[PapuanLanguages] Corrections to the Ndu data

Aikhenvald, Alexandra alexandra.aikhenvald at jcu.edu.au
Thu Mar 29 17:01:11 AEDT 2018 

Dear Tim

I am sorry - but it is you who  are wrong. I have no idea what your reconstructions of proto-Kwoma-Nukuma are based on (there is so little out there on Nukuma - and the speakers always beg me to find them a linguist to work on the language!). No scientific evidence AT ALL to the effect that Kwoma-Nukuma and Ndu could be related, believe you me! The information availabvle on Wpogamusin-Chenapian is scant; I have a good friend among the Wogamusin who will welcome a linguist working with his community!

By the way, have you ever done any original work on any of these languages, including the Ndu languages? Or are you one of those professional 'comparativists' making  sweeping statements about Proto-Anything they can lay their hands on?

S

Alexandra Y. Aikhenvald, PhD, DLitt, FQAAS, FAHA 
Distinguished Professor and Australian Laureate Fellow
Director of the Language and Culture Research Centre
James Cook University
PO Box 6811, Cairns, Queensland 4870, Australia
mobile 0400 305315, office 61-7-42321117
fax 61-7-4232 1880  
http://www.aikhenvaldlinguistics.com/
http://research.jcu.edu.au/lcrc
 
How Gender Shapes the World
By Alexandra Y. Aikhenvald
Now available from Oxford University Press

 


-----Original Message-----
From: PapuanLanguages <papuanlanguages-bounces at anu.edu.au> On Behalf Of Timothy Usher
Sent: Thursday, 29 March 2018 3:36 PM
To: Papuan languages discussion list <papuanlanguages at anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [PapuanLanguages] Corrections to the Ndu data

Dear Alexandra,

"What for for 'heart' do you have in mind? Manambu mawul (Yalaku mauri,
etc) cannot possibly go back to a proto-form with this meaning. There is a different form for heart in Manambu and other languages anyway."

"Heart" is Staalsen's (1969) gloss for what really means "mind, feelings"
or the like, hence my use of it in a sentence which was about Staalsen's transccriptions. Not unprecedented, for example Edgar Suter and my (2017) paper about Kamula-Elevala River languages has two reconstructions, one like this one and one meaning actual physical heart, and Mountain Ok draws the same distinction with reflexes of /*mbumbuɾ/ sometimes glossed as "heart".

"Lexical similarities between Kwoma and Manambu, and those between Kwoma and Yalaku are due to 'intensive lexical diffusion' (in the sense used by Heath in his classic paper)."

I have extensive reconstructions of both Proto-Ndu and proto-Ma (Kwoma
etc.) and based upon these I emphatically disagree. These and the Tama group (which incidentally includes Chenapian-Wogamusin) form a Middle Sepik subgroup of Sepik River. But looking forward to your arguments to the contrary.

Tim

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 10:17 PM, Aikhenvald, Alexandra < alexandra.aikhenvald at jcu.edu.au> wrote:

