematical based theories are models. Also as soon as you get  
> away from anything trivial there are no exact analytic solutions and  
> you have to go to numerical approximations. This means computers for  
> anything other than the extremely simple. Then to top it all off any  
> set of equations which aren't dead simple are chaotic and after a  
> period of time the prediction will rapidly drift away from what the  
> real world does because of the impossibility of pinning down the  
> initial conditions. The key is doing a sensitivity analysis to have
> a handle on what the likely time into the future the prediction will  
> hold.  Even planetary dynamics are chaotic over a sufficiently long  
> timescale.

I agree with this. However, useful models can be, and are, testable and
tested. The problem with the models used in climate prediction and in
the Club of Rome models is that they either are not testable (like the
Club of Rome) or not tested (like many climate models) or tested and
the results of the testing ignored (like the many climate models that
cannot "predict" the 30 year global cooling of 1940 - 1970).

The Club of Rome models were essentially Malthusian: linear equations
to describe resources, exponential equations to define demand. Results
are exactly what were expected - and by adjusting the parameters you
can account for being off by a few decades or a few centuries.

> 
> The Club of Rome said we could be in strife through a resource  
> crisis, a food crisis or a pollution crisis around the end of the  
> century depending what we did. They checked the sensitivity of the  
> prediction with respect to resources and showed that a doubling(?)
> of reserves just moved the problem back a decade or two because of
> the nature of exponential growth. They refined the model twice since.

Again, with the basic equation structure, doubling, tripling,
you-name-it increase in resources will merely shift the problem.

Any real-world description is going to be modelled by sets of
non-linear differential equations with lots of feedback. Since it is
hard to get a stable set of equations, most models are going to predict
catastrophe. 

Example: bombs are modelled mathematically by equations which describe
ovens!! These are good models that allow us to learn a lot, but it
should not come as a surprise that ovens do not blow up.

My own view is that we should be very skeptical of any model that
cannot predict the past. Further, it is not usually reasonable to adopt
the "precautionary" view of preparing for the worst. To do so is to
condemn millions of (mostly) third world people to a life of degrading
poverty.

Time for me to go back to work.

Alan

> 
> Donella H Meadows, Dennis L Meadows and J?rgen Randers. "Beyond the  
> limits: global collapse or a sustainable future". Earthscan, 1992
> 
> Donella Meadows, J?rgen Randers and Dennis Meadows. "Limits to  
> growth; the 30-year update". Earthscan, 2005.
> 
> Their conclusions overall haven't changed. The timeline has shifted  
> back a few decades not unexpectedly and there is trouble coming a
> few decades ahead. Depending what we do it will be very nasty or
> only somewhat unpleasant for a time.
> 
> Look where we are at now -
> 
> Resources
> ---------
> Crude oil production will probably peak by 2015 and then start to  
> decline with natural gas not to far behind.
> 
> For many metals we are going to lower and lower quality ores.
> 
> Pollution
> ---------
> Global warming
> 
> Rapidly increasing dead zones in the oceans
> 
> Ozone hole not decreasing as expected
> 
> Inexplicable rise in cancers in the developed world
> 
> Food
> ----
> Soil depletion
> 
> Rapid fall in the water tables in key grain growing areas which rely  
> on ground water
> 
> Per capita grain reserves lowest for 35 years
> 
> Loss of crude oil will impact heavily on the green revolution
> 
> 
> The crunch is coming.
> 
> If anybody wants to discuss this could we shift it to unlink.
> 
> While I write this it is 40.8 degrees in my part of Canberra so I'm  
> feeling a bit crabby. It was over 40 yesterday but there is a change  
> coming although the storms appear to have gone to the south of us.
> 
> Tony
> 
> phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
> mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au
> http://tony-barry.emu.id.au
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Alan L Tyree                    http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel: +61 2 4782 2670            Mobile: +61 427 486 206
Fax: +61 2 4782 7092            FWD: 615662

From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au  Sat Jan 13 09:02:48 2007
From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke)
Date: Sat Jan 13 09:03:05 2007
Subject: [LINK] 'ICANN Seeks Public Comment on Whois Privacy'
Message-ID: <p06240802c1cdb5d540af@[192.168.123.167]>

http://www.epic.org/alert/EPIC_Alert_14.01.html

========================================================================
[3] ICANN Seeks Public Comment on Whois Privacy
========================================================================

On November 24, 2006, the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and
Numbers (ICANN) invited public comments on its Preliminary Task Force
Report on WHOIS services. The report highlights two different
approaches to limitations on the public availability of WHOIS data.

The first proposal, supported by the Registrar, Registry, and
Non-Commercial Users Constituencies, removes registrants' mailing
addresses, phone and fax numbers and email addresses from the Whois
database, and requires the use of an "operational point of contact," an
intermediary who would contact the registrant in the case of an issue
with the domain name. WHOIS would continue to publish the registrant's
name and country.

The second proposal, supported by the Intellectual Property and Business
Constituencies, retains the current data fields required under WHOIS,
but allows individuals who can demonstrate reasonable concern that
public access to their contact data would jeopardize their personal
safety or security to substitute contact details of the registrar for
their data.

ICANN's current policy requiring the publication of personal information
violates the privacy rights of registrants and may violate international
laws and the privacy rights in the UN's Universal Declaration of Human
Rights. In its preliminary report, the Task Force agrees that new
mechanisms to restrict some contact data from publication should be
adopted to address privacy concerns.

EPIC has prepared comments for submission to ICANN on the Preliminary
Report. EPIC supports the Operational Point of Contact proposal's
removal of registrants' postal addresses, phone and fax numbers and
email addresses from the Whois database, but pushes for the deletion of
registrants' names and countries of origin from the Whois public
database as well. As explained in Privacy and Human Rights 2005,
concealing actual identity may be critical for political, artistic, and
religious expression on the Internet.

The public comment period runs until January 15, 2007. The task force
will consider the public comments received and prepare a final report
for submission to the Generic Names Supporting Organization Council.

ICANN Launches Public Comments on WHOIS Task Force Report:

       http://www.icann.org/announcements/announcement-24nov06.htm

ICANN Preliminary Task Force Report on WHOIS Services:

      http://gnso.icann.org/issues/whois-privacy/prelim-tf-rpt-22nov06.htm

EPIC's WHOIS Page:

       http://www.epic.org/privacy/whois/

-- 
Roger Clarke                  http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/

Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd      78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA
                    Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916
mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au                http://www.xamax.com.au/

Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng  Australian National University
Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program      University of Hong Kong
Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre      Uni of NSW
From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au  Sat Jan 13 09:22:01 2007
From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au)
Date: Sat Jan 13 09:22:01 2007
Subject: [LINK] Second Life
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070113000051.010201a8@melbpc.org.au>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070110151236.01ac1b58@tomw.net.au>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070113000051.010201a8@melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <45A80A09.3060709@ozemail.com.au>

Great heavens, beware the non-tech journalist, the press release, and 
the impressive number...

>Over the duration of the two week tournament, data will be fed from games in the real Rod Laver Arena into the unreal one, nano seconds after happens.
>
Nanoseconds? My suspension of disbelief just bust a mainspring ...

RC
From cas at taz.net.au  Sat Jan 13 09:36:32 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Sat Jan 13 09:36:30 2007
Subject: [LINK] Second Life
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070113000051.010201a8@melbpc.org.au>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070110151236.01ac1b58@tomw.net.au>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070113000051.010201a8@melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <20070112223631.GZ26390@taz.net.au>

On Sat, Jan 13, 2007 at 12:26:06AM +1100, Stephen Loosley wrote:
> Grand Slam tennis that's out of this world
> http://www.theage.com.au/news/biztech/grand-slam-tennis-thats-out-of-this-world/2007/01/12/1168105128562.html
> 
> Stephen Hutcheon
> January 12, 2007
> 
> [...]
>
> IBM, which provides the IT services and technology backbone for Tennis
> Australia's Grand Slam tournament, has built a three dimensional
> facsimile of the Melbourne Tennis Centre complex inside a virtual
> world called Second Life.
>
> Over the duration of the two week tournament, data will be fed from
> games in the real Rod Laver Arena into the unreal one, nano seconds
> after happens.

wow! this is really valuable science research - it answers the
age-old question of "what could possibly be more boring than watching
live tennis on TV?". 

previously, it had been thought that TV tennis represented a fundamental
limit on boringness (a universal constant, a limit like that of
the speed of light), but now it is known that under exceptional
circumstances, this limit can be exceeded.

"it's like a boredom wormhole", gushed IBM representatives, "it allows
us to concentrate more boredom per unit of time than the universe
ordinarily allows. the implications are staggering".


> IBM has poured many, many hours into this project to showcase what
> some at the giant US technology company believe could be a new way of
> doing business. It's no gimmick. Big Blue is serious about this.

looks like 100% gimmick to me.


craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From cas at taz.net.au  Sat Jan 13 09:40:02 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Sat Jan 13 09:40:10 2007
Subject: [LINK] Second Life
In-Reply-To: <45A7BD63.1030805@lannet.com.au>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070110151236.01ac1b58@tomw.net.au>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070113000051.010201a8@melbpc.org.au>
	<45A7BD63.1030805@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070112224002.GA26390@taz.net.au>

On Sat, Jan 13, 2007 at 03:54:59AM +1100, Howard Lowndes wrote:
> Someone has obviously smelt some dollars, but I don't see where...

consumption frenzy. second life is one enormous billboard entangled with
bogus "community".

as Neal Stephenson put it when describing "The Metaverse" in his
novel Snowcrash "it's like Las Vegas without the limits of finance or
physics".

craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Sat Jan 13 10:50:48 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Sat Jan 13 10:53:22 2007
Subject: [LINK] Second Life
In-Reply-To: <45A81C15.7050309@lannet.com.au>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070110151236.01ac1b58@tomw.net.au>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070113000051.010201a8@melbpc.org.au>
	<45A80A09.3060709@ozemail.com.au> <45A81C15.7050309@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$25p98i@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 10:39 AM 13/01/2007, Howard Lowndes wrote:
>"Nano" - the buzzword that journos have just learned...but they 
>don't say just how many giga-nanoseconds.

I just spewed my cornflakes!


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Sat Jan 13 11:46:09 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Sat Jan 13 11:48:32 2007
Subject: [LINK] electromagnetic fields effect brain activity
Message-ID: <C1CE7701.67A%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>

Alan wrote:

> Am I the only one here old enough to remember the Club of Rome?

Actually, I think there were a couple of Club-of-Rome reports.

The first proved to be fairly inaccurate in its predictions about oil
reserves, and they didn't adequately take into account the successes of
exploration once prices escalated and the money began to roll.

I can't remember all the details now. It was a long time ago.


-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458

From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Sat Jan 13 12:01:58 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Sat Jan 13 12:04:24 2007
Subject: [LINK] Double Blind Trials (Was to do with EMF)
In-Reply-To: <200701120733.l0C7WxhJ012454@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <C1CE7AB6.67B%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>

Kim writes re placebo/blind trials
> 
> I hadn't thought about it quite like that.  Do you think then, that
> the placebo effect is just a virtual effect for the purposes of drug
> testing and not something that's really happening at all?

Double blind trials are used in all sorts of scientific research, most of
which has no placebo at all.

For instance, in-vitro research on cells in the laboratory: in-vivo research
with mice and other animals.  Blinding (single and double) is even used in
epidemiology to avoid investigator-bias in asking questions and recording
answers (not much unfortunately).

The main problem with the placebo effect is that it has been popularised and
promoted by alternate medicine practitioners as if it were something real.

 I haven't looked at the evidence recently, but the last time I looked, a
few years ago, the scientists researching the phenomenon couldn't agree
whether there were real effects or not. Some thought it was entirely
psychological; others said they had found real changes.

Unfortunately most of these trials weren't blind, so it may have been their
own prejudices in action (either way).

That's the problem when you are dealing with humans.  I don't think anyone
disputes that most of the placebo outcomes are positive, but whether they
are physically positive, or mentally positive is the question.

And with complementary medicine, you can also question whether paying
hundreds of dollars for a sugar pill, or for a million-times-diluted
tea-tree-oil enema is entirely justified.

[Did anyone see Hugh McKay's piece in Saturday Sydney Morning Herald?  He
writes about the value of Complimentary Medicine [sic] and placebo.  I think
he must be lurking on Link.  It was right-on.]


-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458


From eleanor at pacific.net.au  Sat Jan 13 12:29:07 2007
From: eleanor at pacific.net.au (Eleanor Lister)
Date: Sat Jan 13 12:29:18 2007
Subject: [LINK] Second Life
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070113000051.010201a8@melbpc.org.au>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070110151236.01ac1b58@tomw.net.au>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070113000051.010201a8@melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <45A835E3.9000403@pacific.net.au>

Stephen Loosley wrote:
> Hi Tom and all,
>
> "IBM has poured many, many hours into (Second Life) to showcase
> what some at the giant US technology company believe could be a
> new way of doing business.  It's no gimmick.  Big Blue is serious .."
>   

well, it's real enough for the IRS to be interested:
http://biz.yahoo.com/fool/061016/116103313134.html?.v=2

> IRS to Tax Your Second Life?
> Monday October 16, 5:12 pm ET
> By Tim Beyers -- How real is the virtual world? Real enough that the
> IRS may want a piece of the digital action. Congressional economists
> are beginning to weigh the question of how to tax digital assets
> amassed in multiplayer online games such as /World of Warcraft/ and
> /Second Life/, Reuters reports.
>
>
> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12eg13ou4/M=544710.9091841.10760352.4671197/D=fin/S=7811764:LREC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1168657681/A=4299695/R=0/SIG=12i3jqfer/*http://www.fool.com/shop/newsletters/18/ecap.htm?cid=599&source=esayhobox3750071>
>
>
> The timing couldn't be better for the Feds. /Second Life/, for
> example, has already grown its virtual economy to the equivalent of a
> $150 million gross domestic product. Its 800,000 or so "residents"
> exchange as much as $500,000 in real money daily.
>

i think those of us with even a nodding acquaintance with sci-fi
literature would have seen the ideas people have about creating a "real"
world that is infinitely mutable, where everyone is young and good
looking and paupers and princes can exchange positions with the
application of wit, or lack of it.

IBM is just investing in one of the logical steps that need to be taken
to weld reality and fantasy together ... tennis could be much improved
if you can modify or replace the Avatars used ... like John Howard in a
tennis skirt vs Godzilla in a lycra bodysuit. :)

also a good game engine means that you can have massive compression
ratios, because you only need to store the symbolic movements and sounds
of a story, rather than an actual movie ... and it can be interactive.

imagine Lord of the Rings where you're not one of the headline acts, so
the main plotline doesn't alter, but you can be a person living in that
world, and take part in it as it changes around you ... i smell money in
this, and so does IBM.

you can even have movies where you change the avatars so that Angelina
Jolie can actually act.

regards,
    EL

------------
Eleanor Ashley Lister
South Sydney Greens
http://ssg.nsw.greens.org.au
webmistress@ssg.nsw.greens.org.au

From link at todd.inoz.com  Sat Jan 13 13:33:44 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Sat Jan 13 13:40:54 2007
Subject: [LINK] Second Life
In-Reply-To: <45A835E3.9000403@pacific.net.au>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070110151236.01ac1b58@tomw.net.au>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070113000051.010201a8@melbpc.org.au>
	<45A835E3.9000403@pacific.net.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070113133221.030b33b8@wheresmymailserver.com>


>imagine Lord of the Rings where you're not one of the headline acts, so
>the main plotline doesn't alter, but you can be a person living in that
>world, and take part in it as it changes around you ... i smell money in
>this, and so does IBM.

Peter Jackson would be happy with that!  Then he could have greater 
royalties, stop suing New LIne Films and make the next story which he's 
been banned from doing!

Maybe Jackson will move film making into Second Life and set up the first 
REAL(?) film studios there!

Imagine a block buster Second Life film in value equal to the $1 billion 
odd Lord of the Rings took in !!


From link at todd.inoz.com  Sat Jan 13 13:30:41 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Sat Jan 13 13:41:09 2007
Subject: [LINK] Second Life
In-Reply-To: <5ii0ro$25p98i@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070110151236.01ac1b58@tomw.net.au>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070113000051.010201a8@melbpc.org.au>
	<45A80A09.3060709@ozemail.com.au> <45A81C15.7050309@lannet.com.au>
	<5ii0ro$25p98i@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070113132959.030c0450@wheresmymailserver.com>

At 10:50 AM 13/01/2007, Jan Whitaker wrote:
>At 10:39 AM 13/01/2007, Howard Lowndes wrote:
>>"Nano" - the buzzword that journos have just learned...but they don't say 
>>just how many giga-nanoseconds.
>
>I just spewed my cornflakes!

In a terra-nano-second or did it take longer?

Can we see it in Second Life please?

Maybe in slow motion?

Take each terra-nano-second and make it say 5 milli seconds?

What you think that's too long?  But time in Second Life is not measured in 
the same sense as real life!


From fpilcher at netspeed.com.au  Sat Jan 13 17:35:03 2007
From: fpilcher at netspeed.com.au (Fred Pilcher)
Date: Sat Jan 13 17:36:33 2007
Subject: [LINK] World Domination 201
In-Reply-To: <45A7701E.7030108@praxis.com.au>
References: <45A7701E.7030108@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <200701131735.04863.fpilcher@netspeed.com.au>

Rick wrote:
> Has anyone tried Freespire? I am inspired to do so. It might just be the
> killer Debian distro. One would have to be an ultra-purist to forgo these
> 20 proprietary components and use a substandard multimedia desktop. But who
> am I to judge?

I had a brief look at it. I've been using SLED 10 and Simply Mepis 6 and, by 
comparison (on an admittedly brief look), Freespire seemed pretty ordinary by 
comparison.

That's probably unfair. I agree with the premise of the article and 
functionally, Freespire may well have the goods. If so, I wish it every 
success, it's just not very attractive by comparison.

Gods - did I say that? :-( 

Fred
From fpilcher at netspeed.com.au  Sat Jan 13 17:35:03 2007
From: fpilcher at netspeed.com.au (Fred Pilcher)
Date: Sat Jan 13 17:36:46 2007
Subject: [LINK] World Domination 201
In-Reply-To: <45A7701E.7030108@praxis.com.au>
References: <45A7701E.7030108@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <200701131735.04863.fpilcher@netspeed.com.au>

Rick wrote:
> Has anyone tried Freespire? I am inspired to do so. It might just be the
> killer Debian distro. One would have to be an ultra-purist to forgo these
> 20 proprietary components and use a substandard multimedia desktop. But who
> am I to judge?

I had a brief look at it. I've been using SLED 10 and Simply Mepis 6 and, by 
comparison (on an admittedly brief look), Freespire seemed pretty ordinary by 
comparison.

That's probably unfair. I agree with the premise of the article and 
functionally, Freespire may well have the goods. If so, I wish it every 
success, it's just not very attractive by comparison.

Gods - did I say that? :-( 

Fred
From cas at taz.net.au  Sat Jan 13 18:20:26 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Sat Jan 13 18:20:29 2007
Subject: [LINK] World Domination 201
In-Reply-To: <45A7701E.7030108@praxis.com.au>
References: <45A7701E.7030108@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070113072026.GB26390@taz.net.au>

On Fri, Jan 12, 2007 at 10:25:18PM +1100, Rick Welykochy wrote:
> Fred Pilcher wrote:
> 
> > An interesting treatise on the potential of Linux to take over the
> > world by 2008.
> > http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/world-domination/world-domination-201.html#id247970

esr's an interesting writer, but you have to take what he says with a very
large grain of salt.

i've met both esr and rms...and while esr is much nicer in person
and has good social skills (which rms most definitely does not -
understatement of the year) i have a lot more respect for rms and his
principles. i like esr, but you've got to remember he's a gun-totin'
loony libertarian, which is why he's into "open source" rather than that
socialist "free software" stuff.


> The list of proprietary pieces to the puzzle that can make Linux a
> competitive and killer desktop is here:
>
> http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/Summary_of_Proprietary_Components

1. WMV

i run debian and haven't had any difficulty playing wmv files for over
2 years. i don't even remember when it started working, i just tried it
one day and assumed it wouldn't - but was surprised when it did.

2. quicktime

there may still be one or two QT codecs that dont work. dunno, i haven't
had a problem with quicktime files for years.

3. mp3.

WTF? mp3 has been supported for years. there are some patent problems
in countries that acknowledge software patents AND where the patent has
been applied for, but i don't think anyone actually pays ANY attention
to that.

4. realplayer and helix have been available for years.

5. java.  ditto.  and it has been open-sourced now, just a month or so ago.

6. macromedia flash.  there's an installer package for the macromedia flash,
or there's a few (second-rate, so far) free-software clones.

7. fonts. there are more than enough free fonts for almost any
conceivable need. and anyone who really needs proprietary fonts can buy
and install them just as they would on windows or mac.

8. gizmo? big deal. it's not as if there aren't dozens of free VOIP
protocols and programs. anyway, you're better off with an open protocol
than locked in with a proprietary one.

9. agere modem drivers.  who cares?  modems are cheap.  there are many to
choose from which work perfectly with linux.

10. ATI drivers. ditto for video cards. also, it is rumoured that AMD
may soon open-source the driver or provide full specs for free software
developers.

11., 12., 13: modem drivers.  ditto again.

14. QEMU. huh? it's open source. and there are several other FOSS
alternatives available too, e.g. xen.

15, 16: another modem driver and a wifi driver: again, there's lots of
hardware that works perfectly with linux.

17.  nvidia drivers.  easily available for any linux distro.    there's also a
project to write a complete open source driver.

18., 19, 20.  more modem and wireless drivers.  same response.



running this multimedia stuff is not hard on any modern linux distro.
the (slightly) hard bit is not having web sites able to run them without
your permission. you need to install the NoScript, AdBlock Plus, and
Flashblock plugins - so that YOU control which sites are allowed to run
this stuff, and when.

if this is all they can come up with, it looks like they're trying very
hard to find some competitive advantage.


> There are only 20 such pieces, i.e. less than 1% of the entire
> Freespire distro.  And with those pieces, Freespire can now compete
> for the first time with Windows and Mac OS X. And of course, one can
> pruchase Linspire if full support is required.

and of course, it's all available for other distros too.


> Has anyone tried Freespire? I am inspired to do so. It might just be
> the killer Debian distro. One would have to be an ultra-purist to
> forgo these 20 proprietary components and use a substandard multimedia
> desktop. But who am I to judge?

from what i've seen, you're better off with ubuntu.  or debian itself.

craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From brendansweb at optusnet.com.au  Sat Jan 13 21:19:48 2007
From: brendansweb at optusnet.com.au (Brendan Scott)
Date: Sat Jan 13 21:08:36 2007
Subject: [LINK] World Domination 201
In-Reply-To: <20070113072026.GB26390@taz.net.au>
References: <45A7701E.7030108@praxis.com.au>
	<20070113072026.GB26390@taz.net.au>
Message-ID: <45A8B244.6020601@optusnet.com.au>

Craig Sanders wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 12, 2007 at 10:25:18PM +1100, Rick Welykochy wrote:
>> Fred Pilcher wrote:
>>
>>> An interesting treatise on the potential of Linux to take over the
>>> world by 2008.
>>> http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/world-domination/world-domination-201.html#id247970
> 
> esr's an interesting writer, but you have to take what he says with a very
> large grain of salt.
> 
> i've met both esr and rms...and while esr is much nicer in person
> and has good social skills (which rms most definitely does not -
> understatement of the year) i have a lot more respect for rms and his
> principles. i like esr, but you've got to remember he's a gun-totin'
> loony libertarian, which is why he's into "open source" rather than that
> socialist "free software" stuff.
> 
> 
>> The list of proprietary pieces to the puzzle that can make Linux a
>> competitive and killer desktop is here:

[]

> running this multimedia stuff is not hard on any modern linux distro.
> the (slightly) hard bit is not having web sites able to run them without
> your permission. you need to install the NoScript, AdBlock Plus, and
> Flashblock plugins - so that YOU control which sites are allowed to run
> this stuff, and when.
> 
> if this is all they can come up with, it looks like they're trying very
> hard to find some competitive advantage.

I think the point is not whether it is doable, but whether it can be preloaded.  Distros which are ideologically pure don't and won't support preloading of closed components.

His underlying thesis is that multimedia will drive the 64 bit platform.  I am not convinced by this.  
 
 
Brendan 

From rick at praxis.com.au  Sat Jan 13 21:51:25 2007
From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Sat Jan 13 21:51:55 2007
Subject: [LINK] World Domination 201
In-Reply-To: <20070113072026.GB26390@taz.net.au>
References: <45A7701E.7030108@praxis.com.au>
	<20070113072026.GB26390@taz.net.au>
Message-ID: <45A8B9AD.3010201@praxis.com.au>

Craig Sanders wrote:

> 1. WMV
> 
> i run debian and haven't had any difficulty playing wmv files for over
> 2 years. i don't even remember when it started working, i just tried it
> one day and assumed it wouldn't - but was surprised when it did.
> 
> 2. quicktime
> 
> there may still be one or two QT codecs that dont work. dunno, i haven't
> had a problem with quicktime files for years.
[snip]

The point made both by Raymond and the Linspire site is that licences
are required for these items to be *distributed*. We are talking what is
legal and defensible in court here, not what is done by other distros,
perhaps on the sly.

A distro cannot become a killer in the marketplace if there are any
legal licencing snags tied to it.

Yes yes, I have manually downloaded and installed many of the media
players mentioned in that list. Yes yes they work. But Joe Sixpack
and his Mom and Dad simply ain't gonna do that. Let alone start fiddling
with codecs and tweeking things at the shell level until they work.
We are talking legally distributable "in the box" multimedia: drop in the
install CD and you are up & running in 5 minutes.

Remember: The Killer OS will not require *any* work to be done in the
shell. 99.9% of computer owners do not know what the shell is and are scared
shitless when they find out. I speak from my own experience with heaps
of clients.

> and of course, it's all available for other distros too.

The licences are not, are they? Linspire has paid licencing fees to be allowed
to distribute these pieces of technology. Can you give an example of another
distro that is doing that? i.e legally distributing an MP3 player or
Quicktime?

BTW: Linspire publishes links to all the distribution licences for these
patented technologies on its website. If you have a read, you will find
(I presume here) with all of them that neither you nor I nor anyone is allowed
to package up Wonderful Proprietary Media Player X and distribute it,
even though you may download it for your own use. That is the nature of
the difference between Linspire and other Linux distros.


>>Has anyone tried Freespire? I am inspired to do so. It might just be
>>the killer Debian distro. One would have to be an ultra-purist to
>>forgo these 20 proprietary components and use a substandard multimedia
>>desktop. But who am I to judge?
> 
> 
> from what i've seen, you're better off with ubuntu.  or debian itself.

I burned a Freespire disk last night and gave it a test drive. Worked
fine "out of the box" on a Sony Vaio; everything just worked. About 10 x easier
to install than Win XP and 10 X faster to install as well. The install CD can be
used "Live" if you wish to road test it.

Don't get me wrong. I use Debian for most projects I work on now, and wouldn't
bother with much else except for Ubuntu. Probably for similar reasons to yours,
Craig.

But when the topic is the Killer O/S for 2008, one does have to look for something
that installs out of the box in minutes and is real easy to use. And one that
legally supports all the multi-media types out there.

There is a large gap between accidentally finding out that something happens
to work on a distro (on legally shakey grounds) and having a rock-solid right
to distribute patented / protected IP. That's the ugly way of the capitalist
system.

BTW: Is raymond wrong when he states in his article that MP3 support has had
to be withdrawn from (some?) Linux distros, and other patented bits and pieces
as well?

cheers
rickw



-- 
_________________________________
Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services

Almost every man wastes part of his life attempting to display qualities
which he does not possess.
      -- Samuel Johnson
From stephen at melbpc.org.au  Sun Jan 14 02:42:55 2007
From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley)
Date: Sun Jan 14 02:43:23 2007
Subject: [LINK] E-Learning Industry Funding 
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070114020917.01b6c998@melbpc.org.au>

? Commonwealth of Australia 2007

E-Learning for Industry:

2007 Industry Funding 

Funding opportunities for industry groups and businesses that are interested in e-learning have opened!

http://industry.flexiblelearning.net.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=47&Itemid=45

The national training system's e-learning strategy, the Australian Flexible Learning Framework, a collaboration between the Australian Government and all states and territories, has allocated AUD 600,000 to fund approximately 13 industry e-learning demonstrations in 2007.

The selected Industry e-learning demonstrations will be practical e-learning solutions to workforce development needs.

This year the application process is fully online for all of the funding categories.. 

The online application process will be accessible from Monday 19 February 2007.  Online applications will close at 9am AEST on Wednesday 4 April 2007.

The sample funding contract for the 2007 Industry e-learning demonstrations can be obtained by emailing kerry.manikis at cit.act.edu.au (due to spam please replace the 'at' with @ and remove spaces).

Examples of the industry e-learning demonstrations funded in 2005 can be found on this website under Business e-learning examples. 

http://industry.flexiblelearning.net.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=47


Last Updated ( Wednesday, 10 January 2007 ) 
? Commonwealth of Australia 2007
--

brevity-snipped
Stephen Loosley
Victoria, Australia


-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.10/624 - Release Date: 12/01/2007 2:04 PM



From stephen at melbpc.org.au  Sun Jan 14 03:10:11 2007
From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley)
Date: Sun Jan 14 03:10:42 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070114025707.01021110@melbpc.org.au>

$100 laptop could sell to public 
By Darren Waters (snipped)
Technology editor, BBC News website, Las Vegas 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6246989.stm


The backers of the One Laptop Per Child project are looking at the possibility of selling the machine to the public. 

One idea would be for customers to have to buy two laptops at once - with the second going to the developing world. 

Five million of the laptops will be delivered to developing nations this summer, in one of the most ambitious educational exercises ever undertaken. 

Michalis Bletsas, chief connectivity officer for the project, said eBay could be a partner to sell the laptop. 

"If we started selling the laptop now, we would do very good business," Mr Bletsas, speaking at the Consumer Electronics Show, told BBC News. 

"But our focus right now is on the launch in the developing world." ..

The eventual aim is to sell the machine to developing countries for $100 but the current cost of the machine is about $150. 

The first countries to sign up to buying the machine, which is officially dubbed XO, include Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Nigeria, Libya, Pakistan and Thailand. 

The XO's software has been designed to work specifically in an educational context. It has built-in wireless networking and video conferencing so that groups of children can work together. 

The project is also working to ensure that children using the laptop around the world can be in contact. 

The OLPC project is working with Google who will act as "the glue to bind all these kids together". 

The machine is close to a final design

Google will also help the children publish their work on the internet so that the world can observe the "fruits of their labour", said Mr Bletsas. 

He said that the hope was to put the machine on sale to the general public "sometime next year". 

Mr Bletsas said that a philanthropic organisation would be formed to organise the orders and delivery of the laptops. 

"It's much more difficult to do this than making the laptop," he said. 

The aim is to connect the buyer of the laptop with the child in the developing world who receives the machine. 

"They will get the e-mail address of the kid in the developing world that they have, in effect, sponsored." 

Mr Bletsas was speaking amidst the festival of consumerism taking place on the show floor of CES. 
--

Cheers people
Stephen Loosley
Victoria, Astralia


-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.10/624 - Release Date: 12/01/2007 2:04 PM


From stephen at melbpc.org.au  Sun Jan 14 03:55:28 2007
From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley)
Date: Sun Jan 14 03:55:55 2007
Subject: [LINK] 'games transcend languages and cultures'
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070114033846.01b6c7e0@melbpc.org.au>

WebProNews 
January 13, 2007
http://www.WebProNews.com

The Year Of The Online Game?
Jason Lee Miller | Staff Writer

2005 was the year of the social network. In 2006, online video 
was the chief cause of acquisition hysteria. Will 2007 be the year 
of the online gaming site? Why not? Where else do you find an 
audience so devoted they'll forfeit sleep and food? A growing 
audience that is loyal, habitual, and young seems ripe for the 
picking.

Blizzard Entertainment announced yesterday that World of Warcraft, 
the subscription-based online battle so compelling to gamers all 
over the world that people have died of exhaustion, has surpassed
eight million users: 

Two million in the US, 1.5 million in Europe, and 3.5 million in China.

In Australia, the mania is for Runescape, which holds a 7.23 
percent market share of gaming site visitors. Hitwise's Sandra 
Hanchard writes that, in this region of the world (Asia-Pacific 
region), more than one in five visits in the entertainment category
visits a gaming site. 

Well, it's closer to a quarter: 23.86 percent of visits were to
online gaming sites, dwarfing multimedia sites' 12.12 percent,
and movies' 5.92 percent.  

"While we've seen the recent explosive growth of YouTube and 
video sharing," says Hanchard, "it would seem that the online 
Games industry is deserving of more attention by marketers and 
advertisers,  given its prominence in site visits." 

.. the Internet is evolving rapidly as a world market, and games
transcend languages and cultures.
--

Cheers all ..
Stephen Loosley
Melbourne, Australia


-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.10/624 - Release Date: 12/01/2007 2:04 PM


From alan at austlii.edu.au  Sun Jan 14 06:50:23 2007
From: alan at austlii.edu.au (Alan L Tyree)
Date: Sun Jan 14 06:51:44 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
Message-ID: <20070114065023.6468b500.alan@austlii.edu.au>

Hi Linkers,
I'm looking for some help here. I'm writing a submission to ASIC on the
review of the EFT Code of Conduct. One of the things that Industry has
been pushing for is to make consumers liable for losses caused by
computers infected with malware.

The argument I wish to make is that consumers are hopelessly ill
equipped to secure their (Windows) computers. Can someone point me to
real research/statistics about the way that people *actually* run their
computers?

Many thanks,
Alan

-- 
Alan L Tyree                    http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel: +61 2 4782 2670            Mobile: +61 427 486 206
Fax: +61 2 4782 7092            FWD: 615662
From kim.holburn at gmail.com  Sun Jan 14 07:31:29 2007
From: kim.holburn at gmail.com (Kim Holburn)
Date: Sun Jan 14 07:31:59 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <20070114065023.6468b500.alan@austlii.edu.au>
References: <20070114065023.6468b500.alan@austlii.edu.au>
Message-ID: <42203EA2-5FFF-4318-B91E-9895F52AEB73@gmail.com>

There was a good article recently in NYTimes (login required I think):

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/07/technology/07net.html
> Attack of the Zombie Computers Is Growing Threat

> In their persistent quest to breach the Internet?s defenses, the  
> bad guys are honing their weapons and increasing their firepower.
>
> With growing sophistication, they are taking advantage of programs  
> that secretly install themselves on thousands or even millions of  
> personal computers, band these computers together into an unwitting  
> army of zombies, and use the collective power of the dragooned  
> network to commit Internet crimes.
>
> These systems, called botnets, are being blamed for the huge spike  
> in spam that bedeviled the Internet in recent months, as well as  
> fraud and data theft.
>
> Security researchers have been concerned about botnets for some  
> time because they automate and amplify the effects of viruses and  
> other malicious programs.
>
> What is new is the vastly escalating scale of the problem ? and the  
> precision with which some of the programs can scan computers for  
> specific information, like corporate and personal data, to drain  
> money from online bank accounts and stock brokerages.


> ?It represents a threat but it?s one that is hard to explain,? said  
> David J. Farber, a Carnegie Mellon computer scientist who was an  
> Internet pioneer. ?It?s an insidious threat, and what worries me is  
> that the scope of the problem is still not clear to most people.?  
> Referring to Windows computers, he added, ?The popular machines are  
> so easy to penetrate, and that?s scary.?

> Sensor information collected by his company is now able to identify  
> more than 250,000 new botnet infections daily, Mr. Wesson said.
>
> ?We are losing this war badly,? he said. ?Even the vendors  
> understand that we are losing the war.?
>
> According to the annual intelligence report of MessageLabs, a New  
> York-based computer security firm, more than 80 percent of all spam  
> now originates from botnets. Last month, for the first time ever, a  
> single Internet service provider generated more than one billion  
> spam e-mail messages in a 24-hour period, according to a ranking  
> system maintained by Trend Micro, the computer security firm. That  
> indicated that machines of the service providers? customers had  
> been woven into a giant network, with a single control point using  
> them to pump out spam.


> Serry Winkler, a sales representative in Denver, said that she had  
> turned off the network-security software provided by her Internet  
> service provider because it slowed performance to a crawl on her  
> PC, which was running Windows 98. A few months ago four sheriff?s  
> deputies pounded on her apartment door to confiscate the PC, which  
> they said was being used to order goods from Sears with a stolen  
> credit card. The computer, it turned out, had been commandeered by  
> an intruder who was using it remotely.
>
> ?I?m a middle-aged single woman living here for six years,? she  
> said. ?Do I sound like a terrorist??
>
> She is now planning to buy a more up-to-date PC, she said.


On 2007/Jan/13, at 8:50 PM, Alan L Tyree wrote:

> Hi Linkers,
> I'm looking for some help here. I'm writing a submission to ASIC on  
> the
> review of the EFT Code of Conduct. One of the things that Industry has
> been pushing for is to make consumers liable for losses caused by
> computers infected with malware.
>
> The argument I wish to make is that consumers are hopelessly ill
> equipped to secure their (Windows) computers. Can someone point me to
> real research/statistics about the way that people *actually* run  
> their
> computers?
>
> Many thanks,
> Alan
>
> -- 
> Alan L Tyree                    http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
> Tel: +61 2 4782 2670            Mobile: +61 427 486 206
> Fax: +61 2 4782 7092            FWD: 615662
> _______________________________________________
> Link mailing list
> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au
> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link

--
Kim Holburn
IT Network & Security Consultant
Ph: +39 06 855 4294  M: +39 3342707610
mailto:kim@holburn.net  aim://kimholburn
skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request

Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny.
                           -- Lloyd Biggle, Jr. Analog, Apr 1961




From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Sun Jan 14 09:32:50 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Sun Jan 14 09:35:10 2007
Subject: [LINK] Second Life
In-Reply-To: <200701131954.l0DJsNV6024178@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <C1CFA941.681%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>

Wouldn't it be nice if they put all that development money into a project
that might give a few billion kids in the Third World a First Life.


-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458


From sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au  Sun Jan 14 09:37:22 2007
From: sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au (steve jenkin)
Date: Sun Jan 14 09:42:44 2007
Subject: [LINK] Research Into Procrastination Shows Surprising Findings
In-Reply-To: <45A9491A.8040707@lannet.com.au>
References: <45A9491A.8040707@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <45A95F22.8050101@canb.auug.org.au>

Howard Lowndes wrote on 14/1/07 8:03 AM:
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/01/070110090851.htm
>
> "Science Daily ? A University of Calgary professor in the Haskayne
> School of Business has recently published his magnum opus on the
> subject of procrastination -- and it's only taken him 10 years."
>
Howard,
Thanks - loved it :-)

I tracked down the U-Calgary press release.  Added another URL as well
(below)
I'm amazed at two things done by the reporters: [perhaps Steward Fist
would comment]

- The UC press release is not cited/linked on the page.
- The similarity of the article constructed. [but could be plagiarism or
a common 'wire story']

cheers
sj

<http://www.ucalgary.ca/news/january2007/procrastination-release/>
<http://www.null-hypothesis.co.uk/article/609>
<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/01/070110090851.htm>


-- 
Steve Jenkin, Info Tech, Systems and Design Specialist.
0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915)
PO Box 48, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA

sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au http://www.canb.auug.org.au/~sjenkin

From ivan at itrundle.com  Sun Jan 14 10:10:36 2007
From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle)
Date: Sun Jan 14 10:10:53 2007
Subject: [LINK] Research Into Procrastination Shows Surprising Findings
In-Reply-To: <45A95F22.8050101@canb.auug.org.au>
References: <45A9491A.8040707@lannet.com.au>
	<45A95F22.8050101@canb.auug.org.au>
Message-ID: <D9C9600A-D784-4C84-B7AC-A5C938F30FC1@itrundle.com>

I saw the paper published last week, but didn't get around to  
mentioning it to Linkers...

iT

On 14/01/2007, at 9:37 AM, steve jenkin wrote:

> Howard Lowndes wrote on 14/1/07 8:03 AM:
>> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/01/070110090851.htm
>>
>> "Science Daily ? A University of Calgary professor in the Haskayne
>> School of Business has recently published his magnum opus on the
>> subject of procrastination -- and it's only taken him 10 years."
>>
> Howard,
> Thanks - loved it :-)
>
> I tracked down the U-Calgary press release.  Added another URL as well
> (below)
> I'm amazed at two things done by the reporters: [perhaps Steward Fist
> would comment]
>
> - The UC press release is not cited/linked on the page.
> - The similarity of the article constructed. [but could be  
> plagiarism or
> a common 'wire story']
>
> cheers
> sj
>
> <http://www.ucalgary.ca/news/january2007/procrastination-release/>
> <http://www.null-hypothesis.co.uk/article/609>
> <http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/01/070110090851.htm>
>
>
> -- 
> Steve Jenkin, Info Tech, Systems and Design Specialist.
> 0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915)
> PO Box 48, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA
>
> sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au http://www.canb.auug.org.au/~sjenkin
>
> _______________________________________________
> Link mailing list
> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au
> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link
>
> !DSPAM:1009,45a960d7867195209328925!
>
>

--
Ivan Trundle
http://itrundle.com ivan@itrundle.com
ph: +61 (0)418 244 259 fx: +61 (0)2 6286 8742
skype: callto://ivanovitchk



From kauer at biplane.com.au  Sun Jan 14 10:35:12 2007
From: kauer at biplane.com.au (Karl Auer)
Date: Sun Jan 14 10:36:18 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070114025707.01021110@melbpc.org.au>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070114025707.01021110@melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <1168731313.17898.13.camel@localhost.localdomain>

If this is true:
> The eventual aim is to sell the machine to developing countries for
> $100 but the current cost of the machine is about $150.

... then the things will be being offered for sale (by their purchasers
in developing countries) for 149.99 inside about four seconds of
delivery.

Regards, K.

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/~kauer/                  +61-428-957160 (mob)

From sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au  Sun Jan 14 11:22:58 2007
From: sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au (steve jenkin)
Date: Sun Jan 14 11:28:24 2007
Subject: [LINK] Vista Casts A Pall On PC Gaming
In-Reply-To: <45A435E6.7000204@praxis.com.au>
References: <20070110080011.s9dunpi4v0g00g8k@webmail.iimetro.com.au>	<45A42567.4020602@ramin.com.au>	<45A429CA.3090204@lannet.com.au>
	<45A435E6.7000204@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <45A977E2.7070500@canb.auug.org.au>

Rick Welykochy wrote on 10/1/07 11:40 AM:
> Howard Lowndes wrote:
>
>> Marghanita da Cruz wrote:
>>> IMHO your conclusion is correct but not your assessment of Windows. 
>>> ... acknowledge the contribution
>> "contribution" - do you mean as in viruses, spam, etc...?
>
> Howard is right. Microsoft has contributed zero in the advancement of
> computing science and IT innovation. 
Their patent portfolio would disagree with you...
They've done printing via direct printer drivers better than anyone -
but it's a false model. The definitive answer is to use a standard
definitive printer language - like PDF or postscript.

They've never practised (perhaps even understood) the basic good
software engineering practices used by all the large, successful OSS
projects - Linux, Apache, Samba, Perl/Python/PHP, gcc, ...
> They have actually set the bar and expectations of how computers
> should perform so low that their software can
> be considered "toy". 
They reset consumer expectations that 'software failed' (often).
There is NO justification for systems software to fail if the hardware
is still running.

Microsoft would've been run out of town by its users if the computing
academic/engineering had ever bothered to lay down the minimum
requirements of an "Operating System" (like 'keep operating', 'maintain
integrity', ...)
Consumers would've successfully challenged them in the ACCC.

The absolute mess we have now is not just MSFT's fault, but the
professional computing and industry associations that have failed to
setup and define (minimum) standards.
> If you do the research you will find that practically anything of
> usefullness that Microsoft sells has been either ripped off
> (Lotus 1-2-3 ==> Excel), adapted (GUI as but one example) or
> assimilated Borg-style (Mosaic ==> IE).
>
> Need some concrete examples of their failure to innovate?
Microsoft are the World's Best marketers. Seriously. They should be
applauded for that.
And you are *so* correct saying they don't innovate - always follow.

They've always tried to focus on the user - but their version is 'shiny
bits', 'sizzle' and 'bells and whistles', rather than good UI and solid,
useful product.

> <snip>

> Cynic, moi?
No :-)
>
>
> cheers
> rickw
>
>


-- 
Steve Jenkin, Info Tech, Systems and Design Specialist.
0412 786 915 (+61 412 786 915)
PO Box 48, Kippax ACT 2615, AUSTRALIA

sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au http://www.canb.auug.org.au/~sjenkin

From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au  Sun Jan 14 11:38:46 2007
From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke)
Date: Sun Jan 14 11:50:42 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <20070114065023.6468b500.alan@austlii.edu.au>
References: <20070114065023.6468b500.alan@austlii.edu.au>
Message-ID: <p06240817c1cf0ab82630@[192.168.123.167]>

G'day Alan

At 6:50 +1100 14/1/07, Alan L Tyree wrote:
>I'm looking for some help here. I'm writing a submission to ASIC on the
>review of the EFT Code of Conduct. One of the things that Industry has
>been pushing for is to make consumers liable for losses caused by
>computers infected with malware.
>The argument I wish to make is that consumers are hopelessly ill
>equipped to secure their (Windows) computers. Can someone point me to
>real research/statistics about the way that people *actually* run their
>computers?

It's not what you asked for, but ...

I did some expert evidence a little while back which required me to 
catalogue the ways in which 'accesses to inappropriate sites' and 
'storage of inappropriate images' might occur, without the intention 
of a device's user, and even without their knowledge.  The context 
was alleged unfair dismissal.

The material could be turned to the purpose of demonstrating that:
(1)  consumers' computers are not under consumers' control
(2)  it is not practicable for consumers to exercise control

The first few parts are of marginal relevance to the current context.

This section has some relevance but would need to be cut down:
http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/II/OffIm0511.html#AUC

The key bits are the short sections on Malware and 'Hacking' starting at:
http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/II/OffIm0511.html#MW

If it would help, I could use the above to produce a 2-pager 
summarising the problems.


Further mutterings ...

I meant to track down some text-books and key articles, but the 
document had to be prepared in 24 hours, and I've never got back to 
it.

Some obvious starting-points:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_insecurity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malware
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_horse_%28computing%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystroke_logging
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_cracking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_%28computer_science%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_forensics

I've got a set of a dozen slides on malware that could be put to use 
if they were actually interested.

I was involved in an RBA/APSC subcommittee back about 1988-89, which 
considered an early version of the Code and specifically the need for 
consumer protections in relation to ATM design and processes.  (Banks 
were finally forced to get rid of the exposed vertical key-pads that 
made PIN capture a cinch).

They had some interest in solid evidence, which was a pleasant 
surprise.  (They = the RBA / regulatory members, not the bank reps of 
course).  So maybe the offer of a presentation might be an angle that 
would attract their attention.

Re the question you actually asked, Googling with mixtures of terms 
like <infection key-logger trojan statistics> and suchlike turns up 
some sources:
http://www.webroot.com/resources/stateofspyware/excerpt.html
http://www.secureworks.com/researchcenter/researchoverview.html
http://www.sans.org/reading_room/?portal=2027af4cebaac272f701e38e131117a1

But nope, nothing's obvious that actually answers the question ...

Regards  ...  Roger

-- 
Roger Clarke                  http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/
			            
Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd      78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA
                    Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916
mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au                http://www.xamax.com.au/

Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng  Australian National University
Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program      University of Hong Kong
Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre      Uni of NSW
From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au  Sun Jan 14 11:47:35 2007
From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke)
Date: Sun Jan 14 11:50:57 2007
Subject: [LINK] Canadians going bad on copyright
Message-ID: <p06240818c1cf2c5d08fb@[192.168.123.167]>


http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/1606/125/

Copyright and Digital Markets
Thursday January 11, 2007
Canadian Press is reporting this evening that the introduction of a 
copyright reform bill is imminent ...

http://www.680news.com/news/national/article.jsp?content=n011061A
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070112-8607.html

[Roughly, it may be as bad as the atrocious sell-out by the 
Australian Government - US-corporate welfare under the guise of 'free 
trade']

-- 
Roger Clarke                  http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/
			            
Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd      78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA
                    Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916
mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au                http://www.xamax.com.au/

Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng  Australian National University
Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program      University of Hong Kong
Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre      Uni of NSW
From rick at praxis.com.au  Sun Jan 14 12:53:26 2007
From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Sun Jan 14 12:53:45 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <42203EA2-5FFF-4318-B91E-9895F52AEB73@gmail.com>
References: <20070114065023.6468b500.alan@austlii.edu.au>
	<42203EA2-5FFF-4318-B91E-9895F52AEB73@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45A98D16.6090401@praxis.com.au>

Kim Holburn wrote:

>> Attack of the Zombie Computers Is Growing Threat
[SNIP]
>> Sensor information collected by his company is now able to identify  
>> more than 250,000 new botnet infections daily, Mr. Wesson said.
>>
>> ?We are losing this war badly,? he said. ?Even the vendors  understand 
>> that we are losing the war.?

The blame for this should lie squarely on Microsoft's shoulders.
But I preach to the converted :)
(And we did chew through the topic of software liability on
this very list last year)



>> Serry Winkler, a sales representative in Denver, said that she had  
>> turned off the network-security software provided by her Internet  
>> service provider because it slowed performance to a crawl on her  PC, 
>> which was running Windows 98. A few months ago four sheriff?s  
>> deputies pounded on her apartment door to confiscate the PC, which  
>> they said was being used to order goods from Sears with a stolen  
>> credit card. The computer, it turned out, had been commandeered by  an 
>> intruder who was using it remotely.
>>
>> ?I?m a middle-aged single woman living here for six years,? she  said. 
>> ?Do I sound like a terrorist??
>>
>> She is now planning to buy a more up-to-date PC, she said.

Interesting case in point. What on earth is this woman doing with a
Win98 box on the Internet? There ought to be a law!

One thing still amazes me. After all the data loss, application corruption,
lost time and money, reboots and crashes, people go out looking for
"a better PC". It doesn't exist, folks! Stop beating yourselves, wise
up and get something reliable and secure.




> On 2007/Jan/13, at 8:50 PM, Alan L Tyree wrote:
> 
>> Hi Linkers,
>> I'm looking for some help here. I'm writing a submission to ASIC on  the
>> review of the EFT Code of Conduct. One of the things that Industry has
>> been pushing for is to make consumers liable for losses caused by
>> computers infected with malware.

Oh, I wish! In other spheres of the economy and society,  people are
actually responsible for damage they cause by negligent use of
equipment, etc. But then again, in other spheres, manufactures and
service providers are responsible as well.

It is illegal to connect unapproved devices to the telecommunications
system in this country. It is illegal to operate carriage service without
proper licencing. Amazing then that it is just fine to connect a device
to the Internet that can be used to send spam, launder money, distribute
child pron and be used to attack other connected devices and the entire
network. Amazing!


>> The argument I wish to make is that consumers are hopelessly ill
>> equipped to secure their (Windows) computers. Can someone point me to
>> real research/statistics about the way that people *actually* run  their
>> computers?

Securing a computer system is a job for well-trained and experienced
IT people. It is not now and never will be a job for the consumer, no
more than fixing a car or repairing the electricals will be. The job
of a software manufacturer is to provide reliable and secure product.
Until that responsibility is legally enforced the problem will just
get worse.

I wish I could point you at some research done in this area, Alan,
but I haven't run across anything yet.

cheers
rickw


-- 
_________________________________
Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services

Almost every man wastes part of his life attempting to display qualities
which he does not possess.
      -- Samuel Johnson
From rick at praxis.com.au  Sun Jan 14 13:03:55 2007
From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Sun Jan 14 13:04:15 2007
Subject: [LINK] Canadians going bad on copyright
In-Reply-To: <p06240818c1cf2c5d08fb@[192.168.123.167]>
References: <p06240818c1cf2c5d08fb@[192.168.123.167]>
Message-ID: <45A98F8B.2010206@praxis.com.au>

Roger Clarke wrote:

  > http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/1606/125/
> 
> Copyright and Digital Markets
> Thursday January 11, 2007
> Canadian Press is reporting this evening that the introduction of a 
> copyright reform bill is imminent ...

See what happens when you vote in a compliant conservative
party?

The article mentions this:

"Canadians may recognize that they already pay millions every year for the
  private copying levy and thus feel comfortable with payment to artists via
  that alternative compensation system"

I believe the UK has a similar system: a small but very visible charge
is added on to the purchase price of recordable media. Makes sense
to me. Tax it at the source. Although, it is unfair to those who
are using the media to create original content, but that must constitute
a very small portion of entire recordable media sales.


> http://www.680news.com/news/national/article.jsp?content=n011061A
> http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070112-8607.html
> 
> [Roughly, it may be as bad as the atrocious sell-out by the Australian 
> Government - US-corporate welfare under the guise of 'free trade']


Here is the source of the rot:

"The legislation is being spearheaded by two government ministers,
  Maxime Bernier (Industry) and Bev Oda (Heritage), who are ranked numbers
  two and three on a recent list of underperforming politicians.

  Michael Geist, a law professor at the University of Ottawa, noted last
  year that much of Oda's fundraising, in particular, could be traced to
  copyright lobby groups, record labels, broadcasters, and cable companies."

Canada introduced a legislation outlawing donations larger than $X
to political parties (X being a rlaitvely small number). But it seems
that funds are still allowed to funnel in via lobbying to individual
pollies. Sounds rotten to me.

What will it take to get *our* politicians to get back on track and
work on *our* behalf for better democracy and society?


cheers
rickw




-- 
_________________________________
Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services

Almost every man wastes part of his life attempting to display qualities
which he does not possess.
      -- Samuel Johnson
From rick at praxis.com.au  Sun Jan 14 13:07:13 2007
From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Sun Jan 14 13:07:25 2007
Subject: [LINK] PayPal to combat phishing with key fobs
Message-ID: <45A99051.4020407@praxis.com.au>

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070112-8608.html

"In an effort to protect users from fraud and phishing schemes,
  eBay subsidiary PayPal is preparing to offer secure key fobs.
  The devices, which display a six-digit code that changes every
  30 seconds, will be made available free to all PayPal business
  users, and will cost $5 for all personal PayPal account users.
  Those who opt in on the key fob will have to enter the six-digit
  code when logging in to PayPal."

Some food for thought for banks.

The weakness in the PayPal idea is that the fob is opt-in. The very
people most likely to fall victim to phishing scams are likely not
to opt-in ... or is that a cynical syllogism?

cheers
rickw



-- 
_________________________________
Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services

Almost every man wastes part of his life attempting to display qualities
which he does not possess.
      -- Samuel Johnson

From alan at austlii.edu.au  Sun Jan 14 13:26:29 2007
From: alan at austlii.edu.au (Alan L Tyree)
Date: Sun Jan 14 13:27:49 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <p06240817c1cf0ab82630@[192.168.123.167]>
References: <20070114065023.6468b500.alan@austlii.edu.au>
	<p06240817c1cf0ab82630@[192.168.123.167]>
Message-ID: <20070114132629.ba1ad447.alan@austlii.edu.au>

On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 11:38:46 +1100
Roger Clarke <Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au> wrote:

> G'day Alan
> 
<SNIP>
> 
> It's not what you asked for, but ...
> 
> I did some expert evidence a little while back which required me to 
> catalogue the ways in which 'accesses to inappropriate sites' and 
> 'storage of inappropriate images' might occur, without the intention 
> of a device's user, and even without their knowledge.  The context 
> was alleged unfair dismissal.
> 
> The material could be turned to the purpose of demonstrating that:
> (1)  consumers' computers are not under consumers' control
> (2)  it is not practicable for consumers to exercise control
> 
> The first few parts are of marginal relevance to the current context.
> 
> This section has some relevance but would need to be cut down:
> http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/II/OffIm0511.html#AUC
> 
> The key bits are the short sections on Malware and 'Hacking' starting
> at: http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/II/OffIm0511.html#MW
> 
> If it would help, I could use the above to produce a 2-pager 
> summarising the problems.

It always helps Roger :-).

> 
> 
> Further mutterings ...
> 
<SNIP>
> 
> I was involved in an RBA/APSC subcommittee back about 1988-89, which 
> considered an early version of the Code and specifically the need for 
> consumer protections in relation to ATM design and processes.  (Banks 
> were finally forced to get rid of the exposed vertical key-pads that 
> made PIN capture a cinch).

Yes, I was actually a member of the APSC at that time. The Wallis
recommendations abolished the ASPC and replaced it with the Payment
Systems Board. I think that was a pity since the APSC really offered a
forum where various interests talked. It even got a few things done!
The PSB is just the RBA in disguise. Generally, they don't give a
flying F about consumer issues. The original EFT Code was (suprisingly)
given real life by the Treasury representatives on the APSC.


Many thanks for the response.

Alan
> 
> They had some interest in solid evidence, which was a pleasant 
> surprise.  (They = the RBA / regulatory members, not the bank reps of 
> course).  So maybe the offer of a presentation might be an angle that 
> would attract their attention.
> 
> Re the question you actually asked, Googling with mixtures of terms 
> like <infection key-logger trojan statistics> and suchlike turns up 
> some sources:
> http://www.webroot.com/resources/stateofspyware/excerpt.html
> http://www.secureworks.com/researchcenter/researchoverview.html
> http://www.sans.org/reading_room/?portal=2027af4cebaac272f701e38e131117a1
> 
> But nope, nothing's obvious that actually answers the question ...
> 
> Regards  ...  Roger
> 
> -- 
> Roger Clarke
> http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ 
> Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd      78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611
> AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916
> mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au
> http://www.xamax.com.au/
> 
> Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng  Australian National
> University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program
> University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law &
> Policy Centre      Uni of NSW
> _______________________________________________ Link mailing list
> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au
> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link
> 


-- 
Alan L Tyree                    http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel: +61 2 4782 2670            Mobile: +61 427 486 206
Fax: +61 2 4782 7092            FWD: 615662
From alan at austlii.edu.au  Sun Jan 14 13:29:39 2007
From: alan at austlii.edu.au (Alan L Tyree)
Date: Sun Jan 14 13:30:58 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <45A98D16.6090401@praxis.com.au>
References: <20070114065023.6468b500.alan@austlii.edu.au>
	<42203EA2-5FFF-4318-B91E-9895F52AEB73@gmail.com>
	<45A98D16.6090401@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070114132939.da795246.alan@austlii.edu.au>

On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 12:53:26 +1100
Rick Welykochy <rick@praxis.com.au> wrote:

> Kim Holburn wrote:
> 
> >> Attack of the Zombie Computers Is Growing Threat
> [SNIP]
> >> Sensor information collected by his company is now able to
> >> identify more than 250,000 new botnet infections daily, Mr. Wesson
> >> said.
> >>
> >> ?We are losing this war badly,? he said. ?Even the vendors
> >> understand that we are losing the war.?
> 
> The blame for this should lie squarely on Microsoft's shoulders.
> But I preach to the converted :)
> (And we did chew through the topic of software liability on
> this very list last year)
> 
> 
> 
<SNIP>
> 
> Interesting case in point. What on earth is this woman doing with a
> Win98 box on the Internet? There ought to be a law!

I agree with that. The thing about the EFT situation is that the Banks
and other providers are perfectly happy to let her hook up with Win98
or anything else. They won't make the investment to provide any secure
access, but now want to throw the losses on users. A fairly clear case
of externalities.

I would love to suggest that some of these losses be thrown onto
Microsoft, but I doubt that such a recommendation would meet with much
approval at ASIC!

> 
> One thing still amazes me. After all the data loss, application
> corruption, lost time and money, reboots and crashes, people go out
> looking for "a better PC". It doesn't exist, folks! Stop beating
> yourselves, wise up and get something reliable and secure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > On 2007/Jan/13, at 8:50 PM, Alan L Tyree wrote:
> > 
> >> Hi Linkers,
> >> I'm looking for some help here. I'm writing a submission to ASIC
> >> on  the review of the EFT Code of Conduct. One of the things that
> >> Industry has been pushing for is to make consumers liable for
> >> losses caused by computers infected with malware.
> 
> Oh, I wish! In other spheres of the economy and society,  people are
> actually responsible for damage they cause by negligent use of
> equipment, etc. But then again, in other spheres, manufactures and
> service providers are responsible as well.
> 
> It is illegal to connect unapproved devices to the telecommunications
> system in this country. It is illegal to operate carriage service
> without proper licencing. Amazing then that it is just fine to
> connect a device to the Internet that can be used to send spam,
> launder money, distribute child pron and be used to attack other
> connected devices and the entire network. Amazing!
> 
> 
> >> The argument I wish to make is that consumers are hopelessly ill
> >> equipped to secure their (Windows) computers. Can someone point me
> >> to real research/statistics about the way that people *actually*
> >> run  their computers?
> 
> Securing a computer system is a job for well-trained and experienced
> IT people. It is not now and never will be a job for the consumer, no
> more than fixing a car or repairing the electricals will be. The job
> of a software manufacturer is to provide reliable and secure product.
> Until that responsibility is legally enforced the problem will just
> get worse.
> 
> I wish I could point you at some research done in this area, Alan,
> but I haven't run across anything yet.
> 
> cheers
> rickw
> 
> 
> -- 
> _________________________________
> Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services
> 
> Almost every man wastes part of his life attempting to display
> qualities which he does not possess.
>       -- Samuel Johnson
> _______________________________________________
> Link mailing list
> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au
> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link
> 


-- 
Alan L Tyree                    http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel: +61 2 4782 2670            Mobile: +61 427 486 206
Fax: +61 2 4782 7092            FWD: 615662
From alan at austlii.edu.au  Sun Jan 14 13:31:43 2007
From: alan at austlii.edu.au (Alan L Tyree)
Date: Sun Jan 14 13:33:03 2007
Subject: [LINK] PayPal to combat phishing with key fobs
In-Reply-To: <45A99051.4020407@praxis.com.au>
References: <45A99051.4020407@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070114133143.067a4e4b.alan@austlii.edu.au>

On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 13:07:13 +1100
Rick Welykochy <rick@praxis.com.au> wrote:

> http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070112-8608.html
> 
> "In an effort to protect users from fraud and phishing schemes,
>   eBay subsidiary PayPal is preparing to offer secure key fobs.
>   The devices, which display a six-digit code that changes every
>   30 seconds, will be made available free to all PayPal business
>   users, and will cost $5 for all personal PayPal account users.
>   Those who opt in on the key fob will have to enter the six-digit
>   code when logging in to PayPal."
> 
> Some food for thought for banks.
> 
> The weakness in the PayPal idea is that the fob is opt-in. The very
> people most likely to fall victim to phishing scams are likely not
> to opt-in ... or is that a cynical syllogism?

Rick,
What other technical methods might be used to prevent (or at least
curtail) phishing? Is there some sort of challenge/response approach
using software supplied by the Banks or other targets? I need to look
at some positive suggestions for this EFT Code review.

Alan

> 
> cheers
> rickw
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> _________________________________
> Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services
> 
> Almost every man wastes part of his life attempting to display
> qualities which he does not possess.
>       -- Samuel Johnson
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Link mailing list
> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au
> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link
> 


-- 
Alan L Tyree                    http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel: +61 2 4782 2670            Mobile: +61 427 486 206
Fax: +61 2 4782 7092            FWD: 615662
From alan at austlii.edu.au  Sun Jan 14 14:36:16 2007
From: alan at austlii.edu.au (Alan L Tyree)
Date: Sun Jan 14 14:37:36 2007
Subject: [LINK] PayPal to combat phishing with key fobs
In-Reply-To: <45A99C0E.90507@lannet.com.au>
References: <45A99051.4020407@praxis.com.au>
	<20070114133143.067a4e4b.alan@austlii.edu.au>
	<45A99C0E.90507@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070114143616.7f1932c2.alan@austlii.edu.au>

On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 13:57:18 +1100
Howard Lowndes <lannet@lannet.com.au> wrote:

> 
> 
> Alan L Tyree wrote:
> > On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 13:07:13 +1100
> > Rick Welykochy <rick@praxis.com.au> wrote:
> > 
> >> http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070112-8608.html
> >>
> >> "In an effort to protect users from fraud and phishing schemes,
> >>   eBay subsidiary PayPal is preparing to offer secure key fobs.
> >>   The devices, which display a six-digit code that changes every
> >>   30 seconds, will be made available free to all PayPal business
> >>   users, and will cost $5 for all personal PayPal account users.
> >>   Those who opt in on the key fob will have to enter the six-digit
> >>   code when logging in to PayPal."
> >>
> >> Some food for thought for banks.
> >>
> >> The weakness in the PayPal idea is that the fob is opt-in. The very
> >> people most likely to fall victim to phishing scams are likely not
> >> to opt-in ... or is that a cynical syllogism?
> > 
> > Rick,
> > What other technical methods might be used to prevent (or at least
> > curtail) phishing? Is there some sort of challenge/response approach
> > using software supplied by the Banks or other targets? I need to
> > look at some positive suggestions for this EFT Code review.
> 
> What's needed is not only for the server to require the client to 
> authenticate, but for the client to require the server to
> authenticate as well to ensure that the server is really who they say
> they are.

How hard is that to implement? Can I say to ASIC that the Banks could
cut phishing losses at a reasonable price with this approach?



> 
> -- 
> Howard.
> LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people
> <http://lannetlinux.com> When you want a computer system that works,
> just choose Linux; When you want a computer system that works, just,
> choose Microsoft. --
> Flatter government, not fatter government; abolish the Australian
> states.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Link mailing list
> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au
> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link
> 


-- 
Alan L Tyree                    http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel: +61 2 4782 2670            Mobile: +61 427 486 206
Fax: +61 2 4782 7092            FWD: 615662
From rick at praxis.com.au  Sun Jan 14 15:08:01 2007
From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Sun Jan 14 15:09:20 2007
Subject: [LINK] PayPal to combat phishing with key fobs
In-Reply-To: <20070114133143.067a4e4b.alan@austlii.edu.au>
References: <45A99051.4020407@praxis.com.au>
	<20070114133143.067a4e4b.alan@austlii.edu.au>
Message-ID: <45A9ACA1.3090908@praxis.com.au>

Alan L Tyree wrote:

> What other technical methods might be used to prevent (or at least
> curtail) phishing? Is there some sort of challenge/response approach
> using software supplied by the Banks or other targets? I need to look
> at some positive suggestions for this EFT Code review.

