[LINK] Newspapers online

Mon Mar 29 16:39:20 AEDT 2010

The Guardian makes it as a global paper as it gets more, or very close to more, of its readers outside of the the UK than in the UK. I doubt any non-English language newspapers would have such online readership.

It's not really relevant as to whether a paywall will work or not though. And maybe a division of global mass market and national mass market would be relevant.

Maybe you haven't noticed the trend for major quality non-English newspapers to have an online English version as well? This has grown in the last couple of years. It's the only way to get a global readership.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, do I think newspapers will make money from online advertising? Not a lot. It won't pay for the journalism. I can't see any other method on the horizon apart from paywalls. First The Times and Sunday Times. The New York Times has said it will follow. Le Monde is introducing one to parts of its newspaper.

Once it gets to a critical mass of newspapers making their content only available to payers, then they will in all likelihood take off. The number of online readers will drop dramatically, but news outlets seem unconcerned, or happy to wear it, about visitors who look at one page and disappear. They want readers to stay.

So I'd guess The Times/Sunday Times are prepared to see a huge drop in casual readers and see regular and paying readers stay.

What will happen? Who knows. But journalism has to be paid for and apart from the BBC and ABC who get their money from a licence fee/government, and The Guardian who can possibly sustain losses forever more, the loss of print advertising income is not sustainable.

As for my views of Murdoch. I can't actually see how they are relevant to the discussion here.

David

----- Original Message ----
> From: Kim Holburn <kim at holburn.net>
> To: Link list <Link at anu.edu.au>
> Sent: Mon, 29 March, 2010 2:56:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [LINK] Newspapers online
> 
> 
On 2010/Mar/29, at 1:17 PM, David Goldstein wrote:

> Of course, I 
> wouldn't expect anything else from this list but  
> Murdoch 
> bashing.
...
> And if you read my comments, I haven't said anything in 
> favour of  
> Murdoch.

You see, I read your comments as being 
> fairly extremely in favour of  
Murdoch.  Accusing linkers of 
> Murdoch bashing does that for me.

> As for my comments, if you had 
> read the, I have mentioned the BBC,  
> The Guardian and New York 
> Times as well, and I wasn't aware these  
> were owned by 
> Murdoch.

The Guardian and NYT are UK and US papers.  I'm not sure 
> I'd consider  
them mass market any more than any national newspaper. 
> IHT now I might  
consider.  I have often wondered if IHT is not 
> government funded  
though.  How else does it get absolutely 
> everywhere?

> As for Chinese newspapers being mass market, you can 
> argue they are  
> in their own country. I'm arguing on a global 
> scale. As I said  
> earlier, they don't have huge readerships 
> outside their own countries.

There are very approx 70 Million people of 
> Chinese origin living  
outside mainland China.  I've seen the odd 
> Indian around too.

> Not that I've seen figures to indicate it, but I 
> would be surprised  
> if readership for Chinese newspapers online 
> goes anywhere near those  
> of, say, The Guardian, New York Times, 
> BBC, Daily Telegraph and even  
> The Times and Sunday 
> Times.

I'd be surprised if most US or UK papers have anywhere near 
> the  
circulation of Chinese papers.

> As for Chinese 
> newspaper etc making money, everything I've read on  
> issues on 
> Chinese markets indicates the markets would not be huge.  
> Of 
> course there are websites like Tencent (or something similar)  
> 
> that have made their owners billions, but as many western companies  
> 
> have found, it's entertainment that makes the money in China and  
> 
> many Asian countries. Not news.

What western companies make 
> money on in China and what Chinese  
companies make money on in China 
> are not the same things.  Actually  
resources make money in China 
> especially for us.

> And of course Kim, you must know 
> everything.

Not at all, but I did live in China for a number of 
> years.  No need  
for ad hominem arguments.

> And more 
> than every mass market newspaper that has tried to make  
> money 
> online from advertising, as I doubt there is one that has made  
> 
> money.