> Dear Tim
>
> Laycock is inaccurate in more than one way; it is a dangerous source 
> to quote.
>
> There is a process of vowel reduction in possessive constructions such 
> as 'as (bilong) diwai' (mew mi), which I described at length; there is 
> of course some variation between speakers of Manambu.
>
> The proto-Ndu phonology and reconstruction remains a matter of debate.
> What for for 'heart' do you have in mind? Manambu mawul (Yalaku mauri, 
> etc) cannot possibly go back to a proto-form with this meaning. There 
> is a different form for heart in Manambu and other languages anyway.
>
> Kwoma (and Kwoma-Nukuma in general) is/are not related to Ndu - as 
> discussed in my 2008 grammar; then in the 2009 paper in 
> Anthropological linguistics. Lexical similarities between Kwoma and 
> Manambu, and those between Kwoma and Yalaku are due to 'intensive 
> lexical diffusion' (in the sense used by Heath in his classic paper). 
> I will be writing about this before too long, putting all the 
> available data together (I am very fortunate in that I am working 
> rather closely with Ross Bowden who is now writing an ethnography of 
> the Yalaku; he calls them Kaunga, as the Kwoma/Bangwis do). Not sure what 'board' you are referring to.
>
> Sasha
>
> Alexandra Y. Aikhenvald, PhD, DLitt, FQAAS, FAHA Distinguished 
> Professor and Australian Laureate Fellow Director of the Language and 
> Culture Research Centre James Cook University PO Box 6811, Cairns, 
> Queensland 4870, Australia mobile 0400 305315, office 61-7-42321117 
> fax 61-7-4232 1880 http://www.aikhenvaldlinguistics.com/
> http://research.jcu.edu.au/lcrc
>
> How Gender Shapes the World
> By Alexandra Y. Aikhenvald
> Now available from Oxford University Press
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PapuanLanguages <papuanlanguages-bounces at anu.edu.au> On Behalf 
> Of Timothy Usher
> Sent: Thursday, 29 March 2018 2:56 PM
> To: Papuan languages discussion list <papuanlanguages at anu.edu.au>
> Subject: Re: [PapuanLanguages] Corrections to the Ndu data
>
> Dear Alexandra,
>
> How on earth are these corrections to my message? I was simply quoting 
> the sources and arranged them into an etymology. Are my quotes 
> inaccurate? Are my etymologies wrong? I did not say that Laycock or 
> anyone else quoted is 100% reliable – that's why we look for as many 
> sources as we can – and of course I'm aware that there is a difference 
> between the accuracy of Laycock and that of someone such as yourself 
> who writes a phonology and a grammar of a particular languages. That would be why I'm not just using Laycock, no?
>
> "/mɑw mj/ is incorrect: the form in Manambu is mew mi (e=schwa), in 
> Yalaku it is mow mi."
>
> This vowel is given as <a> in your (2008: 670) vocabulary – "*maw base 
> (n.)*".
> Your pages (22-23) describe the sound system and drawn a distinction 
> between all three vowels /a: a ə/, and the examples of /ə/ presented 
> in this section are given with <ə> throughout your (pp. 665-675) vocabulary.
> That is why I quoted you with /maw/,
>
> The reason, incidentally, for the reconstruction of Ndu /*ɑː/ in "heart"
> is because Staalsen's (1969: 76) Iatmul forms [ma:wul maʔawutn] seem 
> to mandate it. Perhaps this point of proto-Ndu phonology can be debated.
>
> "With regard to the Kwoma data - the transcription looks peculiar. 
> Better stick to Ross Bowden's transcription - this is the best and the 
> most reliable source published so far."
>
> As shown, my form and gloss were drawn from Bowden's dictionary, and 
> the transcription is based upon his phonology as described therein. 
> Bowden
> (1997: 136-137) gives <*mu*> and on page xxx he writes "*u* voiced 
> high back rounded vowel (*as 'u' in 'put'*) in contrastto "*uw* (as in 
> huwu,
> cook) to *'oo' in 'woo'*." So, how is my transcription "peculiar"? You 