There needs to be an additional form of authentication that has absolutely
nothing to do with the website.

Thus we have ideas like nonce generators which create a unique token that
must be passed back to the server for matching. But what about a phishing
attempt that just asks for a username and password, and offers no nonce
authentication. At most, the hapless user might notice that the server
did not ask for a nonce and think little of it as they provide their
username and password to the phishing site. Another suggestion has been
to send the nonce to a mobile phone, but that process can be mimicked by
a phisher. Yes the phisher has to obtain the mobile phone number, but
that is just an extra step in the phishing process.

One might think that a digital cert would do the trick. But with a phishing
attack, there is no requirement for authentication, and thus the cert
would not even be sent by the browser.

Java apps and applets have been tried, much to the frustration and inconvenience
of customers who might not be running a system that is 100% compatible with
the Java code bein sent out by the back. But a phisher could easily provide
an erzatz java app that mimics the behaviour of the real thing and trick
the user once more.

Phishing is very difficult to curtail with just technology, since it is
a problem rooted in social engineering more than anything else. The user
is fooled into thinking that http://westpac-access-check.com/ is a bonfide
Westpac website. And worse, the email in which the phish is sent shows
a valid Westpac link (as text) but the hidden hyperlink is to a bogus
site. Hapless victims have no idea that they should (a) never click on
links in emails unless they trust them 110% and (b) always verify the
hostname in a URL.

My conclusion is that without an independent authentication path (i.e. not
web based) phishing will continue to be a successful way to divest the
uninformed consumer of their savings. Give me any web-only authentication
system and I can show you how a phisher can duplicate that system to fool
all but the expert user - they just have to clone and corrupt the original
technology, which is the easy part. Harder is the social engineering. But
I think they are getting better at it. It's all in the wording they chose.


cheers
rickw

P.S. google define:nonce produces: "A randomly chosen value, different from
      previous choices, inserted in a message to protect against replays."

-- 
_________________________________
Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services

Almost every man wastes part of his life attempting to display qualities
which he does not possess.
      -- Samuel Johnson
From grove at zeta.org.au  Sun Jan 14 15:34:24 2007
From: grove at zeta.org.au (grove@zeta.org.au)
Date: Sun Jan 14 15:34:40 2007
Subject: [LINK] PayPal to combat phishing with key fobs
In-Reply-To: <20070114143616.7f1932c2.alan@austlii.edu.au>
References: <45A99051.4020407@praxis.com.au>
	<20070114133143.067a4e4b.alan@austlii.edu.au>
	<45A99C0E.90507@lannet.com.au>
	<20070114143616.7f1932c2.alan@austlii.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701141532210.3493@zathras.uws.edu.au>

On Sun, 14 Jan 2007, Alan L Tyree wrote:

>> What's needed is not only for the server to require the client to
>> authenticate, but for the client to require the server to
>> authenticate as well to ensure that the server is really who they say
>> they are.
>
> How hard is that to implement? Can I say to ASIC that the Banks could
> cut phishing losses at a reasonable price with this approach?

SSH does it.....  ....if I understand correctly.   The server has 
a key as well and the client checks this before proceeding too far.

If the server key is incorrect or unexpected, a warning is issued
and the session waits for the user to accept the connection or not.


rachel

-- 
Rachel Polanskis                 Kingswood, Greater Western Sydney, Australia
grove@zeta.org.au                http://www.zeta.org.au/~grove/grove.html
 	"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security,
 	deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin, 1759
From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Sun Jan 14 16:14:38 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Sun Jan 14 16:18:07 2007
Subject: [LINK] PayPal to combat phishing with key fobs
In-Reply-To: <45A9ACA1.3090908@praxis.com.au>
References: <45A99051.4020407@praxis.com.au>
	<20070114133143.067a4e4b.alan@austlii.edu.au>
	<45A9ACA1.3090908@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$264sef@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 03:08 PM 14/01/2007, Rick Welykochy wrote:
>My conclusion is that without an independent authentication path (i.e. not
>web based) phishing will continue to be a successful way to divest the
>uninformed consumer of their savings. Give me any web-only authentication
>system and I can show you how a phisher can duplicate that system to fool
>all but the expert user - they just have to clone and corrupt the original
>technology, which is the easy part. Harder is the social engineering. But
>I think they are getting better at it. It's all in the wording they chose.

A few ideas come to mind.

1. There is also the psychology of the consumer with regard to 
interacting with any site. The power relationship lies with the 
'bank', so the individual will? might? look at the situation only 
from their need to convince the remote site they are who they say 
they are as the customer. The thought that the remote site would be 
required to provide the same assurance in reverse is less likely to 
occur to the individual. After all, the individual initiated the 
contact, not the other way around. The customer may also see that 
'power' ratio as a good thing because it would be interpreted as a 
stronger security from other who may wish to 'break into' their account.

2. nonces and key fobs are seen to the general public as another 
'black magic' technology. Wouldn't have a clue how it works. I don't! 
For example, is it necessary for there to be some relationship to 
location for a PayPal fob to work accurately? Are they international 
or only local? Don't bother explaining, I really wouldn't care. The 
'trust the issuer' aspect comes into play. I have one for an old 
Westpac account. I closed that account. Is it of any value any more? 
is it only attached to the account I used to have and for which I 
never used it because it was only required for large dollar amounts?

3. My email program, Eudora, alerts me when I hover on an embedded 
link if the visible URL is different from the underlying URL to which 
the user will be sent. It's interesting how many times the phishing 
emails include legitimate links to things like security and privacy 
areas from the supposed sender, but redirects to sites in the actual 
spoof intention like changing a password or updating details.

4. What is the real value of certificates? I've received several 
alerts where the certificate has expired, do I want to go ahead. I 
generally do because the page I'm going to access is something I 
anticipate to be only flat code, nothing that weird. But in terms of 
this discussion, is there any place for a rigorous implementation of 
third party certification of site identity and security? When I 
started seeing the expiry problem, I figured it may have gone past 
its use date in the security space.

Jan


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From cas at taz.net.au  Sun Jan 14 16:19:49 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Sun Jan 14 16:19:51 2007
Subject: [LINK] PayPal to combat phishing with key fobs
In-Reply-To: <45A9ACA1.3090908@praxis.com.au>
References: <45A99051.4020407@praxis.com.au>
	<20070114133143.067a4e4b.alan@austlii.edu.au>
	<45A9ACA1.3090908@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070114051949.GC26390@taz.net.au>

On Sun, Jan 14, 2007 at 03:08:01PM +1100, Rick Welykochy wrote:
> Alan L Tyree wrote:
> 
> > What other technical methods might be used to prevent (or at least
> > curtail) phishing? Is there some sort of challenge/response approach
> > using software supplied by the Banks or other targets? I need to
> > look at some positive suggestions for this EFT Code review.
>
> There needs to be an additional form of authentication that has
> absolutely nothing to do with the website.
>
> Thus we have ideas like nonce generators which create a unique token
> that must be passed back to the server for matching.

that's pretty much what the key-fob thing is. it generates a code each
time the button is pressed which must be supplied along with the login
id & password.

it provides a second level of authentication - something you HAVE (the
key-fob), as well as something you KNOW (the password).

> But what about a phishing attempt that just asks for a username and
> password, and offers no nonce authentication. At most, the hapless
> user might notice that the server

if the banking site requires the unique code as well as the login &
password, then the phisher only ends up with part of what they need to
loot the account.

i have one for my (Bendigo Bank) account. if i want to login, i have
to have it with me. i'm reasonably happy with the level of security it
provides. i'd be happier still if (see below), i could upload a client
certificate to my bank site as well and restrict logins to browsers
holding that cert.

> One might think that a digital cert would do the trick. But with a
> phishing attack, there is no requirement for authentication, and thus
> the cert would not even be sent by the browser.

about the only thing that might work is client-side certificates.

all banking sites need to do to enable that is to have an option where
the user can upload their public certificate and click an option that
says "only allow connections from this certificate".

alternatively, a button at the bank site to generate a client
certificate and download it to the client.

of course, phishers can still attack windows users by sending out
viruses/trojans that look for and steal certificate files. fortunately,
it is possible to protect them with a pass-phrase (which doesn't get
sent to a remote web site).

a client certificate would be another instance of "something you have"
- another level of authentication...but because it's digital and is on
the client's computer, is easier to copy/steal than a separate hardware
device like a key-chain gizmo.


> Phishing is very difficult to curtail with just technology, since it is
> a problem rooted in social engineering more than anything else. The user

true.

> is fooled into thinking that http://westpac-access-check.com/ is a bonfide
> Westpac website. And worse, the email in which the phish is sent shows
> a valid Westpac link (as text) but the hidden hyperlink is to a bogus
> site. Hapless victims have no idea that they should (a) never click on
> links in emails unless they trust them 110% and (b) always verify the
> hostname in a URL.

actually, they should never click on email links to non-trivial sites,
regardless of how much they trust the site - because they have no idea
whether the link is actually to the site that it is claiming to link to,
nor do they have enough knowledge to make an accurate assessment of the
trustworthiness of a site.

better just to say "NEVER click on links in email".


that would help a lot, especially if coupled with banks getting a clue
and NEVER sending email to their clients, and loudly informing them
on every visit to their site that they NEVER send email so any email
claiming to be from them MUST be a forgery.


craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au  Sun Jan 14 17:07:29 2007
From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke)
Date: Sun Jan 14 17:14:53 2007
Subject: 'User Certs' [Was Re: [LINK] PayPal to combat phishing with key fobs
In-Reply-To: <20070114051949.GC26390@taz.net.au>
References: <45A99051.4020407@praxis.com.au>
	<20070114133143.067a4e4b.alan@austlii.edu.au>
	<45A9ACA1.3090908@praxis.com.au> <20070114051949.GC26390@taz.net.au>
Message-ID: <p0624081dc1cf76a571ef@[192.168.123.167]>

Some observations about signing by users.

1.  In general I agree with what Craig says, but ...

2.  It's important to avoid the commonly-used shorthand, because it's
     misleading in an important manner.

     The certificate and the 'private digital signature key' need to be
     distinguished.

     All sentences that refer to 'something that the user knows' need to
     use the term 'private key' and the generation of a 'digital signature'.

     All sentences that refer to how the server-side / fin'l instn uses
     the digital signature to perform authentication of the client need
     to use the term 'certificate'.

     I know it's pedantic but it matters.  All manner of blunders are
     being made by user organisations, and by the under-educated sales
     people working for suppliers, because the language has been
     allowed to slip, and misinformation is being spread all over the
     place.

3.  A decade ago, when people mistakenly thought that PKI would help,
     I was deeply involved in a lot of work, variously consultancy and
     research.  These are about as crisp as anything I wrote back then:
     http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/DV/DigSig.html#Pte (1997)
     http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/DV/PKIPosn.html (1998)
     http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/II/ECIS2001.html (2001)

     The conclusion was, and remains:

"Conventional PKI involves enormous complexity, effort and expense, 
in return for insecure protections, very weak evidence, and very 
limited recourse. Both corporations and individuals, including 
consumers, citizens, employees and contractors (especially those in 
sensitive circumstances) should have serious doubts about schemes of 
this nature being inflicted upon them."


At 16:19 +1100 14/1/07, Craig Sanders wrote:
>>about the only thing that might work is client-side certificates.
>
>all banking sites need to do to enable that is to have an option where
>the user can upload their public certificate and click an option that
>says "only allow connections from this certificate".
>
>alternatively, a button at the bank site to generate a client
>certificate and download it to the client.
>
>of course, phishers can still attack windows users by sending out
>viruses/trojans that look for and steal certificate files. fortunately,
>it is possible to protect them with a pass-phrase (which doesn't get
>sent to a remote web site).
>
>a client certificate would be another instance of "something you have"
>- another level of authentication...but because it's digital and is on
>the client's computer, is easier to copy/steal than a separate hardware
>device like a key-chain gizmo.

-- 
Roger Clarke                  http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/
			            
Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd      78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA
                    Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916
mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au                http://www.xamax.com.au/

Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng  Australian National University
Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program      University of Hong Kong
Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre      Uni of NSW
From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au  Sun Jan 14 17:29:30 2007
From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee)
Date: Sun Jan 14 17:29:39 2007
Subject: [LINK] certificates
Message-ID: <20070114062930.GA9929@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au>

The biggest problem is that users simply ignore both ssl encryption
and the existence of certificates, signed or otherwise.  I don't know
what can be done about this.

A smaller problem is that it's trivial to get a signed certificate
that verifies that www.westpac-ultrasecure.com really does belong to
"WP Inc" or some other such entity.  Maybe there should be some kind
of certification restricted to Australian financial institutions
and managed by ASIC or the RBA.  (Of course this won't help with
transations with merchants.)  But how useful this would be given the
bigger problem of user blindness I don't know.

Danny.
  ---------------------------------------------------------
  http://dannyreviews.com/ - over nine hundred book reviews
  http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog
  ---------------------------------------------------------

From cas at taz.net.au  Sun Jan 14 18:09:43 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Sun Jan 14 18:09:44 2007
Subject: [LINK] certificates
In-Reply-To: <20070114062930.GA9929@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au>
References: <20070114062930.GA9929@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <20070114070943.GD26390@taz.net.au>

On Sun, Jan 14, 2007 at 05:29:30PM +1100, Danny Yee wrote:
> The biggest problem is that users simply ignore both ssl encryption
> and the existence of certificates, signed or otherwise.  

sort of.

yes, most users do ignore them.  and they're ignorant.  and negligent.

however, that's greatly exacerbated by the fact that NONE of the online
banks even support the use of client certificates, so even those who
know about them and want to use them CAN'T.

it's a bit much to put ALL the blame on the users for not using a
feature that isn't even available to them.

so, yes - users ARE to blame.  so are the banks.

> I don't know what can be done about this.

banks can start by providing the client-certificate feature as an option
and eventually move to requiring it (which would, of course, mean no
logging on at internet cafes or other public terminals. incovenient for
some, but a good thing security-wise).



> A smaller problem is that it's trivial to get a signed certificate
> that verifies that www.westpac-ultrasecure.com really does belong to
> "WP Inc" or some other such entity.  Maybe there should be some kind
> of certification restricted to Australian financial institutions
> and managed by ASIC or the RBA.  (Of course this won't help with
> transations with merchants.)  But how useful this would be given the
> bigger problem of user blindness I don't know.

wouldn't make much difference. a CA (certificate authority) is a CA
- there's no way for a browser to know that a particular web site is
a banking site and SHOULD have a cert signed by a special banking CA
managed by ASIC or the RBA or whoever.

as far as the user is concerned, their browser only pops up a warning if
the site's certificate :

 - has expired
or
 - is signed by an unknown (and thus untrusted) CA
or
 - is a self-signed certificate
or
 - doesn't match the site's details (i.e. domain name)

if it is signed by a known CA then it's just accepted without any
warning or even dialog box. so we're back to the fact that the
commercial CAs can't be trusted as there are numerous instances of them
signing certificates without bothering to verify identity and even, on
some occasions, signing bogus certs for well-known organisations (e.g.
in one well-known incident a few years ago, one CA signed a certificate
for someone claiming to represent Microsoft Corporation)


craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From kim.holburn at gmail.com  Sun Jan 14 18:56:41 2007
From: kim.holburn at gmail.com (Kim Holburn)
Date: Sun Jan 14 18:57:04 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <20070114132939.da795246.alan@austlii.edu.au>
References: <20070114065023.6468b500.alan@austlii.edu.au>
	<42203EA2-5FFF-4318-B91E-9895F52AEB73@gmail.com>
	<45A98D16.6090401@praxis.com.au>
	<20070114132939.da795246.alan@austlii.edu.au>
Message-ID: <E1A84AAF-4A0D-4CC6-9F0E-1C9BFB9DFFE5@gmail.com>

How about this:

http://www.sophos.com/pressoffice/news/articles/2006/07/ 
securityreportmid2006.html
> 5 July 2006
> Sophos Security Report reveals Trojan domination in first half of 2006
> Malware statistics suggest it is time for home users to switch to Macs
> Sophos Security Threat Management Report Update
>
> Sophos, a world leader in protecting businesses against computer  
> threats, has published new research into the past six months of  
> cyber crime.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/5150508.stm

> Threats prompt Mac switch advice
> Trojans now outnumber viruses and worms four to one
> Security threats to PCs with Microsoft Windows have increased so  
> much that computer users should consider using a Mac, says a  
> leading security firm.
>
> Sophos security said that the 10 most commonly found pieces of  
> malicious software all targeted Windows machines.
>
> In contrast, it said, none of the "malware" were capable of  
> infecting the Mac OS X operating system.
>


> Top threats
>
> The advice from Sophos was given as it released a report, detailing  
> the security threats posed to computers so far in 2006.
>
> The report says that there has been a vast drop in malicious  
> software like viruses and worms.
> However, the company warns that there has been a sharp increase in  
> the number of Trojans. It said that 82% of new security threats  
> this year were from these programs.
> It seems likely that Macs will continue to be the safer place for  
> computer users for some time to come
> Graham Cluley, Sophos



>  At its peak, the worm accounted for one in every 13 e-mails being  
> sent.
>
> The worm infected computers running the Windows operating system,  
> but was not designed to infect Apple Macs.
>
> "It seems likely that Macs will continue to be the safer place for  
> computer users for some time to come," said Mr Cluley.
>
> "[That is] something that home users may wish to consider if  
> they're deliberating about the next computer they should purchase,"  
> he added.
>
> But Brian Gammage, an analyst at Gartner research does not believe  
> the advice is well founded.
>
> The number of people using Macs is far less than those using  
> Window's based PCs, he said.



On 2007/Jan/14, at 3:29 AM, Alan L Tyree wrote:

>
> I agree with that. The thing about the EFT situation is that the Banks
> and other providers are perfectly happy to let her hook up with Win98
> or anything else. They won't make the investment to provide any secure
> access, but now want to throw the losses on users. A fairly clear case
> of externalities.
>
> I would love to suggest that some of these losses be thrown onto
> Microsoft, but I doubt that such a recommendation would meet with much
> approval at ASIC!
>

--
Kim Holburn
IT Network & Security Consultant
Ph: +39 06 855 4294  M: +39 3342707610
mailto:kim@holburn.net  aim://kimholburn
skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request

Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny.
                           -- Lloyd Biggle, Jr. Analog, Apr 1961



From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au  Sun Jan 14 19:05:48 2007
From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke)
Date: Sun Jan 14 19:06:03 2007
Subject: [LINK] certificates
In-Reply-To: <20070114062930.GA9929@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au>
References: <20070114062930.GA9929@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <p0624081ec1cf900b65e1@[192.168.123.167]>

At 17:29 +1100 14/1/07, Danny Yee wrote:
>The biggest problem is that users simply ignore both ssl encryption
>and the existence of certificates, signed or otherwise.  I don't know
>what can be done about this.

Those of us who know what certs are supposed to do, and what those 
warnings are supposed to mean, also ignore them.

We do so because we know that they have never meant what they're 
supposed to mean, and they never will.

Here's what I posted to some colleagues a couple of weeks ago:

>Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 12:20:03 +1100
>
>Re Extended Validation SSL Certificate Vetting Process:
>http://www.cabforum.org/vetting.html
>
>Sounds like something various of us might have written c. 1998?
>
>As per usual, the difficult bit has been ducked:
>"The CA must take all steps reasonably necessary to verify that the 
>entity named in the EV Certificate has authorized the issuance of 
>the EV Certificate".
>
>But is there anything that the relying party can actually rely on, 
>and can actually seek recompense for in the event that it proves not 
>to be correct?
>
>Ah, here we are, at 37(a)(1):
>http://www.cabforum.org/EV_Certificate_Guidelines.pdf
>"limitations on the CA's liability MUST ... be specified in the CA's 
>EV Policies, and ... in no event shall the CA seek to limit its 
>liability to Subscribers or Relying Parties for legally recognized 
>and provable claims to a monetary amount less than $2,000 per 
>Subscriber or Relying Party per EV Certificate".
>
>In other words, "we stand by our certification to the level of ... 
>the administrative costs of processing your letter of complaint".
>
>It *looks* like progress;  but it still hasn't solved the basic problem.


Danny continued:
>A smaller problem is that it's trivial to get a signed certificate ...

A nice way to put it.


>  ... that verifies that www.westpac-ultrasecure.com really does belong to
>"WP Inc" or some other such entity.  Maybe there should be some kind
>of certification restricted to Australian financial institutions
>and managed by ASIC or the RBA.  (Of course this won't help with
>transations with merchants.) ...

That's called Identrus within the banking community, and they're 
(still?  again?) trying to sell it to merchants under the brandname 
IdentTrust:
http://www.identrust.com/

Identrus works within the closed community of financial institutions 
that have full-time IT staff, who have lots of expertise and who they 
can give lots of training, and that can afford the horrendous costs 
involved.

Identrus doesn't work *outside* such circumstances.

Remember SET?  It was pretty comprehensive, and heavy duty;  and in 
order to work (in a technical sense) it was so heavy duty that it 
could never work (in a commercial and strategic sense).

Locally, there was a project called ANGUS c. 1999-2001:
http://www.agimo.gov.au/resources/ppt/2001/010517dm?result_page=14 
http://www.agimo.gov.au/resources/ppt/2001/010517dm?result_page=13
http://www.agimo.gov.au/resources/ppt/2001/010517dm?result_page=20
http://www.agimo.gov.au/resources/ppt/2001/010517dm?result_page=31

As far as I can tell, Angus didn't make much progress (although to 
the credit of our sometime client, then NOIE now AGIMO, the 
historically important material is still web-accessible).


-- 
Roger Clarke                  http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/
			            
Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd      78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA
                    Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916
mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au                http://www.xamax.com.au/

Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng  Australian National University
Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program      University of Hong Kong
Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre      Uni of NSW
From jwhit at janwhitaker.com  Sun Jan 14 19:53:46 2007
From: jwhit at janwhitaker.com (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Sun Jan 14 19:58:50 2007
Subject: [LINK] Google Earth 'helps' bad guys in Iraq
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$2667d4@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

Terrorists 'use Google maps to hit UK troops'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/01/13/wgoogle13.xml

By Thomas Harding in Basra
Last Updated: 2:06am GMT 13/01/2007

Terrorists attacking British bases in Basra are using aerial footage 
displayed by the Google Earth internet tool to pinpoint their 
attacks, say Army intelligence sources.

Documents seized during raids on the homes of insurgents last week 
uncovered print-outs from photographs taken from Google.

The satellite photographs show in detail the buildings inside the 
bases and vulnerable areas such as tented accommodation, lavatory 
blocks and where lightly armoured Land Rovers are parked.

[snip]

Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From brendansweb at optusnet.com.au  Sun Jan 14 20:42:30 2007
From: brendansweb at optusnet.com.au (Brendan Scott)
Date: Sun Jan 14 20:31:00 2007
Subject: [LINK] certificates
In-Reply-To: <20070114062930.GA9929@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au>
References: <20070114062930.GA9929@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <45A9FB06.4090003@optusnet.com.au>

Danny Yee wrote:
> The biggest problem is that users simply ignore both ssl encryption
> and the existence of certificates, signed or otherwise.  I don't know
> what can be done about this.
> 
> A smaller problem is that it's trivial to get a signed certificate
> that verifies that www.westpac-ultrasecure.com really does belong to
> "WP Inc" or some other such entity.  Maybe there should be some kind
> of certification restricted to Australian financial institutions
> and managed by ASIC or the RBA.  (Of course this won't help with
> transations with merchants.)  But how useful this would be given the
> bigger problem of user blindness I don't know.

The more fundamental problem is the assumption that there is a technical solution to the issue of credibility - which there isn't.   Certificates necessarily trade off security against pragmatism.   It would be easy to largely eliminate identity fraud by requiring all applicants for bank accounts etc  to be personally known to their local bank manager for at least 24 months before their application (etc) - but it would be rather inconvenient.  Identity fraud etc is a consequence of design decisions which have been made in the banking system.  

Brendan


From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Sun Jan 14 20:45:13 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Sun Jan 14 20:47:56 2007
Subject: [LINK] Link test Tony
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$266ip1@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

This is just to see if messages get through from me. One that I sent 
earlier commenting on the bank security processes didn't post. It was 
sent as a reply at 16:14 today. Did anyone receive it? The google 
earth one was sent at 19:53 and just appeared at 20:33. odd....

Jan

Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From cas at taz.net.au  Sun Jan 14 21:46:06 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Sun Jan 14 21:46:07 2007
Subject: [LINK] certificates
In-Reply-To: <45A9FC99.9090102@lannet.com.au>
References: <20070114062930.GA9929@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au>
	<20070114070943.GD26390@taz.net.au>
	<45A9FC99.9090102@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070114104606.GE26390@taz.net.au>

On Sun, Jan 14, 2007 at 08:49:13PM +1100, Howard Lowndes wrote:
> Craig Sanders wrote:
> >or
> > - is signed by an unknown (and thus untrusted) CA
> 
> Unknown != Untrusted

i didn't say "untrustworthy". i said "untrusted". an unknown CA *IS*
untrusted by the browser, compared to a known CA which *IS* trusted.
whether either of them are trustworthy or not is an entirely different
question.

a browser will pop up a scary-looking dialog box when presented with a
cert signed by an unknown CA. the user then has to decide (with minimal
information) whether to accept/trust that certificate or not. most users
will do one of two things: ignore it and click OK regardless or panic
and click Cancel regardless.



> >or
> > - is a self-signed certificate
> 
> Same as previous, and I've never seen that warning

it's the same as unknown CA.

> >or
> > - doesn't match the site's details (i.e. domain name)
> 
> A common problem for virtual web sites.

only when the site is run by idiots.

it generally means either a) the site is fraudulent or b) the site is
run by morons. in either case, it would be a bad idea to trust them with
your personal or credit card details.


> > if it is signed by a known CA then it's just accepted without any
> > warning or even dialog box. so we're back to the fact that the
> > commercial CAs can't be trusted as there are numerous instances
> > of them signing certificates without bothering to verify identity
> > and even, on some occasions, signing bogus certs for well-known
> > organisations (e.g. in one well-known incident a few years ago, one
> > CA signed a certificate for someone claiming to represent Microsoft
> > Corporation)
>
> A certifcate signed by a "trusted" CA only means that they have paid
> the fee - nothing else.

of course. i never said, or even implied, otherwise. in fact,
i've argued on numerous occasions over the years that the whole
PKI/authorised-CA system in browsers is a massive scam, designed (by
Netscape Inc and perpetuated by Microsoft) purely to turn something that
was infinitely abundant (i.e. provision of encryption certs) into an
artificial scarcity to enable a near-monopoly.


read what i wrote. my point was precisely that you can't necessarily
trust a certificate just because it has been signed by verisign or some
other known CA.



craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From link at todd.inoz.com  Sun Jan 14 22:11:58 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Sun Jan 14 22:12:36 2007
Subject: [LINK] PayPal to combat phishing with key fobs
In-Reply-To: <45A99051.4020407@praxis.com.au>
References: <45A99051.4020407@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070114221040.030ddda8@wheresmymailserver.com>

At 01:07 PM 14/01/2007, Rick Welykochy wrote:
>http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070112-8608.html
>
>"In an effort to protect users from fraud and phishing schemes,
>  eBay subsidiary PayPal is preparing to offer secure key fobs.
>  The devices, which display a six-digit code that changes every
>  30 seconds, will be made available free to all PayPal business
>  users, and will cost $5 for all personal PayPal account users.
>  Those who opt in on the key fob will have to enter the six-digit
>  code when logging in to PayPal."
>
>Some food for thought for banks.
>
>The weakness in the PayPal idea is that the fob is opt-in. The very
>people most likely to fall victim to phishing scams are likely not
>to opt-in ... or is that a cynical syllogism?

I think people will opt in.  NAB reports a very high uptake on the SMS 
registration and pin concept.  This seems cheaper to me, considering you 
can send an SMS for 3 cents :)  (Yeah I know, but banks like to charge!)

But then in my case, we don't have a problem with paypal or banking online. 
I don't enter data into web sites I'm redirected to!


From cas at taz.net.au  Mon Jan 15 08:56:11 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Mon Jan 15 08:56:13 2007
Subject: [LINK] certificates
In-Reply-To: <45AA6B1E.9030204@lannet.com.au>
References: <20070114062930.GA9929@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au>
	<20070114070943.GD26390@taz.net.au>
	<45A9FC99.9090102@lannet.com.au>
	<20070114104606.GE26390@taz.net.au>
	<45AA6B1E.9030204@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070114215610.GF26390@taz.net.au>

On Mon, Jan 15, 2007 at 04:40:46AM +1100, Howard Lowndes wrote:
> Craig Sanders wrote:

> >>>or
> >>>- doesn't match the site's details (i.e. domain name)
> >>A common problem for virtual web sites.
> >
> >only when the site is run by idiots.
> 
> Don't be insulting.  

it may be insulting but it's also a fact. anyone running ssl sites ought
to at least know how they work and how to set them up.

> Go to my site at https:lannet.com.au/mail and you 
> will see what I mean.  

i presume you meant "https://WWW.lannet.com.au/mail" because the
certificate you have is for lannet.com.au and works fine for that
domain. it whinges, however, if you go to https://www.lannet.com.au/ -
because www.lannet.com.au is a different domain than lannet.com.au, just
as foo.com.au is different from bar.com.au

a browser can not assume that a sub-domain (or hostname within a domain
- e.g. "www.lannet.com.au") is equivalent to the domain itself (e.g.
"lannet.com.au") - otherwise a cert for ".com.au" or even ".com" could
undermine the entire system.

> Do you have a solution for that, 

yes. a wildcard certificate, for "*.lannet.com.au". 

you can buy them from several commercial CAs, or you can generate them
yourself with openssl.

try a google search for "wildcard ssl certificate".

> because even Apache don't?  From their FAQ:
>
> "Why is it not possible to use Name-Based Virtual Hosting to identify
> different SSL virtual hosts?

that's a limitation of NAME-BASED virtual hosts only, not of all virtual
hosts. if you want to do SSL encrypted virtual hosting then you MUST
assign a unique IP address (or unique port number) per secure vhost.
non-ssl sites can share an IP and use name-based vhosting, ssl sites
require their own IP or port. the Apache FAQ you quoted explains why.

that has NOTHING to do with the certificate, or whether it matches the
site's details. it is entirely possible - and easy - to have multiple
virtual hosts on a server, each with its own ssl certificate. all it
takes is a little bit of a clue.

if you don't understand that, then perhaps you shouldn't be running ssl
sites.



craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Mon Jan 15 10:41:25 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Mon Jan 15 10:43:50 2007
Subject: [LINK] Research Into Procrastination Shows Surprising
In-Reply-To: <200701140104.l0E14Dap021121@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <C1D10AD5.68B%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>


Steve wrote:
> 
> I'm amazed at two things done by the reporters: [perhaps Steward Fist
> would comment]

Wot!  You mean things like misspelling people's names?


And, incidentally, I ain't a reporter.  I'm a journalist.


-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458

From brd at iimetro.com.au  Mon Jan 15 11:08:50 2007
From: brd at iimetro.com.au (brd@iimetro.com.au)
Date: Mon Jan 15 11:09:04 2007
Subject: [LINK] National Filter Scheme
Message-ID: <20070115090850.q8p0toxut78gko0c@webmail.iimetro.com.au>

Re this Media Release from Senator the Hon Helen Coonan on 21 June 2006

$116.6 million to Protect Australian Families Online

<http://www.minister.dcita.gov.au/media/media_releases/$116.6_million_to_protect_australian_families_online>

Is this scheme still alive?

<extract>
National Filter Scheme

The National Filter Scheme will receive $93.3 million over three years to
provide Australian families with the technology and support to protect their
children in a rapidly changing online environment. The Internet industry will
continue to offer filters or a filtered service after the initial three year
period, at no cost to families.

Under this scheme, families will be offered a filtered service or a free filter
for their home computer either for download from a dedicated website or
delivered to them on CD-ROM. All ISPs will also be required to offer filters to
new and existing customers at no additional cost.

The filters will allow parents to set access limits based on their own family
values to protect children from offensive content on the Internet and emerging
new mobile content services.

The scheme will be administered by the Department of Communications, Information
Technology and the Arts with the support of NetAlert, and will accredit a panel
of filters for distribution that have been tested and approved by the
Australian Communications and Media Authority (ACMA) for efficacy and minimum
filter standards.

To make it easy for parents to install and operate these systems, filter
providers will be required to offer phone support. NetAlert provides a free
service for parents to seek more generic advice for Internet safety issues that
can be accessed by ringing 1800 880 176.

</extract>

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This message was sent using iiMetro WebMail 
From Fred.Pilcher at act.gov.au  Mon Jan 15 11:47:18 2007
From: Fred.Pilcher at act.gov.au (Pilcher, Fred)
Date: Mon Jan 15 11:47:28 2007
Subject: [LINK] National Filter Scheme
In-Reply-To: <20070115090850.q8p0toxut78gko0c@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
Message-ID: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72062B8009@cal066.act.gov.au>

Bernard wrote:
> Re this Media Release from Senator the Hon Helen Coonan on 21 
> June 2006
> 
> $116.6 million to Protect Australian Families Online
> 
> <http://www.minister.dcita.gov.au/media/media_releases/$116.6_
> million_to_protect_australian_families_online>
> 
> Is this scheme still alive?

I wonder how many - if any - copies of the software were distributed. At $116.6 million, dividing A by B would be an interesting exercise.

Just for interest's sake, if there were any copies distributed, I'd be interested to see a breakdown by O/S, i.e. how many for Windows, Mac, *nix. 

Fred 
  
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From kauer at biplane.com.au  Mon Jan 15 12:02:05 2007
From: kauer at biplane.com.au (Karl Auer)
Date: Mon Jan 15 12:03:14 2007
Subject: [LINK] Research Into Procrastination Shows Surprising
In-Reply-To: <C1D10AD5.68B%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <C1D10AD5.68B%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <1168822926.11906.41.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2007-01-15 at 10:41 +1100, Stewart Fist wrote:
> And, incidentally, I ain't a reporter.  I'm a journalist.

I realise you have your tongue in your cheek, but it reminds me of the
story about the society lass who fussed about at a dinner, making sure
she was seated befitting her station. Finally settled, she turned to the
elderly gent next to her and said "There! I'm so glad that's sorted out,
but these things are *so* important, don't you think?" To which the
elderly gent replied "My dear, those who matter don't mind."

Regards, K.

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/~kauer/                  +61-428-957160 (mob)

From rick at praxis.com.au  Mon Jan 15 12:07:39 2007
From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Mon Jan 15 12:07:54 2007
Subject: [LINK] National Filter Scheme
In-Reply-To: <20070115090850.q8p0toxut78gko0c@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
References: <20070115090850.q8p0toxut78gko0c@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
Message-ID: <45AAD3DB.8090700@praxis.com.au>

brd@iimetro.com.au wrote:

> Re this Media Release from Senator the Hon Helen Coonan on 21 June 2006
> 
> $116.6 million to Protect Australian Families Online
> 
> <http://www.minister.dcita.gov.au/media/media_releases/$116.6_million_to_protect_australian_families_online>
> 
> Is this scheme still alive?
> 
> <extract>
> National Filter Scheme

 From HHGTTG: All that went through the bowl of petunia's mind was this:

"Oh no! Not again!"

I hope this hairbrained scheme is dead. It is a waste of my and yours hard-earned
tax dollars. $116M indeed.


cheers
rickw



-- 
_________________________________
Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services

Almost every man wastes part of his life attempting to display qualities
which he does not possess.
      -- Samuel Johnson
From ahornby at darlug.org  Mon Jan 15 12:16:25 2007
From: ahornby at darlug.org (Anthony W. Hornby)
Date: Mon Jan 15 12:16:40 2007
Subject: [LINK] National Filter Scheme
In-Reply-To: <45AAD3DB.8090700@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <32834740.361168823785527.JavaMail.root@tuxd.darlug.org>

Hmmmm .... $116.6 million.
That would just about cover the federal government spend on advertising in any given year.

Anthony.

ahornby@darlug.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Welykochy" <rick@praxis.com.au>
To: brd@iimetro.com.au
Cc: "link" <link@anu.edu.au>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 10:37:39 AM GMT+0930 Australia/Darwin
Subject: Re: [LINK] National Filter Scheme

brd@iimetro.com.au wrote:

> Re this Media Release from Senator the Hon Helen Coonan on 21 June 2006
> 
> $116.6 million to Protect Australian Families Online
> 
> <http://www.minister.dcita.gov.au/media/media_releases/$116.6_million_to_protect_australian_families_online>
> 
> Is this scheme still alive?
> 
> <extract>
> National Filter Scheme

 From HHGTTG: All that went through the bowl of petunia's mind was this:

"Oh no! Not again!"

I hope this hairbrained scheme is dead. It is a waste of my and yours hard-earned
tax dollars. $116M indeed.


cheers
rickw



-- 
_________________________________
Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services

Almost every man wastes part of his life attempting to display qualities
which he does not possess.
      -- Samuel Johnson
_______________________________________________
Link mailing list
Link@mailman.anu.edu.au
http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link

From kauer at biplane.com.au  Mon Jan 15 12:19:55 2007
From: kauer at biplane.com.au (Karl Auer)
Date: Mon Jan 15 12:21:00 2007
Subject: [LINK] National Filter Scheme
In-Reply-To: <20070115090850.q8p0toxut78gko0c@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
References: <20070115090850.q8p0toxut78gko0c@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
Message-ID: <1168823995.11906.52.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2007-01-15 at 09:08 +0900, brd@iimetro.com.au wrote:
> The National Filter Scheme will receive $93.3 million over three years to

FAAAAAAAAAAAAAARK!

K.

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/~kauer/                  +61-428-957160 (mob)

From link at todd.inoz.com  Mon Jan 15 12:29:37 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Mon Jan 15 13:35:44 2007
Subject: [LINK] National Filter Scheme
In-Reply-To: <04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72062B8009@cal066.act.gov.au
 >
References: <20070115090850.q8p0toxut78gko0c@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
	<04BB2ABCD8D07E42ADCF98494C1A2C72062B8009@cal066.act.gov.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070115122752.0352e2c0@mail.ah.net>

At 11:47 AM 15/01/2007, Pilcher, Fred wrote:
>Bernard wrote:
> > Re this Media Release from Senator the Hon Helen Coonan on 21
> > June 2006
> >
> > $116.6 million to Protect Australian Families Online

EGAT!  And NSW Government gives Neil Shepherd $2+ billion alone on 
"protecting families" under the guise of Child protection.

Perhaps the Federal Government could just save the extra $116 million and 
tell the Agencies in each state to look after it by default!

> > <http://www.minister.dcita.gov.au/media/media_releases/$116.6_> 
> million_to_protect_australian_families_online>
> >
> > Is this scheme still alive?
>
>I wonder how many - if any - copies of the software were distributed. At 
>$116.6 million, dividing A by B would be an interesting exercise.
>
>Just for interest's sake, if there were any copies distributed, I'd be 
>interested to see a breakdown by O/S, i.e. how many for Windows, Mac, *nix.

ROFL!  Windows only Fred!


From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au  Mon Jan 15 13:44:43 2007
From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (Richard Chirgwin)
Date: Mon Jan 15 13:44:54 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070114025707.01021110@melbpc.org.au>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070114025707.01021110@melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <45AAEA9B.7030604@ozemail.com.au>

Debunked, alas, at a thousand miles an hour, as many and various sources 
will now attest.

> One Laptop per Child (OLPC), a non-profit organisation with the goal 
> of providing children in developing nations with laptop computers, 
> today announced that "contrary to previously published reports OLPC 
> has no plans to make the XO laptops available for sale to the general 
> public."
http://www.newswireless.net/index.cfm/article/3130

The mischevious bit of me wonders whether it's a good idea, having 
someone in the third world receive their first contact with the first 
world via a request for tech support on a Linux list but there you go 
... People tend to think of Westerners as being smitten with superiority 
and patronising to the rest of the world, just wait until poor goatherd 
in a 2-hour-per-day school at the edge of a desert tries to ask a 
support question on a *nix wiki ...

"sck off lzr! i'm sick of people who can't be bothered RTFMing clogging 
the list with stooopid support calls as if this were the M$ 1800 number! 
go listn to the wait music with the other dregs!"

RC

Stephen Loosley wrote:
> $100 laptop could sell to public 
> By Darren Waters (snipped)
> Technology editor, BBC News website, Las Vegas 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6246989.stm
>
>
> The backers of the One Laptop Per Child project are looking at the possibility of selling the machine to the public. 
>
> One idea would be for customers to have to buy two laptops at once - with the second going to the developing world. 
>
> Five million of the laptops will be delivered to developing nations this summer, in one of the most ambitious educational exercises ever undertaken. 
>
> Michalis Bletsas, chief connectivity officer for the project, said eBay could be a partner to sell the laptop. 
>
> "If we started selling the laptop now, we would do very good business," Mr Bletsas, speaking at the Consumer Electronics Show, told BBC News. 
>
> "But our focus right now is on the launch in the developing world." ..
>
> The eventual aim is to sell the machine to developing countries for $100 but the current cost of the machine is about $150. 
>
> The first countries to sign up to buying the machine, which is officially dubbed XO, include Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Nigeria, Libya, Pakistan and Thailand. 
>
> The XO's software has been designed to work specifically in an educational context. It has built-in wireless networking and video conferencing so that groups of children can work together. 
>
> The project is also working to ensure that children using the laptop around the world can be in contact. 
>
> The OLPC project is working with Google who will act as "the glue to bind all these kids together". 
>
> The machine is close to a final design
>
> Google will also help the children publish their work on the internet so that the world can observe the "fruits of their labour", said Mr Bletsas. 
>
> He said that the hope was to put the machine on sale to the general public "sometime next year". 
>
> Mr Bletsas said that a philanthropic organisation would be formed to organise the orders and delivery of the laptops. 
>
> "It's much more difficult to do this than making the laptop," he said. 
>
> The aim is to connect the buyer of the laptop with the child in the developing world who receives the machine. 
>
> "They will get the e-mail address of the kid in the developing world that they have, in effect, sponsored." 
>
> Mr Bletsas was speaking amidst the festival of consumerism taking place on the show floor of CES. 
> --
>
> Cheers people
> Stephen Loosley
> Victoria, Astralia
>
>
>   
From rick at praxis.com.au  Mon Jan 15 14:08:44 2007
From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Mon Jan 15 14:09:04 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <45AAEA9B.7030604@ozemail.com.au>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070114025707.01021110@melbpc.org.au>
	<45AAEA9B.7030604@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <45AAF03C.7030803@praxis.com.au>

Richard Chirgwin wrote:

> Debunked, alas, at a thousand miles an hour, as many and various sources 
> will now attest.
> 
>> One Laptop per Child (OLPC), a non-profit organisation with the goal 
>> of providing children in developing nations with laptop computers, 
>> today announced that "contrary to previously published reports OLPC 
>> has no plans to make the XO laptops available for sale to the general 
>> public."

I predict a surge in backpackers visiting third world countries
to buy real cheap laptops from the poor who would rather feed themselves
than compute. Laptop tourism replaces eco tourism, so to speak.

cheers
rickw



-- 
_________________________________
Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services

Almost every man wastes part of his life attempting to display qualities
which he does not possess.
      -- Samuel Johnson
From ivan at itrundle.com  Mon Jan 15 15:17:27 2007
From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle)
Date: Mon Jan 15 15:17:50 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <45AAFC51.2010305@lannet.com.au>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070114025707.01021110@melbpc.org.au>	<45AAEA9B.7030604@ozemail.com.au>
	<45AAF03C.7030803@praxis.com.au> <45AAFC51.2010305@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <A0D8F2C1-1911-4E99-AFF1-CE82F7D415A9@itrundle.com>


On 15/01/2007, at 3:00 PM, Howard Lowndes wrote:
>
> Rick Welykochy wrote:
>> Richard Chirgwin wrote:
>>> Debunked, alas, at a thousand miles an hour, as many and various  
>>> sources will now attest.
>>>
>>>> One Laptop per Child (OLPC), a non-profit organisation with the  
>>>> goal of providing children in developing nations with laptop  
>>>> computers, today announced that "contrary to previously  
>>>> published reports OLPC has no plans to make the XO laptops  
>>>> available for sale to the general public."
>> I predict a surge in backpackers visiting third world countries
>> to buy real cheap laptops from the poor who would rather feed  
>> themselves
>> than compute. Laptop tourism replaces eco tourism, so to speak.
>
> They could also usefully put then up on Ebay  :)

OLPC issued a press release suggesting that they will not be sold  
commercially (buy two, get one free):

http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp? 
ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20070112005706&newsLang=en

...when it is blindingly obvious that there are people who would pay  
more than $100 for these machines. I can see a market for them  
appearing the moment that the first one is issued. And in any event,  
there are people who would sell them for LESS than market value to  
pay for their own food or shelter.

OLPC also said in the same press release that the pricing goal will  
start 'near $100 and then steadily decrease'. Won't take long to make  
them disposable commodities, then.

Now how about inventing one food basket per child (OFBPC?

iT
From grove at zeta.org.au  Mon Jan 15 15:26:10 2007
From: grove at zeta.org.au (grove@zeta.org.au)
Date: Mon Jan 15 15:26:27 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <45AAFC51.2010305@lannet.com.au>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070114025707.01021110@melbpc.org.au>
	<45AAEA9B.7030604@ozemail.com.au> <45AAF03C.7030803@praxis.com.au>
	<45AAFC51.2010305@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701151523060.4008@zathras.uws.edu.au>

I have spoken to someone who has tried one.

He said they take an inordinate amount of time to boot.

The GUI is very unresponsive and the icons don't seem to have any context.

He said there's some sort of Python backend to the GUI - and if you 
are waiting for activity, don't click on too many objects at once or you'll
end up waiting an eternity.


rachel

-- 
Rachel Polanskis                 Kingswood, Greater Western Sydney, Australia
grove@zeta.org.au                http://www.zeta.org.au/~grove/grove.html
 	"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security,
 	deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin, 1759
From brd at iimetro.com.au  Mon Jan 15 16:21:48 2007
From: brd at iimetro.com.au (brd@iimetro.com.au)
Date: Mon Jan 15 16:22:00 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701151523060.4008@zathras.uws.edu.au>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070114025707.01021110@melbpc.org.au>
	<45AAEA9B.7030604@ozemail.com.au> <45AAF03C.7030803@praxis.com.au>
	<45AAFC51.2010305@lannet.com.au>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0701151523060.4008@zathras.uws.edu.au>
Message-ID: <20070115142148.ntryoykjw9sgs88s@webmail.iimetro.com.au>

Is it just me or is this yet another technology solution looking for a 
problem?

Reminds me of this story, broadcast on Counterpoint in December
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/counterpoint/stories/2006/1808567.htm

<extract>
David O'Connor: Yes, I was in Mongolia, the capital Ulaanbaatar, and I was
working as a kind of a journalist but not in the way that Europeans 
think of as
journalists but I was helping them to try to develop a better 
journalism. I was
sent by Australian Volunteers International which is part funded by AusAid, so
I guess I was part of the spending of Australian foreign aid. But I had a
particular experience with AusAid which was that this is a city of one million
people which generates a lot of rubbish and the old system was there was a
large container placed outside each block of flats, a very, very large steel
container, which was collected and replaced every week. Associated with every
container there were scavengers that would get into it, they would take out
everything that was recyclable and they would sell it. They lived in the
street...this is minus 30 degrees during winter and they lived in the street,
and they lived from this money they got from the recycling.

AusAid and World Bank got together and decided this was not an 
efficient garbage
system and they brought in a consultant from Australia on a very large salary.
The average income in Mongolia is something in the order of $2 a day, and he
was on something in the order of $200 a day. He came for a few weeks, 
consulted
with bureaucrats like him who sat in offices, and they came up with a scheme
whereby the old containers were removed, smaller wheelie bins were placed
around the place.

They bought a whole lot of Chinese trucks that had special compacting 
equipment
and they could automatically pick up these wheelie bins and empty them, this
would be a much more efficient system. They took away the old bins. The 
problem
was that the scavengers couldn't get into the new wheelie bins, so they threw
the garbage out onto the ground so they could go through it and scavenge
everything, which meant that every truck had to have two extra staff to shovel
the rubbish back into the wheelie bins so the truck could automatically 
lift up
the bin and put it inside.

They recycled the old, big cans, but people began to complain that the rubbish
was always on the ground. There wasn't enough consideration given to
maintenance of the trucks so they all broke down because they get pretty hard
wear in that sort of weather. The trucks broke down, the wheelie bins broke,
the trucks were removed, they didn't work any more, the wheelie bins were
removed because they all broke up, the garbage was just left lying on the
ground. They then instituted a system where a truck came round once a week and
you had to leave your house when you heard the truck beeping its horn, you
would leave your house carrying your garbage and put it in the bin. So the
scavengers were also out of work.

</extract>

-- 
Regards
brd

Bernard Robertson-Dunn
Sydney Australia
brd@iimetro.com.au

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From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au  Mon Jan 15 20:49:16 2007
From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au)
Date: Mon Jan 15 20:49:27 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <20070115142148.ntryoykjw9sgs88s@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070114025707.01021110@melbpc.org.au>	<45AAEA9B.7030604@ozemail.com.au>
	<45AAF03C.7030803@praxis.com.au>	<45AAFC51.2010305@lannet.com.au>	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0701151523060.4008@zathras.uws.edu.au>
	<20070115142148.ntryoykjw9sgs88s@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
Message-ID: <45AB4E1C.2020903@ozemail.com.au>

Bernard, your scepticism disappoints me. If you have a computer, you 
will eat: after all, we all have computers and we eat quite well.

And the scheme is the brainchild of the Most Fertile Brain, MIT doyen 
and so on.

Bow the knee, anarchist!

OK. Sarcasm over, lowest form of wit and so on. The entire scheme is 
wonderful publicity and that's *all*. It makes me wonder if it wasn't at 
first dreamed up by Alan Abel. "I'll bet I can get some big-brain to 
believe he can solve the world's problems with a computer..."

It's yet another example of the IT media's hero-syndrome. The merits of 
an idea have nothing to do with anything: it's the personality, and "who 
do you follow" (another current example is iPhone, which is now divided 
along party-lines. I am the only Mac user I know who isn't already 
counting the days until an Australian release).

RC

brd@iimetro.com.au wrote:

> Is it just me or is this yet another technology solution looking for a 
> problem?
>
> Reminds me of this story, broadcast on Counterpoint in December
> http://www.abc.net.au/rn/counterpoint/stories/2006/1808567.htm
>
> <extract>
> David O'Connor: Yes, I was in Mongolia, the capital Ulaanbaatar, and I 
> was
> working as a kind of a journalist but not in the way that Europeans 
> think of as
> journalists but I was helping them to try to develop a better 
> journalism. I was
> sent by Australian Volunteers International which is part funded by 
> AusAid, so
> I guess I was part of the spending of Australian foreign aid. But I had a
> particular experience with AusAid which was that this is a city of one 
> million
> people which generates a lot of rubbish and the old system was there 
> was a
> large container placed outside each block of flats, a very, very large 
> steel
> container, which was collected and replaced every week. Associated 
> with every
> container there were scavengers that would get into it, they would 
> take out
> everything that was recyclable and they would sell it. They lived in the
> street...this is minus 30 degrees during winter and they lived in the 
> street,
> and they lived from this money they got from the recycling.
>
> AusAid and World Bank got together and decided this was not an 
> efficient garbage
> system and they brought in a consultant from Australia on a very large 
> salary.
> The average income in Mongolia is something in the order of $2 a day, 
> and he
> was on something in the order of $200 a day. He came for a few weeks, 
> consulted
> with bureaucrats like him who sat in offices, and they came up with a 
> scheme
> whereby the old containers were removed, smaller wheelie bins were placed
> around the place.
>
> They bought a whole lot of Chinese trucks that had special compacting 
> equipment
> and they could automatically pick up these wheelie bins and empty 
> them, this
> would be a much more efficient system. They took away the old bins. 
> The problem
> was that the scavengers couldn't get into the new wheelie bins, so 
> they threw
> the garbage out onto the ground so they could go through it and scavenge
> everything, which meant that every truck had to have two extra staff 
> to shovel
> the rubbish back into the wheelie bins so the truck could 
> automatically lift up
> the bin and put it inside.
>
> They recycled the old, big cans, but people began to complain that the 
> rubbish
> was always on the ground. There wasn't enough consideration given to
> maintenance of the trucks so they all broke down because they get 
> pretty hard
> wear in that sort of weather. The trucks broke down, the wheelie bins 
> broke,
> the trucks were removed, they didn't work any more, the wheelie bins were
> removed because they all broke up, the garbage was just left lying on the
> ground. They then instituted a system where a truck came round once a 
> week and
> you had to leave your house when you heard the truck beeping its horn, 
> you
> would leave your house carrying your garbage and put it in the bin. So 
> the
> scavengers were also out of work.
>
> </extract>
>
From ivan at itrundle.com  Mon Jan 15 22:08:06 2007
From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle)
Date: Mon Jan 15 22:08:27 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <45AB4E1C.2020903@ozemail.com.au>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070114025707.01021110@melbpc.org.au>	<45AAEA9B.7030604@ozemail.com.au>
	<45AAF03C.7030803@praxis.com.au>	<45AAFC51.2010305@lannet.com.au>	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0701151523060.4008@zathras.uws.edu.au>
	<20070115142148.ntryoykjw9sgs88s@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
	<45AB4E1C.2020903@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <0BA16B99-DEAC-4EF3-A660-C41E3B2A6CFE@itrundle.com>


On 15/01/2007, at 8:49 PM, rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote:

> It's yet another example of the IT media's hero-syndrome. The  
> merits of an idea have nothing to do with anything: it's the  
> personality, and "who do you follow" (another current example is  
> iPhone, which is now divided along party-lines. I am the only Mac  
> user I know who isn't already counting the days until an Australian  
> release).

No you're not! Add me to you list of one.

On the other hand, I do think that the multi-touch (?) approach on  
the phone Is A Good Thing - but to date, few have considered or  
explored the ramifications of what the device's interface can offer.  
But bugger the phone, and the 'He's a Messiah' approach (though it's  
so rare to have a good showman in the IT world, so I guess it jars a  
tad to have someone who can actually sell something to the public,  
even if it isn't any good).

T

--
Ivan Trundle
http://itrundle.com ivan@itrundle.com
ph: +61 (0)418 244 259 fx: +61 (0)2 6286 8742
skype: callto://ivanovitchk


From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Mon Jan 15 22:51:29 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Mon Jan 15 22:54:54 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <0BA16B99-DEAC-4EF3-A660-C41E3B2A6CFE@itrundle.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070114025707.01021110@melbpc.org.au>
	<45AAEA9B.7030604@ozemail.com.au> <45AAF03C.7030803@praxis.com.au>
	<45AAFC51.2010305@lannet.com.au>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0701151523060.4008@zathras.uws.edu.au>
	<20070115142148.ntryoykjw9sgs88s@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
	<45AB4E1C.2020903@ozemail.com.au>
	<0BA16B99-DEAC-4EF3-A660-C41E3B2A6CFE@itrundle.com>
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$26mas3@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 10:08 PM 15/01/2007, Ivan Trundle wrote:
>On the other hand, I do think that the multi-touch (?) approach on
>the phone Is A Good Thing - but to date, few have considered or
>explored the ramifications of what the device's interface can offer.

...except if you have a vision impairment and the interface doesn't 
offer a voice overlay. The VIP community reckons it will eventually 
be made accessible, though.


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au  Mon Jan 15 23:42:19 2007
From: glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au (Glen Turner)
Date: Mon Jan 15 23:42:30 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <45AB4E1C.2020903@ozemail.com.au>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070114025707.01021110@melbpc.org.au>	<45AAEA9B.7030604@ozemail.com.au>	<45AAF03C.7030803@praxis.com.au>	<45AAFC51.2010305@lannet.com.au>	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0701151523060.4008@zathras.uws.edu.au>	<20070115142148.ntryoykjw9sgs88s@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
	<45AB4E1C.2020903@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <45AB76AB.6040705@aarnet.edu.au>

rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote:

> OK. Sarcasm over, lowest form of wit and so on. The entire scheme is 
> wonderful publicity and that's *all*. It makes me wonder if it wasn't at 
> first dreamed up by Alan Abel. "I'll bet I can get some big-brain to 
> believe he can solve the world's problems with a computer..."

I'm not sure that educators are buying into the hype.

India pretty much gave OLPC a dressing down -- no courseware,
no curriculum material, cultural ignorance (India had trouble
getting its teachers to stop rote reading from a textbook and
to use blackboards and OLPC hadn't really addressed how to get
them to make the step to a PC), no train-the-trainer materials
and a cost equal to entire current the non-salary schooling
budget.

Most countries that have agreed are strong on words like
"trial" and "rigorous evaluation". Read between the lines
of the article on the NT schools and you see the same thing.
Basically the NT article says that they are thinking of
trialling the OLPC.


I'm not sure that OLPC can sell the machine commercially.
Firstly, it reinforces educators' skepticism that this is
a laptop project and not an education project, and that
perception can kill the OLPC project.  You'll notice how
quickly Prof Negroponte hosed down commercial sales, and
he's the one doing the negotiations.

Secondly, it's not worth the effort. OLPC would need to
provide warranties, to package the machine in lots of
one, to provide repairs, etc, etc.  And after facing
all these costs if the OLPC is a successful seller Dell,
Acer, etc will cherry-pick the features into their machines
and OLPC won't see any long-run revenue.

The problem with not selling the machine commercially is
that it puts out of the running the commercial businesses
that currently support school IT, taking with it most of
the IT knowledge the school may have had.


I'm not sure how fair criticism of the machine's design
is. The last computer designed from the ground-up for schools
was the BBC Micro. That's an amazingly long time ago and maybe
no one knows what a schooling-specific computer should look
like anymore.

What does concern me is the grandness of the plan given the
uncertainty (which implies that iterative design, fielding and
evaluation is likely).  Certainly the UK was very lucky
that Acorn had a fine machine to offer as the BBC Micro.

Also worrying is the funding mechanism -- it looks like
OLPC are working with a number of development banks, which
is a bit odd as you'd think it would be the countries themselves
talking with the development banks.

The deal with Rwanda reads as though it is simply signing up as
a way to enter the Modern World, which is a bit cargo cultish.

> It's yet another example of the IT media's hero-syndrome. The merits of 
> an idea have nothing to do with anything: it's the personality, and "who 
> do you follow" (another current example is iPhone, which is now divided 
> along party-lines. I am the only Mac user I know who isn't already 
> counting the days until an Australian release).

Some of us own Mac hardware that has never run Apple software :-)

To give Apple credit, they do have good execution of good ideas. Not
necessarily their own ideas -- Creative existed before the iPod,
iRiver did a fine flash player before the iPod Mano, there were
small form factor PCs before the Mac Mini.  But the execution
of those ideas has been very fine in recent years.

And it looks like the iPhone might be the same. Nokia and Motorola
have really not done a great deal with the smartphone concept,
pretty much pandering to the network operator's visions of
expensive walled gardens. And there's no doubt that they've
been caught napping, first by RIM and now by Apple.

> The mischevious bit of me wonders whether it's a good idea,
> having someone in the third world receive their first contact
> with the first world via a request for tech support on a Linux
> list but there you go ... People tend to think of Westerners as
>  being smitten with superiority and patronising to the rest of
> the world, just wait until poor goatherd in a 2-hour-per-day
> school at the edge of a desert tries to ask a support question
> on a *nix wiki ...

I think the poor goatherd gets the last laugh when she later works
in a IT support call centre and makes redundant the cushy and overpaid
job of the Westerner :-)

Read Craigslist to see just how much the fine people of Silicon
Valley appreciate just a small amount of their business moving
elsewhere.

From glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au  Tue Jan 16 04:42:28 2007
From: glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au (Glen Turner)
Date: Tue Jan 16 04:42:41 2007
Subject: [LINK] National Filter Scheme
In-Reply-To: <20070115090850.q8p0toxut78gko0c@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
References: <20070115090850.q8p0toxut78gko0c@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
Message-ID: <45ABBD04.2010108@aarnet.edu.au>

brd@iimetro.com.au wrote:

> The scheme will be administered by the Department of Communications, Information
> Technology and the Arts with the support of NetAlert, and will accredit a panel
> of filters for distribution that have been tested and approved by the
> Australian Communications and Media Authority (ACMA) for efficacy and minimum
> filter standards.

Certainly the efficacy of filters needs to be improved.  There are a large
number of false positives in most filters. A policy to have universal use of
filters implies that serious work on reducing false positives needs to occur
as this threatens some major public health projects: the last serious look
at these filters showed they caught HIV information, breastfeeding information,
and sex education (including the information distributed by the SA govt's
Child and Youth Health).

I wonder if ACMA will make the test plan public so that public health and
other agencies get an opportunity to state their requirements of filters.

> The Government will keep ISP-level Internet content filtering technology under
> regular review and will conduct another trial of ISP-level filtering technology
> in Tasmania.

This is rigging the results. Tasmania is the simple case for ISP
filtering as speeds off the island are slow, average load is low
and the exit points are geographically close so there need not
be much replication of filtering equipment.

All the filtering equipment I've seen has been totally unsuited
for use in a large ISP environment. They are basically no more
than PCs. And being implemented in software rather than hardware
they are open to a huge range of complexity-related attacks. [1]

I'd really like to see ACMA's evaluation criteria, as I suspect
they are a tad naive.

> ACMA will be required to provide an annual report on international trends
> in ISP-level filtering and will work closely with NetAlert to investigate
> technological improvements in filtering technology.

Just bloody marvellous. There are a few startups in this space,
mainly hardware firewall firms looking to widen their market.
I really hope the government isn't going to require us to buy
equipment from the leading two of these, since they both seem
to be headed for bankruptcy. I've already been stuffed about by
one failed startup and have no desire to go through all that
again. There's a huge gulf between "technologically",
"deployable" and "financially prudent".  Again, I like to see
how ACMA's evaluation criteria address this.

Cheers, Glen.


  [1] Every search algorithm has a worst case, usually 10-1000 times worse.
      So we can send various URLs through the system and observe the
      changing jitter.  We collect together the worse cases and use that
      to derive information about the implementation -- such as the
      number of hash buckets, or the URLs at the bottom of the search
      tree. We then use that information to simply request a set of
      URLs from the ISP, maybe 10Mbps or so of GET requests.  The
      filtering box overloads (seeing the equivalent of 100Mbps to
      100Gbps of requests because of the algorithmic complexity in
      dealing with our carefully chosen 10Mbps), dropping the ISP.
      The attack can be launched from outside the ISP since the ISP
      is going to need to filter both incoming and outgoing URLs.

      This isn't at all theoretical. There was a lot of work done on
      Linux about a year ago to reduce as far as possible its
      vulnerability to algorithmic complexity attacks after some
      devastating demos (including dropping a box using a 10Kbps
      stream). Similarly the Snort intrusion detector has had a
      run of algorithmic attacks by people wanting to drop the
      Snort box before doing nasty stuff.

      That's why ISPs are keen only to have hardware forwarding devices
      in the packet's path. The hardware runs at the worst case speed
      (although very quickly) so there's no way to make it run worse
      by fiddling with traffic contents.

      Where we do have PCs in the forwarding path they are for
      monitoring and attach using a passive optical splitter.
      The PC sees one copy of the data and the router the other
      copy.  The router forwards its copy, so the router cares
      not if the PC is running or not.
From ivan at itrundle.com  Tue Jan 16 08:34:34 2007
From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle)
Date: Tue Jan 16 08:35:01 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <5ii0ro$26mas3@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070114025707.01021110@melbpc.org.au>
	<45AAEA9B.7030604@ozemail.com.au> <45AAF03C.7030803@praxis.com.au>
	<45AAFC51.2010305@lannet.com.au>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0701151523060.4008@zathras.uws.edu.au>
	<20070115142148.ntryoykjw9sgs88s@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
	<45AB4E1C.2020903@ozemail.com.au>
	<0BA16B99-DEAC-4EF3-A660-C41E3B2A6CFE@itrundle.com>
	<5ii0ro$26mas3@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <F7E58AA0-5B14-432B-B5FD-1ED37AE154D9@itrundle.com>


On 15/01/2007, at 10:51 PM, Jan Whitaker wrote:

> At 10:08 PM 15/01/2007, Ivan Trundle wrote:
>> On the other hand, I do think that the multi-touch (?) approach on
>> the phone Is A Good Thing - but to date, few have considered or
>> explored the ramifications of what the device's interface can offer.
>
> ....except if you have a vision impairment and the interface  
> doesn't offer a voice overlay. The VIP community reckons it will  
> eventually be made accessible, though.

That's exactly why I thought it would be a real asset for vision- 
impaired: current tactile input devices are not perfect, and  
generally inflexible in function (other than shift/control/option/alt  
derivatives).

Of course, a voice overlay or some other form of auditory feedback  
would be required to make multi-touch useful, but I see great  
potential here. The fact that you don't have to be precise with  
hitting the right button or key, but rather use gestures, is surely  
an improvement on multi-button devices (and nondescript in function  
unless you know where you're at on the keyboard).

When I saw a working demo of multi-touch last year, I began to wonder  
about its potential in many other applications (but funnily enough,  
didn't consider phones or iPods at the time).

iT

ps. How much did the people who produced the movie, Minority Report,  
know of this?
From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au  Fri Jan 12 10:12:22 2007
From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington)
Date: Tue Jan 16 09:38:25 2007
Subject: [LINK] ICT industry in Australia, Canberra, 7 March 2007
Message-ID: <20070115223812.70A1E115B0@heartbeat2.messagingengine.com>

Linkers are welcome to attend this free seminar I have arranged with 
the CEO of the Australian Information Industry Association. No need 
to book, just turn up:

---
DCS SEMINAR SERIES

http://cecs.anu.edu.au/seminars/showone.pl?SID=352

The ICT industry in Australia
Sheryle Moon, Chief Executive Officer (Australian Information 
Industry Association (AIIA))

DATE: 2007-03-07
TIME: 16:00:00 - 17:00:00
LOCATION: Department of Computer Science, ANU, Seminar Room, N101, 
Computer Science and Information Technology (CSIT) Building, North 
Road, Building 108 <http://cs.anu.edu.au/building.php>

ABSTRACT: The Australian Information Industry Association (AIIA) 
leads the ICT industry in Australia, with almost 500 member companies 
that generate combined annual revenues of more than $40 billion, 
employ 100,000 Australians and export more than $2 billion in goods 
and services each year.

