[LINK] Standards, please! The third coming of electric vehicles

[Karl Auer]

On Sun, 2012-04-22 at 02:02 +1000, Frank O'Connor wrote:
> > The primary driver behind most alternative liquid fuels is that
> > oil is running out.
> 
> But the supply of hydrocarbons seems to be increasing [...]

My point was just that the motivation behind alternative liquid fuels is
as alternatives to oil, not alternatives to emissions. Though some have
a lower carbon footprint than others.

> Another more ecologically and carbon sustainable fuel ... hydrogen ...
> could be created using salt water and solar/wave/whatever sustainably
> generated energy, in serious abundance. The initial capital and
> infrastructure costs would be high, but once set in play it would
> provide an alternative that ticks most of the boxes.

Absolutely. and in a couple of decades or more we may well have usable
hydrogen-burning vehicles. That's one of the few alternative burnable
fuels that has no carbon output at all - except of course during
production, i.e., like anything else that is supposed to be emissions
neutral, we need to use clean energy to make it.

> Mmmm ... I have a roof full of solar cells that generates about
> 1600-2000W per hour at peak ... which covers most contingencies
> (except heating, cooling, cooking and other high demand periods
> when I have multiple devices going.)

Solar hot water, cook with gas instead of electricity, and get more
cells, more cells! Seriously though, while power can and should be
encouraged on individual roofs, it can and should also be generated
locally in wind farms, solar panel farms and so on. Reducing
transmission is pretty much the same as generating more power.

We have 2.5kW on our garage, and our yearly usage is slightly greater
than our yearly production.

> > Only if you transmit it. Local clean generation is possible *right
> > now*.
> 
> Not to the level of a family's complete needs.

Local doesn't necessarily mean literally on each family's roof. It just
means not hundreds of kilometres away at the end of loss-inducing HV
wires.

>  Sad fact of life but we live in a pretty energy intensive age. Unless
> we can make the devices an order of magnitude more energy efficient
> (like they have done with light bulbs) the power requirements will
> always tend to be more than we can locally generate.

That seems unduly pessimistic on two counts. We need to change the
amount of energy we use, which does mean more energy-efficient devices,
but also means building better houses (especially better-insulated
ones), using solar to heat water, and changing the *ways* we use energy.

None of these are impossible, they just need will. I'm much more
pessimistic on a that front - I don't think we will do a damn thing
until impending disaster is completely undeniable.

> Now compare the current fully electric car, with the current fully
> hydrocarbon powered car.

It's an unfair comparison. I freely admit that the performance of a
petrol powered car is better than any comparable EV. However the
specific attributes of the cars you mention - speed and range - are
specifically those areas where EVs are weak. Compare the emissions, and
ask where in Sydney you would have any opportunity to *use* that speed
or performance, and the comparison starts looking a bit better.

If your goal is to travel at 200kmh for hundreds of kilometres while
clinging to the road in the curves, then you will need to spew CO2 while
doing it, for the foreseeable future. If your goal is to get to work, go
shopping, drop the kids off at school, go to the movies in the evening
etc, then the EV compares exceptionally well. Even on price :-)

> For urban travel ... no problems (with some qualifications).
> 
> But I live 125 Kms from Melbourne and about 200 Kms from any other
> population centre over 50000 people ... so it's not really terrific
> for me.

I live 600-odd km from Sydney and Melbourne. Our biggest local centre is
a round trip of 80km away. Most stuff we do is round trips of about 20km
and 40km. We did a lot of calculating a couple of years ago and worked
out that if we put another 2.5kW on the garage roof we could use an EV
for pretty much everything we need, and that if we hired a vehicle for
the few long trips we make (visits, holidays, work) we would still be
ahead on cost. Further calculations suggested that arrangements with
neighbours would probably allow us to share their FFV, in exchange for
savings on their part on fuel by sharing our EV. We didn't end up
getting an EV, but for reasons unrelated to these practicalities.

> And our way of life predicates holidays down at the beach, weekend or
> day trips with the family, and little numbers like fishing, surfing,
> hunting, swimming and the like which take us outside the urban
> environs with monotonous regularity ... and e-vehicles don't cut the
> mustard for that.

They do if you are near the coast :-) Long trips are not the EV's forte.
No argument there. Though it is very likely that EV range will increase.
 
> - Why not install multiple smaller engines in an electric car?

OK, as long as they are unsprung weight.

> - Why not install them in the wheels?

Because then they would be sprung weight.

> - Why not make the drive system inherently 40-50% more efficient by
> doing so?

Indeed! Why not? And computer-controlling multiple motors would remove
the need for a differential.

> - And wow! That gives us a 40-50% increase in range!

Well, maybe.

> takes me 8-10 hours to fully recharge it, and 4-5 hours to get to

Most people's cars spend much of their lives parked - at work or at
home. Plug them in when parked.

> Given that, I shudder to think what a moderate size (say a 10,000 WH)
> e-car would take in the way of power drain from the house, and how
> long it would take (especially given the less efficient multi-battery
> design). Even top-ups take a few hours on my bike ... and whilst it is
> topping up I can't use it.

The time it would take can be calculated exactly. And the longest charge
time is when you charge from a standard 240V, 10A socket, which can draw
a maximum of 2400W. If you provide a specialised power source such as
three-phase 32A, you can reduce the charge time a LOT. Initially, charge
times will be slow; like everything else it will get better.

> It's a product confidence thing. Unless Joe/Josephine Public can be
> assured that they can refuel and repair the family car at regular,
> local and convenient locations

OR they realise from the outset that their EV will be used only for
local trips...

> And the way the batteries and their siting in e-vehicles are designed
> at the moment, embedded in banks throughout relatively inaccessible
> locations on the car, makes even the idea of a quick swap-out/swap-in
> refueling station impractical. 

Swapping is not going to happen. Seriously. EVs simply are not
long-range vehicles yet. And the greater their range becomes in time,
the less need there will be for swapping, though recharging stations
might become more viable.

> Like my roof you mean? The roof that generate between 1600-2000W per
> hour at peak? The roof that's gonna refuel the e-vehicle that needs to
> put out about 10,000 KWh to operate? That roof?       :)

Your roof is one local spot. The local windfarm is another, the local
solar farm a third - and so on. Local doesn't have to mean up your left
nostril.

> You and I have different ideas of what is 'viable', Karl.         :)

Perhaps we also have different ideas about how urgently the problem of
CO2 emissions needs to be addressed.

Regards, K.

PS: This is a simple, somewhat outdated page:
http://www.electric-echo.com/myths.htm
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer at biplane.com.au)
http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer

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