> say his work is "the best and most reliable" in contrast to my quote 
> without checking to see that they are exactly the same thing.:)
>
> Alexandra, in your (2008: 595-600,) you argue at some length that 
> Kwoma and Manambu and the Ndu family are not genetically related, but 
> resemblances are due solely to loans. Is that still your position? 
> That might be a good topic for the board.
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 9:17 PM, Aikhenvald, Alexandra < 
> alexandra.aikhenvald at jcu.edu.au> wrote:
>
> > Dear colleagues
> >
> > Some corrections to Timothy Usher's message are in order. I trust 
> > you all have received my paper (2015!) on mawul and related terms in 
> > Manambu (Yalaku - wrongly called by Laycock 'Yelogyu'; speakers 
> > laugh at him for
> > that) has mauri, similar meanings, but not quite).
> >
> > Manambu, Yelogu, Ambulas /mɑw mj/ "tree stump" (Layock 1965: 160) - 
> > Laycock is not a reliable source as it is full of mistakes (you only 
> > need to see what he says about the Yalaku elder he had worked with!).
> > /mɑw mj/ is incorrect: the form in Manambu is mew mi (e=schwa), in 
> > Yalaku it is mow mi.
> >
> > The Ambulas data need to be checked with what we have in a large 
> > dictionary.
> >
> > With regard to the Kwoma data - the transcription looks peculiar.
> > Better stick to Ross Bowden's transcription - this is the best and 
> > the most reliable source published so far.
> >
> >
> > Regards
> > Sasha
> > Alexandra Y. Aikhenvald, PhD, DLitt, FQAAS, FAHA Distinguished 
> > Professor and Australian Laureate Fellow Director of the Language 
> > and Culture Research Centre James Cook University PO Box 6811, 
> > Cairns, Queensland 4870, Australia mobile 0400 305315, office 
> > 61-7-42321117 fax 61-7-4232 1880 
> > http://www.aikhenvaldlinguistics.com/
> > http://research.jcu.edu.au/lcrc
> >
> > How Gender Shapes the World
> > By Alexandra Y. Aikhenvald
> > Now available from Oxford University Press
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: PapuanLanguages <papuanlanguages-bounces at anu.edu.au> On Behalf 
> > Of Timothy Usher
> > Sent: Thursday, 29 March 2018 2:02 PM
> > To: Papuan languages discussion list <papuanlanguages at anu.edu.au>
> > Subject: Re: [PapuanLanguages] extensions of 'tree base'
> >
> > Sorry, the character <ɐ> went misisng from those for whatever reason 
> > –
> > corrected:
> >
> > Ma /*mʷɨ/
> > Kwoma /mʊ/ "1. foundation; base; bottom (e.g. of hill, tree). 2. 
> > stem (of plant). 3. the ground, the earth. 4. origin; cause (e.g. of 
> > an
> illness).
> > 5.meaning. 6. basis; justification (e.g. for something said). 7. 
> > rear
> (e.g.
> > of a canoe). 8. (song) left (side)" (Bowden 1997: 136) Mende 
> > /taβa-mu/ "upper arm (it is used to describe the depth of hole)."
> > (Nozawa 2006: 73)
> >
> > Ndu /*mɑːwɨ/
> > Manambu /maw/ "base" (Aikhenvald 2008: 670.) Iatmul /mau/ "head of tree"
> > (Jendraschek 2007: 18) Maprik /mɐwu tɑmbɐ/ "upper arm" (Kundama, 
> > Sapayé and Wilson 1987: 50) Wosera-Mamu /mɑwu/ "tree base" (Ambia, 
> > Sisikila and Wilson
> > 1991: 19) Wosera-Kamu-K /mɐwu-ndu/ "head of feast" (Wilson 1996: 14) 
> > Manambu, Yelogu, Ambulas /mɑw mj/ "tree stump" (Layock 1965: 160)
> >
> > Ndu /*mɑːwɨl[ɨ]/
> > Manambu /mawul/ "something inside something else, bone marrow, core, 
> > pith (of a tree), feelings" (Aikhenvald 2008: 670) Iatmul /mauk/ 
> > "heart", /mauɾ-aβa/ "chest" (Jendraschek 2007: 18) Maprik /mɐwulɨ/ 
> > "mind, thought, thinking, willingness, wish, liking", /mɐwulɨ jɐ/ 
> > "like" (Kundama, SapayŽ and Wilson 1987: 15) Wingei /mɐwulɨ/ "like", 
> > /mɐwulɨ sɐwulɨ/ "1) love 2) be happy" (Kambu, Kerry and Yuanigi 1992:
> > 16) Wosera-Mamu /mɐwulɨ/ "mind thought, wish", /mɐwulɨ tɐwulɨ/ 
> > "rejoice, be happy" (Ambia, Sisikila and Wilson 1991: 19) 