This talk will discuss the strategic direction of the Australian ICT 
industry and needed changes in public policy to accelerate business growth.

BIO: Sheryle Moon is the Chief Executive Officer of the AIIA. Sheryle 
has worked in the ICT sector for more than 25 years in senior 
leadership positions including Vice President of Computer Sciences 
Corporation, and a managing partner with Accenture. In 1999, she was 
named Australian Business Woman of the Year, and she sits on a number 
of Australian Government advisory boards.

Ms Moon has a Bachelor of Economics and a number of postgraduate 
qualifications, including a Masters of Management in Technology.
---

Some links in the blogged version at 
<http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/2007/01/ict-industry-in-australia-canberra-7.html>.



Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150
Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd            ABN: 17 088 714 309
PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617                http://www.tomw.net.au/
Visiting Fellow, ANU      Blog: http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/atom.xml  

From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Tue Jan 16 09:45:49 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Tue Jan 16 09:50:02 2007
Subject: multi-touch screens [was: Re: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public]
In-Reply-To: <F7E58AA0-5B14-432B-B5FD-1ED37AE154D9@itrundle.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070114025707.01021110@melbpc.org.au>
	<45AAEA9B.7030604@ozemail.com.au> <45AAF03C.7030803@praxis.com.au>
	<45AAFC51.2010305@lannet.com.au>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0701151523060.4008@zathras.uws.edu.au>
	<20070115142148.ntryoykjw9sgs88s@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
	<45AB4E1C.2020903@ozemail.com.au>
	<0BA16B99-DEAC-4EF3-A660-C41E3B2A6CFE@itrundle.com>
	<5ii0ro$26mas3@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
	<F7E58AA0-5B14-432B-B5FD-1ED37AE154D9@itrundle.com>
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$26s0l7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 08:34 AM 16/01/2007, Ivan Trundle wrote:
>That's exactly why I thought it would be a real asset for vision- 
>impaired: current tactile input devices are not perfect, and
>generally inflexible in function (other than shift/control/option/alt
>derivatives).

Are you saying there is some tactile response within the screen? 
Looks like a flat piece of vinyl to me where the information is just 
the visual picture or keyboard. If you can't see them, you can't move them.

>Of course, a voice overlay or some other form of auditory feedback
>would be required to make multi-touch useful, but I see great
>potential here. The fact that you don't have to be precise with
>hitting the right button or key, but rather use gestures, is surely
>an improvement on multi-button devices (and nondescript in function
>unless you know where you're at on the keyboard).

Gestures of what? There has to be a feedback loop of some sort. At 
least with a limited number of keys the user can implement functions. 
I don't look at my keyboard (how many keys?) because I'm a touch 
typist. I just closed y eyes and think I didn't make too many 
mistakes, but I think I'll open them now.  Gee - only missed the m in 
my! If this was a flat panel, I'm sure the error rate would have been 
astounding.


>ps. How much did the people who produced the movie, Minority Report,
>know of this?

http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/Science-Fiction-News.asp?NewsNum=898 
for a comparison for you.


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Tue Jan 16 09:47:45 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Tue Jan 16 09:54:54 2007
Subject: [LINK] National Filter Scheme
In-Reply-To: <45ABBD04.2010108@aarnet.edu.au>
References: <20070115090850.q8p0toxut78gko0c@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
	<45ABBD04.2010108@aarnet.edu.au>
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$26s2og@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 04:42 AM 16/01/2007, Glen Turner wrote:
>I wonder if ACMA will make the test plan public so that public health and
>other agencies get an opportunity to state their requirements of filters.

The issue of health info as a way to bypass the filters led me to 
think of new bypass strategies by porn spammers: just add the word 
health and you're through! ;-)


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From brd at iimetro.com.au  Tue Jan 16 10:22:13 2007
From: brd at iimetro.com.au (brd@iimetro.com.au)
Date: Tue Jan 16 10:22:22 2007
Subject: [LINK] Dissent over Canberra's card
Message-ID: <20070116082213.5vjf1umd93a4ggog@webmail.iimetro.com.au>

Dissent over Canberra's card
Karen Dearne
JANUARY 16, 2007
The Australian
http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,21064133%5E15306%5E%5Enbv%5E,00.html

GRASSROOTS opposition to the federal Government's welfare services access card
is building, with campaigners saying Joe Hockey's proposal, despite Government
reassurances, is "indistinguishable from a national identity scheme".

About 120 individuals and groups have made submissions on the draft access card
bill, released on December 13, even though the tight, one-month, public comment
period fell over the holidays.

The Human Services minister plans to introduce the bill into federal parliament
next month, but the draft has been slammed as "seriously inadequate", with many
key issues to be decided later and included in a second round of legislation.

Tim Warner, convenor of Access Card No Way, said the campaign now boasted "an
active cadre of citizens to oppose this illiberal program", with volunteers in
every state.

"We believe that any national ID scheme is a tragic mistake," he said. "The
inadequacies in this draft are deeply disturbing, given the enormous shift this
legislation represents.

"No inquiry, no debate and certainly no parliamentary discussion has occurred on
whether anti-fraud measures require a national register. Instead, the debate is
over what sort of register should be introduced."

Mr Warner said the draft was like a "Lego set", with many key aspects yet to be
decided and introduced by additional legislation or regulation.

"The lackadaisical air is astounding," he said. "Oversight and governance, the
interaction with existing entitlement systems and mechanisms for handling card
suspensions and lost or stolen cards are fundamental to whether this will be an
intolerable yoke around every citizen's neck.

"We need to know now what is intended and whether better ways can be found, or
the whole proposal stopped, before huge sums of public money are diverted from
worthwhile purposes."

The "clear call for data extension at the whim of the minister or secretary"
made public statements about the future of the card "meaningless and
temporary", he said.

The notion that people would own their cards was laughable, Mr Warner said.
"Under the bill, one's own address, telephone number, email address and
photograph are all declared Crown property.

"Granting a meaningless property right in the card plastic is a very tawdry
joke."

Australian Privacy Foundation policy co-ordinator Nigel Waters said a key
problem was that information was being "dripped out in instalments".

"As a result, it's impossible to assess the complete package," he said. "A great
many important aspects have not been addressed to date, yet these are
inextricably linked to whether the proposed system will work in accordance with
the stated aims.

"For example, unless issues related to dependants and carers are dealt with,
there's no way of telling if the system can deliver efficient and
privacy-sensitive Medicare services to all citizens."

Until draft legislation was provided on all issues central to the access card's
operation, there was no meaningful basis on which to assess the proposal.

"It is therefore not appropriate to introduce any legislation until these
matters have been dealt with," Mr Waters said. "The APF submits that the bill
cannot be sent forward at this stage."

Access Card Office chief technology architect Marie Johnson said the legislation
clearly spelled out that the card was not a national identity card.

"There is no requirement for anyone to carry the card at all times, or to use it
for identity purposes other than to access health and social services benefits,"
she said.

"The proposed legislation contains severe penalties of up to five years' jail
for anyone else who demands it as a form of identity."

Ms Johnson said the Government's release of the exposure draft "before taking it
directly to Parliament" demonstrated its commitment to wide community
consultation.

Welfare Rights Centre policy officer Gerard Thomas said the costs of introducing
the card were a problem.

"If the costs rise beyond the $1.1 billion price-tag, as many suggest, will the
funding gap be met by cuts to services and programs vital to the very
disadvantaged people for whom the card is essentially compulsory?" Mr Thomas
asked.



-- 
Regards
brd

Bernard Robertson-Dunn
Sydney Australia
brd@iimetro.com.au

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using iiMetro WebMail 
From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Tue Jan 16 10:22:07 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Tue Jan 16 10:24:31 2007
Subject: [LINK] certificates
In-Reply-To: <200701150101.l0F11OBt000526@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <C1D257CF.690%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>


> 
> Re: [LINK] certificates

It seems to me that we got a lot of security in our early computerised
financial dealings (in the days before the internet) when we used the old
dial-up phone system to make a direct connection to the bank computer.

It wasn't bad for e-mail, either.

With my trusty Teletype 33 printer-terminal and a 300 baud modem I was able
to conduct international transactions which involved the payment of fairly
large sums of money - with little thought of problems.

Maybe, if phone calls are migrating to VoIP and onto the internet, the
redundant dial-and-switch telephone system can become the preferred (and
relatively-secure) network for conducting financial transactions.


Don't you sometimes feel that we are stretching the limits of the
unregulated internet beyond its capabilities?  Certificates, biometrics, and
the like often seem to me to be constructing authentication-mountains to
solve mole-hill problems.

-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458



From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Tue Jan 16 10:30:59 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Tue Jan 16 10:33:21 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <200701150953.l0F9pS4t021272@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <C1D259E3.692%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>

I wonder how many metres of water-pipe that $100 would buy, if these
philanthropic organisation became interested in public health before wanking
educational projects.


-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458


From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Tue Jan 16 11:00:16 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Tue Jan 16 11:02:42 2007
Subject: [LINK] Florida vote counting
Message-ID: <C1D260C0.693%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>

Note the mention of Florida attorney-general Katherine Harris who designed
the famous Florida butterfly-ballot papers which got George Bush elected
(while also running the Florida Republican campaign).

Also note the emergence of serious machine undercounting of votes -- which
appears to have increased to flood proportions in this most recent US
election.

Apparently a lot of Americans are willing to get up early and stand in line
for a couple of hours to vote at a polling station.  But then they go into
the booth and don't bother to register a vote on the machine.

Very strange people, the Americans.


-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458


----------------


December 29. 2006 5:06PM
Judge rules against Jennings, Democrats to seat Buchanan


ASSOCIATED PRESS


TALLAHASSEE -- A judge ruled Friday that congressional aspirant Christine
Jennings has no right to examine the programming source code that runs the
electronic voting machines at the center of a disputed Southwest Florida
congressional race.

Circuit Judge William Gary ruled that Jennings' arguments about the
possibility of lost votes were "conjecture," and didn't warrant overriding
the trade secrets of the voting machine company.

Democrats in Congress meanwhile, said they'd allow Republican Vern Buchanan
to take the seat next Thursday, but with a warning that the inquiry wasn't
over and that his hold on it could be temporary.

The state has certified Buchanan the winner of the District 13 race by a
scant 369 votes.

The ruling Friday from Judge Gary prevents for now the Jennings camp from
being able to use the programming code to try to show voting machines used
in Sarasota County malfunctioned. Jennings claims that an unusually large
number of undervotes _ ballots that didn't show a vote _ recorded in the
race implies the machines lost the votes.

"The judge has reaffirmed that there is no merit to Christine Jennings'
baseless allegations that the voting machines malfunctioned," Buchanan
spokeswoman Sally Tibbetts said in a statement released by his campaign. "As
noted by the judge in today's ruling, two parallel tests conducted by the
state revealed '100 percent accuracy of the equipment in reporting the vote
selections.'"

Reggie Mitchell, a lawyer for People for the American Way, a group working
with the Jennings campaign in challenging the election results, said the
judge's decision would likely be appealed.

"We'd like to get (the code) and prove our case as opposed to listening to
the state and (the voting machine company's) theories," Mitchell said.
Jennings still has a complaint filed before Congress, which is the ultimate
arbiter of who will fill the seat. The seat is being vacated by Rep.
Katherine Harris, a Republican who unsuccessfully ran for the Senate.

"The House has the power to collect evidence and make a decision about who,
if anyone, was duly elected to represent the people of the 13th district,"
U.S. Rep. Rush Holt, D-N.J., said Friday before the judge's ruling. Holt
plans to make an official statement next week making it clear that by
seating Buchanan, the House isn't forfeiting the right to reverse that
decision later.

"No one who is in a disputed election like this should get too comfortable
in the House of Representatives," Holt said in a news conference at the
Capitol.

But that was before Gary put a dent in Jennings' plans with his ruling
Friday, in which he said that testimony by experts for Jennings about how
unlikely it was that voters would have chosen to simply skip the race was
merely "conjecture."

Drew Hammill, a spokesman for incoming House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif.,
said that the judge's ruling Friday didn't change plans by the House to
investigate the election, and also noted that the ruling isn't final because
Jennings can appeal.

But Democrats have no plans to block Buchanan from taking the seat, deciding
the people of the southwest Florida district should have representation
while the contest is being decided, Hammill said.

"This is the best way to maintain representation for Florida District 13
while allowing the two appropriate challenges to run their course," said
Hammill.

Jennings said she agreed.

"I think it's the right thing to do, to seat Vern Buchanan temporarily while
we gather evidence," Jennings said before Gary's ruling. "But I am pursuing
this and I do believe I will end up being the representative for the people
of the 13th District."

Neither Jennings nor her lawyers could be immediately reached following
Gary's ruling.

Holt said Democrats were sending a message that the winner of the seat
should be decided deliberately.

"This is not going to be a Congress where procedural matters are determined
by brute force," he said. But, he said he believed the evidence would show
that the vote was marred and there was a good possibility Jennings would
ultimately be seated.

The electronic touch-screen machines used in Sarasota County are at the
center of the challenge.

Some 18,000 Sarasota County electronic ballots did not register a vote in
the race, a much higher undervote rate _ nearly 15 percent _ than in others
such as those for governor or U.S. Senate. Jennings contends the machines
lost the votes. Buchanan backers and the company say that if there was an
unusually large undervote it was likely because of bad ballot design.

The state found no evidence of malfunctions in the machines, which were made
by Election Systems & Software. 

From ivan at itrundle.com  Tue Jan 16 12:06:45 2007
From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle)
Date: Tue Jan 16 12:07:11 2007
Subject: multi-touch screens [was: Re: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to
	public]
In-Reply-To: <5ii0ro$26s0l7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070114025707.01021110@melbpc.org.au>
	<45AAEA9B.7030604@ozemail.com.au> <45AAF03C.7030803@praxis.com.au>
	<45AAFC51.2010305@lannet.com.au>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0701151523060.4008@zathras.uws.edu.au>
	<20070115142148.ntryoykjw9sgs88s@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
	<45AB4E1C.2020903@ozemail.com.au>
	<0BA16B99-DEAC-4EF3-A660-C41E3B2A6CFE@itrundle.com>
	<5ii0ro$26mas3@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
	<F7E58AA0-5B14-432B-B5FD-1ED37AE154D9@itrundle.com>
	<5ii0ro$26s0l7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <98E2B2F8-4B9C-4ED2-8221-054741D88398@itrundle.com>


On 16/01/2007, at 9:45 AM, Jan Whitaker wrote:

> At 08:34 AM 16/01/2007, Ivan Trundle wrote:
>> That's exactly why I thought it would be a real asset for vision-  
>> impaired: current tactile input devices are not perfect, and
>> generally inflexible in function (other than shift/control/option/alt
>> derivatives).
>
> Are you saying there is some tactile response within the screen?

No, I was saying that current tactile input devices leave much to be  
desired.

> Looks like a flat piece of vinyl to me where the information is  
> just the visual picture or keyboard. If you can't see them, you  
> can't move them.

Why move them? The functionality of multi-touch relies on gestures,  
not precise location. I suggest a look at the iPhone pages on Apple's  
site, or simply hire out Minority Report for some insights.

>
>> Of course, a voice overlay or some other form of auditory feedback
>> would be required to make multi-touch useful, but I see great
>> potential here. The fact that you don't have to be precise with
>> hitting the right button or key, but rather use gestures, is surely
>> an improvement on multi-button devices (and nondescript in function
>> unless you know where you're at on the keyboard).
>
> Gestures of what? There has to be a feedback loop of some sort.

I'm not suggesting that Apple's iPhone has the answers, but feedback  
(aural or otherwise) isn't likely to be too much trouble in a multi- 
touch interface. Apple's approach appears to satisfy sighted users  
well, but I'm suggesting that the whole approach could go a lot  
further than this. Keyboards are so inefficient in this regard (and I  
don't fancy carrying one around with me all the time).

> At least with a limited number of keys the user can implement  
> functions.

On a keyboard, yes - so long as a) you've got one with you, and b)  
you know where the keys are when you use them). Consider sign  
language. It's remarkably good at 'implementing functions' (whatever  
that can be defined as), too - and doesn't need a keyboard.

> I don't look at my keyboard (how many keys?) because I'm a touch  
> typist. I just closed y eyes and think I didn't make too many  
> mistakes, but I think I'll open them now.  Gee - only missed the m  
> in my! If this was a flat panel, I'm sure the error rate would have  
> been astounding.
>
Only if you were attempting to type using a standard keyboard - which  
we all know was developed to slow down typing (or more precisely, to  
stop keys from hitting each other).

>
>> ps. How much did the people who produced the movie, Minority Report,
>> know of this?
>
> http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/Science-Fiction-News.asp?NewsNum=898  
> for a comparison for you.

Yes, I was aware of Jeff Han's work when he developed it, and was  
going to mention it in my last post - thanks for finding the  
reference URL! (I had lost it).

I think that there is tremendous possibilities here, if only because  
it frees the user from having to place keys on a keyboard. And I  
still regard sight as option in this (though at present the focus is  
heavily on sighted users).

iT


From jwhit at janwhitaker.com  Tue Jan 16 13:00:26 2007
From: jwhit at janwhitaker.com (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Tue Jan 16 13:03:14 2007
Subject: [LINK] need help re message labeled spam
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$26up14@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

Linkers, anyone who is expert on why messages are labeled as spam, 
even when they came from me? If you could respond privately, I'd like 
to forward what happened and see if you can explain why.

TIA,
Jan

Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From link at todd.inoz.com  Tue Jan 16 12:38:04 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Tue Jan 16 14:00:41 2007
Subject: [LINK] Dissent over Canberra's card
In-Reply-To: <20070116082213.5vjf1umd93a4ggog@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
References: <20070116082213.5vjf1umd93a4ggog@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070116123221.032c0db8@wheresmymailserver.com>


Hey if there is a National ID card, and all agencies use it.  Does that 
mean you need only do one FOI request to gain ALL information from 
everywhere about you?

I mean, lets face it, if you have a centralised database of information and 
linked data, then surely there can be one Federal Agency for FOI, with one 
single application fee and ALL data can then be consolidated into one place.

Now I'm all for this!

Do you know how many subpoena's I've had to issue to just get the basics 
about myself from the NSW POLICE!

I seem to have about 400 identities, and every department has a different 
ID for me, and every police officer has different information that each 
time you make a request you get something different, and then add in other 
agencies and it's a very costly process.  What you get under FOI is 
different to that produced under subpoena, but the subpoena doesn't often 
include all the FOI materials, and the FOI materials often include things 
not included in the Subpoena.

Perhaps this is just bureaucracy gone mad, or i's just the governments way 
of really F*ing itself up totally.  I'm not sure.

Yet.


I hope that in making it cheaper for Government Administration, it will 
also become cheaper for Public Access!


Anyway, a National ID card isn't going to change anything really.  Most 
people freely give their drivers licence and date of birth to anyone who 
asks.  Once you have those two bits, data matching is simple and constant.

Some people use their passport.

Either way, it's easy to trace a persons identity without too much 
effort.  It's just impossible to gain access to records!

A National ID card isn't going to suddenly prevent terrorism, fraud, or 
false identities, and it won't reduce or remove identity theft.

So anyone harping on those lines is fooling only themselves, and the 
millions of indoctrinated public sheep in our society.


(Oh I'm in a mood today!)


At 10:22 AM 16/01/2007, brd@iimetro.com.au wrote:
>Dissent over Canberra's card
>Karen Dearne
>JANUARY 16, 2007
>The Australian
>http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,21064133%5E15306%5E%5Enbv%5E,00.html
>
>GRASSROOTS opposition to the federal Government's welfare services access card
>is building, with campaigners saying Joe Hockey's proposal, despite Government
>reassurances, is "indistinguishable from a national identity scheme".
>
>About 120 individuals and groups have made submissions on the draft access 
>card
>bill, released on December 13, even though the tight, one-month, public 
>comment
>period fell over the holidays.
>
>The Human Services minister plans to introduce the bill into federal 
>parliament
>next month, but the draft has been slammed as "seriously inadequate", with 
>many
>key issues to be decided later and included in a second round of legislation.
>
>Tim Warner, convenor of Access Card No Way, said the campaign now boasted "an
>active cadre of citizens to oppose this illiberal program", with volunteers in
>every state.
>
>"We believe that any national ID scheme is a tragic mistake," he said. "The
>inadequacies in this draft are deeply disturbing, given the enormous shift 
>this
>legislation represents.
>
>"No inquiry, no debate and certainly no parliamentary discussion has 
>occurred on
>whether anti-fraud measures require a national register. Instead, the 
>debate is
>over what sort of register should be introduced."
>
>Mr Warner said the draft was like a "Lego set", with many key aspects yet 
>to be
>decided and introduced by additional legislation or regulation.
>
>"The lackadaisical air is astounding," he said. "Oversight and governance, the
>interaction with existing entitlement systems and mechanisms for handling card
>suspensions and lost or stolen cards are fundamental to whether this will 
>be an
>intolerable yoke around every citizen's neck.
>
>"We need to know now what is intended and whether better ways can be found, or
>the whole proposal stopped, before huge sums of public money are diverted from
>worthwhile purposes."
>
>The "clear call for data extension at the whim of the minister or secretary"
>made public statements about the future of the card "meaningless and
>temporary", he said.
>
>The notion that people would own their cards was laughable, Mr Warner said.
>"Under the bill, one's own address, telephone number, email address and
>photograph are all declared Crown property.
>
>"Granting a meaningless property right in the card plastic is a very tawdry
>joke."
>
>Australian Privacy Foundation policy co-ordinator Nigel Waters said a key
>problem was that information was being "dripped out in instalments".
>
>"As a result, it's impossible to assess the complete package," he said. "A 
>great
>many important aspects have not been addressed to date, yet these are
>inextricably linked to whether the proposed system will work in accordance 
>with
>the stated aims.
>
>"For example, unless issues related to dependants and carers are dealt with,
>there's no way of telling if the system can deliver efficient and
>privacy-sensitive Medicare services to all citizens."
>
>Until draft legislation was provided on all issues central to the access 
>card's
>operation, there was no meaningful basis on which to assess the proposal.
>
>"It is therefore not appropriate to introduce any legislation until these
>matters have been dealt with," Mr Waters said. "The APF submits that the bill
>cannot be sent forward at this stage."
>
>Access Card Office chief technology architect Marie Johnson said the 
>legislation
>clearly spelled out that the card was not a national identity card.
>
>"There is no requirement for anyone to carry the card at all times, or to 
>use it
>for identity purposes other than to access health and social services 
>benefits,"
>she said.
>
>"The proposed legislation contains severe penalties of up to five years' jail
>for anyone else who demands it as a form of identity."
>
>Ms Johnson said the Government's release of the exposure draft "before 
>taking it
>directly to Parliament" demonstrated its commitment to wide community
>consultation.
>
>Welfare Rights Centre policy officer Gerard Thomas said the costs of 
>introducing
>the card were a problem.
>
>"If the costs rise beyond the $1.1 billion price-tag, as many suggest, 
>will the
>funding gap be met by cuts to services and programs vital to the very
>disadvantaged people for whom the card is essentially compulsory?" Mr Thomas
>asked.
>
>
>
>--
>Regards
>brd
>
>Bernard Robertson-Dunn
>Sydney Australia
>brd@iimetro.com.au
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>This message was sent using iiMetro WebMail
>_______________________________________________
>Link mailing list
>Link@mailman.anu.edu.au
>http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link

From link at todd.inoz.com  Tue Jan 16 12:40:48 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Tue Jan 16 14:00:48 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <C1D259E3.692%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <200701150953.l0F9pS4t021272@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
	<C1D259E3.692%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070116123906.032c0b28@wheresmymailserver.com>

At 10:30 AM 16/01/2007, Stewart Fist wrote:
>I wonder how many metres of water-pipe that $100 would buy, if these
>philanthropic organisation became interested in public health before wanking
>educational projects.

Yes seems silly to buy a laptop for a 5 year old child that dies 6 months 
later from malnutrition and other post World War II mostly eradicated in 
the Western World illnesses.

Bit o' pipe and a few pumps, some solar stations and presto.  Those kids 
will have better food increasing their brain function, and can hydrate 
themselves properly to actually use a computer!




From marghanita at ramin.com.au  Tue Jan 16 16:02:18 2007
From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz)
Date: Tue Jan 16 16:02:55 2007
Subject: [LINK] Straw Pole of Good Bad and ugly online government services
Message-ID: <45AC5C5A.5000500@ramin.com.au>

In March, I am facilitating a workshop on getting more from time and
money invested in online services.

Examples are useful and I wondered if linkers have been delighted by
any online government services.

For the purposes of this exercise I would like to include all three
tiers of government and educational institutions if only to include 
austlii on my good list :-).

On the Good List so far:
*the RTA motor vehicle registration -integrating pink slips
(roadworthyness check) and green slips(third party insurance)
*austlii
*NSW Land Titles
*Victorian e-government resource centre http://www.egov.vic.gov.au/
*ATO annual return system for accountants

My own experience with the ATO - E-BAS is that I registered in 2000 -
but did not survive their initial upgrades and continue to make paper
returns.
DCITA is currently on my bad list - as I don't think I should have to
upgrade my browser to view a text document.

Note, I am keen to hear of effectiveness rather than the technical
aspects of the website. eg - I don't use the ATO annual return system,
but my accountant does and it seems to provide a good turn around.

Marghanita
-- 
Marghanita da Cruz
http://www.ramin.com.au/
Telephone: 0414-869202
Ramin Communications Pty Ltd
ABN: 027-089-713-084









From marty at supine.com  Tue Jan 16 16:16:28 2007
From: marty at supine.com (Martin Barry)
Date: Tue Jan 16 16:16:59 2007
Subject: [LINK] Straw Pole of Good Bad and ugly online government services
In-Reply-To: <45AC5C5A.5000500@ramin.com.au>
References: <45AC5C5A.5000500@ramin.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070116051628.GB1660@supine.com>

$quoted_author = "Marghanita da Cruz" ;
> 
> *ATO annual return system for accountants
> 
> My own experience with the ATO - E-BAS is that I registered in 2000 -
> but did not survive their initial upgrades and continue to make paper
> returns.

It's only a small component, but the ATO online document ordering system
works a treat.

http://www.ato.gov.au/corporate/content.asp?doc=/content/34875.htm&mnu=3412&mfp=001

cheers
Marty
From avi.miller at squiz.net  Tue Jan 16 17:38:48 2007
From: avi.miller at squiz.net (Avi Miller)
Date: Tue Jan 16 17:39:08 2007
Subject: [LINK] Straw Pole of Good Bad and ugly online government services
In-Reply-To: <45AC5C5A.5000500@ramin.com.au>
References: <45AC5C5A.5000500@ramin.com.au>
Message-ID: <E04DB3A5-C09E-423D-BC23-5F59358CE82E@squiz.net>


On 16/01/2007, at 4:02 PM, Marghanita da Cruz wrote:

> DCITA is currently on my bad list - as I don't think I should have to
> upgrade my browser to view a text document.

Could you explain this in more detail? There should be no requirement  
for this -- the new DCITA site was design to be as accessible and  
backwards compatible as possible.

--
National Manager - Special Projects

< Sydney / Melbourne / Canberra / Hobart / London />
   2/340 Gore Street        T: +61 (0) 3 9235 5400
   Fitzroy, VIC             F: +61 (0) 3 9235 5444
   3065                     W: http://www.squiz.net

..... > > Open Source - Own It - Squiz.net ...... />




From ivan at itrundle.com  Tue Jan 16 17:46:25 2007
From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle)
Date: Tue Jan 16 17:46:45 2007
Subject: [LINK] Straw Pole of Good Bad and ugly online government services
In-Reply-To: <E04DB3A5-C09E-423D-BC23-5F59358CE82E@squiz.net>
References: <45AC5C5A.5000500@ramin.com.au>
	<E04DB3A5-C09E-423D-BC23-5F59358CE82E@squiz.net>
Message-ID: <66E6CCBD-D84A-4593-AA7F-EDA2B4679A74@itrundle.com>


On 16/01/2007, at 5:38 PM, Avi Miller wrote:

>
> On 16/01/2007, at 4:02 PM, Marghanita da Cruz wrote:
>
>> DCITA is currently on my bad list - as I don't think I should have to
>> upgrade my browser to view a text document.
>
> Could you explain this in more detail? There should be no  
> requirement for this -- the new DCITA site was design to be as  
> accessible and backwards compatible as possible.

I was wondering about that too - surely this refers to the linking of  
Microsoft Word documents, or other such things? I've never had to  
upgrade my browser since all Word and Excel documents are  
(thankfully) not handled directly by my browser, and I don't want  
them to, either...

And I had always thought that the DCITA site to be quite reasonable,  
for a .gov.au site, fwiw...

iT

Still trying to visualise a straw pole... (How long is it? Can it be  
used in place of tomato steaks?)


From avi.miller at squiz.net  Tue Jan 16 18:14:14 2007
From: avi.miller at squiz.net (Avi Miller)
Date: Tue Jan 16 18:14:36 2007
Subject: [LINK] Licence change for MySource Matrix
Message-ID: <00D20D6F-C3F8-42A9-A98A-A28F74ACB28A@squiz.net>

Hey LINKers,

I know this has come up for discussion a few times on LINK in the  
past, so I thought I should highlight an announcement we made today:

http://www.squiz.net/news/mysource-matrix-adopts-gpl

Thanks,
Avi


--
National Manager - Special Projects

< Sydney / Melbourne / Canberra / Hobart / London />
   2/340 Gore Street        T: +61 (0) 3 9235 5400
   Fitzroy, VIC             F: +61 (0) 3 9235 5444
   3065                     W: http://www.squiz.net

..... > > Open Source - Own It - Squiz.net ...... />




From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au  Tue Jan 16 19:24:58 2007
From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au)
Date: Tue Jan 16 19:26:52 2007
Subject: [LINK] Straw Pole of Good Bad and ugly online government services
In-Reply-To: <45AC5C5A.5000500@ramin.com.au>
References: <45AC5C5A.5000500@ramin.com.au>
Message-ID: <45AC8BDA.2050800@ozemail.com.au>

Running this one up the pole (sorry, but you're going to be stuck with 
pole jokes!).

This year was the first time I was sufficiently together to do the car 
registration online (that is, I had everything done nice and early).

The entire process worked perfectly (NSW RTA Website). The registration 
check went from the mechanic to the RTA; the CTP insurance ditto; and 
the process on the RTA site only took a couple of minutes - and it 
worked properly on a Mac.

So: points for the RTA. I agree with you on that one.

Most of my "bad list" sites lately aren't government. Australian car 
rental sites are a veritable hell on Earth - you cannot for eg say "find 
me a Tarago in Sydney", you have to search location-by-location. You 
can't give it a range of start and finish dates - you have to pick a 
date, and if there's nothing available go back and try another date. The 
process is almost uniform on most sites (Budget, Thrifty, Avis, Hertz, 
Europcar), and uniformly atrocious. AND the booking didn't work, so that 
when I got the "cold shivers" a few days before the booking, and phoned 
to confirm, "no, we don't have you listed" (I sent the confirmation 
e-mail as proof, no dice).

RC



Marghanita da Cruz wrote:

> In March, I am facilitating a workshop on getting more from time and
> money invested in online services.
>
> Examples are useful and I wondered if linkers have been delighted by
> any online government services.
>
> For the purposes of this exercise I would like to include all three
> tiers of government and educational institutions if only to include 
> austlii on my good list :-).
>
> On the Good List so far:
> *the RTA motor vehicle registration -integrating pink slips
> (roadworthyness check) and green slips(third party insurance)
> *austlii
> *NSW Land Titles
> *Victorian e-government resource centre http://www.egov.vic.gov.au/
> *ATO annual return system for accountants
>
> My own experience with the ATO - E-BAS is that I registered in 2000 -
> but did not survive their initial upgrades and continue to make paper
> returns.
> DCITA is currently on my bad list - as I don't think I should have to
> upgrade my browser to view a text document.
>
> Note, I am keen to hear of effectiveness rather than the technical
> aspects of the website. eg - I don't use the ATO annual return system,
> but my accountant does and it seems to provide a good turn around.
>
> Marghanita
From david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au  Tue Jan 16 20:43:24 2007
From: david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au (David Boxall)
Date: Tue Jan 16 20:43:47 2007
Subject: [LINK] Invisible RFID ink safe for cattle and people, company says
Message-ID: <45AC9E3C.7070301@hunterlink.net.au>

A new dimension to the RFID debate.

<http://www.itnews.com.au/newsstory.aspx?CIaNID=44317&eid=1&edate=20070115>

"A startup company has developed a chipless radio frequency 
identification ink that it says has been successfully stamped on cattle 
and read from as much as four feet away."

-- 
David Boxall                    |  When a distinguished but elderly
david.boxall@hunterlink.net.au  |  scientist states that something is
                                 |  possible, he is almost certainly
                                 |  right. When he states that
                                 |  something is impossible, he is
                                 |  very probably wrong.
                                                   --Arthur C. Clarke

From david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au  Tue Jan 16 20:50:10 2007
From: david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au (David Boxall)
Date: Tue Jan 16 20:50:34 2007
Subject: [LINK] Porn industry standardises on HD-DVD
Message-ID: <45AC9FD2.5030401@hunterlink.net.au>

I really don't know what to make of this.

<http://www.itnews.com.au/newsstory.aspx?CIaNID=44342&eid=3&edate=20070115>

"Reports from the adult industry exhibition in Las Vegas suggest that 
all the major adult movie studios are standardising on HD-DVD, citing 
the lower costs of production as the primary driver.

But there are reports that Sony may be encouraging this by banning 
Blu-ray disc manufacturers from accepting adult content at all."

-- 
David Boxall                    |  Dogs look up to us
david.boxall@hunterlink.net.au  |  And cats look down on us
                                 |  But pigs treat us as equals
                                                   --Winston Churchill
From stephen at melbpc.org.au  Tue Jan 16 22:18:10 2007
From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen@melbpc.org.au)
Date: Tue Jan 16 22:18:21 2007
Subject: [LINK] 'big brain'
Message-ID: <20070116111810.9752515F44@vscan42.melbpc.org.au>

At 08:49 PM 15/01/2007, Richard writes:

> " .. some big-brain ..."

I believe that this description applies to many, many Linkers, including
yourself, Richard. Thus hence, as a Linker writes, don't be insulting :-)

Cheers, linkers
Stephen Loosley
Victoria, Australia


Message sent using MelbPC WebMail Server



From stephen at melbpc.org.au  Tue Jan 16 22:50:58 2007
From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen@melbpc.org.au)
Date: Tue Jan 16 22:51:11 2007
Subject: [LINK] FPGA chips (field programmable gate arrays)
Message-ID: <20070116115058.50B8E15F44@vscan42.melbpc.org.au>

H.P. to Report an Advance in Adaptable Circuitry
By JOHN MARKOFF www.NYTimes.com
Published: January 16, 2007

SAN FRANCISCO, Jan. 15 — Hewlett-Packard researchers have developed a 
novel way to create flexible electronic circuits that could make it 
routine by the end of the decade to modify and upgrade the circuitry in 
computer-based consumer products even after they have been sold.

The technology grows out of an advance in nanocomputing, which involves 
creating circuitry on a molecular scale and making it interact with 
today’s silicon wires and transistors. 

A cellphone using the technology (FPGA chips) could be wirelessly 
upgraded to take advantage of improved wireless network standards. 
Another potential use would be in making ultracheap memory chips, and one 
early application could be in the ink-jet cartridges which Hewlett-
Packard manufactures by the tens of millions. 

The results of the research, which the company plans to report on Tuesday 
and will be the subject of an article in the Jan. 24 issue of the British 
journal Nanotechnology, are the clearest evidence yet that the once 
highly speculative technology could be commercialized soon.

The H.P. researchers are among dozens of groups in the United States and 
elsewhere who have been pursuing molecular computing for more than a 
decade. Even as today’s microelectronics industry continues to shrink the 
size of the wires and switches that make up silicon chips, most engineers 
believe that sometime in the next decade the microelectronics industry 
will run up against fundamental limits. 

That challenge has led a hunt for a new technology in which wires will be 
no more than several molecules wide and switches will be composed of 
single atoms. So far many laboratories have fabricated experimental 
switches and wires on this scale, but little progress has been made on 
the crucial technical challenge of how to move signals between the world 
of molecular computing and today’s microelectronic systems.

Now the researchers report that they have capitalized on a simple idea 
proposed by researchers at Stony Brook University in New York. Last year 
two Stony Brook scientists, Dmitri B. Strukov and Konstantin K. Likharev, 
proposed a novel way to overlay a mesh of molecular-scale wires, or 
nanowires, on top of a conventional chip circuit to move data between the 
two worlds.

In 1985, with Dmitri Averin, while teaching the Moscow State University, 
Likharev proposed a transistor based on the spin of a single electron. 
Two years later researchers at Bell Laboratories developed a prototype of 
such a device.

The Hewlett-Packard design would be a hybrid that contained transistors 
made using conventional photolithography techniques with an accompanying 
mesh of nanowire-connected switches.

“We’ve demonstrated a credible means for shrinking circuit density 
without shrinking transistors,” said Stan Williams, director of quantum 
science research at H.P. Labs. The researchers have simulated the design 
in the lab, and they are starting to build test chips in a laboratory in 
Corvallis, Ore. They hope to have a working prototype within a year.

The Hewlett-Packard researchers, who are based in Palo Alto, Calif., have 
extended the Stony Brook concept and applied it to a class of computer 
chips known as field programmable gate arrays, or FPGA. FPGA chips are 
widely used in the computer industry to design prototype circuits that 
can later be manufactured less expensively. 

To gain flexibility, the FPGA chips use large numbers of transistors that 
can be reconfigured into an infinite array of different circuits. 
Therefore the flexibility entails much higher cost, and the circuits are 
not routinely used in final products, but rather in development systems.

The Stony Brook and H.P. design, however, would make it possible to build 
FPGA circuits that are one-eighth to one-tenth the scale of today’s 
commercial chips. Moreover, they would have the advantage of consuming 
far less power than conventional microchips because the molecular 
computing switches are nonvolatile — that is, they consume power only 
when switching from one state to another. 

Such a breakthrough would allow the flexible FPGA-style chips to be used 
routinely in consumer products manufactured by the tens of millions. It 
is this advance that could lead to the ability to modify or upgrade the 
circuitry of standard consumer electronics products already in use. 
--

Cheers all ..
Stephen Loosley
Victoria, Australia
From grove at zeta.org.au  Tue Jan 16 23:44:34 2007
From: grove at zeta.org.au (grove@zeta.org.au)
Date: Tue Jan 16 23:44:49 2007
Subject: [LINK] FPGA chips (field programmable gate arrays)
In-Reply-To: <20070116115058.50B8E15F44@vscan42.melbpc.org.au>
References: <20070116115058.50B8E15F44@vscan42.melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701162340570.4984@zathras.uws.edu.au>

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007, stephen@melbpc.org.au wrote:

> Such a breakthrough would allow the flexible FPGA-style chips to be used
> routinely in consumer products manufactured by the tens of millions. It
> is this advance that could lead to the ability to modify or upgrade the
> circuitry of standard consumer electronics products already in use.

The Fairlight company (that one of the famous keyboard sampler instrument)
which is an Australian technology company is using FGPA in it's new 
audio card.   It is supposed to offer unprecedented audio processing 
power at extremely high sample rates which means brilliant quality.
And bit for bit it is inexpensive for what it can offer.

I only mention this because Fairlight is an Australian company
doing something wonderful with technology, even in this drab climate
of buying in the commodities from OS.


rachel

-- 
Rachel Polanskis                 Kingswood, Greater Western Sydney, Australia
grove@zeta.org.au                http://www.zeta.org.au/~grove/grove.html
 	"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security,
 	deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin, 1759
From link at todd.inoz.com  Tue Jan 16 22:59:55 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Tue Jan 16 23:48:54 2007
Subject: [LINK] FPGA chips (field programmable gate arrays)
In-Reply-To: <20070116115058.50B8E15F44@vscan42.melbpc.org.au>
References: <20070116115058.50B8E15F44@vscan42.melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070116225915.031c7ed0@wheresmymailserver.com>



Or could be sent a message to give new meaning to Laptop Battery meltdown!

"This device will self destruct in five seconds"


At 10:50 PM 16/01/2007, stephen@melbpc.org.au wrote:
>H.P. to Report an Advance in Adaptable Circuitry
>By JOHN MARKOFF www.NYTimes.com
>Published: January 16, 2007
>
>SAN FRANCISCO, Jan. 15 ? Hewlett-Packard researchers have developed a
>novel way to create flexible electronic circuits that could make it
>routine by the end of the decade to modify and upgrade the circuitry in
>computer-based consumer products even after they have been sold.
>
>The technology grows out of an advance in nanocomputing, which involves
>creating circuitry on a molecular scale and making it interact with
>today?s silicon wires and transistors.


From stephen at melbpc.org.au  Wed Jan 17 01:50:09 2007
From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen@melbpc.org.au)
Date: Wed Jan 17 01:50:21 2007
Subject: [LINK] Straw Pole of Good Bad and ugly online government services
Message-ID: <20070116145009.B00481626E@vscan42.melbpc.org.au>

At 04:02 PM 16/01/2007, Marghanita writes:

> DCITA is currently on my bad list - as I don't think I should have
> to upgrade my browser to view a text document.  Marghanita

What about down-grading your browser to view a web page then?

It's *really not* a good time of year to stuff around with recruitment.

--
http://www.education.vic.gov.au/hrweb/careers/vacs/advacssch.htm

Jobs in Victorian Government Schools

Welcome to Recruitment Online. Whether you are taking the next step in 
your career or looking for your first job, you will find all Victorian 
Government school jobs, including principal, assistant principal, teacher 
and school services officer vacancies advertised here at Recruitment 
Online . (snipped)

Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 

Microsoft now has available for download version 7 of Internet Explorer 
(IE7). Recruitment Online is based on a PeopleSoft platform which is yet 
to be certified for use with the new version of Internet Explorer. 

Recruitment Online users who have downloaded IE7 are unable to 
successfully log in to Recruitment Online. Currently there is no setting 
that can be altered to overcome this issue. Instructions for un-
installing IE7 are available from the Microsoft web site 
(http://msdn.microsoft.com/ie/releasenotes)"

--

Cheers Marghanita
Stephen Loosley
Vic., Australia




Message sent using MelbPC WebMail Server



From stephen at melbpc.org.au  Wed Jan 17 05:00:12 2007
From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen@melbpc.org.au)
Date: Wed Jan 17 05:00:24 2007
Subject: [LINK] new SA supercomputer for national grid etc
Message-ID: <20070116180012.35AD0683F@vscan42.melbpc.org.au>

Cluster gives SA new grunt
Karen Dearne JANUARY 12, 2007
http://australianit.news.com.au

SOUTH Australian researchers are boasting a new supercomputer - a quad-
core cluster capable of delivering 6 TeraFLOPS performance, a massive six 
billion calculations per second.

The SGI Altix XE1300 has been bought by the South Australian Partnership 
for Advanced Computing (SAPAC) to replace "Perseus", the oldest of its 
four existing supercomputers. 

The new machine has been dubbed Corvus, the crow, in line with the 
tradition of naming cluster-based supercomputers after stellar 
constellations. 

SAPAC director Professor Tony Williams says Corvus will be the nation's 
fourth fastest computer, "and, for dedicated R&D, second only to the 
Australian National Facility" in Canberra. 

"It will be used to tackle some of the most demanding scientific and 
technical problems including bioinformatics, water resource and 
environmental management, oceanography, computational chemistry and the 
analysis of synchrotron data," Prof Williams said. 

"It will also become part of the evolving national grid - a network of 
high-performance computers, data repositories, scientific instruments and 
the software and services that allow these to interoperate." 

SAPAC has also purchased associated data management equipment including 
an SGI 8.4 Terabyte RAID storage array, an archival tape library and 
fibre channel switch. 

Prof Williams said the infrastructure would underpin the Sustainable 
Repository that SAPAC was building to maintain the state's growing 
research data collections. 

Corvus will be installed and implemented during March.

-- 


Message sent using MelbPC WebMail Server



From stephen at melbpc.org.au  Wed Jan 17 05:28:11 2007
From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen@melbpc.org.au)
Date: Wed Jan 17 05:28:23 2007
Subject: [LINK] Straw Pole of Good Bad and ugly online government services
Message-ID: <20070116182811.E793116217@vscan42.melbpc.org.au>

At 04:33 AM 17/01/2007, Howard writes:

>>> DCITA is currently on my bad list - as I don't think I should have
>>> to upgrade my browser to view a text document.  Marghanita
>>
>> What about down-grading your browser to view a web page then?
>> It's *really not* a good time of year to stuff around with recruitment.
>> 
>> http://www.education.vic.gov.au/hrweb/careers/vacs/advacssch.htm
>
> Don't worry about it.  It seems to work just fine in Firefox, but then,
> why wouldn't it  :)

Yes, the pages work, but to apply for any of the jobs, one needs to login
and that's what is apparently broken with IE7. I understand for some jobs
advertised one can only apply online and they are not advertised anywhere
else. Being mid-January some classes will probably start the year without
their teachers, or technical support, one might hazard a guess.

Cheers, Howard
Stephen Loosley


Message sent using MelbPC WebMail Server



From marghanita at ramin.com.au  Wed Jan 17 08:47:34 2007
From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz)
Date: Wed Jan 17 08:47:38 2007
Subject: [LINK] Straw Pole of Good Bad and ugly online government services
In-Reply-To: <E04DB3A5-C09E-423D-BC23-5F59358CE82E@squiz.net>
References: <45AC5C5A.5000500@ramin.com.au>
	<E04DB3A5-C09E-423D-BC23-5F59358CE82E@squiz.net>
Message-ID: <45AD47F6.7060701@ramin.com.au>

Avi Miller wrote:
> 
> On 16/01/2007, at 4:02 PM, Marghanita da Cruz wrote:
> 
>> DCITA is currently on my bad list - as I don't think I should have to
>> upgrade my browser to view a text document.
> 
> 
> Could you explain this in more detail? There should be no requirement  
> for this -- the new DCITA site was design to be as accessible and  
> backwards compatible as possible.
> 
Hi Avi,

I raised this on link (though it was under the subject line of
[LINK] For Windows Vista Security, Microsoft Called in Pros
and there were a few responses see:
<http://mailman.anu.edu.au/pipermail/link/2007-January/071395.html>

Marghanita
-- 
Marghanita da Cruz
http://www.ramin.com.au/
Telephone: 0414-869202
Ramin Communications Pty Ltd
ABN: 027-089-713-084



From marghanita at ramin.com.au  Wed Jan 17 09:05:45 2007
From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz)
Date: Wed Jan 17 09:06:22 2007
Subject: [LINK] Straw Pole of Good Bad and ugly online government services
In-Reply-To: <20070116182811.E793116217@vscan42.melbpc.org.au>
References: <20070116182811.E793116217@vscan42.melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <45AD4C39.6040500@ramin.com.au>

stephen@melbpc.org.au wrote:
> At 04:33 AM 17/01/2007, Howard writes:
> 
> 
>>>>DCITA is currently on my bad list - as I don't think I should have
>>>>to upgrade my browser to view a text document.  Marghanita
>>>
>>>What about down-grading your browser to view a web page then?
>>>It's *really not* a good time of year to stuff around with recruitment.
>>>
>>>http://www.education.vic.gov.au/hrweb/careers/vacs/advacssch.htm
>>
>>Don't worry about it.  It seems to work just fine in Firefox, but then,
>>why wouldn't it  :)
> 
> 
> Yes, the pages work, but to apply for any of the jobs, one needs to login
> and that's what is apparently broken with IE7. I understand for some jobs
> advertised one can only apply online and they are not advertised anywhere
> else. Being mid-January some classes will probably start the year without
> their teachers, or technical support, one might hazard a guess.
<snip>
Thanks Stephen, This is exactly the kind of elaboration I am looking for.

Another not so good implementation is the Aus Tenders site. I registered 
and then discovered from reading the tender that you had to be a 
preferred supplier to tender. Perhaps the system should clarify this first.

An online but not Internet/Public application, I really like, is the 
over the counter Australia Post Bill Payment.
Picture Australia was mentioned previously as being successful because 
it has a good business model.

Marghanita
-- 
Marghanita da Cruz
http://www.ramin.com.au/
Telephone: 0414-869202
Ramin Communications Pty Ltd
ABN: 027-089-713-084



From avi.miller at squiz.net  Wed Jan 17 09:13:14 2007
From: avi.miller at squiz.net (Avi Miller)
Date: Wed Jan 17 09:13:34 2007
Subject: [LINK] Straw Pole of Good Bad and ugly online government services
In-Reply-To: <45AD47F6.7060701@ramin.com.au>
References: <45AC5C5A.5000500@ramin.com.au>
	<E04DB3A5-C09E-423D-BC23-5F59358CE82E@squiz.net>
	<45AD47F6.7060701@ramin.com.au>
Message-ID: <3FEC85A9-9F24-4CF3-97C3-2751F46EC6E2@squiz.net>


On 17/01/2007, at 8:47 AM, Marghanita da Cruz wrote:

> I raised this on link (though it was under the subject line of
> [LINK] For Windows Vista Security, Microsoft Called in Pros
> and there were a few responses see:

Interesting. There are a few XHTML errors (due to the replacement of  
the built-in search with FunnelBack), but I can't see anything that  
would stop you from viewing that page in Mozilla. Could you send me  
(offlist) a screenshot of what you get so I can follow up?

Thanks,
Avi

--
National Manager - Special Projects

< Sydney / Melbourne / Canberra / Hobart / London />
   2/340 Gore Street        T: +61 (0) 3 9235 5400
   Fitzroy, VIC             F: +61 (0) 3 9235 5444
   3065                     W: http://www.squiz.net

..... > > Open Source - Own It - Squiz.net ...... />




From marghanita at ramin.com.au  Wed Jan 17 09:47:17 2007
From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz)
Date: Wed Jan 17 09:47:03 2007
Subject: [LINK] Bilingualism Has Protective Effect In Delaying Onset Of
	Dementia By Four Years, Canadian Study Shows
In-Reply-To: <45AC6C82.3070807@lannet.com.au>
References: <45AC6C82.3070807@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <45AD55F5.7030507@ramin.com.au>

Howard Lowndes wrote:
> http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=60646
> 
> "Canadian scientists have found astonishing evidence that the lifelong 
> use of two languages can help delay the onset of dementia symptoms by 
> four years compared to people who are monolingual."
> [...]
> 
So where can I buy bi-lingual supplements?

M
-- 
Marghanita da Cruz
http://www.ramin.com.au/
Telephone: 0414-869202
Ramin Communications Pty Ltd
ABN: 027-089-713-084



From ahornby at darlug.org  Wed Jan 17 09:55:50 2007
From: ahornby at darlug.org (anthony hornby)
Date: Wed Jan 17 09:56:04 2007
Subject: [LINK] EU Commission Study Finds You'll Save Money Switching to
	Free and Open Source Software
Message-ID: <1168988150.6891.8.camel@bacchus>

>From Groklaw:

The EU Commission's Final Report on its "Study on the Economic impact of
open source software on innovation and the competitiveness of the
Information and Communication Technologies (ICT) sector in the EU" is
now available on its policy documents, publications and studies page as
a PDF. 

http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/ict/studies/publications.htm
http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/ict/policy/doc/2006-11-20-flossimpact.pdf


I thought you'd be interested in the conclusion regarding total cost of
ownership. 

Is it true that switching to Open Source will cost you more than staying
with Windows, as Microsoft's "Get the Facts" page claims? No. The study
found: 

        "Our findings show that, in almost all the cases, a transition
        toward open source reports of savings on the long term ? costs
        of ownership of the software products." 

But what about training costs? Doesn't that remove the benefits? No, the
report found:

        "Costs to migrate to an open solution are relevant and an
        organization needs to consider an extra effort for this. However
        these costs are temporary and mainly are budgeted in less than
        one year." 

So there you are. 

Oh, and what about loss of productivity if you switch to OpenOffice.org?
None:

        "Our findings report no particular delays or lost of time in the
        daily work due to the use of OpenOffice.org.... OpenOffice.org
        has all the functionalities that public offices need to create
        documents, spreadsheets, and presentations." 

It has another advantage, the study found: it supports ODF:

        "OpenOffice.org is free, extremely stable, and supports the ISO
        Open Document Standard." 


Here's the relevant section with the conclusions of the study:

***************************************************************

12.7. Conclusions Our analysis has been performed on six organizations
in different European countries. The majority of them are public bodies.
The organizations have followed different types of migration on the base
of their context. 

We have investigated the costs of migration, and the cost of ownership
of the old and the new solution differentiating them between the costs
of purchasing and the costs of ownership of the software solutions.
Special attention has been put on the intangible nature of the costs.
Costs have been classified in categories defined trough existing studies
and selected by a top down approach called Goal Question Metric. This
instrument has been also used to define the questionnaires used to
collect the data. 

Our findings show that, in almost all the cases, a transition toward
open source reports of savings on the long term ? costs of ownership of
the software products. 

Costs to migrate to an open solution are relevant and an organization
needs to consider an extra effort for this. However these costs are
temporary and mainly are budgeted in less than one year. The major
factor of cost of the new solution ? even in the case that the open
solution is mixed with closed software ? is costs for peer or ad hoc
training. These are the best example of intangible costs that often are
not foreseen in a transition. On the other hand not providing a specific
training may cause and adverse attitude toward the new technology.
Fortunately those costs are limited in time and are not strictly linked
to the nature of the new software adopted. 

We also investigated the productivity of the employees in using
Microsoft office and OpenOffice.org. Office suites are widely used and
are a good test bed and representative for a comparison on issues like
effort and time spent in the daily routine of work. Delays in the task
deliveries may have a bigger impact than costs on the organization's
management. Our findings report no particular delays or lost of time in
the daily work due to the use of OpenOffice.org. 

                         12.7.1. Considerations

With our analysis we achieve a good level of understanding of the costs,
benefits and productivity of a transition. The following are the
considerations we have drawn upon. 

1. Before buying, upgrading proprietary office software one needs
consider that: 

OpenOffice.org has all the functionalities that public offices need to
create documents, spreadsheets, and presentations 

Upgrading office programs is time-consuming and expensive. It requires
installation time, potential document conversions, and new training. It
also poses a risk because some documents containing code or macros may
not be readable anymore 

OpenOffice.org is free, extremely stable, and supports the ISO Open
Document Standard. 

-- 
Mr Anthony Hornby
Associate Director, Resources and Technology
Library and Information Access
Charles Darwin University (CRICOS 300K)
Phone: +61 8 8946 6011
Email: anthony.hornby@cdu.edu.au.no-spam
(remove the .no-spam)

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little 
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."


From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au  Wed Jan 17 10:04:39 2007
From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke)
Date: Wed Jan 17 10:04:57 2007
Subject: [LINK] 'The Business of Free Software'
Message-ID: <p06240868c1d309ebf7c3@[192.168.123.167]>


The Business of Free Software
January 15, 2007
http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/5574.html

Reports on the following working paper / preprint:

Marco Iansiti and Gregory L. Richards
"The Business of Free Software: Enterprise Incentives, Investment, 
and Motivation in the Open Source Community,"
HBS Working Paper 07-028,
http://www.hbs.edu/research/pdf/07-028.pdf

"OSS is a business tool that has been used by a variety of 
corporations for very logical purposes," notes Iansiti. "If you have 
an environment in which part of the service you provide and the 
product you sell can be given away for free, that changes the 
dynamics of the industry. As a company, you will most likely spend 
more time thinking about exactly what to give away and how to couple 
it with complementary products and services than you do anything 
else."

-- 
Roger Clarke                  http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/
			            
Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd      78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA
                    Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916
mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au                http://www.xamax.com.au/

Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng  Australian National University
Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program      University of Hong Kong
Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre      Uni of NSW
From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au  Tue Jan 16 12:17:32 2007
From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington)
Date: Wed Jan 17 10:05:51 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070114025707.01021110@melbpc.org.au>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070114025707.01021110@melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <20070116230537.0853321757@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com>

At 03:10 AM 1/14/2007, Stephen Loosley wrote:
>$100 laptop could sell to public By Darren Waters (snipped) 
>Technology editor, BBC News website, Las Vegas 
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6246989.stm ...

I have suggested a $50 educational PC might be more useful 
<http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/2007/01/web2pad-educational-computer.html>. 
But this is not going to be of great interest to profit driven 
companies or first world gadget freaks, so I have proposed it could 
also be made inter-operable with the Microsoft Ford Sync car computer 
<http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/2007/01/microsoft-ford-sync-future-of-car.html>. 
It could then be used for playing music and video from a mobile 
device as well as operating a mobile phone remotely. This could be 
built into a car dashboard, used in the home or made as a portable 
device 
<http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/2007/01/pocket-terminal-or-car-computer.html>. 
The ANU IT students might be building a prototype as a group project.



Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150
Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd            ABN: 17 088 714 309
PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617                http://www.tomw.net.au/
Visiting Fellow, ANU      Blog: http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/atom.xml  

From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au  Tue Jan 16 14:45:48 2007
From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington)
Date: Wed Jan 17 10:06:16 2007
Subject: [LINK] re: Digital Culture Talk on Second Life, 14 February 2007,
 Canberra
Message-ID: <20070116230545.CC5FF1CCA0@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com>

I wrote Wed, 10 Jan 2007 15:14:58 +1100:
>>... Kathryn Greenhill, a librarian at Murdoch University Library in 
>>Western Australia, co-ordinates the Australian Libraries Building. 
>>She will provide a guided tour of the Australian Libraries Building 
>>and discuss some of the benefits to librarians of having a Second Life. ...

I have should have pointed out that the "Australian Libraries 
Building" which Kathryn will be providing a guided tour of is not a 
real building, but a virtual one within the Second Life online 
environment 
<http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/2007/01/second-life-14-february-2007-canberra.html>. 


Linkers with a good memory will recall Kathryn from the "Internet 
Reality Check" drinks 15 September 1995 online from the Aria cafe in 
Fremantle 
<http://mailman.anu.edu.au/pipermail/link/1995-September/022954.html>.



Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150
Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd            ABN: 17 088 714 309
PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617                http://www.tomw.net.au/
Visiting Fellow, ANU      Blog: http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/atom.xml  

From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au  Tue Jan 16 15:05:59 2007
From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington)
Date: Wed Jan 17 10:06:27 2007
Subject: [LINK] Ethics of Killer Robots
Message-ID: <20070116230549.B24BC1CCA0@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com>

Philip Argy, president of the Australian Computer Society, wrote a 
thought provoking article "Dilemma in Killer Bots" (The Australian, 
January 16, 2007) 
<http://australianit.news.com.au/common/print/0,7208,21064361%5E15309%5E%5Enbv%5E,00.html>:

'WHEN science fiction writer Isaac Asimov developed his Three Laws of 
Robotics back in 1940, the first law was: "A robot may not harm a 
human being, or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to 
harm." ... reports out of Korea of newly developed guard robots 
capable of firing autonomously on human targets are raising concerns 
about their potential uses. ...'.

Roger Clarke wrote an article "Asimov's Laws of Robotics - 
Implications for Information Technology" for IEEE Computer Magazine 
in 1993 <http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/SOS/Asimov.html>.

There are already some domestic robots available which could raise 
safety concerns, even if not designed to deliberately harm people. 
Professor Rodney Brooks, Director of the MIT Computer Science and 
Artificial Intelligence Laboratory, gave a talk in Canberra last year 
about the potential for low cost robots.

The Roomba robot vacuum cleaner he talked about and the Lego robot 
kit are examples of low cost units available 
<http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/2006/11/hacking-robot-vacuum-cleaners-and-lego.html>.




Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150
Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd            ABN: 17 088 714 309
PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617                http://www.tomw.net.au/
Visiting Fellow, ANU      Blog: http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/atom.xml  

From marghanita at ramin.com.au  Wed Jan 17 10:06:30 2007
From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz)
Date: Wed Jan 17 10:06:36 2007
Subject: [LINK] Straw Pole of Good Bad and ugly online government services
In-Reply-To: <45AC8BDA.2050800@ozemail.com.au>
References: <45AC5C5A.5000500@ramin.com.au> <45AC8BDA.2050800@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <45AD5A76.3030408@ramin.com.au>

rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote:
<snip>
> Most of my "bad list" sites lately aren't government. Australian car 
<snip>

The correcting factor for commercial sites - is the bottom line.

For not for profits it is a bit more tricky.

In trying to come up with examples, I suddenly realised that I used very
few government sites....so, the next test would be when I needed to do 
something
could I find/use the relevant website?

Though I think...this site takes the cake! Wonder what response you get
if you try to correspond via the site with this guy.
<http://www.pm.gov.au/>

Marghanita
-- 
Marghanita da Cruz
http://www.ramin.com.au/
Telephone: 0414-869202
Ramin Communications Pty Ltd
ABN: 027-089-713-084




From marghanita at ramin.com.au  Wed Jan 17 10:10:13 2007
From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz)
Date: Wed Jan 17 10:10:09 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070114025707.01021110@melbpc.org.au>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070114025707.01021110@melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <45AD5B55.7040903@ramin.com.au>

Stephen Loosley wrote:
> $100 laptop could sell to public 
> By Darren Waters (snipped)
> Technology editor, BBC News website, Las Vegas 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6246989.stm
> 
> 
> The backers of the One Laptop Per Child project are looking at the possibility of selling the machine to the public. 
See one at
<http://lca2007.linux.org.au/OpenDay>
-- 
Marghanita da Cruz
http://www.ramin.com.au/
Telephone: 0414-869202
Ramin Communications Pty Ltd
ABN: 027-089-713-084



From marghanita at ramin.com.au  Wed Jan 17 10:25:50 2007
From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz)
Date: Wed Jan 17 10:26:03 2007
Subject: [LINK] EU Commission Study Finds You'll Save Money Switching
	to	Free and Open Source Software
In-Reply-To: <1168988150.6891.8.camel@bacchus>
References: <1168988150.6891.8.camel@bacchus>
Message-ID: <45AD5EFE.2000202@ramin.com.au>

anthony hornby wrote:
>>From Groklaw:
> 
> The EU Commission's Final Report on its "Study on the Economic impact of
> open source software on innovation and the competitiveness of the
> Information and Communication Technologies (ICT) sector in the EU" is
> now available on its policy documents, publications and studies page as
> a PDF. 
> 
> http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/ict/studies/publications.htm
> http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/ict/policy/doc/2006-11-20-flossimpact.pdf
> 
<snip>
> OpenOffice.org is free, extremely stable, and supports the ISO Open
> Document Standard. 
> 
and...
> Indian state goes for open source
> By Aaron Tan, ZDNet Asia
> Friday , January 12 2007 06:47 PM
> 
> The Indian state of Tamil Nadu is making a move to adopt open source software, due to concerns over security and the high cost of Windows systems. 
<http://www.zdnetasia.com/news/software/0,39044164,61981452,00.htm>
-- 
Marghanita da Cruz
http://www.ramin.com.au/
Telephone: 0414-869202
Ramin Communications Pty Ltd
ABN: 027-089-713-084



From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au  Wed Jan 17 10:27:08 2007
From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee)
Date: Wed Jan 17 10:27:15 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <C1D259E3.692%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <200701150953.l0F9pS4t021272@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
	<C1D259E3.692%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070116232708.GA10627@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au>

I think the OLPC project has a lot of problems, but most of the
criticism here is poorly thought out.

If support for different projects were fungible, then on a cost
benefit analysis no one would ever put money into anything except
public health and education.  But that doesn't happen in Australia --
even charitable donations go to all kinds of purposes -- and it's
just utopianism to expect it to happen anywhere else.

Development IT projects are not, in most cases, an alternative to
public health ones, but an extra.  And access to information is
critical both for health (how many village clinics in Africa have
access to decent medical reference works?), agriculture (information
about market prices as well as techniques and weather forecasts),
politics (getting input into metropolitan decision making and claiming
rights), and education (obviously).

There's a *lot* more to development than providing food handouts
(which in fact is often a really, really bad idea in fact, as it
risks undermining local food production).  And assuming poor people
can't or wouldn't be able to use IT resources is patronising.

The OLPC project should be criticised for not being cost-effect,
for being too inflexible, etc.  There's nothing wrong with its goals.

Danny.
  ---------------------------------------------------------
  http://dannyreviews.com/ - over nine hundred book reviews
  http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog
  ---------------------------------------------------------

From marghanita at ramin.com.au  Wed Jan 17 10:33:25 2007
From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz)
Date: Wed Jan 17 10:33:06 2007
Subject: [LINK] Re: Straw Pole of Good Bad and ugly online government
	services
In-Reply-To: <45AC5C5A.5000500@ramin.com.au>
References: <45AC5C5A.5000500@ramin.com.au>
Message-ID: <45AD60C5.2010907@ramin.com.au>

Marghanita da Cruz wrote:
<snip>
> For the purposes of this exercise I would like to include all three
> tiers of government and educational institutions if only to include 
> austlii on my good list :-).
<snip>
I think Link deserves a position on the good list.

