[LINK] Hold up your hands if you Like HT Transmission Lines - Was - solar plants

[Richard Chirgwin]

On 20/06/11 4:33 PM, Kim Holburn wrote:
> While I don't disagree that home solar panels are the way to go I don't agree with some of your figuring.  Also we're still going to need baseload power generation so solar is not going to allow us get rid of HT lines.
What if it's baseload that's the myth?

It was created by utilities - via things like off-peak rates - to try 
and level out demand during the day, because steam turbines don't like 
being flicked on and off. But that doesn't make "baseload" some 
inviolable natural requirement; it's partly an artefact of utilities 
shaping user behaviour.

Some things are natural - for eg, people using lights at night, fridges 
consuming more during the day, etc. But I think we need a more 
sophisticated understanding of real needs, rather than assuming that 
today's baseload is somehow sacred.

RC
> On 2011/Jun/20, at 10:28 AM, Tom Koltai wrote:
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: link-bounces at mailman.anu.edu.au
>>> [mailto:link-bounces at mailman.anu.edu.au] On Behalf Of
>>> stephen at melbpc.org.au
>>> Sent: Sunday, 19 June 2011 11:55 PM
>>> To: link at anu.edu.au
>>> Subject: [LINK] solar plants
>>>
>>> World's largest solar plants for NSW, Qld
>>>
>>> June 18, 2011
>>> http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/worlds-largest-s
>>> olar-plants-
>>> for-nsw-qld-20110618-1g8my.html
>>>
>>> <SNIP>
>> Err. In case anyone worked out the numbers,
>> They equal $18,460.86 per home (for 1.5 kWH equivalency) or about a 12%
>> increase in cost over the recent Solar power initiative rolled out in
>> NSW with panels installed on consumers roofs.
>>
>> If we add line loss (transmission loss) we find that unless the power is
>> utilised within 100 km radius we can add another 4-8% transmission loss
>> to the cost.
> I don't accept those figures.  The total losses in the whole of the US grid is around 6.5%.  Where does your 100km figure come in?
>
> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Electric_power_transmission
> As of 1980, the longest cost-effective distance for DC electricity was 7,000 km (4,300 mi) (4,000 km (2,500 mi) for AC), although all present transmission lines are considerably shorter.
> http://www.geni.org/globalenergy/library/technical-articles/transmission/cigre/present-limits-of-very-long-distance-transmission-systems/index.shtml
>
>
>> The home install scheme was calculated on 60 cents per kWH being payable
>> to the homeowner for the use of his roof until 2014.
>>
>> Even with this premium the scheme is cheaper than the current "biggest
>> in the world". Mainly because there is almost zero transmission or
>> conversion loss.
>>
>> In less than six months, 380 Megawatts was constructed on a distributed
>> basis at exactly those points where the power was likely to be used.
>> Additionally there are no transmission/substation/transformer
>> installation (easement/loss of land for other uses) or maintenance costs
>> (the hidden costs of installing a massive power station).
> I would think that unless the power from your roof panels are being used only a very small distance from your home the transmission losses could be greater than HT line losses.  The local transmission losses are going to be happening on 240v lines where the losses are far greater than HT lines.  I'm not even sure that power from local panels will cross one of the step down transformers and if not, it can only be used in the local area.  I would have thought that some aspects of the local grid might have to be redesigned for local generation - which may be an added cost you have not factored in.
>
>> I think solar power is wonderful. I have 4.2 kW equivalency on my roof.
>> ($22,000 retail capex - my real cost approx. $6,400)
>> It protects my roof tiles from the elements.
>> It keeps the house cooler in the Summer (by removing about 3 degrees
>> heat from the roofspace)
>> It keeps the house warmer in the Winter (adding an extra layer of
>> insulation between us and the elements - untested first winter....)
>> ...and I know that whilst my electricity is almost free it is also
>> extremely green.
>>
>> More so because it was generated here, exited on one meter and came in
>> on another.
>> I like solar power.
>>
>> Unfortunately, 115,000 homes from 8.2 million homes leaves a lot of
>> Aussies using the other type of power. You know the one. That Black Coal
>> stuff. The stuff that kills millions of people every year. When they
>> mine it, when they burn it.
> Millions?  I don't think so.
>
>> The stuff that has more radiation leaking out of power station slag
>> piles than fifty Fukushima meltdown reactors.
>> The stuff that is poisoning our water tables without anyone being
>> informed.
>>
>> The stuff that Journalists that want to keep their jobs don't write
>> about.
>>
>> An excellent start Canberra. Now how about the other 8.1 million homes
>> in Australia ?
>>
>> I make it only  $149,533,043,478 using this "Massive Project concept" to
>> deliver solar power to all of them.
>>
>> Or we could just deliver 1.6 Kw to every home in Australia for about
>> 20,088,000,000 or half the price of the NBN.
>> Now that is an infrastructure project that would still be paying
>> dividends in 25 years time when the solar panels will need replacing.
>>
>> A 1.6 kW solar installation on every roof in Oz would save an
>> approximated two-five billion per annum in un required infrastructure
>> development and make the countryside look a lot nicer.
>>
>> And folks, lets be honest - Does anyone like High Tension Transmission
>> lines ?
>>
>> P.S.: it would save so much Carbon from Transmission loss savings that
>> Australia would almost qualify for Kyoto immediately.
>>
>> TomK.
>>
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