> > Wosera-Kamu-J /mɐwulɨ// "mind, heart", /mɐwulɨ sɐwulɨ/ "love" 
> > (Neiman and Wilson 1992: 11) Wosera-Kamu-K /mɐwulɨ/ "thoughts, 
> > wish", /mɐwulɨ
> tɐwulɨ/ "joy, happiness"
> > (Wilson 1996: 14)
> > Boiken /̕məl̪ə-mbi/ "seat of emotions" (Freudenburg and Freudenburg 1974:
> > 111)
> > Hanga Hundi /mauli/ "belly"(Wendell 1994: 3) Iatmul /mɐwk/ "heart"
> > (Laycock 1965: 156)
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 7:50 PM, Timothy Usher 
> > <timothyusher at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > "Interesting! In Manambu, a Ndu language from the Sepik area, the 
> > > word mow for tree base is used in the meaning of 'as' (Tok Pisin), 
> > > that is, the basis /reason for anything, and also the end of an 
> > > event,
> or a story.
> > > Yalaku, a related language, has the same root with the same meaning."
> > >
> > > Ma /*mʷɨ/
> > > Kwoma /mʊ/ "1. foundation; base; bottom (e.g. of hill, tree). 2.
> > > stem (of plant). 3. the ground, the earth. 4. origin; cause (e.g. 
> > > of an
> > illness).
> > > 5.meaning. 6. basis; justification (e.g. for something said). 7.
> > > rear
> > (e.g.
> > > of a canoe). 8. (song) left (side)" (Bowden 1997: 136) Mende 
> > > /taβa-mu/ "upper arm (it is used to describe the depth of hole)."
> > > (Nozawa 2006: 73)
> > >
> > > Ndu /*mɑːwɨ/
> > > Manambu /maw/ "base" (Aikhenvald 2008: 670.) Iatmul /mau/ "head of 
> > > tree" (Jendraschek 2007: 18) Maprik /mwu tɑmb/ "upper arm" 
> > > (Kundama, SapayŽ and Wilson 1987: 50) Wosera-Mamu /mɑwu/ "tree 
> > > base" (Ambia, Sisikila and Wilson 1991: 19) Wosera-Kamu-K /mwu-ndu/ "head of feast"
> > > (Wilson 1996: 14) Manambu, Yelogu, Ambulas /mɑw mj/ "tree stump"
> > > (Layock 1965: 160)
> > >
> > > Ndu /*mɑːwɨl[ɨ]/
> > > Manambu /mawul/ "something inside something else, bone marrow, 
> > > core, pith (of a tree), feelings" (Aikhenvald 2008: 670) Iatmul 
> > > /mauk/ "heart", /mauɾ-aβa/ "chest" (Jendraschek 2007: 18) Maprik 
> > > /mwulɨ/ "mind, thought, thinking, willingness, wish, liking", /mwulɨ j/ "like"
> > > (Kundama, SapayŽ and Wilson 1987: 15) Wingei /mwulɨ/ "like", mwulɨ 
> > > swulɨ" "1) love 2) be happy" (Kambu, Kerry and Yuanigi 1992: 16) 
> > > Wosera-Mamu /mwulɨ/ "mind thought, wish", /mwulɨ twulɨ/ "rejoice, 
> > > be happy" (Ambia, Sisikila and Wilson 1991: 19) Wosera-Kamu-J 
> > > /mwulɨ// "mind, heart", /mwulɨ swulɨ/ "love" (Neiman and Wilson 
> > > 1992: 11) Wosera-Kamu-K /mwulɨ/ "thoughts, wish", /mwulɨ twulɨ/ "joy, happiness"
> > > (Wilson 1996: 14)
> > > Boiken /̕məl̪ə-mbi/ "seat of emotions" (Freudenburg and 
> > > Freudenburg
> 1974:
> > > 111)
> > > Hanga Hundi /mauli/ "belly"(Wendell 1994: 3) Iatmul /mwk/ "heart"
> > > (Laycock 1965: 156)
> > >
> > > On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 4:45 AM, Aikhenvald, Alexandra < 
> > > alexandra.aikhenvald at jcu.edu.au> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Dear Dr Döhler
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Interesting! In Manambu, a Ndu language from the Sepik area, the 
> > >> word mow for tree base is used in the meaning of 'as' (Tok 
> > >> Pisin), that is, the basis /reason for anything, and also the end 
> > >> of an event, or a
> > story.
> > >> Yalaku, a related language, has the same root with the same meaning.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> The term mawul which I roughly translate as 'mind' means 'pith of 
> > >> a sago tree'; see the attached paper on its many meanings.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Best wishes
> > >>
> > >> Sascha
> > >>
> > >> Alexandra Y. Aikhenvald, PhD, DLitt, FQAAS, FAHA
> > >>
> > >> Distinguished Professor and Australian Laureate Fellow
> > >>
> > >> Director of the Language and Culture Research Centre
> > >>
> > >> James Cook University
> > >>
> > >> PO Box 6811, Cairns, Queensland 4870, Australia
> > >>