Can anyone articulate a justification for this other than 
troubleshooting the DCITA and othe Federal government websites...:-)

Marghanita
-- 
Marghanita da Cruz
http://www.ramin.com.au/
Telephone: 0414-869202
Ramin Communications Pty Ltd
ABN: 027-089-713-084



From cas at taz.net.au  Wed Jan 17 10:38:41 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Wed Jan 17 10:38:40 2007
Subject: [LINK] For Windows Vista Security, Microsoft Called in Pros
In-Reply-To: <45A424C6.6090001@lannet.com.au>
References: <20070110070232.y0ogc5bb8zggs08k@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
	<45A41710.80703@ramin.com.au> <45A424C6.6090001@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070116233841.GG26390@taz.net.au>

On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 10:27:02AM +1100, Howard Lowndes wrote:
> >Also, can anyone pinpoint why I can't view this page (in Mozilla 1.4 - 
> >ok, I said I was planning to upgrade...but haven't quite got there yet)
> ><http://www.dcita.gov.au/communications_and_technology/consultation_and_submissions/review_of_the_structure_and_operation_of_the_.au_internet_domain> 
> 
> Without going into too much research it looks like a problem with their 
> TCP stack.  The first packet appears and then the sockets stall, 
> probably doing the ACK.

that's often a sign that some moron has misconfigured a firewall to
block *ALL* ICMP traffic, including ICMP "fragmentation required" (i.e.
"packet is too big, send smaller packets") - this idiocy causes, amongst
other problems, Path MTU Discovery to fail.

given that you can't ping www.dcita.gov.au, that seems a pretty likely
cause.

the actual symptom is that small packets get through, but larger ones
don't. so a http HEAD request will work, but a GET will fail - which is
what is happening here. another common symptom is that small emails (a
line or two of text) will get through, but larger ones wont.





for more info on why blocking ICMP is broken, see:

Broken Path MTU Discovery:

http://www.burgettsys.com/stories/56239/

which describes the problem AND contains a link to a site with a good
explanation of PMTU Discovery: http://www.netheaven.com/pmtu.html


and

Common ISP Mistakes:

http://www.freelabs.com/~whitis/isp_mistakes.html


craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From rick at praxis.com.au  Wed Jan 17 11:12:30 2007
From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Wed Jan 17 11:12:48 2007
Subject: [LINK] Bilingualism Has Protective Effect In Delaying Onset Of
	Dementia By Four Years, Canadian Study Shows
In-Reply-To: <45AC6C82.3070807@lannet.com.au>
References: <45AC6C82.3070807@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <45AD69EE.10304@praxis.com.au>

Howard Lowndes wrote:

> http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=60646
> 
> "Canadian scientists have found astonishing evidence that the lifelong 
> use of two languages can help delay the onset of dementia symptoms by 
> four years compared to people who are monolingual."

I've always thought that Aussies go balmy earlier than Canucks :)
J'ai toujours pens? que les aussies devenu toqu? avant que les canadiens :)

cheers
rickw



-- 
_________________________________
Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services

Almost every man wastes part of his life attempting to display qualities
which he does not possess.
      -- Samuel Johnson
From marghanita at ramin.com.au  Wed Jan 17 11:16:37 2007
From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz)
Date: Wed Jan 17 11:16:24 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <20070116232708.GA10627@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au>
References: <200701150953.l0F9pS4t021272@anumail0.anu.edu.au>	<C1D259E3.692%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<20070116232708.GA10627@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <45AD6AE5.70200@ramin.com.au>

Danny Yee wrote:
<snip>
> Development IT projects are not, in most cases, an alternative to
> public health ones, but an extra.  And access to information is
> critical both for health (how many village clinics in Africa have
> access to decent medical reference works?), agriculture (information
> about market prices as well as techniques and weather forecasts),
> politics (getting input into metropolitan decision making and claiming
> rights), and education (obviously).
<snip>
Danny,

I don't think they need a computer or the Internet, in Iraq,
to tell them that lack  of clean water and sewarage and
garbage everywhere because of the destruction of
infrastructure is a health problem.

though maybe the americans do.

marghanita
-- 
Marghanita da Cruz
http://www.ramin.com.au/
Telephone: 0414-869202
Ramin Communications Pty Ltd
ABN: 027-089-713-084




From ahornby at darlug.org  Wed Jan 17 11:19:55 2007
From: ahornby at darlug.org (anthony hornby)
Date: Wed Jan 17 11:20:07 2007
Subject: [LINK] 'The Business of Free Software'
In-Reply-To: <p06240868c1d309ebf7c3@[192.168.123.167]>
References: <p06240868c1d309ebf7c3@[192.168.123.167]>
Message-ID: <1168993195.6891.22.camel@bacchus>

Thanks Roger,
Makes some reasonable statements about why corporations are involved in
OSS. Hardly surprising ones though.

As to which platform should be the platform of choice, that's easy, it
is always "the best one to suit your needs".

Open source should be one choice that is considered when selecting a
technology solution. It is up to you to work out within your own
environment, considering what your organisations priorities and needs
are, whether it is the best choice.

If only all technology decisions were made based on good understanding
of the need/s, and partnered with sane and careful examination of
suitability to that identified need/s<grin>.

Thanks for the links.

Anthony.

On Wed, 2007-01-17 at 10:04 +1100, Roger Clarke wrote:
> The Business of Free Software
> January 15, 2007
> http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/5574.html
> 
> Reports on the following working paper / preprint:
> 
> Marco Iansiti and Gregory L. Richards
> "The Business of Free Software: Enterprise Incentives, Investment, 
> and Motivation in the Open Source Community,"
> HBS Working Paper 07-028,
> http://www.hbs.edu/research/pdf/07-028.pdf
> 
> "OSS is a business tool that has been used by a variety of 
> corporations for very logical purposes," notes Iansiti. "If you have 
> an environment in which part of the service you provide and the 
> product you sell can be given away for free, that changes the 
> dynamics of the industry. As a company, you will most likely spend 
> more time thinking about exactly what to give away and how to couple 
> it with complementary products and services than you do anything 
> else."
> 
-- 
Mr Anthony Hornby
Associate Director, Resources and Technology
Library and Information Access
Charles Darwin University (CRICOS 300K)
Phone: +61 8 8946 6011
Email: anthony.hornby@cdu.edu.au.no-spam
(remove the .no-spam)

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little 
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Wed Jan 17 11:19:35 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Wed Jan 17 11:22:01 2007
Subject: [LINK] Bilingualism Has Protective Effect In Delaying Onset Of
	Dementia By Four Years, Canadian Study Shows
In-Reply-To: <200701160951.l0G9ol0d001673@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <C1D3B6C6.69D%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>

Howard reveals:

> "Canadian scientists have found astonishing evidence that the lifelong
> use of two languages can help delay the onset of dementia symptoms by
> four years compared to people who are monolingual."


I vaguely remember, a few years ago, there was a research report that
pointed out that some early Altzheimer sufferers, who were having problems
finding words in one language, were often quite fluent in another - if they
were bilingual, of course.

It showed how localised some of the damage is.  But this idea certainly
extends the question into a new area of inquiry/enquiry.



-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458

From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au  Wed Jan 17 11:42:50 2007
From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee)
Date: Wed Jan 17 11:42:59 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <45AD6AE5.70200@ramin.com.au>
References: <200701150953.l0F9pS4t021272@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
	<C1D259E3.692%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<20070116232708.GA10627@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au>
	<45AD6AE5.70200@ramin.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070117004250.GE10627@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au>

Marghanita da Cruz wrote:
> I don't think they need a computer or the Internet, in Iraq,
> to tell them that lack  of clean water and sewarage and
> garbage everywhere because of the destruction of
> infrastructure is a health problem.
 
No, but how are they going to let the world know about their situation?
Access to the Internet by ordinary Iraqis has helped counter the spin
put out by the US military and administration.

Danny.
  ---------------------------------------------------------
  http://dannyreviews.com/ - over nine hundred book reviews
  http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog
  ---------------------------------------------------------

From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au  Wed Jan 17 11:59:12 2007
From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry)
Date: Wed Jan 17 11:59:24 2007
Subject: [LINK] Bilingualism Has Protective Effect In Delaying Onset Of
	Dementia By Four Years, Canadian Study Shows
In-Reply-To: <45AD69EE.10304@praxis.com.au>
References: <45AC6C82.3070807@lannet.com.au> <45AD69EE.10304@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <3DC4833C-65E8-4CAD-A7CC-D0B89AA6AA68@tony-barry.emu.id.au>


On 17/01/2007, at 11:12 AM, Rick Welykochy wrote:

>> http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=60646
>> "Canadian scientists have found astonishing evidence that the  
>> lifelong use of two languages can help delay the onset of dementia  
>> symptoms by four years compared to people who are monolingual."
>
> I've always thought that Aussies go balmy earlier than Canucks :)
> J'ai toujours pens? que les aussies devenu toqu? avant que les  
> canadiens :)


Hmmmm... The Japanese live for a long time. No wonder with Kanji,  
Katakana , Hiragana and Romanan characters.

Tony

phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au
http://tony-barry.emu.id.au



From marghanita at ramin.com.au  Wed Jan 17 12:20:39 2007
From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz)
Date: Wed Jan 17 12:20:25 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <20070117004250.GE10627@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au>
References: <200701150953.l0F9pS4t021272@anumail0.anu.edu.au>	<C1D259E3.692%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>	<20070116232708.GA10627@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au>	<45AD6AE5.70200@ramin.com.au>
	<20070117004250.GE10627@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <45AD79E7.3010100@ramin.com.au>

Danny Yee wrote:
> Marghanita da Cruz wrote:
> 
>>I don't think they need a computer or the Internet, in Iraq,
>>to tell them that lack  of clean water and sewarage and
>>garbage everywhere because of the destruction of
>>infrastructure is a health problem.
> 
>  
> No, but how are they going to let the world know about their situation?
> Access to the Internet by ordinary Iraqis has helped counter the spin
> put out by the US military and administration.

...those would be bilingual/script iraquis..
-- 
Marghanita da Cruz
http://www.ramin.com.au/
Telephone: 0414-869202
Ramin Communications Pty Ltd
ABN: 027-089-713-084



From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Wed Jan 17 12:57:22 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Wed Jan 17 12:59:48 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <200701170100.l0H10GwC025907@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <C1D3CDB2.6A2%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>

Danny writes:

> If support for different projects were fungible, then on a cost
> benefit analysis no one would ever put money into anything except
> public health and education.  But that doesn't happen in Australia --
> even charitable donations go to all kinds of purposes -- and it's
> just utopianism to expect it to happen anywhere else.
> 
> Development IT projects are not, in most cases, an alternative to
> public health ones, but an extra.

The reason it doesn't happen in Australia is because the base standards are
so much higher for the vast majority of citizens, that public health and
education is reasonably covered.

In places like Africa, philanthropic support for different projects are
entirely fungible.  And the problems are so obviously at the base public
health and survival level, that, to even consider spending good money on
laptops for every child, is patently ridiculous.

Maslow's hierarch of needs and wants, rested on a foundation of survival
essentials.  Only when these are reasonably in place do you begin to built
on this, layers of less-essential kinds.

It is an excellent concept that appears to have been neglected in recent
years.

Laptops would, in my opinion, be at the top of his hierarchy with such
desirable items as monthly supplies of fairy-floss.

> And assuming poor people can't or wouldn't be able to use IT resources is
> patronising.

It is not patronising to point out that people who lack food, water,
sanitation, basic medicines, permanent homes, clothes, electric power, the
ability to read, and a few hundred other items essential for survival before
they need laptops, is just plain common sense.

You'd give them transistor radios before you introduced laptops.
You'd give them TVs before you gave them laptops.
You'd give them bicycles before you gave them laptops.
You'd give them electric power and water and food and roads before you gave
them laptops.

With the best wishes in the world to those earnestly involved in these
projects, there's a distinct appearance of the same sort of social
disconnect that had a certain French queen suggesting that the poor should
eat cake.


-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458

From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au  Wed Jan 17 13:10:22 2007
From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke)
Date: Wed Jan 17 13:10:44 2007
Subject: [LINK] RFI: Dublin Core 10 Years On
Message-ID: <p06240805c1d3321d639e@[192.168.123.167]>

Help!

Someone wrote to me:
>I am a [librarianship] researcher with the State of California. 
>During a recent project I stumbled across your 1997 review of the 
>hazards posed by the simplicity of the Dublin Core.  For my own 
>information only, I was wondering if your thoughts from 1997, hold 
>true 10 years later 2007 or if you have altered your opinion.

I've not looked at the state of play in quite some years.

I'd much appreciate any reactions, and pointers to any useful analyses.

My impression is that a lot of developments have occurred alongside 
rather than as part of the Dublin Code movement, e.g. DOI, DRM.

The organisation is still there:  http://dublincore.org/about/

Of course, metadata-based search has been held back by the 
ease-of-use and surprisingly decent quality (at least for 
non-professional searchers) of brute-force full-text search-engines, 
in particular Google.

Has auto-generation of metadata arrived?

Are there convenient mechanisms to support authors to quickly 
generate metadata for their documents just before they release them?


What I wrote in 1997 was:

Beyond the Dublin Core:  Rich Meta-Data and Convenience-of-Use Are 
Compatible After All
http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/II/DublinCore.html

" ... a reaction against what the author perceives as the dangerous 
simplicity of the Dublin Core. It explains the author's disquiet, and 
proposes ways in which that scheme's proponents can achieve their 
aims without creating something that we'll all shortly regret."

"The purposes of this paper are:
*   to establish that meta-data for objects that are intrinsically 
complex needs to have a rich structure;
*   to show that this richness does not necessarily imply that user 
interfaces must be unwieldy; and
*   to point the way towards a solution that is superior to the 
present Dublin Core proposal in regard to data structures, and 
capable of being easy to use.

The weaknesses I identified were:
1. 'Simple to a Fault'
2. Incomplete List of Data-Items
3. Lack of Structure
4. Unclear Scope of Applicability to Data Formats
5. Failure to Analyse Rights Management Issues
6. Failure to Address Object-Identity
7. Failure to Allow for Multiple Instances of Meta-Data
8. Failure to Address Ephemeral Objects
9. Failure to Address Instrumental Uses of Meta-Data

"To satisfy the desire for simplicity of use, the 'user views' notion 
could be applied to produce a tiered set of cataloguing mechanisms, 
along the following lines:

*   establish a very simple form of meta-data generator based on the 
existing windows that word processors provide for capturing author 
information. This could be supplemented by the generation of default 
keywords from titles, headings, and the document summary or abstract. 
The user interface would therefore be a modified version of windows 
already familiar to document authors;

*   establish similar tools for describing objects other than textual 
documents, such as images and interviews;

*   provide a utility that gathers information from an 
object-originator, and generates a set of meta-data from the data 
provided. This may involve:
     *   a fixed form;
     *   a conversation or interaction, with a variable sequence of 
questions depending on the data provided in response to the early 
questions; or
     *   a mix of prompted and inferred processing; and
     *   a set of complex forms and interactions whereby a cataloguer 
has access to the full sophistication of the meta-data data 
structures (together with, of course, an appropriate help-mechanism).


-- 
Roger Clarke                  http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/
			            
Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd      78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA
                    Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916
mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au                http://www.xamax.com.au/

Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng  Australian National University
Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program      University of Hong Kong
Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre      Uni of NSW
From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au  Wed Jan 17 13:49:37 2007
From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke)
Date: Wed Jan 17 13:49:55 2007
Subject: [LINK] EMI: Free streaming music for China
Message-ID: <p06240809c1d33e764841@[192.168.123.167]>

[Comments at end]

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070116-8630.html

EMI: Free streaming music for China
1/16/2007 12:38:53 PM, by Nate Anderson

It's tough to do business in China when you're a music label. With
piracy rates estimated at around 90 percent, cash can be hard to come by
even if you have a popular product. In a new initiative designed to make
legal music as compelling as the pirated variety, EMI has partnered with
Baidu to offer free streaming of its Typhoon Music joint venture.

Baidu is the largest search engine in China, which makes it a go-to
destination for music searches. In fact, it was so successful that it
got sued by the major music labels last year (along with Yahoo! China).
They argued that Baidu was liable for providing links to copyrighted
material, while the search engine claimed that it could not be held
responsible for determining the legality of every link in its index.

Baidu has been doing well in court, which may have led EMI to craft a
deal rather than risk continued litigation. The new service will stream
the complete Typhoon Music catalog for free to Baidu users, who will "be
exposed to Internet advertising," according to a statement. If the
service works well, the two companies have future plans to develop
advertising-supported downloads as well.

EMI has realized that it needs to compete with piracy as a business
model, not simply to sue the problem out of existence (an impossibility
in China, anyway). When the vast majority of your intellectual property
is being ripped off, there's not much to lose by experimenting with new
distribution methods. If the trial goes well, we expect other labels to
announce similar partnerships. It's not their preferred method of
distribution, but some yuan are better than no yuan.


[Golly, it's true.  China may be starting to lead the world ...

[We've tried for years to get the music industry to grasp what's 
going on, experiment with P2P in order to find appropriate 
techniques, and price sensibly.  They're *finally* getting that 
message (witness the recent Kazaa deal, and the ongoing BitTorrent 
negotiations).

[But now, in parallel with that, it seems that they're experimenting 
with 'pay with your attention instead of your money' approaches!]

-- 
Roger Clarke                  http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/

Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd      78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA
                    Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916
mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au                http://www.xamax.com.au/

Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng  Australian National University
Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program      University of Hong Kong
Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre      Uni of NSW
From wavey_one at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 17 13:55:23 2007
From: wavey_one at yahoo.com (David Goldstein)
Date: Wed Jan 17 13:55:34 2007
Subject: [LINK] Designing for an Accessible Website workshops
Message-ID: <493429.97972.qm@web50103.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi all,

Following on from some related debate on the list last year, I?ve discovered that Vision Australia is running more accessibility workshops over the next 6 months.

Dates are:
Adelaide - 7 March 2007

Brisbane - 21 February 2007 and 7 June 2007

Canberra - 12 April 2007 (Less Technical) and 13 April 2007 (General)

Melbourne - 14 February 2007 

Sydney - 28 March 2007.

More information is available from http://visionaustralia.org.au/info.aspx?page=684 and cost is $475 per person plus GST.

Cheers
David

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com 

From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au  Wed Jan 17 14:58:35 2007
From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee)
Date: Wed Jan 17 14:58:42 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <C1D3CDB2.6A2%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <200701170100.l0H10GwC025907@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
	<C1D3CDB2.6A2%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070117035835.GB16480@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au>

Stewart Fist wrote:
> In places like Africa, philanthropic support for different projects are
> entirely fungible.  

This isn't true.  Different NGOs have very different charters:
you won't see MSF funding agriculture projects, for example, and
if WWF funds a health project it will be a an accompaniment to
a conservation project.  And it's the same with state resources:
different departments and sectors compete for funding and attention
and argue over legislation.

There's no fundamental difference between Australia and Africa in this
regard, and insisting that there is or should be is neo-colonialism.
If it's unethical to do charity work in Kenya that isn't directly
helping people who are actually hungry or homeless or sick or
illiterate, then it's just as unethical to give money to any charity
in Australia not dealing with the homeless and hungry and sick and
illiterate -- and check out the state of indigenous health if you
think we don't have any problems here.

> And the problems are so obviously at the base public
> health and survival level, that, to even consider spending good money on
> laptops for every child, is patently ridiculous.

So you'd rather the government spent the money on weapons instead
of laptops?  If everything is fungible, that's just as sensible a
comparison to make, and by that standard the OLPC is a 100% no-brainer
great idea.  (If we assume a "laptop project" is to be funded out
of general revenue, then in many poor countries that would mean less
than 1% of the money is being taken from public health and over 50%
of it is being taken from military spending.)

And again, I stress that both access to information and the ability
to lobby for entitlements is critical for public health.  In many
countries, the problem with public health systems is less how much
funding it gets than how little of that actually reaches the people who
need it.  Anything that improves their ability to pressure governments
to improve this may be far more signficant than just pushing more
money into the existing system.

And projects like OLPC are like panda conservation projects.  From no
biological cost-benefit perspective does it make any sense to devote
the amount of resources to pandas that they get.  But they
	1) attract publicity that more important projects wouldn't get
	2) attract funding that less charismatic projects won't get
	3) have spill-over effects in other areas
	4) are a positive contribution to the world

Of course, if it were up to me I would have started with the
experience of projects deploying "conventional" hardware to network
local organisations, and tried to address known problems that might
be fixed by hardware innovation...

Danny.
  ---------------------------------------------------------
  http://dannyreviews.com/ - over nine hundred book reviews
  http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog
  ---------------------------------------------------------

From glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au  Wed Jan 17 15:33:39 2007
From: glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au (Glen Turner)
Date: Wed Jan 17 15:33:52 2007
Subject: [LINK] RFI: Dublin Core 10 Years On
In-Reply-To: <p06240805c1d3321d639e@[192.168.123.167]>
References: <p06240805c1d3321d639e@[192.168.123.167]>
Message-ID: <45ADA723.3050402@aarnet.edu.au>

Roger Clarke wrote:

> My impression is that a lot of developments have occurred alongside 
> rather than as part of the Dublin Code movement, e.g. DOI, DRM.

On the other hand a lot of file formats which need simple metadata
use Dublin Core to do the job, especially in XML file formats.
Two examples are Open Document Format and Scalable Vector Graphics.

 > Are there convenient mechanisms to support authors to quickly generate
 > metadata for their documents just before they release them?

Users who fill in Open Office.org's (ODF) Document Properties or
Inkscape's (SVG) Image Properties or Acrobat's (PDF) Properties
are creating Dublin Core records (in an eXensible Metadata
Platform wrapper) they just don't know it.  OOo creates a Dublin
Core record automatically containing the file name, date, user's
name and organisation and can be configured to prompt for
the other meta-data when saving for the first time.

In that sense Dublin Core has been a success. It prevented
a multiplicity of formats for representing basic metadata.
Certainly new XML formats that use something other than XMP
with DC for metadata about the content have the cluestick
applied pretty quickly.

The definition of Dublin Core has been tightened up with
more fields having recommendations to use a controlled
vocabulary. That should help user interfaces considerably
as users are much more likely to use a sticky dropdown
rather than enter data into a empty field.

You might want to compare Dublin Core with the metadata
in MP3 files. ID3 tags were invented by amateurs and
it shows. For example the controlled vocabulary for
Genre is next to useless -- it differentiates Ballad
and Power Ballad but there are no entries for Spoken Word
let alone differentiating Spoken Word from Book Reading [1].
And the ID3 Year applies to the year of release of the
CD, although in practice everyone uses it as if it
were the year of recording of the track.

Then there was the question of if the ID3 tag
goes at the start of the end of the file and
if it is padded.  In practice you write the data
in both formats as some players use one format
and other players use the other format.

In short, you can see what happens without a well
considered document like Dublin Core, even though
Dublin Core appears almost trivial.

> Has auto-generation of metadata arrived?

That's the worst of all worlds. Automatically generated
metadata that attempts to analyse content will never
be perfect, so you are capturing the progress of the
technology at the time the record is created. Better
to use full text and use today's technology to analyse
the content.

Cheers, Glen

  [1] ID3 Genre tags:

["Blues", "Classic Rock","Country","Dance","Disco","Funk","Grunge","Hip-Hop","Jazz","Metal",
"New Age","Oldies","Other","Pop","R&B","Rap","Reggae","Rock","Techno","Industrial","Alternative",
"Ska","Death Metal","Pranks","Soundtrack","Euro-Techno","Ambient","Trip-Hop","Vocal","Jazz+Funk",
"Fusion","Trance","Classical","Instrumental","Acid","House","Game","Sound Clip","Gospel","Noise",
"AlternRock","Bass","Soul","Punk","Space","Meditative","Instrumental Pop","Instrumental Rock",
"Ethnic","Gothic","Darkwave","Techno-Industrial","Electronic","Pop-Folk","Eurodance","Dream",
"Southern Rock","Comedy","Cult","Gangsta","Top 40","Christian Rap","Pop/Funk","Jungle","Native American",
"Cabaret","New Wave","Psychadelic","Rave","Showtunes","Trailer","Lo-Fi","Tribal","Acid Punk",
"Acid Jazz","Polka","Retro","Musical","Rock & Roll","Hard Rock","Folk","Folk-Rock","National Folk",
"Swing","Fast Fusion","Bebob","Latin","Revival","Celtic","Bluegrass","Avantgarde","Gothic Rock",
"Progressive Rock","Psychedelic Rock","Symphonic Rock","Slow Rock","Big Band","Chorus",
"Easy Listening","Acoustic","Humour","Speech","Chanson","Opera","Chamber Music","Sonata",
"Symphony","Booty Bass","Primus","Porn Groove","Satire","Slow Jam","Club","Tango","Samba",
"Folklore","Ballad","Power Ballad","Rhythmic Soul","Freestyle","Duet","Punk Rock","Drum Solo",
"A capella","Euro-House","Dance Hall"]


-- 
  Glen Turner         Tel: (08) 8303 3936 or +61 8 8303 3936
  Australia's Academic & Research Network  www.aarnet.edu.au
From ivan at itrundle.com  Wed Jan 17 15:43:23 2007
From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle)
Date: Wed Jan 17 15:43:42 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <C1D3CDB2.6A2%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <C1D3CDB2.6A2%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <3CDD63D7-9F8D-409A-A57B-383EA83A21DD@itrundle.com>

Has anyone actually worked out *who* the OLPC is actually aimed at  
being delivered to? We are all making gross generalisations here, in  
that we assume that only the very poor would be issued with the devices.

I'm not asking a rhetorical question: it's just that I've yet to find  
the article that has the demographics of the intended customers of  
this device. Maybe they all have fairy floss at the top of their  
needs list, and maybe they have transistor radios, decent plumbing,  
plentiful food, robust shelter, etc. (I simply don't know)

iT

On 17/01/2007, at 12:57 PM, Stewart Fist wrote:

> Danny writes:
>
>> If support for different projects were fungible, then on a cost
>> benefit analysis no one would ever put money into anything except
>> public health and education.  But that doesn't happen in Australia --
>> even charitable donations go to all kinds of purposes -- and it's
>> just utopianism to expect it to happen anywhere else.
>>
>> Development IT projects are not, in most cases, an alternative to
>> public health ones, but an extra.
>
> The reason it doesn't happen in Australia is because the base  
> standards are
> so much higher for the vast majority of citizens, that public  
> health and
> education is reasonably covered.
>
> In places like Africa, philanthropic support for different projects  
> are
> entirely fungible.  And the problems are so obviously at the base  
> public
> health and survival level, that, to even consider spending good  
> money on
> laptops for every child, is patently ridiculous.
>
> Maslow's hierarch of needs and wants, rested on a foundation of  
> survival
> essentials.  Only when these are reasonably in place do you begin  
> to built
> on this, layers of less-essential kinds.
>
> It is an excellent concept that appears to have been neglected in  
> recent
> years.
>
> Laptops would, in my opinion, be at the top of his hierarchy with such
> desirable items as monthly supplies of fairy-floss.
>
>> And assuming poor people can't or wouldn't be able to use IT  
>> resources is
>> patronising.
>
> It is not patronising to point out that people who lack food, water,
> sanitation, basic medicines, permanent homes, clothes, electric  
> power, the
> ability to read, and a few hundred other items essential for  
> survival before
> they need laptops, is just plain common sense.
>
> You'd give them transistor radios before you introduced laptops.
> You'd give them TVs before you gave them laptops.
> You'd give them bicycles before you gave them laptops.
> You'd give them electric power and water and food and roads before  
> you gave
> them laptops.
>
> With the best wishes in the world to those earnestly involved in these
> projects, there's a distinct appearance of the same sort of social
> disconnect that had a certain French queen suggesting that the poor  
> should
> eat cake.
>
>
> -- 
> Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
> 70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
> Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458
>
> _______________________________________________
> Link mailing list
> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au
> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link
>
> !DSPAM:1009,45ad839977002894232319!
>
>

--
Ivan Trundle
http://itrundle.com ivan@itrundle.com
ph: +61 (0)418 244 259 fx: +61 (0)2 6286 8742
skype: callto://ivanovitchk


From rw at firstpr.com.au  Wed Jan 17 15:55:36 2007
From: rw at firstpr.com.au (Robin Whittle)
Date: Wed Jan 17 15:56:13 2007
Subject: [LINK] 1.5 Mbps limit lifted from Telstra's ADSL DSLAMs?
In-Reply-To: <45A6EE08.6040409@firstpr.com.au>
References: <45A61614.30809@firstpr.com.au> <20070111213840.GW26390@taz.net.au>
	<45A6EE08.6040409@firstpr.com.au>
Message-ID: <45ADAC48.7080801@firstpr.com.au>

I rebooted my server, and therefore the ADSL link and had the new
improved speed this afternoon.

Using the Java applet DSL speed test at:

  http://www.internode.on.net/tools/speedtest/index.htm

on a Windows machine, going via the Linux machine to the ADSL link:

          Downstream                Upstream
Before    1267 kbps = 154.7 kBps    303 kbps = 37.0 kBps

After     3137 kbps = 383.0 kBps    304 kbps = 37.1 kBps

These are application data throughput rates.  So this is 2.5 times the
original speed, which resulted from a 1500 kbps limit on the actual
communication link.  The "before" tests were done with the mail server
running, so if emails were coming in, then the reported figure is an
underestimate of the true speed of the link.

The wget HTTP download from http://mirror.aarnet.edu.au used to run at
about 155 kBps (with the mail server running).  Now it runs consistently
at 411 kBps, which is 2.66 times the original speed.

So this is $10 a month well spent!  Uplinks are no faster.

I would say the underlying downstream rate is ~2.5 x 1500 ~= 3.75 to 4
Megabits per second.

Taking the most likely route of main roads from the Heidelberg
"exchange" building to our home, we are about 3.6 km from the DSLAM.
This area was developed in the 1950s and 1960s.  The pit outside is 1980
or 1990s vintage, with a black plastic cable inside, which I guess is 50
pair or so.  I am not sure if this is original wiring or not.  Some
nearby streets have aerial distribution of the phone wires to houses,
with either aerial cable or buried cable running up the poles, but ours
is all underground.  Maybe they rewired the street in the 1970s or 1980s.

  - Robin

From bpa at iss.net.au  Wed Jan 17 15:59:49 2007
From: bpa at iss.net.au (Brenda Aynsley)
Date: Wed Jan 17 16:00:15 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <3CDD63D7-9F8D-409A-A57B-383EA83A21DD@itrundle.com>
References: <C1D3CDB2.6A2%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<3CDD63D7-9F8D-409A-A57B-383EA83A21DD@itrundle.com>
Message-ID: <45ADAD45.3090202@iss.net.au>

Ivan Trundle wrote:
> Has anyone actually worked out *who* the OLPC is actually aimed at being 
> delivered to? We are all making gross generalisations here, in that we 
> assume that only the very poor would be issued with the devices.
> 

I recall in the very earliest days that the idea was to sell in lots of 
  $million to governments.  I would have thought then that each 
purchaser would have an intended audience in mind for their million 
dollar investment.  Presumably its a classroom/education program rather 
than a mum and dad at home investment.

cheers
brenda

-- 
Brenda Aynsley, FACS
Director Oz Business Partners http://www.ozbusinesspartners.com/
Mobile:+61(0) 412 662 988 || Skype: callto://baynsley
Phone:08 8357 8844  Fax:08 8272 7486 Nodephone:08 7127 0107

Chairman Pearcey Foundation, SA Committee www.pearcey.org.au
Immediate Past Chairman ACS SA Branch www.acs.org.au/sa

From jwhit at janwhitaker.com  Wed Jan 17 16:31:18 2007
From: jwhit at janwhitaker.com (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Wed Jan 17 16:34:03 2007
Subject: [LINK] Aussie Open score update page
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$27fq3r@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

I know many linker poo-pood some of the new online services. This one 
is sorta cool if you can't watch online or on tv during the match. It 
appears to update nearly realtime.

http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/scores/index.html


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From carl at xena.IPAustralia.gov.au  Wed Jan 17 16:49:57 2007
From: carl at xena.IPAustralia.gov.au (Carl Makin)
Date: Wed Jan 17 16:49:56 2007
Subject: [LINK] Keeping FreeBSD up to date vs. Debian
In-Reply-To: <45A711FF.9000004@firstpr.com.au>
References: <45A61614.30809@firstpr.com.au>	<20070111213840.GW26390@taz.net.au>	<45A6EE08.6040409@firstpr.com.au>	<20070112025057.GX26390@taz.net.au>
	<45A707DF.5080605@praxis.com.au> <45A711FF.9000004@firstpr.com.au>
Message-ID: <87AAFD9C-FA4C-42A7-B208-511C6459F122@xena.ipaustralia.gov.au>

Hi Robin,

On 12/01/2007, at 3:43 PM, Robin Whittle wrote:

> I was referring not to setting up the operating system, but keeping it
> up-to-date in terms of security patches.  I spent a long time  
> trying to
> figure out a foolproof, simple, way of doing this with FreeBSD 5.3  
> - and
> didn't reach a good conclusion.  I am not saying it can't be done -  
> just
> that I couldn't find it after quite a few hours trying.

The tools for keeping up to date in FreeBSD are detailed in the  
FreeBSD Handbook.

The only way to do a *foolproof* upgrade is to do it somewhere else  
first, then upgrade the main system.  I run a FreeBSD 6.1 box as my  
main server here serving a number of mailing lists and websites which  
I upgrade in place regularly with no problems.

Look for cvsup and portupgrade in the handbook for upgrading the  
system, and portaudit in the ports tree for an automated method for  
auditing your installed applications for published security issues.


Carl.

From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Wed Jan 17 18:03:23 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Wed Jan 17 18:05:53 2007
Subject: [LINK] Re: Link Digest, Vol 170, Issue 38
In-Reply-To: <200701170550.l0H5oBPu024080@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <C1D4156B.6A7%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>

Brendan writes:

> So you'd rather the government spent the money on weapons instead
> of laptops? 

I assume you just let your emotions get you carried away here, because this
is patently ridiculous.

In your off-list comment,
 
> I wouldn't necessarily give them radios or TVs before a laptop.

... you are also ridiculously over the top.

The fact is that illiterate people can understand audio and video - but
surfing the net is generally beyond their capabilities.  You can build a
radio with a solar panel or hand-generator that doesn't need a month's wages
for batteries.  A radio station for millions can be programmed by a few
people from their own community who know the language.


And if we aren't talking about these devices for the Third World, then what
are we talking about?



-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458

From david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au  Wed Jan 17 20:54:10 2007
From: david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au (David Boxall)
Date: Wed Jan 17 20:54:32 2007
Subject: [LINK] Telstra propose biggest rollout in Australia's history
Message-ID: <45ADF242.1000904@hunterlink.net.au>

<http://www.itnews.com.au/newsstory.aspx?CIaNID=44481&r=rss>

"Telstra is seeking $600 million in funding from the Australian 
Government's Broadband Connect Infrastructure program to extend backhaul 
infrastructure to a range of remote communities, install ADSL broadband 
equipment in 1,560 exchanges and upgrade 1,029 large pair gain systems 
that currently prevent access to ADSL broadband services in some rural 
and regional areas."

-- 
David Boxall                    |  My figures are just as good
                                 |  as any other figures.
                                 |  I make them up myself, and they
                                 |  always give me innocent pleasure.
                                 |                     --HL Mencken
From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Wed Jan 17 21:41:26 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Wed Jan 17 21:44:09 2007
Subject: [LINK] Telstra propose biggest rollout in Australia's
  history
In-Reply-To: <45ADF242.1000904@hunterlink.net.au>
References: <45ADF242.1000904@hunterlink.net.au>
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$27itpf@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 08:54 PM 17/01/2007, David Boxall wrote:

>"Telstra is seeking $600 million in funding from the Australian 
>Government's Broadband Connect Infrastructure program to extend 
>backhaul infrastructure to a range of remote communities, install 
>ADSL broadband equipment in 1,560 exchanges and upgrade 1,029 large 
>pair gain systems that currently prevent access to ADSL broadband 
>services in some rural and regional areas."

Two words: corporate welfare.


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From grove at zeta.org.au  Wed Jan 17 22:55:44 2007
From: grove at zeta.org.au (grove@zeta.org.au)
Date: Wed Jan 17 22:55:58 2007
Subject: [LINK] Telstra propose biggest rollout in Australia's history
In-Reply-To: <5ii0ro$27itpf@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
References: <45ADF242.1000904@hunterlink.net.au>
	<5ii0ro$27itpf@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701172250110.4984@zathras.uws.edu.au>

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007, Jan Whitaker wrote:

> At 08:54 PM 17/01/2007, David Boxall wrote:
>
>> "Telstra is seeking $600 million in funding from the Australian 
>> Government's Broadband Connect Infrastructure program to extend backhaul 
>> infrastructure to a range of remote communities, install ADSL broadband 
>> equipment in 1,560 exchanges and upgrade 1,029 large pair gain systems that 
>> currently prevent access to ADSL broadband services in some rural and 
>> regional areas."
>
> Two words: corporate welfare.

But wasn't there a fateful 
3 billion dollar rollout of FTTN services that was scotched
when Johnny and Sol couldn't stay in the same room with each other 
last year?!   What is going on here?


rachel

-- 
Rachel Polanskis                 Kingswood, Greater Western Sydney, Australia
grove@zeta.org.au                http://www.zeta.org.au/~grove/grove.html
 	"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security,
 	deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin, 1759
From foconnor at ozemail.com.au  Wed Jan 17 23:31:07 2007
From: foconnor at ozemail.com.au (Frank O'Connor)
Date: Wed Jan 17 23:31:26 2007
Subject: [LINK] Telstra propose biggest rollout in Australia's  
 history
In-Reply-To: <5ii0ro$27itpf@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
References: <45ADF242.1000904@hunterlink.net.au>
	<5ii0ro$27itpf@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <p06240800c1d3c6f4b248@[192.168.0.2]>

At 9:41 PM +1100 on 17/1/07 Jan wrote:
>At 08:54 PM 17/01/2007, David Boxall wrote:
>
>>"Telstra is seeking $600 million in funding from the Australian 
>>Government's Broadband Connect Infrastructure program to extend 
>>backhaul infrastructure to a range of remote communities, install 
>>ADSL broadband equipment in 1,560 exchanges and upgrade 1,029 large 
>>pair gain systems that currently prevent access to ADSL broadband 
>>services in some rural and regional areas."
>
>Two words: corporate welfare.
>

Mmmm ... I predicted Telstra would make a play for the lions share of 
what's in the trough 12 months back - even as they were saying that 
servicing the country was uneconomic.

						Regards,
From stephen at melbpc.org.au  Thu Jan 18 03:49:38 2007
From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley)
Date: Thu Jan 18 03:49:59 2007
Subject: [LINK] OLPC laptop
In-Reply-To: <45ADAD45.3090202@iss.net.au>
References: <C1D3CDB2.6A2%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<3CDD63D7-9F8D-409A-A57B-383EA83A21DD@itrundle.com>
	<45ADAD45.3090202@iss.net.au>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070118031858.02204dd0@melbpc.org.au>

At 03:59 PM 17/01/2007, Brenda writes:

> Ivan writes:
>
>> Has anyone actually worked out *who* the OLPC is actually aimed
>> at being delivered to? We are all making gross generalisations here,
>> in that we assume that only the very poor would be issued with the devices.

Quite right, Ivan. <quote>  OLPC chief technology officer Mary Lou Jepsen said the group, which is already fielding requests from some US states, was interested in working with Australian governments.  "We plan to roll out over time globally, and we'd like to extend to all countries," she said. "We don't want to ignore anybody." Dr Jepsen said Australian governments could agree to sponsor laptop purchases in developing countries in addition to buying machines for their own students.  "What's happening in some countries like Finland is that they're sponsoring kids in Namibia," she said .. "I have already started working on a $US50 laptop," said Dr Jepsen. </ quote>

> I recall in the very earliest days that the idea was to sell in lots of  $million to governments.  I would have thought then that each purchaser
> would have an intended audience in mind for their million dollar investment.  Presumably its a classroom/education program rather than a
> mum and dad at home investment. cheers brenda

Yes, that's the way it looks, Brenda. <quote> The One Laptop Per Child project - which is shipping hand-cranked laptops to Brazil, Argentina, Libya, Nigeria and Thailand - has sparked the interest of the NT Education Department, which will begin testing the machines when schools recommence later this month.  The machines are designed for use in remote areas .. The downside for Australian education departments - which have invested heavily in traditional branded laptops - is that the OLPC machines run the free Linux operating system, which is not compatible with Microsoft Windows. </ quote>

On the Oz-teacher list, NT teacher Marty, references News Corp, who are backing the scheme : http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,21048174%5E15306%5E%5Enbv%5E,00.html

Cheers all ..
Stephen Loosley
Melbourne, Australia


-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.13/632 - Release Date: 16/01/2007 4:36 PM


From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Thu Jan 18 07:26:14 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Thu Jan 18 07:29:48 2007
Subject: [LINK] Telstra propose biggest rollout in Australia's  history
In-Reply-To: <p06240800c1d3c6f4b248@[192.168.0.2]>
References: <45ADF242.1000904@hunterlink.net.au>
	<5ii0ro$27itpf@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
	<p06240800c1d3c6f4b248@[192.168.0.2]>
Message-ID: <5ii0ro$27nno7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 11:31 PM 17/01/2007, Frank O'Connor wrote:
>>Two words: corporate welfare.
>
>Mmmm ... I predicted Telstra would make a play for the lions share 
>of what's in the trough 12 months back - even as they were saying 
>that servicing the country was uneconomic.

Three words: uneconomic for whom?

It's no skin off the Sol's nose (or bankbook) if the funding comes 
from the taxpayer. Gee, you'd think we still had publicly owned 
telco! What is it with people here? The point of privatisation is to 
let the investors make the CAPITAL investment (see, that's the way 
CapitalISM is supposed to work - I learned that in ECO 101). If the 
government wants to subsidise the USERS of the Capital, that is, the 
Public who are the TAXpayers, then so be it. But to put that sort of 
money in the pockets of Tel$tra is insane.

Wait...I figured it out. John Howard and Peter Costello are from the 
Liberal party, major friend of business. What was I thinking?

Jan


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au  Thu Jan 18 08:37:25 2007
From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke)
Date: Thu Jan 18 08:39:16 2007
Subject: [LINK] Telstra propose biggest rollout in Australia's  history
In-Reply-To: <5ii0ro$27nno7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
References: <45ADF242.1000904@hunterlink.net.au>
	<5ii0ro$27itpf@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
	<p06240800c1d3c6f4b248@[192.168.0.2]>
	<5ii0ro$27nno7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <p0624081bc1d443b783f8@[192.168.123.167]>

>At 11:31 PM 17/01/2007, Frank O'Connor wrote:
>>>Two words: corporate welfare.

I hate to adopt the role of Telstra-defender, but ...

Installing reasonable-level telecomms in even some regional areas, 
let alone rural areas, let alone remote areas, is financially 
infeasible for a company.  If that was its sole source of revenue, it 
would go broke.

The Directors of any company that did any such thing would be subject 
to a lawsuit.  Agreed:  companies cross-subsidise among their 
business lines and business units (although they use other words for 
it).  But they do so with some degree of rationality, i.e. a business 
model that supports it.

The whole meaning of 'nation' embodies the notion of equitable 
services irrespective of location within nation.  (I carefully used 
'equitable' rather than 'equal').

But the appropriate way for that to be achieved is by the taxpayer 
paying the difference between the cost in the conurbations and the 
cost in the various other areas.

The scheme set up by DCITA does that.  Moreover, they called for 
tenders to accept the subsidy and deliver the services.  And Telstra 
seems to believe that they failed to give Telstra an inside run.

Now of course the *real* solution is to drop all this naive belief 
about the magical nature of the private sector, and recognise the 
responsibility of government to create and maintain common 
infrastructure.

But the second-best alternative is to do what the government's doing. 
(I stress that I haven't looked at the *detail* of the DCITA 
tendering arrangements;  so I'm defending the principle not 
necessarily the specifics).

-- 
Roger Clarke                  http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/

Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd      78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA
                    Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916
mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au                http://www.xamax.com.au/

Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng  Australian National University
Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program      University of Hong Kong
Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre      Uni of NSW
From darrell.burkey at anu.edu.au  Thu Jan 18 09:07:52 2007
From: darrell.burkey at anu.edu.au (Darrell Burkey)
Date: Thu Jan 18 09:07:55 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <45ADAD45.3090202@iss.net.au>
References: <C1D3CDB2.6A2%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<3CDD63D7-9F8D-409A-A57B-383EA83A21DD@itrundle.com>
	<45ADAD45.3090202@iss.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701180903120.694@carus.anu.edu.au>


I'm at linuconf.au 2007 now and Chris Blizzard of Mozilla has made several 
presentations about the OLPC project. He has stated quite clearly what 
Brenda says below in that the laptops are meant for sale to 'developing 
countries' in very large numbers. This will also help them reach the 
target cost of $US100 which right now is running at about $US125.

Cheers.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Darrell Burkey, UNIX Systems Administrator
Research School of Pacific & Asian History
College of Asia & the Pacific
Australian National University
Ph: +61-2-6125 4160


On Wed, 17 Jan 2007, Brenda Aynsley wrote:

> I recall in the very earliest days that the idea was to sell in lots of 
> $million to governments.  I would have thought then that each purchaser would 
> have an intended audience in mind for their million dollar investment. 
> Presumably its a classroom/education program rather than a mum and dad at 
> home investment.
>
From cas at taz.net.au  Thu Jan 18 09:26:20 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Thu Jan 18 09:26:20 2007
Subject: [LINK] Telstra propose biggest rollout in Australia's history
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701172250110.4984@zathras.uws.edu.au>
References: <45ADF242.1000904@hunterlink.net.au>
	<5ii0ro$27itpf@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0701172250110.4984@zathras.uws.edu.au>
Message-ID: <20070117222620.GH26390@taz.net.au>

On Wed, Jan 17, 2007 at 10:55:44PM +1100, grove@zeta.org.au wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2007, Jan Whitaker wrote:
> 
> >At 08:54 PM 17/01/2007, David Boxall wrote:
> >
> >>"Telstra is seeking $600 million in funding from the Australian 
> >>Government's Broadband Connect Infrastructure program to extend backhaul 
> >>infrastructure to a range of remote communities, install ADSL broadband 
> >>equipment in 1,560 exchanges and upgrade 1,029 large pair gain systems 
> >>that currently prevent access to ADSL broadband services in some rural 
> >>and regional areas."
> >
> >Two words: corporate welfare.
> 
> But wasn't there a fateful 3 billion dollar rollout of FTTN services
> that was scotched when Johnny and Sol couldn't stay in the same room
> with each other last year?!  What is going on here?

that was the pre-sale choreography, which was designed to drive down the
T3 share price and to give the electorate the false impression that a
fully privatised Telstra would be strictly regulated.

now it's post-sale, where they'll kiss and make up (and the "regulatory
burden" that T whinged so loudly about will gradually be undone) so
that the share price goes back up.


craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au  Thu Jan 18 08:52:12 2007
From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington)
Date: Thu Jan 18 09:29:56 2007
Subject: [LINK] RFI: Dublin Core 10 Years On
In-Reply-To: <p06240805c1d3321d639e@[192.168.123.167]>
References: <p06240805c1d3321d639e@[192.168.123.167]>
Message-ID: <20070117222927.3FF75236CC@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com>

At 01:10 PM 1/17/2007, Roger Clarke wrote:
>... My impression is that a lot of developments have occurred 
>alongside rather than as part of the Dublin Code movement, e.g. DOI, DRM. ...

Dublin Core is widely used and I think it is a success as a standard.

Perhaps the most widespread use of Dublin Core is in the Creative 
Commons Licence <http://creativecommons.org/technology/metadata/implement>.

When you select a CC licence <http://creativecommons.org/license/> 
and describe your content, the Dublin Core metadata is encoded in RDF 
format. Most people using CC will not know what all the squiggly 
stuff is and just copy it into their web page as instructed, so they 
never see any mention of Dublin Core.

Dublin Core is also used in the:

* Australian Digital Theses Program 
http://www.tomw.net.au/technology/it/ecommerce/metadata.shtml#adt>,
* Australian Government Locator Service (AGLS) 
<http://www.tomw.net.au/technology/it/ecommerce/metadata.shtml#agls> and the
* Recordkeeping Metadata Standard for Commonwealth Agencies (RKMS) 
<http://www.tomw.net.au/technology/it/ecommerce/document_management.shtml#rmsca>.

How much these are actually uses would be an interesting area for 
research. The problem with metadata stadards is they look trivially 
simple, until you try to actually use them.

I have had three ANU students look at metadata for online museums. In 
the last project they used data from real Australian museum 
collections, including the museum with the photos which inspired the 
movie Ten Canoes 
<http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/2006/12/ten-canoes-from-samoa-to-arafura-swamp.html>. 
The metadata looks simple, until you try to fit the real world data into it.

A new student signed up yesterday and this time they will try to 
combine what is in the metadata fields predefined by museum experts 
with what is in the real world (at least the real world of the web). 
The idea is to cross reference the expert taxonomy with the 
folksonomy and represent it using the semantic web. The payoff will 
be if this can be linked to commercial services such as Amazon and 
eBay. A museum could then use this to sell products related to their 
collection, or to check to see if stolen artifacts are being sold on eBay.



Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150
Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd            ABN: 17 088 714 309
PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617                http://www.tomw.net.au/
Visiting Fellow, ANU      Blog: http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/atom.xml  

From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au  Wed Jan 17 13:46:23 2007
From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington)
Date: Thu Jan 18 09:31:18 2007
Subject: [LINK] ICT industry in Australia, moved to 21 March 2007
Message-ID: <20070117223107.A239A236BB@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com>

I wrote Fri, 12 Jan 2007 10:12:22 +1100:
>The ICT industry in Australia ... Sheryle Moon, Chief Executive 
>Officer (Australian Information Industry Association (AIIA)) ...  ANU ...

The talk is now on 21 March 2007 
<http://cs.anu.edu.au/seminars/seminars07/dept20070321>.

>ABSTRACT: The Australian Information Industry Association (AIIA) 
>leads the ICT industry in Australia, with almost 500 member 
>companies that generate combined annual revenues of more than $40 
>billion, employ 100,000 Australians and export more than $2 billion 
>in goods and services each year.
>
>This talk will discuss the strategic direction of the Australian ICT 
>industry and needed changes in public policy to accelerate business growth. ...




Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150
Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd            ABN: 17 088 714 309
PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617                http://www.tomw.net.au/
Visiting Fellow, ANU      Blog: http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/atom.xml  

From cas at taz.net.au  Thu Jan 18 09:33:19 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Thu Jan 18 09:33:20 2007
Subject: [LINK] Telstra propose biggest rollout in Australia's  history
In-Reply-To: <5ii0ro$27nno7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
References: <45ADF242.1000904@hunterlink.net.au>
	<5ii0ro$27itpf@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
	<p06240800c1d3c6f4b248@[192.168.0.2]>
	<5ii0ro$27nno7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <20070117223319.GI26390@taz.net.au>

On Thu, Jan 18, 2007 at 07:26:14AM +1100, Jan Whitaker wrote:
> At 11:31 PM 17/01/2007, Frank O'Connor wrote:
> >>Two words: corporate welfare.
> >
> >Mmmm ... I predicted Telstra would make a play for the lions share 
> >of what's in the trough 12 months back - even as they were saying 
> >that servicing the country was uneconomic.
> 
> Three words: uneconomic for whom?
> 
> It's no skin off the Sol's nose (or bankbook) if the funding comes 
> from the taxpayer. Gee, you'd think we still had publicly owned 
> telco! What is it with people here? The point of privatisation is to 
> let the investors make the CAPITAL investment (see, that's the way 
> CapitalISM is supposed to work - I learned that in ECO 101). 

whatever gave you that silly idea?

the point of capitalism is that the investors reap the profits. if they
can offload the expenses onto someone else, then so much the better.

and the point of privatisation is to offload any public infrastructure
that has any chance of making a profit into private hands - and give the
government a short-term windfall to plough back into corporate welfare
(and a bit of pork-barreling on the side - watch how much of the T3
proceeds gets spent getting Howard & Co re-elected this year).


craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From marghanita at ramin.com.au  Thu Jan 18 09:51:00 2007
From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz)
Date: Thu Jan 18 09:50:48 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701180903120.694@carus.anu.edu.au>
References: <C1D3CDB2.6A2%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>	<3CDD63D7-9F8D-409A-A57B-383EA83A21DD@itrundle.com>	<45ADAD45.3090202@iss.net.au>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0701180903120.694@carus.anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <45AEA854.9030505@ramin.com.au>

Just picking up on the comment about literacy ...there are a lot of
literate kids and adults without laptops and I suspect a few illiterate
ones who do own laptops.


> One Laptop Per Child - The debate continues for OLPCs in Pakistan
> 
> Will UAE possibly support Laptops for every child in Pakistan?
> 
> [Fouad Riaz Bajwa, FOSS Advocate, Lahore - Pakistan, 06-06-2007] 
> 
> OLPC has been long debated whether it will be shipped within its initially
> announced price of US$100 per laptop and will it be affordable by developing
> world countries where national budgets may reach the total cost of buying
> these laptops for every child. Currently the true cost of the OLPC possibly
> stands at US$208 and if it carries a 5-year long-term support plan, the
> price could jump beyond US$ 972 per laptop. OLPC is trying to identify
> various solutions to overcome this issue.
<http://lists.apdip.net/pipermail/iosn-general/2007-January/000496.html>

-- 
Marghanita da Cruz
http://www.ramin.com.au/
Telephone: 0414-869202
Ramin Communications Pty Ltd
ABN: 027-089-713-084




From cas at taz.net.au  Thu Jan 18 10:23:01 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Thu Jan 18 10:23:02 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <C1D3CDB2.6A2%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <200701170100.l0H10GwC025907@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
	<C1D3CDB2.6A2%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070117232301.GJ26390@taz.net.au>

On Wed, Jan 17, 2007 at 12:57:22PM +1100, Stewart Fist wrote:
> You'd give them transistor radios before you introduced laptops.
> You'd give them TVs before you gave them laptops.
> You'd give them bicycles before you gave them laptops.
> You'd give them electric power and water and food and roads before you gave
> them laptops.

yep. gotta agree with that.  it's ridiculous to give a laptop to someone
starving to death.

but then, it's also ridiculous to focus on the cute starving children
and completely ignore the fact that those cute children grow up to be
starving adults unable to feed themselves on the crappy marginal land
that's all that's left to them after the western-backed rich locals use
western money and guns to acquire all the viable farming land to grow
cheap cash crops for western commodities markets.

and if you were a BigPharma company, before you gave them any of useful
things you list, you'd give them out-of-date, banned, or otherwise
dangerous pharmaceuticals that they have to dispose of at great expense.
kills two birds with one stone - externalises the disposal expenses and
you can write it off on tax as a charitable donation.

foreign aid isn't always about charity or helping those who need help.
often it serves western interests (government and corporate) far more
than it serves the needs of people in the third world - in fact, quite
often it serves western corporate interests AGAINST the interests of the
locals.

craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From dlochrin at d2.net.au  Thu Jan 18 11:05:59 2007
From: dlochrin at d2.net.au (David Lochrin)
Date: Thu Jan 18 11:08:14 2007
Subject: [LINK] Telstra propose biggest rollout in Australia's  history
In-Reply-To: <20070117223319.GI26390@taz.net.au>
References: <45ADF242.1000904@hunterlink.net.au>
	<5ii0ro$27nno7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
	<20070117223319.GI26390@taz.net.au>
Message-ID: <200701181105.59240.dlochrin@d2.net.au>

On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 09:33, Craig Sanders wrote:
> the point of capitalism is that the investors reap the profits. 
> if they can offload the expenses onto someone else, 
> then so much the better. 

   Privatise the profits and socialise the losses!

> and the point of privatisation is to offload any public 
> infrastructure that has any chance of making a profit 
> into private hands - and give the government a short-term 
> windfall to plough back into corporate welfare (and a bit of 
> pork-barreling on the side - watch how much of the T3 
> proceeds gets spent getting Howard & Co re-elected 
> this year). 

   Another bit of corporate welfare is LJH's campaign for nuclear power.  Nuclear power in Australia will not contribute much to reducing greenhouse gases - even Dr. Switkowski thinks the most ambitious rollout of nuclear power (25 stations by 2050) will only result in an 18% reduction over business as usual.

   In the mean time, Britain, with a target of 60% reduction in greenhouse gases by 2050, is reducing its nuclear capacity from the current 20% to 4% by 2023 and 0% by 2035.

   Given LJH's announcement of his nuclear plans five minutes after seeing George Bush, it's probably safe to assume part of the plan is that Australia will become a repository for the world's waste in order to help the U.S. nuclear industry.  New Matilda ran a few articles about this if anyone's interested.

David
From cas at taz.net.au  Thu Jan 18 11:54:43 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Thu Jan 18 11:54:45 2007
Subject: [LINK] Telstra propose biggest rollout in Australia's  history
In-Reply-To: <200701181105.59240.dlochrin@d2.net.au>
References: <45ADF242.1000904@hunterlink.net.au>
	<5ii0ro$27nno7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
	<20070117223319.GI26390@taz.net.au>
	<200701181105.59240.dlochrin@d2.net.au>
Message-ID: <20070118005443.GK26390@taz.net.au>

On Thu, Jan 18, 2007 at 11:05:59AM +1100, David Lochrin wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 09:33, Craig Sanders wrote:
> > the point of capitalism is that the investors reap the profits. 
> > if they can offload the expenses onto someone else, 
> > then so much the better. 
> 
>    Privatise the profits and socialise the losses!

as ever.  it's the law of the land.

> > and the point of privatisation is to offload any public 
> > infrastructure that has any chance of making a profit 
> > into private hands - and give the government a short-term 
> > windfall to plough back into corporate welfare (and a bit of 
> > pork-barreling on the side - watch how much of the T3 
> > proceeds gets spent getting Howard & Co re-elected 
> > this year). 
> 
>    Another bit of corporate welfare is LJH's campaign for nuclear
>    power.  Nuclear power in Australia will not contribute much to
>    reducing greenhouse gases - even Dr. Switkowski thinks the most
>    ambitious rollout of nuclear power (25 stations by 2050) will only
>    result in an 18% reduction over business as usual.

i reckon it's just a huge red-herring. distract the greenies and
environmentalists into fighting the nuclear bogeyman (and hopefully
cause some infighting between those who think that GH-gases are a worse
danger than nuclear and those who don't*). with luck, the ensuing
"debate" will allow the government to sit on the sidelines and continue
to do nothing about coal and oil and the pollution they cause. which is
exactly what their masters in the coal industry want them to do.


the nuclear issue also brings the seriously loony "environmentalists"
out of the woodwork - the ones for whom their anti-nuclear stance is a
religious conviction rather than a rational evaluation of the evidence.
they're great for TV, sensational! and it's easy to paint ALL greenies
as seriously disturbed lunatics when you have such great examples
plastered all over the nightly news.  faith-based nutcases.



* personally, i'm a greenie and i'm in favour of nuclear power as PART
OF an alternative energy mix. but a) i wouldn't trust howard to choose
the best/safest technology or b) to properly regulate the (inevitably
american) corporations that would end up with the contracts, and c) i
wouldn't trust any american corporation to put safety ahead of profit.

so, while on a technical level i'm in favour of nuclear power (modern
reactor designs are *SAFE* - and the waste issue is trivial, even in
absolute terms but more so when compared to the waste from coal-fired
power plants**), on a practical real-world and political level, i just
don't trust the bastards.


** especially brown coal as used in victoria - spewing out megatonnes
of CO2 and more noxious pollutants, *including* uranium and thorium
particles.

>    Given LJH's announcement of his nuclear plans five minutes after
>    seeing George Bush, it's probably safe to assume part of the plan
>    is that Australia will become a repository for the world's waste
>    in order to help the U.S. nuclear industry.  New Matilda ran a few
>    articles about this if anyone's interested.

frankly, a nuclear waste dump in the middle of nowhere in australia
actually makes sense. nuclear power (and thus nuclear waste) is a
fact of life, it's gotta go somewhere, and better for it to be in an
isolated location in a geologically (and politically!) stable region.
and australia is actually the original source for much of the uranium
anyway.

Maralinga, for example, would make a great location.  it's already
contaminated and off-limits to people.


craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From adrian at creative.net.au  Thu Jan 18 12:11:04 2007
From: adrian at creative.net.au (Adrian Chadd)
Date: Thu Jan 18 12:06:28 2007
Subject: [LINK] Telstra propose biggest rollout in Australia's  history
In-Reply-To: <200701181105.59240.dlochrin@d2.net.au>
References: <45ADF242.1000904@hunterlink.net.au>
	<5ii0ro$27nno7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
	<20070117223319.GI26390@taz.net.au>
	<200701181105.59240.dlochrin@d2.net.au>
Message-ID: <20070118011104.GA18720@skywalker.creative.net.au>

On Thu, Jan 18, 2007, David Lochrin wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 09:33, Craig Sanders wrote:
> > the point of capitalism is that the investors reap the profits. 
> > if they can offload the expenses onto someone else, 
> > then so much the better. 
> 
>    Privatise the profits and socialise the losses!
> 
> > and the point of privatisation is to offload any public 
> > infrastructure that has any chance of making a profit 
> > into private hands - and give the government a short-term 
> > windfall to plough back into corporate welfare (and a bit of 
> > pork-barreling on the side - watch how much of the T3 
> > proceeds gets spent getting Howard & Co re-elected 
> > this year). 
> 
>    Another bit of corporate welfare is LJH's campaign for nuclear power.  Nuclear power in Australia will not contribute much to reducing greenhouse gases - even Dr. Switkowski thinks the most ambitious rollout of nuclear power (25 stations by 2050) will only result in an 18% reduction over business as usual.
> 
>    In the mean time, Britain, with a target of 60% reduction in greenhouse gases by 2050, is reducing its nuclear capacity from the current 20% to 4% by 2023 and 0% by 2035.
> 

References please? Correlation vs causation and all that..



Adrian

From linda at databasics.com.au  Thu Jan 18 13:10:45 2007
From: linda at databasics.com.au (Linda Rouse)
Date: Thu Jan 18 13:11:02 2007
Subject: [LINK] RFI: Dublin Core 10 Years On
In-Reply-To: <p06240805c1d3321d639e@[192.168.123.167]>
References: <p06240805c1d3321d639e@[192.168.123.167]>
Message-ID: <p06230908c1d484d4fe74@[192.168.0.64]>

Hi Roger

>Someone wrote to me:
>>I am a [librarianship] researcher with the State of California. 
>>During a recent project I stumbled across your 1997 review of the 
>>hazards posed by the simplicity of the Dublin Core.  For my own 
>>information only, I was wondering if your thoughts from 1997, hold 
>>true 10 years later 2007 or if you have altered your opinion.
>
>I've not looked at the state of play in quite some years.
>
>I'd much appreciate any reactions, and pointers to any useful analyses.

FWIW, I presented a brief paper (20 min overview)  for the DAMAP 06 
Conference back in August last year that has references to current 
thinking re Dublin Core and its use for rich media in digital asset 
management..
There is a pdf of the Powerpoint pres accessible online at: 
http://www.databasics.com.au/docs/metapres_hires.pdf

>My impression is that a lot of developments have occurred alongside 
>rather than as part of the Dublin Code movement, e.g. DOI, DRM.

Yes - there are a number of related standards now

>The organisation is still there:  http://dublincore.org/about/
>
>Of course, metadata-based search has been held back by the 
>ease-of-use and surprisingly decent quality (at least for 
>non-professional searchers) of brute-force full-text search-engines, 
>in particular Google.
>
>Has auto-generation of metadata arrived?

Auto extraction of metadata from ingested assets is certainly a major 
component of high level DAM systems though unique fields like Author 
Title Subject Decription still needs to be added manually to the 
document by the creator.

>Are there convenient mechanisms to support authors to quickly 
>generate metadata for their documents just before they release them?
<SNIP>
Some of the better CMS and DAM systems have prefillers for metadata 
and templates for on-the-fly metadata creation with say, a dropdown 
to select a specific subject etc.

Hope this is helpful.
regards
Linda

-- 
=================
Linda Rouse, Information Manager
DataBasics Pty Limited
Phone 1300 886 238 (bus.) Mob: 0412 40 7778
Email linda@databasics.com.au
Web http://www.databasics.com.au
From dlochrin at d2.net.au  Thu Jan 18 13:34:24 2007
From: dlochrin at d2.net.au (David Lochrin)
Date: Thu Jan 18 13:36:46 2007
Subject: [LINK] Telstra propose biggest rollout in Australia's  history
In-Reply-To: <20070118011104.GA18720@skywalker.creative.net.au>
References: <45ADF242.1000904@hunterlink.net.au>
	<200701181105.59240.dlochrin@d2.net.au>
	<20070118011104.GA18720@skywalker.creative.net.au>
Message-ID: <200701181334.24756.dlochrin@d2.net.au>

On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 12:11, Adrian Chadd wrote:
> References please? Correlation vs causation and all that..

>>    Another bit of corporate welfare is LJH's campaign for nuclear power.  Nuclear power in Australia will not contribute much to reducing greenhouse gases - even Dr. Switkowski thinks the most ambitious rollout of nuclear power (25 stations by 2050) will only result in an 18% reduction over business as usual.

   See, for example, Dr. Switkowski's speech to the National Press Club published on the Dept. of Prime Minister & Cabinet website at http://www.dpmc.gov.au/umpner/reports.cfm

/QUOTE
Our panel considered one possible future scenario for Australia which saw a fast deployment of nuclear reactors beginning in 2020 and leading to a national network of 25 nuclear reactors by 2050.

At that point, about a third of Australia?s electricity would be nuclear-sourced, and greenhouse gas emissions would be 18% lower than business-as-usual.
/UNQUOTE

   I think this was the most aggressive scenario, and others showed lesser savings in greenhouse emissions, down to 8%.

>> In the mean time, Britain, with a target of 60% reduction in greenhouse gases by 2050, is reducing its nuclear capacity from the current 20% to 4% by 2023 and 0% by 2035.

   See an item from Reuters quoted in toto at http://www.planetark.com.au/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/39669/story.htm

/QUOTE
Britain to Close Two Oldest Nuclear Power Stations

UK: January 2, 2007

LONDON - Britain will on Sunday turn off its two oldest nuclear power plants as part of a process that will retire all but one of the country's ageing nuclear fleet within 16 years.

The large Magnox Sizewell A and Dungeness A reactors respectively on England's east and south coast have generated electricity for the past 40 years but have now reached the end of their extended design life.

"Combined we produce 1.2 percent of the nation's electricity, but we have been assured by the National Grid that even on New Year's Eve no one's televisions or lights will flicker when we switch off," a spokesman told Reuters on Friday.

Nuclear power supplies some 20 percent of Britain's electricity, but that will have slumped to just four percent when the Torness station closes in 2023 leaving just Sizewell B operating until it too closes in 2035.
[...]
/UNQUOTE

   As to Britain's 2050 targets, I've forgotten where I found this information but it should be easy to check.  The figures for several western European countries were as follows:

-???????United Kingdom: 60% by 2050;
-???????Netherlands: 30% by 2020 and 80% by 2050;
-???????France: 75% by 2050;
-???????Germany: 40% by 2020;
-???????Sweden: 60% by 2050.

> References please? Correlation vs causation and all that..

   I'm not sure what you're getting at there.  I wasn't trying to show that not using nuclear power led to high greenhouse-reduction targets, merely that high targets are possible without nuclear power.