And you think this is about to change?  Tell us what you 
> really think.

> But then you can go into discussions about how Chinese 
> spend money,  
> that they like to save a greater percentage of their 
> incomes than  
> almost all western countries and a range of other 
> issues.
>
> I totally agree that "They don't need more money than 
> the currently  
> get from online advertising, they need something 
> like what they used  
> to get from print advertising which is 
> considerably more." But your  
> comment has nothing to do with my 
> comment you related it to.

It wasn't clear to me what you were referring 
> to.  The BBC doesn't  
need to make money from its website does 
> it?  It probably has the  
largest reach of any media 
> group.

> And yes, we will see what happens. And if you read my 
> comments, I  
> haven't said anything in favour of Murdoch.

I 
> beg to differ.

> All I've done is comment on the idea of 
> paywalls.

What you have commented on is your perceived anti-Murdoch bias 
> in this  
list.  I'm not even sure what you think about 
> paywalls.

> I'm happy to discuss the merits or otherwise of Murdoch 
> and his  
> media empire,

Go on then.

> but it's not 
> what this discussion is about.

I thought it was 
> actually.

Kim

>
> David
>
> ----- Original 
> Message ----
>> From: Kim Holburn <> ymailto="mailto:kim at holburn.net" 
> href="mailto:kim at holburn.net">kim at holburn.net>
>> To: Link list 
> <> href="mailto:Link at anu.edu.au">Link at anu.edu.au>
>> Sent: Mon, 29 
> March, 2010 1:01:21 PM
>> Subject: Re: [LINK] Newspapers 
> online
>>
>>
> On 2010/Mar/28, at 6:17 PM, David 
> Goldstein wrote:
>> You seem to not
>> realise that the 2 
> aforementioned papers only need a
>> small
>> percentage of 
> their online readers to pay for access for them
>> to
>> be 
> getting more money than they currently do from online
>>
>> 
> advertising.
>
> They don't need more money than the currently get 
> from
>> online
> advertising, they need something like what they 
> used to get
>> from print
> advertising which is considerably 
> more.
>
>> Just
>> because millions of people read your 
> newspapers online doesn't
>>
>> mean you earn much money from 
> advertising.
>
> Then you're doing it
>> 
> wrong.
>
>> As for the Chinese and Indian newspapers, VERY few 
> people
>> outside
>> those countries will want to read them. 
> The large mass
>> market
>> newspapers (and the BBC) in the UK 
> and mass market papers
>> in the US
>> are global media 
> outlets now.
>
> Perhaps you meant
>> English 
> newspapers.  I would have thought a market
> of 1.3 
> billion
>> (or so) was a mass market.
>
>
> What you 
> seem to be saying is that the
>> only mass market media is
> 
> Murdoch.  So then the original
>> statement :
>> Times 
> and Sunday Times newspapers from June, becoming the
>> 
> first
>> media firm to test consumers' appetite to pay for
>> 
> mass-market news
>> online.
>
> May as well be 
> :
>> Times
>> and Sunday Times newspapers from June, becoming 
> the first
>> Murdoch
>> news sites to test consumers' appetite 
> to pay for mass-
>> market news
>> 
> online.
>
>
>
> On 2010/Mar/28, at 9:37 PM, David 
> Goldstein
>> wrote:
>
>> Ivan and Karl, mention the 
> large readership of Indian and
>> Chinese
>> newspapers. But 
> they are not global players like several
>> British or
>> 
> American news outlets.
>
> Yeah there are only
>> Chinese 
> people in ... every country in the world.
>
>> Plus the 
> markets
>> may be large but there is little money.
>
> Not 
> true.
>
>> Hence why,
>> as many people say, Google 
> pulled out of China. They made
>> very