> > >> mobile 0400 305315, office 61-7-42321117
> > >>
> > >> fax 61-7-4232 1880
> > >>
> > >> https://www.jcu.edu.au/college-of-arts-society-and-education
> > >> /social-sciences/our-staff/college-of-arts,-society-and-education
> > >>
> > >> http://www.aikhenvaldlinguistics.com/
> > >>
> > >> http://research.jcu.edu.au/lcrc
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> [Cover for  How Gender Shapes the World]<https://global.oup.com/ 
> > >> academic/product/how-gender-shapes-the-world-9780198723752?
> > >> q=how%20gender%20shapes%20world&lang=en&cc=gb>
> > >>
> > >> How Gender Shapes the World
> > >>
> > >> By Alexandra Y. Aikhenvald
> > >>
> > >> Now available from Oxford University 
> > >> Press<https://global.oup.com/a 
> > >> cademic/product/how-gender-shapes-the-world-9780198723752?q=
> > >> how%20gender%20shapes%20world&lang=en&cc=gb>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ________________________________
> > >> From: PapuanLanguages <papuanlanguages-bounces at anu.edu.au> on 
> > >> behalf of Christian Döhler <christian.doehler at uni-koeln.de>
> > >> Sent: Wednesday, 28 March 2018 9:33 PM
> > >> To: PapuanLanguages at anu.edu.au
> > >> Subject: [PapuanLanguages] extensions of 'tree base'
> > >>
> > >> Dear Papuanists,
> > >>
> > >> I am working on two languages in Southern New Guinea: Bine 
> > >> (Eastern
> > >> Trans-Fly) and Komnzo (Yam). I have two related questions that 
> > >> have to do with the word /zfth /in Komnzo and /iŋre /in Bine. 
> > >> Both of these mean 'base of a tree'.
> > >>
> > >>  1. I noticed that in Bine and Komnzo rivers are sometimes
> > >>     conceptualised by invoking a tree metaphor. In Komnzo, you 
> > >> can
> refer
> > >>     to a rivermouth as /ŋars zfth /which means literally 'river (tree)
> > >>     base', while you can refer to the creeks and tributaries that feed
> > >>     into the river as /ŋars tuti /'river branches' or 'river twigs'.
> > >>     Hence, a river is conceptualised as if it grows from the coast
> > >>     towards the interior, as one can see it nicely on maps. This
> reminds
> > >>     me of Nicholas Burenhult's work on Jahai landscape terminology,
> > >>     where rivers are mapped onto the human body. I am trying to 
> > >> find
> out
> > >>     how widespread the tree pattern is in New Guinea or elsewhere.
> > >>  2. The word /zfth /'tree base' or 'plant base', i.e. that part of a
> > >>     plant directly above the ground, can be used for a range of other
> > >>     meanings in the languages of Southern New Guinea. In some
> languages
> > >>     of the region, it can mean 'reason'. This is similar to the use of
> > >>     'root' in English in 'the root of all evil' (which works for my
> > >>     native German too). In other languages, the word can mean
> 'origin',
> > >>     'clan', or 'family'. I am interested where else in New Guinea this
> > >>     pattern of colexification is found.
> > >>
> > >> Any comments on different patterns in the languages you know 
> > >> about, or references to relevant publications are most welcome.
> > >>
> > >> Very Best
> > >>
> > >> Christian
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Dr. Christian Döhler
> > >> Institut für Linguistik
> > >> Allgemeine Sprachwissenschaft
> > >> Universität zu Köln
> > >> D-50923 Köln
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> PapuanLanguages mailing list
> > >> PapuanLanguages at anu.edu.au
> > >> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/papuanlanguages
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> PapuanLanguages mailing list
> > >> PapuanLanguages at anu.edu.au
> > >> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/papuanlanguages
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
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> >
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