David

From brd at iimetro.com.au  Thu Jan 18 14:54:20 2007
From: brd at iimetro.com.au (brd@iimetro.com.au)
Date: Thu Jan 18 14:54:30 2007
Subject: [LINK] Who won the USA 2004 election?
Message-ID: <20070118125420.xtov83q0iyo0gk88@webmail.iimetro.com.au>

<brd>
For those interested in elections and the murky issue of electronic voting.
..

This also touches on my on-going Link whinge:
     IT systems should always be suspect -- brd.

</brd>

Who won?
http://books.slashdot.org/books/07/01/17/158227.shtml
Posted by samzenpus on Wednesday January 17, @03:15PM
from the start-the-political-machines dept.
doom writes

"I think they call them "exit polls" because people bolt for the exits when
 you
mention them, but I'm still fascinated by the subject myself, and this book
 is
one of the reasons why. In Was the 2004 Presidential Election Stolen?, the
central focus is, of course, on the infamous exit-poll discrepancies of the
2004 US Presidential election; but the authors also put it into context: th
ey
discuss the 2000 election, the irregularities in Ohio in 2004, the electron
ic
voting machines issues, and the media's strange reluctance to report on any
 of
these problems. Further, in the chapter "How did America really vote?", the
y
compare the indications of the raw exit-poll data to other available pollin
g
data. Throughout, Freeman and Bleifuss do an excellent job of presenting
arguments based on statistical analysis in a clear, concise way."

The heart of the book in my opinion, is Chapter 5, "The inauguration eve
exit-poll report": The Edison and Mitofsky firms that conducted the NEP exi
t
polls later released a report trying to explain how they could have gotten 
it
so far wrong. Freeman and Bleifuss, of course, take issue with the presumpt
ion
that the discrepancies must be "errors", and argue in a different direction
.
This section makes an exciting read (in a nerdy sort of way) it's an impres
sive
piece of statistical judo: Freeman and Bleifuss take on Edison/Mitofsky wit
h
their own data, and totally shred their conclusions. The authors show: That
 the
exit-poll discrepancies had a statistically significant correlation with th
e use
of electronic voting machines, with races in battleground states, and in al
most
all cases favored the Republicans. The "Reluctant Bush Respondant" theory l
ooks
extremely unlikely: response rates actually look slightly better in Bush
strongholds than in Kerry strongholds; and while media skepticism remains
strong among conservatives, it has been on the rise among Democrats, and ye
t
the data shows no shift in relative avoidance of pollsters. They also deal 
with
the various other excuses that were floated shortly after the election: The
discrepancies can't be shrugged off with an "exit polls are not reliable" 
?
theory shows that they should be better than any other survey data, and his
tory
shows that they always have been pretty reliable. There was no upswing of
support for Bush throughout election day ? that impression was entirely a
n
artifact of the media "correcting" the exit-poll figures to match the offic
ial
results. One of the book's authors, Steven Freeman, was one of the first to
examine the exit-poll discrepancies, and as a professor at University of
Pennsylvania with a background in survey design, he was well equipped to be
gin
delving into the peculiarities he had noticed.

Overall, this is an excellent book for people interested in evaluating the 
data;
with lots of graphs that make it easy to do informal estimates of the stren
gth
of their conclusions (just eye-balling the scatter, the correlations they p
oint
to look real, albeit a little loose, as you might expect). There's also an
appendix with a very clear exposition of the the concept of statistical
significance, and how it applies to this polling data. There are of course,
limits to what one can conclude just from the exit-poll discrepancies: "We
reiterate that this does not prove the official vote count was fraudulent. 
What
it does say is that the discrepancy between the official count and the exit
polls can't be just a statistical fluke, but commands some kind of systemat
ic
explanation: Either the exit poll was deeply flawed or else the vote count 
was
corrupted. "

This is a remarkably restrained book: unlike many authors addressing this
controversial subject, Freeman and Bleifuss have resisted the temptation to
rant or speculate or even to editorialize very much. Freeman claims that he
 is
not a political person (and adds "I despise the Democrats"); possibly this 
has
helped him to maintain his neutrality and focus on the facts of the case.

Personally, I found this book to be something of a revelation: in the confu
sion
immediately after the 2004 election, I had the impression that the people w
ho
wanted to believe that it was legitimate at least had some wiggle room. The
re
was some disagreement about the meaning of the exit polls: there was that s
tudy
at Berkeley that found significant problems, but then the MIT study chimed 
in
saying there wasn't, so who do you believe? The thing is, the MIT guys late
r
admitted that they got it wrong: they used the "corrected" data, not the
originally reported exit poll results. The media never covered that
development, and I missed it myself...

On the subject of electronic voting machines, They include a chapter discus
sing
electronic voting in general which covers ground that is by now familiar wi
th
most readers here: the strange case of Wally O'Dell and Diebold; and also t
he
lesser known problems with ES&S. Have you heard this one? "In 1992, Hagel, 
then
an investment banker and president of the holding company McCarthy & Co., b
ecame
chairman of American Information Systems, which was to become ES&S in 1999.
[...] In the 1996 elections, Hagel launched his political career with two
stunning upsets. He won a primary victory in Nebraska [...] despite the fac
t
that he was not well known. Then, in the general election, Hagel was electe
d to
the Senate in what Business Week described as 'an unexpected 1996 landslide
victory over Ben Nelson, Nebraska's popular Democratic governor.'"

My experience is that a lot of people need to hear this point: "The voting
machine company Datamark, which became American Information Systems and is 
now
known as ES&S, was founded in 1980 by two brothers, Bob and Todd Urosevich.
Today, Todd is a vice president at ES&S and Bob is CEO of Diebold Election
Systems."

It's impossible to see how you can come away from this situation without se
eing
that we badly need reform of the electoral system: even if you don't believ
e
the 2004 election was "stolen", how do you know the next one isn't going to
 be?
A paper trail that can actually be recounted would be a nice start, eh? But
 only
a start. As the author's point out: "We devoted a chapter to the ills of
electronic voting, but a critical lesson of the 2004 election is that not o
nly
DREs, but all kinds of voting machine systems are suspect. Edison/Mitofsky 
data
showed that while hand counted ballots accurately reflected exit-poll surve
y
results, counts from all the major categories of voting machines did not."

In one short passage, the authors list a few "grounds for hope", but follow
ing
up on these points is not encouraging: The Diebold-injunction law suit in
California brought by VoterAction has since been denied and one attempt at 
a
paper trail amendment, HR 550 has stalled out.

If you're looking for an answer to the question posed by the book's title, 
the
authors conclude: "So how did America really vote? Every independent measur
e
points to a Kerry victory of about 5 percentage points in the popular vote
nationwide, a swing of 8 to 10 million votes from the official count."

Of the many and various potentially depressing books out there about the st
ate
of the United States, I recommend this one highly: it addresses a critical 
set
of issues that everything else depends on.

-- 
Regards
brd

Bernard Robertson-Dunn
Sydney Australia
brd@iimetro.com.au



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From rick at praxis.com.au  Thu Jan 18 16:48:29 2007
From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Thu Jan 18 16:48:41 2007
Subject: [LINK] Who won the USA 2004 election?
In-Reply-To: <20070118125420.xtov83q0iyo0gk88@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
References: <20070118125420.xtov83q0iyo0gk88@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
Message-ID: <45AF0A2D.9040209@praxis.com.au>

brd@iimetro.com.au wrote:

> <brd>
> For those interested in elections and the murky issue of electronic voting.
> ..
> 
> This also touches on my on-going Link whinge:
>      IT systems should always be suspect -- brd.
> 
> </brd>
> 
> Who won?
> http://books.slashdot.org/books/07/01/17/158227.shtml
> Posted by samzenpus on Wednesday January 17, @03:15PM
> from the start-the-political-machines dept.
> doom writes
[SNIP]

> If you're looking for an answer to the question posed by the book's title, 
> the
> authors conclude: "So how did America really vote? Every independent measur
> e
> points to a Kerry victory of about 5 percentage points in the popular vote
> nationwide, a swing of 8 to 10 million votes from the official count."
> 
> Of the many and various potentially depressing books out there about the st
> ate
> of the United States, I recommend this one highly: it addresses a critical 
> set
> of issues that everything else depends on.

It is sobering to think that if e-voting machines were not used in the
2004 elections, more than 100,000 Iraqis and over 2000 (or is it 3000?)
Americans would be alive today.

One point not raised in the review that may be in the book is that in certain
polling districts, submitted e-ballots numbered two to three times the TOTAL
NUMBER OF REGISTERED VOTERS. Republican ballots ;)

Without the political will and an astute electorate, democracy in the
USA will continue to slide into white supremacist capito-fascism.

cheers
rickw




-- 
_________________________________
Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services

Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being
governed by those who are dumber.
     -- Plato
From glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au  Thu Jan 18 17:58:05 2007
From: glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au (Glen Turner)
Date: Thu Jan 18 17:58:20 2007
Subject: [LINK] Who won the USA 2004 election?
In-Reply-To: <45AF0A2D.9040209@praxis.com.au>
References: <20070118125420.xtov83q0iyo0gk88@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
	<45AF0A2D.9040209@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <45AF1A7D.8040008@aarnet.edu.au>

Rick Welykochy wrote:

> It is sobering to think that if e-voting machines were not used in the
> 2004 elections, more than 100,000 Iraqis and over 2000 (or is it 3000?)
> Americans would be alive today.

That's the problem with alternative histories.  Maybe President
Gore went to war with China and the whole of Asia and North
America is radioactive slag pile.
From glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au  Thu Jan 18 18:45:19 2007
From: glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au (Glen Turner)
Date: Thu Jan 18 18:45:38 2007
Subject: [LINK] Telstra propose biggest rollout in Australia's  history
In-Reply-To: <20070118005443.GK26390@taz.net.au>
References: <45ADF242.1000904@hunterlink.net.au>	<5ii0ro$27nno7@ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>	<20070117223319.GI26390@taz.net.au>	<200701181105.59240.dlochrin@d2.net.au>
	<20070118005443.GK26390@taz.net.au>
Message-ID: <45AF258F.80203@aarnet.edu.au>

Craig Sanders wrote:

> so, while on a technical level i'm in favour of nuclear power (modern
> reactor designs are *SAFE*

All paper designs are safe.

The reactor designs most recently built -- as opposed to reactors designs
most recently talked about -- are mostly Russian designs, and that thought
doesn't fill me with confidence.


<aside>
This paper
  <http://www.nea.fr/html/ndd/reports/2002/nea3969.html>
summarises the technologies in innovative reactors. These are all
small reactors (<100MW) and thus inefficient.  The Switkowski report
seems to think they can be scaled up without uncovering limitations
in the design which may incur large engineering costs.  Hmmm.

Also the IEA report repeatedly makes the point that major efficiencies
in modern reactors are from improving the steam --> electricity process.
But that can't count in any nuclear/coal comparison since these
same efficiencies are available to both technologies.

I'm only half way through a close reading of the Switkowski report
and it's full of this sort of woolly thinking and rosy scenarios.
The most astonishing of all being the costing of carbon emissions
for coal but not the costing of nuclear waste for nuclear. And
the cost of nuclear plants is held artificially low by the use
of modular designs. This implies that if the first plant has
aspects that are poorly done (a certainty of any 'innovative design')
this won't be fixed in subsequent plants.

The other thing that really annoys me is the assumption that
the transmission system will remain the same.  That penalises
photovoltaic solar, which does not require a transmission
system and thus should include those savings in a comparison.

Also, electrical demand is simply projected as-is in the report.
Which seems a bit odd, given that the government's first response
to a shortage of water has been to start to manage demand.
</aside>


> Maralinga, for example, would make a great location.  it's already
> contaminated and off-limits to people.

So who would work there? Given that it's so contaminated and all.
From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Thu Jan 18 18:59:11 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Thu Jan 18 19:01:43 2007
Subject: [LINK] Telstra propose biggest rollout in Australia's
In-Reply-To: <200701172252.l0HMq8h5024360@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <C1D573FF.6AE%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>


> 
> But wasn't there a fateful
> 3 billion dollar rollout of FTTN services that was scotched
> when Johnny and Sol couldn't stay in the same room with each other
> last year?!   What is going on here?


There is no way the FTTH service has been scotched. It has only been
delayed.  Telstra can stall as long as it likes, knowing full well that this
puts some pressure on Liberal Coalitions and Labor Oppositions alike to not
interfere.  Since Telstra is a monopoly by virtue of owning the street
ducting, it can afford to wait.  There isn't a wireless protocol that can
challenge it.

The wait will allow Sol to raise the dividend on Telstra's shares, thus
shoring up his reputation.  This will keep Johnny happy going into an
election, so the Liberals won't be pushing too much.  They will let Graham
Samuels at the ACCC do all the huffing and puffing, knowing that he doesn't
have the legal clout to do anything real.

Delays of this kind don't usually cost the country much anyway, unless the
efficiencies of the new technology makes export-earning businesses more
profitable.  And this is doubtful with broadband -- in fact, it will
probably increase our adverse balance of payments.

If Telstra waits a few years more, the FTTH implementation costs will be
lower, and the standards more stable.

(Broadband isn't likely to be a policy that decides votes anyway.)


-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458


From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au  Fri Jan 19 09:00:10 2007
From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington)
Date: Fri Jan 19 09:33:12 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <C1D259E3.692%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <200701150953.l0F9pS4t021272@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
	<C1D259E3.692%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070118223244.54A5526437@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com>

At 10:30 AM 1/16/2007, Stewart Fist wrote:
>I wonder how many metres of water-pipe that $100 would buy ...

About 21 m (not including delivery): 
<http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000LNJXFE/qid=1168990015/ref=sr_1_23>.

At 12:40 PM 1/16/2007, Adam Todd wrote:
>Bit o' pipe and a few pumps, some solar stations and presto. ...

Solar panels are not cheap 
<http://astore.amazon.com/smart-apartment-20/?node=9>, nor are water 
pumps <http://astore.amazon.com/smart-apartment-20/?node=13>. Also 
they need some training to install and operate. One way to provide 
that expertise would be via on-line education, but I am still not 
sure a $100 laptop for each child is the way to do it.

At 06:03 PM 1/17/2007, Stewart Fist wrote (was: "Re: Link Digest, Vol 
170, Issue 38"):
>Brendan writes:
>
> > So you'd rather the government spent the money on weapons instead
> > of laptops? ...

It should be kept in mind that some of the OLPC PCs may be used for 
warfare. They are semi-rugged and have daylight readable screens and 
so are similar to hand held military terminals.

>The fact is that illiterate people can understand audio and video - 
>but surfing the net is generally beyond their capabilities.   ...

The Indian developed Simputer PDA 
<http://www.simputer.org/simputer/history/> was designed for 
illiterate people, with a touch screen and voice output. This is an 
open source hardware and software project with some clever features.

My suggestion was to combine the design skills which went into the 
Simputer with the marketing hype of the OLPC 
<http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/2005/11/is-100-laptop-windup.html>. One 
way is to build a Simputer with a larger screen, bigger batteries, a 
keyboard and wireless interface.

Indian company Encore, one of the makers of the Simputer, also offer 
the Mobilis tablet computer 
<http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS8377345968.html> and SATHI military 
hand held terminal <http://www.ncoretech.com/sathi/index.html>.



Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150
Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd            ABN: 17 088 714 309
PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617                http://www.tomw.net.au/
Visiting Fellow, ANU      Blog: http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/atom.xml  

From marghanita at ramin.com.au  Fri Jan 19 09:45:15 2007
From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz)
Date: Fri Jan 19 09:44:54 2007
Subject: Straw Poll was Re: [LINK] Straw Pole of Good Bad and ugly online
	government services
In-Reply-To: <66E6CCBD-D84A-4593-AA7F-EDA2B4679A74@itrundle.com>
References: <45AC5C5A.5000500@ramin.com.au>
	<E04DB3A5-C09E-423D-BC23-5F59358CE82E@squiz.net>
	<66E6CCBD-D84A-4593-AA7F-EDA2B4679A74@itrundle.com>
Message-ID: <45AFF87B.8010902@ramin.com.au>

Ivan Trundle wrote:
<snip>
> Still trying to visualise a straw pole... (How long is it? Can it be  
> used in place of tomato steaks?)
<snip>
OK, wrong word see
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_poll>

Some snippets from yesterday's
  >> Seventh Canberra WSG meeting
<http://mailman.anu.edu.au/pipermail/link/2007-January/071356.html>

navy.gov.au redevelopment Talk:
*sexy looking websites with people not boats is what the client is 
looking for

Accessibility Talk:
*most commonly misspelt word on Government websites is "Australia"
*developing and having useful standards adopted is difficult.

Hitwise Talk:
*Australia has over 5000 government websites
UK around 1500 and the US around 3000!

*Most popular Aust government site is Bureau of Meteorology,

*Wikipedia is outdoing the other encyclopedia's...

*And no surprise for anyone that has looked at their own website stats...
Google is by far the most popular website

Marghanita
-- 
Marghanita da Cruz
http://www.ramin.com.au/
Telephone: 0414-869202
Ramin Communications Pty Ltd
ABN: 027-089-713-084






From link at todd.inoz.com  Fri Jan 19 09:58:53 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Fri Jan 19 09:59:25 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <20070118223244.54A5526437@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com>
References: <200701150953.l0F9pS4t021272@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
	<C1D259E3.692%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<20070118223244.54A5526437@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070119095146.031becd0@wheresmymailserver.com>

At 09:00 AM 19/01/2007, Tom Worthington wrote:
>At 10:30 AM 1/16/2007, Stewart Fist wrote:
>>I wonder how many metres of water-pipe that $100 would buy ...
>
>About 21 m (not including delivery): 
><http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000LNJXFE/qid=1168990015/ref=sr_1_23>.

OK and how many kids are going to get these laptops?  1,000,000 at least by 
the sounds of it .

So legs be pragmatic for a moment.

21,000,000 meters of pipe, verse 1,000,000 laptops that the kids probably 
can't use all the time because they don't have power "at home" in the 
bark/mud/poo hut.

Wouldn't it be better to have 20 laptops at the school house, with a solar 
array nearby feeding power to recharge the laptop batteries and running the 
pump to pump fresh, clean, drinkable water?

Then the kids get a double benefit!  And they can probably carry a few 
litres of FREE water home with them too!

>At 12:40 PM 1/16/2007, Adam Todd wrote:
>>Bit o' pipe and a few pumps, some solar stations and presto. ...
>
>Solar panels are not cheap 
><http://astore.amazon.com/smart-apartment-20/?node=9>, nor are water pumps 
><http://astore.amazon.com/smart-apartment-20/?node=13>. Also they need 
>some training to install and operate. One way to provide that expertise 
>would be via on-line education, but I am still not sure a $100 laptop for 
>each child is the way to do it.

I have four children, they share a computer.  Well actually two of them 
do.  The youngest two aren't allowed yet :)

But again, $800 retail price (that does not include the 50% Fed Government 
rebate that pushed solar products up by 100% when it was introduced, you 
know like Health Insurance rebates that upped the price of health insurance 
by 33%!) and you have a good solar panel.

The power from that with some deep cycle batteries would give a good few 
years of power to the locals.  That can be used to charge the batteries on 
the limited number, but still sharable laptops, provide power for sat links 
for Internet Access, and probably provide power for a local area network, 
maybe a wireless one?  Not to mention pump the water!


>At 06:03 PM 1/17/2007, Stewart Fist wrote (was: "Re: Link Digest, Vol 170, 
>Issue 38"):
>>Brendan writes:
>>
>> > So you'd rather the government spent the money on weapons instead
>> > of laptops? ...
>
>It should be kept in mind that some of the OLPC PCs may be used for 
>warfare. They are semi-rugged and have daylight readable screens and so 
>are similar to hand held military terminals.

Don't Governments spend money on weapons regardless of laptops :)

Anyway aren't Military personnel buying their own equipment?  Two Way 
Radios, watches, GPS, clothing, bags etc?  The Military apparently doesn't 
stock really good stuff or have stock, so the Boys and Girls have to get 
their own.

(Reported on Link twice in the last few years.)

>My suggestion was to combine the design skills which went into the 
>Simputer with the marketing hype of the OLPC 
><http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/2005/11/is-100-laptop-windup.html>. One way 
>is to build a Simputer with a larger screen, bigger batteries, a keyboard 
>and wireless interface.

Still gotta charge those batteries!  Hard to do in the middle of the Sudan 
Desert!


From ivan at itrundle.com  Fri Jan 19 10:12:43 2007
From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle)
Date: Fri Jan 19 10:13:00 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <20070118223244.54A5526437@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com>
References: <200701150953.l0F9pS4t021272@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
	<C1D259E3.692%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<20070118223244.54A5526437@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <F0B32926-D5E8-4462-85CA-9B5316D9AA55@itrundle.com>


On 19/01/2007, at 9:00 AM, Tom Worthington wrote:

> At 10:30 AM 1/16/2007, Stewart Fist wrote:
>> I wonder how many metres of water-pipe that $100 would buy ...
>
> About 21 m (not including delivery): <http://www.amazon.com/dp/ 
> B000LNJXFE/qid=1168990015/ref=sr_1_23>.
>
> At 12:40 PM 1/16/2007, Adam Todd wrote:
>> Bit o' pipe and a few pumps, some solar stations and presto. ...
>
> Solar panels are not cheap <http://astore.amazon.com/smart- 
> apartment-20/?node=9>, nor are water pumps <http:// 
> astore.amazon.com/smart-apartment-20/?node=13>. Also they need some  
> training to install and operate. One way to provide that expertise  
> would be via on-line education, but I am still not sure a $100  
> laptop for each child is the way to do it.

Or ditch the solar panels and technology altogether. Thousands of  
VLOM (Village Level Operation Management and Maintenance) handpumps  
have been installed in developing countries since the start of UN's  
Decade of Water for Life (2005-2015). Unfortunately, even these  
proved to be hard to maintain after the first UN's Decade of Water  
(1981-1990), where it is estimated that more than a billion people  
gained access to safe drinking water.

Incidentally, World Water Day is 22 March.
http://www.unwater.org/wwd07/flashindex.html

iT


--
Ivan Trundle
http://itrundle.com ivan@itrundle.com
ph: +61 (0)418 244 259 fx: +61 (0)2 6286 8742
skype: callto://ivanovitchk


From ivan at itrundle.com  Fri Jan 19 10:28:20 2007
From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle)
Date: Fri Jan 19 10:28:41 2007
Subject: Straw Poll was Re: [LINK] Straw Pole of Good Bad and ugly online
	government services
In-Reply-To: <45AFF87B.8010902@ramin.com.au>
References: <45AC5C5A.5000500@ramin.com.au>
	<E04DB3A5-C09E-423D-BC23-5F59358CE82E@squiz.net>
	<66E6CCBD-D84A-4593-AA7F-EDA2B4679A74@itrundle.com>
	<45AFF87B.8010902@ramin.com.au>
Message-ID: <3A135C8E-8B7F-43CD-8EA7-42FCE709FB40@itrundle.com>


On 19/01/2007, at 9:45 AM, Marghanita da Cruz wrote:

> Ivan Trundle wrote:
> <snip>
>> Still trying to visualise a straw pole... (How long is it? Can it  
>> be  used in place of tomato steaks?)
> <snip>
> OK, wrong word see
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_poll>

No serious dig intended - I just saw the humour in it, and was  
looking at my hail-damaged vegetable garden as I was typing...

> Some snippets from yesterday's
>  >> Seventh Canberra WSG meeting
> <http://mailman.anu.edu.au/pipermail/link/2007-January/071356.html>
>
> navy.gov.au redevelopment Talk:
> *sexy looking websites with people not boats is what the client is  
> looking for

Sounds like a classic example of the mandarins in charge not knowing  
*why* people visit websites.

Projecting an image of people ('Hello sailor!' was the immediate  
reaction in this office from my colleagues on this news) is all well  
and good, but doesn't differentiate the product, or the reasons for  
visitors wanting to go to the site.

It's as if website homepages (and to a lesser degree, the images in  
the rest of the site) are seen as book covers - all vying for  
attention in the bookstore. It's simply not the main reason for  
someone to visit a website. In print, pictures might be worth 1000  
words - but on the web, 100 digital words are worth as much.

> <snip>
> Hitwise Talk:
> *Australia has over 5000 government websites
> UK around 1500 and the US around 3000!

And after the UK's drive to reduce their sites to 500, it makes  
Australia look incredibly bloated in comparison. But I'd be more  
inclined to count the pages, and the hits, and possibly even seeing  
how much useful content there is first. Each country has different  
levels of accountability and transparency, so comparing one with the  
other must be treated with some skepticism.

iT

From marghanita at ramin.com.au  Fri Jan 19 10:57:49 2007
From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz)
Date: Fri Jan 19 10:57:45 2007
Subject: Straw Poll was Re: [LINK] Straw Pole of Good Bad and ugly online
	government services
In-Reply-To: <3A135C8E-8B7F-43CD-8EA7-42FCE709FB40@itrundle.com>
References: <45AC5C5A.5000500@ramin.com.au>
	<E04DB3A5-C09E-423D-BC23-5F59358CE82E@squiz.net>
	<66E6CCBD-D84A-4593-AA7F-EDA2B4679A74@itrundle.com>
	<45AFF87B.8010902@ramin.com.au>
	<3A135C8E-8B7F-43CD-8EA7-42FCE709FB40@itrundle.com>
Message-ID: <45B0097D.5080404@ramin.com.au>

Ivan Trundle wrote:
> 
> On 19/01/2007, at 9:45 AM, Marghanita da Cruz wrote:
> 
>> Ivan Trundle wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>> Still trying to visualise a straw pole... (How long is it? Can it  
>>> be  used in place of tomato steaks?)
>>
>> <snip>
>> OK, wrong word see
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_poll>

none taken, just a little embarrassment.

> 
> 
> No serious dig intended - I just saw the humour in it, and was  looking 
> at my hail-damaged vegetable garden as I was typing...
> 
>> Some snippets from yesterday's
>>  >> Seventh Canberra WSG meeting
>> <http://mailman.anu.edu.au/pipermail/link/2007-January/071356.html>
>>
>> navy.gov.au redevelopment Talk:
>> *sexy looking websites with people not boats is what the client is  
>> looking for
> 
> 
> Sounds like a classic example of the mandarins in charge not knowing  
> *why* people visit websites.
> 
> Projecting an image of people ('Hello sailor!' was the immediate  
> reaction in this office from my colleagues on this news) is all well  
> and good, but doesn't differentiate the product, or the reasons for  
> visitors wanting to go to the site.
> 
> It's as if website homepages (and to a lesser degree, the images in  the 
> rest of the site) are seen as book covers - all vying for  attention in 
> the bookstore. It's simply not the main reason for  someone to visit a 
> website. In print, pictures might be worth 1000  words - but on the web, 
> 100 digital words are worth as much.
> 
>> <snip>
>> Hitwise Talk:
>> *Australia has over 5000 government websites
>> UK around 1500 and the US around 3000!
> 
> 
> And after the UK's drive to reduce their sites to 500, it makes  
> Australia look incredibly bloated in comparison. But I'd be more  
> inclined to count the pages, and the hits, and possibly even seeing  how 
> much useful content there is first. Each country has different  levels 
> of accountability and transparency, so comparing one with the  other 
> must be treated with some skepticism.
> 

It seems useful KPIs for Websites are still needed.

Marghanita
-- 
Marghanita da Cruz
http://www.ramin.com.au/
Telephone: 0414-869202
Ramin Communications Pty Ltd
ABN: 027-089-713-084



From link at todd.inoz.com  Fri Jan 19 11:08:32 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Fri Jan 19 11:09:06 2007
Subject: Straw Poll was Re: [LINK] Straw Pole of Good Bad and ugly
	online government services
In-Reply-To: <45AFF87B.8010902@ramin.com.au>
References: <45AC5C5A.5000500@ramin.com.au>
	<E04DB3A5-C09E-423D-BC23-5F59358CE82E@squiz.net>
	<66E6CCBD-D84A-4593-AA7F-EDA2B4679A74@itrundle.com>
	<45AFF87B.8010902@ramin.com.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070119105524.03406c30@wheresmymailserver.com>

At 09:45 AM 19/01/2007, Marghanita da Cruz wrote:
navy.gov.au redevelopment Talk:
>*sexy looking websites with people not boats is what the client is looking for

I thought the Federal Government was trying to censor sex on the Internet 
in Australia?  Now they want sexy people on the Navy web site?  Sheesh!

>Accessibility Talk:
>*most commonly misspelt word on Government websites is "Australia"

I think this is a Freudian Slap!

Lets face it, who wants to be known as from a Prison Colony!  I'll bet most 
spell it as Austria!

>Hitwise Talk:
>*Australia has over 5000 government websites
>UK around 1500 and the US around 3000!

That's because every Public Servant has to have a web site for their 
internal sub department.  (Linkers excused!)

I'll bet you can find more than 5000 :)

>*Most popular Aust government site is Bureau of Meteorology,

No surprise.  It's the one with the most useful things on it!  The Rain 
Radar!  Except most people don't know how to read it :)

>*Wikipedia is outdoing the other encyclopedia's...

Because everyone keeps talking about it, criticizing it so people want to 
see what the noise is about and it's easier to use :)


>*And no surprise for anyone that has looked at their own website stats...
>Google is by far the most popular website

Actually this is debatable.

docs.ajtodd.com receives thousands of referrals a month from YAHOO.  Only a 
handful are from Google.  I get a lot of referrals from NSW government 
internal web sites.  Apparently AJ's web site is part of the Department of 
Community Services training program.  The subject is about how to defeat 
and intimidate parents who stand up to questioning an DoCS officers beliefs 
in action.  Strangely they also use my video without my 
permission.  Had  quite a few people tall me they see the film and the raid 
video in their training courses.  I haven't licensed any part of the NSW 
Government or any person to use my copyright material for training purposes.


1,966       yahoo.com
1,555       google.com.au
1,523       inau.com
1,372       google.com
   406       justiceforfamilies.com
   293       nsw.gov.au
   281       inoz.com
   266       altavista.com
   188       ah.net


This may be because Google no longer indexes web sites by their content, 
but by how many links to their site they can find.  This of course provides 
problems.

I actually object to ranking and listing by "link" counting.  Who wants a 
home page that has a zillion links and no content on it?  The home page 
should be to the point and open the site, not provide the user with 90 
million links to things that link back.

Google has destroyed the function of Search Engines in that manner.

Again, another example where we have deliberately minimised linking to the 
Iconoclast web site, yet have regularly injected search links into Google 
to have it indexed.  We get rejected because we don't encourage too many 
inbound links.  Most are from "Industry" web sites and not indexed by Google.

Yahoo totally out ranks, and yet I've never submitted to Yahoo, nor have I 
encouraged it's listing.

  2,613       yahoo.com
  1,990       if.com.au
    680       google.com.au
    617       mandy.com
    229       msn.com
    217       altavista.com
    209       active.org.au
    205       google.com
    166       ninemsn.com.au






However, my personal web site has a different opinion:


1,083       google.com.au
   974       google.com
   356       yahoo.com
   297       altavista.com
   184       ninemsn.com.au
   176       anu.edu.au
   141       cynosure.com.au
    95       msn.com
    80       google.co.uk











From rick at praxis.com.au  Fri Jan 19 09:26:40 2007
From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Fri Jan 19 11:50:39 2007
Subject: [LINK] PayPal phishing scam - is this a domain hijack
Message-ID: <45AFF420.7020604@praxis.com.au>

I just ran across the following PayPal phishing attempt. What I finf interesting
here is the domain name being used for the scam:

. . . . .

Payment Details
Transaction ID: 7KX030868E9630138
Item Price:     $294.00 USD
Total:          $294.00 USD
Order:          Order #51
Business:       elisom@netvision.net
	

If You Haven't Authorize This Charge , Click The Link Below To Cancel The Payment And Get Full Refumd
Login Here To Cancel The Payment
LINK: 
http://www1.paypal.com.cgi-bin.verify-v50lxsecuressl.activate.onlineservice.accounts.raisedtotheground.com/webscrcmd=update/signinDQAAAG4AAADZ3XcFqGpyVexZXlp42ILckL16sz8USkBXj2StlL2lq74RZi-ZN0FOU7by8X_Jh2pn3AEECKZo8TFq0WyJ8IIGI0qgARKV_pf27Z0dSdpkBPWqiQQcY0sJJ8txaw-ifZToKQeM9OX1D4LVt4HygyKB.html

. . . . .

The 2LD domain is has a website: http://raisedtotheground.com/

So, how did the scammers attach the 3rd and high level domain name
components to this 2LD? Would they have to attack the servers that hosts
the domain (the "authority") and modify the zone files?

BTW: The reason the URL is so long is to further fool people who might
try to glimpse the URL in their email readers. I believe some email clients
cannot display such a long URL in its entirety.


cheers
rickw


-- 
_________________________________
Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services

Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being
governed by those who are dumber.
     -- Plato
From danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au  Fri Jan 19 12:45:06 2007
From: danny at anatomy.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee)
Date: Fri Jan 19 12:45:14 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <F0B32926-D5E8-4462-85CA-9B5316D9AA55@itrundle.com>
References: <200701150953.l0F9pS4t021272@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
	<C1D259E3.692%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<20070118223244.54A5526437@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com>
	<F0B32926-D5E8-4462-85CA-9B5316D9AA55@itrundle.com>
Message-ID: <20070119014506.GD5274@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au>

Talking about IT and water pumps, an old piece I wrote may be of
interest:

	Water pumps as an analogy for Windows and Linux
	http://danny.oz.au/free-software/advocacy/appropriate.html

Danny.
  ---------------------------------------------------------
  http://dannyreviews.com/ - over nine hundred book reviews
  http://danny.oz.au/ - civil liberties, travel tales, blog
  ---------------------------------------------------------
From glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au  Fri Jan 19 13:05:17 2007
From: glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au (Glen Turner)
Date: Fri Jan 19 13:05:38 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <20070118223244.54A5526437@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com>
References: <200701150953.l0F9pS4t021272@anumail0.anu.edu.au>	<C1D259E3.692%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<20070118223244.54A5526437@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <45B0275D.2010401@aarnet.edu.au>

Tom Worthington wrote:

> Solar panels are not cheap

I'm not so sure about that. Large solar panels are expensive. But
I'm increasingly impressed by the small ones -- the sort of thing
that runs your garden lights or changes your phone.  I think
solar is now at the stage where its superceeded technology is
itself efficient enough to be useful.

Related, the amount of power crammed into those little
rechargable AA cells is much more than the old NiCds.
So it's perfectly possible to run the shed lights or
an exhaust fan from a small cell glued to the roof
or built into the fan.  I paid $700 to have the shed
cabled to the house, $70 is more than enough today
to light the thing with solar.

So I think solar is set for a whole range of single-application
uses; rather than a big expensive panel feeding big expensive
batteries.

From rick at praxis.com.au  Fri Jan 19 13:13:24 2007
From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Fri Jan 19 13:13:40 2007
Subject: [LINK] PayPal phishing scam - is this a domain hijack
In-Reply-To: <20070119014319.GC5274@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au>
References: <45AFF420.7020604@praxis.com.au>
	<20070119014319.GC5274@mail.medsci.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <45B02944.6020108@praxis.com.au>

Danny Yee wrote:

>>The 2LD domain is has a website: http://raisedtotheground.com/
> 
>  
> Now saying "This Account Has Been Suspended"...  

I see "Website under construction" and I am making the assumption
that this is a valid (non-phishing) website that has had its higher-level
domain parts hijacked. I am wondering if this is an easy thing to do.

For example, my own domain name is praxis.com.au. Is it easy for someone
to use westpac-security.login.validation.praxis.com.au as a valid
domain and get that into the DNS somehow? I would imagine that would
require some (illegal) hacking of zone files.

cheers
rickw


-- 
_________________________________
Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services

The 7 R's of Windows support: retry, restart, reboot, reconfigure,
reinstall, reformat and finally, replace with Linux.
From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au  Fri Jan 19 14:17:28 2007
From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry)
Date: Fri Jan 19 14:17:38 2007
Subject: [LINK] Photovoltaic solar power was - $100 laptop could sell to
	public
In-Reply-To: <45B0275D.2010401@aarnet.edu.au>
References: <200701150953.l0F9pS4t021272@anumail0.anu.edu.au>	<C1D259E3.692%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<20070118223244.54A5526437@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com>
	<45B0275D.2010401@aarnet.edu.au>
Message-ID: <BAA6F0B6-34A9-4C21-8C6E-25D985906A05@tony-barry.emu.id.au>


On 19/01/2007, at 1:05 PM, Glen Turner wrote:

> I'm not so sure about that. Large solar panels are expensive. But
> I'm increasingly impressed by the small ones -- the sort of thing
> that runs your garden lights or changes your phone.  I think
> solar is now at the stage where its superceeded technology is
> itself efficient enough to be useful.

Green and Gold Energy claim their tracking solar concentrator cells  
can compete with mains power <http://www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au/>.  
The idea is to have a frenel lens in front of a very small solar cell  
and track the sun. Their original design won the ABC inventors or the  
year and they are about ready to go commercial setting up their first  
plant in Adelaide.

And maybe we should unlink this if anybody wants to discuss it.

Tony

phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au
http://tony-barry.emu.id.au


From stil at stilgherrian.com  Fri Jan 19 14:46:59 2007
From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian)
Date: Fri Jan 19 14:47:28 2007
Subject: [LINK] Stats on the move to electronic comms?
Message-ID: <C1D68A63.5CF21%stil@stilgherrian.com>

Gentle Linkers,

I was about to add the following to a presentation:

    These days small businesses do most of their written communication
    by email rather than fax or the post.

But is there any evidence to support this assertion, other than anecdotes
from the well-wired elite?

Does anyone know of any relevant stats?

Stil


-- 
Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/
Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia
mobile +61 407 623 600
fax +61 2 9516 5630
ABN 25 231 641 421







From eric.scheid at ironclad.net.au  Fri Jan 19 15:04:38 2007
From: eric.scheid at ironclad.net.au (Eric Scheid)
Date: Fri Jan 19 15:04:51 2007
Subject: [LINK] PayPal phishing scam - is this a domain hijack
In-Reply-To: <45B02944.6020108@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <C1D68E86.D4EA5%eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au>

On 19/1/07 1:13 PM, "Rick Welykochy" <rick@praxis.com.au> wrote:

> For example, my own domain name is praxis.com.au. Is it easy for someone
> to use westpac-security.login.validation.praxis.com.au as a valid
> domain and get that into the DNS somehow? I would imagine that would
> require some (illegal) hacking of zone files.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNS_cache_poisoning

e.

From rick at praxis.com.au  Fri Jan 19 16:03:06 2007
From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Fri Jan 19 16:03:37 2007
Subject: [LINK] PayPal phishing scam - is this a domain hijack
In-Reply-To: <C1D68E86.D4EA5%eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au>
References: <C1D68E86.D4EA5%eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au>
Message-ID: <45B0510A.9010900@praxis.com.au>

Eric Scheid wrote:

> On 19/1/07 1:13 PM, "Rick Welykochy" <rick@praxis.com.au> wrote:
> 
> 
>>For example, my own domain name is praxis.com.au. Is it easy for someone
>>to use westpac-security.login.validation.praxis.com.au as a valid
>>domain and get that into the DNS somehow? I would imagine that would
>>require some (illegal) hacking of zone files.
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNS_cache_poisoning

Thanks for that one, Eric. Fery interesting.

Can I assume that if a DNS cache poisoning attempt was successful
with, say, online.westpac.com.au, I could without my knowledge log into
a rogue machine thinking I am logging on to https://online.westpac.com.au,
provide my login details and be phished without my knowledge?

If the asnwer is yes, it is certainly a frightful situation. The Wikipedia
article did not go to any lengths to assure me that this sort of thing
cannot happen :(

cheers
rickw




-- 
_________________________________
Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services

The 7 R's of Windows support: retry, restart, reboot, reconfigure,
reinstall, reformat and finally, replace with Linux.
From rick at praxis.com.au  Fri Jan 19 16:18:03 2007
From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Fri Jan 19 16:18:21 2007
Subject: [LINK] PayPal phishing scam - is this a domain hijack
In-Reply-To: <45B0510A.9010900@praxis.com.au>
References: <C1D68E86.D4EA5%eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au>
	<45B0510A.9010900@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <45B0548B.9010508@praxis.com.au>

Rick Welykochy wrote:

> Eric Scheid wrote:
> 
>> On 19/1/07 1:13 PM, "Rick Welykochy" <rick@praxis.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> For example, my own domain name is praxis.com.au. Is it easy for someone
>>> to use westpac-security.login.validation.praxis.com.au as a valid
>>> domain and get that into the DNS somehow? I would imagine that would
>>> require some (illegal) hacking of zone files.
>>
>>
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNS_cache_poisoning

Also, related:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharming

If an attacked can change the hosts file on a victim's computer (!)
they can get them to use an ersatz website, e.g.

92.1.2.3   online.westpac.com.au
92.1.2.3   www.westpac.com.au

Now how hard would it be for phishers to modify the hosts file on
a Windows box? Given that there are MILLIONS of zombies already out
there, I would think it child's play. What a scary thought.

I just tried the www.westpac.com.au example above on Mac OS X
and it worked fine ... I was taken to a web server I run and control,
amd I could have trivially installed a westpac-looking web page on
that server.

I do not think that the https://online.westpac.com.au would work
too well, since the digital cert. check would fail almost all tests.
But I have not tested it.

But given our earlier discussions on how Joe Sixpack ignores warnings
about certificates, I think there would be enough uninformed users
out there who could be phished using the hosts file technique even
for https: connections to ersatz banking web site. Shudder.


cheers
rickw



-- 
_________________________________
Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services

The 7 R's of Windows support: retry, restart, reboot, reconfigure,
reinstall, reformat and finally, replace with Linux.
From rick at praxis.com.au  Fri Jan 19 16:25:15 2007
From: rick at praxis.com.au (Rick Welykochy)
Date: Fri Jan 19 16:25:29 2007
Subject: [LINK] PayPal phishing scam - is this a domain hijack
In-Reply-To: <45B0548B.9010508@praxis.com.au>
References: <C1D68E86.D4EA5%eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au>
	<45B0510A.9010900@praxis.com.au> <45B0548B.9010508@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <45B0563B.4080901@praxis.com.au>

Rick Welykochy wrote:


> If an attacked can change the hosts file on a victim's computer (!)

Of course, I meant "attacker" not "attacked".

> they can get them to use an ersatz website, e.g.
> 
> 92.1.2.3   online.westpac.com.au

I just tried a fake https://online.westpac.com.au/ and it
worked. Using a local hosts file change. The cert warning
came up but I ignored it. Frightening stuff when you realise
there are millions of Windows boxes out there jsut waiting
for their hosts file to be silently modified.


cheers
rickw



-- 
_________________________________
Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services

The 7 R's of Windows support: retry, restart, reboot, reconfigure,
reinstall, reformat and finally, replace with Linux.
From cas at taz.net.au  Fri Jan 19 17:15:58 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Fri Jan 19 17:15:59 2007
Subject: [LINK] PayPal phishing scam - is this a domain hijack
In-Reply-To: <45B0548B.9010508@praxis.com.au>
References: <C1D68E86.D4EA5%eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au>
	<45B0510A.9010900@praxis.com.au> <45B0548B.9010508@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070119061558.GN26390@taz.net.au>

On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 04:18:03PM +1100, Rick Welykochy wrote:
> I do not think that the https://online.westpac.com.au would work
> too well, since the digital cert. check would fail almost all tests.
> But I have not tested it.
> 
> But given our earlier discussions on how Joe Sixpack ignores warnings
> about certificates, I think there would be enough uninformed users
> out there who could be phished using the hosts file technique even
> for https: connections to ersatz banking web site. Shudder.

actually, it's potentially much worse than that.

if an attacker can change the hosts file then there's no reason why they
can't also install a bogus Certificate Authority (CA) certificate so
that the browser will "validate" ANY certificate you sign with it - i.e.
the attacker can make a fake cert for online.westpac.com.au and sign it
with their own CA.

installing a new CA cert would be more complicated than just changing
the hosts file, but not unfeasibly so...and once someone has done it
once or twice, they could script the entire process.


a security chain is only as strong as the weakest link - and MS Windows
is a very weak link, it undermines everything else.

craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From kim.holburn at gmail.com  Fri Jan 19 20:47:10 2007
From: kim.holburn at gmail.com (Kim Holburn)
Date: Fri Jan 19 20:47:34 2007
Subject: [LINK] PayPal phishing scam - is this a domain hijack
In-Reply-To: <45AFF420.7020604@praxis.com.au>
References: <45AFF420.7020604@praxis.com.au>
Message-ID: <0D13157C-9B95-472B-8194-23F449EAC0A3@gmail.com>


On 2007/Jan/18, at 11:26 PM, Rick Welykochy wrote:

> I just ran across the following PayPal phishing attempt. What I  
> finf interesting
> here is the domain name being used for the scam:
>
> . . . . .
>
> Payment Details
> Transaction ID: 7KX030868E9630138
> Item Price:     $294.00 USD
> Total:          $294.00 USD
> Order:          Order #51
> Business:       elisom@netvision.net
> 	
>
> If You Haven't Authorize This Charge , Click The Link Below To  
> Cancel The Payment And Get Full Refumd
> Login Here To Cancel The Payment
> LINK: http://www1.paypal.com.cgi-bin.verify- 
> v50lxsecuressl.activate.onlineservice.accounts.raisedtotheground.com/w 
> ebscrcmd=update/ 
> signinDQAAAG4AAADZ3XcFqGpyVexZXlp42ILckL16sz8USkBXj2StlL2lq74RZi- 
> ZN0FOU7by8X_Jh2pn3AEECKZo8TFq0WyJ8IIGI0qgARKV_pf27Z0dSdpkBPWqiQQcY0sJJ 
> 8txaw-ifZToKQeM9OX1D4LVt4HygyKB.html

There are many many ways to obfuscate the url.  This is one of the  
simpler ones.  You could use tinyurl.  You can use urls like these  
and combine different schemes but most people don't even check the  
host name and why should they have to?

http://%77%77%77%2E%67%6F%6F%67%6C%65%2E%63%6F%6D
http://209.85.135.103
http://www.paypal.com@www.google.com

There's also language encoding of dns names, like unicode, utf, etc

Then there's the link text if it's an html email.

I've seen phishing sites that almost immediately redirect you through  
to the real website with a special bit of javascript added in.


> . . . . .
>
> The 2LD domain is has a website: http://raisedtotheground.com/
>
> So, how did the scammers attach the 3rd and high level domain name
> components to this 2LD? Would they have to attack the servers that  
> hosts
> the domain (the "authority") and modify the zone files?

They probably bought the domain name with a prepaid "credit" card for  
the purpose.  If they have a compromised windows box with a dynamic  
DNS system they can call it whatever they like.  If it's a  
compromised windows DNS server ....  In this case looks like a  
wildcard entry.

It's easier and cheaper to become a domain registrar these days isn't  
it?

$ host www1.paypal.com.cgi-bin.verify- 
v50lxsecuressl.activate.onlineservice.accounts.raisedtotheground.com  
NS41.BITESITES.COM
Using domain server:
Name: NS41.BITESITES.COM
Address: 216.66.19.100#53
Aliases:

www1.paypal.com.cgi-bin.verify- 
v50lxsecuressl.activate.onlineservice.accounts.raisedtotheground.com  
has address 216.66.19.100


> The Registry database contains ONLY .COM, .NET, .EDU domains and
> Registrars.
> =-=-=-=
> Visit AboutUs.org for more information about raisedtotheground.com
> <a href="http://www.aboutus.org/raisedtotheground.com">AboutUs:  
> raisedtotheground.com</a>
>
> Registration Service Provided By: NameCheap.com
> Contact: support@NameCheap.com
> Visit: http://www.namecheap.com/
>
> Domain name: raisedtotheground.com
>
> Registrant Contact:
>    Screen Hosting
>    Nick Hurley (nick@screenhosting.co.uk)
>    +1.000000
>    Fax: +1.5555555555
>    Screen Hosting
>    37 Plov.
>    Kingswinford, WE DY68XU
>    GB
>
> Administrative Contact:
>    Screen Hosting
>    Nick Hurley (nick@screenhosting.co.uk)
>    +1.000000
>    Fax: +1.5555555555
>    Screen Hosting
>    37 Plov.
>    Kingswinford, WE DY68XU
>    GB
>
> Technical Contact:
>    Screen Hosting
>    Nick Hurley (nick@screenhosting.co.uk)
>    +1.000000
>    Fax: +1.5555555555
>    Screen Hosting
>    37 Plov.
>    Kingswinford, WE DY68XU
>    GB
>
> Status: Locked
>
> Name Servers:
>    NS41.BITESITES.COM
>    NS42.BITESITES.COM
>
> Creation date: 20 Mar 2006 15:34:33
> Expiration date: 20 Mar 2007 15:34:33



> BTW: The reason the URL is so long is to further fool people who might
> try to glimpse the URL in their email readers. I believe some email  
> clients
> cannot display such a long URL in its entirety.
>
>
> cheers
> rickw
>
>
> -- 
> _________________________________
> Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services
>
> Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being
> governed by those who are dumber.
>     -- Plato
> _______________________________________________
> Link mailing list
> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au
> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link

--
Kim Holburn
IT Network & Security Consultant
Ph: +39 06 855 4294  M: +39 3342707610
mailto:kim@holburn.net  aim://kimholburn
skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request

Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny.
                           -- Lloyd Biggle, Jr. Analog, Apr 1961



From link at todd.inoz.com  Fri Jan 19 23:11:17 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Fri Jan 19 23:11:47 2007
Subject: [LINK] PayPal phishing scam - is this a domain hijack
In-Reply-To: <0D13157C-9B95-472B-8194-23F449EAC0A3@gmail.com>
References: <45AFF420.7020604@praxis.com.au>
	<0D13157C-9B95-472B-8194-23F449EAC0A3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070119231013.031ea4d0@wheresmymailserver.com>



You forgot Integer Number URL's (discussed on link about 7 years ago).

can't be bothered working out an example, but dnsstuff.com will do them for 
you!


At 08:47 PM 19/01/2007, Kim Holburn wrote:
>>LINK: http://www1.paypal.com.cgi-bin.verify- 
>>v50lxsecuressl.activate.onlineservice.accounts.raisedtotheground.com/w 
>>ebscrcmd=update/ 
>>signinDQAAAG4AAADZ3XcFqGpyVexZXlp42ILckL16sz8USkBXj2StlL2lq74RZi- 
>>ZN0FOU7by8X_Jh2pn3AEECKZo8TFq0WyJ8IIGI0qgARKV_pf27Z0dSdpkBPWqiQQcY0sJJ 
>>8txaw-ifZToKQeM9OX1D4LVt4HygyKB.html
>
>There are many many ways to obfuscate the url.  This is one of the
>simpler ones.  You could use tinyurl.  You can use urls like these
>and combine different schemes but most people don't even check the
>host name and why should they have to?
>
>http://%77%77%77%2E%67%6F%6F%67%6C%65%2E%63%6F%6D
>http://209.85.135.103
>http://www.paypal.com@www.google.com
>
>There's also language encoding of dns names, like unicode, utf, etc
>
>Then there's the link text if it's an html email.
>
>I've seen phishing sites that almost immediately redirect you through
>to the real website with a special bit of javascript added in.

From stephen at melbpc.org.au  Fri Jan 19 23:43:02 2007
From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley)
Date: Fri Jan 19 23:45:16 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <20070118223244.54A5526437@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com>
References: <200701150953.l0F9pS4t021272@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
	<C1D259E3.692%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<20070118223244.54A5526437@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070119224047.01efbe90@melbpc.org.au>

At 09:00 AM 19/01/2007, Tom writes:

> I am still not sure a $100 laptop for each child is the way

Neither am I but people are working hard to do exactly that. 

And I do think it's fat-white-west to diss these efforts to give
remote schools free, clockwork and quite desirable laptops.

The only people who could possibly attack anyone working
to help others in this way would be people actually trying to
send free pipes-to-Pakistan. They want both, why not help?

And, why would one crap on efforts to help kids in any way?
Uninformed cynicism might seem almost 'evil' to some folk.
Basically, if you don't like it, either help or get out of the way
is the over-whelming response one is hearing on other lists.

Maybe it is the wrong way to help (?) but people who would
not be helping in any way are rushing to do just that. Laying
off the uninformed 'rich-white-sophisticate' seems sensible.

Cheers, linkers
Stephen Loosley
Victoria, Australia



-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.0/639 - Release Date: 18/01/2007 6:47 PM


From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Fri Jan 19 23:42:53 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Fri Jan 19 23:50:10 2007
Subject: [LINK] RFI: Dublin Core 10 Years On
In-Reply-To: <p06230908c1d484d4fe74@[192.168.0.64]>
References: <p06240805c1d3321d639e@[192.168.123.167]>
	<p06230908c1d484d4fe74@[192.168.0.64]>
Message-ID: <5ii197$269bgs@ipmail02.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 01:10 PM 18/01/2007, Linda Rouse wrote:
>>Are there convenient mechanisms to support authors to quickly 
>>generate metadata for their documents just before they release them?
><SNIP>
>Some of the better CMS and DAM systems have prefillers for metadata 
>and templates for on-the-fly metadata creation with say, a dropdown 
>to select a specific subject etc.

There were some early tools developed by DSTC back in the late 
90s/early 00s. I'll toot a horn for a project that I worked on 
(design, operational processes, and on-going maintenance) from 1998 
until January 2006, Agrigate, one of the longest running subject 
gateways until Melbourne Uni pulled the plug. We modeled the data 
structures on DC plus a few local fields for record management. 
Sadly, the link doesn't appear to be active at all any longer 
(www.agrigate.edu.au). I have no idea what happened to the >600 
records that were written for evaluated agriculture information from 
around the world as well as Australia. It's one of those that if 
people had sense should have been captured in one of the archives. 
But for some reason (personnel changes) I doubt it. It used to be 
linked into the ARROW project, but that and the University of 
Melbourne are nowhere to be found.

One of the things that was/is terrific about DC was the way it 
allowed repository exchange. If you have the same data structures in 
general, you have a fighting chance of distributed searching and 
record merging for information sources with value added descriptions. 
It was never perfect, but it was much better than trying to migrate 
between proprietary systems. Data life and application is more than 
creation for better return on the investment if that is going to be 
measured by use, for example.

Jan


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Fri Jan 19 23:50:29 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Fri Jan 19 23:55:17 2007
Subject: [LINK] Telstra propose biggest rollout in Australia's
In-Reply-To: <C1D573FF.6AE%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <200701172252.l0HMq8h5024360@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
	<C1D573FF.6AE%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <5ii197$269cmk@ipmail02.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 06:59 PM 18/01/2007, Stewart Fist wrote:
>Since Telstra is a monopoly by virtue of owning the street
>ducting, it can afford to wait.  There isn't a wireless protocol that can
>challenge it.

[admitting there are more messages in this thread that I haven't read yet]

I understand that the wireless service isn't exactly robust either. A 
colleague was telling me today that she went for wireless because she 
was moving around a lot, housewise, just the thing the Tel$tra ads 
say it's good for. She thinks it's pretty bad. Keeps cutting out. 
Tells her she's already connected just after she's been told there 
isn't a connection. Pretty miserable stuff. She's not the brightest 
tool in the box when it comes to technology, so I don't know if the 
troubles are due to something she is or is not doing. Even so, you 
would expect it to at least work and stay connected for what you pay for it.

Jan


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From jwhit at janwhitaker.com  Sat Jan 20 00:29:07 2007
From: jwhit at janwhitaker.com (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Sat Jan 20 00:35:47 2007
Subject: [LINK] Fwd: Publishers Lunch
Message-ID: <5ii197$269mjl@ipmail02.adl2.internode.on.net>

Ran across this little gem on a mailing list today.

>Book More Sales
>
>Get your titles in front of millions of Windows Live users FREE with 
>Windows Live Book Search
>
>Windows Live Book Search is Microsoft's forthcoming online search 
>service for book content. To submit your titles simply upload them 
>in digital format or send us printed books, and control the amount 
>of content displayed. Link your commerce-enabled Web site to our 
>pages so that users can easily purchase your titles. And connect 
>with millions of Windows Live Search users who are looking for 
>content like yours.
>
>It's easy and it's FREE!
>
><http://click.email-publisher.com/maafz8Labv0nnaBS04DeaeQxXH/>http://publisher.live.com/ 
>

[Free if you use M$ reader perhaps? Lots of strings with that I found 
out when I started to install it. ]


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Sat Jan 20 10:13:25 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Sat Jan 20 10:15:58 2007
Subject: [LINK] Solar cells
In-Reply-To: <200701191255.l0JCtXTR023902@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <C1D79BC5.6C2%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>

Glen writes:
> 
> I'm not so sure about that. Large solar panels are expensive. But
> I'm increasingly impressed by the small ones -- the sort of thing
> that runs your garden lights or changes your phone.  I think
> solar is now at the stage where its superceeded technology is
> itself efficient enough to be useful.

Glen's Big vs, Little point is important

We can also ask, are they:

Useful?      Definitely Yes.
Cheap?       Probably No
Efficient?   Definitely not
Fragile?     I haven't been able to find any useful information.
Long-lasting?  No one really knows, and it must depend on the type.


The last time I looked the combined 'energy cost' of manufacturing
large-panel solar cells and the electrical storage unit to make them useful,
was marginally higher (according to some sources) than the energy they would
generate over a life-time.  Other sources said it was lower.

Either way, the margin is not too great if you are considering solar as an
alternative to conventional energy sources -- unless you've got no
alternative.

If you can bring in a power-cable from some distant grid, for a reasonable
multiple of the cost of a solar unit, it will probably be justified very
quickly.

Of course, it also depends on what the solar cell promoters mean by a
lifetime.  Are large panels of solar cells able to withstand the occasional
heavy hailstorm?  

Most sites just ignore this question, although one promotional site says:

"Most are tested for hail damage, but the reality is that hail tends to
glance off the module?s surface because of the angle that most arrays are
installed at. However, given a strong enough impact, modules could break. If
a module is shattered or punctured, it would eventually fail due to water
getting into the solar cells and causing corrosion. "

After seeing the damage to tiled roofs in Sydney a few years ago, I don't
find that reassuring, and even less so when it comes to costing the energy
efficiency.

The collector-type systems which use curved metal mirrors to bounce the
energy back to smaller high-temperature silicon cells are protected against
hail but they require motors, etc. to track the sun.  Then they require
technicians on hand.

The claim that a solar panel can last 25 years, is also one that I'd take
with a grain of salt.  And, if we really are seeing rapid advancements in
the technology, then most installed today would be obsolete long before
this.

Has anyone got any trustworthy figures on costs, returns, etc in terms of
energy as well as money?



-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458


From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au  Sat Jan 20 10:35:34 2007
From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (Richard Chirgwin)
Date: Sat Jan 20 10:35:46 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070119224047.01efbe90@melbpc.org.au>
References: <200701150953.l0F9pS4t021272@anumail0.anu.edu.au>	<C1D259E3.692%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>	<20070118223244.54A5526437@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070119224047.01efbe90@melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <45B155C6.1020303@ozemail.com.au>

Stephen Loosley wrote:
> At 09:00 AM 19/01/2007, Tom writes:
>
>   
>> I am still not sure a $100 laptop for each child is the way
>>     
>
> Neither am I but people are working hard to do exactly that. 
>
> And I do think it's fat-white-west to diss these efforts to give
> remote schools free, clockwork and quite desirable laptops.
>
> The only people who could possibly attack anyone working
> to help others in this way would be people actually trying to
> send free pipes-to-Pakistan. They want both, why not help?
>   
The politician's syllogism: "We must do something -- this is something 
-- we must do this".

Nobody is denying the need to help, we're debating the value of this 
particular initiative.
> And, why would one crap on efforts to help kids in any way?
> Uninformed cynicism might seem almost 'evil' to some folk.
> Basically, if you don't like it, either help or get out of the way
> is the over-whelming response one is hearing on other lists.
>   
Sequitur please? In what way do I have to accept an instruction from 
someone, somewhere, that I need to shut my mouth because I have some 
responsibility to "get with the program"? In what way is discussion or 
debate of the merits of the idea somehow wrong or unacceptable.

I have said before - but it is wasted breath in front of a zealot - that 
if an idea is a good idea, then it can stand scrutiny. If it's not a 
good idea, then debate is the right thing to do. But if the idea - 
whether it's fibre to the home or OLPC - cannot stand discussion, then 
it's the idea which is at fault, not the discussion. "Help <our way> or 
get out of the way" is not debate, and let me be one against a hundred, 
I will still say "the idea needs debate".
> Maybe it is the wrong way to help (?) but people who would
> not be helping in any way are rushing to do just that. Laying
> off the uninformed 'rich-white-sophisticate' seems sensible.
>   
I wish to be informed, but there are many points in the OLPC debate 
about which information is hard to come by. Let me give one example: to 
accept that OLPC is a good way to spend money on third-world education, 
I have to accept many premises all at once:
1. Computers are a better way to spend money than teachers and books
2. The relevant governments place a high value on a particular kind of 
education which is best facilitated by computers
3. The OLPC is the best or most feasible way to deliver the computers
4. The computers themselves will provide long-term value without "doing 
what computers do" and falling out of step with the information and 
software they need to access five years from now

Now: (2) is ridiculous, with many governments visibly and loudly 
anti-education; while (3) and (4) are still debatable.

As for (1): it is supported by much more advocacy than evidence. "So 
many educated people have computers" is evidence that education allows 
you to buy things, including computers; it doesn't offer evidence that 
computers support the education. "Look at all the laptops students 
carry" is evidence that there's a status race among schools, students 
and parents. And even educational software itself is subject to regular 
revolutions which suggests to someone who's watched this stuff for a 
couple of decades that we're still surveying the territory even in the west.

The OLPC is driven by fine sentiments and laudable enthusiasm. Sentiment 
and enthusiasm are good for petrol in the tank, but they're lousy 
map-readers. So what is the sin in asking these questions? That I offend 
someone's enthusiasms? I think I can live with myself...

Rc
> Cheers, linkers
> Stephen Loosley
> Victoria, Australia
>
>
>
>   
   
From link at todd.inoz.com  Sat Jan 20 12:39:28 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Sat Jan 20 12:43:09 2007
Subject: [LINK] Solar cells
In-Reply-To: <C1D79BC5.6C2%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <200701191255.l0JCtXTR023902@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
	<C1D79BC5.6C2%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070120121550.030bfe38@wheresmymailserver.com>

At 10:13 AM 20/01/2007, Stewart Fist wrote:
>Glen writes:
> >
> > I'm not so sure about that. Large solar panels are expensive. But
> > I'm increasingly impressed by the small ones -- the sort of thing
> > that runs your garden lights or changes your phone.  I think
> > solar is now at the stage where its superceeded technology is
> > itself efficient enough to be useful.
>
>Glen's Big vs, Little point is important
>
>We can also ask, are they:
>
>Useful?      Definitely Yes.

Very.

>Cheap?       Probably No

I've been buying 100-400 Watt panels as that's what I can "afford" to buy, 
rather than being the best price per Watt.

>Efficient?   Definitely not

In Australia, at least in Sydney, yes.  My panels constantly, especially in 
summer, exceed their power ratings.  Most of the time the volts are higher 
than rated and the current is between 15-30% greater.

Capturing that extra source has made my panels perhaps a better bang per 
buck overall.

>Fragile?     I haven't been able to find any useful information.

I've had mine on my roof now for up to 8 years.  They are all still working 
individually and collectively very well.  None have been damaged by hail 
storms, tree branches or other weird events.

>Long-lasting?  No one really knows, and it must depend on the type.

Some are 8 years, some are 4 years.  Not bad really.

My whole office is run from Solar power.  I don't have enough juice to run 
a Large Family Fridge but then that's hardly a critical resource most of 
the time.

>The last time I looked the combined 'energy cost' of manufacturing
>large-panel solar cells and the electrical storage unit to make them useful,
>was marginally higher (according to some sources) than the energy they would
>generate over a life-time.  Other sources said it was lower.

It seems to vary.  Although BP Solar have a good process.

>Either way, the margin is not too great if you are considering solar as an
>alternative to conventional energy sources -- unless you've got no
>alternative.

Our payback was calculated over five years.  As we've put more resources 
onto the system than we had anticipated, our payback was brought down to 
3.8 years.  Hence my expansion at 4 years.  Which is just now coming to the 
end of it's "cost" period and into a savings period.

Strangely over the same time, the electricity bill has only INCREASED by 
about 20-30% even though we use less most of the time.

I'd have thought a CPI increase of a few percent was barely acceptable, but 
it's been far greater than that.

And with Integral upping it's fees in the last 12 months, I'm now looking 
at putting more solar in to take general lighting off the grid, as well as 
a lot of the kitchen appliances we use.

They don't use a lot of power, but still.  It adds up.

I've already prepared a "temporary" conversion to 12 volt energy saver 
styled lights.  They are equally as bright as 240volt lights, but use even 
less power overall.  Adding photo cells so they can come on and off 
depending on the light ambience in areas of the house will help too.


>If you can bring in a power-cable from some distant grid, for a reasonable
>multiple of the cost of a solar unit, it will probably be justified very
>quickly.

Maybe in the short term, but not the long term, and not as the quality of 
power degrades and the load increases.

We already have regular blackouts in our area on hot days caused by the 
excessive number of air conditioners.  We don't have one, even if we did, 
we'd use it sparingly.

My UPS's trip regularly, several times a day because of brownouts, too much 
noise on the input or over voltage.

Only the oldest of the TV's in the house aren't on a UPS.  (Those I picked 
up in council cleanups!)  The few CRT's that are left here are also on the 
mains power, but via filters.

Sometimes you can see the power shifting during the day!

>Of course, it also depends on what the solar cell promoters mean by a
>lifetime.  Are large panels of solar cells able to withstand the occasional
>heavy hailstorm?

We had a carpeting of hail in the last year and the first thing I did was, 
during the storm, rescue my panels.  I think my efforts were less than 
useful as I was only able to cover a couple of the panels during the storm 
itself.  There was no damage.


>Most sites just ignore this question, although one promotional site says:
>
>"Most are tested for hail damage, but the reality is that hail tends to
>glance off the module?s surface because of the angle that most arrays are
>installed at. However, given a strong enough impact, modules could break. If
>a module is shattered or punctured, it would eventually fail due to water
>getting into the solar cells and causing corrosion. "

That's correct.  I check for seepage every 6 months anyway, just in 
case.  So far none have shown any "wear and tear" so I'm pretty pleased.