>> little money there 
> and so their decision was very easy.
>
> You know they
>> 
> made little money there for sure?  And that was the
> reason 
> they
>> pulled out?
>
>> Newspapers such as The Guardian 
> and New York Times are
>> widely read
>> throughout the 
> world.
>>
>> And once people
>> get over the 
> anti-Murdoch sentiment that pervades
>> this
>> 
> list,
>
> Compared to you we're probably all virulently
>> 
> anti-Murdoch.
>
>> people might have a reasonable debate on the 
> pluses
>> and minuses of
>> paywalls for news content. At 
> least the press in
>> the UK has been
>> debating this with 
> interesting points for and
>> against.
>
> Why do we have 
> to debate it?  The debate that really
>> matters, as they
> 
> say, is the one which makes the money.  We only
>> have to wait a 
> while
> until we get to the "I told you so"
>> 
> bit.
>
>>
>> 
> David
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original
>> 
> Message ----
>>> From: Ivan Trundle <> ymailto="mailto:> ymailto="mailto:ivan at itrundle.com" 
> href="mailto:ivan at itrundle.com">ivan at itrundle.com"
>> 
> href="mailto:> href="mailto:ivan at itrundle.com">ivan at itrundle.com">> ymailto="mailto:ivan at itrundle.com" 
> href="mailto:ivan at itrundle.com">ivan at itrundle.com>
>>> To: 
> Link
>> list <> href="mailto:> href="mailto:Link at anu.edu.au">Link at anu.edu.au">> ymailto="mailto:Link at anu.edu.au" 
> href="mailto:Link at anu.edu.au">Link at anu.edu.au>
>>> Sent: Sun, 
> 28
>> March, 2010 7:10:14 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [LINK] 
> Newspapers
>> online
>>>
>>>
>> On 
> 28/03/2010, at 6:17 PM, David
>> Goldstein 
> wrote:
>>
>>> I suggest you
>>> read 
> the
>> discussions on the move by The Times and Sunday Times 
> in
>>>
>> greater
>>> 
> detail.
>>
>> I have: it's one of my favourite
>> 
> areas of interest. Might I
>>> suggest that you come down off your 
> high
>> horse?
>>
>>> Sure every 
> country
>>> has some differences,
>> and the BBC and ABC 
> will benefit. But you
>>> seem to fail
>> 
> to
>>> understand that the BBC/ABC receives their money 
> from
>> licence
>>> fee/government.
>>
>> 
> No, I do
>> not.
>>
>>> You seem to not realise 
> that
>>> the 2
>> aforementioned papers only need a small 
> percentage of their
>>>
>> online readers
>>> 
> to pay for access for them to be getting more money
>> than 
> they
>>> currently do from
>>> online
>> 
> advertising.
>>
>> No, I do not.
>>
>>> 
> Just because
>> millions of
>>> people read your newspapers 
> online doesn't mean you earn
>> much money
>>> 
> from
>>> advertising.
>>
>> I
>> was 
> making no comparisons with advertising revenue and 
> the
>>>
>> profitability of a news media 
> outlet.
>>
>>> As for the Chinese and
>> 
> Indian
>>> newspapers, VERY few people outside those countries will 
> want
>> to read
>>> them.
>>
>> So what? 
> Their readership is large
>> enough to warrant a 
> different
>>> outlook.
>>
>>> The 
> large
>> mass market newspapers (and the BBC) in the UK
>>> 
> and mass market
>> papers in the US are global media outlets 
> now.
>>
>>
>> They've
>>> got a long way 
> to go before they are truly global in
>> news
>>> 
> presentation. And
>>> whilst Murdoch might have
>> a global 
> presence, each market is
>>> 
> different.
>>
>>
>> iT
>> 
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> -- 
> 
> Kim
>> Holburn
> IT Network & Security Consultant
> T: 
> +61 2 61402408  M:
>> +61 404072753
> mailto:> 
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> Holburn
IT Network & Security Consultant
T: +61 2 61402408  M: 
> +61 404072753
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