[LINK] bin Laden is dead

[Karl Auer]

On Wed, 2011-05-04 at 01:07 +1000, Darrell Burkey wrote:
> Karl Auer states:
> 
> > If we discard the principles that make us different from people 
> > like bin Laden, is there really any point fighting him?
> 
> Bold words made from the safety of your little patch of paradise.

Ad hominem - why bother?

>  OBL openly stated he would continue to kill and was actively involved
> in doing so.

Plenty of people *say* a lot of things. We don't stick them in jail just
for that. Civilised countries (a group that does not include the US) do
not kill them either. And before we stick them in jail, we make sure
that they actually did do the things they are accused of doing - even if
they accuse themselves.

>  I wonder if that included your family if you would still be of the
> same opinion and willing to take responsibility for that while
> retaining your moral stance?

Perhaps I would not - I hope so. If I did not, I hope that the
Government, the law, would protect others from my petty vengeance.

If we make everything personal and deal always from within our own
little set of interests and emotional needs, we will be savage forever.

Government, strength in unity, division of state and church, division of
executive and judiciary, the rule of law, equality under the law, guilty
until proven innocent, habeas corpus and a whole bunch of other things
have taken us *thousands of years* to achieve. Every one was built from
tiny bricks of progress, two steps forward and one step back; each was
hewn from that seemingly impregnable wall of barbarity, cruelty and
entrenched self-interest that still today blocks all progress for most
of the world.

These are principles that are most important when the going gets tough.
There's no problem upholding them in easy times.
 
> I've always enjoyed your very intelligent take on things and you make
> excellent points so thanks for that. I don't know why but I simply
> can't get over thinking about the people on the hijacked planes who
> called their families to say goodbye knowing they were about to die as
> they flew in to buildings. In that context nothing you say is having
> any meaning to me at all.

If you are unable, by virtue of being overcome with emotion, to evaluate
arguments in the light of reason, then this discussion is indeed
pointless. But your inability to cogitate does not affect my argument.

People die every day. The number killed by terrorists - the number that
*could* be killed by terrorists! - is insignificant compared with those
killed by poverty, by disease, or even just by the motor car.

9/11 was barely a blip in the body count. Fifty thousand people die each
year on US roads - very roughly a thousand a week. Globally, it's about
1.3 million *per year*. Where is your righteous anger about that? Does
the thought of all those tearful phone calls from emergency rooms all
over the world also incapacitate your ability to reason?

It is precisely when emotion is at its highest that the rule of law, the
consideration of Government and the restraint of our leaders are most
needed.

> I have no reason to believe OBL was murdered and do think it was
> appropriate to capture him by any means possible.

It's the "any means possible" that we disagree on.

Bin Laden was killed by the US Government - but that doesn't make it
either right or legal. Remember Nixon? "I'm the president saying you can
do it, so that makes it legal"? He was wrong.

>  He put himself in that very dangerous position so he can take
> responsibility for the outcome. Allowing self-confessed murderers who
> openly state they will continue killing to hide is a risk I'm quite
> surprised you are willing to take.

I certainly never advocated "allowing self-confessed murderers [...] to
hide". What I am saying is that if we allow the end to justify the
means, we are no better than those we profess to oppose.

Regards, K.

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer at biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/                   +61-428-957160 (mob)

GPG fingerprint: DA41 51B1 1481 16E1 F7E2 B2E9 3007 14ED 5736 F687
Old fingerprint: B386 7819 B227 2961 8301 C5A9 2EBC 754B CD97 0156
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