>After seeing the damage to tiled roofs in Sydney a few years ago, I don't
>find that reassuring, and even less so when it comes to costing the energy
>efficiency.

You know there are options. You can install over your panels a perspex 
sheeting.  Costly yes, but it does solve the problem for the longer term, 
probably adding about 2 months to your payback costing.

As the panels I've purchased have been "reasonably" cheap and I've put the 
difference in spending aside for new panels, I'd just replace any that 
break either with the same type if it was less than 2 years old, or a 
larger, lower cost per watt panel if it's outside the four year mark.

I'm now looking at more portable solutions.

>The collector-type systems which use curved metal mirrors to bounce the
>energy back to smaller high-temperature silicon cells are protected against
>hail but they require motors, etc. to track the sun.  Then they require
>technicians on hand.

Nope, don't have anything like that, but I have considered it.

I already have a sun tracker I designed and built out of old dot matrix 
printer motors and parts.  I was starting to develop a panel tilt and 
movement system, with a "vertical rise" in case of storm mode.

But so far only the tracking of the sun has been achieved :)  The motors do 
follow the sun with pin point accurate :)

I was going to install a telescope and CCD camera on the tracker to follow 
the sun and web cam it, but haven't had time :)

Incidentally I use the same tracking system for my Motion camera rig for 
tracking human and object movement :)

>The claim that a solar panel can last 25 years, is also one that I'd take
>with a grain of salt.

I'll tell you in about 15 :)

>And, if we really are seeing rapid advancements in the technology, then 
>most installed today would be obsolete long before this.

Yes the technology seems to improve every 3-5 years and the cost seems to 
be fairly stable.  Maybe down a few points every year.

The problem is with the Governments 50% rebate, the prices just doubled, so 
we're paying too much.

And the rebate is only available for "professionally" installed systems on 
a fixed premises.  So if you wanted to move and take your solar with you, 
you can't.  Which is stupid really.  Because the system is designed for 
YOUR needs, not the next person.

If we left our system here, most people would have an excess of power they 
were unable to store.

My system has been designed to run 24x7 power needs, unlike most homes that 
have 8 hours of darkness, less the fridge, but it cycles less over 
night.  I can't imagine there are too many people that have to have 1.5 
KVA/hr of power available 24 x 7 continuously day and night.

We only use 1.27KVA/hr

And don't forget in most cases, the night isn't the only dark time in a 
house, most people go to work leaving houses dark during the day too.  I 
had to compensate for the fact that our house is active all day, using the 
power all day, because we have 6+ people here every day of the week.  If we 
all went to work and left the house empty, the batteries would charge 
during the day and supply us with power during the night.  That's not our case.

I have computers, monitors, security, online and powered 24 x 7.  Then we 
have regular use of fridge, hot water and lighting all day and night.

The office in my home is permanently lit with energy savers because it gets 
very little natural light - not enough to work by.  There is no natural 
light in the garage :)

>Has anyone got any trustworthy figures on costs, returns, etc in terms of
>energy as well as money?

I'd not want to offer my figures for the obvious reasons described above:

1.  Not a typical installation.  It's a 24x7 minimum load that is "high"
     by most households use.
2.  Has been grown and added.
3.  Didn't intend to compare supplied power vs solar
4.  Supply costs have gone up, seemingly proportional to the saving
     However, we use less supply than we otherwise would.
5.  We don't use solar for fridges and hot water (sigh)




From link at todd.inoz.com  Sat Jan 20 12:42:10 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Sat Jan 20 12:43:17 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070119224047.01efbe90@melbpc.org.au>
References: <200701150953.l0F9pS4t021272@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
	<C1D259E3.692%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<20070118223244.54A5526437@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070119224047.01efbe90@melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070120124019.030a23e0@wheresmymailserver.com>

At 11:43 PM 19/01/2007, Stephen Loosley wrote:
>At 09:00 AM 19/01/2007, Tom writes:
>
>And, why would one crap on efforts to help kids in any way?

Is anyone going to give my four kids a free laptop.  Goodness it would save 
the fights, brawls, yelling and screaming that goes on around the house at 
all but the sleeping hours!

Please send me SIX Free $100 laptops!  My boy shave taken to playing Flash 
games online - to my destain.

>Maybe it is the wrong way to help (?) but people who would
>not be helping in any way are rushing to do just that. Laying
>off the uninformed 'rich-white-sophisticate' seems sensible.

Then again, kids playing with laptops become dependant on the technology to 
get through each day.  Then they will have to buy better technology to do 
the next thing they need to do.

And people wonder why I keep my kids away from computers for the purpose of 
"games"


From kauer at biplane.com.au  Sat Jan 20 15:55:54 2007
From: kauer at biplane.com.au (Karl Auer)
Date: Sat Jan 20 15:56:16 2007
Subject: [LINK] Solar cells
In-Reply-To: <C1D79BC5.6C2%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <C1D79BC5.6C2%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <1169268954.5841.325.camel@localhost.localdomain>

> Fragile?     I haven't been able to find any useful information.

Solar panels are not fragile. They are not indestructible, but they are
certainly not fragile.

> Long-lasting?  No one really knows, and it must depend on the type.

BP Solar guarantee theirs for 25 years for power production,  3 years
for workmanship. Dunno what happens if workmanship problems stp them
producing power :-)

> The last time I looked the combined 'energy cost' of manufacturing
> large-panel solar cells and the electrical storage unit to make them useful,
> was marginally higher (according to some sources) than the energy they would
> generate over a life-time.  Other sources said it was lower.

This is a vexed question. I've found no conclusive answer, and both
sides of the argument make some very big assumptions.

> If you can bring in a power-cable from some distant grid, for a reasonable
> multiple of the cost of a solar unit, it will probably be justified very
> quickly.

It costs about 15K per pole to get the grid on, and a decent solar power
system costs 30-50K. In many areas the grid is unreliable, noisy and
dirty. All (yes, all) the stories I've heard from people who don't like
their solar power systems boil down to the same basic problem: They
installed a system that was too small or too complicated.

> Of course, it also depends on what the solar cell promoters mean by a
> lifetime.  Are large panels of solar cells able to withstand the occasional
> heavy hailstorm?  

Mostly yes. Depends on the angle of the panels and the heaviness of the
storm. Economically it is an insurance question, or as Glen suggested,
simple protective measures will reduce the chance of damage. Nothing is
proof positive against all eventualities - solar panels are bloody
tough, but heavy enough wind will take the panels and hard enough hail
will break them. Lightning striking the wrong spot will fry them.
Vandalism is also an issue for some sites.

The same sorts of arguments can be applied to any technology that is not
completely case hardened. Do we factor the risk of accident into the
"cost" of, say, a hybrid car? Probably we should. The Swiss were trying
for geothermal energy in Basel - and setting off earth tremors *3.5R!).
They've stopped trying now :-)

When people hear how much we paid for solar, they just shake their
heads, but the fundamental point is that when you factor all the costs
of other energy sources (pollution, global warming, whatever),
electrical energy is just way too cheap. Which breeds a culture where
energy is not valued, a culture that spends energy like, er, water :-)
Our solar panels etc don't make economic sense - but they do, we think,
make a different kind of sense.

Regards, K.

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/~kauer/                  +61-428-957160 (mob)

From glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au  Sat Jan 20 21:28:11 2007
From: glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au (Glen Turner)
Date: Sat Jan 20 21:28:22 2007
Subject: [LINK] Solar cells
In-Reply-To: <1169268954.5841.325.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <C1D79BC5.6C2%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<1169268954.5841.325.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <45B1EEBB.3010009@aarnet.edu.au>


Hi Karl,

Glad to hear it is working well.


On your point about economic sense, I quite like this quote from Sir
David Attenborough in front of some UK committee:
<http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmselect/cmenvfru/uc88-iii/uc8802.htm>

> Q512 James Duddridge: In order to mitigate against climate change what
> two single actions can, first, individuals take and, secondly, would
> you advise the British Government to take?
> 
> Sir David Attenborough: I grew up during the war and during the war it
> was a common view that wasting food was wrong, and it was not that you
> thought you were going to defeat Hitler by eating up a little bit of
> gristly meat but that it was wrong to waste food. People felt that
> widely and universally and I think people do not do the sort of
> arithmetic which we have been talking about earlier on very often,
> some do and some do not. There should be a general moral view that
> wasting energy is wrong. Everything we do goes on up there and stays
> up there for 100 years or so in terms of carbon dioxide, and the more
> it does, the hotter it is going to get, the less it does, the less hot
> it will get. Therefore, it does not matter whether it is a tiny bit or
> a big bit, but it is your general attitude to life and I sense that is
> already in the process. People do look at 4x4s in central London and
> curl a lip already. It is part of the conversation, that that is
> wasting energy. I am hopeful that there is a real change taking place
> in moral attitudes which is not to do with saving pennies here or
> there, it is just that it is morally wrong to waste energy because we
> are putting at hazard our own grandchildren.

Computing, and networking in particular, is front and centre when it comes
to the wasteful use of electricity.  It's the weekend, and yet every
ethernet switch runs as though it is facing peak load, just so you get
this e-mail milliseconds earlier.

Cheers, Glen
From glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au  Sat Jan 20 21:35:11 2007
From: glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au (Glen Turner)
Date: Sat Jan 20 21:35:20 2007
Subject: [LINK] Analogue TV frequencies not just used for TV,
 so spanner in works of spectrum sale
Message-ID: <45B1F05F.7020107@aarnet.edu.au>


Something to watch for here in a few years?


The Register
<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/01/20/ofcom_sell_off/>

LISTEN TO THE BAND?
Ofcom spectrum sale hurts more than just the luvvies
Comment
By Bill Ray

Ofcom's consultation on the Digital Dividend, aka selling off the
analogue TV frequencies, has attracted more than its share of
attention from El Reg readers who are in uproar about the proposed
disconnection of the wirelessly connected.

Ofcom is consulting on a proposal to sell the frequencies currently
used by analogue TV when the grand switch over to digital starts in
2008. But lurking among the TV channels are hundreds of wireless
microphones and communications equipment used by the entertainment
industry, using short-term licenses allocated by the Joint Frequency
Management Group (JFMG) at, relatively, low cost.

Reader DT summed it up nicely...

    Can you imagine Cats being done with cabled mics, or Starlite
    Express, or Les Mis, or The Lion King? I can't. I did see
    Superstar in the west end during the 70s and marvelled that no-one
    got tripped up or tied up in the myriad number of cables that
    snaked constantly about the stage.

But it's not just musical theatre that will suffer, as Fletcher
Fletchowicz points out...

    Regarding the sellout of radio frequencies and complaints of
    theatre types: channel 69, the part of the spectrum allocated for
    radio mics, is also used by film and television crews. So as well
    as no more theatre you'll be facing no more Bill, no more
    Hollyoaks, no more Dr Who, and no more quality UK production
    anywhere.

...and no more Big Brother. Channel 69 may get a stay of execution as
an unregulated channel, but without any guarantee of quality you might
miss the latest racist slur. But it's not all good news. As John
points out:

    This is actually quite a serious issue - both for the professional
    theatres and, possibly even more so, for amateur societies as well
    as churches and roaming conferences (and the freelance PA people
    who provide for such events).

    I think Ofcom need to take a good long look at who uses the RF
    spectrum around the analogue TV frequencies, and allocate various
    sections (preferably the same as a currently used, having just
    spent several thousand pounds on radio mics) for low cost, local
    licences (inc. temporary and non-exclusive ones).

Ofcom is proposing to keep some space available for a while - until
2012 - but with its contract with the JFMG expiring in September 2008
there'll be no one to manage allocations unless it's extended.

Meanwhile, theatre companies are already reluctant to buy more
equipment for fear of being unable to use it once Ofcom decides what
to do. With an individual microphone rig costing up to ?10,000 it's
unsurprising they've started renting kit from abroad rather than
investing in such an uncertain future.  Some readers, such as Matt
Bieneman, looked to a more technical solution:

    I and several of my friends have used these systems since they
    came out about two years ago. They work incredibly well, even in
    areas with lots of interference and 2.4 GHz AirPort
    systems. Although I don't have personal experience using 50 or
    more channels, others do; these systems can work with up to about
    100 channels.

According to the professionals, such digital systems are still not
suitable for commercial use - not only do they lack the quality needed
for theatre, they also introduce an unacceptable latency. The Sabine
system also uses 2.4GHz, where competition from Wi-Fi, Bluetooth and
even microwave ovens makes guaranteeing quality of service very
difficult.

The industry is looking at digital technologies, and developments
might take the problem away, but would you bet an industry on it?

It might seem that an industry which claims to be worth ?15bn annually
could afford to bid for spectrum like everyone else. But that ?15bn
doesn't come to the theatres; most of it goes to hotels, travel, and
other expenses incurred by the 60 per cent of West End audiences who
come from abroad. So, the proponents argue, an industry that brings so
much to the UK deserves to be a special case: Ofcom should hand over
some spectrum for the good of the country, or at least, for the good
of the tourist industry.

Reserving a few deregulated channels might help those running church
fates or Highland games, but deregulation would in turn make it
impossible for professionals to rely on them. The JMFG has set up a
site where you can check how the proposals might impact your usage,
which will depend on the frequencies you are currently using.

Ofcom swears blind that this isn't about making money, but about
"maximising the value that the use of this spectrum is likely to bring
to society over time", though the name - digital dividend - would seem
to belie that ideal. Promises to work region by region, or hold open
frequencies until 2012, will just drive professionals mad and make
investment in the industry an even more risky proposition.

As a country we need to decide if the entertainment industry deserves
special treatment, because of the money it brings into the country and
the prestige it confers on the UK. Otherwise, we could bet the farm on
a technical solution or just sell off the spectrum to the highest
bidder.

Ofcom is still accepting comments on the proposal, and nothing has
been decided, but a great deal more than the next series of Big
Brother is at stake here.
From stephen at melbpc.org.au  Sat Jan 20 21:40:29 2007
From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley)
Date: Sat Jan 20 21:40:57 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <45B155C6.1020303@ozemail.com.au>
References: <200701150953.l0F9pS4t021272@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
	<C1D259E3.692%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<20070118223244.54A5526437@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070119224047.01efbe90@melbpc.org.au>
	<45B155C6.1020303@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070120211800.021c5008@melbpc.org.au>

At 10:35 AM 20/01/2007, Richard writes:

> The OLPC is driven by fine sentiments and laudable enthusiasm.
> So what is the sin in asking these questions? 

If that were all, then, great ... it's comments like in your last post that
I must say get me down regarding a philanthropic education initiative.

Eg: > "The entire scheme is wonderful publicity and that's *all*. "

Which, to me, is unfair and beneath you, Richard. Still, I must admit
that, though after ten years Link of membership I believe my posting
re this was my first 'emotional' type response (and which I don't feel
great about now) a 32 year involvement in education does drive one. .

After so many years of fighting for education resources, in every way
I can, it's a difficult habit to break. By all means, whinge-on my friend,
but please just logically support your arguments, and i will also. Fair?

Cheers Richard
Stephen Loosley
Victoria, Australia   


-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.1/640 - Release Date: 19/01/2007 4:46 PM


From kauer at biplane.com.au  Sat Jan 20 22:08:50 2007
From: kauer at biplane.com.au (Karl Auer)
Date: Sat Jan 20 22:09:11 2007
Subject: [LINK] Solar cells
In-Reply-To: <45B1EEBB.3010009@aarnet.edu.au>
References: <C1D79BC5.6C2%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<1169268954.5841.325.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<45B1EEBB.3010009@aarnet.edu.au>
Message-ID: <1169291330.6586.10.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 20:58 +1030, Glen Turner wrote:
> Glad to hear it is working well.

Well, we makin' power, but it goin' nowhere - because Country Energy has
yet to connect the grid. But it is working *in principle* :-)

> Computing, and networking in particular, is front and centre when it comes
> to the wasteful use of electricity.  It's the weekend, and yet every
> ethernet switch runs as though it is facing peak load, just so you get
> this e-mail milliseconds earlier.

Yes. We want all our infrastructure to be always-on. We want 24/7
supermarkets and petrol stations, 24/7 help desks. We complain if the
power is out for one single minute, let alone an hour. We buy
televisions and stereos with standby modes so that we won't have to wait
ten seconds when we switch them on.

Is a puzzlement.

Regards, K.

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/~kauer/                  +61-428-957160 (mob)

From link at todd.inoz.com  Sat Jan 20 23:28:48 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Sat Jan 20 23:29:36 2007
Subject: [LINK] Analogue TV frequencies not just used for TV, so
	spanner in works of spectrum sale
In-Reply-To: <45B1F05F.7020107@aarnet.edu.au>
References: <45B1F05F.7020107@aarnet.edu.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070120232126.0314e920@wheresmymailserver.com>

At 09:35 PM 20/01/2007, Glen Turner wrote:

>Something to watch for here in a few years?

Nope.

>Ofcom is consulting on a proposal to sell the frequencies currently
>used by analogue TV when the grand switch over to digital starts in
>2008. But lurking among the TV channels are hundreds of wireless
>microphones and communications equipment used by the entertainment
>industry, using short-term licenses allocated by the Joint Frequency
>Management Group (JFMG) at, relatively, low cost.
>
>Reader DT summed it up nicely...
>
>     Can you imagine Cats being done with cabled mics, or Starlite
>     Express, or Les Mis, or The Lion King? I can't. I did see
>     Superstar in the west end during the 70s and marvelled that no-one
>     got tripped up or tied up in the myriad number of cables that
>     snaked constantly about the stage.

We already use the 800 Mhz band, it's not in jeopardy.

>But it's not just musical theatre that will suffer, as Fletcher
>Fletchowicz points out...
>
>     Regarding the sellout of radio frequencies and complaints of
>     theatre types: channel 69, the part of the spectrum allocated for
>     radio mics, is also used by film and television crews. So as well
>     as no more theatre you'll be facing no more Bill, no more
>     Hollyoaks, no more Dr Who, and no more quality UK production
>     anywhere.

Nope, we're not allowed to use that.  Actually all the VHF frequencies were 
made illegal about 6 years ago.  There was a 4 year "transition" period 
permitted because of the value of some of the equipment.

However you can buy these kits on Ebay for $10 :)  Why is beyond me, the 
noise on the band with cross talk and adjacent streaming data makes it 
unviable - in Australia anyway.

We Film and TV crews are using a limited about of 800 Mhz kit for wireless 
mic, some analog but a growing amount of digital.

Many are now moving to the 2.4 Gig and the 5 Gig bands.

Anyone sending video is using 20 and 30 Gig bands and doing it in digital

>...and no more Big Brother. Channel 69 may get a stay of execution as
>an unregulated channel, but without any guarantee of quality you might
>miss the latest racist slur. But it's not all good news. As John

We have Channel 31.  They need only apply for a digital licence :)  But as 
the politics within Channel 31 in most cities is worse than that of 
Parliament House during Question time, I doubt it will happen sooner than 
later.

Mind you, if these "broadcasters" were serious, they'd save up the $20,000 
for their own TX kit and stop leasing one for $250,000 a year.  <sigh>

>to do. With an individual microphone rig costing up to ?10,000 it's
>unsurprising they've started renting kit from abroad rather than

My goodness, that must be like 30 RX sets!

>investing in such an uncertain future.

Actually a lot of the new stuff have removable RF boards, plug and pray :)

>     I and several of my friends have used these systems since they
>     came out about two years ago. They work incredibly well, even in
>     areas with lots of interference and 2.4 GHz AirPort
>     systems. Although I don't have personal experience using 50 or
>     more channels, others do; these systems can work with up to about
>     100 channels.

You couldn't do that in Australia.  And god know why anyone would be 
running 100 channels of microphones!  No human could distinguish the sounds!

>According to the professionals, such digital systems are still not
>suitable for commercial use - not only do they lack the quality needed
>for theatre, they also introduce an unacceptable latency. The Sabine
>system also uses 2.4GHz, where competition from Wi-Fi, Bluetooth and
>even microwave ovens makes guaranteeing quality of service very
>difficult.

Rubbish.  I use 2.4 Gig for three channels of Audio/Video feed, a number of 
wireless Mics and even as repeaters!  Never had a problem.

Even with WiFi and Bluetooth running around the place.

Mind you the RX modules are totally whipped out when someone (like me) hits 
the TX button on a 477 Mhz two way radio :)



From kauer at biplane.com.au  Sun Jan 21 00:06:19 2007
From: kauer at biplane.com.au (Karl Auer)
Date: Sun Jan 21 00:06:45 2007
Subject: [LINK] Analogue TV frequencies not just used for TV, so
	spanner in works of spectrum sale
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20070120232126.0314e920@wheresmymailserver.com>
References: <45B1F05F.7020107@aarnet.edu.au>
	<6.2.0.14.0.20070120232126.0314e920@wheresmymailserver.com>
Message-ID: <1169298379.6586.70.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 23:28 +1100, Adam Todd wrote:
> >     systems. Although I don't have personal experience using 50 or
> >     more channels, others do; these systems can work with up to about
> >     100 channels.
> 
> You couldn't do that in Australia.  And god know why anyone would be 
> running 100 channels of microphones!  No human could distinguish the sounds!

I think it means channels within the band. Much as you have 11 or so
channels within the 2.4GHz wireless networking band. Wlakie-talkies
often channel hop within the their band to avoid interference. MOdems
(remember modems?) used to channel switch to find the best-quality link
within the band.

Even if it does mean 100 separate feeds, who says they are all going to
the same human ears? It could be multiple destinations. Or think the
entire cast of Cats, each separately miked. Or two or more simultanoeus
productions within the same building.

This, like much of your message, it looks a lot like the Argument from
Personal Ignorance. "I have never had a problem doing what I do, which
is vaguely like what you do, using equipment vaguely like your
equipment, under conditions vaguely like yours, and I have never had a
problem, ergo, you are wrong".

K.

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/~kauer/                  +61-428-957160 (mob)

From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au  Sun Jan 21 09:17:18 2007
From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au)
Date: Sun Jan 21 09:17:15 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070120211800.021c5008@melbpc.org.au>
References: <200701150953.l0F9pS4t021272@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
	<C1D259E3.692%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<20070118223244.54A5526437@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070119224047.01efbe90@melbpc.org.au>
	<45B155C6.1020303@ozemail.com.au>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070120211800.021c5008@melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <45B294EE.1010305@ozemail.com.au>

Stephen Loosley wrote:

>At 10:35 AM 20/01/2007, Richard writes:
>
>  
>
>>The OLPC is driven by fine sentiments and laudable enthusiasm.
>>So what is the sin in asking these questions? 
>>    
>>
>
>If that were all, then, great ... it's comments like in your last post that
>I must say get me down regarding a philanthropic education initiative.
>
>Eg: > "The entire scheme is wonderful publicity and that's *all*. "
>
>Which, to me, is unfair and beneath you, Richard. Still, I must admit
>that, though after ten years Link of membership I believe my posting
>re this was my first 'emotional' type response (and which I don't feel
>great about now) a 32 year involvement in education does drive one. .
>
>After so many years of fighting for education resources, in every way
>I can, it's a difficult habit to break. By all means, whinge-on my friend,
>but please just logically support your arguments, and i will also. Fair?
>  
>
Sure.

Refer my now most-recent post: where is there evidence-based research, 
rather than advocacy, which says computers are the best investment in 
primary and high-school education? The Indian response to OLPC - 
"demagogically suspect" I think? - sums it up.

The computer industry has worked very hard over more than two decades to 
market into education, and in doing so has built a pretty much universal 
belief in the necessity of computers in classrooms. But where's the 
longitudinal studies, say, which demonstrate the efficacy of classroom 
computers as a teaching instrument? What tells us that children now are 
better educated than even ten years ago because there are more 
computers? Where's the genuinely independent evidence which eliminates 
mere correlation (ie, a more prosperous society has both better 
education *and* more computers)?

Without this evidence, OLPC as educational philanthropy is vulnerable to 
the simple (and I think correct) criticism that it's simply the wrong 
answer to the question - it's an answer shaped by IT ideology rather 
than educational science. That vulnerability should be answered; and IMO 
the answer needs to be founded on more than fine sentiment.

As to my cricitism that the OLPC is a good publicity device: hasn't it been?

Cheers,
RC

>Cheers Richard
>Stephen Loosley
>Victoria, Australia   
>
>
>  
>
From alan at austlii.edu.au  Sun Jan 21 09:57:13 2007
From: alan at austlii.edu.au (Alan L Tyree)
Date: Sun Jan 21 09:58:41 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <45B294EE.1010305@ozemail.com.au>
References: <200701150953.l0F9pS4t021272@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
	<C1D259E3.692%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<20070118223244.54A5526437@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070119224047.01efbe90@melbpc.org.au>
	<45B155C6.1020303@ozemail.com.au>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070120211800.021c5008@melbpc.org.au>
	<45B294EE.1010305@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070121095713.89613413.alan@austlii.edu.au>

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 09:17:18 +1100
<SNIP>
> 
> Refer my now most-recent post: where is there evidence-based
> research, rather than advocacy, which says computers are the best
> investment in primary and high-school education? The Indian response
> to OLPC - "demagogically suspect" I think? - sums it up.
> 
> The computer industry has worked very hard over more than two decades
> to market into education, and in doing so has built a pretty much
> universal belief in the necessity of computers in classrooms. But
> where's the longitudinal studies, say, which demonstrate the efficacy
> of classroom computers as a teaching instrument? What tells us that
> children now are better educated than even ten years ago because
> there are more computers? Where's the genuinely independent evidence
> which eliminates mere correlation (ie, a more prosperous society has
> both better education *and* more computers)?
> 
<SNIP>

Well, yes and no. The real evidence, and it is extremely interesting,
begins with a study by Dubin and Taveggia in 1968 "The
Teaching-Learning Praradox", Center for the Advanced Study of
Educational Administration, University of Oregon, 1968.

Their study, repeated a number of times since, showed conclusively that
there is no measurable difference among distinctive methods of
university instruction. Lectures, small group teaching, "Socratic",
self-study, you-name-it: the method of teaching and delivery simply
made no measurable differences.

You can read a nice summary and analysis of the situation at
http://www.nettskolen.com/forskning/50/Jointarticle3.html

After their bombshell, several methods of teaching WERE shown to have a
measurable effect, but the methods were independent of delivery
methods: I am referring to the Keller Plan and various forms of
"Mastery" learning.

The Point? Computers *can* be an effective delivery platform. A $100
computer *could* deliver much more educational material than a similar
amount spent on books or on real teachers.

Caveat: Dubin and Taveggia were talking about university level
education. I am no expert on child education, and I don't know what
level the OLPC is aiming at.

As an aside, it is very disappointing that university staff generally
do not believe that any of the above applies to their discipline. 

Cheers,
Alan

-- 
Alan L Tyree                    http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel: +61 2 4782 2670            Mobile: +61 427 486 206
Fax: +61 2 4782 7092            FWD: 615662
From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Sun Jan 21 10:15:29 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Sun Jan 21 10:18:26 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <45B294EE.1010305@ozemail.com.au>
References: <200701150953.l0F9pS4t021272@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
	<C1D259E3.692%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<20070118223244.54A5526437@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070119224047.01efbe90@melbpc.org.au>
	<45B155C6.1020303@ozemail.com.au>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070120211800.021c5008@melbpc.org.au>
	<45B294EE.1010305@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <5ii197$26mll7@ipmail02.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 09:17 AM 21/01/2007, rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote:
>Without this evidence, OLPC as educational philanthropy is 
>vulnerable to the simple (and I think correct) criticism that it's 
>simply the wrong answer to the question - it's an answer shaped by 
>IT ideology rather than educational science. That vulnerability 
>should be answered; and IMO the answer needs to be founded on more 
>than fine sentiment.

Hi guys. Interesting discussion from varying backgrounds. Isn't the 
answer contextual (re the point at which the computers will be 
introduced into 'educational systems'), what they'll be used for, and 
the details of what they include in their own package? I think it's a 
very complex situation, as Danny pointed out when any externals are 
brought in out of a desire to do good things sometimes resulting in 
the exact opposite outcome and doing more damage than good. The 
objective must be determined in advance, not just the method. 
Evaluation needs to be part of this project - and different kinds of 
evaluation: formative, summative, outcomes and longitudinal. I wonder 
if they've put that in their $100/seat figures?

Richard asked about research to "demonstrate the efficacy of 
classroom computers as a teaching instrument". Too blunt, too broad. 
As a 'teaching instrument' for what? At what level of education? For 
what population of students? If I took a little time in the 
literature, I could probably find all kinds of studies to support a 
hypothesis of positive outcomes. (I'm not going to, though.) There 
are probably fewer reports of failures, though. Doesn't mean there 
aren't failures, just that they're less likely to be reported.

Having said all that, if the work does result in cheaper computers 
for everyone, that's a good thing in itself. We've already seen huge 
drops, so more in that direction is much appreciated. But I hope they 
don't confuse the drop in the cost of the computer with a drop in 
'cost of ownership'.

Jan


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From eleanor at pacific.net.au  Sun Jan 21 10:26:33 2007
From: eleanor at pacific.net.au (Eleanor Lister)
Date: Sun Jan 21 10:26:45 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <45B294EE.1010305@ozemail.com.au>
References: <200701150953.l0F9pS4t021272@anumail0.anu.edu.au>	<C1D259E3.692%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>	<20070118223244.54A5526437@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com>	<7.0.1.0.0.20070119224047.01efbe90@melbpc.org.au>	<45B155C6.1020303@ozemail.com.au>	<7.0.1.0.0.20070120211800.021c5008@melbpc.org.au>
	<45B294EE.1010305@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <45B2A529.8050609@pacific.net.au>

i would argue that all this debate, and even the publicity pushing the
OLPC, is taking the eye off the ball.

the issue is much more basic; the geeks believe that connectivity is the
answer to almost everything, the mere fact of a global communications
arena that even the poorest can link to will materially assist all
societies.

in their favour are some interesting facts, e.g; the civil war in
Cambodia closed down (15 years ago? i disremember) almost as soon as
radiotelephone links were installed across the country, and all parties
could talk, which dispelled fear, after which the UN had a relatively
easy time of it, and they are now a corrupt democratic dictatorship like
everyone else.

and OLPC is communications on steroids for the poor.

so what could be wrong with this idea?

well, nothing, if you really want the fully electronic world with
everyone merely a keystroke away ... but perhaps some communities may
not welcome this unambiguously.

so some kid in a mud hut ignores the customs, ceremonies and obligations
required by the community in which s/he lives, thus damaging them and
the chances of survival for the village ... but has an awesome avatar in
Second Life :(

get these kids a First Life, first, then worry about online activities.

regards,
    EL

rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au wrote:
> Stephen Loosley wrote:
>
>> At 10:35 AM 20/01/2007, Richard writes:
>>
>>  
>>
>>> The OLPC is driven by fine sentiments and laudable enthusiasm.
>>> So what is the sin in asking these questions?   
>>
>> If that were all, then, great ... it's comments like in your last
>> post that
>> I must say get me down regarding a philanthropic education initiative.
>>
>> Eg: > "The entire scheme is wonderful publicity and that's *all*. "
>>
>> Which, to me, is unfair and beneath you, Richard. Still, I must admit
>> that, though after ten years Link of membership I believe my posting
>> re this was my first 'emotional' type response (and which I don't feel
>> great about now) a 32 year involvement in education does drive one. .
>>
>> After so many years of fighting for education resources, in every way
>> I can, it's a difficult habit to break. By all means, whinge-on my
>> friend,
>> but please just logically support your arguments, and i will also. Fair?
>>  
>>
> Sure.
>
> Refer my now most-recent post: where is there evidence-based research,
> rather than advocacy, which says computers are the best investment in
> primary and high-school education? The Indian response to OLPC -
> "demagogically suspect" I think? - sums it up.
>
> The computer industry has worked very hard over more than two decades
> to market into education, and in doing so has built a pretty much
> universal belief in the necessity of computers in classrooms. But
> where's the longitudinal studies, say, which demonstrate the efficacy
> of classroom computers as a teaching instrument? What tells us that
> children now are better educated than even ten years ago because there
> are more computers? Where's the genuinely independent evidence which
> eliminates mere correlation (ie, a more prosperous society has both
> better education *and* more computers)?
>
> Without this evidence, OLPC as educational philanthropy is vulnerable
> to the simple (and I think correct) criticism that it's simply the
> wrong answer to the question - it's an answer shaped by IT ideology
> rather than educational science. That vulnerability should be
> answered; and IMO the answer needs to be founded on more than fine
> sentiment.
>
> As to my cricitism that the OLPC is a good publicity device: hasn't it
> been?
>
> Cheers,
> RC
>
>> Cheers Richard
>> Stephen Loosley
>> Victoria, Australia  


-- 
------------
Eleanor Ashley Lister
South Sydney Greens
http://ssg.nsw.greens.org.au
webmistress@ssg.nsw.greens.org.au

From david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au  Sun Jan 21 16:34:39 2007
From: david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au (David Boxall)
Date: Sun Jan 21 16:35:07 2007
Subject: [LINK] CLEAN (SCORE=27.12) - European Commission study: FLOSS is
	key for ICT competitiveness
Message-ID: <45B2FB6F.50303@hunterlink.net.au>

<http://www.merit.unu.edu/publications/pressreleases/200701_flossimpact.pdf>

"The European Commission has released a study about the economic impact 
of Free/Libre or Open
Source Software (FLOSS) on the European ICT sector."


-- 
David Boxall                    |  Any given program,
                                 |  when running correctly,
                                 |  is obsolete.
                                 |       --Arthur C. Clarke
From david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au  Sun Jan 21 16:41:50 2007
From: david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au (David Boxall)
Date: Sun Jan 21 16:42:17 2007
Subject: [LINK] CLEAN (SCORE=23.07)  - I'm sure we'll find uses for it
Message-ID: <45B2FD1E.3090301@hunterlink.net.au>

Maybe 8 cores:
<http://www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=196901615&cid=RSSfeed_IWK_All>, 
then 80 cores:
<http://www.eetimes.com/news/semi/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=196901229> 
and the software to go with it:
<http://www.itnews.com.au/newsstory.aspx?CIaNID=44568&eid=1&edate=20070119>.

-- 
David Boxall                    |  When a distinguished but elderly
                                 |  scientist states that something is
                                 |  possible, he is almost certainly
                                 |  right. When he states that
                                 |  something is impossible, he is
                                 |  very probably wrong.
                                                   --Arthur C. Clarke
From david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au  Sun Jan 21 17:56:48 2007
From: david.boxall at hunterlink.net.au (David Boxall)
Date: Sun Jan 21 17:58:13 2007
Subject: [LINK] POSSIBLE SPAM (SCORE=35.84) - Despite 100 Million IE 7
	Installs, Microsoft's Browser Still Loses Ground
Message-ID: <45B30EB0.4030205@hunterlink.net.au>

<http://www.informationweek.com/internet/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=196901142> 


"Maybe Microsoft's met its match with Firefox. Maybe it just can't 
compete against open-source and the whole world [as developers]."

-- 
David Boxall                    |  Drink no longer water,
                                |  but use a little wine
                                |  for thy stomach's sake ...
                                |            King James Bible
                                |              1 Timothy 5:23


From stephen at melbpc.org.au  Mon Jan 22 01:56:16 2007
From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (Stephen Loosley)
Date: Mon Jan 22 01:56:53 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <45B294EE.1010305@ozemail.com.au>
References: <200701150953.l0F9pS4t021272@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
	<C1D259E3.692%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<20070118223244.54A5526437@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070119224047.01efbe90@melbpc.org.au>
	<45B155C6.1020303@ozemail.com.au>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070120211800.021c5008@melbpc.org.au>
	<45B294EE.1010305@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070122001636.021d0ca8@melbpc.org.au>

At 09:17 AM 21/01/2007, Richard writes:

> The Indian response to OLPC - "demagogically suspect" I think?

Yes, and good on them for that. India is quite rightly proud of it's own 
IT-expertise.  Maybe they will come up with their own modular-based,
open-source *physical* as well as software design in future? Good :-)

> it's an answer shaped by IT ideology rather than educational science

Regarding edu research I'll do a Stewart and take the third on that one.

But, how about this? With the solid OLPC distribution system they will
no-doubt be setting up, Australia could offer an additional pallet of lined
A4 paper, pencils, dictionaries and atlases. Even ambitiously, chalk :-)

And that, with some times-tables and language charts in the language
(together with an OLPC) could turn out many a future Oxford graduate.

At 10:26 AM 21/01/2007, Eleanor writes:

> i would argue that all this debate, and even the publicity pushing
> the OLPC, is taking the eye off the ball.

Yes, in a right-wing-world, the disadvantaged need to remain a focus.
That means communities. Objective research still has real problems
nailing down final-answers regarding education, IT and learning. True.
But consider the community assistance available with this one email.

--
Please find below, details of (some) SEN and Inclusion mailing lists
that are supported by Becta. These may be of interest to you or your
colleagues.

Children with medical needs
This email list provides a forum to share questions and answers on
issues and concerns relating to the education of learners with medical
conditions. It is intended to support professionals in their delivery of
education to learners in hospital, at home, in an off-site unit or at a
mainstream school.
http://lists.becta.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/cmn.net


Distance Learning
The group's aim is to share good practice and information in developing
distance learning for pupils not in school.
http://lists.becta.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/distance-learning


Digitalmedia
The Digital Media Community is an e-mail based discussion group for you 
to use to share your experiences, hints and tips in using all types of 
digital media.
http://lists.becta.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/digitalmedia


Eal-bilingual 
This forum is for teachers of English as an additional language,
specialist classroom assistants and others involved in teaching and
supporting pupils from ethnic and linguistic minority backgrounds.
http://lists.becta.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/eal-bilingual


Topteachers
This forum is for teachers and others involved or interested in promoting 
the effective use of ICT in the classroom. It has been set up to provide
* an opportunity to discuss issues relating to teaching and learning in 
schools. 
* peer to peer support and access to the shared knowledge and experience 
of the community. 
* instant access to colleagues some of who may have similar concerns. 
* opportunity to exchange different professional views and opinions. 
* access to expertise and up-to-date information.
http://lists.becta.org.uk/pipermail/topteachers/


Speech and language difficulties (easyspeak) This forum is open to
anyone with an interest in children's language and communication
difficulties, and how they are supported.
http://lists.becta.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/easyspeak


EBD forum (ebd-forum)
EBD forum is a UK based discussion forum for the discussion of issues
relating to the education of pupils with emotional and behavioural
difficulties.
http://lists.becta.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/ebd-forum


High Ability (high-ability)
This high-ability mailing list has been set up for discussing issues
relating to the education of able children.
http://lists.becta.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/high-ability


Northern Ireland special educational needs (ni-sen) This list aims to
develop a NI Learning Support / Special Needs community network with a
free exchange of ideas and mutual support.
http://lists.becta.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/ni-sen


Physical Disability network (pd-net)
The physical disability network is an email list for professionals
involved in the education of children with physical and neurological
disabilities and complex medical needs.
http://lists.becta.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/pd-net


SENCO forum (senco-forum)
This email list is for Special Needs Co-ordinators, those in local
authority services and others involved in supporting pupils with special
educational needs.
http://lists.becta.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/senco-forum


Special educational needs and ICT (senit) The SENIT email list is for
teachers, advisers and others working within education to share
practical advice about how ICT can be used to support pupils with
learning difficulties or disabilities.
http://lists.becta.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/senit


Severe learning difficulties forum (sld-forum) A forum for professionals
involved in the education of learners with severe, profound and multiple
learning difficulties.
http://lists.becta.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/sld-forum


Teachers of the deaf (ToD)
This list is for Teachers of the Deaf and associated professionals
involved in teaching deaf learners in schools, resource centres and
services.
http://lists.becta.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/tod


Traveller Education (trav-ed)
This forum is for practitioners with an interest in Traveller education
who wish to share ideas and practical advice.
http://lists.becta.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/trav-ed


Visual impairment forum (vi-forum)
This is an area for discussing issues relating to the teaching of
students with visual impairments.
http://lists.becta.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/vi-forum


If I can be of any further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact
me directly.

Regards,
Jason

---
Jason Douglas
Online Communities Officer
British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta)
Millburn Hill Road Science Park
Coventry
CV4 7JJ
--

Cheers Richard
Stephen Loosley
Victoria, Australia





-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.3/642 - Release Date: 20/01/2007 10:31 PM


From kim at holburn.net  Mon Jan 22 07:15:44 2007
From: kim at holburn.net (Kim Holburn)
Date: Mon Jan 22 07:16:10 2007
Subject: [LINK] throw-away culture
Message-ID: <08DCA634-517A-443A-90B2-F811D54C9A3D@holburn.net>

Very interesting article about designing for sustainable use.  I have  
said before on link that one answer to the land-fill problem is to  
put a disposal tax on things that need disposing.  It seems it's  
already happening and will increase.

Designing things - appliances that last - needs a different economic  
approach - along the lines of a service rather than a product.

 From issue 2585 of New Scientist magazine, 04 January 2007, page 31-35
Better by design: battling the throwaway culture (requires  
subscription to read on-line)
http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/mg19325851.000- 
better-by-design-battling-the-throwaway-culture.html

> Americans use and throw away 2.5 million plastic bottles an hour.  
> The British produce enough garbage to fill the Albert Hall every 2  
> hours. According to the authors of Natural Capitalism, Paul Hawken,  
> Amory Lovins and Hunter Lovins, only 1 per cent of all materials  
> flowing through the US economy ends up in products still being used  
> six months after manufacture. The waste entailed in our fleeting  
> affairs with consumer durables is colossal.

> Take the average domestic power tool. However much DIY we plan on  
> doing, the truth is we throw these away after using them, on  
> average, for just 10 minutes. Most will serve "conscience time",  
> gathering dust on a shelf in the garage, but the end is inevitable:  
> thousands of years mouldering underground. A power tool consumes  
> many times its own weight of resources in its design, manufacture,  
> packaging, transportation and disposal, all for a shorter active  
> lifespan than that of the adult mayfly.

> On the day you read this the same volume of trade will take place  
> as occurred in the whole of 1949. We now make as many phone calls  
> in a day as were made in the whole of 1983. The information age was  
> supposed to lighten our economies and reduce our impact on the  
> environment, but in fact the reverse seems to be happening. We have  
> simply added information technology to the industrial era and  
> speeded up the developed world's metabolism, Thackara argues.
>
> Once you grasp that, the cure is hardly rocket science: minimise  
> waste and energy use, stop moving stuff around so much and use  
> people more. Achieving this is not so easy, however. Growing  
> numbers of people may be choosing to opt out by downsizing or  
> embracing the ideology of the "slow movement", which seeks to  
> reverse the frenetic pace of living, but a return to pre-industrial  
> ways will never be a global solution. "We cannot stop tech,"  
> Thackara says, "and there's no reason why we should. It's useful.  
> But we need to change the innovation agenda in such a way that  
> people come before tech."

> Consumer durables will increasingly be sold with plans already in  
> place for their disposal - electronic goods will be designed to be  
> recyclable, with the extra cost added onto the retail price as  
> prepayment

> Japan is WEEEcycling
>
> In 2001, a critical shortage of landfill sites forced the Japanese  
> government to pass a law adding the cost of recycling home  
> appliances to the retail price. This gave manufacturers guaranteed  
> revenue to invest in recycling plants. In 2004, 540,000 Sony  
> televisions were recycled at the company's 15 recycling centres.  
> With over 80 per cent of Japan's TVs now being recycled, the  
> initiative has easily outperformed government targets.
>
> Another bill passed in the same year enshrines the principles of  
> "reduce, reuse and recycle" for a whole swathe of consumer items.  
> Computer manufacturers, for example, are now obliged to take back  
> and recycle obsolete computers - users can have them collected or  
> drop them off at post offices. A mark stamped on the computer  
> indicates that recycling costs have been prepaid; otherwise  
> consumers foot the bill. In 2004, Toshiba took back 5343 desktop  
> PCs and 9568 laptops.
>
> Worldwide, discarded computers, mobile phones and electronic  
> gadgets now account for 5 per cent of waste, according to the UN  
> Environment Programme. In the US, between 14 and 20 million PCs are  
> dumped each year. Electrical waste is the fastest-growing category  
> in Europe, with the UK alone producing 1 million tonnes a year.
>
> The European Union has not been nearly as successful as Japan at  
> dealing with the problem, though. In 2003 its directive on the  
> recycling of waste electrical and electronic equipment (WEEE)  
> became law, requiring producers in member countries to take  
> responsibility for recycling and waste management, and for  
> retailers to offer take-back services. However, member states have  
> dragged their feet in implementing the directive, and this July the  
> UK will become the last major EU country to comply.
>
> In the meantime, Japanese companies are starting to profit from  
> having had to think carefully about designing more sustainable  
> products, and are now exporting their expertise around the world  
> through their subsidiaries. In 2005 Matsushita, owner of Panasonic,  
> established Ecology Net Europe in Germany, a subsidiary aimed at  
> capitalising on Europe's move to WEEE recycling. It sends employees  
> to European recycling companies to advise on the feasibility and  
> ease of disassembling various electrical appliances. Back in Japan,  
> Hitachi and Toshiba are developing "design for disassembly"  
> software to help create recyclable products, and Sharp has even  
> achieved automated disassembly for some basic items, including  
> battery chargers.


--
Kim Holburn
IT Network & Security Consultant
Ph: +39 06 855 4294  M: +39 3342707610
mailto:kim@holburn.net  aim://kimholburn
skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request

Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny.
                           -- Lloyd Biggle, Jr. Analog, Apr 1961



From kim.holburn at gmail.com  Mon Jan 22 08:29:45 2007
From: kim.holburn at gmail.com (Kim Holburn)
Date: Mon Jan 22 08:30:08 2007
Subject: [LINK] throw-away culture
Message-ID: <206F7362-5740-448B-B2AC-2802B8D57607@gmail.com>

Very interesting article about designing for sustainable use.  I have  
said before on link that one answer to the land-fill problem is to  
put a disposal tax on things that need disposing.  It seems it's  
already happening and will increase.

Designing things - appliances that last - needs a different economic  
approach - along the lines of a service rather than a product.

 From issue 2585 of New Scientist magazine, 04 January 2007, page 31-35
Better by design: battling the throwaway culture (requires  
subscription to read on-line)
http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/mg19325851.000- 
better-by-design-battling-the-throwaway-culture.html

> Americans use and throw away 2.5 million plastic bottles an hour.  
> The British produce enough garbage to fill the Albert Hall every 2  
> hours. According to the authors of Natural Capitalism, Paul Hawken,  
> Amory Lovins and Hunter Lovins, only 1 per cent of all materials  
> flowing through the US economy ends up in products still being used  
> six months after manufacture. The waste entailed in our fleeting  
> affairs with consumer durables is colossal.

> Take the average domestic power tool. However much DIY we plan on  
> doing, the truth is we throw these away after using them, on  
> average, for just 10 minutes. Most will serve "conscience time",  
> gathering dust on a shelf in the garage, but the end is inevitable:  
> thousands of years mouldering underground. A power tool consumes  
> many times its own weight of resources in its design, manufacture,  
> packaging, transportation and disposal, all for a shorter active  
> lifespan than that of the adult mayfly.

> On the day you read this the same volume of trade will take place  
> as occurred in the whole of 1949. We now make as many phone calls  
> in a day as were made in the whole of 1983. The information age was  
> supposed to lighten our economies and reduce our impact on the  
> environment, but in fact the reverse seems to be happening. We have  
> simply added information technology to the industrial era and  
> speeded up the developed world's metabolism, Thackara argues.
>
> Once you grasp that, the cure is hardly rocket science: minimise  
> waste and energy use, stop moving stuff around so much and use  
> people more. Achieving this is not so easy, however. Growing  
> numbers of people may be choosing to opt out by downsizing or  
> embracing the ideology of the "slow movement", which seeks to  
> reverse the frenetic pace of living, but a return to pre-industrial  
> ways will never be a global solution. "We cannot stop tech,"  
> Thackara says, "and there's no reason why we should. It's useful.  
> But we need to change the innovation agenda in such a way that  
> people come before tech."

> Consumer durables will increasingly be sold with plans already in  
> place for their disposal - electronic goods will be designed to be  
> recyclable, with the extra cost added onto the retail price as  
> prepayment

> Japan is WEEEcycling
>
> In 2001, a critical shortage of landfill sites forced the Japanese  
> government to pass a law adding the cost of recycling home  
> appliances to the retail price. This gave manufacturers guaranteed  
> revenue to invest in recycling plants. In 2004, 540,000 Sony  
> televisions were recycled at the company's 15 recycling centres.  
> With over 80 per cent of Japan's TVs now being recycled, the  
> initiative has easily outperformed government targets.
>
> Another bill passed in the same year enshrines the principles of  
> "reduce, reuse and recycle" for a whole swathe of consumer items.  
> Computer manufacturers, for example, are now obliged to take back  
> and recycle obsolete computers - users can have them collected or  
> drop them off at post offices. A mark stamped on the computer  
> indicates that recycling costs have been prepaid; otherwise  
> consumers foot the bill. In 2004, Toshiba took back 5343 desktop  
> PCs and 9568 laptops.
>
> Worldwide, discarded computers, mobile phones and electronic  
> gadgets now account for 5 per cent of waste, according to the UN  
> Environment Programme. In the US, between 14 and 20 million PCs are  
> dumped each year. Electrical waste is the fastest-growing category  
> in Europe, with the UK alone producing 1 million tonnes a year.
>
> The European Union has not been nearly as successful as Japan at  
> dealing with the problem, though. In 2003 its directive on the  
> recycling of waste electrical and electronic equipment (WEEE)  
> became law, requiring producers in member countries to take  
> responsibility for recycling and waste management, and for  
> retailers to offer take-back services. However, member states have  
> dragged their feet in implementing the directive, and this July the  
> UK will become the last major EU country to comply.
>
> In the meantime, Japanese companies are starting to profit from  
> having had to think carefully about designing more sustainable  
> products, and are now exporting their expertise around the world  
> through their subsidiaries. In 2005 Matsushita, owner of Panasonic,  
> established Ecology Net Europe in Germany, a subsidiary aimed at  
> capitalising on Europe's move to WEEE recycling. It sends employees  
> to European recycling companies to advise on the feasibility and  
> ease of disassembling various electrical appliances. Back in Japan,  
> Hitachi and Toshiba are developing "design for disassembly"  
> software to help create recyclable products, and Sharp has even  
> achieved automated disassembly for some basic items, including  
> battery chargers.


--
Kim Holburn
IT Network & Security Consultant
Ph: +39 06 855 4294  M: +39 3342707610
mailto:kim@holburn.net  aim://kimholburn
skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request

Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny.
                           -- Lloyd Biggle, Jr. Analog, Apr 1961



From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au  Sun Jan 21 16:13:43 2007
From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington)
Date: Mon Jan 22 08:57:46 2007
Subject: [LINK] Re: Australian Government Web Accessibility Audit Findings, 
 Canberra, 18 January 2007
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070108163523.01b88578@tomw.net.au>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070108163523.01b88578@tomw.net.au>
Message-ID: <20070121215726.6A2659939@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com>

At 04:40 PM 1/8/2007, I wrote:
>Recommended:
>
>>Seventh Canberra WSG meeting ... 18 January ...

This was an excellent meeting, as is usual for the Web Standard 
Group. These are some notes taken during the presentations:

>>First speaker: Alexi Paschalidis, Oxide Interactive Topic 1: Navy 
>>web site redevelopment ...

Alex gave a passionate exposition on how to redevelop a web site 
using web standards, the battle against those who just see the web as 
a form of graphic design and the wishes of "corporate" for something 
flashy and fleeting.

The Royal Australian Navy were one of the pioneers of web development 
in the Australian Government. They had developed a web site of their 
own <http://www.navy.gov.au/> before I initiated the project to 
create the Defence Home Page 
<http://www.tomw.net.au/papers/bpt.html>. The Navy seem to have 
maintained their independent tradition with their own web site, 
working alongside Defence's central site and Defence Recruiting.

A feature of the Navy site redevelopment is semantic consistency. 
They are using Semantic XHTML with structural consistency; for 
example a second level heading <h2> always has a first level heading 
above it <h1>.

Images are important for the Navy, as might be expected with photos 
of ships. But Alexi pointed out that photos of people are actually 
more popular than those of equipment.

The Navy web site is relatively modest, with 2,500 static web pages 
and 4,000 visitors a day (my web site gets about 1,000). Because of 
the use of centralized maintenance there is no need for a CMS and the 
staff code directly in HTML without the use of a web layout package.

Alexi argues that using Semantic XHTML (as emphasized in XHTML 2.0 ) 
cuts out many day to day design decisions is creating web pages. 
Clearly he saw this as a positive feature (whereas some of the 
creative types might see it as a negative). Some of the metadata for 
the web pages can be inserted automatically from the content (for 
example the TITLE from the H2 heading). There is minimal layout in 
the HTML code, with this done in the CSS.

In place of the usual web development tools, the open-source revision 
control system is used <http://subversion.tigris.org/>. This is 
usually used by computer program developers to maintain multiple 
versions of complex systems, but has been used for document editing, 
but is also used in the ICE educational document creation system 
<http://ptsefton.com/blog/2006/03/09/ice:_agile_publishing_(with_a_long_snout)>. 
This allows for smart change control of the web site with detection 
of conflicts between different updates.

Because the Navy have an emphasis on photography, the Navy site has a 
special system for collecting the professional take photos and 
uploading them to the web site. The system creates versions in 
multiple resolutions and maintains the metadata from the originals.

Interestingly the Navy use Google, rather than their own search 
software. They use the Google Public Service Search program 
<https://services.google.com/pss_faq.html#1>. This provides the 
Google search engine, tailored to the organisation's needs but 
without ads. Given the importance of Google to Australian web sites 
(discussed in a later talk below), this is a reasonable decision. But 
it might be disappointing to Australian web search companies, such as 
Public Service Search program enterprise search companies, such as 
Funnelback <http://funnelback.com/>.

A little AI on the site's feedback form had allowed 80% of queries to 
be answered automatically.

Alexi emphasized the need to educate the customers about the benefits 
of using standards on web sites and the need to be vigilant about the 
danger of  graphic designers being brought in to design web sites. 
This and the frustration with senior executives wanting to make quick 
changes are problems familiar to IT developers.

The Navy has to position its web site with the others of the Defence 
portfolio, principally the central Defence site 
<http://www.defence.gov.au/> and Defence Recruiting 
<http://www.defencejobs.gov.au>. Some might ask why the Navy needs a 
web site at all. However, having one large amorphous web site will 
confuse the clients and lead to expensive extra layers of 
coordination (as the UK Government is likely to find out in the next 
year with its centralist push). An emphasis of Defence's at present 
is recruiting (the Defence department advertise jobs on my web site 
using Google AdSense <http://www.tomw.net.au/technology/it/adsense.shtml>).

The next version of the Navy web site will have the text rewritten 
for the web (rather than just whatever was take from an existing 
source). Consideration will be given to adding commonly used business 
transactions and support for reserve personnel without access to the 
Defence secure network (this was an issue ten years ago when I was at 
Defence HQ).

Some items on the wish list were blog style pages (with moderation) 
for a more personal view of the organisation, tags 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tags> and wiki style text based cross 
references.

Google Analytic is used for analysis of web site use. I have used 
this myself, but with a small site the novelty wears off quickly. If 
you do want Analytics (which is free) it might be quicker to get it 
by singing up for Google AdWords 
<http://www.tomw.net.au/technology/it/adwords.shtml>.

Unfortunately some of Alexi's credibility as a web worker was undone 
when I went to his own web site and found a message saying "... our 
website will be offline from Friday 19 January to Sunday 21 January 
for a complete overhaul ..."<http://www.oxideinteractive.com.au/>. 
Why give a presentation on web site design one day to hundreds of 
potential customers and take your web site off-line the next?

>>Second speaker: Gavin Dispain, Department of the Environment and 
>>Heritage ... 2006 web standards audit of Australian Government home pages ...

During December 2006, Gavin  arranged for 105 Australian Government 
web sites (from AAD to WEA) to be tested for accessibility, 
compliance with web standards, and Australian Government guidelines. 
The results deserved a whole day presentation, not the few minutes available.

Gavan used tools such as the W3C HTML and CSS Validators, Xact's 
Bobby tool to test the sites. In 2001 I did a similar analysis but 
only did one page per agency 
<http://www.tomw.net.au/2001/govtest.html>, whereas Gavan has done up 
to 5,000 pages per agency.

The results showed government web pages are good orverall, but with 
room for improvement:

* 69% had the correct government logo on them. Most used the 48 pixel 
size version. But I wonder what percentage of web traffic is being 
wasted transporting duplicate copies of the Australian Arms 
<http://www.tomw.net.au/2003/epolicy.html#edocs>.

* Only 28% of home pages had an accessibility link (but this is not 
required by the guidelines).

Some hot topics on government web sites were "connected water" 4% and 
"access card" 14.2%, while 28% of all the traffic to government web 
sites was coming from Google. 55% of the Government web pages are in 
HTML, 18% PDF and 1% Microsoft word. Annual reports have 55% PDF 
documents and the Budget 84%.

Home pages contain an average of 17 images and other pages 12 images. 
This is much lower than the industry average of 53 images per page. 
77% of HTML web pages have DTD references. 48% of the HTML is XHTML 
level 1 transitional. Only 27% of the pages are valid HTML, but with 
Gavin commenting most of the errors were only minor.

One site which rated badly was that of CrimTrac 
<http://www.crimtrac.gov.au/>. So I ran a few tests myself. The W3C 
Markup Validation Service reported 120 errors in the CrimTrac home 
page 
<http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fcrimtrac.gov.au%2F>. 
The page has 42 images, which is a little high. There is dublin core 
metadata on the page but not an ordinary author, description or 
keywords. The page failed an automated accessibility test 
<http://webxact.watchfire.com/> with: 66 level one, 31 level two and 
12 level three problems <http://webxact.watchfire.com/>. Also the 
favorites icon <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Favicon> seems to be 
missing 
<<http://www.crimtrac.gov.au/favicon.ico>http://www.crimtrac.gov.au/favicon.ico>. 
In addition CrimTrac's use of the Australian Arms does not appear to 
comply with government guidelines.

In terms of web site accessibility for the disabled, the sites rated 
relatively well on the W3C Web Accessibility Guidelines:

- 78% A
- 10% AA
- 6% AAA

The "A" rating could be improved with simple additions of ALT text on 
images <http://www.tomw.net.au/2003/bws.html>.

71% of home ages were less than 100kbytes (which is good). There were 
100,616 broken internal links on government web pages (which is not 
so good). There were 404 misspellings of "Australia" (which is odd).

Some hot topics were "community water grants", "e-strategy guide". 
Highly rating web sites were BOM, ATO, Job Search and Center Link.

Gavin got a show of hands at the end to indicate that a similar 
survey should be run next year by AGIMO. But I doubt that a more 
official audit will be so entertainingly reported.

>>Third speaker: Karl Hayes, Hitwise Topic 3: Best practice tactics 
>>for government web sites ...
>>... www.webstandardsgroup.org ...

Hitwise provides statistics on who is looking at what web page 
<http://www.hitwise.com/products-services/how-we-do-it.php>. Karl 
provided some fascinating statistics and insights. Hitwise combines 
traditional market research with on-line monitoring of what people 
are looking at on the web with information obtained from ISPs.

A very surprise to find the Online Opinion web site 
<http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/> tops the "political" category, 
greatly outperforming any of the web sites of political parties. On 
Line Opinion is a non-profit academic style e-journal. I am on the 
advisory board for the site and have suggested we up our advertising 
charges as a result <http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/display.asp?page=eab>. ;-)

As noted in Gavin's talk, BOM dominates government web sites in terms 
of page views (56%) and Google dominates in terms of searching (86%). 
One surprise is that Google is also a significant web site in its own 
right (16%).

Karl had some interesting speculations about the future of web sites 
with consumer generated media, MySpace,YouTube, Podcasts and Wikipedia.

Hot topics: "water crisis", "water saving".

Karl argued that Australian advertisers were overspending on 
advertising in tradition radio, TV and print media, given the Web's 
increasing influence. He quickly skipped over some of the demographic 
categories which market researchers divide the population into. Some 
of the categories I saw were "Australia: Raising Expectations: 
comfortable outer suburban families in affordable homes", and "US: 
Cracker Barrel Cheese: Satellite dish, field and stream magazine, 
NASCAR Wilson Cup, Ford F250 Pickup".

One point he made was that commercial advertisers were buying 
government related keywords from Google and directing viewers to 
their commercial sites. This seems to be legal and largely ethical. 
About all the Government agencies can do is to bid for the keywords 
themselves (my web site gets ads for Defence recruiting).

One thought which occurs to me is that web sites featuring the 
whether and disaster information might rate very well. Government's 
may not wish to have paid commercial advertising on their web sites, 
but perhaps they could have internal government advertising. Each 
government web page could have a space reserved for advertising. 
Normally this would be used to promote government initiatives and 
publicize web sites (in effect the Government's own Google AdWords). 
The reserved space would also be used to advise the public of 
emergency information (emergency information is an area where Federal 
and State Australian governments do poorly online and as a result are 
placing the lives of citizens at risk).

Unfortunately Karl's excellent content was let down by slides with 
largely unreadable text. Hitwise need to study up on the 
accessibility standards the other two speakers were talking about.

This was very much a user group with a comfortable camaraderie 
amongst the speakers and audience, without the usual phony 
pretentiousness of many corporate IT events. One surprise is that 
AGIMO came in for light hearted banter, unlike the usual cold resect 
(or loathing) that central coordination agencies usual get.

I attended to hear of the audit of web sites, but both of the other 
presentations were worth attending for on their own. WSG meeting 
usually have two talks and they should return to that format. While 
it was all good, there was just too much content to absorb in one session.

It was a little cramped, with every seat taken in the "bunker 
theatre" under the Department of Environment 
<http://www.tomw.net.au/travel/gallery.shtml#jgb>. And yes, my phone 
didn't;work in the radiation shielded former cold war nuclear shelter.

The WSG is providing an excellent forum for government web developers 
in Canberra.

One use of such meetings is to chat with other web workers.



Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150
Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd            ABN: 17 088 714 309
PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617                http://www.tomw.net.au/
Visiting Fellow, ANU      Blog: http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/atom.xml  

From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Mon Jan 22 09:35:28 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Mon Jan 22 09:37:59 2007
Subject: [LINK] Analogue TV frequencies not just used for TV, so spanner
	in works of spectrum sale
In-Reply-To: <200701202125.l0KLPnLT015307@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <C1DA35DF.6D2%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>



> Ofcom spectrum sale hurts more than just the luvvies

I think that spectrum auctions/sales in Australia (and in most of the world)
have been the source of extraordinary wastefulness of this nation's
technological potential over the past few decades.

The income from sales/auctions is just a hidden form of indirect Federal
Government taxation.

The allocation is done in a way that is extraordinarily wasteful in its
application.

The restrictions imposed on spectrum use, mean that 90% of the national
spectrum resource goes unused for most of the time.

It is hard to think of a worse way of allocating resources than this.

Apart from the available TV and radio broadcasting channels, and a few
narrow bands like cellphones, air traffic control and taxi despatch, most of
the rest of the spectrum lies unused for most of the time.

We supposedly use the international spectrum allocation for television
transmission, yet Australia has never used Channels 12 to 27 in the UHF
band.

Yet this is the best part of the UHF band for distance broadcasting (more
important in Australia than elsewhere) -- and it exists as an enormous
spectrum gap from 222MHz up to 526MHz.  This was the obvious region to open
up for digital TV, and this could have been done without needing to destroy
analog channels until they are totally obsolete.

I've never managed to get an answer (that I trust) as to why these channels
were left vacant,  The authorities opened up the high end of the UHF band
for 'so-called business and foreign language' broadcasting at one time,
which meant that a set-top box was needed, because it was off the range of
international TV tuners.  Yet this on-tuner range from 12 to 27 lies vacant.

Has anyone ever heard any sort of a rational explanation?

I've been asking these questions at spectrum conferences for years, but
never had a convincing reply.

-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458
Glen forwards: 

From kim.holburn at gmail.com  Mon Jan 22 09:58:44 2007
From: kim.holburn at gmail.com (Kim Holburn)
Date: Mon Jan 22 09:59:02 2007
Subject: [LINK] Analogue TV frequencies not just used for TV,
	so spanner in works of spectrum sale
In-Reply-To: <C1DA35DF.6D2%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <C1DA35DF.6D2%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <C2F5DD6F-1CAD-4C6D-9A17-A7470107AB76@gmail.com>


On 2007/Jan/21, at 11:35 PM, Stewart Fist wrote:
> Apart from the available TV and radio broadcasting channels, and a few
> narrow bands like cellphones, air traffic control and taxi  
> despatch, most of
> the rest of the spectrum lies unused for most of the time.
>
> We supposedly use the international spectrum allocation for television
> transmission, yet Australia has never used Channels 12 to 27 in the  
> UHF
> band.
>
> Yet this is the best part of the UHF band for distance broadcasting  
> (more
> important in Australia than elsewhere) -- and it exists as an enormous
> spectrum gap from 222MHz up to 526MHz.  This was the obvious region  
> to open
> up for digital TV, and this could have been done without needing to  
> destroy
> analog channels until they are totally obsolete.
>
> I've never managed to get an answer (that I trust) as to why these  
> channels
> were left vacant,  The authorities opened up the high end of the  
> UHF band
> for 'so-called business and foreign language' broadcasting at one  
> time,
> which meant that a set-top box was needed, because it was off the  
> range of
> international TV tuners.  Yet this on-tuner range from 12 to 27  
> lies vacant.
>
> Has anyone ever heard any sort of a rational explanation?

I believe the simple economic answer is that more TV stations would  
dilute the advertising dollar and the stations wouldn't be viable.   
It has always seemed to me to be a monopolist's argument (tri- 
opolists?  quintopolists?).  That's the supposed answer to why we  
only have 5 channels not why we don't use the unallocated channels  
for something else.

> I've been asking these questions at spectrum conferences for years,  
> but
> never had a convincing reply.

--
Kim Holburn
IT Network & Security Consultant
Ph: +39 06 855 4294  M: +39 3342707610
mailto:kim@holburn.net  aim://kimholburn
skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request

Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny.
                           -- Lloyd Biggle, Jr. Analog, Apr 1961



From link at todd.inoz.com  Mon Jan 22 10:00:58 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Mon Jan 22 10:01:53 2007
Subject: [LINK] throw-away culture
In-Reply-To: <08DCA634-517A-443A-90B2-F811D54C9A3D@holburn.net>
References: <08DCA634-517A-443A-90B2-F811D54C9A3D@holburn.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070122095344.034fa910@wheresmymailserver.com>


I still have my Grandmothers Two Piece Toaster.  It doesn't pop up or turn 
off like modern toasters, but it still works and we often resort to it when 
the modern replaced every year or so toaster dies.

Strangely enough we have the same issue with the electric jug.  The Ceramic 
one with the curly heating element you replace for $2 every 10 years has 
long survived a dozen modern kettles.  I think it's faster too.

TV's are a problem, although most are at the end of their life presently 
and have had lives longer than 8 years.

It's LCD Panels and CRT Computer Monitors that are causing grief.  I see 
around 200 every council clean up and their numbers are increasing.  Many 
actually work fine.  I've had a habit of collecting the 17"+ ones and 
testing them, if they work I pick the best ones and replace all my dying 
ones.  I haven't had to buy a monitor in about 10 years. Average life of a 
CRT left on 24x7 is around 3-5 years.  The more modern ones with energy 
saver etc seem to survive about 3 years before they develop a fault more 
costly to repair than replace.

No, I'm all for long term use items.  The problem is manufacturers want to 
release a half baked item that will tease you into future 
upgrades.  Upgrades keep customers coming back and spending money, hence 
increasing profits.

Why make and sell something that does everything and lasts for years, when 
you can sell something that kinda does most things, can be upgraded and 
replaced for a cheap price and give you a tad more to want the next upgrade?

I'm a bit tired of it to be honest.

I also wish manufacturers of food products would wake up and realise that 
many a larger family requires larger product quantities.  2 litre bottles 
of juice last a day around here.  A 5 litre is the way to go.  However no 
one does this - not affordable.  (2 litres costs $1.89 at ALDI)

I guess the problem is with people being so mobile today and the training 
society has had in "Honey can you pick up a loaf of bread and a bottle of 
milk on your way home" attitude, we now live in a society of long hour 
supermarkets  where you can drop in any day of the week so why bulk buy and 
stock when you can drive and buy a handful?



At 07:15 AM 22/01/2007, Kim Holburn wrote:
>Very interesting article about designing for sustainable use.  I have
>said before on link that one answer to the land-fill problem is to
>put a disposal tax on things that need disposing.  It seems it's
>already happening and will increase.
>
>Designing things - appliances that last - needs a different economic
>approach - along the lines of a service rather than a product.
>
> From issue 2585 of New Scientist magazine, 04 January 2007, page 31-35
>Better by design: battling the throwaway culture (requires
>subscription to read on-line)
>http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/mg19325851.000- 
>better-by-design-battling-the-throwaway-culture.html
>
>>Americans use and throw away 2.5 million plastic bottles an hour.
>>The British produce enough garbage to fill the Albert Hall every 2
>>hours. According to the authors of Natural Capitalism, Paul Hawken,

From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Mon Jan 22 10:14:44 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Mon Jan 22 10:17:16 2007
Subject: [LINK] $100 laptop could sell to public
In-Reply-To: <200701202125.l0KLPnLT015307@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <C1DA3F14.6D3%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>



In reply to Richard, Stephen writes:

>> The OLPC is driven by fine sentiments and laudable enthusiasm.
>> So what is the sin in asking these questions?

> If that were all, then, great ... it's comments like in your last post that
> I must say get me down regarding a philanthropic education initiative.

<snip> 
>> After so many years of fighting for education resources, in every way
>> I can, it's a difficult habit to break. By all means, whinge-on my friend,
>> but please just logically support your arguments, and i will also. Fair?

But don't assume you are the only one who has been fighting for education
resources, Stephen.  Or that people can't disagree with you without being
irrational nay-sayers.

I ran the National Industry and Education Training faculty (called Open
Program) of the Australian Film, Radio and TV School for four years (in its
foundation days).  And I spent a lot of that time touring Australia looking
at electronic video, A/V and film resources in universities and schools, and
how they were being used.

Most purchases were too costly, too elaborate, too delicate, and too
technical for their applications, because the decisions to buy were in the
hands of technical types, rather than the educators.

I also spent more than 20 years as a part-time (and honorary) consultant to
the old UNESCO's Development of Communications Division, then later to the
South Pacific Form. They sent me to over a dozen countries in Asia and the
Pacific Islands to either run training programs or to determine technical
needs.  

For instance, I was part of a three-man team that went into
pre-Army-controlled Burma, and preparing a report on the technical needs of
the Burmese Government Film Unit (at a time when video was first coming in).
We also had to report as to how it should build its film and video
distribution network to schools and villages in the whole country.   They
used bullock-cart trains at that time to transport 35 mm projectors and
portable generators to the more remote parts.

I also wrote a report on the conversion of the Burmese TV system from a
hybrid  (Japanese gifted and inspire) NTSC-based 525-line but 50Hz and
250volt transmission system, to standard PAL -- and we then had to prepare
the basic equipment list for their new studio/transmitter.

On the spot experience was essential:
? We needed to take into account that power (and therefore air-conditioning)
was totally unreliable in Rangoon.
? We also had to be aware that backup generators were inevitably
requisitioned by the Army.

And there were thousands of other problems like:
? Most studio microphones won't survive in the tropics (only dynamic mikes
would last more than a year).
? Lenses got covered (internally) with fungus in this humidity.
? The Burmese didn't have foreign-exchange priorities that allowed lenses to
be sent overseas for refurbishing (it had to be done in-house), etc. etc.
and that meant training someone in lens disassemly.
? Over half the transport vehicles for the TV station and film unit were out
of action for most of the time because they didn't have the foreign-exchange
sums needed for replacement parts.
? The nation's film archives (Independence Day footage, etc) was stored in a
tin-sided shack in the jungle behind the film-unit. Air-conditioning and
temperature control consisted of sliding open a sheet of galvanised iron
when the room became too hot.
--- etc. etc. etc.

So my observations about the enormous amount of wasted money through
over-engineering in education and communications, both in Australia and in
Third World countries, isn't the product of either ignorance or malice.  It
comes from years of experience.

-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458


From ivan at itrundle.com  Mon Jan 22 10:18:13 2007
From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle)
Date: Mon Jan 22 10:18:26 2007
Subject: [LINK] Re: Australian Government Web Accessibility Audit Findings,
	Canberra, 18 January 2007
In-Reply-To: <20070121215726.6A2659939@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070108163523.01b88578@tomw.net.au>
	<20070121215726.6A2659939@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <B391329C-FA8F-4213-B6A6-932632F01B28@itrundle.com>

I'll be really picky here and focus on just a few points:

On 21/01/2007, at 4:13 PM, Tom Worthington wrote:

> At 04:40 PM 1/8/2007, I wrote:
>> Recommended:
>>
>>> Seventh Canberra WSG meeting ... 18 January ...
>
> This was an excellent meeting, as is usual for the Web Standard  
> Group. These are some notes taken during the presentations:
>
>>> First speaker: Alexi Paschalidis, Oxide Interactive Topic 1: Navy  
>>> web site redevelopment ...

<snip>

> A feature of the Navy site redevelopment is semantic consistency.  
> They are using Semantic XHTML with structural consistency; for  
> example a second level heading <h2> always has a first level  
> heading above it <h1>.

Why is this semantic? Numerically ordered, perhaps, but not at all  
semantic in language. I can think of many, many publications that  
have pages with subheadings, minor headings, or otherwise which don't  
have this 'level of consistency'. Indeed, in most instances, paper- 
based articles or papers or journals would reverse this into <h2> - 
<h1> - <h3>, or variations on a theme. I'd like to see one reference  
article that states that the first heading is always going to be  
bigger/more important/whatever than the next heading.

And the poor website managers would have to follow suit,  
contradicting those who believe that numerically-ordered heading tags  
are mandatory. Until they started mucking about with CSS and made  
<h1> smaller than <h2> in display, which of course turns the whole  
smenatic argument upside down. One can't always assume that headings  
are either logically ordered, or semantically ordered by importance.

> <snip>
>
> A little AI on the site's feedback form had allowed 80% of queries  
> to be answered automatically.

I've found sites that claim to use 'a little AI' to 'answer  
questions', and I rarely get an actual answer to my question. Simply  
automating the answers does not therefore mean that visitors are  
either better informed, or that their query is resolved.

>
> Alexi emphasized the need to educate the customers about the  
> benefits of using standards on web sites and the need to be  
> vigilant about the danger of  graphic designers being brought in to  
> design web sites. This and the frustration with senior executives  
> wanting to make quick changes are problems familiar to IT  
> developers. <snip>

Yes, the last thing that we need is for designers to design - far too  
dangerous. Or to have senior executives having any control - worse  
still. Best leave it to the 'IT developers', who will one day become  
developed enough to better understand their true role in information  
architecture, services, marketing and communications.

iT

--
Ivan Trundle
http://itrundle.com ivan@itrundle.com
ph: +61 (0)418 244 259 fx: +61 (0)2 6286 8742
skype: callto://ivanovitchk


From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Mon Jan 22 10:18:52 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Mon Jan 22 10:21:43 2007
Subject: [LINK] Analogue TV frequencies not just used for TV, so
	spanner in works of spectrum sale
In-Reply-To: <C2F5DD6F-1CAD-4C6D-9A17-A7470107AB76@gmail.com>
References: <C1DA35DF.6D2%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<C2F5DD6F-1CAD-4C6D-9A17-A7470107AB76@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5ii197$26vvf4@ipmail02.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 09:58 AM 22/01/2007, Kim Holburn wrote:
>I believe the simple economic answer is that more TV stations would
>dilute the advertising dollar and the stations wouldn't be viable.
>It has always seemed to me to be a monopolist's argument (tri- 
>opolists?  quintopolists?).  That's the supposed answer to why we
>only have 5 channels not why we don't use the unallocated channels
>for something else

I know that is what 'they' say. But coming from a small town in 
central Indiana with a population of 55k when all the uni students 
were in residence (about 8000 extra) where we had three TV stations 
that carried local news, local advertising, carried the national 
network programs in the evening, were in access distance of 2 other 
stations from the capital city as well, all free to air, I think that 
argument is a bunch of bunk.  And that was withOUT a public 
broadcasting station similar to ABC. It's called greed and control by 
Packer9/Stokes7/Ch10. We have 3 commercial stations for the entire 
country here, not 5. And the hundreds-of-channels cable systems have 
also put pay to the argument there.

Jan


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From rick at praxis.com.au  Mon Jan 22 11:00:07 2007
From: rick at praxis.com.au (rick)
Date: Mon Jan 22 11:01:18 2007
Subject: [LINK] throw-away culture
In-Reply-To: <08DCA634-517A-443A-90B2-F811D54C9A3D@holburn.net>
References: <08DCA634-517A-443A-90B2-F811D54C9A3D@holburn.net>
Message-ID: <45B3FE87.5070700@praxis.com.au>

Kim Holburn wrote:

> http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/mg19325851.000-better-by-design-battling-the-throwaway-culture.html 
> 
> 
>> Americans use and throw away 2.5 million plastic bottles an hour.

It is hard to imagine that many bottles: 10,957,500,000 per year.
And that is just the USA.

And to think that prior to plastic, all bottles were glass and ceramic,
and were practically 100% reused. My last use of reuseable glass
milk bottles was here in Sydney in the early 1980's. At that time,
a few 600 mL bottles of milk could be found on the bottle shelf
of some dairy fridges.

cheers
rickw



-- 
_________________________________
Rick Welykochy || Praxis Services

Law-abiding citizens value privacy. Terrorists require invisibility.
The two are not the same, and they should not be confused.
     -- Richard Perle
From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Mon Jan 22 11:10:51 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Mon Jan 22 11:13:21 2007
Subject: [LINK] Re: EMF and health
In-Reply-To: <200701191255.l0JCtXTR023902@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <C1DA4C3B.6DD%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>

Just for general information:



November 20 2006

? According to today's London Times, Sir William Stewart believes that the
evidence that microwave radiation can have potentially harmful effects has
become more persuasive over the past five years.

Stewart, who was the the chief science advisor to the U.K government from
1990 to 1995, is the head of the U.K.'s Health Protection Agency ? which
absorbed the NRPB (National Radiation Protection Board) last year. He
chaired the panel which wrote the influential report Mobile Phones and
Health in 2000. 





-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458


From brd at iimetro.com.au  Mon Jan 22 11:56:23 2007
From: brd at iimetro.com.au (brd@iimetro.com.au)
Date: Mon Jan 22 11:56:34 2007
Subject: [LINK] Re: EMF and health
In-Reply-To: <C1DA4C3B.6DD%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <C1DA4C3B.6DD%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070122095623.r49ixj4pa2lsogws@webmail.iimetro.com.au>

Quoting Stewart Fist <stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>:

> Just for general information:
> November 20 2006
>
>  According to today's London Times, Sir William Stewart believes that the
> evidence that microwave radiation can have potentially harmful effects has
> become more persuasive over the past five years.

I don't suppose the report gets into minor details such as dosage?

I can't find the Times article, only some letters to the editor that seem to
refer to it.

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using iiMetro WebMail
From jwhit at janwhitaker.com  Mon Jan 22 12:58:34 2007
From: jwhit at janwhitaker.com (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Mon Jan 22 13:01:50 2007
Subject: [LINK] Richard Newton passed away
Message-ID: <5ii197$27207k@ipmail02.adl2.internode.on.net>

May have some interest to linkers who may have known him:

Death of Richard Newton
Richard Newton, professor and dean of the College of Engineering at 
the University of California, Berkeley, a pioneer in electronic 
design automation and integrated circuit design, and a visionary 
leader in the technology industry, has died at the age of 55 after a 
short illness. Born in Melbourne and educated at the University of 
Melbourne, Richard was recruited to Berkeley in 1975. His involvement 
with Australia continued in his role as a founding member of NICTA's 
Scientific Advisory Group. Our sympathy to his family and colleagues 
at the loss of such a great man. www.coe.berkeley.edu/newsroom/newton



Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Mon Jan 22 14:07:57 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Mon Jan 22 14:11:00 2007
Subject: [LINK] throw-away culture
In-Reply-To: <200701220101.l0M11eWm017368@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <C1DA75BD.6E4%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>



Howard writes:
> 
> I have commented on this forum before about the lack of electronic waste
> recycling facilities outside of the cap. cities.  I was part of a group
> that was studying the economic viability of providing such a service, to
> be promoted and subsidised by local councils as part of their waste
> management responsibilities because it is not economically viable as a
> private operation, but none were interested.  They all say, "We're
> looking into it", but are doing nothing about it.  Unfortunately one of
> the biggest expenses in putting together such an operation is the labour
> costs and the associated expenses, esp. OH&S.

With the high cost of labor these days, and the low cost of products, I
doubt that it will ever be commercially viable, on the standard economic
basis.

A report a few years ago in the USA showed that just the pickup cost of
separated (recycled) garbage cost more than the amount that could be
recovered, from everything but aluminium cans ("solidified electricity").

The recycling option for electronics, I believe, must become part of a much
wider and comprehensive plan which involves the use of the unemployed and
the disabled.  It must be seen as a productive form of welfare assistance,
and judged on these economics, not those of the business community.

Of course, surcharges and high dumping costs would also help, but not really
solve the problem in times of such affluence.   I'm doing my bit by keeping
old iMac's alive, but I'm almost down to my last.


-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458

From brd at iimetro.com.au  Mon Jan 22 14:43:43 2007
From: brd at iimetro.com.au (brd@iimetro.com.au)
Date: Mon Jan 22 14:44:34 2007
Subject: [LINK] Victorians help mafia steal cash
Message-ID: <20070122124343.3qzalludk7gkoc4g@webmail.iimetro.com.au>

<brd>
further to a link discussion on this subject a few weeks ago
</brd>

Victorians help mafia steal cash
Mark Russell
January 21, 2007
The Age
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/victorians-help-mafia-steal-cash/200
7/01/20/1169096027898.html

POLICE are alarmed at the increasing number of Victorians being recruited b
y the
Russian mafia to help it launder millions of dollars stolen from bank accou
nts
on the internet.

The head of the state's police computer crime squad, Detective Senior Serge
ant
Mick Nolan, told The Sunday Age the use of mules had become vital for crime
gangs involved in "phishing".

Phishing involves people being tricked into supplying their personal bank
account details by answering fake bank and building society emails. The sca
ms
are believed to be robbing Australians of up to $2 million a month.

Mules are the middle men and women whose accounts are used for the initial
deposit of stolen money before it is transferred into a Russian account.

"What's becoming a real issue now is the proliferation of mule recruitment,
"
Detective Nolan said. "It's straight-out money laundering."

Another squad member, Acting Detective Senior Sergeant Greg Sevior, said:
"They'll use any method they can to try and find prospective employees. The
reality of it is, if you're offered a job that's going to pay you $1500 a w
eek
or perhaps more and all you're required to do is move money from one place 
to
another once or twice a week, you need to be asking yourself some questions
 as
to the legality of it."

The Russian mafia and Asian crime gangs recruit mules by sending emails to
targets who have applied for jobs online.

They also list jobs with online employment sites.

The emails claim to be from a company manager based in Europe or Asia who n
eeds
a representative in Australia.

One mule recruitment email states: "Our contractors are doing different wor
k for
Australian companies but have problems with getting the money, because our
sponsors agreed to pay only with the in-country bank wire transfers.

"So we need a person, 18-plus, authorised to work in Australia, who will re
ceive
the payments from our sponsors by wire transfers and transfer to our compan
y
with Western Union cash transfer, for example. We agree to pay you 10 per c
ent
for each transfer plus all the fees connected with the transfers."

Mules are often asked to open a bank account into which the gangs deposit t
he
proceeds of phishing scams.

A Federal Police spokeswoman said there was evidence that over the past few
months both European crime syndicates and local criminals were increasingly
involved in mule recruiting.

She said a joint banking finance sector investigation team had been set up
within the Australian High Tech Crime Centre to trace the stolen money give
n to
mules before it was transferred overseas.

"One of the problems that the team faces is that it's not easily determined
which city or state is predominantly responsible for mule recruiting in
Australia as all the states are reporting it," the AFP spokeswoman said.

She said the Federal Police did not have statistics on the total number of 
mules
who had been identified or how many had been arrested.

Queensland police, according to the nation's computer security agency Austr
alian
Computer Emergency Response Team (AusCERT), have been running an undercover
operation in which officers act as mules to target the online criminal gang
s.

Victoria Police would not comment on whether it was conducting similar
operations.

Russians are coming

How the Russian mafia recruits:
?Emails are sent offering jobs for "responsible, hard-working and motivat
ed"
applicants, and bogus job offers posted on employment websites;

?"Mules" who reply are asked to set up an account with a bank where crime
 gangs
have already hacked into accounts;

?The gangs transfer money (usually under $10,000 to avoid suspicion) to t
he
mule's account;

?The mule is then asked to withdraw the money, minus their percentage, an
d wire
to an overseas location.

-- 
Regards
brd

Bernard Robertson-Dunn
Sydney Australia
brd@iimetro.com.au

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using iiMetro WebMail 

From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Mon Jan 22 17:05:24 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Mon Jan 22 17:10:02 2007
Subject: [LINK] Victorians help mafia steal cash
In-Reply-To: <20070122124343.3qzalludk7gkoc4g@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
References: <20070122124343.3qzalludk7gkoc4g@webmail.iimetro.com.au>
Message-ID: <5ii197$275326@ipmail02.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 02:43 PM 22/01/2007, brd@iimetro.com.au wrote:
>She said the Federal Police did not have statistics on the total number of
>mules
>who had been identified or how many had been arrested.

And the reason is because they did NOT want to KNOW! I tried several 
times to report it as the links back to the people sending the 
phishing email was easily discernable. They seemed to think because 
they had applied a label to the problem they had addressed it. This 
was last year.

>Queensland police, according to the nation's computer security agency Austr
>alian
>Computer Emergency Response Team (AusCERT), have been running an undercover
>operation in which officers act as mules to target the online criminal gang
>s.

Thank goodness someone is acting on this.

Jan


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From grove at zeta.org.au  Mon Jan 22 17:56:14 2007
From: grove at zeta.org.au (grove@zeta.org.au)
Date: Mon Jan 22 17:56:35 2007
Subject: [LINK] throw-away culture
In-Reply-To: <45B43D57.7040704@lannet.com.au>
References: <C1DA75BD.6E4%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<45B43D57.7040704@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701221742290.7559@zathras.uws.edu.au>

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Howard Lowndes wrote:

> It's also something that Linux users are good at too.  But just think of the 
> new hardware demands after Jan 30 - thank you Microsoft.

Who else thinks that certain peripheral devices that require some 
sort of driver should by law be forced to release the driver API 
to the public so that the hardware can be run on future technology?

For example, I have 3 Emagic MIDI interfaces, that when combined
make a 24 Port interface, that is incredibly important to my music 
production environment.

Emagic was bought out by Apple a few years ago now and their products
were subsumed and the hardware products are no longer produced.

However, the MIDI interfaces are still usable, except on the PC,
where the driver support dropped off the map somewhere at Win2000 
and so a perfectly good piece of hardware with a definite core functionality
is made artificially unusable in that environment.

Now the MacOS has moved to Intel, there are credible fears that Apple
could kill driver support for the hardware, although there's nothing 
stopping the hardware from being supported natively.

If they choose to kill off the driver support, then me and about 20,000 
others are hosed - we won't have a quality product to drive our synths 
with.

There should be a large warning label on the front of any product that
relies on computer support for it's drivers, to mention that 
the provisioning of such a product is null and void if the OS support
exceeds the driver version supplied.

So, I believe in the interests of consumer choice and so on, that 
any product of whatever type should by default, have the driver 
sources released to the Public Domain at the point in time that 
there is a cessation of releases of driver updates for various OS.

It would cost the hardware vendor nothing and reassure customers
and users that their investment is not wasted in the future and 
also becomes a means to stop the industrial waste cycle where
perfectly usable products are scrapped for no other reason 
than a bit of firmware is locked up by a company for no apparent
reason other than planned obsolescence.


rachel


-- 
Rachel Polanskis                 Kingswood, Greater Western Sydney, Australia
grove@zeta.org.au                http://www.zeta.org.au/~grove/grove.html
 	"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security,
 	deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin, 1759
From kim.holburn at gmail.com  Mon Jan 22 18:50:07 2007
From: kim.holburn at gmail.com (Kim Holburn)
Date: Mon Jan 22 18:50:31 2007
Subject: [LINK] throw-away culture
In-Reply-To: <C1DA75BD.6E4%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <C1DA75BD.6E4%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <22983BA8-52A2-41FC-A7CE-4CCCF96EEB9E@gmail.com>


On 2007/Jan/22, at 4:07 AM, Stewart Fist wrote:

>
>
> Howard writes:
>>
>> I have commented on this forum before about the lack of electronic  
>> waste
>> recycling facilities outside of the cap. cities.  I was part of a  
>> group
>> that was studying the economic viability of providing such a  
>> service, to
>> be promoted and subsidised by local councils as part of their waste
>> management responsibilities because it is not economically viable  
>> as a
>> private operation, but none were interested.  They all say, "We're
>> looking into it", but are doing nothing about it.  Unfortunately  
>> one of
>> the biggest expenses in putting together such an operation is the  
>> labour
>> costs and the associated expenses, esp. OH&S.
>
> With the high cost of labor these days, and the low cost of  
> products, I
> doubt that it will ever be commercially viable, on the standard  
> economic
> basis.

Surely we could have some sort of service model where I "rent?" a  
current computer maybe even with software and it is upgraded every so  
often.  (Isn't that the path Microsoft wants us all to go down  
anyway?;-)  If we can push the upgrade and disposal costs to the  
provider then it's in their interests to bring those costs down.

> A report a few years ago in the USA showed that just the pickup  
> cost of
> separated (recycled) garbage cost more than the amount that could be
> recovered, from everything but aluminium cans ("solidified  
> electricity").
>
> The recycling option for electronics, I believe, must become part  
> of a much
> wider and comprehensive plan which involves the use of the  
> unemployed and
> the disabled.  It must be seen as a productive form of welfare  
> assistance,
> and judged on these economics, not those of the business community.
>
> Of course, surcharges and high dumping costs would also help, but  
> not really
> solve the problem in times of such affluence.   I'm doing my bit by  
> keeping
> old iMac's alive, but I'm almost down to my last.

Australia is affluent in landfill sites but not all countries are.   
Japan is having to seriously look at limiting waste.

--
Kim Holburn
IT Network & Security Consultant
Ph: +39 06 855 4294  M: +39 3342707610
mailto:kim@holburn.net  aim://kimholburn
skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request

Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny.
                           -- Lloyd Biggle, Jr. Analog, Apr 1961



From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au  Mon Jan 22 20:40:40 2007
From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au)
Date: Mon Jan 22 20:41:18 2007
Subject: [LINK] throw-away culture
In-Reply-To: <45B476DD.9000106@lannet.com.au>
References: <C1DA75BD.6E4%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>	<22983BA8-52A2-41FC-A7CE-4CCCF96EEB9E@gmail.com>
	<45B476DD.9000106@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <45B48698.4080607@ozemail.com.au>

 From Kim:

>
>> Japan is having to seriously look at limiting waste.
>
>
> This is the solution and that will require limits on required 
> packaging standards for foodstuffs as well as unnecessary packaging 
> for non-foodstuffs, especially retail display focussed packaging, and 
> the IT industry is one of the worse in that regard.

Indeed ... I am frequently flummoxed that Ethernet cables need at least 
two layers of display packaging. We're talking about a quite dull and 
strictly functional object here; yet in some outlets I find the outer 
bubble-wrap plus a second layer of plastic, not counting the cardboard 
in the plastic, just in case my brain went absent and I forgot that I 
was buying an Ethernet cable!

RC
From stephen at melbpc.org.au  Tue Jan 23 05:20:09 2007
From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen@melbpc.org.au)
Date: Tue Jan 23 05:20:28 2007
Subject: [LINK] psiphon
Message-ID: <20070122182009.289A715913@vscan42.melbpc.org.au>

Hi all,

Appears to be a major IT initiative:

psiphon  http://psiphon.civisec.org/

http://psiphon.civisec.org/faq1.html

'psiphon is a censorship circumvention solution that allows users to 
access blocked sites in countries where the Internet is censored.'

psiphon is funded by: Open Society Institute (Soros Foundation).
Centre for Innovation Law & Policy, Faculty of Law, University of Toronto 

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psiphon

--

ps, available six weeks, Aussie kids
have used it to bypass school filters :-)

Cheers all ..
Stephen Loosley
Victoria, Australia




Message sent using MelbPC WebMail Server



From Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au  Mon Jan 22 12:13:27 2007
From: Tom.Worthington at tomw.net.au (Tom Worthington)
Date: Tue Jan 23 08:41:05 2007
Subject: Straw Poll was Re: [LINK] Straw Pole of Good Bad and ugly
	online government services
In-Reply-To: <3A135C8E-8B7F-43CD-8EA7-42FCE709FB40@itrundle.com>
References: <45AC5C5A.5000500@ramin.com.au>
	<E04DB3A5-C09E-423D-BC23-5F59358CE82E@squiz.net>
	<66E6CCBD-D84A-4593-AA7F-EDA2B4679A74@itrundle.com>
	<45AFF87B.8010902@ramin.com.au>
	<3A135C8E-8B7F-43CD-8EA7-42FCE709FB40@itrundle.com>
Message-ID: <20070122214048.5E4DA2771E@heartbeat1.messagingengine.com>

At 10:28 AM 1/19/2007, Ivan Trundle wrote:
>>>Still trying to visualise a straw pole... (How long is it? Can it 
>>>be  used in place of tomato steaks?) ...

Mushrooms actually: "Plant mushroom technology with straw pole", 
Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region Agriculture department, 2006-1-23 
<http://eng.gxny.gov.cn/2006/0123/075158-1.html>   ;-)

"... The main raw materials which cultivate the mushroom are straw 
poles of crops The by product of processing of farm products (such as 
straw , wheatgrass , maize pole , rape pole ), excrement and urine of 
the weeds , poultry , domestic animal ,etc.. In addition , add a 
certain amount of mineral element. ..."

More seriously, this is the sort of information provided by 
government online services which can help developing nations. Low 
cost computer access could then be used to help improve food production.



Tom Worthington FACS HLM tom.worthington@tomw.net.au Ph: 0419 496150
Director, Tomw Communications Pty Ltd            ABN: 17 088 714 309
PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617                http://www.tomw.net.au/
Visiting Fellow, ANU      Blog: http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/atom.xml  

From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au  Tue Jan 23 09:22:47 2007
From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke)
Date: Tue Jan 23 09:23:16 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
Message-ID: <p0624080ac1dae6407fe3@[192.168.123.167]>

At 6:50 +1100 14/1/07, Alan L Tyree wrote:
>I'm looking for some help here. I'm writing a submission to ASIC on the
>review of the EFT Code of Conduct. One of the things that Industry has
>been pushing for is to make consumers liable for losses caused by
>computers infected with malware.
>The argument I wish to make is that consumers are hopelessly ill
>equipped to secure their (Windows) computers. ...


[Just as I'm nearing finalisation of a draft paper on the topic - 
I'll post an RFC shortly - up bobs this useful article.  Comments 
interspersed]


Banks look at liability for internet con losses
The Sydney Morning Herald, Business Section
Date: January 23 2007
Marc Moncrief
http://www.smh.com.au/text/articles/2007/01/22/1169330827286.html

REPORTS claiming banks had lobbied to make customers liable for money 
lost to internet fraud have been denied by both bankers and their 
regulator.

The Australian Bankers' Association said neither it nor any of its 
members had yet made submissions to a review of the existing code of 
conduct for the electronic funds transfer system of payment announced 
earlier this month by the Australian Securities and Investments 
Commission.

['Plausible deniability' usually hinges on setting up a straw man 
accusation and then denying the straw man.  'We haven't made any such 
submission' = 'we've lobbied for it, we've even made the mistake of 
mentioning it in writing a couple of times, but we've not [yet] made 
a 'submission' to that effect, at least not to ASIC']

The code applies to transactions made via EFTPOS, ATM and internet 
and telephone banking.

At present, banks voluntarily reimburse customers for money lost 
while banking online. The review will determine whether the current 
system should remain unchanged or if customers ought to bear some of 
the responsibility for keeping their personal computers secure.

[Isn't pseudo-regulation gloriously amenable?  While it suits your 
purposes as a shield, you call it 'self-regulation', and as soon as 
you want to get rid of it, you refer to it as 'voluntary'.  Expect 
next:  'uneconomic', 'red tape', 'impost on small business', 
'subsidy' and 'disincentive to consumer self-responsibility']

"There's going to be a lot of discussion about who is responsible for 
internet fraud," said the Australian Consumers Association's finance 
spokesman, Nick Coates. "I suspect there will be a vigorous argument 
presented to consumers that if you don't update your virus software 
or don't have the latest firewall in place that you have not 
fulfilled your duties under the EFT code."

A spokesman for the Australian Bankers' Association said neither the 
peak body nor any of its members nor any of its members' lawyers had 
been "specifically lobbying ASIC to have some changes made".

['have not been specifically lobbying' = 'have been generally lobbying']

ASIC's executive director of consumer protection, Greg Tanzer, said 
the regulator had consulted industry, and liability for internet 
fraud losses had been discussed as a topic of review, but the 
discussions had not "extended to lobbying" and no individual banks 
had been involved.

[oh better still:  if the lobbying is conducted at the invitation of 
the regulator, then it's not 'lobbying' but 'discussion']

Mr Tanzer said it might be reasonable to require users to keep 
up-to-date virus protection on their computers, or to provide them 
with some incentive to do so, particularly if they have been 
defrauded more than once without protecting themselves.

However, he said, there were also strong arguments against putting 
the responsibility on consumers to keep often complex technology in a 
particular state.

"It's important to have a debate about it but the debate should be in 
the context of: 'This is the issue that has been raised'. It's not a 
question of just shoving liability for fraud, including credit card 
fraud or anything else, on to consumers."

AACA's Mr Coates applauded the review but said consumer advocates 
were preparing for a stoush with some companies that might try to 
force a heavier burden on to their customers than was reasonable.

[AACA?  A mis-print?  Or has ACA - which now thinks and acts like a 
business and prefers to project the Choice branding - changed its 
association-name?]

"The EFT code is old," Mr Coates said. "It's ageing and it's 
struggling to stay up with the developments in modern banking 
technology. There's no question it needs upgrading."

-- 
Roger Clarke                  http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/
			            
Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd      78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA
                    Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916
mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au                http://www.xamax.com.au/

Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng  Australian National University
Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program      University of Hong Kong
Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre      Uni of NSW
From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au  Tue Jan 23 09:35:38 2007
From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke)
Date: Tue Jan 23 09:36:28 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
Message-ID: <p0624080ec1daeb46ad65@[192.168.123.167]>

[Karen Dearne's piece in Oz IT this morning includes this quote:
"It is generally that insecurity of end-user equipment is a major 
source of vulnerability to malicious software, and a properly secured 
PC is one of the best defences available," [ASIC's discussion paper] 
says.

[Can anyone envision this chimera 'a properly secured PC'?]

[Ah yes, silly me - a diskless device with no wired connection to any 
network, locked in a Faraday cage to preclude any form of unwired 
connection.  I suspect there may be a sci-fi story somewhere that 
involves a device of that nature slowly going mad from the loneliness 
of it all]



Users won't foot fraud bill: ASIC
Karen Dearne
The Australian IT Section
JANUARY 23, 2007
http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,21100671%5E15306%5E%5Enbv%5E,00.html

MEDIA reports that banks have lobbied the Australian Securities and 
Investment Commission to pass on online fraud costs to consumers are 
incorrect, ASIC and the Australian Banker's Association say.

The idea that online account holders should bear some responsibility 
for losses caused by security breaches to their home PCs is raised in 
a discussion paper ahead of a review of the Electronic Funds Transfer 
industry code of conduct.

There is no suggestion that banks are seeking to offload liability 
for internet banking fraud, estimated to cost about $25 million a 
year, nor has there been any lobbying on the matter, ABA chief 
executive David Bell said.

ASIC runs the voluntary code of practice, which provides consumer 
protection in autoteller and eftpos payments as well as phone and 
online transactions.

The code was last reviewed in 2001 and there have been substantial 
changes in the payments market - particularly online, ASIC consumer 
protection executive director Greg Tanzer said.

"We've been in discussions with industry organisations over the 
review, and the discussion paper sets out what we see as the key 
issues," Mr Tanzer said.

"There have been suggestions that we might have been subject to 
fairly active lobbying in a particular direction, but that's not the 
case."

Internet banking has sparked a range of new concerns, including 
liability if a customer has keyed in a wrong account number, 
resulting in an incorrect payment or if a customer has accidentally 
left their card in an autoteller, and it is then used by someone to 
withdraw money.

At the moment, the code protects consumers in these circumstances, 
and the debate is about "whether there is a point at which the 
consumer should bear more responsibility" than at present, he said.

The paper notes that a fraudulent transaction profits the criminal, 
leaving the loss to be borne by innocent parties - the financial 
institution, the customer and payment third parties.

"It is generally that insecurity of end-user equipment is a major 
source of vulnerability to malicious software, and a properly secured 
PC is one of the best defences available," it says.

"Nonetheless, research suggests that many online users do not 
adequately protect their equipment. Given this, some propose that 
users could be made liable for losses from malicious code 
compromises."

But the paper notes that a shifting of liability "may reduce the 
incentives" for financial providers to invest in online security.

In any case, it says, most consumers could not adequately secure 
their PCs against complex phishing and Trojan attacks on account 
information.

-- 
Roger Clarke                  http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/
			            
Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd      78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA
                    Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916
mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au                http://www.xamax.com.au/

Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng  Australian National University
Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program      University of Hong Kong
Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre      Uni of NSW
From cas at taz.net.au  Tue Jan 23 10:27:29 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Tue Jan 23 10:27:31 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <p0624080ec1daeb46ad65@[192.168.123.167]>
References: <p0624080ec1daeb46ad65@[192.168.123.167]>
Message-ID: <20070122232729.GO26390@taz.net.au>

On Tue, Jan 23, 2007 at 09:35:38AM +1100, Roger Clarke wrote:
> [Karen Dearne's piece in Oz IT this morning includes this quote:
> "It is generally that insecurity of end-user equipment is a major 
> source of vulnerability to malicious software, and a properly secured 
> PC is one of the best defences available," [ASIC's discussion paper] 
> says.
> 
> [Can anyone envision this chimera 'a properly secured PC'?]

i can.

to start with, it would be running linux (or freebsd or even mac osx but
linux is less hassle and there are a number of freely available live-CD
linux distros to choose from) rather than windows.

secondly, it would have java, flash, and other executable web content
disabled.


even something as simple as a bootable linux CD or USB flash-drive
or dual-boot partition (running, say, Ubuntu) for internet banking
and other security-sensitive sites would protect most users....as
long as they developed the habit of NEVER using windows for anything
security-sensitive. they could play games, browse the web, whatever else
they need in windows, but use ONLY linux for logging in to their bank.


most people don't have the skill or the knowledge to even begin to
secure a windows box....and of the few that do, even they can't
absolutely secure it because it is fundamentally insecure (the best they
can do is patch up all of the currently known holes and hope they hear
about any future holes before they get compromised).

a linux box, OTOH, is reasonably secure out-of-the-box...you have to
actually work hard at misconfiguring it to undermine its security. and
an expert CAN absolutely secure it.

craig

ps: another part of the problem has nothing to do with technological
security, it has to do with user stupidity and ignorance - e.g. clicking
on links in email to visit their "banking" site and typing in their
login & password. even a secure OS won't protect users from their own
actions.


-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Tue Jan 23 10:39:33 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Tue Jan 23 10:42:06 2007
Subject: [LINK] Re: EMF and health
In-Reply-To: <200701222226.l0MMQ0Xu016110@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <C1DB9664.6EE%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>

>From Dr Louis Slessin of Microwave News
(in the interests of disclosure, he's a old friend of mine)


An international team of researchers has found new evidence that long-term
use of a mobile phone may lead to the development of a brain tumor on the
side of the head the phone is used. In a study which will appear in an
upcoming issue of the International Journal of Cancer, epidemiologists from
five European countries report a nearly 40% increase in gliomas, a type of
brain tumor, among those who had used a cell phone for ten or more years.

The increase is statistically significant. In addition, there was a trend
showing that the brain tumor risk increased with years of use. The new paper
is posted on the journal's Web site.

This is the second type of tumor that has been linked to long-term cell
phone use. In 2004, the Swedish Interphone group reported a doubling of
acoustic neuromas among people who had used a mobile phone for ten years or
more.

The new study, part of the 13-country Interphone project, is based on the
data collected in Denmark, Finland, Norway, Sweden and the U.K. Last year,
the German Interphone team also reported an increase in gliomas following
more than ten years of mobile phone use. (See our report: "Is There a
Ten-Year Latency for Cell Phone Tumor Development?")

The new five-country study included 1,521 glioma cases and 3,301 controls.
There were 143 cases with ten or more years of mobile phone use. The earlier
German study had only 12 cases who had used a cell phone for at least ten
years.

Another research group, led by Lennart Hardell of ?rebro University and
Kjell Hansson Mild of the National Institute, both in Sweden, have also
found an increased risk of brain tumors and acoustic neuromas following ten
years of cell phone use.

"The [new] study shows that the issue is not settled and that more data,
preferably prospective data, are needed," Anders Ahlbom of the Kaolinska
Institute in Stockholm told Microwave News.

Anssi Auvinen of the Radiation and Nuclear Safety Authority (STUK) in
Helsinki, a member of the Finnish Interphone study team offered a similar
conclusion. "We need more research on long-term use," he stated in a press
release issued today.

In fact, on Saturday, the London Times revealed that Lawrie Challis, the
head of the U.K. research effort on mobile phones and health, known as MTHR,
is in the final stages of negotiations for a study of 200,000 mobile phone
users who will be monitored for cancer, Parkinson's and Alzheimer's
diseases. The story appeared on the front page of the January 20th Times.
"We know from smoking and from the bomb falling in Hiroshima that nothing
was seen for ten years," Challis told the BBC.

Ahlbom said that the planned study, disclosed by Challis, will be a joint
effort of an international consortium consisting, at present, of
epidemiologists from Denmark, Finland and Sweden, as well as the U.K.

The London Times ran a companion article under the headline: "Could These Be
the Cigarettes of the 21st Century? ... 'Absolutely'." And in an editorial,
the Times applauded the decision to carry out the new long-term study: "The
precautionary principle still applies here. Manufacturers should welcome the
new study."

At this writing, the cell phone industry had yet to issue any responses to
these new developments. But Sheila Johnston, a consultant based in London
with close ties to the mobile phone industry, circulated an e-mail this
morning calling Challis's announcement a "very sad outcome."

==================

My Comments:


There are more than two questions here.
The first is whether there is an increase in gliomas in cell-phone users,
and the answer appears to be statistically Yes.

The second is : Does that mean that the cellphones caused the gliomas?

The implication here is that they did, because of the claim that the cancers
occurred on the side of the head that the cellphone was being used, and also
that it was statistically related to years of use.

This is the bit I would be wary about, and it illustrates the need for very
strict blind test procedures.

If people suspect that their brain cancer has been caused by cellphone use,
then they will tend to report that they used their phone on this side of the
head -- that's human nature -- especially if the medical specialists are
offering them no other rational explanation as to why they have a brain
tumour, and others don't. They look for a reason, and often invent one in
the process. 

Even those without cancer are totally unreliable witnesses as to the side
they use their phone on.  People almost always report that they use
cellphones on the side opposite to their writing hand (presumably so they
can take notes).

But if you record cellphone head-side-use through street observations, it is
about 50:50 ... and yet we know that 7 out of 8 people are right handed.
So, in fact, for much of the time there is little correlation between
handedness and side-of-head exposure.

And without this side-of-the-head relationship with glioma, then the
statistical relationship loses a lot of its cause-effect order.  It could be
that gliomas are caused by something else which is in the environment of
people who use cellphones a lot.

The early adoption (10 or more years) of the group studied seems to suggest
that the group may have high incidence of say, specialist occupations - eg
tradesmen, like plumbers, who were early adopters of cellphones; telephone
linesmen (who I discovered were using their mobiles for up to 5 hours a day
as a link to the exchange while baling out wires).

Or it could be that gliomas are a disease of the affluent consumer.  The
second major group to take up cellphones were business executives.

This is obviously an important study -- and a precautionary cry -- but I'll
remain (uncomfortably) on the fence for a while longer.

-- 
Stewart Fist, writer, journalist, film-maker
70 Middle Harbour Road, LINDFIELD, 2070, NSW, Australia
Ph +61 (2) 9416 7458


From stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au  Tue Jan 23 10:44:31 2007
From: stewart_fist at optusnet.com.au (Stewart Fist)
Date: Tue Jan 23 10:47:01 2007
Subject: [LINK] Re: EMF and health
In-Reply-To: <200701222226.l0MMQ0Xu016110@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <C1DB978E.6EF%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>

Sorry, I forgot to include the actual Abstract


Mobile phone use and risk of glioma in 5 North European countries. Int J
Cancer. Jan 17; 2007

[Epub ahead of print]

Lahkola A, Auvinen A, Raitanen J, Schoemaker MJ, Christensen HC, Feychting
M, Johansen C, Klaeboe L, Lonn S, Swerdlow AJ, Tynes T, Salminen T



Public concern has been expressed about the possible adverse health effects
of mobile telephones, mainly related to intracranial tumors. We conducted a
population-based case-control study to investigate the relationship between
mobile phone use and risk of glioma among 1,522 glioma patients and 3,301
controls. 

We found no evidence of increased risk of glioma related to regular mobile
phone use (odds ratio, OR = 0.78, 95% confidence interval, CI: 0.68, 0.91).
No significant association was found across categories with duration of use,
years since first use, cumulative number of calls or cumulative hours of
use. 

When the linear trend was examined, the OR for cumulative hours of mobile
phone use was 1.006 (1.002, 1.010) per 100 hr, but no such relationship was
found for the years of use or the number of calls.

We found no increased risks when analogue and digital phones were analyzed
separately. 

For more than 10 years of mobile phone use reported on the side of the head
where the tumor was located, an increased OR of borderline statistical
significance (OR = 1.39, 95% CI 1.01, 1.92, p trend 0.04) was found, whereas
similar use on the opposite side of the head resulted in an OR of 0.98 (95%
CI 0.71, 1.37). 

Although our results overall do not indicate an increased risk of glioma in
relation to mobile phone use, the possible risk in the most heavily exposed
part of the brain with long-term use needs to be explored further before
firm conclusions can be drawn.


From eric.scheid at ironclad.net.au  Tue Jan 23 10:55:02 2007
From: eric.scheid at ironclad.net.au (Eric Scheid)
Date: Tue Jan 23 10:55:14 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <p0624080ec1daeb46ad65@[192.168.123.167]>
Message-ID: <C1DB9A06.D587F%eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au>

On 1/23/07 9:35 AM, "Roger Clarke" <Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au> wrote:

> Users won't foot fraud bill: ASIC
> Karen Dearne

> In any case, it says, most consumers could not adequately secure
> their PCs against complex phishing and Trojan attacks on account
> information.

and in any case: phishing does not require a compromised PC, being a social
hack, and so a "adequately secured PC" is as relevant as what colour socks
they happen to be wearing that day.

e.

From grove at zeta.org.au  Tue Jan 23 11:17:39 2007
From: grove at zeta.org.au (grove@zeta.org.au)
Date: Tue Jan 23 11:17:49 2007
Subject: [LINK] Google wants to put you on the map
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701231116260.7752@zathras.uws.edu.au>

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/01/22/1169330820917.html

Here's a chance to make a spectacle of yourself in front of the whole world on 
Australia Day.

On Friday, an aircraft hired by Google will be doing a series of low-level 
swoops over parts of Sydney, photographing the ground and waters below.

The three-seater plane, decked out in Google livery, will have special 
permission to fly at an altitude of 600m.

Providing the photographs turn out to be good enough quality, the images will 
be integrated into Google Maps, the free online mapping service used by 
millions of people around the world.


-- 
Rachel Polanskis                 Kingswood, Greater Western Sydney, Australia
grove@zeta.org.au                http://www.zeta.org.au/~grove/grove.html
 	"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security,
 	deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin, 1759
From link at todd.inoz.com  Tue Jan 23 11:49:45 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Tue Jan 23 11:50:21 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <20070122232729.GO26390@taz.net.au>
References: <p0624080ec1daeb46ad65@[192.168.123.167]>
	<20070122232729.GO26390@taz.net.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070123114834.03d27558@wheresmymailserver.com>

At 10:27 AM 23/01/2007, you wrote:
>most people don't have the skill or the knowledge to even begin to
>secure a windows box....and of the few that do, even they can't
>absolutely secure it because it is fundamentally insecure (the best they
>can do is patch up all of the currently known holes and hope they hear
>about any future holes before they get compromised).

Oh it's easy to secure a windows box.

1.  Place it behind three NATTING Linux boxes.

2.  Don't use it for browsing or Internet access.

3.  Delete all attachments to email before the user gets them.


From link at todd.inoz.com  Tue Jan 23 11:47:49 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Tue Jan 23 11:50:39 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <p0624080ec1daeb46ad65@[192.168.123.167]>
References: <p0624080ec1daeb46ad65@[192.168.123.167]>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070123114532.03d277e8@wheresmymailserver.com>

At 09:35 AM 23/01/2007, Roger Clarke wrote:
>[Karen Dearne's piece in Oz IT this morning includes this quote:
>"It is generally that insecurity of end-user equipment is a major source 
>of vulnerability to malicious software, and a properly secured PC is one 
>of the best defences available," [ASIC's discussion paper] says.
>
>[Can anyone envision this chimera 'a properly secured PC'?]
>
>[Ah yes, silly me - a diskless device with no wired connection to any 
>network, locked in a Faraday cage to preclude any form of unwired 
>connection.  I suspect there may be a sci-fi story somewhere that involves 
>a device of that nature slowly going mad from the loneliness of it all]

Actually there are SciFi Movies about devices of that nature taking control 
of the whole of the building and killing off the humans one by one because 
it was so lonely!

It developed it's abilities to communicate outside it's cage by oscillating 
it's power making an RF connection.

No, it wasn't in a Faraday cage so perhaps that was an oversight by the 
"inventors" of the system and it's enclosure.  Or a deliberate mistake - or 
a plot point.  I can't be sure :)




From marghanita at ramin.com.au  Tue Jan 23 11:51:54 2007
From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz)
Date: Tue Jan 23 11:51:42 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <C1DB9A06.D587F%eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au>
References: <C1DB9A06.D587F%eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au>
Message-ID: <45B55C2A.6000704@ramin.com.au>

Eric Scheid wrote:
> On 1/23/07 9:35 AM, "Roger Clarke" <Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Users won't foot fraud bill: ASIC
>>Karen Dearne
> 
> 
>>In any case, it says, most consumers could not adequately secure
>>their PCs against complex phishing and Trojan attacks on account
>>information.
> 
> 
> and in any case: phishing does not require a compromised PC, being a social
> hack, and so a "adequately secured PC" is as relevant as what colour socks
> they happen to be wearing that day.
..
and then there is this case:
> Judge in Hilliard case lambasts Westpac
> BANKING practices revealed in the court fight between businessman Steve Vizard and his former bookkeeper, Roy Hilliard, portrayed Westpac as one of the world's laxest banks, a judge said yesterday.
<http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/judge-in-hilliard-case-lambasts-westpac/2006/09/27/1159337222684.html>

m
-- 
Marghanita da Cruz
http://www.ramin.com.au/
Telephone: 0414-869202
Ramin Communications Pty Ltd
ABN: 027-089-713-084



From alan at austlii.edu.au  Tue Jan 23 11:57:52 2007
From: alan at austlii.edu.au (Alan L Tyree)
Date: Tue Jan 23 11:59:24 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <p0624080ac1dae6407fe3@[192.168.123.167]>
References: <p0624080ac1dae6407fe3@[192.168.123.167]>
Message-ID: <20070123115752.f6eb592d.alan@austlii.edu.au>

On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 09:22:47 +1100
Roger Clarke <Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au> wrote:

> At 6:50 +1100 14/1/07, Alan L Tyree wrote:
> >I'm looking for some help here. I'm writing a submission to ASIC on
> >the review of the EFT Code of Conduct. One of the things that
> >Industry has been pushing for is to make consumers liable for losses
> >caused by computers infected with malware.
> >The argument I wish to make is that consumers are hopelessly ill
> >equipped to secure their (Windows) computers. ...
> 
> 
> [Just as I'm nearing finalisation of a draft paper on the topic - 
> I'll post an RFC shortly - up bobs this useful article.  Comments 
> interspersed]

Thanks Roger, although I'm still not sure how this got on Link. I
was looking for some guidance from the SLUG list. Oh, well, I need all
the help I can get.

<SNIP>

> 
> ['Plausible deniability' usually hinges on setting up a straw man 
> accusation and then denying the straw man.  'We haven't made any such 
> submission' = 'we've lobbied for it, we've even made the mistake of 
> mentioning it in writing a couple of times, but we've not [yet] made 
> a 'submission' to that effect, at least not to ASIC']

Agree. The Telegraph yesterday said that the proposal was part of a
submission by a law firm that represents banks. Could be any or all of
the large law firms. One thing I have noticed is how little lawyers at
these firms understand even the basics of consumer protection policy.
They simply consider it as an obstacle to their client which can, and
should, be circumvented.

A speaker at a recent meeting of the Banking Law Association even
railed at the whole idea of consumer protection, even saying "What
about freedom of contract?" A perfect 19th century concept for the 21st
century, but very indicative of the thinking in the large City firms.




> 
<SNIP>
> 
> "It's important to have a debate about it but the debate should be in 
> the context of: 'This is the issue that has been raised'. It's not a 
> question of just shoving liability for fraud, including credit card 
> fraud or anything else, on to consumers."

The hell it isn't. Having chosen to use the immense free resource
(consumers' PCs) instead of putting in dedicated equipment, the
proposal is definately to shift the ensuing losses onto the consumer.

<SNIP>
> 
> "The EFT code is old," Mr Coates said. "It's ageing and it's 
> struggling to stay up with the developments in modern banking 
> technology. There's no question it needs upgrading."

Not too much, actually. The basic structure of the EFT Code is very
good, and its interpretation by the Banking Ombudsman has made it even
more so. Part B needs to be expanded to cover all payment mechanisms
which are not based on a traditional account, but the allocation of
liabilities generally is very fair - assuming, of course, that the
recent initiatives don't go through.

Alan

> 
> -- 
> Roger Clarke
> http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/ 
> Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd      78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611
> AUSTRALIA Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916
> mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au
> http://www.xamax.com.au/
> 
> Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng  Australian National
> University Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program
> University of Hong Kong Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law &
> Policy Centre      Uni of NSW
> _______________________________________________ Link mailing list
> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au
> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link
> 


-- 
Alan L Tyree                    http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel: +61 2 4782 2670            Mobile: +61 427 486 206
Fax: +61 2 4782 7092            FWD: 615662
From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au  Tue Jan 23 12:01:25 2007
From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (Richard Chirgwin)
Date: Tue Jan 23 12:01:50 2007
Subject: [LINK] Google wants to put you on the map
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701231116260.7752@zathras.uws.edu.au>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701231116260.7752@zathras.uws.edu.au>
Message-ID: <45B55E65.1050002@ozemail.com.au>

The anatomy of public relations ...

"If we dressed up invasion of privacy as a publicity stunt, would people 
like it?"

And then, if someone says "hang on, why do I want Google to photograph 
my backyard from 600m and publish the pics on the Internet", Google has 
an army of suckers and morons to say stuff like "oh it's only a bit of 
fun, don't be a spoilsport".

So I have a few days to think of something *really appropriate* to stick 
on my roof ... I need a subtle subversion so that it only gets noticed 
after the map's published ... thinking caps on ...

RC


grove@zeta.org.au wrote:
> http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/01/22/1169330820917.html
>
> Here's a chance to make a spectacle of yourself in front of the whole 
> world on Australia Day.
>
> On Friday, an aircraft hired by Google will be doing a series of 
> low-level swoops over parts of Sydney, photographing the ground and 
> waters below.
>
> The three-seater plane, decked out in Google livery, will have special 
> permission to fly at an altitude of 600m.
>
> Providing the photographs turn out to be good enough quality, the 
> images will be integrated into Google Maps, the free online mapping 
> service used by millions of people around the world.
>
>
From alan at austlii.edu.au  Tue Jan 23 12:24:37 2007
From: alan at austlii.edu.au (Alan L Tyree)
Date: Tue Jan 23 12:26:08 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <45B55C2A.6000704@ramin.com.au>
References: <C1DB9A06.D587F%eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au>
	<45B55C2A.6000704@ramin.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070123122437.92f4b26e.alan@austlii.edu.au>

On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 11:51:54 +1100
Marghanita da Cruz <marghanita@ramin.com.au> wrote:

> Eric Scheid wrote:
> > On 1/23/07 9:35 AM, "Roger Clarke" <Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >>Users won't foot fraud bill: ASIC
> >>Karen Dearne
> > 
> > 
> >>In any case, it says, most consumers could not adequately secure
> >>their PCs against complex phishing and Trojan attacks on account
> >>information.
> > 
> > 
> > and in any case: phishing does not require a compromised PC, being
> > a social hack, and so a "adequately secured PC" is as relevant as
> > what colour socks they happen to be wearing that day.
> ..
> and then there is this case:
> > Judge in Hilliard case lambasts Westpac
> > BANKING practices revealed in the court fight between businessman
> > Steve Vizard and his former bookkeeper, Roy Hilliard, portrayed
> > Westpac as one of the world's laxest banks, a judge said yesterday.
> <http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/judge-in-hilliard-case-lambasts-westpac/2006/09/27/1159337222684.html>

Or this one with the same bank. Banking practice here made the fraud
almost inevitable, and then the Victorian Court of Appeal let them get
away with it: 
http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan/fraud-by-design.html

> 
> m
> -- 
> Marghanita da Cruz
> http://www.ramin.com.au/
> Telephone: 0414-869202
> Ramin Communications Pty Ltd
> ABN: 027-089-713-084
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Link mailing list
> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au
> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link
> 


-- 
Alan L Tyree                    http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel: +61 2 4782 2670            Mobile: +61 427 486 206
Fax: +61 2 4782 7092            FWD: 615662
From ivan at itrundle.com  Tue Jan 23 12:32:21 2007
From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle)
Date: Tue Jan 23 12:32:38 2007
Subject: [LINK] Google wants to put you on the map
In-Reply-To: <45B55E65.1050002@ozemail.com.au>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701231116260.7752@zathras.uws.edu.au>
	<45B55E65.1050002@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <F2665B4E-925E-461C-B36B-D99CFF512B82@itrundle.com>


On 23/01/2007, at 12:01 PM, Richard Chirgwin wrote:

> The anatomy of public relations ...
>
> "If we dressed up invasion of privacy as a publicity stunt, would  
> people like it?"
>
> And then, if someone says "hang on, why do I want Google to  
> photograph my backyard from 600m and publish the pics on the  
> Internet", Google has an army of suckers and morons to say stuff  
> like "oh it's only a bit of fun, don't be a spoilsport".
>
> So I have a few days to think of something *really appropriate* to  
> stick on my roof ... I need a subtle subversion so that it only  
> gets noticed after the map's published ... thinking caps on ...

Lucky that you've actually got a roof, Richard. Some of us should be  
so lucky...

Google for the story of the Coca-Cola poster that was produced for  
Australian distribution some years ago (no, I'm not going to provide  
the link). It was eventually 'discovered' and immediately withdrawn  
(pardon the double-pun). I gather that the designer got into deep  
trouble, too.

iT



From marghanita at ramin.com.au  Tue Jan 23 13:00:08 2007
From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz)
Date: Tue Jan 23 13:00:21 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <20070123122437.92f4b26e.alan@austlii.edu.au>
References: <C1DB9A06.D587F%eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au>	<45B55C2A.6000704@ramin.com.au>
	<20070123122437.92f4b26e.alan@austlii.edu.au>
Message-ID: <45B56C28.5090300@ramin.com.au>

Alan L Tyree wrote:
<snip>
> Or this one with the same bank. Banking practice here made the fraud
> almost inevitable, and then the Victorian Court of Appeal let them get
> away with it: 
> http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan/fraud-by-design.html
...
On the handful of occassions I ring my (not westpac) bank's telephone
call centre, the operator insists I have to set a password. When I
refuse, they set one for me, saying it will speed up future processing!
As I do not use Internet or Telephone banking - I am guessing/hoping
that if there is a fraud on my account, the issue will be resolved with 
a minimum of fuss.

Note, I do have some confidence in my bank as they have detected and 
addressed an Internet Fraud on my credit card.

With regard to physing, if a username/password is captured in a phishing 
scam, don't they also
need to fake the IP address?

These thre reference may also be of help/interest

Banking on six pillars of safety
S Krishna Kumar, GM (IT) & CISO, SBI, has rested his security strategy
on six pillars of safety that include governance, risk assessment and
compliance
<http://www.networkmagazineindia.com/200605/coverstory22.shtml>

ANAO Audit Report. No.45 2005?06, Internet. Security in Australian.
Government Agencies.
<http://www.anao.gov.au/download.cfm?item_id=5F1E54451560A6E8AA801E391096ADB9&binary_id=5F1B90A11560A6E8AA5EF19DF05C180B>

and
<http://www.dcita.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/41311/IT_Security_Governance_CIO_Executive_Summary.pdf>

Marghanita
-- 
Marghanita da Cruz
http://www.ramin.com.au/
Telephone: 0414-869202
Ramin Communications Pty Ltd
ABN: 027-089-713-084





From brd at iimetro.com.au  Tue Jan 23 13:36:40 2007
From: brd at iimetro.com.au (brd@iimetro.com.au)
Date: Tue Jan 23 13:36:48 2007
Subject: [LINK] Google wants to put you on the map
In-Reply-To: <F2665B4E-925E-461C-B36B-D99CFF512B82@itrundle.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701231116260.7752@zathras.uws.edu.au>
	<45B55E65.1050002@ozemail.com.au>
	<F2665B4E-925E-461C-B36B-D99CFF512B82@itrundle.com>
Message-ID: <20070123113640.8axyymw89fvw4ooo@webmail.iimetro.com.au>

Quoting Ivan Trundle <ivan@itrundle.com>:

> Google for the story of the Coca-Cola poster that was produced for  
> Australian distribution some years ago (no, I'm not going to provide  
> the link). It was eventually 'discovered' and immediately withdrawn  
> (pardon the double-pun). I gather that the designer got into deep  
> trouble, too.

http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/poster.asp

-- 
Regards
brd

Bernard Robertson-Dunn
Sydney Australia
brd@iimetro.com.au

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using iiMetro WebMail
From alan at austlii.edu.au  Tue Jan 23 13:43:18 2007
From: alan at austlii.edu.au (Alan L Tyree)
Date: Tue Jan 23 13:44:52 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <45B56C28.5090300@ramin.com.au>
References: <C1DB9A06.D587F%eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au>
	<45B55C2A.6000704@ramin.com.au>
	<20070123122437.92f4b26e.alan@austlii.edu.au>
	<45B56C28.5090300@ramin.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070123134318.f711a9af.alan@austlii.edu.au>

On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:00:08 +1100
Marghanita da Cruz <marghanita@ramin.com.au> wrote:

> Alan L Tyree wrote:
> <snip>
> > Or this one with the same bank. Banking practice here made the fraud
> > almost inevitable, and then the Victorian Court of Appeal let them
> > get away with it: 
> > http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan/fraud-by-design.html
> ...
> On the handful of occassions I ring my (not westpac) bank's telephone
> call centre, the operator insists I have to set a password. When I
> refuse, they set one for me, saying it will speed up future
> processing! As I do not use Internet or Telephone banking - I am
> guessing/hoping that if there is a fraud on my account, the issue
> will be resolved with a minimum of fuss.
> 
> Note, I do have some confidence in my bank as they have detected and 
> addressed an Internet Fraud on my credit card.
> 
> With regard to physing, if a username/password is captured in a
> phishing scam, don't they also
> need to fake the IP address?

Well, no, I don't think so. I have never heard that the banks do
anything other than rely on the login/password scheme. That is one of
the things that I am complaining about in my submissions to ASIC.

Alan

> 
> These thre reference may also be of help/interest
> 
> Banking on six pillars of safety
> S Krishna Kumar, GM (IT) & CISO, SBI, has rested his security strategy
> on six pillars of safety that include governance, risk assessment and
> compliance
> <http://www.networkmagazineindia.com/200605/coverstory22.shtml>
> 
> ANAO Audit Report. No.45 2005?06, Internet. Security in Australian.
> Government Agencies.
> <http://www.anao.gov.au/download.cfm?item_id=5F1E54451560A6E8AA801E391096ADB9&binary_id=5F1B90A11560A6E8AA5EF19DF05C180B>
> 
> and
> <http://www.dcita.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/41311/IT_Security_Governance_CIO_Executive_Summary.pdf>
> 
> Marghanita
> -- 
> Marghanita da Cruz
> http://www.ramin.com.au/
> Telephone: 0414-869202
> Ramin Communications Pty Ltd
> ABN: 027-089-713-084
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Alan L Tyree                    http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel: +61 2 4782 2670            Mobile: +61 427 486 206
Fax: +61 2 4782 7092            FWD: 615662
From marghanita at ramin.com.au  Tue Jan 23 14:08:07 2007
From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz)
Date: Tue Jan 23 14:15:40 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <20070123134318.f711a9af.alan@austlii.edu.au>
References: <C1DB9A06.D587F%eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au>	<45B55C2A.6000704@ramin.com.au>	<20070123122437.92f4b26e.alan@austlii.edu.au>	<45B56C28.5090300@ramin.com.au>
	<20070123134318.f711a9af.alan@austlii.edu.au>
Message-ID: <45B57C17.6030200@ramin.com.au>

Alan L Tyree wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:00:08 +1100
> Marghanita da Cruz <marghanita@ramin.com.au> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Alan L Tyree wrote:
>><snip>
>>
>>>Or this one with the same bank. Banking practice here made the fraud
>>>almost inevitable, and then the Victorian Court of Appeal let them
>>>get away with it: 
>>>http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan/fraud-by-design.html
>>
>>...
>>On the handful of occassions I ring my (not westpac) bank's telephone
>>call centre, the operator insists I have to set a password. When I
>>refuse, they set one for me, saying it will speed up future
>>processing! As I do not use Internet or Telephone banking - I am
>>guessing/hoping that if there is a fraud on my account, the issue
>>will be resolved with a minimum of fuss.
>>
>>Note, I do have some confidence in my bank as they have detected and 
>>addressed an Internet Fraud on my credit card.
>>
>>With regard to physing, if a username/password is captured in a
>>phishing scam, don't they also
>>need to fake the IP address?
> 
> 
> Well, no, I don't think so. I have never heard that the banks do
> anything other than rely on the login/password scheme. That is one of
> the things that I am complaining about in my submissions to ASIC.
<snip>

 From a consumer perspective, wouldn't it would be better to leave Banks 
to decide what they use to authenticate users and the information they 
log about transactions. This would put the onus on them to prove the 
source of a fraud and demonstrate due care of their customers funds.

Marghanita
-- 
eMarghanita da Cruz
http://www.ramin.com.au/
Telephone: 0414-869202
Ramin Communications Pty Ltd
ABN: 027-089-713-084



From ivan at itrundle.com  Tue Jan 23 14:21:16 2007
From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle)
Date: Tue Jan 23 14:21:32 2007
Subject: [LINK] Google wants to put you on the map
In-Reply-To: <45B571DE.1070304@lannet.com.au>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0701231116260.7752@zathras.uws.edu.au>
	<45B571DE.1070304@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <227362A7-62BB-4AE4-B158-89E98B18866C@itrundle.com>

So what's the story with balloonists and cameras - since privacy was  
mentioned earlier?

iT

(and thanks Bernard for the Snopes reference: I'd be more inclined to  
walk around under the camera with a cardboard hat on, with a suitable  
message)

From alan at austlii.edu.au  Tue Jan 23 14:35:42 2007
From: alan at austlii.edu.au (Alan L Tyree)
Date: Tue Jan 23 14:37:19 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <45B57C17.6030200@ramin.com.au>
References: <C1DB9A06.D587F%eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au>
	<45B55C2A.6000704@ramin.com.au>
	<20070123122437.92f4b26e.alan@austlii.edu.au>
	<45B56C28.5090300@ramin.com.au>
	<20070123134318.f711a9af.alan@austlii.edu.au>
	<45B57C17.6030200@ramin.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070123143542.3705832f.alan@austlii.edu.au>

On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 14:08:07 +1100
Marghanita da Cruz <marghanita@ramin.com.au> wrote:

> Alan L Tyree wrote:
> > On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:00:08 +1100
> > Marghanita da Cruz <marghanita@ramin.com.au> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >>Alan L Tyree wrote:
> >><snip>
> >>
> >>>Or this one with the same bank. Banking practice here made the
> >>>fraud almost inevitable, and then the Victorian Court of Appeal
> >>>let them get away with it: 
> >>>http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan/fraud-by-design.html
> >>
> >>...
> >>On the handful of occassions I ring my (not westpac) bank's
> >>telephone call centre, the operator insists I have to set a
> >>password. When I refuse, they set one for me, saying it will speed
> >>up future processing! As I do not use Internet or Telephone banking
> >>- I am guessing/hoping that if there is a fraud on my account, the
> >>issue will be resolved with a minimum of fuss.
> >>
> >>Note, I do have some confidence in my bank as they have detected
> >>and addressed an Internet Fraud on my credit card.
> >>
> >>With regard to physing, if a username/password is captured in a
> >>phishing scam, don't they also
> >>need to fake the IP address?
> > 
> > 
> > Well, no, I don't think so. I have never heard that the banks do
> > anything other than rely on the login/password scheme. That is one
> > of the things that I am complaining about in my submissions to ASIC.
> <snip>
> 
>  From a consumer perspective, wouldn't it would be better to leave
> Banks to decide what they use to authenticate users and the
> information they log about transactions. This would put the onus on
> them to prove the source of a fraud and demonstrate due care of their
> customers funds.

Yep. What I meant was that I am complaining that the banks do nothing
but are still trying to throw liability onto the consumers. I agree
with you, let the banks do what they want, but also bear the costs of
it.

The current EFT Code does that, more or less. The proposal before ASIC
(Q28 in the Discussion Paper) would change that.

> 
> Marghanita
> -- 
> eMarghanita da Cruz
> http://www.ramin.com.au/
> Telephone: 0414-869202
> Ramin Communications Pty Ltd
> ABN: 027-089-713-084
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Alan L Tyree                    http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel: +61 2 4782 2670            Mobile: +61 427 486 206
Fax: +61 2 4782 7092            FWD: 615662
From cas at taz.net.au  Tue Jan 23 15:38:16 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Tue Jan 23 15:38:15 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <45B56C28.5090300@ramin.com.au>
References: <C1DB9A06.D587F%eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au>
	<45B55C2A.6000704@ramin.com.au>
	<20070123122437.92f4b26e.alan@austlii.edu.au>
	<45B56C28.5090300@ramin.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070123043816.GP26390@taz.net.au>

On Tue, Jan 23, 2007 at 01:00:08PM +1100, Marghanita da Cruz wrote:
> With regard to physing, if a username/password is captured in a
> phishing scam, don't they also need to fake the IP address?

nope.  most people don't have a static IP address, they get a dynamically
assigned IP whenever they log in to the net.

AFAIK, no bank even has an option allowing the user to limit the IP
address(es) that they may login from. i wish they did, i'd find it
useful - i have my own /24s and only ever login to my bank from home.

craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From cas at taz.net.au  Tue Jan 23 15:45:21 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Tue Jan 23 15:45:41 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <45B57C17.6030200@ramin.com.au>
References: <C1DB9A06.D587F%eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au>
	<45B55C2A.6000704@ramin.com.au>
	<20070123122437.92f4b26e.alan@austlii.edu.au>
	<45B56C28.5090300@ramin.com.au>
	<20070123134318.f711a9af.alan@austlii.edu.au>
	<45B57C17.6030200@ramin.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070123044521.GQ26390@taz.net.au>

On Tue, Jan 23, 2007 at 02:08:07PM +1100, Marghanita da Cruz wrote:
> From a consumer perspective, wouldn't it would be better to leave Banks 
> to decide what they use to authenticate users and the information they 
> log about transactions. This would put the onus on them to prove the 
> source of a fraud and demonstrate due care of their customers funds.

from a consumer perspective, it would be better if banks had several
options that the user could choose to enable. i'd personally choose
limited IP range, client-certificate, AND token/code from a keychain
gizmo, all in addition to login & password.

if i was going travelling, i would temporarily disable the IP limit and
take a laptop with me that had my client cert on it (i'd take a laptop
travelling anyway and set up a uucp-over-tcp feed or something for my
mail).

oh yeah: the banks should require, at minimum, login & password PLUS
a keychain token. client cert and IP address limit would be optional
restrictions.

craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From marghanita at ramin.com.au  Tue Jan 23 16:08:37 2007
From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz)
Date: Tue Jan 23 16:08:37 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <20070123044521.GQ26390@taz.net.au>
References: <C1DB9A06.D587F%eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au>	<45B55C2A.6000704@ramin.com.au>	<20070123122437.92f4b26e.alan@austlii.edu.au>	<45B56C28.5090300@ramin.com.au>	<20070123134318.f711a9af.alan@austlii.edu.au>	<45B57C17.6030200@ramin.com.au>
	<20070123044521.GQ26390@taz.net.au>
Message-ID: <45B59855.7030009@ramin.com.au>

Craig Sanders wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 23, 2007 at 02:08:07PM +1100, Marghanita da Cruz wrote:
> 
>>From a consumer perspective, wouldn't it would be better to leave Banks 
>>to decide what they use to authenticate users and the information they 
>>log about transactions. This would put the onus on them to prove the 
>>source of a fraud and demonstrate due care of their customers funds.
> 
> 
> from a consumer perspective, it would be better if banks had several
> options that the user could choose to enable. i'd personally choose
> limited IP range, client-certificate, AND token/code from a keychain
> gizmo, all in addition to login & password.
> 
> if i was going travelling, i would temporarily disable the IP limit and
> take a laptop with me that had my client cert on it (i'd take a laptop
> travelling anyway and set up a uucp-over-tcp feed or something for my
> mail).
> 
> oh yeah: the banks should require, at minimum, login & password PLUS
> a keychain token. client cert and IP address limit would be optional
> restrictions.

This was kind of my point, it is really up to the banks to do the risk
assessment. I don't think it should be left to consumers to choose.

The IP address/or a phone number would be useful in tracing the source
of the fraud rather than authentication.

I have had a laptop stolen...which makes me a bit wary of storing
anything on one. I would also be reticent to use a public computer or
even one in a workplace - but then as I said, I don't use Internet or
Telephone banking.

Marghanita
-- 
Marghanita da Cruz
http://www.ramin.com.au/
Telephone: 0414-869202
Ramin Communications Pty Ltd
ABN: 027-089-713-084




From stephen at melbpc.org.au  Tue Jan 23 16:41:29 2007
From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen@melbpc.org.au)
Date: Tue Jan 23 16:41:42 2007
Subject: [LINK] Australian Electronic Game Industry Profile
Message-ID: <20070123054129.83FD316091@vscan42.melbpc.org.au>

Australian Electronic Game Industry Profile
November 2006

Prepared for Game Developers’Association of Australia
by Insight Economics Pty Ltd www.insighteconomics.com.au

INDUSTRY PROFILE:  EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

The Australian electronic game industry now generates revenues
of approximately $110 million per annum and directly employs
approximately 1600 people of which 1350 are permanent staff and 250 are
contract staff. 

Both turnover and employment is highly concentrated in the largest eight
companies within the industry, with these companies accounting for over
80% of industry activity. Turnover and employment are also concentrated
in Victoria and Queensland, which collectively are the location for
around 80% of industry activity

The sector is a high skill and high wage industry with average wages
above the national full time earnings average ($57,000 per annum) for
most job classifications within the electronic games industry.

The industry has a high export orientation, with the larger companies
within the sector in particular being primarily export focused. All of
the largest 10 companies are more than 80% export oriented and most of
them are more than 95% export oriented.

Overall industry export revenues are estimated to account for over 90% of
total industry revenues.

Over 85% of companies within the industry now engage in the development
of their own intellectual property assets and half of the companies that
don’t currently do so plan to in the future. 

This expectation is in line with a highly growth oriented outlook within 
the industry. Over 90% of companies expect to grow during the next three
years and 70% of companies expect to increase their level of investment
in own intellectual property development over the next three years.

The key growth challenges identified by companies are in the areas of
attracting skilled staff and in accessing the finance for own
intellectual property development.

--

Cheers Paula
Stephen Loosley
Victoria,
Australia

Message sent using MelbPC WebMail Server



From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Tue Jan 23 19:36:36 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Tue Jan 23 19:39:23 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <20070123115752.f6eb592d.alan@austlii.edu.au>
References: <p0624080ac1dae6407fe3@[192.168.123.167]>
	<20070123115752.f6eb592d.alan@austlii.edu.au>
Message-ID: <5ii197$27khv5@ipmail02.adl2.internode.on.net>

At 11:57 AM 23/01/2007, Alan L Tyree wrote:
>A speaker at a recent meeting of the Banking Law Association even
>railed at the whole idea of consumer protection, even saying "What
>about freedom of contract?" A perfect 19th century concept for the 21st
>century, but very indicative of the thinking in the large City firms.

and why shouldn't they? chicken egg question: who applied this to 
industrial relations first - LJH or the BLA and their ilk? <gawd - 
he's on 7.30 report with Kerry. Can i spew now?>


Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From jwhit at melbpc.org.au  Tue Jan 23 20:24:32 2007
From: jwhit at melbpc.org.au (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Tue Jan 23 20:28:14 2007
Subject: [LINK] Fwd: vip-l: FW: [bits] NCD Explores Emerging Technology
 Trends
Message-ID: <5ii197$27kttl@ipmail02.adl2.internode.on.net>


>         From: Mark Quigley <MQuigley@NCD.GOV
>Subject: NCD Explores Emerging Technology Trends and Provides Strategies for
>Change
>Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 14:48:23 -0500
>
>NEWS RELEASE
>
>NCD #06-528
>
>December 27, 2006
>
>Contact: Mark S. Quigley
>
>202-272-2004
>
>202-272-2074 TTY
>
>
>National Council on Disability Explores Emerging Technology Trends and
>Provides Strategies for Change
>
>WASHINGTON?The National Council on Disability
>(NCD) today released Over the Horizon: Potential Impact of Emerging Trends
>in Information and Communication Technology on Disability Policy and
>Practice
>(http://www.ncd.gov/newsroom/publications/2006/emerging_trends.htm),
>a policy paper that explores key trends in information and communication
>technology, highlights the potential opportunities and problems these trends
>present for people with disabilities, and suggests some strategies to
>maximize opportunities and avoid potential problems and barriers.
>
>The technologies used in information and communication products are
>advancing at an ever increasing rate. Devices are getting smaller, lighter,
>cheaper, and more capable. Electronics are being incorporated into
>practically everything, making a wide variety of products programmable, and
>thus more flexible. Computing power is increasing exponentially.
>
>According to NCD chairperson John R. Vaughn, "The more reliant society
>becomes on technology to perform fundamental aspects of every-day living,
>how we work, communicate, learn, shop, and interact with our environment ,
>the more imperative it is that people with disabilities have access to that
>same technology, and the more costly will be the consequences of failure to
>ensure access."
>
>
>
>This paper discusses technology trends that present opportunities for
>universally designed products, and for improved availability, usability, and
>affordability of assistive technology that can have significant impact on
>quality of life for people with disabilities.
>The first trend discussed is the ever-increasing computational power plus
>the decreasing size and cost of technology-resulting in technology that is
>more portable, affordable, and for which it is easier to build in access.
>Second, advances in interface technology are creating new opportunities for
>better assistive technologies, more accessible mainstream technologies, and
>entirely new ways for users to control both.
>Third, new advances will soon enable people to be connected to communication
>and information networks, at any time, wherever they are-making real time
>assistance only a button press or voice command away. Finally, the
>proliferation of virtual places via the World Wide Web is changing the way
>we approach communications, education, work, and commerce - increasing
>access to goods and services without the need to leave home.
>
>Many of the same technological advances that show great promise of improved
>accessibility, however, also have the potential to create new barriers for
>people with disabilities. The following are some emerging technology trends
>that are causing accessibility problems.
>
>*        Devices will continue to get more
>complex to operate before they get simpler. This is already a problem for
>mainstream users, but even more of a problem for people with cognitive
>disabilities and people who have cognitive decline due to aging.
>
>*        Increased use of digital controls
>(e.g., push buttons used in combination with displays, touch screens, etc.)
>is creating problems for people with blindness, cognitive, and other
>disabilities.
>
>*        The shrinking size of products is
>creating problems for people with physical and visual disabilities.
>
>*        The trend toward closed systems, for
>digital rights management or security reasons, is preventing people from
>adapting devices to make them accessible, or from attaching assistive
>technology so they can access the devices.
>
>*        Increasing use of automated
>self-service devices, especially in unattended locations, is posing problems
>for some, and absolute barriers for others.
>
>*        The decrease of face-to-face
>interaction, and increase in e-business, e-government, e-learning,
>e-shopping, etc., is resulting in a growing portion of our everyday world
>and services becoming inaccessible to those who are unable to access these
>Internet-based places and services, particularly when the Web sites are not
>created in accordance with Web accessibility standards.
>
>In addition, the incorporation of new
>technologies into products is causing products to advance beyond current
>accessibility techniques and strategies. The rapid churn of mainstream
>technologies, that is, the rapid replacement of one product by another, is
>so fast that neither assistive technology nor technology-specific
>accessibility standards are keeping pace. Without action, the gap between
>the mainstream technology products being introduced and the assistive
>technologies necessary to make them accessible will increase, as will the
>numbers of technologies for which no accessibility adaptations are
>available.
>
>The paper sets forth the following issues for action:
>
>
>*        Maximize the effectiveness of assistive
>technologies and lower their cost. Key strategy:
>Foster results oriented R & D all the way to commercial availability.
>
>
>*        Maximize the accessibility of
>mainstream information and communication technology products, so that people
>with disabilities and seniors can use standard products as they encounter
>them. Key strategies:
>Increase funding for research, proof of concept, and commercial hardening of
>approaches to accessible design of mainstream products to advance
>understanding in this area.
>
>
>*        Ensure that access to the Internet and
>other virtual environments is provided, as it has been to physical places of
>public accommodation.
>
>
>*        Address new barriers to the
>accessibility of digital media caused by digital
>rights management, including when visual and audio rights are sold
>separately.
>
>
>*        Base all policy regarding information
>and communication technology accessibility on a
>realization of the importance of the business
>case. Where a solid business case cannot be
>built based on market forces alone, create
>accessibility regulations and effective
>enforcement mechanisms that provide a clear
>profit advantage to those who comply and a disadvantage to those who do not.
>
>
>*        Create accessibility laws and
>regulations that are not technology specific,
>but are based on the functions of a device.
>
>
>*        Ensure that up-to-date information
>about accessible mainstream technology and
>assistive technology is available to and being used by the public.
>
>
>"The policies we adopt today will determine
>whether the technology of the future empowers
>people with disabilities, enabling them to work,
>learn, communicate, shop, and live independent,
>productive lives as full and equal members of society," Vaughn concluded.
>
>
>
>For more information, please contact Julie
>Carroll or Mark S. Quigley at 202-272-2004 or 202-272-2074 TTY.
>
># # #
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Mark S. Quigley
>
>Director of Communications
>
>National Council on Disability
>
>1331 F Street, NW Suite 850
>
>Washington, DC 20004

Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. 
Without the seed, there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From ivan at itrundle.com  Tue Jan 23 23:08:16 2007
From: ivan at itrundle.com (Ivan Trundle)
Date: Tue Jan 23 23:08:33 2007
Subject: [LINK] SurfControl woes
Message-ID: <2EBD2BCE-84CD-4F1A-8CC9-E9923EAC4A4F@itrundle.com>

Esteemed Linkers

Having just discovered that a major commercial website that I've been  
working on has been classified by SurfControl.com as a 'personal/ 
dating site', I'm asking Linkers if they have experience of or is  
using SurfControl in their work environment (or home, I suppose...)  
and has information or experience of what it takes to have a domain  
re-categorised (yes, I've checked out their website, and submitted my  
site for 'consideration', on bended knee with all due deference -  
I've had zero feedback to date).

I find it remarkable that sites are categorised in such a slipshod  
way, but then I suppose I should have known better coming from a  
background of libraries (and anti-filtering). Some years ago, my boss  
was continually frustrated by the various levels of filtering that  
prevented her from communicating, all because her first name was  
'Virginia' (a good thing that she wasn't trying to sell shitake  
mushrooms at the same time). We even took the whole exercise to a  
rather memorable Senate Estimates Committee on censorship matters,  
but the end result was not as cut and dried as we had hoped.

I digress. I'm keen to get some anecdotal evidence about  
SurfControl's methods of assessment, deployment, etc: if only so that  
the business that I work for can have a chance to compete. I even  
began to wonder if a competitor submitted our site's URL...

Looking for quick solutions, I've considered offering clients who  
can't get around their IT department's insistence on using  
SurfControl without fine-tuning (does it offer any on a local level?)  
the option to access our IP address instead, but have no idea if this  
is futile or not. Further, I was even considering setting up an  
alternative nonsensical domain to circumvent the problem for those  
with stubborn sys-admins.

And no, the site in question is NOT a personal/dating site, but  
rather a forum for collaboration and exchange of ideas. Oddly,  
SurfControl would have very limited access to the site that is  
currently blocked, since it is all wrapped up in a layer of password- 
protected - apart from the home page, which extolls the virtues of  
online collaboration etc.

iT

--
Ivan Trundle
http://itrundle.com ivan@itrundle.com
ph: +61 (0)418 244 259 fx: +61 (0)2 6286 8742
skype: callto://ivanovitchk


From kim.holburn at gmail.com  Tue Jan 23 23:33:16 2007
From: kim.holburn at gmail.com (Kim Holburn)
Date: Tue Jan 23 23:33:39 2007
Subject: [LINK] SurfControl woes
In-Reply-To: <2EBD2BCE-84CD-4F1A-8CC9-E9923EAC4A4F@itrundle.com>
References: <2EBD2BCE-84CD-4F1A-8CC9-E9923EAC4A4F@itrundle.com>
Message-ID: <2D0AEF5B-6B99-41BA-8229-EB4234909982@gmail.com>


On 2007/Jan/23, at 1:08 PM, Ivan Trundle wrote:
> various levels of filtering that prevented her from communicating,  
> all because her first name was 'Virginia' (a good thing that she  
> wasn't trying to sell shitake mushrooms at the same time). We even  
> took the whole exercise to a rather memorable Senate Estimates  
> Committee on censorship matters, but the end result was not as cut  
> and dried as we had hoped.

A site I was just browsing spells them shiitake probably to get  
around that very problem ;-)

--
Kim Holburn
IT Network & Security Consultant
Ph: +39 06 855 4294  M: +39 3342707610
mailto:kim@holburn.net  aim://kimholburn
skype://kholburn - PGP Public Key on request

Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny.
                           -- Lloyd Biggle, Jr. Analog, Apr 1961



From stephen at melbpc.org.au  Wed Jan 24 01:38:04 2007
From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen@melbpc.org.au)
Date: Wed Jan 24 01:38:22 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
Message-ID: <20070123143804.9BEBF162CA@vscan42.melbpc.org.au>

At 11:57 AM 23/01/2007, Alan L Tyree wrote:

> A speaker at a recent meeting of the Banking Law Association
> even railed at the whole idea of consumer protection ..

Even eBay are now insisting sellers offer 'secure' consumer protection:

--
General Announcements
http://www.ebay.com.au

*** Coming soon: Safe payment requirements for new sellers ***  
   
23 January 2007 | 10:29AM EST

Coming soon we will require sellers who register after 17 January 2007 to 
offer at least one preferred safe payment method of either PayPal or 
merchant credit card facilities, in their listings. Other additional 
payment options which are currently permitted onsite are still permitted. 

This requirement will be enforced starting mid March 2007. 

Please note this will not affect existing sellers who registered before 
17th January 2007. 

As described in our Web Smart: Safe Online Shopping Guide, eBay strongly 
encourages sellers to offer payments through PayPal – it's not only 
convenient to use but it also offers buyers and sellers industry leading 
protection against fraud and theft of financial data. 

Offline payment methods generally don't offer the same level of 
protection or convenience as online payments. Nonetheless, they may be 
appropriate for certain types of transactions and sellers may still use 
listings to offer valid forms of payment, including bank deposit, 
personal or bank cheques, money orders or cash on delivery. 

This new safe payment method requirement will further enhance the safe-
trading experience on eBay for the whole community. 

For more details, please visit our revised Accepted Payments Policy. 

Regards,
The eBay Team 
-- 

Cheers all ..
Stephen Loosley
Victoria, Australia


Message sent using MelbPC WebMail Server



From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au  Wed Jan 24 07:13:40 2007
From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry)
Date: Wed Jan 24 07:13:49 2007
Subject: [LINK] Fwd: [oss4lib-discuss] Open Source: participatory culture
References: <45B63332.7070101@usherbrooke.ca>
Message-ID: <BFD3868A-AC3C-44A9-8A0A-FC890EE449FB@tony-barry.emu.id.au>

Some linkers might be interested in this discussion?

Tony


Begin forwarded message:

> From: John Taylor-Johnston <eslcafe@usherbrooke.ca>
> Date: 24 January 2007 3:09:22 AM
> To: oss4lib-discuss@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: [oss4lib-discuss] Open Source: participatory culture
>
> Hi all,
> I'm looking at the notion of Open Source, and the Internet, as a
> participatory culture - the idea that OS & the Web are a hippie effort
> of sorts.
> Can anyone think of any articles that might discuss this?
> John Taylor-Johnston
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ---
> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
> Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to  
> share your
> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash
> http://www.techsay.com/default.php? 
> page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> oss4lib-discuss@lists.sourceforge.net
>
>
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/oss4lib-discuss
> see also http://oss4lib.org/

phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au
http://tony-barry.emu.id.au


From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au  Wed Jan 24 07:14:17 2007
From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry)
Date: Wed Jan 24 07:14:26 2007
Subject: [LINK] Fwd: [oss4lib-discuss] Open Source: participatory culture
References: <Pine.OSX.4.58.0701231115080.10750@purple.nascom.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <94CC4A3F-64D5-471B-9378-4E36C1BE2179@tony-barry.emu.id.au>



Begin forwarded message:

> From: Joe Hourcle <oneiros@grace.nascom.nasa.gov>
> Date: 24 January 2007 3:40:56 AM
> To: John Taylor-Johnston <eslcafe@usherbrooke.ca>
> Cc: oss4lib-discuss@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [oss4lib-discuss] Open Source: participatory culture
>
>
>
> On Tue, 23 Jan 2007, John Taylor-Johnston wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>> I'm looking at the notion of Open Source, and the Internet, as a
>> participatory culture - the idea that OS & the Web are a hippie  
>> effort
>> of sorts.
>> Can anyone think of any articles that might discuss this?
>
>
> Are you looking for scholarly literature, or just anything?
>
> I mean, there'd Eric Raymond's "The Cathedral and the Bazaar"
> <http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/>
>
>
> For actual research, a quick literature search turns up:
>
> Sandeep Krishnamurthy's "Cave or Community? An Empirical  
> Examimation of
> 100 Mature Open Source Projects"
> <http://www.firstmonday.org/issues/issue7_6/krishnamurthy/>
>
> Guido Hertel, et.al  "Motivation of software developers in Open Source
> projects: an Internet-based survey of contributors to the Linux  
> kernel"
> <doi:10.1016/S0048-7333(03)00047-7>
>
> Josh Lerner and Jean Tirole "Some Simple Economics of Open Source"
> <doi:10.1111/1467-6451.00174>
>
>
> Also, unpublished:
>
> Katherine Steward and Sanjay Gosain, "Impacts of Idealogy, Trust and
> Communication on Effectivenes in Open Source Software Development  
> Teams"
> <http://citeseer.comp.nus.edu.sg/stewart03impacts.html>
>
>
>
> ... do a literature search, and you should find plenty of related
> articles.
>
> I'd also suggest that you drop the term 'hippie' as it has many more
> connotations than just communal efforts, and your use of the term  
> suggests
> that you may have a bias in your research.
>
>
> -----
> Joe Hourcle
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ---
> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
> Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to  
> share your
> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash
> http://www.techsay.com/default.php? 
> page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> oss4lib-discuss@lists.sourceforge.net
>
>
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/oss4lib-discuss
> see also http://oss4lib.org/

phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au
http://tony-barry.emu.id.au


From tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au  Wed Jan 24 07:14:26 2007
From: tony at tony-barry.emu.id.au (Antony Barry)
Date: Wed Jan 24 07:14:40 2007
Subject: [LINK] Fwd: [oss4lib-discuss] Open Source: participatory culture
References: <908893006339C0409519E4065DF3B24903187ABE@mailserver.ualibrary.ualberta.ca>
Message-ID: <59505DEB-384D-4647-987B-7981BB8BA8B3@tony-barry.emu.id.au>



Begin forwarded message:

> From: "Binkley, Peter" <Peter.Binkley@ualberta.ca>
> Date: 24 January 2007 3:32:57 AM
> To: "John Taylor-Johnston" <eslcafe@usherbrooke.ca>, <oss4lib- 
> discuss@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Subject: Re: [oss4lib-discuss] Open Source: participatory culture
>
> For the hippie side of this, forgive me for plugging my brother's
> forthcoming book:
> http://www.dukeupress.edu/books.php3?isbn=978-0-8223-3989-2 -  
> looking at
> the connections between counterculture and consumer culture in the 70s
> (things like Whole Earth Catalog etc.). It'll be out in March.
>
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: oss4lib-discuss-bounces@lists.sourceforge.net
> [mailto:oss4lib-discuss-bounces@lists.sourceforge.net] On Behalf Of  
> John
> Taylor-Johnston
> Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 9:09 AM
> To: oss4lib-discuss@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: [oss4lib-discuss] Open Source: participatory culture
>
> Hi all,
> I'm looking at the notion of Open Source, and the Internet, as a
> participatory culture - the idea that OS & the Web are a hippie effort
> of sorts.
> Can anyone think of any articles that might discuss this?
> John Taylor-Johnston
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> --
> -
> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join
> SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share  
> your
> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash
> http://www.techsay.com/default.php? 
> page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDE
> V
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> oss4lib-discuss@lists.sourceforge.net
>
>
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/oss4lib-discuss
> see also http://oss4lib.org/
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ---
> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
> Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to  
> share your
> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash
> http://www.techsay.com/default.php? 
> page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> oss4lib-discuss@lists.sourceforge.net
>
>
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/oss4lib-discuss
> see also http://oss4lib.org/

phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au
http://tony-barry.emu.id.au


From stil at stilgherrian.com  Wed Jan 24 07:32:50 2007
From: stil at stilgherrian.com (Stilgherrian)
Date: Wed Jan 24 07:33:09 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <20070123143804.9BEBF162CA@vscan42.melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <C1DCBC22.5D15D%stil@stilgherrian.com>

On 24/1/07 1:38 AM, "stephen@melbpc.org.au" <stephen@melbpc.org.au> wrote:
> *** Coming soon: Safe payment requirements for new sellers ***
>    
> 23 January 2007 | 10:29AM EST
> 
> Coming soon we will require sellers who register after 17 January 2007 to
> offer at least one preferred safe payment method of either PayPal or
> merchant credit card facilities, in their listings. [snip]

And since eBay owns PayPal, and since you can't get merchant facilities from
a bank without a written business plan and a whole bunch of paperwork that a
start-up home-based business will find difficult to put together -- and even
more so if you just want to flog off a few un-needed items from the shed! --
this will further entrench eBay's "vertical integration" of the market.

And it's all done in the name of "safe payment". Sweet.

Moreover, since PayPal isn't a bank, presumably you have far less consumer
protection that when dealing with a bank. And if there's a dispute, who do
you go to...? Last time I ran something on eBay,  I discovered that my
payments were being run through... where was it? Oh yes, eBay International
AG in Switzerland.

Chase that one, folks!

Stil


-- 
Stilgherrian http://stilgherrian.com/
Internet, IT and Media Consulting, Sydney, Australia
mobile +61 407 623 600
fax +61 2 9516 5630
ABN 25 231 641 421





From alan at austlii.edu.au  Wed Jan 24 08:31:37 2007
From: alan at austlii.edu.au (Alan L Tyree)
Date: Wed Jan 24 08:33:11 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <45B679B2.8040407@lannet.com.au>
References: <C1DCBC22.5D15D%stil@stilgherrian.com>
	<45B679B2.8040407@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <20070124083137.e6a42508.alan@austlii.edu.au>

On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:10:10 +1100
Howard Lowndes <lannet@lannet.com.au> wrote:

> 
> 
> Stilgherrian wrote:
> > On 24/1/07 1:38 AM, "stephen@melbpc.org.au" <stephen@melbpc.org.au>
> > wrote:
> >> *** Coming soon: Safe payment requirements for new sellers ***
> >>    
> >> 23 January 2007 | 10:29AM EST
> >>
> >> Coming soon we will require sellers who register after 17 January
> >> 2007 to offer at least one preferred safe payment method of either
> >> PayPal or merchant credit card facilities, in their listings.
> >> [snip]
> > 
> > And since eBay owns PayPal, and since you can't get merchant
> > facilities from a bank without a written business plan and a whole
> > bunch of paperwork that a start-up home-based business will find
> > difficult to put together -- and even more so if you just want to
> > flog off a few un-needed items from the shed! -- this will further
> > entrench eBay's "vertical integration" of the market.
> 
> Add to that the requirement to lodge a $250,000 surety - at least,
> that was what the Comm Bank wanted.
> 
> > 
> > And it's all done in the name of "safe payment". Sweet.
> > 
> > Moreover, since PayPal isn't a bank, presumably you have far less
> > consumer protection that when dealing with a bank. And if there's a
> > dispute, who do you go to...? Last time I ran something on eBay,  I

You are right about less consumer protection, not because PayPal isn't
a bank, but because it does not subscribe to the voluntary EFT Code of
Conduct. Question 69 in the ASIC discussion paper is:

69. What steps could/should be taken to broaden EFT Code membership?

It would be helpful if people like you and others on this list would
make a submission to ASIC to the effect that the Code should be made
mandatory for all providers offering payment services to the public.

This is a very real issue, since only the banks, building societies and
credit unions have subscribed to the Code. They were essentially forced
to do so - at the time when the Code was originally developed, they
were the only payment providers and they were given the "Godfather
option": voluntary subscription was the "offer they could not refuse"
since the alternative was legislation (close enough to death as far as
they were concerned!).

Alan

> > discovered that my payments were being run through... where was it?
> > Oh yes, eBay International AG in Switzerland.




> > 
> > Chase that one, folks!
> > 
> > Stil
> > 
> > 
> 
> -- 
> Howard.
> LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people
> <http://lannetlinux.com> When you want a computer system that works,
> just choose Linux; When you want a computer system that works, just,
> choose Microsoft. --
> Flatter government, not fatter government; abolish the Australian
> states.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Link mailing list
> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au
> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link
> 


-- 
Alan L Tyree                    http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel: +61 2 4782 2670            Mobile: +61 427 486 206
Fax: +61 2 4782 7092            FWD: 615662
From brendansweb at optusnet.com.au  Wed Jan 24 09:13:55 2007
From: brendansweb at optusnet.com.au (Brendan Scott)
Date: Wed Jan 24 09:02:18 2007
Subject: [LINK] Fwd: [oss4lib-discuss] Open Source: participatory culture
In-Reply-To: <59505DEB-384D-4647-987B-7981BB8BA8B3@tony-barry.emu.id.au>
References: <908893006339C0409519E4065DF3B24903187ABE@mailserver.ualibrary.ualberta.ca>
	<59505DEB-384D-4647-987B-7981BB8BA8B3@tony-barry.emu.id.au>
Message-ID: <45B688A3.3060401@optusnet.com.au>

Mmmmm

A few years ago a company which shall not be named tried to spread a meme that open source was communism.  While this is superficially attractive (since everyone is sharing), my personal view is that open source is more akin to a purist form of free market ideology.  At the very least, the selling price of open source software ($0) is predicted by the free market economic theory (ie the marginal cost of reproduction of a digital work).  The rules which define what open source software is also have something in common with those defining a free market.

Of course, it has the most to do with common sense.  If you are spending money, why would you spend it on a product the price of which is artificially inflated and the vendor of which will simply use your money to further inflate the price?

Brendan


Antony Barry wrote:
> 
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
>> From: "Binkley, Peter" <Peter.Binkley@ualberta.ca>
>> Date: 24 January 2007 3:32:57 AM
>> To: "John Taylor-Johnston" <eslcafe@usherbrooke.ca>,
>> <oss4lib-discuss@lists.sourceforge.net>
>> Subject: Re: [oss4lib-discuss] Open Source: participatory culture
>>
>> For the hippie side of this, forgive me for plugging my brother's
>> forthcoming book:
>> http://www.dukeupress.edu/books.php3?isbn=978-0-8223-3989-2 - looking at
>> the connections between counterculture and consumer culture in the 70s
>> (things like Whole Earth Catalog etc.). It'll be out in March.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: oss4lib-discuss-bounces@lists.sourceforge.net
>> [mailto:oss4lib-discuss-bounces@lists.sourceforge.net] On Behalf Of John
>> Taylor-Johnston
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 9:09 AM
>> To: oss4lib-discuss@lists.sourceforge.net
>> Subject: [oss4lib-discuss] Open Source: participatory culture
>>
>> Hi all,
>> I'm looking at the notion of Open Source, and the Internet, as a
>> participatory culture - the idea that OS & the Web are a hippie effort
>> of sorts.
>> Can anyone think of any articles that might discuss this?
>> John Taylor-Johnston
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join
>> SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your
>> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash
>> http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDE
>> V
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> oss4lib-discuss@lists.sourceforge.net
>>
>>
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/oss4lib-discuss
>> see also http://oss4lib.org/
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
>> Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to
>> share your
>> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash
>> http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> oss4lib-discuss@lists.sourceforge.net
>>
>>
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/oss4lib-discuss
>> see also http://oss4lib.org/
> 
> phone : 02 6241 7659 | mailto:me@Tony-Barry.emu.id.au
> mobile: 04 1242 0397 | mailto:tony.barry@alianet.alia.org.au
> http://tony-barry.emu.id.au
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Link mailing list
> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au
> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link
> 


From marghanita at ramin.com.au  Wed Jan 24 09:16:37 2007
From: marghanita at ramin.com.au (Marghanita da Cruz)
Date: Wed Jan 24 09:17:18 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <20070124083137.e6a42508.alan@austlii.edu.au>
References: <C1DCBC22.5D15D%stil@stilgherrian.com>	<45B679B2.8040407@lannet.com.au>
	<20070124083137.e6a42508.alan@austlii.edu.au>
Message-ID: <45B68945.9040600@ramin.com.au>

Alan L Tyree wrote:
<snip>
> It would be helpful if people like you and others on this list would
> make a submission to ASIC to the effect that the Code should be made
> mandatory for all providers offering payment services to the public.
<snip>
Alan,

I was hoping you and Roger, will construct the link discussion into 
Lucid submissions.

Personally, I would prefer to see a good code as a differentiator 
between financial institutions not some watered down compliance document.

Marghanita
-- 
Marghanita da Cruz
http://www.ramin.com.au/
Telephone: 0414-869202
Ramin Communications Pty Ltd
ABN: 027-089-713-084



From reagan at whatever.net.au  Wed Jan 24 09:49:06 2007
From: reagan at whatever.net.au (Reagan Blundell)
Date: Wed Jan 24 09:49:34 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <20070123043816.GP26390@taz.net.au>
References: <C1DB9A06.D587F%eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au>	<45B55C2A.6000704@ramin.com.au>	<20070123122437.92f4b26e.alan@austlii.edu.au>	<45B56C28.5090300@ramin.com.au>
	<20070123043816.GP26390@taz.net.au>
Message-ID: <45B690E2.2010701@whatever.net.au>

Craig Sanders wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 23, 2007 at 01:00:08PM +1100, Marghanita da Cruz wrote:
>> With regard to physing, if a username/password is captured in a
>> phishing scam, don't they also need to fake the IP address?
> 
> nope.  most people don't have a static IP address, they get a dynamically
> assigned IP whenever they log in to the net.
> 
> AFAIK, no bank even has an option allowing the user to limit the IP
> address(es) that they may login from. i wish they did, i'd find it
> useful - i have my own /24s and only ever login to my bank from home.
> 

The bank I work for does,  but we're an Investment, rather than a
retail/high-street bank (or at least the dept I'm in is - we also have a
retail branch).  So the amounts of money being traded are a bit more
than your Joe-Sixpack's balance in his savings account, and our
customers are more likely to be on static IPs.
From Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au  Wed Jan 24 10:45:38 2007
From: Roger.Clarke at xamax.com.au (Roger Clarke)
Date: Wed Jan 24 10:54:10 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <45B68E0A.2030208@lannet.com.au>
References: <C1DCBC22.5D15D%stil@stilgherrian.com>
	<45B679B2.8040407@lannet.com.au>
	<20070124083137.e6a42508.alan@austlii.edu.au>
	<45B68E0A.2030208@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <p0624080ac1dc4dc4a515@[192.168.123.167]>

At 9:36 +1100 24/1/07, Howard Lowndes wrote:
>  ... and what is AFSL?

Australian Financial System Licence, I think.

The site of the responsible regulator, ASIC, is hopeless on the 
matter.  (It may be fine if you know what it is, and know you want 
one).

After a quick Google, from:
http://www.compliance-training.com.au/index.cgi?tid=16

"Everything you need to know about obtaining an AFS licence or 
varying an existing AFS licence is set out in this article written by 
Holley Nethercote. We tell you the approximate cost, expected 
timeframes, and processes that you'll encounter as you obtain or vary 
your licence. We draw on our years of experience and provide tips and 
tricks to help make the process as painless as possible for you.

"Click here to download the article, which appeared in Money 
Management in 2006".

http://www.holleynethercote.com.au/downloader.cgi?%D9q%86T%20%C5%16n%84%E2%F5%F7P%83%EE%99%B5P%F8%A5%13%F6Q:96:uploads%2Ffile%2FGetting%20and%20varying%20your%20AFS%20licence.pdf:0

-- 
Roger Clarke                  http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/
			            
Xamax Consultancy Pty Ltd      78 Sidaway St, Chapman ACT 2611 AUSTRALIA
                    Tel: +61 2 6288 1472, and 6288 6916
mailto:Roger.Clarke@xamax.com.au                http://www.xamax.com.au/

Visiting Professor in Info Science & Eng  Australian National University
Visiting Professor in the eCommerce Program      University of Hong Kong
Visiting Professor in the Cyberspace Law & Policy Centre      Uni of NSW
From link at todd.inoz.com  Wed Jan 24 10:48:20 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Wed Jan 24 10:56:15 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <45B679B2.8040407@lannet.com.au>
References: <C1DCBC22.5D15D%stil@stilgherrian.com>
	<45B679B2.8040407@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070124104756.034adca0@wheresmymailserver.com>

At 08:10 AM 24/01/2007, Howard Lowndes wrote:


>Stilgherrian wrote:
>>On 24/1/07 1:38 AM, "stephen@melbpc.org.au" <stephen@melbpc.org.au> wrote:
>>>*** Coming soon: Safe payment requirements for new sellers ***
>>>
>>>23 January 2007 | 10:29AM EST
>>>
>>>Coming soon we will require sellers who register after 17 January 2007 to
>>>offer at least one preferred safe payment method of either PayPal or
>>>merchant credit card facilities, in their listings. [snip]
>>And since eBay owns PayPal, and since you can't get merchant facilities from
>>a bank without a written business plan and a whole bunch of paperwork that a
>>start-up home-based business will find difficult to put together -- and even
>>more so if you just want to flog off a few un-needed items from the shed! --
>>this will further entrench eBay's "vertical integration" of the market.
>
>Add to that the requirement to lodge a $250,000 surety - at least, that 
>was what the Comm Bank wanted.

Must be new.  We had merchant facilities for some time and never had to.


From link at todd.inoz.com  Wed Jan 24 10:53:58 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Wed Jan 24 10:56:26 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <45B68E0A.2030208@lannet.com.au>
References: <C1DCBC22.5D15D%stil@stilgherrian.com>
	<45B679B2.8040407@lannet.com.au>
	<20070124083137.e6a42508.alan@austlii.edu.au>
	<45B68E0A.2030208@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070124105254.034b9d58@wheresmymailserver.com>

At 09:36 AM 24/01/2007, Howard Lowndes wrote:
I notice this from the foot of my Paypal account page:

>PayPal Australia Pty Limited ABN 93 111 195 389 (AFSL 304962)
>
>So they do have a business established in AU and subject to AU laws, and 
>what is AFSL?

Australian Foreign Suckers League?


Well the AF is right :)

Just means it's an offshore company permitted to trade in Australia as if 
it was a locally registered company, but is not.

What's an airfare to Switzerland cost?


From link at todd.inoz.com  Wed Jan 24 10:55:26 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Wed Jan 24 10:56:35 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <45B690E2.2010701@whatever.net.au>
References: <C1DB9A06.D587F%eric.scheid@ironclad.net.au>
	<45B55C2A.6000704@ramin.com.au>
	<20070123122437.92f4b26e.alan@austlii.edu.au>
	<45B56C28.5090300@ramin.com.au> <20070123043816.GP26390@taz.net.au>
	<45B690E2.2010701@whatever.net.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070124105440.04cf5650@wheresmymailserver.com>


> > AFAIK, no bank even has an option allowing the user to limit the IP
> > address(es) that they may login from. i wish they did, i'd find it
> > useful - i have my own /24s and only ever login to my bank from home.
> >
>
>The bank I work for does,  but we're an Investment, rather than a
>retail/high-street bank (or at least the dept I'm in is - we also have a
>retail branch).  So the amounts of money being traded are a bit more
>than your Joe-Sixpack's balance in his savings account, and our
>customers are more likely to be on static IPs.

I rather like that.  Considering where-ever I go and login from, it's 
always my laptop, and always via an openvpn tunnel to either a server on my 
network or a friends network, and always to and from a fixed IP in an 
address range I control :)


From link at todd.inoz.com  Wed Jan 24 10:52:31 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Wed Jan 24 10:56:47 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <20070123143804.9BEBF162CA@vscan42.melbpc.org.au>
References: <20070123143804.9BEBF162CA@vscan42.melbpc.org.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070124105106.034ad780@wheresmymailserver.com>

At 01:38 AM 24/01/2007, stephen@melbpc.org.au wrote:
>At 11:57 AM 23/01/2007, Alan L Tyree wrote:
>
>Even eBay are now insisting sellers offer 'secure' consumer protection:
>
>Coming soon we will require sellers who register after 17 January 2007 to
>offer at least one preferred safe payment method of either PayPal or
>merchant credit card facilities, in their listings. Other additional
>payment options which are currently permitted onsite are still permitted.

Ahh great.  More buyers being told "But it's under $25, you don't qualify 
for buyer protection so sorry, too bad.  Buy something else, better luck 
next time."



From drose at nla.gov.au  Wed Jan 24 11:10:49 2007
From: drose at nla.gov.au (Daniel Rose)
Date: Wed Jan 24 11:10:58 2007
Subject: FW: [LINK] SurfControl woes
Message-ID: <3F8819281E85774CA6CE6F4FB842874F0456FA4B@gimli.shire.nla.gov.au>

I have been to sydney for a day's training with SC and it's not very
hard to adjust the settings for one's own network at all.  However,
getting surfcontrol themselves to remove sites from their own lists is
probably harder than it should be.

We use SC's "Riskfilters" here to cull almost all the incoming spam.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: link-bounces@anumail0.anu.edu.au 
> [mailto:link-bounces@anumail0.anu.edu.au] On Behalf Of Howard Lowndes
> Posted At: Wednesday, 24 January 2007 6:54 AM
> Posted To: Link List
> Conversation: [LINK] SurfControl woes
> Subject: Re: [LINK] SurfControl woes
> 
> 
> One of my clients that I do the Linux work for, has SC on its 
> W2K3 server, I don't know why because it doesn't provide any 
> useful functionality as far as I can see, other than 
> monitoring emails - they don't proxy web surfing through it.  
> That's probably because it's a church school and the holy 
> honchos sold the idea to them as a Good Thing (tm).  The fact 
> is, that the Windows sysadmin really doesn't have a clue 
> about how to tune it, even configure it, so my bet is that 
> the problem is not stubborn sysadmins, rather incompetent 
> sysadmins, but there again, what else can you expect from 
> Windows sysadmins...
> 
> Ivan Trundle wrote:
> > Esteemed Linkers
> > 
> > Having just discovered that a major commercial website that 
> I've been 
> > working on has been classified by SurfControl.com as a 
> > 'personal/dating site', I'm asking Linkers if they have 
> experience of 
> > or is using SurfControl in their work environment (or home, I 
> > suppose...) and has information or experience of what it 
> takes to have 
> > a domain re-categorised (yes, I've checked out their website, and 
> > submitted my site for 'consideration', on bended knee with all due 
> > deference - I've had zero feedback to date).
> > 
> > I find it remarkable that sites are categorised in such a slipshod 
> > way, but then I suppose I should have known better coming from a 
> > background of libraries (and anti-filtering). Some years 
> ago, my boss 
> > was continually frustrated by the various levels of filtering that 
> > prevented her from communicating, all because her first name was 
> > 'Virginia' (a good thing that she wasn't trying to sell shitake 
> > mushrooms at the same time). We even took the whole exercise to a 
> > rather memorable Senate Estimates Committee on censorship 
> matters, but 
> > the end result was not as cut and dried as we had hoped.
> > 
> > I digress. I'm keen to get some anecdotal evidence about 
> SurfControl's 
> > methods of assessment, deployment, etc: if only so that the 
> business 
> > that I work for can have a chance to compete. I even began 
> to wonder 
> > if a competitor submitted our site's URL...
> > 
> > Looking for quick solutions, I've considered offering clients who 
> > can't get around their IT department's insistence on using 
> SurfControl 
> > without fine-tuning (does it offer any on a local level?) 
> the option 
> > to access our IP address instead, but have no idea if this 
> is futile or not.
> > Further, I was even considering setting up an alternative 
> nonsensical 
> > domain to circumvent the problem for those with stubborn sys-admins.
> > 
> > And no, the site in question is NOT a personal/dating site, 
> but rather 
> > a forum for collaboration and exchange of ideas. Oddly, SurfControl 
> > would have very limited access to the site that is 
> currently blocked, 
> > since it is all wrapped up in a layer of password-protected - apart 
> > from the home page, which extolls the virtues of online 
> collaboration etc.
> > 
> > iT
> > 
> > --
> > Ivan Trundle
> > http://itrundle.com ivan@itrundle.com
> > ph: +61 (0)418 244 259 fx: +61 (0)2 6286 8742
> > skype: callto://ivanovitchk
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Link mailing list
> > Link@mailman.anu.edu.au
> > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link
> > 
> 
> --
> Howard.
> LANNet Computing Associates - Your Linux people 
> <http://lannetlinux.com> When you want a computer system that 
> works, just choose Linux; When you want a computer system 
> that works, just, choose Microsoft.
> --
> Flatter government, not fatter government; abolish the 
> Australian states.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Link mailing list
> Link@mailman.anu.edu.au
> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/link
> 

From jwhit at janwhitaker.com  Wed Jan 24 15:04:31 2007
From: jwhit at janwhitaker.com (Jan Whitaker)
Date: Wed Jan 24 15:08:31 2007
Subject: [LINK] M$ and wikipedia - no-no
Message-ID: <5ii197$27viko@ipmail02.adl2.internode.on.net>

Microsoft offers cash for Wikipedia edit
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070123/ap_on_hi_te/microsoft_wikipedia
By BRIAN BERGSTEIN, AP Technology Writer Tue Jan 23, 5:14 PM ET

Microsoft Corp. landed in the
Wikipedia doghouse Tuesday after it offered to pay a blogger to 
change technical articles on the community-produced Web encyclopedia site.

While Wikipedia is known as the encyclopedia that anyone can tweak, 
founder Jimmy Wales and his cadre of volunteer editors, writers and 
moderators have blocked public-relations firms, campaign workers and 
anyone else perceived as having a conflict of interest from posting 
fluff or slanting entries. So paying for Wikipedia copy is considered 
a definite no-no.
[snip]

Jan Whitaker
JLWhitaker Associates, Melbourne Victoria
jwhit@janwhitaker.com
business: http://www.janwhitaker.com
personal: http://www.janwhitaker.com/personal/
commentary: http://janwhitaker.com/jansblog/

'Seed planting is often the most important step. Without the seed, 
there is no plant.' - JW, April 2005
_ __________________ _
From glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au  Wed Jan 24 17:12:25 2007
From: glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au (Glen Turner)
Date: Wed Jan 24 17:12:45 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <p0624080ac1dae6407fe3@[192.168.123.167]>
References: <p0624080ac1dae6407fe3@[192.168.123.167]>
Message-ID: <45B6F8C9.6060406@aarnet.edu.au>

Roger Clarke wrote:
> At 6:50 +1100 14/1/07, Alan L Tyree wrote:
>> I'm looking for some help here. I'm writing a submission to ASIC on the
>> review of the EFT Code of Conduct. One of the things that Industry has
>> been pushing for is to make consumers liable for losses caused by
>> computers infected with malware.
>> The argument I wish to make is that consumers are hopelessly ill
>> equipped to secure their (Windows) computers. ...
> 
> 
> [Just as I'm nearing finalisation of a draft paper on the topic - I'll
> post an RFC shortly - up bobs this useful article.  Comments interspersed]

Since this is a code, there's no reason it can't contain
specifics.  I don't buy into the argument that the banks
will do the right thing if faced by the liability. The banks
face the total liability now, and yet aren't uniformly doing
simple things like:

 - script-defeating login procedures
 - multi-factor authentication of transactions
 - making it more difficult to intercept secret data (such as PINs)
 - allowing "read only" accounts for people merely interested in
   their account balances whilst budgeting
 - issuing user certificates rather than using low quality
   certificate authorities
 - black listing browser versions with known bugs
 - questioning transactions which appear from differing
   ISPs in a short period

I really think ASIC needs to create a minimum list.  Even if
banks accept full liability this does not mean that the customer
faces no costs -- for a welfare recipient with a small balance or
for a traveller the speed of the bank's response is important.
So there is social good beyond the liability to be gained in
restricting internet banking fraud.

The computer industry has to take some responsibility here.
Look at all the trouble Microsoft has gone to in Windows Vista
to create a secure channel for viewing high definition video.
And yet they can't even offer a secure channel for getting
a PIN to a bank.


-- 
 Glen Turner         Tel: (08) 8303 3936 or +61 8 8303 3936
 Australia's Academic & Research Network  www.aarnet.edu.au
From carl at xena.IPAustralia.gov.au  Wed Jan 24 17:19:24 2007
From: carl at xena.IPAustralia.gov.au (Carl Makin)
Date: Wed Jan 24 17:19:17 2007
Subject: [LINK] Analogue TV frequencies not just used for TV,
	so spanner in works of spectrum sale
In-Reply-To: <C1DA35DF.6D2%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <C1DA35DF.6D2%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <C057F9AA-3806-479A-B4D3-0B9DA34F0268@xena.ipaustralia.gov.au>

Hi Stewart,

On 22/01/2007, at 9:35 AM, Stewart Fist wrote:

> We supposedly use the international spectrum allocation for television
> transmission, yet Australia has never used Channels 12 to 27 in the  
> UHF
> band.

Because they are already in use for other purposes.

> Yet this is the best part of the UHF band for distance broadcasting  
> (more
> important in Australia than elsewhere) -- and it exists as an enormous
> spectrum gap from 222MHz up to 526MHz.  This was the obvious region  
> to open
> up for digital TV, and this could have been done without needing to  
> destroy
> analog channels until they are totally obsolete.

There is no "spectrum gap".  That is the part of the spectrum where  
the vast majority of two-way radio and similar services sit.

> I've never managed to get an answer (that I trust) as to why these  
> channels
> were left vacant,  The authorities opened up the high end of the  
> UHF band
> for 'so-called business and foreign language' broadcasting at one  
> time,
> which meant that a set-top box was needed, because it was off the  
> range of
> international TV tuners.  Yet this on-tuner range from 12 to 27  
> lies vacant.

It's not vacant.  It's packed with other services like police, fire  
brigade, ambulance, RFS, taxis, courier companies, etc.  Where do  
these services go if you reallocate the spectrum to digital  
broadcasting?

You can search the ACMA website for frequency allocations within a  
certain postcode and frequency range.  The form is at;

http://web.acma.gov.au/pls/radcom/assignment_range.range_search

I searched for all allocations between 220Mhz and 525Mhz just in the  
Sydney CBD postcode (2000) and it returned 1204 allocations.   That  
doesn't include allocations made in the surrounding postcodes.

The ACMA spectrum plan is at

http://www.acma.gov.au/ACMAINTER.1638528:STANDARD::pc=PC_2713

which includes both a PDF text document and a PDF wall chart  
detailing exactly the use of each bit of spectrum between 9 hertz and  
275Ghz.

The Australian spectrum plan conforms mostly to the International  
Telecommunications Union (ITU) spectrum plan which, interestingly,  
does not have TV channels listed between 220Mhz and 525Mhz.



Carl.

From glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au  Wed Jan 24 17:29:13 2007
From: glen.turner at aarnet.edu.au (Glen Turner)
Date: Wed Jan 24 17:29:33 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <20070122232729.GO26390@taz.net.au>
References: <p0624080ec1daeb46ad65@[192.168.123.167]>
	<20070122232729.GO26390@taz.net.au>
Message-ID: <45B6FCB9.4050103@aarnet.edu.au>

Craig Sanders wrote:

> to start with, it would be running linux (or freebsd or even mac osx but
> linux is less hassle and there are a number of freely available live-CD
> linux distros to choose from) rather than windows.

Ah, yes. Linux and security.  More secure than Windows does not
mean secure.

As a trivial example, Linux will happily run under VMWare and
take input from the keyboard, even where the applications
programmer has requested X Windows to use secure inputs only.

Yes it's convenient. It's also insecure as, despite the applications'
specific request, it's now taking input from an insecure source,
since we should not trust that VMWare has not been compromised.

> secondly, it would have java, flash, and other executable web content
> disabled.

That's a real problem for the bank's applications programmer, since
they now have no way to correct the deficiencies of the operating
system.  For example, both Windows and Linux will allow secrets to
be entered through the keyboard whereas the applications programmer
might prefer them to be entered using a randomised on-screen keyboard
so that keyloggers cannot replay the keys.


Without changes to PC hardware there are no simple answers here.  The
PC even lacks a genuine Secure Attention Key so that you can be
sure your Linux Live CD for Banking is loading on real hardware rather
than some nefarious emulator.

There's also the problem of secure delivery of the Live CD.

But we're starting from a low base here, so I suppose any
improvement is worthwhile.


-- 
 Glen Turner         Tel: (08) 8303 3936 or +61 8 8303 3936
 Australia's Academic & Research Network  www.aarnet.edu.au
From rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au  Wed Jan 24 18:39:08 2007
From: rchirgwin at ozemail.com.au (rchirgwin@ozemail.com.au)
Date: Wed Jan 24 18:39:23 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <45B6FCB9.4050103@aarnet.edu.au>
References: <p0624080ec1daeb46ad65@[192.168.123.167]>	<20070122232729.GO26390@taz.net.au>
	<45B6FCB9.4050103@aarnet.edu.au>
Message-ID: <45B70D1C.5000601@ozemail.com.au>

Glen wrote:

>
>That's a real problem for the bank's applications programmer, since
>they now have no way to correct the deficiencies of the operating
>system.  For example, both Windows and Linux will allow secrets to
>be entered through the keyboard whereas the applications programmer
>might prefer them to be entered using a randomised on-screen keyboard
>so that keyloggers cannot replay the keys.
>  
>
Well ... we could go "back to the future", and give up the convenience 
of the browser, instead having consumers use a purpose-built application 
from the bank. The first Advance Bank application I used was delivered 
as an EXE on a floppy disk; then so you could install it, you had to 
phone a number which recited the program's hash, which you typed in so 
as to complete the install.

OK: this would not be 100% secure against (say) eavesdropping on the 
network, but it would break the back of phishing, because you could not 
invoke the application from the e-mail or the Web browser. Would this be 
so much more expensive than, for example, shipping tokens to customers?

Of course, an installed logger could capture key data and, I suppose, 
mouse clicks, but you would still need an authenticated copy of the 
application to use captured data. This may be avoidable or beatable?

I fully expect bigger brains to shoot down the idea (for eg, "what about 
Linux"? Answer: have the application compiled cross-platform). But the 
bank would also get better traceability of application usage. The loss 
of convenience is that the app is not so easily transportable ... but 
only a fool banks from Internet cafes.

RC

>Without changes to PC hardware there are no simple answers here.  The
>PC even lacks a genuine Secure Attention Key so that you can be
>sure your Linux Live CD for Banking is loading on real hardware rather
>than some nefarious emulator.
>
>There's also the problem of secure delivery of the Live CD.
>
>But we're starting from a low base here, so I suppose any
>improvement is worthwhile.
>
>
>  
>
From cas at taz.net.au  Wed Jan 24 18:49:57 2007
From: cas at taz.net.au (Craig Sanders)
Date: Wed Jan 24 18:49:59 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
In-Reply-To: <45B6FCB9.4050103@aarnet.edu.au>
References: <p0624080ec1daeb46ad65@[192.168.123.167]>
	<20070122232729.GO26390@taz.net.au>
	<45B6FCB9.4050103@aarnet.edu.au>
Message-ID: <20070124074957.GR26390@taz.net.au>

On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 04:59:13PM +1030, Glen Turner wrote:
> Craig Sanders wrote:
> 
> > to start with, it would be running linux (or freebsd or even mac osx
> > but linux is less hassle and there are a number of freely available
> > live-CD linux distros to choose from) rather than windows.
>
> Ah, yes. Linux and security.  More secure than Windows does not mean
> secure.

nothing is 100% secure.  and never will be.

> As a trivial example, Linux will happily run under VMWare and take
> input from the keyboard, even where the applications programmer has
> requested X Windows to use secure inputs only.
>
> Yes it's convenient. It's also insecure as, despite the applications'
> specific request, it's now taking input from an insecure source, since
> we should not trust that VMWare has not been compromised.

yes, if you try really hard and run linux in an emulator (presumably on
an insecure OS like windows) you can find ways to make linux insecure.

i've said this myself on numerous occasions.

the difference is that you have to try hard to make it insecure. there
are many ways to do it but out-of-the-box, linux is secure enough for
most purposes.



> > secondly, it would have java, flash, and other executable web content
> > disabled.
> 
> That's a real problem for the bank's applications programmer, since
> they now have no way to correct the deficiencies of the operating
> system.  For example, both Windows and Linux will allow secrets to
> be entered through the keyboard whereas the applications programmer
> might prefer them to be entered using a randomised on-screen keyboard
> so that keyloggers cannot replay the keys.

if the programmer thinks that that is any more secure than a keyboard,
then they're an idiot. if a system is compromised so that a real
keyboard can be snooped on, then so can a virtual on-screen keyboard.


anyway, a web programmer shouldn't be thinking about the deficiencies
of the operating system, let alone trying to work around them. they
should be programming for the browser environment, which is (at essence)
little more than a way of displaying data - i.e. HTML. the server side
generates and transmits the data in response to user request/input. the
browser renders it in whatever manner best suits the local environment
- the web programmer should not be trying to second-guess what that
local environment is, and they certainly shouldn't be forcing their
expectations onto the rendering.


> Without changes to PC hardware there are no simple answers here.  The

there will be no simple answers, ever.

but there are some simple underlying rules - and one of them is that
you can't have a secure online banking system based on a fundamentally
insecure operating system like MS Windows.

> There's also the problem of secure delivery of the Live CD.

secure distribution is far from an insurmountable problem.

banks could ship their own live CD to customers.

or there's always download and MD5 checksum verification.

> But we're starting from a low base here, so I suppose any improvement
> is worthwhile.

linux (or any *nix) is a vast improvement, security-wise, over windows.
not perfect, but then perfect security is unattainable.


craig

-- 
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>           (part time cyborg)
From link at todd.inoz.com  Wed Jan 24 21:04:00 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Wed Jan 24 21:07:36 2007
Subject: [LINK] Analogue TV frequencies not just used for TV, so
	spanner in works of spectrum sale
In-Reply-To: <C1DA35DF.6D2%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
References: <200701202125.l0KLPnLT015307@anumail0.anu.edu.au>
	<C1DA35DF.6D2%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070124210051.034d3b80@mail.ah.net>

At 09:35 AM 22/01/2007, Stewart Fist wrote:


>We supposedly use the international spectrum allocation for television
>transmission, yet Australia has never used Channels 12 to 27 in the UHF
>band.
>
>Yet this is the best part of the UHF band for distance broadcasting (more
>important in Australia than elsewhere) -- and it exists as an enormous
>spectrum gap from 222MHz up to 526MHz.  This was the obvious region to open
>up for digital TV, and this could have been done without needing to destroy
>analog channels until they are totally obsolete.

Nope.  Not really.  You have Amateur Radio, UHF CB from 476Mhz to 477Mhz, 
you have pagers, you have hospital systems, you have private licence radio 
links, the list is quite long.

There's also a stack of Broadcast radio in that region.  I think it's 
mostly narrowcast and the content is generally foreign.  Probably lost of 
Arabic material in there :)

>I've never managed to get an answer (that I trust) as to why these channels
>were left vacant,

Check at the ACMA web site in the Radio Licence database and enter the 
relevant frequencies.  You're going to get a lot of data!

>I've been asking these questions at spectrum conferences for years, but
>never had a convincing reply.

Maybe because people are only interested in certain frequencies for certain 
uses and at spectrum conferences they are only interested in new developing 
ranges, rather than older over crowded and privately licensed ranges?


From link at todd.inoz.com  Wed Jan 24 21:05:45 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Wed Jan 24 21:07:50 2007
Subject: [LINK] Analogue TV frequencies not just used for TV, so
	spanner in works of spectrum sale
In-Reply-To: <C2F5DD6F-1CAD-4C6D-9A17-A7470107AB76@gmail.com>
References: <C1DA35DF.6D2%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<C2F5DD6F-1CAD-4C6D-9A17-A7470107AB76@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070124210422.034d38f0@mail.ah.net>

At 09:58 AM 22/01/2007, Kim Holburn wrote:
>On 2007/Jan/21, at 11:35 PM, Stewart Fist wrote:
>>We supposedly use the international spectrum allocation for television
>>transmission, yet Australia has never used Channels 12 to 27 in the
>>UHF band.
>>international TV tuners.  Yet this on-tuner range from 12 to 27
>>lies vacant.
>>
>>Has anyone ever heard any sort of a rational explanation?
>
>I believe the simple economic answer is that more TV stations would
>dilute the advertising dollar and the stations wouldn't be viable.
>It has always seemed to me to be a monopolist's argument (tri- 
>opolists?  quintopolists?).  That's the supposed answer to why we
>only have 5 channels not why we don't use the unallocated channels
>for something else.

Kim - you really want another 10 channels of "Big Brother" and "Australian 
Princess" or "Idol" or "Pop Stars" or heaven forbid after all the promise 
of "Commercial quality material" another Channel 31 with it's "We got the 
licence you guys are suckers and we're going to show the same tacky trash 
that you did, only we have the power" stations?

Eschk!


From link at todd.inoz.com  Wed Jan 24 21:07:16 2007
From: link at todd.inoz.com (Adam Todd)
Date: Wed Jan 24 21:08:01 2007
Subject: [LINK] Analogue TV frequencies not just used for TV, so
	spanner in works of spectrum sale
In-Reply-To: <5ii197$26vvf4@ipmail02.adl2.internode.on.net>
References: <C1DA35DF.6D2%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>
	<C2F5DD6F-1CAD-4C6D-9A17-A7470107AB76@gmail.com>
	<5ii197$26vvf4@ipmail02.adl2.internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20070124210622.034d3660@mail.ah.net>

At 10:18 AM 22/01/2007, Jan Whitaker wrote:

>in access distance of 2 other stations from the capital city as well, all 
>free to air, I think that argument is a bunch of bunk.  And that was 
>withOUT a public broadcasting station similar to ABC. It's called greed 
>and control by Packer9/Stokes7/Ch10. We have 3 commercial stations for the 
>entire country here, not 5.

Totally agree, but there isn't really any good local content production 
anyway!  The consumers can't afford to pay for content!

>And the hundreds-of-channels cable systems have also put pay to the 
>argument there.

Yes, the take up is pretty lousy!  But that's because there is little 
access and little to watch!


From mgm-ns at tardis.net  Wed Jan 24 21:49:39 2007
From: mgm-ns at tardis.net (Malcolm Miles)
Date: Wed Jan 24 21:50:33 2007
Subject: [LINK] Solar cells
In-Reply-To: <45B2884C.3010102@lannet.com.au>
References: <C1D79BC5.6C2%stewart_fist@optusnet.com.au>	<1169268954.5841.325.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<45B1EEBB.3010009@aarnet.edu.au> <45B2884C.3010102@lannet.com.au>
Message-ID: <daeer2hc3h0pmnubc3efjdihstr6iist7j@4ax.com>

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 08:23:24 +1100, you wrote:

>> Computing, and networking in particular, is front and centre when it comes
>> to the wasteful use of electricity.  It's the weekend, and yet every
>> ethernet switch runs as though it is facing peak load, just so you get
>> this e-mail milliseconds earlier.
>
>I have to say that I have done my little bit by changing my physical 
>servers over to virtual servers using XEN.  It was a risk to my client 
>connectivity, but it was a successful shift and reduced my IT power burn 
>by about 25%.

While I can't do much about the PCs and servers at work, I have
switched to 100% green power at home so I don't feel quite as guilty
running all my various home PCs and servers.


-- 
Best wishes,
Malcolm


From stephen at melbpc.org.au  Thu Jan 25 03:02:18 2007
From: stephen at melbpc.org.au (stephen@melbpc.org.au)
Date: Thu Jan 25 03:02:32 2007
Subject: [LINK] Consumer computer security
Message-ID: <20070124160218.9B8BF160